Sunday, December 31, 2017

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Keep Your God Off My Couch

Andrew McArthur blogging @ Atheist Republic advises:

Keep your god off my couch ... and don't forget to wipe your feet!




I was fortunate enough to pass through the early years of my childhood relatively unscathed by formal religious indoctrination. God probably came up once or twice, but as my parents were each members of different faiths, no particular importance seemed to be attached to him. Oh sure, we used to recite the Lord’s prayer in school, but that was just one more thing to get through before we could get out of there and get down to some serious fun. God, like Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy were relegated to the ash heap of childhood fantasy once I began to realize that the real world bore scant resemblance to the realms of childhood mythology.

Despite this dearth of formal indoctrination, it was impossible to miss the dominant worldview that God created our world and everything in it for some inscrutable purpose. I still have vague memories of occasional “end of days” prophets roaming the neighborhood, harbingers of the wrath certain to descend upon us as punishment for our wicked ways. Being a child of the seventies, my imagination gave shape to these prophecies as nuclear holocaust; things were a little tense on the world stage at the time.

Now here it is decades later, and our eagerly anticipated doom has completely failed to materialize (much to the chagrin of the born again bunch who see such a cataclysm as a wonderful opportunity to unite with their god.) I can only assume that these “End Of Days” folks got their signals crossed somewhere along the way. God knows they weren’t the first.

Getting ready for the end 

Segments of mankind have been awaiting the end almost since the beginning. This eagerness to put paid to the question of our earthly existence has motivated millions of ostensibly otherwise sane people to blindly follow anyone with sufficient oratory skills and a catchy slogan. Smugness reigns, as they are absolutely certain they will be among those saved when the time finally comes. Even today, many are looking forward to, and preparing for, the final battle between the forces of good and evil as foretold in the book of Revelations, certain they and their ilk will be on the winning team.

The late twentieth and early twenty-first centuries have seen a dramatic rise in the visibility and popularity of the Evangelical Christian movement in North America. From the Canadian prairies to the American “Bible Belt,” Born Again Christians are attempting to foist their theocentric worldview on the rest of us, and achieving some notable successes. It is sobering to note that more than one past president of the United States; Commander In Chief of the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet, believed that God spoke to them personally and told them when to go to war. To be fair, they were not alone. The number of people cruelly murdered in any one of the many names of the One True God is impossible to calculate, but it is in the hundreds of millions to be sure.


Religions can no longer be tolerated

Religion is no longer some tolerable foible we can incorporate into our social and political fabric, it is nothing more than a tool used by desperate men and women (although predominantly men) to maintain their grip on power, and advance their personal agendas under the guise of piety. Religion is dangerous. We must outgrow our need for gods if we are ever to live up to our true potential as human being.

Paradoxically, it seems that if we are ever to re-enter the garden we need to understand that it never in fact existed and we are going to have to create it for ourselves. This is a call to arms. Our weapons are truth and communication. Demonstrable proof is our ammunition. At stake is nothing less than the future survival of our species. We have the ability to shape our own world and define our own experience. We need not tremble in fear at the terrors of the night. It’s time to put the demons back in the box.

Andrew McArthur is an Atheist Republic blogger and newsletter contributor.


50 comments :

grouch said...

this lad looks like one of the 12 apostles! hapi new year mackers and co.

grouch said...

atheists miss out on craic like the links below, like, what kind of dancing do atheists get up to on their festivals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMohK3w9slE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4T21NJkaUE

explicit lyrics on second one just to warn ya.

Wolfsbane said...

Andrew says:
'From the Canadian prairies to the American “Bible Belt,” Born Again Christians are attempting to foist their theocentric worldview on the rest of us, and achieving some notable successes.'

Can't say I've noticed any attempts to foist their worldview on society - unless that refers to restricting abortions to saving the mother's life. But that view can be held by any thinking compassionate person, atheist or theist.

Maybe Andrew is thinking of the gay 'right' for homosexuality to be declared normal, and those who disagree to be guilty of a hate crime? Again, the idea that homosexuality is abnormal can be - and was - held by atheists as well as theists.

But he is welcome to campaign against religion all he likes, if he keeps to his statement, Our weapons are truth and communication. Demonstrable proof is our ammunition.'

It's when the historic atheist weapons - fines, the gulag, the neck-shot - are employed that we Christian believers object.

Henry JoY said...

Wolfie,

in the name of Jaysus will you give up your ould sins!

Its not so many years since left-handedness became well understood.

Your homophobic innuendos are as idiotic as of those who once persecuted left-handers and deemed them sinister.

grouch said...

henry joyless - if there was a persecution of ambidextrous masturbators, i wudnt fancy ur chances.

wolfster, we dont agree on everything, but i enjoy and learn from ur comments, i dont know what exact denomination u are, but to me u are a cosmic prod.

Henry JoY said...

grouch

as much as I enjoy your humour I still can't for the life of me see why those who want/need to follow a particular moral code insist on imposing that code of conduct onto others. What justifies such impositions? Isn't the reward their god has promised them enough?
Is there any more sense to these theocratic prohibitions over and above the past cruel idiocy of forcing left-handers to live a right-handed existence?

grouch said...

first of all the first sentence is wobbly as everybody does it to varying degrees whether they admit to it or not or whether they have/havent a moral code. so called liberals and trendies are the biggest 'imposers' of all and at the moment they are trying to impose their AMORAL code onto innocent irish children. personally, i impose nothing on no-one except my belief that a child conceived has the right to life and will defend them by any legal/moral means necessary. that child can grow up to by my neighbour, my worst enemy, an atheist, a buddhist, an existentialist, my murderer, my daughter-in-law, my online sparring partner, my whatever - i dont care - it does not deserve to be killed and butchered and its organs sold to pharmaceutical/medical tyrants. so i will 'impose' that on everybodys mother and father and will take the flack from whoever, in the full knowledge that i imposed that code on their pregnant mother while they were in the womb. ergo i defend gaylords, trannies, genderbenders, pro-abortionists and breeders at the most innocent and vulnerable time of their lives. and that as someone once said - 'is the undauntable thought my friend, the thought that says im right.'
choose life, choose joy, choose children and dont be afraid to impose that belief on anyone. take a look at ur earliest class foto henry. now scrawl an X over the faces of 6 or 7 of them. thats what liberals are gonna impose on us now. and i bet u cant scrawl an x over urself. hapi new year henry, and may this time next year we both be still here and living in a place that is still safe for the innocent and beautiful.

Henry JoY said...

grouch

we debated these matters extensively here last February. My position hasn't changed since and I guess your's hasn't either.

Hence I'm calling it a day on this one.

Wolfsbane said...

Grouch - Well said, that last post! Good to see folk stand up for the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves:

Proverbs 31:8 Open your mouth for the speechless,
In the cause of all who are appointed to die.
9 Open your mouth, judge righteously,
And plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Wolfsbane said...

grouch said:

'i dont know what exact denomination u are, but to me u are a cosmic prod.'

Thanks, grouch, that's very kind of you. But I'm just an ordinary Christian of the Biblical sort. I hesitate to use the term 'prod' about my faith because it has lots of political connotations. Many prods are not Christians. Even'Evangelical Protestant'has its political connotations, even though it disassociates itself from the godless prods.

I'm a Baptist - but that too has come to be very degraded in many nations. The Baptist churches in Ireland, north and south, at least hold to the basics of the faith even if we have our differences among us about lesser matters. And we share that common faith with all other Evangelical churches, and some individuals within non-Evangelical churches.

Just a few examples of real Evangelical churches you can check out online, or visit if they are nearby:

Northern Ireland:

Colin Glen Christian Fellowship: http://cgcf.ie/index.php/en/

Lurgan Baptist Church: https://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=lurganbaptist

Stonepark Baptist Church: http://www.stoneparkbaptistchurch.org/



Republic of Ireland:

Dundalk Baptist Church: https://www.dundalkbaptistchurch.org/

Athlone Baptist Church: http://www.cherithabc.com/about

Grace Community Church (Roscommon): https://www.graceministry.info/







Wolfsbane said...

Henry JoY said:
'Your homophobic innuendos are as idiotic as of those who once persecuted left-handers and deemed them sinister.'

Superstition feared left-handedness. But neither left-handedness nor homosexuality is feared by Christianity. Left-handedness is just an alternative wiring of one aspect of the brain. Homosexuality is a lot different, involving the mind. It is an intrinsically disordered mental state.

Nature itself shows it is abnormal. And long observation tells us it is harmful, in various degrees, to those who engage in it.

I'm not suggesting society punish those engaged in it, for they should be free to do as they please with other consenting adults. I am objecting to the blitzkrieg of oppression the so-called liberals have launched against those who will not say homosexuality is normal and good.

I don't even object to the State permitting gay marriage - as long as does not demand we all say that marriage is to be celebrated rather than regretted. I object to the State indoctrinating our children on the matter.

Rather, let the State tell it as it is - homosexuality is a preference for some people, and they have the right to such preference, even though it is abnormal.

But the craziness of the 'liberals' has already begun to take them over the cliff of societal destruction. The transgender movement is mutilating the bodies of kids and enabling their mental breakdowns in later life, as well as allowing predatory males access to female domains, under the guise of being transgender. How could one say they are not, since the transgender case is built on self-declaration?

The poor people caught up in homosexual and transgender delusions have my deepest sympathy. But those who enable them do not. Nor do the thugs who try to force the rest of us to collude with their madness.

Peter said...

Wolfsbane
Let me tell you that homosexuality is not a preference, it is part of nature. People don't choose to be gay. Your god must be a right bastard if he makes people gay and then has religious nutters claim they are sinners.

grouch said...

Fair enuf Henry. on the subject of left/right handedness, the unborn child uses all its limbs to defend itself from the abortion doctors instruments of death. ur words - cruel, sinister and persecution - seem more apt here.

Wolfsbane, hope i didnt offend u. im a bit of a lone ranger myself but am kind of drawn to poor clares and franciscans, but thanks for the list of churches, i hope they all help defend the 8th. here is a wonderful poem that floored me the other day, i found it on the back page of a booklet in the back of a franciscan church, i was stunned when i read the authors name at the end. God be good to him, he was well and truly a one-off. to be honest, i cant get the poem out of my head these last few days -


UNTO US

Somewhere at some time
They committed themselves to me
And so, I was!
Small, but I WAS!
Tiny, in shape
Lusting to live
I hung in my pulsing cave.
Soon they knew of me
My mother --my father.
I had no say in my being
I lived on trust
And love
Tho' I couldn't think
Each part of me was saying
A silent 'Wait for me
I will bring you love!'
I was taken
Blind, naked, defenseless
By the hand of one
Whose good name
Was graven on a brass plate
in Wimpole Street,
and dropped on the sterile floor
of a foot operated plastic waste
bucket.
There was no Queens Counsel
To take my brief.
The cot I might have warmed
Stood in Harrod's shop window.
When my passing was told
My father smiled.
No grief filled my empty space.
My death was celebrated
With tickets to see Danny la Rue
Who was pretending to be a woman
Like my mother was.
by spike milligan

Henry JoY said...

Wolfsbane

homosexuality and gender dysphoria, similar to left-handedness, are also probably likely to be manifestations of alternate brain wiring. I do know that there has been some neuro-imaging research conducted in Holland which focuses on spatial problem solving regions of the brain and definitively confirm that such activity happens in different regions dependent on gender.
The interesting aspect of this albeit limited study is that a majority of those who present with gender dysphoria do in fact have gender atypical brains; the neuro-images of females completing spacial tasks show activity where one would expect to find it in typical males and males with dysphoria lighting up the typical female regions.



On this issue, as on several matters before, we'll just have to agree to respectfully differ.

AM said...

Peter,

so funny but true!

As Wafa Sultan said, let them worship stones if they choose - just don't throw them at the rest of us.

grouch said...

atheists throw stones too.

Barry Gilheany said...

Grouch

You are entitled to your views on abortion and to live your life by them but you are not entitled to demand that society as a whole abides by them through the Eighth Amendment to the Irish Constitution. it is entirely a matter for the woman to decide whether she does or does not want to go through with a pregnancy particularly when the progeny is one of rape at the hands of a serial child abuser as in the X-case in 1992 or is doomed to die as in the case of Savita in Galway Hospital in October 2012 or Stella Hodges in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in September 1982. For in the latter two cases both mother and unborn were granted equal status in death.

Wolfsbane said...

Peter said:
'Let me tell you that homosexuality is not a preference, it is part of nature. People don't choose to be gay.'

I don't doubt that homosexual attraction is a strong internal urge. It is a mental state. I mean by preference that after one has come to that mental state, the preference to stay in it and act upon it is there, just as the preference is there to resist that state, identify the possible causes that led one to same-sex attraction and deal with it. Many homosexual men and women can testify to their escape from a homosexual lifestyle.

'Your god must be a right bastard if he makes people gay and then has religious nutters claim they are sinners.'

God made a perfect man and woman. When they sinned, they and their descendants became sinners. We are all born with twisted natures, and life can expose us to twisted experiences that nudge us toward more twisted responses and outlooks. Bad tempers, for example, may be part of our fallen genetic make-up, but we are to resist acting on it. We may be sexually attracted to our neighbour's wife - but we are to resist acting on it - and indeed, to purge ourselves from that attraction.

I have ministered o a few paedophiles in my time - and I did not tell them that they should accept their twisted attraction. Life had given them experiences that tended them toward sexual attraction of children, and inability to sexually relate to adults. But that was no excuse - they had the duty to resist and get that twisted mental state out of themselves. They had to know that it was not OK just because they felt that way.

One of them had been sexually abused by monks in a training school, had later engaged in homosexual things, and then found himself locked-in to sexual attraction to children of the age he was when first abused.

Another had been made to dress as a girl at home, by his mother. When he came to puberty, he could only sexually relate to pre-pubescent kids.

None of this was an excuse, even though both had been abused and responded wrongly to that. They were still responsible adults, capable of understanding that their attractions were perverse and doubly so since it was children and not consenting adults involved.

I've dealt with a few adulterers in my time, too. Some were not just opportunists who had no respect for their neighbour or his wife - rather, they had started out innocently enough admiring the kind, charming woman in the office, church or next door. But admiration was allowed to grow into romantic love, love that was only appropriate for a man and his wife. The excuse was made that they could not help themselves - this is how they feel, so it must be right, how can love be wrong?

But it is not how we feel that determines what is right. God determines that. And for those who are atheists or otherwise don't believe in the Christian God, even nature itself gives a clue about proper sexual morality.

We all, Peter, have our problems with unrighteous feelings threatening to shipwreck us. And many of us have a history that would see us shamed by most of our peers if it was broadcast. But regardless of the problem, God can deliver us from it:

1 Corinthians 6: 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Wolfsbane said...

Henry JoY said:
'The interesting aspect of this albeit limited study is that a majority of those who present with gender dysphoria do in fact have gender atypical brains; the neuro-images of females completing spacial tasks show activity where one would expect to find it in typical males and males with dysphoria lighting up the typical female regions.'

Thanks for that. I've read a bit on it and will keep an eye on any future more extensive studies. But I'm not surprised that gender dysphoria has brain influences, just as many mental disorders have. Influences, not determinations.

The fact that many gender dysphoric kids grow out of that in their teens and twenties should be a BIG warning that the feelings generated by any organic influences are not proof that the person is a different gender than that witnessed to by their sexual organs and chromosomes. But, Hey, that would be too straight for the elite manipulators to accept!

Wolfsbane said...

grouch:

Thank you so much for that poem of Spike Milligan! Amazing coming from the arty world! He would be de-platformed today.

Peter said...

Wolfsbane
So you can "escape" the gay? Would you let your daughter marry an "ex-gay"? Studies into these christian de-gaying schools have shown high rates of suicide and regression among those that complete them. Gayness is normal, it exists in all species. Why does god make so many gays if he is omnipotent and gayness is unnatural? Putting gayness and paedophilia in the same post is a particularly low blow from yourself. You cannot equate them. Paedophiles harm children, gay people have relationships with consenting adults. That you would rather they try to degay themselves or live a lonely life says all I need to know about you and your evil religion.

grouch said...

barry, as someone who lives in galway, i know the truth about the savita case. it is common knowledge now and even the most ardent pro abortionist stays away from her name now as everybody knows kitty holland and the irish times disgraced themselves with their 'reporting'. please look into this. (also, i never realised until i found out who kitty holland is, that cultural marxists were so into nepotism!).

as regards pregnancy by rape barry, u shud find the following fascinating/horrifying. the famous roe vs wade case in america is one of the greatest scandals of all times based on lies and false allegations of rape. please listen to the woman involved speak in her own words here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43jxIV2JQQc

if you look further into the roe vs wade story you will find out exactly what the abortion industry is capable of doing to get its way - ie - lie, blackmail, abuse and deceive and their friends in media will always cover their asses.

the following is from catholic culture;

Legal abortion is coming soon to Ireland, it now seems likely, arriving the same way it arrived in the US 40 years ago: by fraud.

In the US, the plaintiffs in the landmark cases of Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton have both testified that their cases were based on fraud. Norma McCorvey (“Roe”) was not raped; Sandra Cano (“Doe”) did not even want an abortion! After converting to the pro-life cause (and the Catholic Church), the late Dr. Bernard Nathanson revealed that he and other prominent abortionists had manufactured statistics to support their argument for legalizing their practice, and duped the media into accepting them.

Today, in Ireland, abortion advocates are exploiting the tragic death of a young woman to rally public opinion for their cause. The Irish Times reporter who originally broke the report about the death of Savita Halappanavar now concedes that the story was “may be a little muddled” because she did not check all the relevant facts.

She certainly didn’t. There is no evidence that Savita Halappanavar sought an abortion. There is no evidence that an abortion would have saved her life. There is, in fact, no evidence to support a connection between the abortion issue and this poor woman’s death. The reporter, Kitty Holland, told an RTE broadcast audience that her story never claimed an abortion would have saved the young woman’s life. But the headline—“Woman denied a termination dies in hospital’—certainly conveyed that impression. And in the days since the story appeared, dozens of Irish politicians and pundits have joined in clamorous calls for an end to the country’s abortion ban.

you can read the rest here if u like
https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=951

what an interesting life uve had wolfsbane, u shud write it all down. also, barry, i will look into stella case now too and will not be surprised if i find the abortion industrys lies all over it, like all the other cases.

grouch said...

this is the logical conclusion to the feminist mantra of a woman having the right to choose. sad when trump is the only human in the following clip. i want my fellow citizens to know exactly what they are letting our children in for and why we shud oppose abortion everywhere-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY1ReU8hLVI

"its all just a matter of line items"

Steve R said...

Wolfie,

"I don't doubt that homosexual attraction is a strong internal urge. It is a mental state. I mean by preference that after one has come to that mental state, the preference to stay in it and act upon it is there, just as the preference is there to resist that state, identify the possible causes that led one to same-sex attraction and deal with it. Many homosexual men and women can testify to their escape from a homosexual lifestyle."

And yet many more, including good friends of mine, will tell you they were born that way without any external influence. Flipping the question...did you choose to be heterosexual Wolfie?

"God made a perfect man and woman. When they sinned, they and their descendants became sinners. We are all born with twisted natures, and life can expose us to twisted experiences that nudge us toward more twisted responses and outlooks. Bad tempers, for example, may be part of our fallen genetic make-up, but we are to resist acting on it. We may be sexually attracted to our neighbour's wife - but we are to resist acting on it - and indeed, to purge ourselves from that attraction."

Absolutely zero evidence for this nonsense in the scientific record of any discipline you care to name. If your 'God' created humans he must have been on the drink at 5pm on a friday to do such a crap job physically alone!

"But it is not how we feel that determines what is right. God determines that. And for those who are atheists or otherwise don't believe in the Christian God, even nature itself gives a clue about proper sexual morality."

Think about what you just said. Take all the time you need.

And cherry-picking a passage to suit your narrative is asinine unless you point out the nasty stuff el Jesus said and did, or the Old Bigot God in the OT did when off on one of his frequent bloodbath death-rampages against infants.

Par for the course really.



DaithiD said...

Without equating paedophillia and homosexuality , I would just point out the correlations with animal species to indicate normality is bogus. Paedophillia is common amongst our closest ape relatives for example.

However, the ultra-progressive position on sexual preference is that all babies are born homosexual, and that is the "normal" state until society conditions them to the opposite.Many micro-aggressions committed in the comments thus far by claiming otherwise even though we are a reproductive species.

Along with the imposition of genders according to genetalia, it's another sad and acknowledged legacy of European colonialism.

Wolfsbane said...

Peter said:
'So you can "escape" the gay?'

Yes, God is able to give grace to those who turn to Him, so that they straighten out the bent aspects of their personality. Sometimes it is a total loss of the desires, sometimes the temptation can remain to a degree and has to be consciously resisted. Same as with alcohol addiction - some are set free so that it presents no temptation, others are free but have to be careful.

'Would you let your daughter marry an "ex-gay"?'

Yes, if I thought his change was genuine. Same for other sorts of sin.

'Studies into these christian de-gaying schools have shown high rates of suicide and regression among those that complete them.'

I'm not convinced that all these schools are operating on Christian principles. Yes, even secular interventions can help turn gay attraction - as was the standard practice in psychology before the 'liberals' beat the profession into submission to their agenda. But a spiritual change is far better, far deeper and more powerful.

'Gayness is normal, it exists in all species.'

So does murder, theft, and many other practices arising from desires. Yes, the desire to steal, kill, dominate, etc. is thoroughly natural - but most of us will agree that they are wrong. All such 'normal' desire and behaviour are simply evidence of a fallen nature.

'Why does god make so many gays if he is omnipotent and gayness is unnatural?'

You must have missed my comment on that in a previous post. God made man and all creation good - or as He put it, 'Very good'. Genesis 1:31.

It was man's sin that brought a broken nature to all creation. God could have left us at that, dead in spirit and dying physically. But He chose to redeem fallen creation - beginning with sinful man. He sent His Son, Jesus of Nazareth, to pay the penalty for the sin of all who repent and trust in Him. He is coming back to bring them into His new heavens and new earth where no hurt or harm will exist.

'Putting gayness and paedophilia in the same post is a particularly low blow from yourself. You cannot equate them. Paedophiles harm children, gay people have relationships with consenting adults.'

I don't equate them, anymore than I equate adultery with either of them. They are all part of a spectrum of perversity, from heterosexual fornication, to adultery, to homosexuality, to bestiality, to paedophilia. As you say, paedophilia is particularly wicked because of who its victims are. And of course, a gradation exists between heterosexual fornication and heterosexual rape.

'That you would rather they try to degay themselves or live a lonely life says all I need to know about you and your evil religion.'

Turning a person away from moral degradation is not evil. And if the choice is to be celibate, then many heterosexual men and women have the same task. But encouraging people to stay in or even celebrate their perverse lifestyle is enabling their destruction.

Wolfsbane said...

Peter

This lady has spoken and written at length about her being gay and about how that changed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQPSEeE4UfE

grouch said...
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grouch said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Barry Gilheany said...

Grouch

I notice you did not mention the X-case. It is not the "abortion industry" that lies behind campaigns to legalise abortion but the demands and lived experiences of women forced to go through with unwanted pregnancies or to resort to back-street abortionists. Surely you do not want those days to return.

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R said:
'And yet many more, including good friends of mine, will tell you they were born that way without any external influence.'

How would they know for sure what influenced them in their early childhood? Harsh or neglectful fathers, domineering mothers... Only later does a child become conscious of bad influences then affecting them.

'Flipping the question...did you choose to be heterosexual Wolfie?'

No, we are by nature positively inclined to heterosexuality. But I did choose to continue in that, in the face of homosexual offers. Had I went into the drugs culture and had my reasoning powers degraded, who knows what I would have been capable of. Or had I faced bad influences in my early life, of sexual abuse - I could just as easily have taken a homosexual response. "There but for the grace of God go I."

'Absolutely zero evidence for this nonsense in the scientific record of any discipline you care to name. If your 'God' created humans he must have been on the drink at 5pm on a friday to do such a crap job physically alone!'

What evidence should one expect for a perfect creation becoming broken just after its beginning? No relics of Eden or the original life exist; the world has been broken almost from the start.

'[But it is not how we feel that determines what is right. God determines that. And for those who are atheists or otherwise don't believe in the Christian God, even nature itself gives a clue about proper sexual morality.]
Think about what you just said. Take all the time you need.'

Nature gives us a clue as to what our male and female bodies are meant for sexually. It's written large in our very existence! Can we misuse what nature provides? Yes - we can have sex with our own sex, with animals, with multiple partners, etc. Nature provides its verdict in the form of diseases. God also gives His verdict.

'And cherry-picking a passage to suit your narrative is asinine unless you point out the nasty stuff el Jesus said and did, or the Old Bigot God in the OT did when off on one of his frequent bloodbath death-rampages against infants.'

No cherry-picking involved. The Bible is clear enough. Unrepentant sinners will end up in hell. As to the killing of infants at God's command by OT Israel - national sin brings national judgment now as well as then, as any modern war displays. Not all who die in war are personally guilty, and physical death is not the end, for it comes to all mankind whether they are righteous or wicked. God decides when each of us die. It's what follows that we all should be concerned about.





grouch said...

sorry barry, but it is the billion dollar global abortion industry and the 'spare parts' trading of our childrens bodies that lies behind the campaigns to legalise abortion. i explained clearly above how they operate - fraud, false rape allegations, deceitful feminist lawyers (as norma mccorvey explains in vid) and doctors lying through their teeth. also many women who go through abortions are the BACKBONE of pro life groups. pro-abortion propagandists never talk about the pain and long term psychiatric damage some women go through after abortion, often lasting their whole lives. i know a nurse who told me of an elderly patient she knew who would not take the morphine to relieve the cancer pain she was going through as she felt guilty for having an abortion decades earlier. how sad is that. as for the x case - two wrongs dont make a right. the child is innocent ALWAYS. the shauna prewitt case is an extraordinary story. she had a sonogram after being raped, she saw something moving very quickly on the screen, and then heard the boom boom of the heart beating in time with the vibration. she was told the baby was so tiny that every time its heart beats it vibrates the entire body. this moved her and actually brought her back from the dead feeling she had after being raped. she has her child now and the child knows how she was conceived and that barry is a happy ending. abortion is never a happy ending. it is a brutal ending of an innocent child. and money of course for the diabolical spare parts industry. speaking of diabolical, are u aware george soros is funding pro abortion groups here? they have no shame.

Barry Gilheany said...

Grouch

It is not for me and you ads men to deny women the agency and autonomy to control their fertility. I notice you do not contest the fact that the plaintiff in Ms X v Attorney General in 1992 was of suicidal ideation. i am the author of a PhD thesis on that case so I have a air idea of what i am talking about.

grouch said...

control their fertility! - sorry, but that is like saying euthanasia is an agency to control life expectancy. phd thesis - so what barry, i dont care if u wrote a bestseller about it. personally i think its pure cowardice to say its a womans issue - lets the man off the hook with no responsibility, he can continue to impregnate who he likes and run off like a big sissy when he should do the right thing as hes been told all his life its a womans issue. suits the modern metro self loving type down to the ground. u keep going on about x case. i will tell u that abortion does not cure suicidal ideation. it kills an innocent child. death is not a cure for suicidal ideation. - all women will have to say now is - yes, i feel i cant go on (fingers crossed behind back) and the doctor is going to pass the death sentence on an innocent child without even blinking. once again - abortion is not fertility control. in fact it can adversely affect a womans ability to have a child again. abortion is abortion. as a phd graduate on the x-case, have u anything to say about the role of the lawyers in the roe and doe cases in america and the blatant lies told in both cases? also, do u trust the irish media after savita lies?

wolfe tone said...

"am the author of a PhD thesis on that case so I have a air idea of what i am talking about."

Lmao!

Steve R said...

Wolfie,

"How would they know for sure what influenced them in their early childhood? Harsh or neglectful fathers, domineering mothers... Only later does a child become conscious of bad influences then affecting them. "

Your colossal arrogance aside, I know one of their sets of parents and their family, who are absolutely lovely people, Church going as it happens. Both of whom said from the get go that their son was gay and not like their siblings, but still loved him no less. Not an easy thing in rural Australia 40 years ago I'd imagine.

"No, we are by nature positively inclined to heterosexuality. But I did choose to continue in that, in the face of homosexual offers. Had I went into the drugs culture and had my reasoning powers degraded, who knows what I would have been capable of. Or had I faced bad influences in my early life, of sexual abuse - I could just as easily have taken a homosexual response. "There but for the grace of God go I."

Well that is extremely telling Wolfie...

"No cherry-picking involved. The Bible is clear enough. Unrepentant sinners will end up in hell. As to the killing of infants at God's command by OT Israel - national sin brings national judgment now as well as then"

And there's the difference Wolfie. I can not justify the slaughter of infants at any time or by any reason, but you try such a disgusting act as to invoke the right of a character in a book.

Shame on you.

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R said:
'Your colossal arrogance aside, I know one of their sets of parents and their family, who are absolutely lovely people, Church going as it happens. Both of whom said from the get go that their son was gay and not like their siblings, but still loved him no less. Not an easy thing in rural Australia 40 years ago I'd imagine.'

You would need a close personal observation of how the child was raised, for even subtle influences can amass. Undoubtedly genetics can predispose toward a more feminine response in a male, and little things like negative experiences of what should lead to male responses add to that. I have several friends (believers) who manifested as homosexual in early youth, and they are aware of some of the influences that pushed them that way. I have another friend who was homosexual into his late thirties, but life brought him experiences that negated his former influences and he is now straight (not a believer).

'[No, we are by nature positively inclined to heterosexuality. But I did choose to continue in that, in the face of homosexual offers. Had I went into the drugs culture and had my reasoning powers degraded, who knows what I would have been capable of. Or had I faced bad influences in my early life, of sexual abuse - I could just as easily have taken a homosexual response. "There but for the grace of God go I.]
Well that is extremely telling Wolfie...'

Yes, it is. Telling it like it is. Everyone of us, believer or not, might have ended up any sort of sinner, but for God's grace. The Son of God did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

'And there's the difference Wolfie. I can not justify the slaughter of infants at any time or by any reason, but you try such a disgusting act as to invoke the right of a character in a book.'

We both agree that no human being has any right to decide to kill children, or whole people groups. But if there is a Creator of all things, then He would have the right to give life and to take it as He wills, especially if His creation is in rebellion against Him.


Steve R said...

Wolfie,

I am setting aside the homosexual thing for a minute as you are being very dismissive of the fact that these people are born that way, and you do so through some weird assertion of perfect creation then proceed to call them sinners.

"We both agree that no human being has any right to decide to kill children, or whole people groups. But if there is a Creator of all things, then He would have the right to give life and to take it as He wills, especially if His creation is in rebellion against Him"

My point still stands. I am morally superior to your 'God' if he murders the most vulnerable in society, namely infants, for being in 'rebellion' against him. How can an infant be in rebellion Wolfie?

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R said:
' I am morally superior to your 'God' if he murders the most vulnerable in society, namely infants, for being in 'rebellion' against him. How can an infant be in rebellion Wolfie?'

As I said, the infant is not guilty of any sin he/she has committed, but they are born with a fallen, morally twisted nature. A nature that will soon manifest itself in sins. Little Adolf began as a lovely little baby like the rest of us. He did not swop his human nature for one of an alien from a UFO - he was as fully human at the end of his life as at the beginning.

But the point is that the infant, regardless of how he/she might turn out, was not being punished for their own sins when God commanded the extermination of the Amalekites. The infant was just being removed from this world earlier rather than later - due to the sins of his/her parents' generation and the generations before that. The adults were, in general, being punished for their national crimes against God, but even then not all the adults would have been equally guilty.

God has the right to end our time whenever He chooses, and we cannot infer from either a short or a long life what purpose he had in doing so. Physical death comes to the righteous and the wicked, but after that the judgment.

The real judgment begins after death, for those who die without repenting their sins. And we all are heading for that.





Steve R said...

Wolfie,

"The infant was just being removed from this world earlier rather than later - due to the sins of his/her parents' generation and the generations before that."

So the defenseless infant was slaughtered by your god as murderous retribution for something it had absolutely no control or knowledge over, but even more disgustingly for the alleged crimes of others ie their parents?

You are an apologist for child murder Wolfie, and that is morally repugnant. That is something I could never excuse, it's sickening that you attempt to.

AM said...

Steve R,

it is a serious religious derangement about which Steven Weinberg said "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Steve R said...

AM,

While I agree, I am also of the Hitchen's school...

"Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the Supernatural and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish. Picture all experts as if they were mammals. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence. Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.
—Christopher Hitchens, Letters To A Young Contrarian"

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R said;
'So the defenseless infant was slaughtered by your god as murderous retribution for something it had absolutely no control or knowledge over, but even more disgustingly for the alleged crimes of others ie their parents?'

The infant was not the target of the wrath of God. It was caught up in it as a punishment on its parents and its nation. For the infant, no judgment was involved - it was just taken home before the normal time. Same as many children die today - no punishment or moral judgment is attached to them. God decides when each of us must go to Him and give account of our lives.

As you don't accept the existence of a Creator God, you cannot accept that He has the right to end our life when He pleases. But if He exists, the One who created us must have the right to decide when we die and meet Him.

Wolfsbane said...

AM quoted:

'But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.'

Or ideology.

Steve R said...

"The infant was not the target of the wrath of God. It was caught up in it as a punishment on its parents and its nation."

So if the infant was not the target why was he or she caught up in the wrath of your god? Could your god not have been more selective with its target?

"Taken before its time"-- the first step of murder is dehumanising the target, more asinine attempted justification right here.

"As you don't accept the existence of a Creator God, you cannot accept that He has the right to end our life when He pleases."

Then you are saying free will doesn't exist then.

Again, absolutely no evidence of creation absolutely anywhere in any scientific field you care to mention.

Ever decreasing circles show religion for what it truly is, man-made superstition foisted upon those in need of succor with the nasty effect of by-passing reason, but worse still is the pontificate of those who claim a 'special relationship' with any one of a Pantheon of deities.

grouch said...

our infants are being targetted NOW, never mind in O.T., in fact the snipers zoom is coming right into focus on them these days, u have a chance this year to throw the infant slaughterers off target. i hope u do. all u have to do is tick a box.

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R said:
'So if the infant was not the target why was he or she caught up in the wrath of your god? Could your god not have been more selective with its target?'

National sins visited nationally. Even the righteous Israelites had to go into exile to Babylon with the wicked majority of Israelites.

'[Taken before its time]-- the first step of murder is dehumanising the target, more asinine attempted justification right here.'

I've been totally clear about the innocence of the children.

'[As you don't accept the existence of a Creator God, you cannot accept that He has the right to end our life when He pleases.]
Then you are saying free will doesn't exist then.'

Free-will normally refers to the ability to make moral choices, not the ability to do whatever we want without consequences. God does not permit us to do whatever we like and neither does the state.

'Again, absolutely no evidence of creation absolutely anywhere in any scientific field you care to mention.'

Scientific field? The origin of life involves biochemistry, and it cannot account for how life could arise other than as created. Abiogenesis is stumped by the "left-handed amino acid problem" and even if one assumes that can be resolved, the missing ingredient of an orderly mechanism for controlling it all. Life only comes from life, unless there is a Creator who makes non-life become life.

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R said:
'Ever decreasing circles show religion for what it truly is, man-made superstition foisted upon those in need of succor with the nasty effect of by-passing reason, but worse still is the pontificate of those who claim a 'special relationship' with any one of a Pantheon of deities.'

OR, religion shows us that we innately know there is a Creator, and we seek to imagine Him according to our deceitful hearts, to give us anything but the God who is there and whom we know we are alienated from. But God has spoken to His rebel creation, showing us the way back to Him for all who will repent of their rebellion and trust in Him. The apostle Paul spoke to the great thinkers of his time:



Acts 17:18 Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?”

Others said, “He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign gods,” because he preached to them Jesus and the resurrection.

19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new doctrine is of which you speak? 20 For you are bringing some strange things to our ears. Therefore we want to know what these things mean.” 21 For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing.

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Steve R said...

"I've been totally clear about the innocence of the children"

Oh really? So you agree they were innocent victims murdered through no fault of their own?

Knew it wouldn't take long for the sermon to start...

Cherry picking from a book written by people who believed in magic 2000 years ago isn't a signof good mental health Wolfie, so far you've shown you are a believer in magic and an apologist for mass murder, nothing else.

Wolfsbane said...

Steve R said:
'Oh really? So you agree they were innocent victims murdered through no fault of their own?'

No sin of theirs - it was national sin, the sins of the adults, that brought the slaughter to the nation. And God is entitled to take home saint or sinner when He pleases.

'Cherry picking from a book written by people who believed in magic 2000 years ago isn't a signof good mental health Wolfie, so far you've shown you are a believer in magic and an apologist for mass murder, nothing else.'

Your 'magic' is in reality the spiritual realm. You may be ignorant of its existence, or prefer to be ignorant of it - but many people who have no religion also have encountered something other than the material world around them. Not too many Sadducees survive life without knowing that.