Saturday, May 19, 2018

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No Border — Irish Unity Now

From Sean Bresnahan @ An Claidheamh Solus the text of a letter published in the Irish News, 19th April, underscoring the imperative that Irish Unity proceed upon Britain’s withdrawal from the EU.






Post-the recent ‘Brexit’ vote in the UK and with Britain currently negotiating her exit from the European Union, Ireland — both north and south — faces certain upheaval over the months and years to come.

Brexit is now the dominant conversation in Irish politics, with much of that discussion centering on its likely impact on the border — a border which still separates the north of our country from its natural hinterland, the rest of Ireland.

Much of the focus is on whether a ‘renewed’ border, despite it having never gone away, should be a ‘hard border’ or a ‘soft border’ — depending on what arrangements are decided on by Britain (which claims sovereignty over the North) and the rest of Europe when Brexit has been finalised.

But the damage that Brexit is certain to do Ireland, in particular the North — which faces acute isolation removed from Europe and on the margins of the UK — demands neither a hard border or a soft border but an END to the border, with full Irish Unity to proceed in its stead.

Brexit, then, establishes a renewed imperative for Irish Unity — that Ireland at last be reunited. With the difficulties faced by our divided country set only to deepen, in a manner not seen in many decades, this is now a national priority and indeed THE national priority.

On that basis, we propose that the Irish people be afforded their long-denied right to determine their own future — this through a national referendum that brings forward an independent all-Ireland republic.

Such a republic is best-placed to resolve the complex challenges presented by Brexit. It would afford the Irish people a better future, for each of their number, in a modern democratic arrangement that affords the stability demanded by these uncertain times.


Sean Bresnahan, Chair, Thomas Ashe Society Omagh blogs at An Claidheamh Soluis


Follow Sean Bresnahan on Twitter @bres79


35 comments :

Anonymous said...

yes, and brilliant wording on sign too.

sean bres said...

Thanks Grouch. Myself and a few others painted and erected those signs ourselves. They’ve given me a lot of satisfaction since as I’ve seen them on numerous TV broadcasts recorded from the border! I hope I live to say our country reunited.

Wolfsbane said...

Will this United Ireland still surrender its sovereignty to the EU? If not, why should Irexit be better than Brexit?

DaithiD said...

Sean,
EU membership has impoverished the Irish nation, and will force it to try and ameliorate Merkels increasingly unpopular and dangerous invitation to the MENA region to migrate to Germany, by resettling a proposed 2m of them within Ireland instead. (And if their Math is of the level of their fiscal policies and budgets , is likely to be a fraction of the actual, realised number).

And the Irish taxpayer are paying for propaganda that tells them how good this will be. I struggle to see how Republicans view their interests best served within such a grouping. Explanations like “one race, the human race” cannot really tap into the nationalist resurgence washing over Europe, but curiously absent from Ireland thus far.

sean bres said...

Let the people of Ireland determine on that matter as a national constituency — as is their right. An all-Ireland republic is the necessary requirement to allow that right to proceed. Let’s see that republic and from there let the people decide.

Wolfsbane said...

Sean, I took it from your comment, 'But the damage that Brexit is certain to do Ireland, in particular the North — which faces acute isolation removed from Europe and on the margins of the UK', that your thought Ireland needed to be in the EU - and needed the UK to be in it too.

What is your personal position on the EU, and what is the Society's position? What sort of Ireland are you advocating? A sovereign state or are part of an ever-closer European Union?

People in the North would need to know what they might be buying into if they voted for a UI.

sean bres said...

Wolfesbane, what I want and what the Irish people might set toward are likely two different things. In any event, my view on the European Union is that it is anti-democratic and imposes on the sovereignty of the states that make up its number. Rather than an ‘ever closer union’, I would prefer instead a fraternity of free nations as envisaged by the great James Connolly — as I’ve written on before. Regardless of what I want, however, this matter will ultimately be one for the Irish people, as a whole, to decide upon. Where I want to arrive at is a situation where the Irish people — without external impediment and inclusive of their differing identities and traditions — are in control of their own affairs and future. The formation of a 32-county republic is the obvious way to ensure that this be so. From there, the agreed democratic processes of that republic — these to be set out at constituent assembly upon the formation of said republic — must be the means through which all further change is determined upon and arrived at.

Anonymous said...

sean - one constituency - donegal voted no - by a whisker. ireland is dead. the first country in the world to VOTE TO KILL ITS UNBORN. all is changed, changed utterly, a terrible ugliness is born. united ireland - its yesterdays dream. the irish are fucked. slan btw - im outta here, enjoyed ur comments and heart and sharp mind over the years - but u have to take into account what just happened today (on top of demographic upheaval). i call myself gaelic irish from today on in, because quite simply - i dont want to be lumped in with the irish anymore who are partying tonite in dublin castle - scum . slan old bean. and i hope u call urself gaelic irish because u are - dont go abroad and call urself irish - ul get no respect - call urself a gael from here on in - the irish deserve everything thats coming to them now. God bless u and yours mo chara. and slan to wolfesbane also - tog go bog e u cosmic Baptist agus daithid freisin..

Wolfsbane said...

Sean, glad you recognize the threat to freedom posed by the EU. And the EU leaders have made it totally clear that your preference (and I share it) is not where the EU is going. A United States of Europe is the aim.

I hold that my people are more than a tradition/identity of Irishness. But two nations can become one where circumstances favour it. Those circumstances have never been acceptable to the British Ulster people - our civil and religious liberty was at great risk (as the Catholic State that emerged in the South proved). There were economic concerns likewise. Nor has the Republican killing campaign encouraged us to join in one nation with those who murdered their neighbours.

Now that the Republic has abandoned Catholicism, you might think I would be happy with what's on offer. But I'm grieved that the proper ditching of Catholic control has been at the expense of future generations of slaughtered unborn boys and girls.

It has certainly brought Ireland into the same moral mire that Britain has long wallowed in, so the choice for British Ulster people is a lot harder to call. And of course, many British Ulster people are equally godless and welcome abortion and same-sex marriage.

There is little in Britain that has emotional appeal to British Ulster Christians anymore. Society is godless, devoted to hedonism and celebrating sexual perversion and murder of the unborn. Even the civil and religious freedom that once formed our main reason for refusing a UI is under severe threat.

But would a 32-county nation be any better? Most Republicans, as far as I can gather, are as godless as the British elite. They too would be looking to enforce not just toleration of LGBTQI, but it's celebration. Our kids would be taught immoral things are moral and any dissent would be punished in the courts. I'm happy to suffer persecution for Christ, but I don't believe we should volunteer for it.

The only liberty that the UK promises is that of Brexit. If we Brexiteers are correct, not only will we have saved British liberty, but also did so at little or no economic cost.

So at moment, it is these economic and sovereignty matters that provide the main reasons I would not want to join a UI. But if Ireland decided to Irexit, that would narrow the gap enormously.


Steve R said...

Moral pontification from religious hypocrites is exactly why the Republic shoved two fingers up to the Church. Whining that Britain is less shackled to these scumbags and their fairy-stories is asinine.

Barry Gilheany said...

Could abortion rights be the issue that trundles Northern Ireland into a United Ireland/ The thought just came to me.

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R, I see you assume everyone who believes in God or gods is a hypocrite. I can see what sort of UI you envisage, and it's not one I would aspire to. Atheist domination replacing Catholic domination has no appeal to me and my fellow Evangelicals north and south. It will attract some godless Protestants, of course. Together you might well get the Ireland of your dreams. As a modern Bobby Sands would put it, “Our revenge will be the slaughter of our children.”



Steve R said...

Wolfie,

If it was truly an atheist state human rights would be enshrined in the law of the land.

If it was a theocracy, the religiously indoctrinated will dispense of human rights as per their whim using justification from obscure bronze age desert myths as their 'righteousness'.

You are also an atheist Wolfie, don't kid yourself. You don't believe in 3000 other 'gods'.

I just go one further.

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R,

No, I don't think the religious freedoms enshrined in any law of the Soviet Union, China, Albania, Cuba, etc. were of any effect. The gulags, prison cells, psychiatric hospitals and crematoria were the norms for Christian citizens.

Like you, I deplore theocracies, but atheism is effectively a secular religion, and a very intolerant one too. Those who reject it are marked for 're-education' or destruction in the actual atheist states, never mind their constitutions.

No also, to me being an atheist because I don't believe in other gods. That old atheist meme is nonsensical, for belief in ANY God or gods makes one not and atheist.

David Higgins said...

Wolfsbane,
It always brings a wry smile to my face when I hear British unionists like yourself talking about saving British liberty. It's been over 70 years since British liberties were even remotely threatened. Any laws imposed on upon the British people, including joining and leaving the common market, have been done using British constitutional politics, a system most Brits seem quite happy with. A lot of other countries in that time have lost liberties, often to Britain and her allies, but they never seem to matter as much.
As far as evangelicals go, and correct me if am wrong, is your job not just to spread the word of Jesus and if people don't listen they'll be judged? If true why does there always seem to be a tinge of bitterness in the words of true believers?

Wolfsbane said...

David Higgins,

We were lied to by Heath, to get us to enter the ECC. I didn't believe him then and voted No, and time has shown it was indeed a lie. The intent all along has been an ever-closer union - with an EU as the United States of Europe. Many of the leaders have opened boasted of that intent. The Blairs and the Majors and all the other Europhiles cynically used the democratic process to further their aims - but by lying to the people. So the laws we get from the EU are NOT our laws. I hope Ireland will not let itself be dragged into a European superstate, especially after spending so much blood and tears in getting free from the British state.

Yes, my job is to spread the word of Jesus - but not 'just'. Christians are to bring the gospel to all who will hear it. The supreme thing one can do for another person is to tell them how to get eternal life. But we are also to love our neighbour as ourselves, including our enemies. That means we should warn them of dangers, and speak up for those who are unable to speak for themselves. William Wilberforce, the Evangelical MP, spoke out against slavery and the pro-slavery MPs said he was bringing the gospel into politics. He was merely doing what he could in his field, in love to his fellowman.

I'm sorry if any of that seems to be 'bitter' to you; if I were bitter I would not be praying for my enemies or seeking their welfare.

But I am angry towards those who exploit others, so my comments about Blair and the Europhiles may be considered bitter. I don't know - all I can say is that I would be glad if they turned from their evil ways rather than bear the guilt of their actions.

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death,
And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.
12 If you say, “Surely we did not know this,”
Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it?
He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?

David Higgins said...

Wolfsbane,
Being lied to isn't an argument, all politicians lie, being a thoughtful adult means discecting manifestos or arguments and seeing if any thing resonates. Taking professional debaters and liars at face value is childish. My point remains the same the British people were dragged into nothing. Indeed a lot of them want the vote overturned. In reference to Ireland, Dublin has already surrendered much of it's sovereignty to Brussels and the fall out from that is inevitable, particuarly when anti eu sentiment rises.
You say that you bring the gospel to those that will hear it, fine. What i meant by bitterness is evangelicals who promise hell to those who won't hear it, what's that about? I don't know you personallly, maybe your more reserved, but your like certainly seem bitter.

Wolfsbane said...

David, you said:
'Being lied to isn't an argument, all politicians lie, being a thoughtful adult means discecting manifestos or arguments and seeing if any thing resonates. Taking professional debaters and liars at face value is childish.'

Of course, we would not expect a politician to make good on all their promises. We know they inflate much and deliver little. BUT when a one-issue election is called, a referendum, we must expect the promise will be honest and adhered to. Heath and Co. lied about the meaning of voting Yes. That broke faith with the people and was an act of treachery.

'My point remains the same the British people were dragged into nothing.' As above, the lying on the specific issue dragged us in without our consent.

'Indeed a lot of them want the vote overturned.'

Yes, a lot of Britons want to remain in the EU - but the point is that more want out.

'In reference to Ireland, Dublin has already surrendered much of it's sovereignty to Brussels and the fall out from that is inevitable, particuarly when anti eu sentiment rises.'

Glad you see that loss of sovereignty. Any patriot would demand
it back.

You say that you bring the gospel to those that will hear it, fine. What i meant by bitterness is evangelicals who promise hell to those who won't hear it, what's that about? I don't know you personallly, maybe your more reserved, but your like certainly seem bitter.'

Ah, I see your meaning now. No, we are not bitter at all. We are sad when our fellowman refuses to obey God's call to repentance and faith, for we know that eternal destruction awaits them if they leave this life still rejecting the gospel. Same as when we see young people heedless of the warnings about drug abuse, for example. We are not bitter when we warn them of the dangers - we are distressed to see them refusing to heed and continuing to do that which will likely destroy them. Likewise, are not gloating over the sinner's rejection of the gospel and our warnings of eternal punishment. We earnestly desire they would take heed.

Yes, I have heard some crazies exulting in warnings of hell - but they are not bringing the gospel as Christ has taught us to do:

2 Corinthians 5: 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


Steve R said...

We all need 'saved' by the very person who is condemning us to Hell if we don't listen to him.

That's a special kind of bollocks that may convince you but not I Wolfie.

David Higgins said...

Wolfesbane,
Referendums are never in practice one issue affairs, they're usually big questions with far reaching consequences. Your argument against Heath could be made by the remain side against Johnson, do you not see that. Again if people have the chance to vote the can't declare they have been dragged anywhere, regardless of the tactics used, and call themselves democrats

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R said:
'We all need 'saved' by the very person who is condemning us to Hell if we don't listen to him. That's a special kind of bollocks that may convince you but not I Wolfie.'

The difference is that we have committed crimes against Him, including the crimes against our fellowman who He made in His own image. We would deserve His righteous wrath - but He offers mercy to all who turn from their evil ways and trust in His Son. That's the only grace that can answer our need for forgiveness and a new life.

Wolfsbane said...

David Higgins said:
'Referendums are never in practice one issue affairs, they're usually big questions with far reaching consequences.'

There are usually several consequences that follow any choice - but the choice given is the line that has to be answered. Offering a false option is to negate the vote. If you vote for free health care as promised by the government putting the referendum, as opposed to private health care, the government cannot them introduce you to a gradual privatized health care system and claim you voted for it. All bets are off.

'Your argument against Heath could be made by the remain side against Johnson, do you not see that.'

The exaggerations by both sides in the EU campaign were deplorable - but the nature of the question was in or out. No one has a crystal ball to say how the economy will pan out, but people knew the choice they were making was In or Out. Heath was bringing us into a system we had not voted to join, because he specifically denied it was a political union being envisaged.

'Again if people have the chance to vote the can't declare they have been dragged anywhere, regardless of the tactics used, and call themselves democrats'

So wrong! By that standard we could be asked to vote for legalizing cannabis and be told we had actually voted for that and compulsory euthanasia.

David Higgins said...

Wolfesbane,
The leap you made there is laughable and you know it, you know what I meant. If people believe politicians lies that's on them. Many times? Everything done to the British people was done under the British constitutional politics, ironically enough apart from the referendum as their parliament is soverign. If you want to get outraged there's plenty other things to get your teeth in. People in Gaza are being shot for approaching a fence, if you listen to Barry it's ok 'cause it's a liberal democracy that's shooting them. Saying that you can't critise Israel because of your book. This is all prophetic to you, you stand and celebrate next to Zionists, so your loving God can come back and kill most of them.

frankie said...

I have seen some people use Heath in various ways to boltster their arguments. Why?

He wasn't intrested in the EU or the debates around the first EU referendum. He was more intrested in sending Paras to the streets of Ballymurphy and Derry to slaughter innocent men, women and children and spent his weekends raping young boys along with Jimmy Savile.

The man was a physcopath.

Brexit and me. Easy, tell both Westminter and Brussels to fcuk off. I doubt there will be a Cuba styled embargo. Irish America wouldn't allow it. Whats wrong with what James Connolly said? THe banks and landlords he was talking about have set up residence in Brussels as well as their first homes in London. Tell them all to fcuk off and leave us to our own devices. Dont forget in days gone by the Irish were the trend setters and our ancestors educated half of Europe.

“If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle., unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.”

Wolfsbane said...

David Higgins,

I'm just back from holiday in Roscommon. Lovely place and courteous people. The traffic actually stopped when they saw you on the kerb waiting to cross! seemed to be the norm too, not an exception.

You said:
'The leap you made there is laughable and you know it, you know what I meant. If people believe politicians lies that's on them. Many times?'

The difference is the gravity of the case. We know a politician may lie about his intention to support a ferry crossing or preservation of a greenbelt. He may be waiting for the slightest excuse not to do so when he is in power. It would be naive to think otherwise. But when it comes to the surrender of our nation's sovereignty, or entry into a war or other such grave matters - one demands honesty. And if our trust is betrayed, expect grave consequences.

'Everything done to the British people was done under the British constitutional politics, ironically enough apart from the referendum as their parliament is soverign.'

That's the point - 'apart from the referendum'. The referendum under Heath was an exercise in the sovereign authority of the people. Parliament is sovereign, but derives its power from the people. So when that vote is held under dishonest promises, the people have been betrayed in a very grave matter. Parliament cannot excuse itself of the betrayal, as it answers to the people.

'If you want to get outraged there's plenty other things to get your teeth in. People in Gaza are being shot for approaching a fence, if you listen to Barry it's ok 'cause it's a liberal democracy that's shooting them.'

Yes there are other issues that are equal to or more serious than the loss of sovereignty of a nation. You say the killings on the Gaza/Israel frontier is one such. I suggest those killings are in the context of the Hamas declared intention to storm the frontier and assault the nearby Israeli villages. The deaths that would have entailed far exceed any caused by Israeli preventative measures. Could less force have achieved the same result of protecting the frontier? Maybe. Or maybe lesser force or later force would simply have allowed the frontier barriers to be overrun, and the number then needed to be killed would have been dramatically higher.

'Saying that you can't critise Israel because of your book. This is all prophetic to you, you stand and celebrate next to Zionists, so your loving God can come back and kill most of them.'

Yes, I support Israel. Rather, I support its right to exist in a portion of its historical homeland. I don't support unnecessary violence against the Palestinian people, nor neglect of their right to their own state and fair compensation for the land Israel has for itself. I have both Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arab brothers and sisters in Christ, and I give a lot of weight to their views on the matter.

Yes, there are several 'Evangelical' ministries out there who are unconditional in their support for Israel. They are unbiblical in doing so, and are often caught up in prophetic speculations rather than the gospel.

I do not look to meddle with events in an attempt to fulfill prophecy. God is fully capable of handling that. I am called to do justice to my fellowman, be they Israeli Jews or Palestinian Arabs.

Wolfsbane said...

frankie said:

'I have seen some people use Heath in various ways to boltster their arguments. Why?
He wasn't intrested in the EU or the debates around the first EU referendum. He was more intrested in sending Paras to the streets of Ballymurphy and Derry to slaughter innocent men, women and children and spent his weekends raping young boys along with Jimmy Savile.'

He was part of the European elite and interested in forwarding their schemes. The people of Ballymurphy and Derry were so much riff-raff to him and them. Indeed, so were the totality of both communities in Northern Ireland. And of course, buggering boys is almost natural to the elites.

'The man was a physcopath.'

Hardly different from his Europhile colleagues.

'Brexit and me. Easy, tell both Westminter and Brussels to fcuk off. I doubt there will be a Cuba styled embargo. Irish America wouldn't allow it. Whats wrong with what James Connolly said? THe banks and landlords he was talking about have set up residence in Brussels as well as their first homes in London. Tell them all to fcuk off and leave us to our own devices.'

I've some sympathy for that, Frankie. But I'm not persuaded that the Irish politicians can be trusted with my liberties either. At the moment we are trying to restore power to the politicians in the UK who we can vote out in the next election. We can't change the EU government like that, so we need out of the EU.

'Dont forget in days gone by the Irish were the trend setters and our ancestors educated half of Europe.'

Indeed. Before the English came and imposed Roman Catholicism on the Celtic Church.

'“If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle., unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.”'

I would still take my chances reforming/restraining capitalism than trying to do the same with a Socialist Republic. History has dark record for Socialist Republics. We know and capitalism knows that capitalism favours the rich elites, but socialism kids itself that it has the workers at heart. Castles become dachas, but you dare not question the new elite.

Better we work at curbing our present elites than try to change them for one that cannot accept it ought to be curbed.

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R said:

'We all need 'saved' by the very person who is condemning us to Hell if we don't listen to him.
That's a special kind of bollocks that may convince you but not I Wolfie.'

Do you dismiss the concept of Pardon? That, say, the President as head of the State that condemns you to life imprisonment may grant you pardon?

God has a just cause to send us to hell. We live in rebellion against Him as our creator, and that rebellion manifests in harm against our neighbour as well as defiance against Him. We lie to our neighbour, steal from him, rape her, murder them. In short, we fail to love them as we love ourselves, and we do not love God as He ought to be loved.

We justify that all by denying His existence, and creating our own morality that permits us to sin against our neighbour while condemning him if he does the same to us.

The proof of His existence lies in the immense complexity and splendour of creation around us, and in the witness our conscience bears against our sins against Him and our neighbour.

That leaves us without excuse. So we need to be saved from our sins, and God Himself has provided the way.

frankie said...

Wolife I think we both agreed on Heath but I have problems getting my head around a few things you said..

" At the moment we are trying to restore power to the politicians in the UK who we can vote out in the next election. We can't change the EU government like that, so we need out of the EU."

How do you expect to sort anything out at a political level when local Politian's can't even have talks about talks. No matter what happens at European level, when Brexit is finally fudged there still wont be a devolved locally accountable administration to sort out the NHS, schools, public housing, education....................

I have issues with this line too Wolfie.

"I would still take my chances reforming/restraining capitalism than trying to do the same with a Socialist Republic. History has dark record for Socialist Republics."

Capitalism, Socialism...Liberal neo cons, same shit different shovel. One of the few time in recorded history that there wasn't wars was when bronze became worthless and everything was done with spit and a handshake (kinda like the fiat monetary system is based on today. The US Federal Reserve nor the Bank of England have anywhere near the amount of gold in vaults people think they have..}.

There is a TV show on Netflix or another freebie pay as you go TV channel called Mr. Robot. Only seen the first few episodes and so far a bunch of hackers want to attack servers and wipe everyone's debt to fcuk the system from the top down.

I have no idea what you mean by curbing....

"Better we work at curbing our present elites than try to change them for one that cannot accept it ought to be curbed."

Curbing the Political elite from what? From raping children, starting wars, making sure whistle blowers are given the Luca Brasi? How about putting them in court. Milošević died in prison for lesser crimes and his were bad..

David Higgins said...

Wolfesbane,
The British collective government, labour or tory are dishonest with their public on all major decisions. There's never grave consequences. I would go as far to suggest if the political pro eu element get the decision reversed it would be accepted. Me and you have different ideas of stolen liberty. If there's a relatively fair democratic process, it's the best you can hope for.

Wolfsbane said...

frankie said:

'I think we both agreed on Heath but I have problems getting my head around a few things you said.." At the moment we are trying to restore power to the politicians in the UK who we can vote out in the next election. We can't change the EU government like that, so we need out of the EU."
How do you expect to sort anything out at a political level when local Politian's can't even have talks about talks. No matter what happens at European level, when Brexit is finally fudged there still wont be a devolved locally accountable administration to sort out the NHS, schools, public housing, education....................'

I agree, our local parliament in shut-down is a big problem. But our Westminster parliament takes the big strains anyway. If we get them working free of the EU, we can have a basis for development of our local issues. A temporary imposition of governance from Westminister on crucial issues - the NHS especially - would keep us above water until sense set in at Stormont.

'I have issues with this line too Wolfie. "I would still take my chances reforming/restraining capitalism than trying to do the same with a Socialist Republic. History has dark record for Socialist Republics."
Capitalism, Socialism...Liberal neo cons, same shit different shovel.'

Only the difference is as I have said - we can change harsh capitalism, but ideological socialism will not permit dissent.

'One of the few time in recorded history that there wasn't wars was when bronze became worthless and everything was done with spit and a handshake (kinda like the fiat monetary system is based on today. The US Federal Reserve nor the Bank of England have anywhere near the amount of gold in vaults people think they have..}.
There is a TV show on Netflix or another freebie pay as you go TV channel called Mr. Robot. Only seen the first few episodes and so far a bunch of hackers want to attack servers and wipe everyone's debt to fcuk the system from the top down.'

Now that would be an interesting adventure! But a viable economic system would still be needed - so trade and trust must be the principle. Writing off all debt would lead to a non-debt society, as no one would trust the debtor to repay. Can be done, but can it be done without harming trade?

The exploitation of the people by governments in the interests of the bankers is a national scandal. Many of the leaders in finance should be in prison.

'I have no idea what you mean by curbing...."Better we work at curbing our present elites than try to change them for one that cannot accept it ought to be curbed." Curbing the Political elite from what? From raping children, starting wars, making sure whistle blowers are given the Luca Brasi? How about putting them in court. Milošević died in prison for lesser crimes and his were bad..'

Curbing their misuse of capital and the nation's resources. We have a chance of that every time an election occurs. Put in a compassionate conservative or realistic socialist government. And of course, curbing them from unjust wars and meddling in other nation's affairs. And purging the paedophiles from parliament and the administration. And rewarding whistleblowers instead of punishing them.

I can see how we can move slowly forward on that in a British Parliament free from the EU. It will be a struggle - but in the EU we have no chance.

frankie said...

Wolfie,
Straight Q, do you smoke the same stuff as Daithi?

" At the moment we are trying to restore power to the politicians in the UK who we can vote out in the next election. "

I will try to go along with you line of thought. So next March Brexit is all done and dusted with the border fudged. What about Stormount? How do you restore power to there Where is the big call on the streets to tell the local Politicians who you voted for to get back to doing their well paid jobs or people like you will vote them out at the next election. When are you going to accept that no matter who you vote for you simply end up with a different cheek of the same arse.

"We can't change the EU government like that, so we need out of the EU."

Well maybe people should have paid more attention to their local MEP's and Brussel's instead of going googley eyed over Google Box and sharing their latest holiday pics on social media. And maybe Europe, EEC, EU..call it what you want wouldn't have been allowed to get away with half of what they have been.

I still don't understand the need to curb anything politicians do that fcuks people over. ...

"Curbing their misuse of capital and the nation's resources. We have a chance of that every time an election occurs. "

Curbing them!!! Wolfie, how much of the islands natural resources can I missue before I get curbed? I am not a greedy man, do you think if I took say 500K from the block grant and missued it for myself that would be ok or would you start curbing my misuse at 50 or 100K

Wolfsbane said...

David Higgins said:

'The British collective government, labour or tory are dishonest with their public on all major decisions. There's never grave consequences.'

I agree. They promise extra NHS money, or Education - and then tell you why that was not possible or even that they have fulfilled the promise in some convoluted way. We expect that, and if it us too egregious we mark them for dismissal in the next election.

The lies about what agreeing to enter the EEC was quite other. It actually changed our control over many things and there was no ability to kick them and their policies out at the next election.

'I would go as far to suggest if the political pro eu element get the decision reversed it would be accepted.'

The only valid way to get it reversed would be another referendum. Than we Brexits could demand another, at the first sign of unforeseen difficulties from staying in the EU.

'Me and you have different ideas of stolen liberty. If there's a relatively fair democratic process, it's the best you can hope for.'

But overturning the ref. without going to the people would not be relatively fair.

How would you respond to a ref. on a UI that passed based on NI becoming part of the Republic, but which actually was meant to incrementally bring the Republic into union with the UK? NI joins the Republic, but maintaining ties with the UK that are gradually extended so that economically the Republic comes into full alignment with the UK, and East-West bodies gradually take on political as well as economic powers. The talk from the top softly prasies the merits of an all-islands union and denigrates those who say they did not sign up for that. Would this be a relatively fair democratic process?

David Higgins said...

Wolfesbane,
I never said overturning the referendum would be fair, I said it wouldn't surprise me if it was accepted. As it was in the 26. I agree with your assessment of the eu. My original point was and remains it makes me laugh when Brit nationalists scream shenanigans when their political procedure is influenced even, by tactics widely accepted and their long, long history of anti democratic means barely merits a mention.

Wolfsbane said...

frankie said:

'Straight Q, do you smoke the same stuff as Daithi?'

Don't do any of that stuff, frankie. Just sober reflection!

'[At the moment we are trying to restore power to the politicians in the UK who we can vote out in the next election.]
I will try to go along with you line of thought. So next March Brexit is all done and dusted with the border fudged. What about Stormount? How do you restore power to there Where is the big call on the streets to tell the local Politicians who you voted for to get back to doing their well paid jobs or people like you will vote them out at the next election. When are you going to accept that no matter who you vote for you simply end up with a different cheek of the same arse.'

The local stuff is sad, but the national stuff is the one that earns the bread. First things first. Then we can decide if we would rather not spend the money we get from Westminster unless we get an Irish Language Act and Gay Marriage or concede such items. We can even decide that the Belfast Agreement is over, and see what each side and the British and Irish governments will do about it. That should sober-up thinking parties. But we have to accept the crap we vote for - when we really want to change it, we have the ballot box.

'[We can't change the EU government like that, so we need out of the EU.]
Well maybe people should have paid more attention to their local MEP's and Brussel's instead of going googley eyed over Google Box and sharing their latest holiday pics on social media. And maybe Europe, EEC, EU..call it what you want wouldn't have been allowed to get away with half of what they have been.'

Indeed - the nation was naive and trusting of its political leaders, who reassured it all along that the EEC/EU was a great idea. A minority opposed it. But finally we persuaded the majority of the nation that we had been right in all our opposition to the EU elite.

'I still don't understand the need to curb anything politicians do that fcuks people over. ...[Curbing their misuse of capital and the nation's resources. We have a chance of that every time an election occurs.]
Curbing them!!! Wolfie, how much of the islands natural resources can I missue before I get curbed? I am not a greedy man, do you think if I took say 500K from the block grant and missued it for myself that would be ok or would you start curbing my misuse at 50 or 100K'

I agree -the elite has gotten away with mass robbery for generations. Such is life. But we are able to upset individual applecarts, to nobble political careers, to snatch back some of our nation's wealth for the people. That bit is what I mean by curbing the elite. Far from ideal, but much better than most nations get it.

Wolfsbane said...

David Higgins said

'I never said overturning the referendum would be fair, I said it wouldn't surprise me if it was accepted. As it was in the 26. I agree with your assessment of the eu.'

Ah, I get you now.

'My original point was and remains it makes me laugh when Brit nationalists scream shenanigans when their political procedure is influenced even, by tactics widely accepted and their long, long history of anti democratic means barely merits a mention.'

Yes, that may be true of many who support Brexit and deplore attempts to overturn it. I can't speak for them. But I have no rosy picture of our British history. Many bad things were done, many anti-democratic things, many wicked things done in pursuit of money.

But the good, honourable things are what I'm trying to hold on to, even as we continue to oppose evil. The UK deserves nothing but God's judgment, but I'm looking for mercy on the masses. To continue in the EU would not be in the interests of the ordinary man and woman.