Thursday, May 10, 2018

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A Doctor In Derry

Dr Anne Mc Closkey, MB, draws on her experience in Derry in a contribution to the debate around the 8th Amendment. 

To work as a doctor in Derry, in an area with according to the City Council’s own figures has 60% child poverty, trying to help people through the worst that this government can inflict upon their lives and human dignity is a very privileged, if at times challenging career.

I spend good part of my time in the surgery helping women control their fertility, manage crisis pregnancies, cope with pregnancy loss or illness, deal with domestic conflict including sexual violence and care for children with often complex medical problems. Through all of this, I can honestly say that in my experience I know of no case where abortion, which is the direct and intentional killing of the preborn child, would have helped. For some of my patients the opposite is the case.

I’m old enough to have lived through the war which was fought on our streets and in our countryside, and know that choice, the decision take a course of action, often depends on factors over which we have only limited control. In a free and just society, it is much easier to choose well.

The abortion debate should never be about criminalisation, but about education, empowerment and support, so that both lives are protected. We who lived through the prison struggles know that criminalisation doesn’t work. In the case of abortion provision, the only criminals are those who profit from an industry which destroys lives, not those whose choices are constrained by poverty or oppression.

As a lifelong Republican, Feminist, Leftie, I’m astonished at the almost unopposed narrative among my erstwhile political allies that a pro-life stance is regressive and anti-woman. It is an analysis which pits women’s freedom and progress against her maternity, and her children. It erroneously, or deceptively, conflates her health and wellbeing with her “choice” to destroy her child.

The fact that the repeal campaign in Ireland is being funded by some of the most right-wing and monetarist institutions on the planet underlines that this debate is not really about women’s health and wellbeing, but more their supremacist priorities-a cull on the poor, the disabled, ethnic minorities, those who are deemed not truly human. Only free people thought slavery was a good idea, and only those who have already been born advocate for abortion.

It is an uncomfortable fact for the repeal campaign that Ireland is one of the safest places worldwide for mothers to give birth. The sepsis which took the life of Ms Halappanavar is the leading cause of maternal mortality in Britain, and killed five pregnant women in 2015 there. Even had this lady’s care been exemplary, which it was not, she may not have lived. But the law is clear, that in her case, the delivery of her 16 week gestation child was appropriate and legal, not a direct abortion but life-saving treatment for the mother. Such procedures are standard medical care in all Irish hospitals.

Shockingly, of the two million abortions carried out in Britain in the last decade, only sixteen were one under ground C , that is to save the life of the mother in a medical emergency, whereas 98% are for risk to the physical or mental health of the mother, which translates as abortion on demand –one in five of all pregnancies.

Robust research now shows that mental health problems, including completed suicide are many times commoner in women who have undergone abortion than in those who carry their babies to term.

We can rail against human biology, and the design which forms and nurtures the genetically new human offspring inside the mother’s womb, but we can’t change it.

With the development of ultrasound and MRI scanning, we now have a window on the developing baby which was not available in the past. The overwhelmingly beautiful story of how each and every one of us was formed is googleable! Ignorance is no longer an excuse.

The narrative that the new baby is merely a part of the mother before birth is biological balderdash. Two half cells, one from each parent come together at conception to form a new and genetically distinct human embryo. It’s where each one of us began. If the developing child is part of the woman’s body, and subject to her autonomy alone, what then is a father?

The narrative that men are not co-creators of new life and equal partners in parenthood, but mere inseminators, and their preborn children only “tissue”, a “parasite”, a “choice”, is one which many men do not accept.

Abortion is also a tool beloved of those who abuse and sexually exploit women and children, including for profit. Recent high profile court cases on both sides of the Atlantic demonstrate the deeply misogynistic ideas about women and their value in society which have been tolerated for too long.

Of course, this referendum is not about the hard cases so beloved of a morally bankrupt media and political class. Not about the “fatal foetal abnormalities” (to use that inaccurate and offensive term,) not about rape, incest, not about the rare and emotive scenarios without which the repeallers have no case.

The question being put to the Irish people on 25th May is very simple. They will be asked if they consent to the removal of all constitutional protection for unborn children.

We have been told that what is envisaged is abortion on demand up to 12 weeks gestation, and for as yet unspecified health grounds up to the time of viability, that is 24 weeks. This referendum is not about trusting women-it’s about trusting politicians.

It has been estimated that over 100,000 people in Ireland are alive today because of our laws protecting the dignity of human life. How many of these are our friends, colleagues, family members? The one hundred million females missing worldwide is testament to a failed ideology.

There is a well-funded and highly influential lobby in this country waging a battle for hearts and minds. Republicans recognise that the only legitimate authority comes from the people. This referendum has people are more engaged and angry than they have been in a long time. In every town and village across the land, a truly grassroots movement is building to protect our people, and our constitution. A deep cultural regard for mothers and children is deep in our psyche as a nation. I have canvassed door to door for weeks on end now, and the contempt for the government is palpable. People understand that the political class who gave us austerity, bail-outs, water charges, homelessness, a shambolic excuse for a health service, are now trying to revoke the right to life of future generations in an attempt to balance the books, and they are outraged.

This is the most important civil rights question of our time; whether to remove all constitutional protection for the preborn from our constitution, and allow politicians to decide their fate, or to keep the Eighth, and afford the right to life to all equally. Irish people in the 26 counties have the protection of a referendum. Shamefully no political party has campaigned for we northern Irish people to have a vote on this issue, ach sin scéal eile.

We Irish don’t have to follow the failed models of other nations, but, “relying on our own genius and traditions” can forge a better way. The most basic right, upon which all other rights depend, is the right to life.

Our revenge should be the laughter of all our children-not just that of the planned, the privileged and the perfect.


Anne Mc Closkey works as a GP in Derry. Lifelong republican and community activist, mother and grandmother, stood as Independent candidate in 2016 Assembly election, polling over 3k 1st preference votes, founder member of Cherish all the Children Equally, a republican progressive organisation founded to give pro-life socialists and Republicans a voice and to campaign against repeal of the constitutional right to life in 8th amendment.

58 comments :

grouch said...

very well said. and they are running scared - hence the decision by google to restrict advertising on 8th amendment. as for the left - they are a joke here now. this referendum is unique in history because we the ordinary people are up against.... are u ready..... ALL the political parties (including spin feign) All the mainstream media All the big propaganda corporations - google facebook twitter - All the ngos All the pseudo charities like the soros funded SHAMNASTY MULTINATIONAL -literally the entire power matrix are throwing their weight behind abortion and the people on the street are beginning to smell a rat. we simply want a country where the children of the nation are protected from conception - where its parents can afford to buy a home, where it will be defended and allowed to grow and be loved until its 18 years of age, where if any tragedy befalls its family, the nation is there to protect it. this is exactly what the globalist overlord class do not want. getting the irish to vote in abortion will be one of the elites greatest wins and a sure sign of the death of the ancient irish nation. spin feign will be aborted after the referendum - win or lose. no one gave their lives up for a party of globalist trannylords abortionists and nation wreckers.

now whod have thought these guys, just landed here and enjoying our benefits would be out supporting the culling of our children -

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcwUko8W4AARPly.jpg

the cheek of this lad.can u imagine the decent paddies who left here in their hundreds of thousands during the 50s and 60s doing such a thing in the countries they went to - they got no dole either or homes handed to them. they broke their backs on building sites. - for what, for what - so the third world could come here and tell us to kill our kids - that same generation gave pennies to the black babies!!!! the black babies !!!!! we're going down the toilet here folks. u nordies have to do more over the next two weeks.

wolfe tone said...

An attempt to "balance the books" is a spot on summary. If the rulers can encourage the peasants to cull the 'useless eaters' then it will save monies for our rulers in the long run. Monies they'd rather spend on their lifestyles and their chosen kids. It's ironic that we were horrified when we were taught that the Nazis had a vision of a fit and strong race where everyone was fit to work for the nation I.e all weak(disabled) humans would be eventually exterminated for the greater good and yet that train is fast heading our way. Ruling by fooling is apt indeed.

AM said...

A good piece Anne,

yet we are still left with the question of who shall have the choice to deny the woman the choice not to remain pregnant?

As for biology, we challenge its effects all the time - it is part of human culture to medically intervene and prevent nature talking its course.

What I will be voting for on the 25th is the right of each woman to make the decision for herself. That I might ultimately disagree with the decision made should not inhibit her freedom in any way.

I enjoy your pieces. Unlike some other contributions, they are refreshingly free from rant yet passionate.

Steve R said...

Anne,

If the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest do you still wish it to go to term?

Henry JoY said...

Well articulated piece Anne.

Alas the culture has changed dramatically over our lifetime. Culture and values reciprocally influence each other and inevitably shape a society's destiny. The die has been cast; over our lifetime we have removed the constitutional impediments to divorce, decriminalised homosexuality and allowed for gay marriage.
Its also a fact that a substantial cohort of our citizens have come to see abortion as a legitimate form of birth control. Whether that cohort succeeds or not in repealing the 8th on this occasion remains to be seen. But like other social and moral shifts its coming is almost inevitable.

grouch said...

henry joy - listen to urself - "a substantial cohort of our citizens have come to see abortion as a legitimate form of birth control. "

i give up.

anthony - a lot of ur comments on this topic are unrefreshingly free from logic, rationale, compassion and indeed could come from SOROS SHAMNASTY MULTINATIONAL or worse spin feign spokespeople.

AM said...

Who should we trust to choose - this clown or our daughters?

Henry JoY said...

grouch,

yes, that's the essence of what this debate is about, at least as I see it.

As I've acknowledged to you before, I get it that some people see this as being about 'murdering babies'. It really is a contentious issue and some people hold very passionate positions. I'd also hold that people ought be respected for acting from conscience. I have no problem with that and can even allow for some excesses in their emotional responses.

In the end of the day whilst accepting the outcome of the up-coming referendum, whatever the result, my preference is to allow a woman the right to freely choose (without constraint) to end her pregnancy up to even 20 weeks.
I'd also support extra intervention and support for any women who want to carry to term and offer their delivered child for adoption.

AM said...

Henry Joy,

if Repeal wins the referendum legislation will follow, permitting abortion. If it fails legislation will not pass. Either way we are still going to have abortions. Freedom to travel is not prohibited and women will still go to Liverpool or wherever or they will have pills sent. They will also continue to buy the morning after pill.

No woman should be denied the right to carry to full term. It should be her choice.

In town there is the constant presence of Repeal stalls: we were at an art exhibition today in support of Repeal. I have gone around trying to find pro Eighth stalls to photograph for the Old Drogheda Society but can get none. I anticipated a greater presence on the streets. Talking to the Repeal people today at a stall I asked if they get any abuse from the public: they said other than the odd religious whack job, they get a very positive response.

Barry Gilheany said...

Anne McCloskey

172,000 women from the Republic of Ireland obtained abortions in outside the jurisdiction the vast majority in the Pagan England and Wales that the Irish Religious Right so demonises but which actually produces English solutions to Irish problems from both sides of the border. So how many "lives" has the Eighth Amendment actually saved.

You provide no evidence for the existence of an "abortion industry" and its role in backing the Repeal side. The demand to remove the Eighth Amendment is powered by the lived experience of Irish women who have lived with the shame and burden of unwanted pregnancies not by conspiratorial and shady foreign bodies looking to shape Ireland in their image in the way that the US Moral Majority inspired Pro-Life Amendment Campaign did in the early 1980s. Repealing the Eight Amendment will be a genuine blow for Irish modernity and freedom without a shot being fired bomb exploded.

You mention a correlation between adverse mental health of women and decisions to have abortions. I presume this refers to the Post Abortion Syndrome of pro-life invention; a condition which no reputable medical body recognises.

As I say to all pro-life people, Anne you are entitled to your beliefs and to live by them in your private life. You have not right to demand in a secular democracy that the State imposes them on those who do not share them which on the 25th May will prove to be a majority of the electorate of the Republic of Ireland.

Henry JoY said...

AM,

great to hear the positive update from your side of the country. Sounds as if there'll be a strong majority for repeal along the east coast, particularly in the urban areas. Out west, especially in the rural communities things are somewhat more parochial. My sense is that its not something my neighbours want to openly discuss. Whatever their opinions I haven't met anyone yet who's tried to engage me on the issue. Indeed, I was chatting with one man on Saturday for a few minutes; our conversations usually quickly go to the political. On this occasion it almost seemed as if there was some unconscious contract that we'd speak about anything except 'the eighth'. 'Elephants in room' aren't uncommon in the 'rural backwoods' and so its not so easy to call them save but to generalise that these communities tend to be politically and socially more conservative, embracing change a lot more slowly than the mainstream.

I'd still be very hopeful though that a liberal tolerance will prevail and that repeal will be successfully carried even if a few rural constituencies do indeed reject the proposed change to the constitution.

grouch said...

"You provide no evidence for the existence of an "abortion industry" and its role in backing the Repeal side. "

once again 'doctor' Gilheany chooses to ignore the reality of the abortion MEGA industry in backing the Repeal side. also, is George Soros a philanthropist in your eyes?

then, like the equally mendacious 'doctor' Grimes whos article from the irish times was published here a while ago you try and claim that depression and adverse mental health affects caused by abortion are 'invented' by pro-lifers and that no 'reputable medical body recognises' them.

okay you guys, ive had enough. ur in favour of repealing the eighth? fine - I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT - NOT AN IOTA OF A PROBLEM. NOT ONE.

what i do have a problem with is the CONSTANT LYING, the BLATANT AND DELIBERATE LYING from you guys. lets just stick to this bullshit about women not suffering after an abortion.

and you guys try and portray urselves as being on the side of women, as womens righters and that we on the no side are some dark caricature of the worst type of woman oppressor.

ive bad news for you guys - 'doctors' like barry and 'doctor' grimes. are you ready? its this - undecided voters, both men and women are becoming INCREASINGLY SICKENED by the level of DESPERATE ARGUMENTS AND PATHETIC PROPAGANDA emanating from the yes side. this argument about women not suffering after abortions is about the most awful DELIBERATE LIE you guys have come up with so far. to say its anti woman is an understatement. the odious doctor Grimes in his pathetic pro-abortion propaganda piece republished here a few weeks ago actually tried to convince us that women feel 'relief' after an abortion. - do you honestly think ANYONE except for the most feeble minded propaganda victim will accept that? do you not actually think that this nonsense might back-fire - which it is(thankfully). you guys have CONTINUOUSLY LIED throughout this campaign and not only that, the real sickener is you try and portray us as the ones lying. its just nauseating now at this stage. your whole campaign was kicked off with the mega lie of SAVITA. thankfully most irish people are wide to this now - mainly thanks to the obstetricians who have highlighted this and have in fact asked for the pro abortion medics to desist perpetuating the SAVITA LIE. however, im going off topic - i want to stay with the canard that women dont suffer after abortions - what planet are you guys living on and whats more - what do you really think of women? seriously - what is your opinion of women if you think they dont suffer terribly after something as traumatic as an abortion? you must think they got their hearts aborted as well as their child. do you think all the post abortion counsellors who get training in this field sit in their offices all day twiddling their thumbs staring at the walls wishing they hadnt wasted all that time training for a job that was a total mistake as nobody avails of their services? do you think organisations like rachels vineyard hire actors to come in and avail of their services. do you honestly believe your own bullshit?

grouch said...

part two
you are the real denigraters of women by coming out with such awful nonsense, and then you quote so called 'reputable medical bodies' to back your nonsense up. you're actually quoting TYRANNICAL organisations to back your lies up but the great thing is - ordinary people, especially undecideds are seeing through the web of lies you guys are spreading.

we support women in crises pregnacies and we support the children of the ancient Irish nation, the children who more than once in our history went through HELL. you are (some of you) walking blindly into a culture of absolute mayhem, off which u urselves will be the ultiamte victims eventually, but unlike other tyrannies in history - YOU GUYS/GALS WILL HAVE VOTED FOR IT!!!!!!!!!! you are victims of non-stop propaganda, but not as much a victim as the children who will be thrown into cold sterile buckets desperately kicking and gasping for life. this is your notion of womens rights.

now just for you 'doctor' Gilheany, here is one of your friends in Planned Parenthood haggling over the prices of the organs and body parts of aborted children. you see IT IS AN INDUSTRY, A MEGA INDUSTRY and u know it. now i guarantee you this 'lady' doesnt suffer from depression over abortions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjCs_gvImyw


doctor gilheany - you're either aware that you're lying over depression and abortion or a victim of propaganda , but as ur a 'doctor' - i fear its the former.

as for you undecideds - you can vote for the slaughter of the innocents if you want - thats called living in a "DEMOCRACY"!!!! thats what our founding fathers went out and fought for - for you to vote to kill the children of the ancient Gaelic nation.

AM said...

Henry Joy,

I expect the 8th to be repealed. But like yourself I know that it is not a rerun of the same sex marriage referendum. This time around, there are people who supported same sex marriage but will not back abortion. They are not god botherers just out to tell others how to live their lives but people who genuinely feel that hurt and harm is caused by abortion. What I have noticed is that that the pro-life camp is tending to rant which suggests a bit of panic. So they might sense it is not going as well as they had hoped. Once the bishop appears the case is almost as good as lost. The wiser pro-life people have sought to keep the clerics away. I hope TPQ has contributed something to public understanding by providing a platform for both sides of the argument.

wolfe tone said...

AM, it seems you havnt the ability to see through the fog of this debate? To suggest that the anti abortionists side are in a bit of a panic is a bit curious when you analyse how the pro abortionists side lobbied the govt to censor social media I.e it seems that the pro abortionists were in a bit of a panic and needed a helping hand from their cynical govt. One must wonder what they feared from social media? Were they afraid people would see the visual evidence of what they were being asked to vote for I.e the remains of babies? Censorship is kinda fascist don't ye think and yet the the apparently caring 'good side' championed it. Makes you wonder what the 'trust women' side had to fear; they certainly didn't trust women or men for that matter when it comes to social media?
I would say that the anti abortionists, far from being in a panic, are rather more concerned and roused about this issue and thus more outspoken, whereas the pro abortionists are too busy patting each other on the back thinking they are some sort Martin Luther King. Jesus wept.
Btw, the Claire Byrne show last night was an eye opener and I for one would welcome a 'no' vote result for obvious reasons, but also to wipe the arrogance right out of Mary Lou. One things for sure if there is a no vote it will sure scatter the horses within her party.

Henry JoY said...

AM,

indeed, heightened emotional responses are often an indicator for lack of confidence. Tony de Mello went as far as advising that we should consider whether or not we've been brainwashed any time we experience strong, intense and reactionary arousal. He seemed to suggest that we're generally somewhat in conflict with reality at such times.

Yes, TPQ has contributed to the discourse. Dr McCloskey's contributions have been thought provoking and caring in essence. Of course we've seen some rants from those who have become subject to "emotional hijacking" too.

Somewhat related; yesterday on my daily stroll in a nearby forest amenity I bumped into a lady with whom on occasion I have ended up having the odd conversation which usually tends towards the metaphysical. We exchanged views on the upcoming vote. She confidently and respectfully asserted her position and intention to vote 'No'. And I with similar decorum revealed my intention to vote 'Yes'. I came away from the exchange with an easy feeling; an empathetic understanding for someone who didn't necessarily view this issue as I do.

There's something refreshing to be said about making a point rather than scoring one!

grouch said...

u obviously werent watching rte claire byrne last night - a disaster for yes and the mandarins in rte are squirming today and yes people blaming rte for not preparing the show properly!!!!

AM said...

Wolfe Tone,

What fog?

The issues and divide are pretty clear to me and I think I have discerned them sufficiently accurately, seeing neither the devil or Global capitalism as the moving force behind Repeal nor the Vatican as the guiding hand behind Retain. To me, it is a very polarised debate because individual people feel so strongly about it.

A good point nevertheless. They have no place calling for any smothering of discussion on the net. But it does not strike me as a panic and more the type of dirty trick that both sides in this sort of fractious debate tend to resort to in their one one-upmanship. The Left will censor at the first opportunity and hardly need to be panicked. They might try to panic the rest of us into believing there is a need to censor.

I am never influenced by the images the pro-life lobby put out. I think it is emotive just as I would think the same of putting out an image of the lifeless body of a hanged woman who took her own life after being raped but was denied an abortion. But censorship is too dangerous a weapon to allow to fall into the hands of the pro-choice camp. People can always choose not to look at the pictures of whatever.

I want to consider all the arguments, except the religious one. I don’t care what somebody imagines the Unicorn might think of abortion, whether pro or anti.

The Repeal camp seem very confident whereas the Retain camp not so. I suppose the opinion polls make that naturally so. When I see a rant or name calling I immediately suspect panic. Mattie McGrath lost it when he began a rant about Peter Boylan lying but so did Brid Smith when she did the same in relation to Maria Steen on Claire Byrne Live.

Censorship is invariably wrong but by no means the preserve of the fascists. And my own understanding of it leads me to feel conservatives provide a more natural home for fascism that liberalism does. On the issue of fascistic tactics, the intimidation of women seeking or giving advice at the Marie Stopes Centre, for which Bernadette Smith was convicted, or the thrusting of Rosary beads into the faces of young girls while screaming religious gunk is a salutary lesson that fascistic traits can be promiscuous.

Mary Lou McDonald performed very well last night but so too did Maria Steen. In fact each side seemed to have two each that were quite capable and one each that were not quite as good. Despite the rancour there was a lot to learn from it. I think Maria Steen did best, but I don’t agree with her. It was one of those debates where the potential for informing public understanding would have been greater had there been no audience. And there is no point complaining that the no camp in the audience were cheering. They were all at it.

I am very receptive to the pro-life argument providing it is not religious or rant. When people start ranting I stop listening.

I have a 17 year old daughter and at some point she might be faced with a decision. Who should I trust to make the choice for her: me, you, the bishop or her? Every time, without fail, I will trust her above the rest. I don’t like abortion, never have. But I imagine the women who opt for it like it even less. I will be voting to allow them the choice and nothing more. I will not be voting to allow me the choice so that I may deny it to her.

AM said...

Henry Joy,

rants get us no where. I think the pro life side when it avoids rants and religion can make good points which are well worth considering. I think the most polished performance last night came from Maria Steen. I wish she would write for TPQ as I would also like Mary Lou to. As you say the point needs made not scored.

I represented a member of the Pro Life movement a while back in a labour dispute with her employers. I joked at the time it was a pity they both couldn't lose. Didn't stop me fighting her case to the best of my ability. While I can't brook the religious aspect to the Iona Institute, I think Maria Steen was right last night when she said there was a real need for identifying what really divides both camps. I thought Brid Smith was out of order. I couldn't see what Maria Steen was lying about.

grouch said...

there you go again -" the type of dirty trick that both sides in this sort of fractious debate tend to resort to in their one one-upmanship." as if the pro-life side could do something like get the globalist behemoths of google facebook and twitter on their side -ffs!!!! aslo - could you please list the dirty tricks from the no side. i called you out before when you said both sides are lying and you failed to come up with any proof - save for doctor Grimes abominable piece of propaganda which i demolished fairly lively. if u say getting the behemoths of global communication to stifle the pro-life campaign is not panic then tell me what is. they're shitting themselves.the spin doctors are in a tizzy over last nights disaster on rte. so prepare urselves for bottom of the barrel stuff in the next ten days.

"Mattie McGrath lost it when he began a rant about Peter Boylan lying but so did Brid Smith when she did the same in relation to Maria Steen on Claire Byrne Live. "

but boylan is lying, thats the important thing, and if i may say, its a lie worthy of a lot more than a rant.

im glad you brought up the marie stopes clinics. they had 400 botched abortions in just two months recently and in 2015 there were 2,600 serious incidents reported. thats what happens in slaughterhoses - they're messy brutal places and anyone who has researched this, be they pro or anti, cant deny this. the children who survive the first attempt at abortion are the ones who suffer the most. but the big scandal for marie stopes is , get ready, it paid staff bonuses for encouraging women to have abortions. staff members felt, and i quote, 'encouraged' that mothers to be had abortions. why? why do you think - because its business. do the maths - one in five british babies are aborted - thats big business but so called experts like doctor gilheany deny this. now tell me again its the girls thrusting rosary beads who are the fascists one more time wont ya.
- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4998810/Britain-s-largest-abortion-clinic-paid-staff-bonuses.html

as for the spare parts industry which feeds off the abortion industry - this is all "healthcare" isnt it.

i think u are in the minority if u think mlmd came across well last night. im biased and despise the mutant but she came across as completely patronising and her parting shot of being pro-life got the reaction from the audience it deserved, but not what she expected when she was practicing it with her spin doctors earlier. they have only one tactic - the hard cases, and its not working. people know what they are voting for next week. 97% of babies aborted in britain are healthy babies to healthy mothers. same in france. same in spain.

once upon a time slavery was legal. it was a plantation owners 'choice' to have irish and black slaves. not anymore. ireland will not vote for this tyranny and if she does she will be the first country in the world to do so and will have redefined herself before the world if she does. this vote has global significance and that is no understatement. a yes vote will be a disaster for unborn babies in other european countries too, not just our own, who are next on the list of the globalist tyranny.

finally - u all claim to be pro-choice and we are anti-choice. do you have any other choices for an unwanted pregnancy other than the brutality oulined above in marie stopes clinics. us anti-choicers have loads of choices, but u pro-choicers only seem to have one. kind of orwellian that.

Barry Gilheany said...

Grouch

To be pro-choice is to want the widest possible array of informed choices to be available to women with difficult or unwanted pregnancies. To be pro-choice is to oppose any coercion of pregnant women into either abortion, forcing them to carry through pregnancy or to give up their babies. To be pro-choice is also to support a woman's decision to have a C-section or natural birth based on proper information and counselling.

You keep talking about the "lies" told by pro-choice about the is death of Savita. Well the fact is that she requested an abortion because of the danger to her physical health which was refused because of the supposed faint sound of a foetal heartbeat.

Lastly, you as a Shoah/Holocaust denier are the last person with the mandate to accuse those of us on the pro-choice side of lying or manipulating statistics.

Henry JoY said...

Watched the Claire Beirne show on the player. I wonder what impact it had on the undecided voter, my guess is that it won't have been much help to those still on the fence. I agree also with AM's take that it would have been the better of not having a live audience.

In the end of the day this issue for most is about choosing the least palatable choice. If we didn't have a near neighbour with whom we have relatively easy and cheap access to, and with whom we share a common language this amendment would be carried by a landslide. However, the reality is that many are content to export those citizens who need these services and we have to listen to cold-hearted, supercilious moralising ice-queens like Maria Steen fighting a rearguard campaign on behalf of an already defeated conservative Catholicism.

wolfe tone said...

AM, I would say the whole debate about abortion has become quote foggy for some. For example you claim Mary Lou did well in the televised debate but as far as I could see she was woeful and kept looking at the doctor fella beside her to step in and take up the slack when opposing points were made. Alas it's obvious people see things differently and perhaps strive to see what our bias wants. For me Mary Lou was trying to act all presidential but miscalculated that her opponents were going to be well armed in opposing information.
I have two daughters and they are strong minded and independent. We often have debates between us about various things and they would have the opinion that abortion is cruel but sometimes neccessary under very strict conditions. One of my daughters had been, in her words "60-40 in favour of a no vote" but after viewing the Claire Byrne show she declared that she was 100% for the no vote. I.e that cleared the 'fog' for her.
What I found interesting in the debate was the fact that the pro abortion lobby could've narrowed the proposed abortion legislation towards dealing with the 'hard cases' they so emotively go on about I.e the rape of an eleven yr old for example, but chose not to but rather they opted to widen the issue.

wolfe tone said...

Btw, the senator that chaired the so called Peoples forum was critical of the Claire Byrne show afterwards, which should tell you all you need to know as to whose case seemed more plausible. As for mattie McGrath giving off etc, well everyone knows that's what he does. But his point was still valid I.e how did the she and her forum not get 1 doctor to attend the forum and speak on behalf of the no side? The RTÉ audience seemed to have more medical practitioners against the Repeal than for it and yet the Forum couldn't get any apparently? It sure does back up the claims by the No side that the State via the Forum was deceiving and lying and endeavouring to sideline the No side in order to convince and steer the public a certain way. Coupled with a biased media and the very helpful social media companies it is obvious the No campaign is up against it. In saying that this referendum reminds me of the Brexit and Trump polls I.e we were fed the same headlines I.e" polls still point to a win for......" in both cases and yet the result was the opposite. And just like those previous polls it was obvious the winning side seemed to be able to get big rallies onto the street which the media ignored and dismissed as any sort of gauge. The losing side in those polls also managed to get the celebs out but that didn't sway to a lot of people either I.e the peasants have seen through very rich rock and film stars pretending they care about the peasants. Will lightning strike again? Hopefully. Perhaps the Yes side should be encouraged to roll out saint Bono to show the masses how they should vote as that would definitely make people come a decision very quickly!

grouch said...

barry - i know u guys have no option but to cover-up the extreme medical negligence in the savita case and dress it up as a woman dying because she was denied an abortion. i mean if u admit the truth the whole deck of cards comes tumbling down. sorry - but no-one is buying that anymore. the 3 reports are there for anyone to read if they so wish -

http://www.thejournal.ie/savita-inquest-the-coroners-9-recommendations-876864-Apr2013/

http://www.thelifeinstitute.net/am_cms_media/uploaded/s/0e5692512_1481065203_savita-halappanavar-hse-report.pdf

http://www.thelifeinstitute.net/am_cms_media/uploaded/p/0e5692511_1481065203_patient-safety-investigation-uhg.pdf


also, mainly thanks to savita people are now aware that children are aborted all the time here when there is a threat to the mothers life. the obstetricians have made that clear in the last few weeks. i will post the letter in next comment.

barry, u have never made one sound argument in the last three months on this issue, legalese gobbledeegook and savita nonsense is not working and you have just proved it by bringing up the Shoah business nonsense. talk of desperation!!!!! u claim to have a phd, but im afraid we wouldnt even let you in to our hedge school here in saordonia. and just for you, here's some information on the "famine" - and please show it to ur shoah business buddies -

https://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2015/03/irish-genocide-imperialism-rothschild-bank-and-food-confiscation

grouch said...

here read this -

“To the Irish public,

As former Chairs of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, we have been horrified at some of the statements made by colleagues during this referendum campaign in relation to maternal care in Ireland.

We are particularly appalled by the comments of Dr Rhona Mahony in the Together for Yes campaign video where she states “In Ireland today, we play medical roulette with women’s lives”, and those of Dr Peter Boylan in the same video where he claims the Eighth Amendment “makes it difficult for us to treat women with compassion and give them the proper care that they need”.

These comments are simply not true and are nothing less than a serious misrepresentation of the Irish maternal health system. We call on them to withdraw these statements.

Each of us has had extensive experience over around 40 years in the specialty of obstetrics and gynaecology. In addition, in our privileged position as Chairs of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, we have fought to improve the standards of care for mothers and their newborn babies.

Ireland is a very safe country in which to be pregnant. The Eighth Amendment does not prevent Irish women receiving care of the highest possible standard. This is why our maternal death rate is so low. Recent Maternal Death Enquiry reports confirm that Ireland is one of the safest places in the world to be pregnant.

Not one of our colleagues should ever be permitted to use the Eighth Amendment as an excuse for not treating a woman. Each one of us can stand over the care we have provided in our careers. Four of us who practised in this jurisdiction have carried out necessary surgery which resulted in termination of pregnancy in order to save and protect Irish women. We had no difficulty in so doing, and the Eighth Amendment did not prevent us from performing an ethical and medically indicated procedure.

On May 25th, Irish people will be asked to vote on whether the right to life of an unborn baby should be withdrawn. If the answer is Yes, it is the stated intention of government to introduce legislation to enable ending the life of a perfectly healthy growing baby, in a perfectly healthy pregnant woman. That is a matter of conscience for each voter.

What this referendum is not about, and what it has never been about, is maternal healthcare. That some campaigners have chosen to engage in a campaign to raise unnecessary fears for maternal health in the electorate is deeply regrettable.

Yours sincerely,

Prof John Bonnar MD FRCPI FRCOG FTCD, Former Chairman, Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

Dr Eamon McGuinness MA FRCPI FRCOG, Former Chairman, Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

Dr. Conor Carr MA FRCPI FRCOG, Former Chairman, Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

Dr James Clinch MD FRCOG, Former Chairman, Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

Dr Michael O’Hare MD FRCPI FRCOG, Former Chairman Institute of Obstetricians & Gynaecologists”

AM said...

Wolfe Tone.
For some for sure. Just like most issues the more widely they are disputed. And clarity comes to very few. Those claiming to have reached it are who we might advisedly be most cautious about. Fog/confusion is the often first step in any journey of intellectual exploration. My view of it is not foggy even though many things have yet to be defined clearly. At what point a foetus becomes a child, I can’t be clear about that. I am absolutely clear in my mind it is not a child at 12 weeks. That doesn’t make my view right, merely that it is uncluttered as a result of shedding what has not made sense and constructing what does.
“Alas it's obvious people see things differently and perhaps strive to see what our bias wants.”
No reason for alas: seems to me a fillip for diversity that we see things differently. We see what our bias wants without having to strive. It is more important to acquire the ability to see that the opponent of what we prefer, might have made the more polished case. I think that happened with Maria Steen. Henry Joy saw it in a different way. Nothing wrong with that.
Your daughter should feel accomplished to have reached her own conclusion based on how she interpreted what she saw. She can hardly be faulted for having her own position. If my daughter was to opt for No after reflecting on what she took out of the Claire Byrne show, she would have taken no flak here for it. The daughters are not the challenge: it is the parents. I don’t want to vote for the choice to decide that my daughter or yours should have no choice. If you vote (and I am only assuming here for the sake of discussion) No, you end up seeking to deny my daughter and your own two any choice in the matter. In my view the best thing to do is – whatever the result of their decision: to terminate or continue – let them have that choice rather you or I have it.

I think it is important to widen the debate away from the hard cases because it is about more than that. Hard cases can’t be avoided but they are not the totality of the discussion.

Henry JoY said...

'grouch'

yes, Savita died of a result of medical negligence, yet none of us can say for certain to what degree the pro-life culture, which may or may not have existed in Galway University Hospital, impacted.
The fact is the unfortunate woman asked for a termination and was refused one. Had there been no constitutional ambiguity, and given the propensity for litigation that permeates society nowadays, I'd hazard a guess that the poor woman would still be alive but for the 8th.

Another fact, a majority of obstetricians favour and advise repeal of the 8th. I'm not suggesting, god forbid, that everyone will agree with expert advice. I'll leave people make their own minds up and live with the consequences.

Henry JoY said...

AM,

no doubt Ms Steen is competent and articulate. Kathy Sheridan in today's Irish Times whilst not naming her sees the same arrogance that I allude to. Link to her piece "Tone of No side no more humble than in 1983" here.

And an interesting piece about 'ensoulment' or "Abortion debate: When does the human person come into being?" by Patsy McGarry here.

AM said...

Wolfe Tone,

you have a point. I might vote No now after Sir Bob has come out for Yes!

AM said...

Wolfe Tone,

until your comment I had completely forgotten what it was Mattie McGrath was ranting about. It was lost in the rant. This is why it is important to have the arguments made so that we can consider them on their merits rather than being rendered unconscious by the rant.

The No camp are up against it, no doubt. For the most part I imagine that is the inevitable outcome of the decline of clerical power and influence. Child rape has irreparably damaged the reputation of the clerics. There is a lot of religious sentiment driving the Yes Campaign although it would be very foolish to try and reduce to it to the Church trying to hold back the tide. When bishops weigh in they look daft and the No campaign senses that it is best not to have it clerical fronted. I have noticed what I see as a quite deliberate emphasis on the secular ground rather than on souls and that type of nonsense.

A professor at Trinity told me that while he supports Repeal, there are many people who backed the same sex marriage referendum but who can't support Repeal. So it makes for an interesting outcome. The thing is, abortions are going to continue with or without the referendum and after it in the same numbers even if Repeal fails. Many women want it and are not going to be put off by an adverse referendum result. Society will still be faced with the question of how to deal with that issue.

wolfe tone said...

AM, i am in no way religious, in fact I would view myself as hostile to the clerics. However I am of the opinion that morals are not solely the property of churches I.e we should all have morals and don't need the churches to tell us how we should conduct ourselves. In saying that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. Alas, it seems that some folk are blinded so much that if it was the case that the church were advocating abortion they'd oppose it.
One further point concerning the Claire Byrne debate: when your woman Maria steen was highlighting an issue that wasn't in the proposed legislation she was told she was wrong by Mary Lou and the pro abortion doctor beside her. However she stood her ground and asked them to point out where it is in the document I.e put up or shut up. After a pause Mary Lou/the doctor remarked words to the effect that it may not be in any of the headings but it was there. Again Steen asked them to point it out and they ignored her. To me that was their chance to put Maria Steen in her box and they didn't or more to the case they couldn't I.e they knew she had them. The salient point for me is that Maria Steen was highlighting that this proposal legislation could and would be interpreted in a very different way by the pro abortionists despite the sweet and apparently caring words of Mary Lou etc. For those of us in the North, we are well aware of the fine words of politicians and their promises and what they amount to. Once bitten twice shy.

grouch said...

henry joy. please read the reports. she did not die because she was refused an abortion. the child in her womb had NOTHING to do with the reason she died. this is not up for debate any longer. its a very simple FACT. please go find another case to push for abortion because this one is not what your looking for.
as for you claiming the majority of obstetricians are in favour of repealing, well im afraid that is another whopper from the increasingly desperate dr boylan (less than a third were polled - i wonder which third! i will post link later), but not as big a whopper as his claim that the 3 month old baby is not fully formed. my question to you is - why is he telling so many porkies.

also henry, i for one am glad there is a 'pro-life culture' in UCH galway, and would think thats what hospitals are supposedly all about. i mean would you rather go to a pro-death hospital?

finally, the great SAVITA LIE courtesy of the cultural marxist clique in the Irish Times has back-fired in a colossal way. the general public are aware now THAT BABIES LIVES ARE ENDED WHEN THERE IS A THREAT TO THE MOTHERS LIFE - THANKS TO SAVITA!!!!!! talk about an own goal. so i guess i owe u a big thanks after all miss killy holland.

grouch said...

here is the link henry

https://twitter.com/Savethe8thInfo/status/996729195010064389?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23996729195010064389


as ive been saying all along - they have one tactic - deception, but as if thats not bad enough, they accuse us of lying all the time. the question is this - how do they get away with it - answer, when the media of ur country is OWNED, by globalist bilderberg oligarchs. ur on the wrong side people. just like when we were kids looking back at the civil war and wondering how irishmen could betray the cause, kids will be dong the same in the future. vote no.

sean bres said...

I have yet to read the comments but this is a brilliant article from Anne McCloskey.

sean bres said...

Having read the comments, the points made by Wolfe Tone and Grouch are most salient, in particular those of Grouch — whose broad thrust, though startling in its approach, is on the money. Why are more people not seeing that the abortion agenda is being driven by vested power? Just one other thing stands out for me from the pro-abortion commentary. The idea we have no soul is correct, but only to this extent: you don’t have a soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body. Indeed it is this — our soul and humanity — that vested power hopes to undermine. I can only hope that those in Ireland able to vote on this matter can see through the conditioning they are being subjected to relentlessly. One thing for certain is that this is far from a balanced and democratic referendum campaign — the bias is glaringly obvious. Like Brexit and Trump, let us hope that the elite power matrix and its deceitful ambitions again come undone.

AM said...

Wolfe Tone,

That is surely a rule underpinning how we conduct our business – “morals are not solely the property of churches”. A Church should no more decide morality for someone than a football club Nor can the law set morality. At the heart of your statement is a core principle of moral diversity. Morality is the product of human society not something externally imposed and evolves or changes over time. The former bishop of Edinburgh, Richard Holloway, I find very good on this sort of issue.

Human society has had to devise and develop moral principles as it evolves. There is no one moral arbiter, no one moral law. No bad thing really, otherwise we could find ourselves following the example of that big bollix in the bible who merrily murdered the first born of the Egyptians.

In Irish society we do not have one moral view of abortion that we can all subscribe to. It is hotly contested. We are left to ponder do we impose our morality on others or do we allow them to dissent from our morality and behave in accordance with their own?
How many people do we really know who would seriously vote against abortion if the Church supported it? I can think of none. Sure, we will always find a crank but religion seems to have more cranks than most.

While nothing is likely to swing on it, I thought the Yes lobby were very weak on that matter you refer to. There were points in the debate where the Yes camp’s blushes were spared by the presence of that Fianna Failer in the No team. Had somebody else been there the debate might have been ever more detrimental to the Yes lobby than it was.
There is probably nobody who trusts politicians but better to be ruled by them than by people we don’t elect. Even though people feel that the politicians will legislate for 12 weeks, I will not be surprised if they do it for something less. There is no reason that I can see for either lobby to trust politicians.

Personally, I have found it a strange experience. Travelling with a strong Catholic believer this evening he told me he was voting yes. Add that to meeting die hard socialist who very ardently campaigns for a not vote. There is maybe a bit more fog around the usual demarcation lines than we tend to expect.

grouch said...

well said sean, we are souls - we are spiritual beings having a human experience as an old english friend of mine says. the REGIME (ff fg sf lab pbp and all the media) is steamrolling ahead and personally, i think they have built the abortion centres already. people arent aware of what this is about, its about walking into a polling booth and with the stroke of a pen potentially wiping out hundreds of thousands of perfectly healthy irish children in the coming years and possibly removing permanently from the face of the earth irish children deemed unfit for life by our overlords - ie, the disabled. irish people will do DEMOCRATICALLY something our founding fathers would never have imagined. after all weve been through as a people - Jesus H Christ. and a lot of these Repealers will talk about evil regimes throughout history who destroyed the handicapped. but they are doing it themselves with the words - care compassion trust and a polling card. how fucking awful is that. seriously - how mind bogglingly fucking awful. i heard una mullally saying yesterday, without a flinch or quiver in her voice, that disabled people and Downes women need access to abortion as some of them have crises pregnancies. think about that. thats the mindset we are up against.

personally. i think the abortion centres have been built already and are hiding in plain view -

https://twitter.com/PhotogKilkenny/status/994246641346662400

if no wins it will be down to the working class who are sick to death now of listening to a regime dominated by upper middle class homos telling them to support every kind of minority except for innocent children. people are sick to death of them now but the result im fearing will be very close. NO actually need a small miracle. the tragic thing is that a lot of the brainwashed yessers will have nightmares in 10-20 years when they realise what they have done if yes wins.. thats a fact.

finally - what sickens me is hearing them say we're exporting our problems to britain. as if the british babies dont count. one in five are aborted - how tragic is that. rip those babies and peace and healing for the mothers who suffer.

David Higgins said...

Am, you say morality is a product of society and not something externally imposed, is that not a contradiction? If it's a social constuct then is it not imposed on the individual? I agree morality collectively evolves but without the parables of Christianity on good and evil who takes over? The state? Is that better. Am an atheist, i would like to have your confidence in a state without religion, i struggle with it, maybe through time.
I don't like abortion. It seems to me disregarding of life, but let's be honest letting women decide is the only workable solution. Their body, their chose, might not be perfect but it's the best you'll get

AM said...

David,

not imposed by anything external to human society. There is nothing other than humanity, which atheists regard as the highest form of life.

Individual morality is something different and is often imposed/prescribed but it is not imposed by something external to human society.

If we look at something like the attempts to deny condoms to Africa, many of us would see that as a profound moral evil. I imagine many of the people who believe in banning condoms feel they are behaving in a morally correct manner. Where does the clash of moralities come from other than human society? Some god can't be providing both perspectives with different moralities.

Morality is always the product of humanity. It does not grow elsewhere.

I don't much think in terms of a state without religion. States without religion can be as brutal as states with it.

I think more of the right to be free from religion. I very much feel that people in all societies should be free to practice their religion. The only way to achieve freedom to and from religion is to have a secular society in which religion is wholly permissible and where the believer practices it on themselves and not on others. Religious rules like canon or sharia law should have as much power of enforcement as say the rules of the local chess club. If you are in it then you can abide by the rules. If you are not in it the rules have no authority over your behaviour.

Parables of Christianity predate Christianity. The world has always struggled with the issues they address. The bible is a document produced by men claiming it is the word of god. A god that would massacre kids is something wholly irreconcilable with any concept of love. My experience of Christians is the more "devout" they are the more filled with hatred they seem to be.

I have worked voluntarily with a Christian charity for a number of years. I engage with these people every day of the week as we have to get things done. For the most part, they are wholly indifferent to my atheism as I am indifferent to their belief. They don't inflict their religious belief on others. They understand human problems because their work brings them to the coal face. They also appreciate why human problems need human solutions.

I don't regard abortion as discarding life but as the prevention of a human being brought into existence. That I personally do not like abortion is neither here nor there. Not liking what people do with their free speech has never stopped me endorsing free speech. When I vote next Friday it will be to allow women to have the power to decide. What they decide to do with that power is another matter.

AM said...

Henry Joy,

I don't know mush about Maria Steen. I just found her performance better than the rest.

She is with the Iona Institute, which given that the clerics can no longer push the agenda due to the scandals they are saturated in, it has to do the heavy lifting. There is no way the haughty religious ate going to be humble. The arrogance is always pronounced. There is much to be said for Mencken: God is the immemorial refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They find not only sanctuary in His arms, but also a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos; He will set them above their betters.

Two good pieces you linked to. The ensoulment one helps to underscore how this is all shit they just make up.

David Higgins said...

Am,
A lot of what religions do is undoubtedly evil. The condoms in Africa a fair example. I understand the teachings of Jesus are just teachings of Krishna, Budda, numerous sun gods rehashed and manipulated, but that's kinda my point all of these deities we're our creation some of them complete fabrications to explain the "higher" level of consciousness that fascinates and escapes us. I am all for secular societies. My only gripe, if it were, is the notion, by some, is that if we could restrain religion all would be well. Humans obessions with absolute would have us replacing priests with theoretical physicists. That doesn't mean religion shouldn't be aware leashed in terms of influence. We just be more self aware is my point, our troubles didn't begin with religion and they won't end by it.
Voting to support women's chose is the only way. Anything else will be an infringement on women's civil rights whatever way we dress it up. Emotions got to be marginalised in this one

grouch said...

"There is nothing other than humanity, which atheists regard as the highest form of life. "

then later u quote Mencken....a kind of superiority, soothing to their macerated egos; He will set them above their betters.

it sounds like those who think humans are the highest form of life are the ones with a superiority complex setting themselves above God.

Henry JoY said...

David,

Jonathan Haidt's insightful book: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided By Politics and Religion. has been really useful in helping me understand the moral domain (probably the most influential book I've read over the last few years). In it he address where morality comes from and concludes that it's both innate and socially learnt. He looks at moral diversity within and across cultures and concludes that each individual's morality is shaped by a matrix of six different foundations;The Care/Harm Foundation, The Fairness/Cheating Foundation, The Loyalty/Betrayal Foundation, The Authority/Subversion Foundation, The Sanctity/Degradation Foundation and lastly The Liberty/Oppression Foundation. Here's a link to a short article with a couple of schematics which may be of interest.

Getting repeal through presents many challenges at several levels.
According to Haidt's model the Socially Conservative want to preserve institutions and traditions that sustain a moral community and will almost exclusive vote no.
Liberals most sacred value is to care for victims of oppression and are influenced most by the care/harm foundation. Their dilemma will be to sort their feelings of care for the woman from their concerns of potential harm that will be done to the foetus/child. These votes potentially go in either direction.
The Libertarians whose most sacred value is individual liberty will exclusive vote 'Yes'.

Add to this the fact, as the author reminds us, that most responses on these matters tends to be initially intuitive and emotional with critical and rational responses both slower and rarer, if at all. We're in an unpredictable situation. Fingers still crossed for a 'Yes' result.

AM said...

David,

there is more than religion that causes misery so restraining it will have only limited effect. A lot more needs restricted as well.

Christianity would have us worshipping a tyrant but the son is ok even though the son is the father as well. And then it screams child killers at women who want abortions in the name of that child killer they worship. It is twisted.

grouch said...

the only person screaming child killer is you. you have a weird cartoon version of religious people floating around ur brain - ur actually the willie frazer of atheism.

David Higgins said...

Henry joy,
Thanks it's a subject am very interested in but struggle to fully comprehend.
A.m, am basically in agreement with most of what you say on religion, again, my only worry is if we restrict religion some will think job done. It's like the anti Trump brigade who are only interested in getting rid of the personality and not the policies. Am i making sense?

AM said...

Sean,

the drive for abortion in Ireland comes for the demand for it, which is considerable. The demand for abortion is no more driven by dark sinister forces exploiting comely maidens than the opposition to abortion is driven by some cabal in the Vatican trying to protect the same comely maidens form the devil and all his works.

Ken Ham once wrote a book and asked a question similar to the one you posed. It was called "Why Won't They Listen"? He could not grasp that people would not see what he wanted them to see i.e. the world was only 6000 years old and that evolution was a lie. I presume his explanation was that the devil was driving the non listening effect. While your suggestion is not on a par with his idiocy, the point I make is that no matter how passionate we are about a cause we can't plausibly explain away the opposition to that cause on some invisible hand which we then try to blame for all pour woes.

It would be very strange if Ireland was not experiencing a large demand for abortion, given that the demand is a global trend. This society has worked hard to rid itself of the shackles of conservative Catholicism and has succeeded in the areas of contraception, divorce, same sex marriage (I think you have no issue with any of these).

Conservative Catholicism may well be the main driving force behind pushing the No campaign but it reflects a sentiment already there. It is not creating a demand out of nothing. The same with the yes campaign.

The international assertion of the feminist perspective has undoubtedly had its impact in Ireland as elsewhere. It is the world we live in. But it is not some dark sinister force that nobody but the select few can see.

It worries me that some people in the No camp point to Trump and Brexit as if they are something to be recommended, even now when we see just what sentiment lay behind those outcomes. If the type of voter who brought Trump and Brexit over the line were behind the abortion campaign the Repeal campaign would cause me serious problems. Besides both have been unmitigated disasters.

As for souls, I used to comment during the blanket protest that I had a sole, one on each foot which the bible kept warm because we could stand on it to keep out feet from the cold concrete floor during winter. So the bible is good for your sole!

AM said...

David,

I think it is pretty clear what you are saying and makes sense to me. Lots of things make sense to me. Wolfe Tone has said things here that make a lot of sense even though we fundamentally disagree. It is important to find sense in what our opponents or critics say rather than screaming and ranting at them. Myself and Sean Bres have locked horns on lots of occasions over different things but I always get something out of it, something I might not have thought of before. These debates should never be about bragging rights or egos. And generally I regard the comments section as people practicing their idea, unsworn testimony type of thing where we can't hold people to what they say forever and a day. People should not be afraid to come to TPQ with their ideas. If you find their ideas serious, engage, If you don't, ignore.

Ultimately, respect people's rights to their ideas but no need to respect their ideas.

grouch said...

"the drive for abortion in Ireland comes for the demand for it, which is considerable. "

the "drive" for abortion - you cudnt have used a better word. and we all know who's in the driving seat -

https://repealthe8thfunding.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/ifpa-amnesty-abortion-rights-campaign-soros.jpg?w=295

https://kristiannp1.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/gse.jpg?w=721&h=555

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/E0gIOwu8ZGE/maxresdefault.jpg

the reason why some people in the No camp point to Trump and Brexit as if they are something to be recommended has nothing to do with the merits or demerits of trump or brexit, but more because for the first time in modern history PEOPLE ARE NOT DOING WHAT THE POWERS THAT BE ARE TELLING THEM THROUGH THE MEDIA THEY OWN. also - who is the type of voter behind brexit - i mean there was quite a lot of them? and what motivated them - concern for their country and culture perhaps? this is the significance of brexit & trump and offers hope to us on NO who are up against the ENTIRE POLITICAL AND MEDIA CORPORATION POWER COMPLEX. ordinary paddies are beginning to see what the msm is all about and that is of major importance not just for the referendum but for politics in the future - people are waking up to the gigantic and oppressive influence of the corporate owned media which is a constant in everyones life now. the corporate owned media played its part in introducing abortion into america which has lead to 50 million babies being killed since roe vs wade, which when you do the maths, is a COLOSSAL amount of money for the abortion and spare parts industry.
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/nvp/media.html

the abortion industry is not pro-choice, it is pro-cash.

Henry JoY said...

David,

these are big subjects ... the struggle is predictable and normal. The learning zone is rarely, or if ever, the comfort zone. People do, do they not, need to stretch themselves both physically and mentally if they are to achieve good overall fitness and live a fulfilling life?

Welcome and make friends with the struggle I say ^_^

grouch said...

the repeal logo is the word repeal written in a childish cartoon typeface in front of a big red love heart. there are people strutting around Ireland this week with it proudly emblazoned on t-shirts and sweatshirts. all the words they use in their campaign are words like - care compassion trust courage. well, that big love heart and those PR words are the last thing these doctors from the abortion and spare parts industry would make anyone think of. have a listen urselves to what motivates these 'doctors'. its certainly not compassion or big cartoon lovehearts. this is what some of u are voting for this friday - ur voting for tyranny - tyranny against our most innocent and defenceless brothers and sisters. someday these 'doctors' will be regarded as the scum of history. and listen to the doctors laughing in the audience. SCUM.

https://twitter.com/EmmaMurphy12150/status/997862868967141377


go with real doctors like the writer of the above article, vote NO. listen to her words again and then listen to the SCUM in the video. thats the diffrence betwen real medical care compassion and trust and pure unadulterated tyranny disguised as healthcare. if you vote YES then at least you should know what you are voting for, and its not cartoon lovehearts and care and compassion logos. thats just the propaganda from the abortion industry, happily adopted and disseminated by the corporate owned media, the NGOs and various pseudo charity organisations like the Soros funded Shamnasty Multinational.oh, and i nearly forgot - aborSINN FEIN too.

grouch said...

also, are the msm going to investigate this? here is proof the abortion industry is at the heart of the REGIME in dublin. its worth remebering too that simon harris sent begging letters to pro-life groups seeking votes from them with promises he would always defend the unborn.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdmDMvLU0AEeuqE.jpg:large

Barry Gilheany said...

Grouch

Talk about "tyranny against our most defenceless brothers and sisters"; like those interned and abused in Magdalene Laundries, Letterfrack, Artane, Goldenbridge, Nazereth House etc. Were these children of the nation "cherished equally".

I respect your beliefs that life begins at conception; I do not respect the racist bile (Soros funded agencies; one million people of non-Caucasian origin coming to Ireland by 2,500) that you continually bolster them with. On any other discussion forum you would be blocked.

grouch said...

here is the wonderful Soros funded SHAMNASTY MULTINATIONAL hitting the streets of ireland and telling GIGANTIC WHOPPERS to anyone who will stop and listen to them. God be with the days, and it dusnt seem that long ago, when Amnesty International were considered a positive organisation fighting the powers that be for genuine causes. WHAT WENT WRONG????. also, a lot of those accents dont sound Irish now do they? what a great little organisation SHAMNASTY is now that it can organise a foreign rabble, put them in yellow coats, and train them to tell COLOSSAL PORKIES to the irish people in an attempt to shame them into voting yes. as ive said 100 times already - not only is the YES side founded on lies like savita and perpetuated by deception, they are actually now training gormless young eejits like the saddos in the clip below to lie en masse to the irish people. SHAMNASTY actually trains them to lie. how mad is that folks!!!!! the bosses of SHAMNASTY should be in jail.
also - whats the bets that the next rte audience debate will kick off with a warning from clare byrne, just like she did last week, that nobody is to be called a liar!!!!!! i wonder why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=117&v=lVNlMK_pYOc

grouch said...

if ur against the tyranny of tuam and magdalenes then u must vote no barry. and why would i be blocked anywhere for simply stating facts? im just quoting plan 2040. and im perfectly within my rights to tell some cheeky refugee to go fuck himself for campaigning for the culling of his adopted countries children. he'll have plenty of offspring too u can be sure - and paddy will be paying for them. what a nation of dopes.

grouch said...

in regards to the post above that contained information on the links between the 'government' and the pharmceutical/abortion/human control industry, well una doolally and killy holland nor any of the other cultural marxist priests and priestesses of the mainstream media appear to be on it yet. however, this young irishman who calls himself the Don is on it and check out his video below. remember Leo when he came on the scene first - the future was bright for this anti gay marriage and anti abortion young doctor. well at least thats the image he had to put out there to get to the top of fine gael. he was actually selected for this post a long time ago. turns out hes a homosexual in the pocket of the abortion industry and God knows who else. good man Leo. as for Harris the minister for health- he wrote begging letters to pro life groups in his election campaign promising he would protect the unborn. DO YOU TRUST THIS MAN WITH LEGISLATION?

here is his letter in case you have doubts
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/njz4u3reh49ckn2/simoneemeail.jpg?dl=0

(remember - their mantra is TRUST TRUST TRUST - that is the scary thing about these CREEPS)

and here is the Don's video -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=368&v=rKdNMepjJcs

that video is worth watching twice. this is the stuff every irish person should know. we are not living in a democracy - we are living under a globalist regime that is going full speed ahead into a controlled society. if we vote YES tomoro, we will go down in history as the first people to VOTE to do this to children - an incredible thing to do and something our ancestors who went through hell and did everything they could to keep their children alive would be horrified at. it will be a sure sign of the death of the once great spiritual nation of the Gael if the yes side wins. u will never have power over children like this again, you literally have power over life and death tomorow and power over them potentially for generations and generations. children deemed unfit for life as well as countless perfectly healthy unborn Gaelic babies could be killed long after you are gone from this earth all because you walked into a polling booth and decided to vote with the REGIME.
u must VOTE NO.

grouch said...

how come that post about SHAMNASTY(may 21) wasnt published until after the referendum!!!!!