Saturday, September 16, 2017

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Sandals and Scandals

Sean Mallory irreverently has a go at a Belfast reverend and a few others along the way.

The Rev Mervyn Gibson is Grand Secretary of the Orange Order - a distinctly racist and sectarian organisation. Judging by his religious appellation, he is also an ardent follower of Christ's teachings, especially. He has declared himself as a man who can’t be bribed when referencing the potential success rate of persuasion, applicable to Unionists, for a united Ireland.

Although to be fair, with the slight exception to such teachings being those of love thy neighbour, John chapter 0, verse 0: “if thy neighbour should turn out to be Catholic or Irish then smite him down to linger in eternal pain among the heathens and the non-believers in Orangism.”

The good reverend, being a man of God, declared that he finds ‘offensive’ attempts to persuade Unionists to join a United Ireland. And that the UVF gun running of 1912 was not terrorism but that “they were of their period” and “ a community prepared to defend themselves”, and:
I’m British, I was born British, I will die British and I want no part of a united Ireland. I can’t be bought. I can’t be bribed.

Mmmmmm, a Unionist that can’t be bribed, now there is something unique - and obviously not a member of the DUP!

In union with ‘Mervyn's World’ perspective on the history of his community, the heirs of the 1912 gun runners, the UVF's Red Hand Commando have started their own initiative which is backed by the nefarious Loyalist Communities Council.  The latter represents loyalist paramilitary groups including the UDA, UVF and Red Hand Commando, and who publicly endorsed three DUP candidates in the recent Westminster elections - Nigel Dodds, Gavin Robinson and Emma Little-Pengelly. It also endorsed the Ulster Unionist party (UUP) candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone, Tom Elliott. The RHC has lodged a request with the British government to have themselves absolved of their murderous past, sorry, de-proscribed.

Former DUP economy minister Simon Hamilton has previously credited the LCC with attempting to move paramilitaries such as the RHC away from violence but didn’t specifically reject its backing.

I acknowledge the work that the Loyalist Communities Council has been doing in trying to work with paramilitary organisations to try to take them away from their past - I think that is positive, that is something to be encouraged.

He said shortly after the murder of Colin Horner, which is believed to have been part of a UDA internal feud. Now that is an unambiguous method of removing the past or more precisely the person from the past!

Considering their recent endorsement of the DUP, and the DUP being in a coalition of sorts with May's Tories, one can only surmise the outcome of such a request!

Speaking of which ...  the release of the £1bn DUP-Tory deal monies for Norn Iron must be approved by a Commons vote, admits May's government. A condition heretofore never mentioned and one that is unlike their Faustian pact not a done deal especially since  the DUP deal is being challenged in a crowdfunded legal case by Green party activist Ciaran McClean. He claims the deal breaks the promise of impartiality in the Good Friday agreement and also is in breach of the Bribery Act.

The high court has notified both sides’ legal teams that, because of the urgency of the claim, it should be heard in October, at the beginning of the new legal term. It is likely to begin on 26 October.

John Taylor – AKA Lord Kilclooney – and an Ulster Unionist supporter, joined Mervyn's World when he made the apparently rational claim that Nationalists, since they are in the minority to Unionists, could never be regarded as equals.

Applying Taylor's logical thinking to Unionism it would logically conclude that Unionists being in the minority in Britain should never be considered equal to the general British public!
Elsewhere

IOC (international Olympic Committee) member Patrick Hickey, has resigned his executive post. he stated that he didn’t want the scrutiny surrounding his personal ‘deployment’ of tickets in Rio to tarnish or sully the good name of the already tarnished and sullied Committee, Seb Coe anyone. Especially since they gave him £326,000 to pay his bail money .... another Faustian pact ... bless’m!

The Republic's Garda Commissioner Noirin O’Sullivan quit her post due to an ‘unending cycle of scrutiny amid efforts to rectify the failures and mistakes of the past.’ These pertain to the recent garda scandals, including falsified alcohol breath tests, wrongful motoring convictions, financial irregularities at the Garda Training College, and the ill treatment of garda whistleblowers. A pity Foster couldn’t take a leaf out her book!

But all is not lost! Former RUC officer and PSNI deputy chief constable Judith Gillespie who currently sits on the Republic's Policing Authority - and what a job they’ve done - has been tipped as her replacement. That should keep a certain car bonnet-hopping Shinner happy!

Newton Emmerson, Irish News, 17/08/2017, takes a swing at ‘Rebel’ music. He relates a chimerical anecdote where he and a colleague, English perhaps, were ‘compelled’ to join in while sojourning in Ballycastle. The incident lead him to conclude that due to it being a “coy phenomenon” then "rebel music must be a source of embarrassment among nationalists themselves.” 

A common problem for Newton and other Unionists is that they presume to have an understanding of Irish Nationalism and its various facets, based on their own Britishness.


Internationally

Wirathu, a Myanmar Buddhist monk - but no follower of the Dalai Lama - has ignited and stoked through his teachings, the brutal and murderous military campaign of the Myanmar army against the Rohingya Muslims.

Amid reports of the burning of villages and extrajudicial killings, the military campaign is described by The UN High Commissioner of Human Rights, Zeid Ra’ad al-Hussein as “clearly disproportionate and without regard for basic principles of international law.” And calling on the Myanmar government to end its bloody campaign added, “the situation seems a textbook example of ethnic cleansing.”

Aung Sang Suu Kyi, the de facto Myanmar leader, said her government, the first civilian led government in years, blamed the violence on “terrorists” and claimed the controversy has been caused by “a huge iceberg of misinformation” with a good dose of Trump's fake news also!

In response to the brutality, over 400,000 people have signed a petition to strip Aung Sang Suu Kyi of her Nobel Peace Prize. When you look back at some of the past laureates, she's in fine company!

47 comments :

Finn said...

Good articlw sean. I enjoyed reading it

eurofree3 said...

"I’m British, I was born British, I will die British and I want no part of a united Ireland. I can’t be bought. I can’t be bribed".

Ar Merv obviously meant he couldn't be bribed to abandon his "Britishness" (Offer what you will republicans/nationalists, The answer will always be "No Surrender! not an Inch!")

As you said, many Unionists/ DUP members need regular bribes to sustain their "Britishness" - like millions to uphold a minority Conservative administration in Westminster, exotic holidays, seats on Westminster committees, special heating arrangements, and so on and so forth.

https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/09/11/scottish-parliament-vs-ni-stormont-assembly/

DaithiD said...

Is there a country Muslims aren't "persecuted"? Maybe look at the ARSA massacre a few days before this "persecution" for some balance.

AM said...

DaithiD,

you seem to suggest that what happened is not a persecution and to the extent it was it can be mitigated by the previous attack?

DaithiD said...

AM, not just the recent ARSA attack. The Rohingya have been trying to secure their own state with violenc , which mirrors every part of the world Muslims settle in. Turkey, Syria, Iraq are now 99% Muslim, is that lack of diversity not to do with how they treat their neighbours? We are seeing the early stages of this in Europe, the latest tube bombing is particularly close to home for me I use that route daily, I cannot help but be drawn into this. God help Ireland when this comes to you, as it will.

AM said...

DaithiD,

God didn't help Ireland when he the clerical rapists of Christianity had the country in its clutches.

From what I can gather only a small portion of the Rohingya back the ARSA campaign which is not feasible for them. Most of them want to be treated as citizens.

There is nothing in what you say which would lead me to think that there is any mitigatory context in which the murderous behaviour of the state can be justified. I note you are not suggesting as a response to the London tube attack.

I did sign the petition to have the witch's Nobel peace prize to be withdrawn.

DaithiD said...

OMG by witch you mean Aung Sang?No more Damien Rice ballads for her I guess, that piano offends Allah as all pianos do. Funny how whims change. She is realising there is an oppression heirrachy in the world, Muslim males are at the top and any greivence they have trumps other interests when competing.Pretty soon the only culture or prizes we record will be those compatible with Islam, which is supposed to compliment not errode our culture of course.
As with the Rohingya/ARSA of course its a minority that support them, lets face it, this cannard worked for Republicans too. Only aftewards would Brendan Hughes give interviews stating the early 70's campaign couldnt of existed without the people. I just offer this example as some sort of context for these claims, Im not in anyway comparing the merits of the two groups.As I said, there isnt one country in the world they would not say they arent persecuted in, maybe that indicates they are bad neighbours?

In terms of a response to the Parsons Green attacks, lets just assume the public are not on the same page as the politicians who generally say variants on 'we not cowed by this threat', 'its part and parcel of city living' etc.
But when ten year old boys and pregnant women are trampled in a stampede to escape, it shows a true and real fear. If current politicians do not give voice to it, and make people feel safe, then someone will come along who will. Its an amazing risk to be taking, I dont see anyone thinking these attacks will diminish. The cubs of the caliphate will have their shot at heaven, and we are letting them.

AM said...

DaithiD,

Yes, Aung San Suu Kyi but you know that already. Her regime has been extremely brutal.

You accentuate What you can't win by logic with glib assertions about prizes to Islam.

If it is a canard I suppose we could say it works for the KKK and that really all Christians support them. Such lengths we go to in order to satisfy our prejudices.

The Provisional IRA did not have the support of a majority of nationalists. Any claim that it did is the real canard.

Now, because you view it as a canard can we infer from it that you believe the majority of Muslims support the violence of the Islamists?

I guess there is not one country in the world where gay people and women have not complained about being persecuted. Are we to disbelieve them?

What is your proposal for stopping the "cubs of the Caliphate?" Spell it out. Seems to me that a lot of energy is being put into cub curbing.

The greedy rich slaughtered more in Grenfell Tower than the Islamists have yet there seems much less energy being out into curbing them.









DaithiD said...

AM, what is the significance of a majority in anything? If 27% of British Muslims (about 1m) supported the Charlie Hebdo massacre, are to only worry when 51%/2m support it? The same sort of numbers are represented across many topics associated with extremism, I suspect it maybe true of the Rohingya too given the actions of people they shelter.

Gays are happy in Iceland,Norway,Finland Denmark. Guess what societies they are least happy in?

A glib remark is that like making repeated twitter posts making fun of natural disaster sufferers as recieving the wrath of their God? Would you tweet the Burmese Army are the reckoning for the Muslims pursuit of state for better practice of their religion?

My urgent request to dealing with the cubs of the caliphate remains removing all security details from the politicians, we can do this immediately. We need to show we are all in the together, and that political assasination might be part and parcel of administering mass immigration. Any other solution I propose would not extend beyond the UK's borders either.

Grenfell Tower, I couldnt afford to live there.We dont know who to blame yet, it seems to me the enviromentalists have a large portion of it, but I havent read too much about it.

AM said...

The significance of a majority is always more than that of a minority. Unless of course you prefer rule by priesthood that will tell the rest of us how to live.

Grenfell Tower doesn't tax you in the way Islamism does. Why not? We know greed prevented law being enacted.

Gays are happy in the said countries now but it wasn't always the case. Name one country where gays have no history of persecution and experienced no denial of equal rights.

I have often seen those Christian evangelists make fun of the victims of natural disasters. I don't think we can blame al Christians for it.

Would I tween that "the Burmese Army are the reckoning for the Muslims pursuit of state for better practice of their religion?"

No. I would retweet it to show just how warped some people are.

So, you effectively propose doing nothing that would make a difference to curbing the Caliphate Cubs?

DaithiD said...

AM, I stopped paying attention to Grenfell because I tired of seeing misinfo like the inhabitants described as poor, and the bad guys as rich, and the fire as a form of gentrification. I ask you, and you dont need to put it here in reply, when did you ever pay £2000 a month in rent and consider that a poor persons level, essentially that needs a £50k after tax just to pay rent. There was a Syrian refugee in there, given free housing and a paid place at Uni being presented as someone forced to slum in the country, rather than someone given above average assistence from the state. I know about those flats, I used to work in Chelsea, they might resemble the old Divis tower covered in cheap plastic, but Londoners cant (on average ha!) afford to live there. Because of the political needs at present by those covering it, I choose to not have an opinion until more facts emerge in a less emotive time. Im guessing genocidal gentrification is a knee jerk thing, I might be wrong.

I was on about your own twitter AM, not evangelists,you were making fun on Irma/Harvey victims because they are Christians, I actually deleted it for a while until I realised I missed the telegraph articles.

I dont propose doing nothing with the cubs, as a practical first stage, I propose those that are creating this society for the rest of us to endure, are made to endure the same. They need to be made to feel the same as the rest of us to make effective policy, because its clear they arent listening.

AM said...

DaihtiD,

but you don't ask them to share the safe conditions as the residents of Grenfell tower? Nor does the income of the Tower residents detract from the greed of the rich who built them. Sad fact is you are at more risk in London from the greed of the rich than you are from Islamicists.

DaithiD said...

AM, from what I gathered, these panels were added to Tower Blocks to help meet energy efficiency regulations signed upto by Blairs government, if there is a scam my first thought is the enviromentalists on the public teat again.I dont think many people in London would class Kensington & Chelsea residents as poor, I accept the aesthetics of the buildings outsides are horrible and appear a symbol of deprivation.We have inverted the meaning of slums if it now costs 500k to live in one, its Zimbabwe type economics.

There have been 32,000 Islamist attempts at violence since 9/11. 480 approx have died in Europe over the past 3 years due to this strand of terror. Remember, in each attack, if they could of killed 1000's they would have, we dont seem to factor this intent in evaluating different risks. Incase you feel the need to state 'white people are the main source of terror in Europe' remember Lee Rigbys killing was not classified as Islamist terror, and the IRA are included in their white terror stats.

AM said...

DaithiD,

I suppose if we buy into the Tory reasoning then we will blame Blair while ignoring that the cladding policy you refer to started a decade before Blair. And I dare say the most enthusiastic endorsers of your view thus far have been the Tea Party. The Cameron government were warned by coroners of the dangers of this type of thing but ignored it. Corbyn reported that under Cameron "fire safety audits and inspections were cut by a quarters, fire authority budgets were cut by a quarter.” 

480 have died in Europe because of Islamism. How many do you think have died in England as a result of NHS cuts?

Was the army Rigby was a member of regarded as a force waging state terror in other countries?


DaithiD said...

AM, yes waging state terror. But my point is more about if you can be beheaded on a British streetb by (British) people quoting passages of the Koran, and it not be recorded as Islamic terror, you are not going to be able to evaluate the relative risks between it and a building fire.In terms of the NHS, lets see how that logic holds up in future. Maybe others will learn to accept a certain amount of tube bombings like they do NHS deaths.But maybe they are already in a dangerous place mentally, Ive said what the stampede idicated to me. Lets see after the next mass atrocity, and the next , and the next by our invited guests what the climate is like.

AM said...

DaithiD,

it seems its the alarmism arising from the fear factor that prompts you.

If a greater threat to human life is posed by greed why the absence of calls for measures against it.

Are the Muslimns in England any more invited than the Irish who live there?

AM said...

DaithiD,

I don't know why Rigby is not recorded as the target of Islamic terror. It seems the other victims have been categorised as such.

DaithiD said...

Anthony, I know intimately from my parents the reception Irish people got. But in terms of tropes, we are also raised from birth with the tale about 'the boy who cried wolf'. There is now one in our midst and its not being taken seriously. I dont know how people estimate their risks, driving seems to be the number one cause of deaths across the world, I guess its about what is an acceptable risk given a certain reward. Burkas who isolate themselves offer me nothing.

AM said...

DaithiD,

should immigration be stopped?

Should all Muslims be expelled?

DaithiD said...

AM, its makes little sense adding to a problem. Studies have found refugees happier the closer to their own country they can be safely stored. In terms of migrants in general, the weak politicians ashamed of the West will not defend the culture against Islamic special pleading, therefore people are entitled to deduce that the only way this can then be limited is restricting the numbers who practice this faith. No religion was tempered by continuously deferring to it in the public sphere, Islam seeks and gets exemption from any criticism. We don’t need to expel anyone, we just need to stand firm to the best of Western traditions and they will either integrate (best option) or leave of their own volition for a more Islam friendly place. I think the world can be a beautiful mosaic of peoples who look like they have always lived there, rather than an exact blend of the entire the world. My missus loved going to Connemara and seeing the boys with high cheekbones and wild hair and freckles like myself.

AM said...

DaithiD,

I think the Western politicians are trying to defend the Western tradition but are not always sure how to proceed. They are confronted with the liberal dilemma of being tolerant towards intolerance. But if there is a failure to differentiate and instead dismiss all Muslims as the same, then they will be discriminated against on the basis of their religion.

It is simply not accurate to say that Islam seeks and gets exemption from criticism. It is being criticised all the time. Frequently there are Muslims who seek to be exempt but they often don't get that exemption.

DaithiD said...

AM, the leaders are gloating about their planned replacement Swedish Prime Minster Fredrick Reinfeldt "Swedish is only barbarism. The rest of the development has to come from the outside." There was a German Mayor in small German town who told residents worried more migrants were due to arrive than the towns population if they didnt like it they can leave Germany. Its a very dangerous tactic, to humiliate people and gloat about their worry of demise. If you factor in restrictions around speaking about aspects of Islam you seem to have forgotten, its creating a dangerous dynamic in politics. I cannot see the attacks ending, I cannot see the politicians admitting their complicity in the attacks via their immigration policies, and I see no pressure value of free speech to discuss the problems without resort to violence.We are fucked basically, and we are essentially wankers too for we did it too ourselves.

AM said...

DaithiD,

I love the ethnic mix and the multiculturalism. I think society needs to press for the interpenetration of cultures rather than this resistance to other cultures. If we look at the type of culture the West brought to other countries we can hardly claim it was all for the good.

I don't share your apocalyptic outlook. I thin the most dangerous regime in the world right now is white and Christian - Trump.

Should we now ban all Christians who believe in denying women the right to choose?

DaithiD said...

Thanks for your time on this AM its a good back and forth, and its another example where I hope I am wrong, and you are right.

I agree there are benefits to meeting people of different backgrounds, myself and my missus have genes from the furthest apart landmasses (her coastal Japan, myself costal Galway) and she is my first and only ever girlfreind.
I think diversity means something different in scale in Ireland, what additional benefit does the 10 millionth North African bring compared to the millionth? None of the predictions about immigrations, even Enoch Powells grasped the magnitude of whats taken place.(White British now a minority in their capital)

Check out Robert Putnams study on the effect of diversity on a society, he almost didnt publish it because he sought to prove something different to what the data suggested.

We dont suggest what Europeans brought to other countries was all good, but you dont agree with collective blame I thought? Additionally, would you dare that Eritrea is lacking diversity and fundamentally missing something with such a small amount of Europeans in their country? Would we say this about any other culture?

I think the issue around birth is not good versus, both sides have competing virtues, I myself have no firm opinion on it.

AM said...

DaithiD,

Powell encouraged immigration before he made his rivers of blood speech.

Societies should be free to cap immigration at a point where they are no longer able to maintain an infrastructure to ensure that immigrants are treated in terms of their human capacity. They should not cap it because they don't like the religion of the immigrant.

There should be no white British capital. What should it matter in the slightest if it is a black British capital? There are plenty of Black British people. Are the British a minority in London?

Putnam put forward a view which has not gone unchallenged. Almost not publishing it seems an odd approach for an academic? Is breaking new ground not how they make their reputations?

I don't agree with collective blame but when people use terms like the West, they are collectivising an entity and may be responded to in kind.

I most definitely think Eritrea or any country would benefit from an infusion of other cultures including but not restricted to Europeans. Why wouldn't it? The problem for many of those countires is their experience of what Europeans brought.



DaithiD said...

AM, at the time people said Powell was exagerating that a white woman lived on a street surrounded by black people,they thought it was too improbable. I point out the London statistic just emphasise that even those accused of doommongering at the time were underestimating the level of immigration.

Then we can discriminate against Muslims for what they brought to Spain and Southern France too when they occupied there, the millions of Europeans they took for slaves? Look at Dr Bill Warners animation of conflict events in the crusades to see the relative incursions by each group. Incidentally, we were warned before the Iraq War they would never accept occupation anywhere in the region because the Crusades are a lived memory they are all taught at school and it makes them hostile to the West. Interesting how this is forgotten when 2m march into Europe, and supposedly are imbued with the same European ideals the first breaths they take of European air.

Dont forget in the 1950's sub-Saharan Africa had the same GDP per head as China. Half a trillion in Aid to SSA later, China now has the second largest economy in the world. Is this difference only colonialism? Ethiopia was never colonised, why is it not different to those countries that were? You have a very Euro-centric reading of the world, there are other factors that effect the course of a country development.

AM said...

DaithiD,

there is noting wrong with a white woman living in a street surrounded by black people. Powell seemed to be conjuring up the Southern White Belle image that caused so many black men to be lynched.

Did all Muslims dominate Spain and Southern France? Did all Christians wage evil crusades?

Rather than I having a Eurocentric view of the world I feel it is you who has in that you seem to think Europeans superior. Africa was consciously underdeveloped by the West or had its development skewed to serve Western needs. Are you suggesting the inhabitants are inferior to explain the different levels of development?

We know what brought China along the path of economic development. It developed an autonomous model. A writer once said to me she often wondered growing up why there were collections in her school for starving India but none for starving China when each had a similar population.

DaithiD said...

AM, I dont know the causes of different levels of development, I suspect colonialism's legacy is too broad and distant to explain it. But this is the orthodoxy of the new priesthood, we no longer are born with original sin, its white privilege these days. Irish people wont be exempt from this no matter our own experience of exploitation and (close to) genocide.

AM said...

DaithiD,

I don't think there is any one cause but even of we set aside Gunder Frank's Development of Underdevelopment as a template, the history of colonialism has contributed greatly to power disparities.

There is privilege and a lot of it has fallen the way of whites but there are a lot of rich pampered non whites as well. Priesthoods, clerical or secular, are something to be resisted. At the same time do you really think your position in British society is all a result of your own endeavour, and that there was not the shoulders of some slave your position rested upon? Same with me or any of the rest of us who live in Western industrial societies.

DaithiD said...

AM, lets assume both our positions are predicated in some part to the legacy of slavery. At which point is the 'debt' settled, such that no further concessions are warranted? How many admissions of the hundreds of millions would it take in this 'Empire Strikes Back' dynamic? How many further generations would be obliged to make reparations?

Finally you mentioned about Black British people earlier, those who would rightly feel affronted to be denied the benefits and opportunities theoretically afforded to white people, people who should never accept they are a lesser grade of British than white people. Why are they then exempt from the shame of colonialism and the legacy of benefits we are assuming it affords? They are fully British after all. It wasn't only whites that traded slaves, Arabs did too, on a larger scale than Europeans.Should Arabs in the West be expected to make some restorative gestures to their Black neighbors too?

DaithiD said...

PS Just to add something, those people that previously had no concerns about being a minority in their capital city would be forced by rational self interest to, because instead of having new potential friends in their midst, they would proportionally have more recipients to share their wealth with. No other people would be expected to passively accept annihilation. You would make opposition to these people entirely logical, with no tinge of racial motive.

kevin o'neill said...

AM, DaithiD,
that was an eye-opening conversation. Passionate, yes. Intense, yes. Abusive, no. Like Dublin and Mayo, like the oul' Pensive Quill, a classic!
I enjoyed this discourse because I could click on the points being made. I could see the disagreements and sometimes the harmony, and a willingness to acknowledge.
I think I learned quite a bit from this.

Steve R said...

AM/DD,

Enjoying your discourse so please forgive the interjection, how do you feel about an Australian style points system for immigration? When me and the clan moved here we needed 100 points to qualify. Points were attained by having no criminal record, a clean bill of health (we got x-rayed and checked by a doctor), our skill set and also whether that skill set was required in Australia. For the first year we had to pay for medical expenses too. Recently they have decided to introduce an English competency test as well, this just being commonsense for interaction within Australian society has been derided as being 'racist' in some quarters!

AM said...

Kevin,

that is good to know.

I don't feel DaithiD is hopelessly wrong on this or that I am absolutely right. Probing his views against the uncertain backdrop of my own has given food for thought.

Steve,

I think immigration has to correspond to infrastructure and ability. If an economy is failing to support X amount of people and its municipal and public services are under strain, then it makes no sense to increase the population to XX. And there is no purpose other than censorship served by screaming "racist" at those who ask questions.

But this must also be internal to a society. Pointless sending 2000 unemployed Dubs to Cork for work when Cork has a high unemployment list. My point would be that we do not ban people on the grounds of their religion.

I worked with a lot of Romanians a few years ago, ate in their houses, welcomed their children into the world. And despite not having seen them in a few years we remain friends. It was my first lengthy engagement with people who had come here for work with their families. I simply can't see them as different or here to undermine society.

A lot of what is anti-immigration is pure racism but a lot is just natural caution and perhaps an innate conservatism.

DaithiD said...

Kev/SteveR, thank you, its quite hard to discuss this stuff without looking like a bastard, I know this. If Europe was working, the Greek/Spanish/Italian youth with unemployment at shocking levels should have been the first people to entice into Northern European economies like Germany. Instead of this, Merkel has decided the next generation of Germans should come from Eritrea. Much of the topic centers on the rights and duty of care towards the new immigrants but the rights of those already here, who never voted for this, and whom every opinion poll shows are against it. They are trying something on an unprecedented scale, add to this the hostility the invited guests are encouraged to have towards their hosts (for crimes of colonial past), its building in risks for society that until now have not exploded because of the cucked nature of European masculinity, but this might not always be so.
Steve, in terms of points systems, I don’t really know much detail, it would be sad if countries are seen as just giant corporations, and I don’t know about good natured debate, Ive sent him a anonymous parcel of my (well)soiled underwear and bandages!

AM said...

DaithiD,

I don't believe debt and reparations are easily measurable. I very much dislike people being punished or held to account for the sins of their forbears. However, I don't think the state can have as much latitude to evade responsibility.

Nor is it about allowing millions into countries as reparation. It is about not banning them on the grounds that your religion thinks it is superior to theirs. Black people in British society should not be exempt from anything than white people are not exempt from. Exempting people on grounds of their colour seems wrong. Black people and white people should share equally in society. Everybody living in England has benefited from the plunder of other countries. I benefit from the plunder of other countries because the level of development the society I live in has reached has in part resulted from the West's plunder abroad.

I try not to see things in terms in terms of restoration but in terms of justice. Is it just to deny people access to our countries because they are of a different religion?

What annihilation are you talking about that white Londoners are being asked to passively accept because they want to accumulate wealth rather than share it? The one person threatening annihilation at the moment is a White American: as recently as last night in fact.

You needn't expect me to show sympathy to the wealth hoarders who would rather keep it to themselves than set some aside to prevent foreign children drowning before they reach our beaches. I have sympathy for those who feel their security and wellbeing is being put in jeopardy by immigration or austerity. Just none for the greedy rich.

DaithiD said...

AM, relative wealth hoarders. Remember being in the West we are in the top 1% of the worlds wealthy by virtue of birth.In reality, working people who have little joy or money relative to the rest of the country, would still be expected to spare what little they have left of either because someone has chosen to cross continents to claim what he is told is his birthright. I oppose the Royal Family for almost exactly the same reason. As Frankie Boyles says, give these new additions a few generations of unemployment, then we can call them the aristocracy!

Steve R said...

AM/DD,

It's far from perfect here but somebody had their thinking caps on a little while back and realised that while we were short of labour in the rural areas, a lot of refugees were farmers back in their homelands. Somalians have contributed and are welcome in some of these outback towns, the problem seem to arise when the youth are concentrated in one area with little hope of a job or prospects. On the flip side there is an unspeakably stupid idea of 'faith based housing community' in the northern suburbs of Melbourne being constructed, where it will be entirely built according to Islamic beliefs! This in and of itself goes against the goal of a pluralist society but in these days of inerrant social justice any dissent is treated as 'racist'.

One could argue that certain areas of England are already like this. Multi-culturalism is a two edged sword, in DD's defense it is human nature to stick to our 'tribes' but were it becomes difficult is when these tribes insulate themselves. But its unfair to cast this solely on Islam. I have English friends and one thing I have noticed over the years is that by themselves they are grand, get a few more in a group they become aggressive and right wing, add a few thousand they become colonialist Tory bastards with a penchant for looting and pillaging other countries right from the middle ages to present day Majorca!!

AM said...

DaithiD,

by virtue of birth does not mean that the society you were born into achieved its wealth virtuously.

DaithiD said...

AM, I suspect too replacement is part of the agenda, this should still be presented to the people and let them decide if thats something they are comfortable with. They need to be told they will be materially worse off, and there maybe be the odd tube bombing or child gang grooming but the cuisine will be so much more diverse. And explain that they had this coming any way. We have seen the collapse in trust with so many pillars of the west (banks, free press , democracy itself) in such a short period of ten years,if it happened in a decade historians would still consider it the blink of an eye. Introducing another variable into the mix, the most unstable of all, 18-35 year old men with time on their hands is a risk that needs looking at and debating. Maybe Europeans will agree to this additionally wealth transfer (banks first in line of course!) as they have done since migration became a policy aim after WW2. But maybe they wont, what institutions will we cling to if the worst happens and this migration goes wrong? Its setting the scene for a strong man dictator to enter the stage, for all the guff about Trump, we can at least agree he isnt that yet. It can get so much worse.

DaithiD said...

PS I meant if it happened in a century, it still the blink of an eye in historical terms relative to its magnitude and significance.

AM said...

DaithiD,

but who wants to do any of that?

Strikes me as the venting of your own prejudices rather than a serious reflection.

The problem posed by 18-35 year olds with time on their hands is hardly specific to immigrants.

What went wrong that made immigration plausible post World War 2?

Just think what could be done for British society if the rich would part with some of their wealth.

We can't treat people as children of a lesser god and then blame them for it.

DaithiD said...

AM, lets say the ideal scenario would be that the rich have a Damascene revelation with regards to their wealth and how it was gathered, and then decide to redistribute it. However, more likely is the wealth goes offshore in a heatbeat, and we are left footing the bill again, wondering how the fuck we got in such a mess (but not articulating it because of the raft of speech laws we also demanded to protect us from being misgendered on Twitter). As ive said before, just because immigration has worked more or less until now, it does not follow this will always be so, especially with the scale we are now seeing and going to see. Just like some debt was uselful to manage capital, it did not follow that unlimmited debt was that much better. It was a disaster, and we are talking about North African immigration primarily because that is where the biggest amount of people on the move are and will be coming from. The conditions that made 1m want to travel outside their continent to Europe since WW2 are now felt by hundreds of millions, we cannot assume this scale does not make the proposition markedly different.

AM said...

DaithiD,

it sort of tells us something about the nature of greed. More money than they can ever spend and they would prefer to send it offshore rather than contribute it to society. Do you ever read people like Jon Sobrino or Helder Camara on the destruction wrought by the greedy rich?

Societies can only be expected to do what is feasible. And if it becomes unfeasible to allow more people into a country, then it just has to be done. But that country should not start banning people because of their religion which is what you seem to favour.

This thread started not over immigration but over your annoyance at Muslim victims of mass murder being afforded coverage in the media.

DaithiD said...

AM, I must confess, the relative benefits of multinationals siphoning money out of an economy compared to even corrupt union chiefs is changing for me. I notice how these fantastic giant houses up North in the UK used to be attainable for hardworkers, and how this money was cycled back into the local enconomy such that all had a chance of benefitting and that is no longer probable. Multinationals expatriate profits so that its lost to domestic economies seems to explain why growth doesnt reach outside the capital,and even hard work doesnt guarentee a comfortable standard of living. Im juggling alot of these concepts so I will check out your reccomendations. Im interested how these concerns can be managed through a free trade economy. Free trade at home, restrictions on foreign companies might just prevent wars too if expanded for others domestic practice.

AM said...

DaithiD,

my recommendations are merely the expression of a preference for the views of two Latin American priests I have long admired. Helder Camara is now dead. Jon Sobrino is lucky to be still alive given that he was out of the house on the evening the death squads arrived and murdered his colleagues. While Christ the god is a myth Christ the man for the poor is to be found in those two. I thought your belief in Christianity might cause you to find both interesting. I revisit Camara all the time. I first read him during the hunger strikes (The Desert is Fertile). Sobrino, Boff and Gutierrez all came later to me.

DaithiD said...

AM, just to remind you, I dont class myself as a Christian these days. You presented me with the option of condemning the genocide in the Old Testament and that triggered a line of thought that inescapably led to a binary :defending genocide when its in my interest, or condemning it without reservation. Not to say im a passifist, but I had never been presented with arguement as you made it, I could either concede the point or not acknowledge it. I think in public debates, examining ideas, conceding a point is crucial to enthusing others to engage. I used to think the Bible was a set of morals not worse than others, and at least beyond political whims of today, therefore following them was not materially worse to a person. OT genocide was not an instruction I deduced, therefore I didnt pay it much attention. Until offered the chance to condemn it by you. In case you have missed this,I say again, you are onto something with this line of thought, I would dearly love to see what those of faith answer when presented with it.But ive told you this before.