tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post8023975333464317781..comments2024-03-29T15:14:51.289+00:00Comments on TPQ: Ulster Loyalism, Flag Protests & the failure of zero sum politicsAMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comBlogger145125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-39069546014142822352013-04-20T10:33:15.805+01:002013-04-20T10:33:15.805+01:00Ulster Loyalism, Flag Protests & the failure ...Ulster Loyalism, Flag Protests & the failure <br /><br />Feel te love,<br /><br /><br /><i>I feel betrayed by MMCG because we were part of the same army. Pearse Doherty and the likes don’t generate those same negative emotions of anger in me.</i><br /> <br />I think many will identify with that sentiment<br />AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-81007324480648301872013-02-24T23:14:04.504+00:002013-02-24T23:14:04.504+00:00Anthony; I honestly despair of convincing loyalist...Anthony; I honestly despair of convincing loyalists of the merits of working class unity - and I'm bored trying to convince myself they can be convinced. <br /><br />Last year (or maybe two years ago) the International Brigade committee erected a plaque on the house that was the birthplace of Liam Tumlinson. All was well. Brigadista Tumlinson was the pride of east Belfast, an heroic Belfast Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788284349622223129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-70274964005758954712013-02-24T20:19:16.107+00:002013-02-24T20:19:16.107+00:00Belfast Bookworm,
I think the question you pose i...Belfast Bookworm,<br /><br />I think the question you pose is apt. Nobody has yet come up with a way of enlisting the support of the Unionist working class. All the Marxist class analysis has proved futile. <br /><br />Unfortunately the constitutional issue has been one nut that supposed class unity has failed to crack.<br />AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-22997746953227864812013-01-24T14:36:42.940+00:002013-01-24T14:36:42.940+00:00Reply to Alec,
To be fair I dont think the 'p...Reply to Alec,<br /><br />To be fair I dont think the 'protestant working class' are the only ones who identify more with religion and cultural. The reality is most people in the North identify with this hence the GFA etc.<br /><br />I can't speak on behalf of the rest of left but certainly anarchists dont believe everything can be reduced to class. For example in the latest Irish Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-65778302457241758102013-01-22T18:38:48.575+00:002013-01-22T18:38:48.575+00:00James,
some of the people who got involved could ...James,<br /><br /><i>some of the people who got involved could be described as self serving psychopaths, sociopaths and undesirables with nothing else to offer ... Often in times of war history teaches us that a psychopath often becomes a hero, in times of peace he becomes a psychopath.</i><br /><br />Hasn’t been an army yet that was free of the type. A more important question would seem to be AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-82199287508671962262013-01-22T18:12:11.961+00:002013-01-22T18:12:11.961+00:00AM,
I think you are spot on here. Class reduction...AM,<br /><br />I think you are spot on here. Class reductionism, to use your own term, is a form of false consciousness afflicting many on the left. <br /><br />It appears to me that the protestant working class people identify more with religious and cultural markers than with class. <br /><br />I would refer to the famous public debate between Connolly and Walker on this very issue. Walker, Alechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12666926156148775042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-55486998415256909172013-01-22T17:40:56.228+00:002013-01-22T17:40:56.228+00:00AM said...
Experience is a good teacher and w...AM said...<br /><br /> Experience is a good teacher and what it has taught thus far is that there will be no united working class in the North that can manage to jump the constitutional fence. We have heard the critique of class reductionism so often that it surprises me somewhat that people think a class should carry an ideology around on its back like a car does a number plate (that is an AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-54874187054783108082013-01-20T09:00:13.725+00:002013-01-20T09:00:13.725+00:00Frankie; fair points. But if I was a community wor...Frankie; fair points. But if I was a community worker in a Protestant community I wouldn't be trying to 'unite the divide'. This shared history/future nonsense isn't working - they're (community relations council, various city councils, ofmdfm) are throwing money at it and apart from a few junkets, no real progress has been made. <br /><br />I'd be working to show how Belfast Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788284349622223129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-65007940686036335392013-01-19T22:30:40.664+00:002013-01-19T22:30:40.664+00:00Something else the PUL community are pissed off wi...Something else the PUL community are pissed off with (and have been for a very long time). They have no real sense of a culture or identity. The Scottish, Welsh and English see themselves as British but each of them have their own seperate identities. Take out the 12th July Loyal Order marches and there isn't much else for the PUL community in the north to celebrate (thats on the frankiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00452424095829736700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-48464722073006655442013-01-19T11:17:55.320+00:002013-01-19T11:17:55.320+00:00Frankie; Jim Wilson has to be the first person in ...Frankie; Jim Wilson has to be the first person in the history of Ireland to say 'we started it'. I think he could've bitten off his Tongue once he did though. <br /><br />But he says he is a community worker which indicates he is being paid to do a job. Why isn't he doing it? A community workers job is to develop their community, to educate, build capacity and empower. This Belfast Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788284349622223129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-10598551587506991742013-01-19T10:06:40.829+00:002013-01-19T10:06:40.829+00:00Belfast Bookworm,
it never ceases to bemuse or ev...Belfast Bookworm,<br /><br />it never ceases to bemuse or even amuse that those who never fought it can claim to have won it.AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-23284302193917322002013-01-19T00:16:37.329+00:002013-01-19T00:16:37.329+00:00Bookworm, if I was from the PUL community, I call ...Bookworm, if I was from the PUL community, I call what you said <i>an honest appraisal</i>. They are smarting from their own apathy and lashing out. <br /><br />Bookworm you said you have a problem trying to get your head around the protests/violence. <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21021695" rel="nofollow">Jim Wilson </a> has the same problem.frankiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00452424095829736700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-66451403877454068042013-01-18T22:53:10.871+00:002013-01-18T22:53:10.871+00:00Frankie; 'He did have a very valid point when ...Frankie; 'He did have a very valid point when he said the PUL's anger is misdirected at the Alliance party. It should be at SF/SDLP.'<br /><br />Maybe, for the flag issue. But in general their anger should be directed at their own political leaders surely? If they're feeling disenfranchised, polarised etc etc then they should be making their own reps accountable. <br /><br />If I Belfast Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788284349622223129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-44388701950969996292013-01-18T22:19:35.497+00:002013-01-18T22:19:35.497+00:00Well thank God and his holy mother for that - Larr...Well thank God and his holy mother for that - Larry I mean. I thought all had been lost!<br /><br />I agree with you regarding people needing breathing space. Our people were war weary and who could blame us? <br /><br />I'd disagree with you though re people believing SF won. Certainly the 'old hands' who know the craic won't say this, but the new shinners do and I think it'sBelfast Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788284349622223129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-74157886236160089292013-01-18T22:15:31.851+00:002013-01-18T22:15:31.851+00:00mackers
'Larry will no more vote SF than I wi...mackers<br /><br />'Larry will no more vote SF than I will. He is yanking the chains to get a rise'.<br /><br />How could you!! i feel so naked and exposed!!!larry hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837849309156970989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-6833666554924463302013-01-18T22:12:33.163+00:002013-01-18T22:12:33.163+00:00I heard Gerry Kelly's gaff too Bookworm. At l...I heard Gerry Kelly's gaff too Bookworm. At least he was telling the truth (can't slate him for that). He did have a very valid point when he said the PUL's anger is misdirected at the Alliance party. It should be at SF/SDLP.<br /> <br />And when Nolan asked him directly as to why Robinson & McGuinness haven't stood shoulder to shoulder publicly and denounced the violencefrankiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00452424095829736700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-80002802029405413272013-01-18T22:01:54.706+00:002013-01-18T22:01:54.706+00:00Belfast Bookworm,
I think people were glad the wa...Belfast Bookworm,<br /><br />I think people were glad the war had ended. It allowed them to breathe a little more freely. I don't know if people really believe SF won. They do feel they made significant progress within the Northern state. Even some of the most loyal Shinners have been commenting that what is in place now is not what was fought for, but they will stick with it as it is AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-45481630817323302302013-01-18T21:54:42.187+00:002013-01-18T21:54:42.187+00:00Anthony; 'how little republicanism got out of ...Anthony; 'how little republicanism got out of the GFA'<br /><br />But you have to hand it to them (SF) at how well they've played it out. People out there genuinely believe republicans 'won' thanks to the spin the shinners have worked. <br /><br />They've ((SF) painted an illusion of equality, justice etc - basically the crumbs off the tables of the powerheads, and Belfast Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788284349622223129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-48311817434478416072013-01-18T21:36:23.748+00:002013-01-18T21:36:23.748+00:00Belfast Bookworm,
just watched a recording of The...Belfast Bookworm,<br /><br />just watched a recording of The View and have to agree with you. Adams was woeful in his argument about the border poll. He made Arleen Foster, May Blood and Michael McGimpsey sound astute observers. <br /><br />With him pushing it we can rest assured it is not going to happen. Why there is not one every ten years rather than allowing the Brits to decide is even AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-28223687584395621952013-01-18T21:15:23.463+00:002013-01-18T21:15:23.463+00:00I often wonder just how bad unionist political lea...I often wonder just how bad unionist political leaders can get at their own PR. <br /><br />If I was one I'd be screaming it from the rooftops that they'd won, the IRA lost and their wee country is safer than ever. <br /><br />PSF are so smart and good at PR that they've convinced their grass roots they won when they didn't and unionists are so stupid and crap at selling Belfast Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788284349622223129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-15295802514562032942013-01-18T13:52:43.059+00:002013-01-18T13:52:43.059+00:00itsjustmacker
i agree with 'feel the love'...itsjustmacker<br /><br />i agree with 'feel the love' regarding marty having had a bad political experience with SF, sure who didn't? But why continue tormenting yourself? They simply proved to be politicians like the rest of the scum.<br /><br />Water will find its own level politically in the north and through time the hun nazis simply wont count. Enjoy your life, site back and larry hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837849309156970989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-12843562371156304612013-01-18T13:06:35.496+00:002013-01-18T13:06:35.496+00:00Here's a solution about the flag. We keep the ...Here's a solution about the flag. We keep the design of the union flag but change the blue to green, red to orange and white stays white..<br /><br />It's just an idea folks..frankiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00452424095829736700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-18257750458128616152013-01-18T12:00:17.743+00:002013-01-18T12:00:17.743+00:00Mackers I dont find them interesting, young or ol...Mackers I dont find them interesting, young or old.Hearing a former leader of the IRA like MMCG talking the way he does,has me cringing for so many reasons and I find it unacceptable,to me.I feel betrayed by MMCG because we were part of the same army.Pearse Doherty and the likes dont generate those same negative emotions of anger in me.This could be due to the fact that Pearse and his likes haveFeel te lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17281999605534185574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-36164705151477482552013-01-18T09:36:02.032+00:002013-01-18T09:36:02.032+00:00Feel te love I have had no experience/dealings wit...Feel te love I have had no experience/dealings with the dup yet they disgust me as much as quisling $inn £ein, just the other side of an inept and bigoted coin, and as full of carpetbaggers as q$£."there are not many of us that sf would give a toss about" well a cara that initself should answer all your questions after all most people who get involved in politics do so because they do martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09814904389826171437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-79083678642221399502013-01-18T09:35:41.016+00:002013-01-18T09:35:41.016+00:00Feel te love I have had no experience/dealings wit...Feel te love I have had no experience/dealings with the dup yet they disgust me as much as quisling $inn £ein, just the other side of an inept and bigoted coin, and as full of carpetbaggers as q$£."there are not many of us that sf would give a toss about" well a cara that initself should answer all your questions after all most people who get involved in politics do so because they do martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09814904389826171437noreply@blogger.com