Tuesday, January 3, 2017

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Ukip Flouting All The Rules

Mick Hall writing @ Organized Rage looks at:

The State regulates how national emblems are flown and Thurrock UKIP broke every one of the rules and guidelines.

Dealing with Ukip is like trying to play chess with a pigeon. Even if you win within the rules, the pigeon will clutter up the pieces, and finally it will shit on the chessboard, leaving you to deal with the mess.


I have no desire to revisit the flags furore which erupted after I wrote an article in which I implied Ukip may be using the national emblem as a political weapon. But before I put this issue aside I must deal with the misinformation Ukip have poured out on social media.

I first thought any differences I had with Ukip over the flags were minimal and centered on when and where the flags should be flown. Whereas I believe the Union flag should only be displayed on Armistice day, on special ceremonial occasions like the Monarch's birthday and on designated days.*

UKIP's position as I quickly found out was political: they believed they had a right to fly the national emblem when, where, and how they wished to.

Understandably when and how the Union Jack is flown is taken seriously by the British State, and there are clear guidelines laid down which all local authorities must ​abide. Indeed as far as I'm aware there is not a single local or city wide ​council in the UK who would not have taken down ​the UKIP flags, ​thus ​the guidelines are worth briefly setting out. The full version of the rules and guidelines can be read here.

The national flags of the United Kingdom, ie. the Union Flag and the flags of England, Scotland and Wales should only be displayed in a dignified manner befitting the national emblems. Flags are normally flown from sunrise to sunset but they may also be flown at night, when they should be illuminated.


The flag must have the permission of the owner of the site on which they are displayed. This includes the Highway Authority if the sign is to be placed on highway land. They should also be flown from a flag pole.

Only one flag on a vertical flagpole on the roof of a building is permitted. UKIP ignored all these regulations and guidelines. They had no permission from Thurrock Council to fly the flags indefinitely, and by hanging them from lamp posts they displayed them in an undignified manner not befitting the national emblems. When UKIP refused to do so Thurrock Council had no choice but to take them down.

Looking back, and taking into account the ferocious way Ukip members and supporters have reacted on social media to this issue, I see their response as indicative of how extremists often lash out when they're criticized or challenged, whether they're Islamic, or on the far right like Ukip.

These posts on the otherwise excellent Thurrock Your Say Facebook page give a flavor of their response:

In a post he has now taken down the UKIP local councilor Jack Duffin attacked Thurrock council officers and workers as unpatriotic and hating their country because they had been assigned the task of taking the flags down.

He went on to say: "I'm embarrassed to be a Councillor in Thurrock Council. Time for them to apologise or resign."

This was followed by this comment from another member or supporter of UKIP:

Anyone that is not loyal to this country and its flag should not be allowed to work in the government whether it be local of national government. sack the lot of them as they are not what this country needs or want.


Thankfully like a breath of fresh air Duffin's fanatical and divisive comments were followed by the viewpoint of a far more level headed individual. "They hate this Country because they are taking down flags? Isn't that a tad dramatic?"

I would challenge any reasonable person to read that Facebook page and not conclude some of the comments posted by UKIP and its supporters were clearly designed to intimidate those who disagree with them. As for myself I'm far to old and weary to be intimidated by internet trolls, but I do worry we now have UKIP councillors in Thurrock who will not only tolerate such wretched behavior in their own ranks, but also participate in it.

When I read Ukip's bile and hate I'm reminded of the words of Abe Lincoln when he took aim at the ​political rascals and schemers of his age​.

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." So said the great US president Abraham Lincoln.


* As to the England flag as I wrote in my blog I well understand why England supporters may wish to hoist their flag when their national team is playing. I would add to that it can also be flown on St George’s Day.

29 comments :

Christy Walsh said...

Mick I would generally see no problem for any country to fly its flags all year round if they want -it is when they hoist their flag over occupied or contested territory where difficulties come up. I understand there could be a technicality over having permission or ownership of the pole or lamp especially where it is english public property within the territory of England. I would object to the union jack being flown outside my house but if I lived in England, and I am not English, I would just accept the flag flying as part of being in England -if the flag offends me so much I can just leave England again -that is perhaps one of UKips points I suppose. If English people came to Ireland and objected because someone was flying the Tricolour I wouldn't pay much heed to them -even if they made the technical points you make about ownership of lampposts -people generally have a sense of pride in their national flag. GAA plans to silence the National Anthem from being played at National sporting events is no more than political correctness and appeasement going too far -I say English flags in England and the Irish national anthem for Ireland -and even crescent moons on Mosques.

larry hughes said...

Agree with Christy here. The SF notion that getting the GAA to do away with the national flag and anthem at its events is going down the Rugby Union road. SF should take up rugby.

DaithiD said...

Christy, I agree with your points entirely. You just know he doesnt think the same about say Palestinian flags, or the preservation of antiquated practices of Native Americans. Then it would be 'neo-colonialist' (something with a neo prefix anyway) to try and restrict their displays in any way. The flags of the UK arent my flags, but I recognise they mean something to others and within its borders its legitimate to fly them (obviously flying them in Ireland isnt the same). Mick is pressuming the offence of others as usual, and just because some might object, doesnt mean their view is valid. Its another example of how those on the Left really have little in common with those they claim to represent.

Steve R said...

Amazing how worked up some people can get over an abstract symbol. Being 'offended' by a piece of cloth with a pattern on it is not only ridiculous, it's not any sort of argument against it either, nor is getting worked up about the 'taking down' of such.

Baffled why the GAA wants to remove the Soldier's Song, a leopard disnae change it's spots as far as the prods are concerned and I doubt any prods would be there to hear the silence instead!!! LOL

kch said...

I rather object to being lectured about how and when to fly my national flag by a convicted terrorist.

The lamp posts in Thurrock belong to the people and are administered by the council. The council did not pay them. Taxpayers did. Nonetheless, there are rules around affixing anything to street furniture. For the council to remove our national flag is curious behaviour nonetheless and I support anybody who is instilling pride in our nation, its national anthem and flag. We need a bit more of this.

We are a great country and have for decades been quietly degrading ourselves. It is about time that we proudly hold our heads up once more.

larry hughes said...

Steve R

EXACTLY. SF are deluding themselves that the more they bend over and lube up the sooner the Unionist/loyalist community will be seduced. Obviously an Adams family procedure for getting ones way.

AM said...

Kch,

thank you for your comment. But please do enlighten your readers as to what "terrorist" offence Mick Hall, the clearly stated author of the piece, was convicted of.

Organized Rage said...

This was never about flying a national emblem in a civilized way as many people do in the USA, the way Ukip went about it was nothing like that. Firstly as I wrote in the piece they scattered the national emblems like confetti across the borough's villages and towns. Having first been given permission by the council to fly the emblems on Merchant navy day and armistice day they then refused to take them down. As an internationalist flying any national flag is not my cup of tea, but I understand and accept it is for many people. Ukip then left these flags, damp, limp, and a little ragged hanging from lampposts which to me showed they didn't give a toss about them. They had acted like tomcats marking their territory, the problem was it was not their territory to mark and like the BNP before them their aim was to claim the national flags as their own and stick a finger up at all who disagree with their wretched behavior.

When my article challenged their right to behave in this way they let loose a torrent of hate and abuse aimed out me, but rather than bolstering them it backfired because they exposed themselves for what they are a party which have no policies beyond gaining power who will brook no opposition. In the end the pressure became so intense our Tory led council had no choice but to take the flags down. By the way Ukip also insulted and raged against the council workers who were tasked with taking the flags down when all they were doing is their jobs. (That’s another story)

What has happened here since Ukip replaced the BNP as the main far right party, few people have been willing to stand up to them as they fear they will become the recipients of a shitstorm of abuse and up until now that has not been an irrational fear, thankfully this is now beginning to change.

If the Quill is about anything it is standing up to those who believe they can get their own way by instigating such shitstorms of abuse and smears. As AM once said to me standing up to those who instigate such attacks is a war of attrition.

Happy new year to all

Mick

Christy Walsh said...

Steve

I get your point but national flags are not abject symbols but living legal entities protected in law with international recognition. Yes they are used to mark or claim territory from curbstones to the moon but they are also used for more than just that -they have a meaning as clear as the written word and are used in every day life from quality marking national produce to solemn tribute in death, and people see it as an honour to wear their country colours at international events from chess tournaments to the Olympics. As you might have picked up from the tone of KCH's probable libel of Mick Hall, many English people are feeling very insecure in their own country -as an Irish comedian pointed out -they invaded half the planet and are now upset because the peoples they invaded followed them home.

DaithiD said...

"What has happened here since Ukip replaced the BNP as the main far right party, few people have been willing to stand up to them as they fear they will become the recipients of a shitstorm of abuse and up until now that has not been an irrational fear, thankfully this is now beginning to change."

Except the thuggish UAF (who dont engage in the democratic protest), beating up old people who attended UKIP meetings Brighton for example.I wonder if UKIPers realised they need to defend themselves against Left wing thugs who badly need them to be the new BNP, who need to create a climate of violence to justify their own urges. I expect you lot to get more and more violent the more irrelevant you become, in the event of this,let us not forget who re-introduced the jackboot to the democratic protest.

Organized Rage said...

DaithiD

UFA, left wing thugs, you lot, introducing jackboots in democratic protest, what is all that about, deal with what I wrote not what you imagine I meant, I thought you were better than that. I can stand up for myself but do you really believe it's OK to intimidate council workers and demanding they lose their jobs for carrying out the tasks assigned to them by their employer. Thankfully unlike you the local plod thought otherwise and a more level headed Ukip councillor apologised. You realise your now off my christmas card list ;-)

Christy Walsh said...

Mick I can imagine how they might use the flag to get peoples backs up -it is their flag but that's not to say that they should behave anyway they want just because they feel that they can. Its not like I have not seen that sort of behavior in Belfast but I really don't care that much if English, French or Dutch people are hoisting their national flags from every street lamp in their own country -nationals are generally encouraged to take ownership of their own flag and give it pride of place. My father often commented on the respect shown to the Tricolour and Union Jacks by those who put them up -they were neglected to fade and get tattered and torn from the elements -but some people just don't have that same regard for their national flag. I think the problem arises from a sense of insecurity or identity crisis when people start to think quantity is more important than quality.

Steve R said...

Larry,

Sounds romantic, maybe throw some of those RHI wood pellets on the open fire to set the ambiance lol

Christy,

It was more exasperation that people feel the need to get 'offended' as though that's a coherent argument one way or the other, when it's anything but.

Baffled what 'kch' is on about to be honest, if flying a flag is somehow instilling pride in a country rather than being a nation that strives for noble and virtuous causes then I am happy to be humble.

If he's having a dig at Anthony because he clearly didn't read who was the actual author of the piece, then I suggest he campaigns to reinvigorate comprehension in the UK school system!

larry hughes said...

Steve R

You accuse me of being entertaining, the wife in stitches at your 'mood setting' suggestion.

DaithiD said...

Mick, the scenario you are outlining needs context, you wouldnt want to mislead people surely?
The Left wrote the text book on intimidating peoples employers to fire people whose politcal views they disagree with (usually sending unflattering screenshots to peoples HR Departments), Councils have refused people with UKIP stickers in their window adoption of children because this BNP myth persists. Everything you are detailing needs context, because it might come across you are a victim, rather than experiencing the long overdue pushback.

Organized Rage said...

Daithi

I would be interest to have evidence of your claim that councils have refused to allow people to adopt children because they have ukip stuff in their window, context is everything as you say. Friends of mine are Ukip supporters and during their married life they have fostered 37 children, when I visited them in 2015 and they had a Ukip election poster in the window. As someone who was blacklisted for trade union activities I would be appalled to learn of people snitching to employers about people's political views not least because for years in the 1980s I could not get work on construction sites due to such behavior. Still looking back, one door closed and eventually another opened up, such is life. As you wrote context is everything.

DaithiD said...


Here you go Mick,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20474120

Its the BBC, you just know they would spin it if there was a way they could, so just accept it. And if you claim the context here is that UKIP are racist, then we are going to disagree. Im sorry you didnt find employment because of your beliefs, Im on your side with that, I have no politcal dog in the fight for any politcal persuasion.I dont vote at all, let alone UKIP.

DaithiD said...

For our friends abroad, this is the same council that covered up the rape of 1500 young girls by Muslim rape gangs, so scared they were of being called racist if they addressed it. The story is so bad people think its made up.


http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham


Flying the flag is small fry compared to rape of a generation, and its still going on there, and in other cities! Its still going on Mick. Oh god i have murderous thoughts when i ponder it all for too long, and im not the only one.

larry hughes said...

Organised Rage

I can see no reason a UKIP supporter should be prevented from fostering kids. Unless of course they were on the sex offenders list. No more than a SF/ff/FG party member or supporter here in Ireland. Personally I think a little nationalism is an admirable thing. If business people and corporations possessed a little the world would be a much better place. Trade union abuses in the 70s led to Thatcher I think. The workers saw the abuses of union activities. Sadly the miners paid the price and my heart goes out to those communities in the same way as it does to our own here at home. State terror unleashed.That is why I like the SNP, nationalism with integrity and a sense of responsibility.

wolfe tone said...

DaithiD, the BBC didn't cover up the fact that Muslims were involved in the Rotherham abuse scandal. What they and the British state did was to allow the 'Muslim' equation to come in to the story in order to distract and deflect from the umpteen abuse inquiries/scandals perpetrated by white Christians, I.e English natives. The BBC is very adept at reminding us who we should hate. Take a look at the Westminster inquiry and how the state is appearing, on the face of it, to want to get to the truth but in reality wants to cover it up.

Btw, closer to home I recall loyalists were exposed not that long ago, for taking young kids from care homes and abusing them. That was quickly moved on and not focussed on. Big question must be who and what the fxxx is running these care homes. I listened to a London vice squad officer a while back describe how he discovered to his horror that his superiors and govt authorities know the abuse that is going on at care homes but forced him to back off from investigating further not because the abusers were Muslim......far from it.

DaithiD said...

PS If you are wondering what rape gangs have to do with this subject, im trying dispel and any myth that the council were just being overly cautious with childrens welfare, it was nothing so noble.
Larry the miners story in the 80's is quite interesting. The Left see it as a defining conflict where mining communities were decimated by design by a hostile government, and the Left organised their defence. That was a few mines in the UK, now the Left want to shut down every coal mine around the world because their new shiny toy 'the enviroment' is more sexy than those same communities that survived the initial state hostilities, but whose product of labour might pump out dreaded CO2. These bastards feed off others misery, I would not trust them anywhere near Ireland independence movements.

Organized Rage said...

DaithiD

Thanks for posting the fostering, ukip/stuff. As you well know agencies try to place children with families who come from similar backgrounds. it’s a pity the article doesn’t tell us where the kids came from, it might have shed more light on the matter. My Ukip friends who went to school with me on a tough working class estate, normally foster children from a similar background. it makes sense because their foster parents understand the pitfalls these youngsters can face because even though it was a long time ago in the case of my friends, they (we) also faced them. Drugs, easy money, sink schooling, unscrupulous employers when we left school at 15, the criminal justice system, that type of stuff.

I don't feel you understand today's British left at all, true we have had our share of louts and hateful people, and probably still do, but that is not unique to us, but you only centre on them. You seem to see us as a homogeneous lump of hatred and violence and nothing could be further from the truth. But hey don't let me wobble your prejudices. You arrogantly claim we socialists feed on other peoples misery, well I can tell you bluntly much of the misery created has been inflicted on me and mine and working class people like us. We are far from stupid pliable fucks as you seem to believe, working class leftists like me fight our own corner and in these struggles the best of middle class socialists have often stood along side us.

You mentioned the socialist left's involvement in the Irish independence movement in a contemptuous manner, in doing so you spit on the graves of Connolly, Mellows and countless other socialist militants who fought British occupation and oppression. Or wouldn’t you trust AM or the likes of Tommy Mckearney near the Irish independence movement?

Larry

If I lived in Scotland I may well have joined the SNP rather than Corbyn LP.

DaithiD said...

Mick, you make the 'homogenous lump' defence in an article where you have said UKIP are the replacement BNP?

You keep searching for the context of UKIP'ers being denied foster rights that makes it finally sit right with you, most people would assume some of their pre-suppositions were wrong . Ill keep spitting on the graves of Irelands patriot dead in the meantime, man, if enemies like this didnt exist, you would have to create them wouldnt you?

DaithiD said...

Wolf tone,I never said the BBC covered up Rotherham abuse, I said the Child Services Dept. did, and I posted a link to report that reached that same conclusion. You too need Muslims to be the victims in this? A very jaundiced view, but you are not alone in holding it.

wolfe tone said...

DaithiD, "You too need Muslims to be victims in this?"....I don't understand your point.
I will clarify my point for you, there was no 'cover up' of Rotherham just because the perpetrators were Muslim. There was a cover up of all the care home abuse cases all over UK and the state was under pressure trying to keep a lid on the scandals. So in their wisdom they fired out the 'Muslim' equation so as to distract and take the focus off the nationwide abuse and put the focus on to Muslim bit. Ruling by fooling.
I don't know what 'jaundiced view' I have so please explain.

Organized Rage said...

Daithi

We are beginning to go in circles, but to be clear, Ukip has replaced the BNP as the main far right party in my area, it is a simple fact, and I have never claimed they are fascists, why because they are not. I also said in a previous article on this subject; "not for a moment do I regard as racists and bigots all those who voted for UKip." I would add, nor are all its members but some are. I thought that would be obvious when I mentioned a friend is a member. I understand and sympathise with the reasons why some working class people joined or voted for Ukip, as they were badly let down by the British LP but I believe it is a mistake they may well come to regret.

The flags furore is the only time I have had any personal dealings with them; but what it told me is Farage, Aker, and Nuttall are dangerous demigods who will say and do anything to gain some form of power and they mainly do this by manipulating and enhancing peoples prejudices and fears. All the best, Mick

DaithiD said...

wolftone,Its pointless arguing things that have already been accepted by everyone accept a fringe.I personally dont think Rotherham Council to be the epicenter of the Elite Peado ring coverup, if you find anything substantial to back that up equivalent to the report i linked to ill reconsider.Ill not be replying to more things when you dont have the good grace to consider my points. Read the report, you may change your mind, or explain to me how its wrong and ill give way.

wolfe tone said...

DaithiD, talk away in riddles but I care little. I asked for explanation and none was forthcoming, sin é.

DaithiD said...

Wolftone,You keep saying there wasnt a cover-up, this was the key finding of the report, because unfortunately whilst evidence of child rape isnt too uncommon in itself, Councils verfiably promoting it in the name of community cohesion is.There are no riddles. Its just on any subject where Muslims are the issue, someone always wants to equivocate or obscure the story.But anyone can bullshit on internet forums, and each is given similar priority because of the formatting of sites. But ill just conclude with pointing out you have provided nothing of substance to this,and negate analysis when it cant be backed up (in my better times-but genuinely, i do love a good consipiracy).Before i become the bar room bore....