tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post4890869236819188805..comments2024-03-29T13:37:11.174+00:00Comments on TPQ: Walk In Commemoration Of Ahern And McElwainAMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-14232940050679160312023-05-12T13:50:06.363+01:002023-05-12T13:50:06.363+01:00It is worth remembering though that in the earlier...It is worth remembering though that in the earlier years of the campaign there was a restriction imposed by the leadership forbidding attacks on those out of uniform.<br /><br />Nonsense and the fact that it is nonsense completely undermines your whole point that they were attcked becuase of their uniform not ther rligion.<br /><br />A number of the early UDR members to be killed were catholic Peter Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12398468713302546904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-26204021696683042532017-09-03T09:06:47.643+01:002017-09-03T09:06:47.643+01:00Steve,
my comments are observations ... mere expl...Steve,<br /><br />my comments are observations ... mere explorations and attempts at understanding, primarily for myself, of some of the overarching dynamics that may or may not be at play. Its about the processes involved rather than setting tasks for anyone.<br /><br />Seemingly intractable situations such as those that existed between sections of our respective communities benefit best from Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-82716023991601966062017-09-02T00:38:04.781+01:002017-09-02T00:38:04.781+01:00Fair enough HJ, though you will find that an impos...Fair enough HJ, though you will find that an impossible task as the unionist community would view it as nothing else but an attempt to rewrite history.Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-16895465218435432772017-08-30T09:44:27.637+01:002017-08-30T09:44:27.637+01:00Steve,
I get and respect that many PUL's and ...Steve,<br /><br />I get and respect that many PUL's and others like Barry G have an attachment to the <i>perception</i> that the campaign against the paid militias of the UDR and RUC reservists was one of ethnic cleansing ... I'm challenging that narrative and promulgating a more factual counter argument. <br /><br />I'd also reiterate that we're in agreement as to the strategic Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-35009446708633799862017-08-29T22:24:32.715+01:002017-08-29T22:24:32.715+01:00Henry JoY,
Peter is right in saying that it was h...Henry JoY,<br /><br />Peter is right in saying that it was how our community perceived the murder of Protestants, you have to remember that the wearing of a Crown uniform did not in our mind take away that they were Protestants first and foremost.<br /><br />Simon is also right, but the reason why ordinary Catholics were targeted was far more simplistic. They couldn't get to the Provos so Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-16289969229937603482017-08-28T23:14:44.731+01:002017-08-28T23:14:44.731+01:00Peter,
the meaning of our communication is not si...Peter,<br /><br />the meaning of our communication is not simply what we intend, but also the responses we get.Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-62689226227294431662017-08-28T13:16:13.441+01:002017-08-28T13:16:13.441+01:00Henry Joy
At no time were ever seen as fair game b...Henry Joy<br />At no time were ever seen as fair game by me.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027470398152153427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-25118627813296521672017-08-28T10:40:30.878+01:002017-08-28T10:40:30.878+01:00Peter,
yes it descended into a sordid mess and ye...Peter,<br /><br />yes it descended into a sordid mess and yes perceptions are allowable ... and yet for a fuller understanding, for more accurate appraisals and greater opportunities for learning or healing we must make distinction between perceptions and actualities. Factual history, wherever possible, must triumph over collective memory. Failure to courageously establish and maintain factual Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-74298032576272308852017-08-26T21:37:57.883+01:002017-08-26T21:37:57.883+01:00Peter, the stench is great you are correct. It loo...Peter, the stench is great you are correct. It looks like it's behind us although many still live with disabilities and loss. <br /><br />I understand perception is important. I guess it's not beyond the realms of possibility that people were murdered so people had no option but to sell their farm. Seems an unlikely basis for a campaign though. <br /><br />As discussed above Catholics andSimonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029656112153509987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-21329272220921976842017-08-26T09:33:05.553+01:002017-08-26T09:33:05.553+01:00Barry,
I imagine there're many who would agre...Barry,<br /><br />I imagine there're many who would agree with your proposals. Yet I can't help but think they are both simplistic and unachievable. <br /><br />Sure ... these acts of remembrance are perceived as distasteful and absurd by more and more people but suppressing such gatherings and the removal of memorials is most likely to be counter-productive. The harder these groupings Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-86879406417822180482017-08-26T07:40:45.475+01:002017-08-26T07:40:45.475+01:00Simon
It is all down to perception. You may believ...Simon<br />It is all down to perception. You may believe that protestant, landowning, orange order members were murdered by their neighbours purely because they were in the UDR or RUC reserve but that is not how it is perceived in our community. In our community those murders are perceived as being part of a sectarian campaign to "green" mixed areas. Catholic civilians were duly seen asPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027470398152153427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-60171650506741508572017-08-25T18:51:08.461+01:002017-08-25T18:51:08.461+01:00Steve R. Surely the pressure to stay away would ap...Steve R. Surely the pressure to stay away would apply to anybody regardless of faith. <br /><br />The arguments about killing Protestant security force members due to a campaign of sectarianism and Catholic members due to a campaign of dissuasion is a good stick to beat Republicans with but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. <br /><br />Security force members were killed full stop. If it was Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029656112153509987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-43521881605557822772017-08-25T13:12:33.987+01:002017-08-25T13:12:33.987+01:00Thanks for clarifying that Steve. (I was wondering...Thanks for clarifying that Steve. (I was wondering if you'd stubbed your toe or something)!<br /><br />With the level of polarisation that previously existed across Northern society its hard to imagine that we weren't all, to some degree, influenced and compromised by our own passed-down biases. Its not always easy to untangle those prejudices.<br /><br />Partition delivered contrived Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-74144755906954119012017-08-25T10:30:38.593+01:002017-08-25T10:30:38.593+01:00The Provisionals, INLA, UDA, UVF and all the alpha...The Provisionals, INLA, UDA, UVF and all the alphabet soup of terror organisations who waged spurious "war" on behalf of their "communities" were sectarian and corrupt to the core. End of. Just as Confederacy statues are being dismantled in the former slave states in the US, all symbols of the idolatry of terror should be taken down in Northern Ireland.Barry Gilheanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14220262677398695734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-31137172398079856422017-08-24T23:15:19.304+01:002017-08-24T23:15:19.304+01:00HenryJoY,
Sorry, I did not express myself clearly...HenryJoY,<br /><br />Sorry, I did not express myself clearly. My point was that I do NOT believe there was a deliberate campaign of 'ethnic cleansing' on the border but that Barry would be better served to look at Belfast PIRA for the sectarian angle, as evidenced by Gerry Bradley. It still is much of a muchness. Obviously those targeted were going to be of the PUL community so claims Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-141118814568934312017-08-24T19:28:33.522+01:002017-08-24T19:28:33.522+01:00The traditional militarism of the area which I spe...The traditional militarism of the area which I speak of incorporates the Rosliath district where we had gathered. Only a mile from where we gathered stands a monument dedicated to 3 men who were brutally executed by England, in 1797, for having had asserted the rights of ‘Catholic protestant and dissenter’ in the ranks of the united Irish men. The Republican history of the area impacts upon each Tarlach Mac Dhónaillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13069746947899214299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-32916935882528080882017-08-22T19:23:27.088+01:002017-08-22T19:23:27.088+01:00Steve R,
I am not denying the sectarian nature of...Steve R,<br /><br />I am not denying the sectarian nature of killings but sectarianism doesn't equal ethnic cleansing. Particularly when the statistical breakdown of Republican victims' status and religion shows otherwise. <br /><br />"One would imagine to send a very powerful message to other Catholics in the security forces."<br /><br />So on the one hand Protestants in the Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029656112153509987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-21001480843146072862017-08-22T11:18:44.455+01:002017-08-22T11:18:44.455+01:00Steve,
"the fact that a lot of those targete...Steve,<br /><br /><i>"the fact that a lot of those targeted were part-timers clouds the issue"</i><br /><br />Au contraire, mon frère ... it's the fact of the matter that a large majority of those targeted were Protestants that clouds the issue ... those executed were targeted solely because they were, or were believed to be, members of the security forces. Their faith, if Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-65662138850573472142017-08-22T05:57:45.455+01:002017-08-22T05:57:45.455+01:00Pointing the sectarian finger never works.
Simon,...Pointing the sectarian finger never works.<br /><br />Simon,<br /><br />"Why target Catholic members of the security forces if that was the case?"<br /><br />One would imagine to send a very powerful message to other Catholics in the security forces.<br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />There's no need to imply a low level ethnic cleansing campaign, in the border areas the fact that a lot Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-67369225596549336552017-08-21T17:41:26.520+01:002017-08-21T17:41:26.520+01:00The victims' organisation South East Fermanag...The victims' organisation South East Fermanagh Foundation (SEFF) argue that it was ethnic cleansing of a sort as many of the victims were murdered at thier workplace, farms or had actually left the UDR. The desire to claim land may well have been a factor.Barry Gilheanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14220262677398695734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-55544950760000475492017-08-20T22:54:47.796+01:002017-08-20T22:54:47.796+01:00Barry
I have read Prof. Henry Paterson's boo...Barry <br /><br />I have read Prof. Henry Paterson's book 'Ireland's Violent Frontier' in which the accusation of ethnic cleansing is favourably analysed. It seems that nearly all the Professor's examples were members of the security forces. For ethnic cleansing to have taken place it has to be down to ethnic, religious or other factor but the crucial thing about that factor Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029656112153509987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-25453230813579483662017-08-20T22:40:14.021+01:002017-08-20T22:40:14.021+01:00Tarlach,
most commemoration is merely a vehicle t...Tarlach,<br /><br />most commemoration is merely a vehicle to sustain and reinforce collective memory. As outlined to Barry, collective memory is a construct to maintain the herd. Alas for you, even with all your commemoration, your herd is on the decline and your myths are on the wane and thankfully becoming less sustainable over time.<br /><br />(Though I won't claim absolute authority Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-73710921059406327092017-08-20T20:30:58.404+01:002017-08-20T20:30:58.404+01:00Barry
all conflict arises from impositions of wil...Barry<br /><br />all conflict arises from impositions of will. <br />Until relevantly recent times Irish history would, I'd contend, be viewed by almost all unbiased observers as a long series of exactions upon the native stock from our nearest neighbours along with those of their planted agents. Colonial British impositions over the centuries are myriad. To conflate armed resistance againstHenry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-43531058562867583792017-08-20T18:24:23.324+01:002017-08-20T18:24:23.324+01:00Wise words Tarlach. I think we have good work stil...Wise words Tarlach. I think we have good work still to do but are on the right track. Rest in peace the fearless Seamus McElwain - the salt of the earth and of whom we are forever proud. Young Ahern with him. I look forward to the contribution I can see you are going to make. Tiocfaidh ár lá.Sean Bresnahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06842180620284317746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-10421275618186713012017-08-20T15:43:21.640+01:002017-08-20T15:43:21.640+01:00The "people's struggle" and "tr...The "people's struggle" and "traditional militarism" you speak of, Tarlach, was in reality a squalid campaign of low-level ethnic cleansing against the Protestant population of County Fermanagh in Seamus McElwaine wuld have been involved as Fermanagh O/C; far removed from the idealism of a Wolfe Tone. When will you diehards realise that the "armed struggle" willBarry Gilheanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14220262677398695734noreply@blogger.com