Sunday, November 11, 2018

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All These Children

Cait Trainor slams Irish people who wear the poppy given the numerous killings of Irish civilians by British troops.

Does anyone ever notice that the big poppy wearers of old London town are absolute hypocrites? As an Irish Republican, I am politically opposed to the British Army and so of course I don't wear one.

However I notice that the Irish people that do wear them and wax lyrical about the great British army, are the same Irish people who are vehemently opposed to the IRA for killing civilians, they are morally outraged!

Yet they have absolutely no skin on their nose about supporting an Army that has killed innocent Irish men, women and children. The moral outrage against the IRA rings very hollow when they are more than prepared to wear a poppy to support the soldiers that murdered people at Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy and all these children.


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Cait Trainor is an Irish republican from Armagh.

19 comments :

Barry Gilheany said...

Cait

Fact is, nationalist and loyalist terror groups killed nine times more people than the Brits including many children.

I wore the poppy today and went to the Remembrance Service in Colchester where not to dishonour the memory of Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy but to mark the hideous slaughter of World War I.

Eoghan said...

The Vichy French were also morally outraged by the French Resistance.

But at least the French Resistance got their D-Day to get rid of the Vichy French.

As such Irish Republicans & Nationalists should take note of who all the Vichy Irish are.

And thanks to their wearing the British poppy & inveighing against Irish revolutionaries…

They’ll be easy to spot in the crowd, like the Vichy French were, come our own D-Day.

So maybe just maybe hope and history can rhyme:

“How France dealt with those who collaborated with the Nazis after war’s end”

By Nikola Simonovski, June 2, 2017

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2017/06/02/how-france-dealt-with-those-who-collaborated-with-the-nazis-after-wars-end/

And in anticipation of the usual responses from British apologists here…

Who really think Brit occupation & rule good, German occupation & rule bad…

I’ll just say this: Name please!

AM said...

Barry that's the spin not the fact.

Who do we actually assign culpability to in the case of Stakeknife?

Who do we assign culpability to in the cases where there was collusion and agent handling?

At some point all of this will have to be revisited and books like Lost Lives seriously revised. The fingerprints of the British state are all over many killings that up until now have been formally attributed to non state actors. I don't believe, given what we have learned, that we can be complacent about these matters. A ratio of 9:1 simply does not reflect the reality of what happened during the conflict.

If people want to remember the dead of WW1 or WW2, I think they should do so with a white poppy. It would not dishonour the dead but would be a an anti-war statement, a noble sentiment given the absolute waste that WW1 was. It would not turn you into a pacifist either - something Peter touched on in response to another piece.

Barry Gilheany said...

Anthony

No disagreement with you over Stakeknife and agent handling. I do not deny that the UK state bears its share of responsibility for deaths in the conflict particularly as it was its own citizens who they killed. This is why I mentioned the need for Truth and Reconciliation/memory recovery/witness testimony at the end of my Genocide article. Regretfully, nobody in all of the 30+ comments that followed it addressed it.

But I will not be guilt-tripped by Cait Trainor, Eoghan and others over what I choose to wear on Remembrance Day.

Eoghan, can you clarify what you mean by "Irish Republicans & Nationalists should take note of whjo all the Vichy Irish are .. cpme our moen D-Day" and who this comment is aimed at?

Can you clarify

Cáit Trainor said...

The issue that I have about the fanatical Poppy wearers in Ireland is that they are usually the same people who are shouting from the rooftops about IRA killing civlians, yet they will not acknowlege the British Army atrocities carried out in Ireland including the murder of scores of innocent children. For those who say the poppy is not political it quite clearly is as the band of poppy fanatics in Ireland are only too happy to scream about IRA killings and about how they are decent and good people while simultaneously ignoring that the British Army murdered children here, not to mention the innocent adults at Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy to name just two events, this isn't just wilful ignorance it is politically motivated ignorance. The faux outrage of them at Republicans is exposed.

frankie said...

Barry,
Before next 11/11...and poppy day can you find thirty mins from the next 365 days and watch The WWI Conspiracy . If you can't watch the video here is the complete transcript.

If you follow and take on booard what Corbett has to say, and fact check his sources on WW1 you will never wear a poppy no matter what the colour again....

What you have said recently reads like what Conor Gerard McKenna said on social media that was picked up by the Belfast Telegraph.....

On a different subject you mentioned what would you say to Conor the poppy wearing British Solider who is a Catholic about..."Well once a Catholic...."

Steve R said...

All this angst and even the Royal British Legion don't care whether you wear a red one, a white one, both or none AT ALL. As they point out, it's an entirely personal thing. Sickening that all hues are kicking the absolute shite out of something that should be entirely a conscious personal decision.

Live and let live!

AM said...

The Unknown tag is no longer applicable here.

If you wish to use anonymity sign off at the end of your comment with a moniker of your choice. Keep the same moniker for each comment to prevent sock puppets. This avoids readers confusing one Unknown with another.

AM said...

Barry - I don't think you should be guilt tripped. I didn't read the comments as a guilt tripping exercise more a disagreement and Cait never addressed you to begin with. She made a very valid point. It is very difficult for many from the North who have experienced the British Army to commemorate its troops. It is not just WW1 or WW2 troops being honoured - many of whom assisted in war crimes but in typical British one eyed fashion tried the Germans for same - but the killers of all the children referred to by Cait. Expecting any commemorative gesture from that quarter is like asking a slave to kneel and kiss its chains. It is an effort to humiliate.

Poppy fascism (or fanaticism as Cait terms it) works both ways. If you want to wear it, your choice, without being screamed at for it. Many others do not share your sentiment and they should be free in the media, public life and in every social setting to go about their business unaccosted as a result of their conscientious objection to the poppy.

Niall said...

The next thing is they'll be placing poppy wreaths on Mount Street Bridge to commemorate the dead British soldiers of the Sherwood Foresters...you know, the regiment that the firing squad was drawn from that executed the leaders of '16'....oh, wait, they're already doing that!!!!!

The whole idea of the poppy is the redefinition of Irish history by Britain....

Henry JoY said...

Barry G.,

your article on Genocide, like your one on Nuclear Proliferation, are comprehensive pieces of work and worthy contributions. Yet, arbitrary responses will of necessity belie the complexity of such issues. Its not surprising therefore that the narrative went sideways and your central premise was overlooked or ignored and left essentially unaddressed, never mind challenged.

"Without the moral authority of condemnation from a judicial body representing society as a political entity, be it at the national or supra-national level, the social recognition of victims as victims will, at the very least, be greatly impaired."


I know that, for me at least, some 'ideas' have to be allowed to cook slowly. Truth recovery is one of those. These are sensitive and potentially highly divisive matters. To paraphrase from Michael D's inaugural speech of last night; in the process of reviewing and re-integrating past events we must come with courage to look at the wounds of the past, and the scabs that cover them, whilst at the same time making sure not to reopen these old sores. This, rather than blanket condemnation or wholesale prosecution, is largely how working out our recent past ought be too.

Bernadette McAliskey recently recounting her experiences of the early Civil Rights movement acknowledged that in the fury and speed of unfolding events the leaders often and understandably had their heads down and failed to look up or out at the bigger picture. Surely limited perspectives, and the inherent unawareness of consequential follow-ons, are common to most parties in most conflicts?

As I allow this pot to simmer further, and with the necessary very low heat, I'm mindful of David Reif's exhortation to "give forgetting a chance" and will contemplate further Camus's observation of the French-Algerian conflict which allowed (that) it was 'as unavoidable as it was unjustifiable'.

DaithiD said...

It was hard not be envious of their Celebrations singular focus and goodwill towards the armed forces, compared to the Centenary of the Rising a few years ago. I wish we could help the Vols around today before worrying about poppies. Technically one does not preclude the other, but in reality most people’s spare time and attention is finite.

Northsider said...

Barry Gilheany: Wearing a poppy is not to commemorate the "hideous slaughter" of WWI - if it were Irish Anglo-supremacist revisionists like Gay Byrne, Kevin Myers, and Eoghan Harris wouldn't promote it; it is to glorify Anglo-militarism in the past and in the present - as in the invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, former Yugoslavia and elsewhere - not to mention Ireland. The real "guilt-tripping" is by those who seek to glorify British imperalism, and weaponise moral outrage over the IRA as a political tool. The fact that not a few of these are ex members of the Workers Party and/or the Offical IRA - a joint entity known to have had very close relations with the British deep state (see the book "The Lost Revolution: A History of the Official IRA and the Workers Party") makes all their fake tears over PIRA killings even more absurd.

Eoghan said...

Barry, read what this WWI veteran says about it.

“War is a racket” by Major General Smedley Butler

I love the line there by the British diplomat making the case for Wilson to join in:

‘If you don’t & we lose then we can’t pay your banks back and the Germans won’t.’

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

A major cause of the WWI was the construction of the Berlin to Bagdad Railway as it would have made trade with the Middle East independent of shipping and the shipping lanes Britain could control, but also ran near the OIL. Britain was most anxious to develop to Mosul oilfield in Iraq as it was then known and exclude all rivals. It's called RESOURCE DENIAL THEORY and is an important sub-theory of the Geopolitical Theory that so obsessed the British Liberal Imperialists of the time. If you remember they controlled the government. The British Government had from 1905 launched a major campaign to take control of the world's oil supplies as there was little oil within the British Empire.

As such the British Army & Navy works for The City.

And the US Army & Navy works for Wall Street.

And so that’s nothing to celebrate or commemorate in my political opinion.

Unlike say smaller countries rebelling against this imperial colonial order then and now.

Like homeowners shooting murderous burglars.

That’s why I wear the Easter Lilly to commemorate those Irish homeowners.

But I can’t understand why any Irish homeowner would want to commemorate British burglary.

David Higgins said...

On the subject of guilt triping, is that not what the bbc does for about 3 weeks prior to remembrance Sunday? If people want to wear poppies that's on them, my only gripe is when they pretend it'not political and doesn't glorify the Brit army. That's nonsense

Barry Gilheany said...

Eoghan, Northsider, Cait

I am not getting into any more arguments about wearing the poppy. I took an informed decision to wear it yesterday at my local War Memorial to commemorate all losses in World War I. We can debate forever why ii happened. Imperialism, competition for resources, German expansionism, breakdown of the Congress of Vienna balance of power system etc. I was commemorating the victims of mindless militarism and nationalism as everybody who attended the ceremonies across the world (including Dublin - 50,000 Irishmen died in World War I) was doing and to renew my belief in rules based international order in the era of Trump, Putin, Brexit and the return of nationalism spreading like a virus across Europe.

I have on many occasions on this forum condemned all acts of violence perpetrated by all parties to the NI conflict; nationalist and loyalist terror groups and agents of the state. I display no faux outrage of any description and my wearing of a poppy does nothing to detract from that nor does it make me some sort of" fanatical Anglo-Irish military revisionist" whatever that means; presumably those who challenged the orthodox nationalist narratives of the past.

I am left with the feeling that i am regarded as some sort of traitor by you guys for wearing a poppy because I come from a Northern Irish Catholic background. Which brings me back to the question I asked you, Eoghan, earlier; to whom are you referring to by your comments about the "Vichy Irish and their wearing the popping and inveighing against Irish revolutionaries and being easy to spot on our D-day". The fact that Nazi Germany invaded France as part of its criminal war of aggression and that Northern Ireland remains part of the UK as part of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement overwhelmingly ratified by referendums in NI and the Republic is purely incidental as is the strange case of Sean Russell.

Eoghan said...

Barry, I was referring to the Vichy Irish and their wearing the British political poppy in memory of British wars while at the same time they insult Irish revolutionaries, and the fact that these Vichy Irish will be easy to spot come on our D-Day. These are Irish people who identify more with their invader and oppressor than their fellow countrymen and women. They are always more likely to make excuses for the Occupier all the while condemning the Occupied.

Every power-powerless paradigm has them.

The Vichy French and their German invaders are by comparison different in degree not kind.
That said nice try skipping over England’s invasions and subjegation of Ireland and starting your historical clock at they’re just “democratically” remaining here pursuant to the terms and choices of the ostensible election they set in 1998 saying the Irish could choose between total British direct rule or partial British indirect rule but not a United Ireland sans UK because:

Before the (GFA) negotiations even started, the British Prime Minister Tony Blair made it abundantly clear that a united Ireland was not on the table: “My agenda is not a united Ireland – and I wonder just how many see it as a realistic possibility in the foreseeable future…A political settlement is not a slippery slope to a united Ireland.”44

44 Paul Bew, Henry Patterson, Paul Teague, Between War and Peace, pp. 217, 219.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/docs/krings290406.pdf

Only a Vichy Irish person would support such Imperial British choices for Ireland. And if you want further clarification then know if the shoe fits wear it. Because you can’t have it both ways.

As the late Ken Kesey would say: “You’re either on the bus or you’re off the bus.”

Northsider said...

Barry Gilheany: I don't think any Irish person, north or south, should wear a poppy, but I'm not going to use violence to try and stop them from doing so - in contrast to the lowlife soccer jingos in England - and their cowardly mob attacks on James McClean on account of his courageous refusal to wear a poppy. One can't help noticing the lack of outrage among the media PC brigade over these violent attacks, or over the attacks on Neil Lennon in Scotland. By the same token, the day I see the mainstream of the southern Irish poppy-cock brigade condemn the British security forces, the DUP, the UUP and the Orange Order for their proven and very public connections with loyalist terror groups, in the same unequivocal fashion with which they condemn republican violence, is the day I'll believe their enthusiasm for poppy wearing is not motivated by Unionist supremacism. You may condemn these things, which is to your credit, but most of the poppy-cockers certainly do not.

Frankie Lanigan said...

What a diverse issue ....i remember Alex maskey wearing a poppy many years agon......after reading Robert Fisk etc i felt so uncomfortable with his decision.....
I understand the need too aknoweldge wearing the flower but not that one that sends money to the killers of irish people ..maybe the white one to mark respect for all those killed but Alex maskey i knew almost 40 yrs ago is a paid minister of the british as is spike murry and sowhat about gerry kelly many more i served time with ......make you sick they may have things to say about me but shame on them