tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post807814483293609234..comments2024-03-28T17:44:07.653+00:00Comments on TPQ: Too Uncomfortable A Conversation?AMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-29012981057332758582016-10-24T05:47:56.762+01:002016-10-24T05:47:56.762+01:00Christy,
Regardless of how you perceive it, it IS...Christy,<br /><br />Regardless of how you perceive it, it IS how the loyalists think. Paisley et al whipped up and fed the fear that the IRA was about to rise up and overthrow the state.<br /><br />The Brits have no fear of having dirty hands either. You don't run an Empire through kind words and deeds.Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-75638874976729009632016-10-22T14:15:12.159+01:002016-10-22T14:15:12.159+01:00Steve
Now you are going into the realm of self-de...Steve<br /><br />Now you are going into the realm of self-delusion. In the Brits mind they have clean hands. I am only speaking about reality.Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07529990561635818286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-12522601267029052016-10-22T09:53:03.735+01:002016-10-22T09:53:03.735+01:00Christy,
In their mind it wasn't.Christy,<br /><br />In their mind it wasn't.Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-55134796645879641832016-10-22T00:22:17.246+01:002016-10-22T00:22:17.246+01:00The IRA were nowhere to be seen in the late 1960s ...The IRA were nowhere to be seen in the late 1960s -it was peaceful civil rights marchers versus violent unionists/loyalists.<br /><br />The rest of your arguments doesnt change who controlled the loyalists.Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07529990561635818286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-15764995928360213402016-10-21T22:11:46.697+01:002016-10-21T22:11:46.697+01:00Christy,
"That was my point, Unionist/Loyali...Christy,<br /><br />"That was my point, Unionist/Loyalist leaders used false and exaggerated fears to attack and stop peaceful civil rights marches and more. They used fear to justify their own violence against peaceful nationalist marchers. And as I point out above the IRA carried out atrocities that then played into the Unionist/Loyalist narrative. Unionist/Loyalists fears were Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-44659966845224273982016-10-20T10:43:16.603+01:002016-10-20T10:43:16.603+01:00Steve
That was my point, Unionist/Loyalist leader...Steve<br /><br />That was my point, Unionist/Loyalist leaders used false and exaggerated fears to attack and stop peaceful civil rights marches and more. They used fear to justify their own violence against peaceful nationalist marchers. And as I point out above the IRA carried out atrocities that then played into the Unionist/Loyalist narrative. Unionist/Loyalists fears were self-created and Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07529990561635818286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-67329044709958861952016-10-19T11:31:49.166+01:002016-10-19T11:31:49.166+01:00Christy,
Fear is a powerful motivator, it is also...Christy,<br /><br />Fear is a powerful motivator, it is also easy to be cynical with hindsight. From my perspective loyalism had fuck all leadership of note but neither were they told the whole truth of the matter. Republicans were far more educated, political astute and imbued with a sense of injustice more than any loyalist ever had.<br /><br />And I'm NOT a fucking loyalist. Getting sick Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-76618954238290041942016-10-19T09:59:49.698+01:002016-10-19T09:59:49.698+01:00AM,
Not sure about your view that Loyalism should ...AM,<br />Not sure about your view that Loyalism should be looked at in similar terms. To me all it was, was an armed and murderous state sponsored wing, deliberately kept publicly at arms-length from the British establishment and by the British establishment, to avoid any unnecessary publicity that could detract from their own anti-IRA propaganda war, but fully controlled and directed by them, Niallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06013400649117430986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-20633932493759118162016-10-18T22:05:43.056+01:002016-10-18T22:05:43.056+01:00Yeah the loyalists are probably self-reflecting or...Yeah the loyalists are probably self-reflecting or justifying rather than trying to communicate. It is better they do document their reasoning to remove having to speculate about it. I am pretty skeptical about anything loyalists have to say but no way should APRN not run with the article - its a crap paper so no great loss really. Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07529990561635818286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-83536014325297292222016-10-18T13:49:52.846+01:002016-10-18T13:49:52.846+01:00Christy,
I am not sure that loyalism is primarily...Christy,<br /><br />I am not sure that loyalism is primarily concerned with communicating something to nationalists as much as it is engaged in some sort of self-reflection. <br /><br />David Ervine is an interesting example because if I remember rightly he claimed it was Bloody Friday that led to him joining the UVF. The UVF predated the Bloody Friday bombings as it did the formation of the AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-63213338356966675312016-10-18T12:28:23.253+01:002016-10-18T12:28:23.253+01:00AM
If there is evidence that Loyalists wanted to ...AM<br /><br />If there is evidence that Loyalists wanted to communicate anything to Nationalists other than their hatred and supremacy then lets hear it. I think David Irvine about summed up the reality for most loyalists in the 1970s -he listened to the wrong people who burned him as soon as he was no longer useful to them. I think his premature death was a loss to all of us but most of all toChristy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07529990561635818286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-17760989378209170162016-10-18T09:29:51.752+01:002016-10-18T09:29:51.752+01:00That should be a seventeen year old girl not a yea...That should be a seventeen year old girl not a year old girl.AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-63627098114694103072016-10-18T09:27:38.464+01:002016-10-18T09:27:38.464+01:00Niall,
much of the early analysis of the Provisio...Niall,<br /><br />much of the early analysis of the Provisionals held that they were the physical expression of an unbroken lineage which existed long before 1969 that sought Irish unity above all else. That view of the Provisional IRA was based on the work of authors specialising in the IRA before the creation of the PIRA.<br /><br />Now we sort of know different. Post 1969 Northern events have AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-16741583325722838842016-10-18T09:05:42.992+01:002016-10-18T09:05:42.992+01:00Loyalism is a physical expression of Unionist sect...Loyalism is a physical expression of Unionist sectarianism and racism which existed long before 1969. As for collusion between it and the British security services. I prefer to replace 'collusion' with 'controlled directing'. And as for Unionist Loyalism itself, the least said the better....defending their communities my arse!<br />Niallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06013400649117430986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-24640414922312738202016-10-18T08:39:58.189+01:002016-10-18T08:39:58.189+01:00Christy,
I doubt many from our station in life ha...Christy,<br /><br />I doubt many from our station in life have hearts that bleed for loyalism. But that should never preclude understanding. And understanding should be an intellectual exercise leading to analysis rather than an emotive one leading to empathy. Nor do I think we should see understanding as being presented as something that would have changed the dynamics of the situation on the AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-67216781806250153102016-10-17T22:44:40.012+01:002016-10-17T22:44:40.012+01:00I can't say my heart is bleeding for loyalists...I can't say my heart is bleeding for loyalists nor do I agree that if only nationalists understood them better things would not have gone the way they did. I understood them all too clearly. Many of their victims were late night stragglers or otherwise innocents who thought nobody would not touch them because they caused no harm to anyone -the graveyards are full of victims who thought they Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07529990561635818286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-13928521790334283682016-10-17T22:11:21.934+01:002016-10-17T22:11:21.934+01:00GTM,
Collusion was always going to happen when yo...GTM,<br /><br />Collusion was always going to happen when you had paramilitaries and the police coming from the same community and fighting a common enemy, one 'constrained'(alledgedly) by law and the other not. I was never in any organisation but even I was reading Sinn Fein documents that had been nicked and photocopied long before any ceasefire was announced. Not hard to work out they Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-71792145209340974172016-10-17T19:36:45.569+01:002016-10-17T19:36:45.569+01:00Steve, David - thanks for your comments. These are...Steve, David - thanks for your comments. These are the sorts of robust and healthy conversations we need to have to move things forward. Sadly it seems that SF are merely paying lip service to the concept of 'Uncomfortable Conversations.'<br />The agenda being pushed is all about collusion, which of course happened and which needs to be examined in the context of both loyalist and gtmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01067825672793663792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-65849011574391678522016-10-17T19:35:59.766+01:002016-10-17T19:35:59.766+01:00David,
a very sober observation.
I imagine there...David,<br /><br />a very sober observation.<br /><br />I imagine there had to be a dialectic at play which is not captured in the idea that armed loyalism emerged solely out of a functional and ideological need to dominate, control and kill the nationalists. No doubt those ideas were in the mix. But it would be a very strange and inadequate explanation that ignored the motivation of defence. The AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-88643321477485219182016-10-17T16:57:40.661+01:002016-10-17T16:57:40.661+01:00Although I'll never feel anything other than r...Although I'll never feel anything other than republicanism was just and necessary I must admit my attitude towards the loyalists is changing. Since my adolescence my thoughts on loyalists was how could they acquiesce and support such blatant and sectarian laws which resulted in hatred. I still feel the loyalists could have been more demanding of their leaders to combat sectarianism I must Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120277877011965034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-26468389387024054592016-10-17T09:21:55.488+01:002016-10-17T09:21:55.488+01:00Powerful stuff. We always felt we were under attac...Powerful stuff. We always felt we were under attack from the Provos from when I was a wean, and if they won, we'd all be exterminated.Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.com