Comments on The Pensive Quill: Getting it Wrong

Nuala, Before the war, David Kelly wrote: "...

2010-08-26T22:10:55.107+01:00

Nuala,

Before the war, David Kelly wrote:

"After 12 unsuccessful years of UN supervision of disarmament, military force regrettably appears to be the only way of finally and conclusively disarming Iraq."

That seems like a pretty hawkish analysis to me, especially since he described the threat from Saddam as only "modest". He didn't change

Nuala, he just didn't impress me. I know he ...

2010-08-26T14:03:20.876+01:00

Nuala,

he just didn't impress me. I know he has been very good on some things and has campaignd well but I went that night and was disappointed.

Mackers, if I had a white flag I would wave it, in...

2010-08-26T13:49:46.072+01:00

Mackers, if I had a white flag I would wave it, instead I will just cringe and bow to your superior knowledge.

Your article was absolutely brilliant.

Nuala, http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.edu:81/swm.ht...

2010-08-26T11:54:25.638+01:00

Nuala,

http://indiamond6.ulib.iupui.edu:81/swm.html

Mackers, I do not ever attend anything at the Feil...

2010-08-26T11:04:16.502+01:00

Mackers, I do not ever attend anything at the Feile. Would be very interested in hearing what he had to say though.

Really love Moore's documentaries, thought his last one the 'Love Affair with Capitalism' was spectecular, however, I would be very interested in other people's opinion.

Nuala, and of course I did not read the piece! ...

2010-08-26T10:27:34.965+01:00

Nuala,

and of course I did not read the piece!

I recall the charges and his involvement in the debate. But I think you make a good point.
Michael Moore I am not a fan of. Were you at his West Belfast Feile contribution?

Mackers, maybe I am a little overzealous when it c...

2010-08-26T10:05:59.752+01:00

Mackers, maybe I am a little overzealous when it comes to the John Pilgers and Michael Moores of this world, but I would never apologise for that.

I appreciate the fact, that I did make it sound as though everything Pilger said is infallible.

However, on reading more of what he said in relation to Kosovo it is not as black and white as was first pointed out.
On reading

Nuala, I don't know what made Pilger opt for...

2010-08-26T06:08:11.791+01:00

Nuala,

I don't know what made Pilger opt for the view that no mass graves were found. He was not alone in questioning their existence. But he and others were so wrong. There was ample evidence of atrocities and war crime out there.

I have liked the work of Pilger myself but none are infallible.

Alfie, without fear of contradiction I doubt if an...

2010-08-25T23:44:18.751+01:00

Alfie, without fear of contradiction I doubt if anyone has presented as much evidence of injustice on a global scale as John Pilger.

For four decades he had made countless documentaries and films, highlighting injustice and corruption where ever he found it.
Why then, would someone like him want to deceive people in relation to Kosovo, what would it benefit him? What would be his

Fionnuala, Perhaps "airport-novel conspiracy...

2010-08-25T19:46:57.506+01:00

Fionnuala,

Perhaps "airport-novel conspiracy theory" is too dismissive a term to apply to the claim that David Kelly was murdered. I apologise if that seemed like a sneer. And I agree that the decision to classify his autopsy report for 70 years is suspicious. But, on balance, I still don't think there is enough evidence to suggest that he was murdered. We'll probably

Alfie, doubt Pilger was wrong! His has to be the m...

2010-08-25T15:06:29.049+01:00

Alfie, doubt Pilger was wrong! His has to be the most consistent, enduring and unshakeable voice against injustice on a global scale.

If Pilger ever says the elections in Iraq were fair and 'democratic' then I would believe it.
Until, then sorry, I will not.

Dr Kelly, had a massive gripe, he eventually realised that he had been sent to Iraq on a lie.
I do

Fionnuala, Pilger has made big mistakes in the p...

2010-08-25T13:15:02.549+01:00

Fionnuala,

Pilger has made big mistakes in the past. For example, in the "New Statesman" and elsewhere, he wrongly claimed (or implied) that no mass graves had been found in Kosovo/Serbia from the 1998-99 conflict.

With regard to the Iraqi elections, I think you have to look at their outcomes together with the testimony of independent election observers and media

Met a half a dozen young Brits in Borneo gettin re...

2010-08-25T11:16:00.060+01:00

Met a half a dozen young Brits in Borneo gettin ready for the Iraq invasion of 2003. They were eager and champing at the bit to see action. When I insisted there were no WMD's in Iraq they surrounded me in the bar insisting there ABSOLUTELY were. Young men eager for action. Wonder how they all are today, they were all quite decent young lads if I'm honest. Only hassle I had was near the

Alfie, firstly I was not finding fault with your s...

2010-08-24T22:01:42.364+01:00

Alfie, firstly I was not finding fault with your statistics, however, I don't believe you can get a more accurate source than people such as John Pilger.
If he says, the most likely death total in Iraq is around one million, then I think you could safely say that's what it is.

In relation to the 2005 elections, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians certainly though the

Yeah, I agree, Robert, it arouses suspicion to cla...

2010-08-24T21:37:24.755+01:00

Yeah, I agree, Robert, it arouses suspicion to classify Kelly's autopsy records for 70 years. It was a profoundly stupid thing for Hutton to do as it just gives fodder to conspiracy theorists. As I said, I would welcome a proper inquest (as is normal) into David Kelly's death in order to address the issues that have been raised. Nicholas Hunt himself said that he would have no problem

Just a couple of links that may be of interest of ...

2010-08-24T21:31:44.353+01:00

Just a couple of links that may be of interest of you haven't come across them before.

This is Johann Hari, who initially supported the war on Iraq and then withdrew, explaining his decision:

http://www.johannhari.com/2006/03/18/after-three-years-after-dead-why-i-was-wrong-about-iraq

And this is Bernard Henri-Lévy, who claims at least to still be on the left,

Alfie, "A number of eminent forensic patholo...

2010-08-24T19:41:46.950+01:00

Alfie,

"A number of eminent forensic pathologists have come out in support of the suicide verdict,"

Nicholas Hunt, the Home Office Forensic Pathologist is chief amongst those you mention. I think what has aroused most suspicion is what is contained in his autopsy report that necessitated Hutton to classify it for 70yrs?

Also, as best as one not living in the country can...

2010-08-24T19:02:02.070+01:00

Also, as best as one not living in the country can tell, the Iraqi elections are not rigged. Where is the evidence? If the US had rigged the elections, wouldn't you think they'd have given their man (Ayad Allawi, I presume) a clear victory?

Fionnuala, I was using Iraq Body Count's estim...

2010-08-24T18:44:32.248+01:00

Fionnuala, I was using Iraq Body Count's estimate of over 100,000 civilian violent deaths due to the war. It admits that that may be too low a figure; a better estimate is probably the Iraq Family Health Survey, which puts the number of violent deaths at about 150,000 and the total excess deaths due to the war at over 400,000. I didn't use the figures you cite, namely the Lancet and ORB

Alfie, I would say the election in Iraq was rigged...

2010-08-24T15:23:44.029+01:00

Alfie, I would say the election in Iraq was rigged to ensure the West has a puppet in power.
The death toll in Iraq stands at over 655'000. According to John Pilger in the 'New Statesman' 1million is a more credible figure.

All these people died so that the West could rid the world of a dictator. A dictator who do not happen to bother them, until they lost control of

Fionnuala, I don't think Bush or Blair were re...

2010-08-23T22:26:42.898+01:00

Fionnuala, I don't think Bush or Blair were really interested in bringing democracy to Iraq. I think they would have preferred a friendly dictatorship there, like that of Mubarak in Egypt or the royal family in Saudi Arabia. It would have been much easier to control. However, they could never have gotten away with installing a dictator, so they were obliged to follow their pro-democracy

Before you slag off the USA,just like to ask you p...

2010-08-23T21:08:39.811+01:00

Before you slag off the USA,just like to ask you people,who are the yanks. where did they come from. And on Mr Blair, and his 4.6 million,he will give it to the brave fighting men of the UK. willie

Mick, a good piece. While you are much more host...

2010-08-23T20:21:52.055+01:00

Mick,

a good piece. While you are much more hostile to Halliday than I am there are issues you raise there which seem pretty much on the money.

I never felt easy with the causes he chose to back but I do feel he was confronted by a host of difficulties and analysed things differently from we do.

One issue that you article does not address is what to do in the

Alfie, what did you mean, by establising a democra...

2010-08-23T19:43:59.595+01:00

Alfie, what did you mean, by establising a democracy (of sorts) in Iraq?

Do you honestly believe the West went into Iraq to establish a democracy?

It is now looking highly likely that they murdered Dr David Kelly to cover up their lies.
Do you honestly believe, people who behave the way they have behaved are remotely interested in democracy?

Mick, some good points there, particularly that ne...

2010-08-23T15:33:11.513+01:00

Mick, some good points there, particularly that neither democracy nor socialism should be imposed by force. It was really cynical how the arguments for the invasion of Iraq were presented. If I recall correctly, the humanitarian intervention argument was like an afterthought; it wasn't used very prominently until it was clear that no WMD's could be found. But the humanitarian intervention