Monday, July 18, 2016

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The Rory McIlroy Generation

Peter Anderson promotes a Northern Ireland identity. Peter Anderson is a unionist who frequently comments on TPQ.

On my recent trip to France with the Green and White Army to support Northern Ireland one topic kept raising its head: the national anthem.

For all of my life the singing of God Save The Queen (plus the wee No Surrender bit) at Northern Ireland matches was sacrosanct; not anymore. More and more GAWA are arguing for a neutral anthem and I am one of them. The sight of the team lining up before a game with the prods mumbling away and the micks looking nervously at the ground is not a unifying or inspiring time for the players. Sure the Scots have Flower of Scotland and Wales have Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau, while the Irish rugby team have the unifying Ireland’s Call so surely the time has come to get our own anthem. And while we’re at it why not get a new flag? There is no great desire, north or south, for a united Ireland so why not get on with making our wee country less hostile to the non-British that live here. I don’t need flags or anthems to remind me of my nationality. The NHS and the pound in my pocket do a better job of that. A neutral anthem and flag is a no-brainer for me. The IFA will be discussing it soon so I’ll keep my fingers crossed.

This debate throws up the wider issue of what it is to be Northern Irish. Many of our young people have grown up after the Troubles or in areas unaffected by the Troubles. With the wonderful slow death of religion, many of these young people have no regard for past loyalties. In the 2011 Census 48% of respondents put their nationality as British, 28% put Irish while an incredible 29% put Northern Irish. Given the figures on religion it is clear that the biggest proportion of these “Northern Irish” are from a catholic background and the press were quick to call them the “Rory McIlroy Generation”.

Rory is the product of a mixed marriage, brought up in a secular home in a protestant area. He went to a catholic primary school and a protestant grammar school. He regularly attends the Northern Ireland football games and the Ulster rugby games like many young people from a similar background. He always claims to be Northern Irish and proud of it.

This desire to designate as Northern Irish seems to be growing within the younger generation. Queen’s University has recently added a course to their part time curriculum to study this phenomenon. NI21 tried (unsuccessfully) to ride this particular wave with Basil McCrea claiming that both unionism and republicanism was hostile to “Northern Irelandism” growing. Unionism fears that the emblems of British rule will be removed in a “greening” of the North, while republicanism fears the entrenchment of partition.

In my opinion both sides are wrong. Unionism needs to think outside of the sectarian box. Religion is dying and the old certainties no longer exist. Unionism needs to convince people from both sides that staying in the UK is better for us all. With Bexit and the rise of the SNP we live in interesting and uncertain times. By encouraging the Rory McIlroy generation and improving community relations Northern Ireland can only get better. Why would unionism be against that?

Republicanism should not fear the Rory McIroy Generation either. With no real push for a UI, better community relations will only help their case further down the line. If a UI does come it will not be a 32 county republic, that’s for sure. We will still be ruled from Stormont in a 23 + 9, 26 + 6 or Eire Nua type arrangement. Better community harmony will only make any transition easier. I suspect many republicans feel Northern Irish anyway. Partition and then the Troubles have made Northern Ireland a place apart from the rest of the island in many ways. Belfast is closer to Glasgow than Cork and not just geographically. Eamon Collins (not the IRA’s favourite son) wrote in his book that he felt more at home in Glasgow than in Dublin, but always longed to come back to the North. It would be interesting to hear other exiles’ opinions!

For me there is nothing more depressing than seeing streets carved up with tattered union Jacks and Irish tricolours on lampposts. The younger generation cares little for our old battles; we have all let them down. It is time to move on and while we work things out we might as well have a neutral space to live in with emblems that we can all identify with. If that means an anthem and flag that both Niall Maginn and Steve Davis can get behind then bring it on.

36 comments :

larry hughes said...

It would be easy to inject some terse slap-down regarding future kiddies history lessons in respect to their wee state etc etc. Would schools adopt the Japanese post WW2 method of banning history altogether? But that would be detrimental to a well considered and thoughtful article. You touch on a lot of important issues there and surprisingly do not rule out an Eire Nua 'final-solution'. Sean Bresnahan and the Goot will be requiring smelling salts! The prospect of the North playing England and the one anthem being sufficient was an amusing aside during the Euros. When it comes to the notion of a new 'fleg' and national anthem may I suggest you lot make a better job of it than Stormont did with the 'New City' venture back in the 1960s which they imaginatively, for them, gave the name Craigavon... an inspired choice! Why not put Martin and Michael O'Neill in joint charge of a 32 county national team, one 'surname' on the contract suffices and adopt shoulder to shoulder as the anthem?

I have NEVER felt comfortable in Glasgow personally. Hate the fucking place. But I certainly am an Ulsterman. I live in Co. Donegal and it is far enough 'south' for my liking. Prod majority here in E. Donegal and sectarianism simply isn't an issue. I lived in Sligo for a few years during the 'tiger' years and drove a taxi, taught English in the VEC and worked in TESCOS all at the same time after initially having worked on the building of the Glasshouse Hotel. Never a weekend went by without some 'fare' asking me are you from Donegal? (they remove the 6 counties from primary school maps it seems'down there) It got to the stage I said aye I'm from a wee place in Donegal called ARMAGH!! But I do think that it is funny that someone from a culture and identity stemming from the British occupation here and with a British loyalty finds it 'heartening' that we would feel an affinity to our own home in IRELAND, Priceless! It is a well thought out article and an interesting read and I do genuinely wish you well in your continued attempt at fixing your identity crisis, but I for one will NEVER NEVER NEVER support the wee black north.

nicola kerr said...

McElroy doing the bouncy and we all know the story behind that little ditty a knew generation my ass there has always been west Brits about all he's interested in is pounds shillings and pence like all the so called superstar's

Tonyol Dublin said...

If there is ever to be a united Ireland, then the first few steps have to be based on a decision by Unionists to go it alone for a while, but with significant financial support from the UK as a safety net. If this works out, then maybe unionists may decide to make it a permanent arrangement - provided there is permanent financial support from the UK.
The next steps will be deciding whether it is in the best interests of NI to abandon UK support and replace it with EU support for a united Ireland, which will be absolutely necessary to support a united Ireland.
A lot of ifs, ands and buts, but a lot better than claiming territory by painting kerbsides!

Steve Ricardos said...

Larry,

Our 'Culture and Identity' stems from our Ulster- Scots roots, not Whitehall. We are first and foremost Ulstermen. Like I said before, we can't be an Ulsterman without being Irish. We can see Britain has been an utter b*stard during it's colonial reign but you can't exactly hold 'us' responsible for their actions.

You would not find 'us' blaming modern day Dubliners for the Republic providing safe haven to Nazi's after 1945, Hitlers favourite Commando among them. It would be silly to do so. Nobodies history is perfect.

Peter has written a great article and one which I agree with. There is definitely a change among the supporters of NI to have their own neutral anthem, and I am most certainly not alone when refusing to sing 'GSTQ'. I'm an unbeliever in dieties and more proud of my Scottish roots than anything to do with Greco-German wankers in castles.

I always liked Danny Boy as a song, usually because I am told I sing it well when pished!!!

Nicola,

The bouncy has been done from when I was a wean in the 80's and I remember it then, what is the story behind it?


Niall said...

Peter,
Not a bad article but reaching out to Unionists only. It had very little within it that would appeal to Nationalists. The very ideology of Nationalists means that they will never accept this British State. They may live and prosper as best they can within it but to expect them to publicly endorse it through a football team that has been and still is inherently anti-Nationalist is a hell of a call to make. Changing a flag or anthem just won’t cut it.
Amusingly enough, Unionism seems to imply an understanding of Irish Nationalism but from within a Unionist perspective. Odd how you all do that. You constantly try to widen the gap between all the Irish on this Island by creating differences that don’t exist. An Irishman from Cork has no less in Irish identity than an Irishman from Dublin with an Irishman from Belfast....he’ll tell you that himself! It is Unionism that implies otherwise and thus deludes itself that it has the solution.
Attempts by Unionists to imply a completely separate identity within ‘Irishness’, both in State and people, only exacerbates the situation and hardens Nationalist attitudes even more since they perceive a constant whittling by Unionism of their identity. Besides all this, Brexit has thrown a real spanner in the Unionist machine......it’s about to break down Peter.

Peter said...

Niall
Thanks for your comment. I am not trying to reach out to anyone. During my brief time as a member of NI21 I was gobsmacked at the amount of "catholics" in the party, people who despised Irish republicanism and political unionism. It convinced me more and more that we need a neutral space until any such time when change is voted for, whether the 6 counties are part of the UK or a federal Ireland.

I think you are too hasty on Brexit though. It may prove to be a spanner in the works or it may not. Only 8 years ago there were thousands in the south complaining at German inflicted austerity in the 26. Now the same people are proclaiming the EU as the promised land. Enda would shit his pants if the wee 6 were thrown into his lap. My guess is we will be here a while yet.

larry hughes said...

Steve Ricardos

Dear oh deary me!! The old chestnut of Dublin colluding with the Nazis. Really as accurate and true as Norn Iron soccer fans singing about the German bombers in the sky and the Ulster RAF shooting them down. PLEASE take a VERY severe redner!! Also, you need to look toward America regarding Nazi collusion, the Nazi scientists allegedly colluded in putting the yanks on the moon. Only problem was they didn't put them fukn all up there. This is the problem with norn iron in general, the delusional mentality. Draw a wee line across a map and pretend this isn't really Ireland. I agree with Peter the 26 counties do not want the unionist - British ex-pat community in the 6 counties under its responsibility, at this time. But lets face who the hell does lol ? After several more generations of austerity up there, across there, down there? (THERE!) not from the EU but from London based Tory and Unionist Party, and with alterations to the demographics the time may turn out rite later on. I would also remember the Boris and Ferage effect in the Brexit campaign and not get too carried away with the idea of RC moderates saving the union in the future, they have long memories too those can and will be refreshed and rebooted come the time.

DaithiD said...

Not sure about that Niall, we call Dubliners Jackeens out in Connemara.

Niall said...

Peter,
Catholics don't necessarily make Nationalists and thus those in NI21 who were Catholics were not Nationalists. I know quite a few Nationalists who have no religion or prefer not to practice or be associated with one.
I don't advocate a federal Ireland as a solution at all either. I see it rather as kicking the can further down the road. I also don't see the necessity of convincing Unionists that their interests lie in a United Ireland. Why the need for such is beyond me! There has been this 'conditioning' of the Irish people in to accepting that the future will not change without the Unionist say so or Britain's for that matter.
Things change in politics very quickly and one thing that the local result of Brexit has highlighted to the Irish people is that the EU it would seem is more important than the Union and from a Nationalist point, they don't need Unionist permission anymore! Now that should be alarming for Unionism!!!!!

larry hughes said...

selectyive democracy selecytive amnesia from the wee huns at all times

Steve Ricardos said...

Larry,

Not 'colluding' during, but looked the other way AFTER the war. Not surprising given how much sway the RC Church had in the south back then. Saying the US did the same is hardly a measure of virtue either!

Regardless, surely you see my point? Not delusional, just don't think anybody's history is perfect. And who's pretending 'it isn't Ireland'? I'm not. When I am asked these days were I am from I say Ireland. People down here have no understanding of any difference and it makes my life easier.

You think the South want you troublesome Northern Catholics either? lol

Not us Huns who are delusional ye drunken header! lol

larry hughes said...

Steve Ricardos

I wonder how long your Irish identity will last upon a return to the unionist fold in the black north. Everyone is a Paddy abroad. How does that feel? Convenient how yer Irish in Australia, and amusing. The fact that GB would expect Ireland to automatically fall into line in its latest Imperial global campaign of war in 1938 is the amazing thing. After the Irish experience at England hands why was there an automatic sense of obligation? Speaking German would be no more a blip than speaking English. Why would we care if the English got a taste of their own medicine? Eire did far more for the Brits than they were entitled to expect. And lets face it the Brits have hardly been a peace loving nation either before WW2 nor since, have they? Not even going to address post war Stormont baloney and propaganda. The facts about the wee 6 county contribution are there for all to see. Stayed at home and got paid while they loafed about. Wanted to send the RCs to fight in their place. Three times Craig called for conscription knowing prods were safe from it. And the social elite spent much of their time in Donegal and Dublin hotels eating the best of food that money could buy. Check out Lord Londonderry and his Nazi buddies.

As for Peter's article here. If the Chinese had planted 1 million Chinese in Hokaido and those planters were loyal to China and refused to integrate or work with the rest of Japan how long do you think it would take before the Japanese of Hokaido would consider themselves Chinese? Delusional is indeed what you lot are. British ex pat community.... confused.com

Peter said...

Steve Ricardos
Now, now don't be getting Larry angry. You wouldn't like Larry when he's angry. Last time he wrote a gloating post about the Brits being murdered on a Tunisian beach and had to take himself off to the naughty step for a few months with his tail between his legs. He is a sore loser so go easy on him.

Unknown said...

"Given the figures on religion it is clear that the biggest proportion of these “Northern Irish” are from a catholic background"

Equal proportions are from each community, although this hasn't always been the case:
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2015/Community_Relations/NINATID.html

"This desire to designate as Northern Irish seems to be growing within the younger generation. Queen’s University has recently added a course to their part time curriculum to study this phenomenon"

I was going to teach this course, but unfortunately not enough people signed up for it (make of that what you will). There has been virtually no change in Catholic preference for this identity since 1989. The only change over time has been among young Protestants, but this has not been in line with changes in political or social attitudes. Northern Irish to this group may be a re articulated regional loyalist identity much like Ulster. It may make you no less British than someone who considers themselves Scottish, Welsh or English.

"Religion is dying and the old certainties no longer exist. "

Religious observance certainly is, but religion is generally a better predictor of political and social attitudes than national identity.

"By encouraging the Rory McIlroy generation and improving community relations Northern Ireland can only get better. "

NI identification is associated with more conciliatory attitudes towards the tradtional outgroup, but this is dependent upon how it is understood. Northern Ireland/northern Ireland as a place is definitely supported by both sides, but the Northern Irish political project of centrism is supported by very few, and fewer support a new flag.

"I suspect many republicans feel Northern Irish anyway"

You're right there- but it can be better expressed as a northern Irishness that infers an alienation from the south, not in spite of, but because of their republicanism.

"The younger generation cares little for our old battles"

Young people tend to have more extreme political attitudes than the older generation:
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2015/Community_Relations/MXRLGNGH.html

"while we work things out we might as well have a neutral space to live in with emblems that we can all identify with"

Or very few people identify with. There is a danger of creating a third group in the scenario with its own prejudices. Those who identify as Northern Irish often view Irishness and Britishness as a problem that needs to be solved, and so can lead to prejudicial attitudes to any public expression of identity.

larry hughes said...

Peter

Are you or any of your British mates going off to Tunisia this year? Giving it the old stiff upper lip and not giving into terrorism. Thought not. I stand by my statement back then 100% not my problem if people cannot handle the reality, they should stop reading the SUN. I also said Kushadasi could be next. Turkey certainly has had its problems since. They brought it on themselves in Tunisia those pathetic Brits with their fake superior attitude. I see you have not come back on my British ex-pat - planter comparison of 'Chinese in Hokaido' regarding your daydream believer football article. No surprise there really. Big Arlene Foster and her 'bate the drum' politics going to get a wee rattle when article 50 enacted in the near future too. Delusion encounters reality. Hollywood never created this kind of entertainment.

http://www.irishnews.com/opinion/columnists/2016/07/20/news/arlene-needs-to-listen-to-martin-mcguinness-on-brexit-610608/?param=ds12rif76F

Steve Ricardos said...

"I wonder how long your Irish identity will last upon a return to the unionist fold in the black north. Everyone is a Paddy abroad. How does that feel? Convenient how yer Irish in Australia, and amusing. "

I was/am still Irish and an Ulsterman when I was back Larry. Must 'fess up to not knowing what being 'British' really means either. The Australians have the Union Jack on their flag and Mrs Windsor as their head of state but NOT ONE Australian would say they are 'British'.

Your seemingly passive/aggressive dictating of people's 'allegiance' on your own terms is telling though.

"The fact that GB would expect Ireland to automatically fall into line in its latest Imperial global campaign of war in 1938 is the amazing thing. After the Irish experience at England hands why was there an automatic sense of obligation? Speaking German would be no more a blip than speaking English. Why would we care if the English got a taste of their own medicine?"

I would have thought that any right minded decent person would have been opposed to the Nazi's, and their conquest in Europe with all that entailed like the Holocaust, no? I get why Eire stayed out of it but fortunately a lot of brave Irishmen saw the threat and fought Fascism anyway, are they traitors Larry?

" And lets face it the Brits have hardly been a peace loving nation either before WW2 nor since, have they?"

Nope, no argument from me on that one.

"Not even going to address post war Stormont baloney and propaganda. The facts about the wee 6 county contribution are there for all to see. Stayed at home and got paid while they loafed about. Wanted to send the RCs to fight in their place. "

Really? I've done a quick google and can find no reference to this?

" Check out Lord Londonderry and his Nazi buddies"

The same Lord Londonderry who was shafted out of Government BECAUSE of cavorting with the enemy? (Though to be fair to him, he did report everything he knew to the British Government about Hitlers intentions at the time.)

Next you will give me some crap about Craig saying a Prod Parliament for a Prod people when he said no such thing.

"As for Peter's article here. If the Chinese had planted 1 million Chinese in Hokaido and those planters were loyal to China and refused to integrate or work with the rest of Japan how long do you think it would take before the Japanese of Hokaido would consider themselves Chinese?"

About as long as it takes as someone with a Welsh surname to become 'Irish' I would imagine.













Steve Ricardos said...

Alas poor Feeney, forever grasping at straws.

Nothing changes without consent as per the GFA AND the lamentable DUP are the fourth largest party in the UK House of Commons. Why would they consent?

"The Good Friday Agreement made the people of Ireland, not parliament, sovereign on the matter of the border. If the people of Ireland, north and south, vote for a united Ireland the British government is obliged by international treaty to legislate for that."

Not without the consent of the wee 6 Brian.

Henry JoY said...

Anyone out west this weekend might like to check out a talk at the Galway International Arts Festival by David Berreby, author of 'Us and Them; Understanding your tribal mind'.

AM said...



Steve Ricardos

At least you address the issues raised. I have no passive-aggressive approach to unionism. I have a dismissive 'give my head peace' approach. Since I can remember at 53 years of age the unionist community in N. East Ireland have been waving the Union Jack in RC - Irish faces at every opportunity. Even using the RUC as often as possible to seal off some small RC village for a weekend or a day to march their bile all over a community that had no desire to suffer them. This is presented as a culture. Hitler had a similar philosophy. As for not knowing what being British means all I can say is it is not my job or obligation to sort out Ulster Unionism's identity crisis 100 years after they divided this country. You make your bed you lay in it. Peter's article was very illuminating in regard to that identity crisis.

You will find that Craig did indeed demand that the War Cabinet extend conscription to the 6 counties during the war in the full knowledge that Protestant males were safely protected in double and treble jobbing opportunities on the 'home-front'. Therefor it was deliberately and cynically anticipated RCs would be sent off to fight while Ulster was defended by the loyal sons back home. You should get the nearest 2 year old to help you with google search Steve there are dozens of links.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055261874

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/guides/zxd8jxs/revision/2

Just two, I deliberately put in the BBC and omitted more nationalistic threads to soothe your sensitivities. You have problems enough already.

AM said...

From Larry Hughes

No one knew of the Holocaust outside of the War Cabinet until after the war. The War Cabinet did little about it during the war. My grandfather was at Dunkirk and D-Day. So I will rest my case on the war effort against Nazism. Stormont had no monopoly on the fight against Nazism, just on the big lie as to its war contribution. Did your granda fight by the way Steve or was he in the LDV or fire brigade? Less than 1000 a month enrolled from the 6 counties and 200 a week were turning up at Clifton Street recruitment office in Belfast from Eire. I am no mathematical genius Steve but if I were a 'loyalist' those figures would cause me to blush if not crawl back under my wee rock. The figures on recruitment levels and who exactly enlisted have been deliberately left vague for post war propaganda purposes. Research will probably be undertaken on this in due course. Dev of course let GB and the Unionist Party off the hook by visiting the German Ambassador after Hitlers suicide. It matters little, we know the reality.

There has been a lot of anglicising of Gaelic Irish names ever since the toxic inglorious involvement of England in this country. That history of involvement is historically little different than that of Hitlers apart from having a much longer trajectory. Regardless of my name or from where it derives, either Anglicised from a Gaelic name or from a Welsh planter, I am Irish. I suffer no confusion or torment on that issue. 'Loyalists/unionists' on the other hand may not know what being British means but in general they are perfectly clear they are NOT Irish. As in 'Irish out' on Prod gable walls in Belfast. Congratulations to you for your progress in some small part at least on the identity issue/crisis.

As for Craigavon and a Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people. He said no such thing? Steve you really do my 'delusional' jibe the power of good.

https://todayinirishhistory.com/tag/protestant-state-for-protestant-people/

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/lord-craigavon-prime-minister-for-all-sides-28572993.html

Touch up on your keyboard technique Steve. There are dozens on that topic also. Maybe specsavers required? Secretarial services free of charge on this occasion only!

As for Peter and Tunisia I was just thinking he should go for a holiday there and bring his old UDR uniform. He could compare notes with ISIS, they have so much in common. UK government created, financed and directed. Tormenting, intimidating and terrorising the local populations. Could be a missed opportunity on his part.

On the footballing 'front' Big Sam's the man. Perhaps if he bans the team from reading the SUN and stops trying to be Italy or Brazil and plays to England's strength, hoof it up to the big fella on the penalty spot, they may win something like Portugal just did. Then again, preferably, most likely, NOT.

larry hughes said...

AM

Thanks for the assistance, i was having trouble posting that. Appreciated.

Steve Ricardos said...

AM

Confused by the first response, is that also from Larry? Will respond tomorrow, late here.

AM said...

Steve,

apologies for that. Both comments at 11.58 posted by me are from Larry. I thought I had put "from Larry Hughes" in the first half of his comment but had failed to do so and had only done it for the second half. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.

Both are his.

He had trouble posting because of length.

larry hughes said...

Steve Ricardos

I look forward to your response honestly hope it has more (some) objectivity to it rather than the delusional soundbites so far. Reminds me of a Protestant friend refusing to accept Harland and Wolff ran at a loss in the 80s and 90s. Simply couldn't accept the reality. All I can say to your inept Google searches to date is......

https://youtu.be/ZHFhDS-uXr4

Aine said...

In my experience working and living in the wee six for over thirty years - the emergence of this 'northern Irish' identity is not a new one. It was mostly middle / upper class ('castle Catholics') that I heard it utilized. I know that for some unionists/ loyalists identity is confusing. To have comfort in one's identity we require historical/ sociological / anthropological FACTS - these cohesive indicators enhance ones feeling of security and consistency.
Subcultures however even if they are ' the rule of law' will always remain in opposition to strong cultural identities such as ' Irish' - we know who we are and where we are from..... Colonisers though not so much . . . Uncomfortable in identity because the identity is a created fallacy.

Steve Ricardos said...

Larry,

"At least you address the issues raised. I have no passive-aggressive approach to unionism. I have a dismissive 'give my head peace' approach. Since I can remember at 53 years of age the unionist community in N. East Ireland have been waving the Union Jack in RC - Irish faces at every opportunity. Even using the RUC as often as possible to seal off some small RC village for a weekend or a day to march their bile all over a community that had no desire to suffer them. This is presented as a culture. Hitler had a similar philosophy."

Fair enough, maybe I took the wrong meaning from what you said, something I know people have done with me. But you are tarring everyone with the same brush when you say "Since I can remember at 53 years of age the unionist community in N. East Ireland have been waving the Union Jack in RC - Irish faces at every opportunity." I know a LOT of 'Unionists' who like me, couldn't give a monkey's about waving flags in anyone's faces. Like I say, I have no time for the OO and sure as hell don't want them marching anywhere they are not wanted.

But the problem is the 'Old Chestnut' of 'whataboutaree'. What the OO and their hangers on will say is 'we have always marched this route-the demographs have changed-it's not us'.

Example would be what is now called 'The Lower Ormeau road' in Belfast. It was never called the 'Lower Ormeau Road' just simply 'Ormeau Road' and one of my parents who was born there still remembers the first RC family moving in. Back then there was not any shite and that family used to watch the parades with my parent, then they went home for tea. Quaint but seems completely surreal in present circumstances. I could not imagine a Protestant family daring to move there now. This is the fear mentality that drives the OO and ALL sectarian organisations. Incidentally, calling the OO sectarian to Unionists is a bit daft, as its a fraternal Protestant organisation. I couldn't be a Protestant in Opus Dei or Columbanus could I? Same thing.

"This is presented as a culture. Hitler had a similar philosophy" That's false equivalence Larry come on.

Steve Ricardos said...

"As for not knowing what being British means all I can say is it is not my job or obligation to sort out Ulster Unionism's identity crisis 100 years after they divided this country. You make your bed you lay in it. Peter's article was very illuminating in regard to that identity crisis."

Then why the hostility when I am happy to recognise my 'Irishness'? Who are you to judge? Is there an Irish Test I need to do to prove it, if so desired? Ulster Unionism suffers no identity crisis I can see, they still hold all the cards. Brexit has changed nothing.

"You will find that Craig did indeed demand that the War Cabinet extend conscription to the 6 counties during the war in the full knowledge that Protestant males were safely protected in double and treble jobbing opportunities on the 'home-front'. Therefor it was deliberately and cynically anticipated RCs would be sent off to fight while Ulster was defended by the loyal sons back home"

And what happened Larry? Conscription never happened. Are you really going to try to be offended at something that didn't happen? One could argue Craig was trying to make NI like the rest of Britain by doing their fair share. Common sense prevailed.

I find it interesting that like so many before you, you quote mine what Craig actually said and the context it was said in.

From Wikipedia-

""Since we took up office we have tried to be absolutely fair towards all the citizens of Northern Ireland. Actually, on an Orange platform, I, myself, laid down the principle, to which I still adhere, that I was Prime Minister not of one section of the community but of all, and that as far as I possibly could I was going to see that fair play was meted out to all classes and creeds without any favour whatever on my part."

George Leeke then retorted: "What about your Protestant Parliament?", to which Craigavon replied: "The hon. Member must remember that in the South they boasted of a Catholic State. They still boast of Southern Ireland being a Catholic State. All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State. It would be rather interesting for historians of the future to compare a Catholic State launched in the South with a Protestant State launched in the North and to see which gets on the better and prospers the more. It is most interesting for me at the moment to watch how they are progressing. I am doing my best always to top the bill and to be ahead of the South."[2]

Not quite the rabid words of a frothing bigot as some like to portray.

Steve Ricardos said...

"Just two, I deliberately put in the BBC and omitted more nationalistic threads to soothe your sensitivities. You have problems enough already."

I have very thick skin Larry, but this comes across as hostile, no?

"
No one knew of the Holocaust outside of the War Cabinet until after the war. The War Cabinet did little about it during the war. My grandfather was at Dunkirk and D-Day. So I will rest my case on the war effort against Nazism. Stormont had no monopoly on the fight against Nazism, just on the big lie as to its war contribution. Did your granda fight by the way Steve or was he in the LDV or fire brigade? Less than 1000 a month enrolled from the 6 counties and 200 a week were turning up at Clifton Street recruitment office in Belfast from Eire. I am no mathematical genius Steve but if I were a 'loyalist' those figures would cause me to blush if not crawl back under my wee rock. The figures on recruitment levels and who exactly enlisted have been deliberately left vague for post war propaganda purposes. Research will probably be undertaken on this in due course. Dev of course let GB and the Unionist Party off the hook by visiting the German Ambassador after Hitlers suicide. It matters little, we know the reality."

One side of my grandparents worked in the shipyard, the other served in the Irish Regiments with a collection of medals knocking about somewhere still. Either way, BOTH contributed to the war effort. If Belfast was not so essential to the effort, why did the Germans bother to bomb the manufacturing areas Larry?

Why DID Dev visit the German Ambassador Larry?

"As for Peter and Tunisia I was just thinking he should go for a holiday there and bring his old UDR uniform. He could compare notes with ISIS, they have so much in common. UK government created, financed and directed. Tormenting, intimidating and terrorising the local populations. Could be a missed opportunity on his part."

Considering how riddled you Provo's were with informers, Peter could say the same about you!

"On the footballing 'front' Big Sam's the man. Perhaps if he bans the team from reading the SUN and stops trying to be Italy or Brazil and plays to England's strength, hoof it up to the big fella on the penalty spot, they may win something like Portugal just did. Then again, preferably, most likely, NOT."

The problem is that the European style of playing means they will soak up the long balls and hit them on the counter. It hasn't worked for some considerable time. The only thing I can think of is that Fat Sam will get some team spirit back. You could see them against Iceland, their heads dropped and they were just plain frightened to play, knowing they would get slaughtered in the press back home. What they need is to start playing with a flat 3 centre backs and two wingers and a defensive midfielder. Back to basics first.

Question for you though Larry, given that a former Provisional you must not have recognised the partitionist government in the Dail? If so, how can you support a partitionist RoI team in soccer?

larry hughes said...

Steve Ricardos

The Orange Order is not a fraternal anything. I know a Protestant whose family suffered/lost heavily in both world wars (must be one of the few) who had an uncle refused entry to the Orange Order on the grounds that he had a cousin married to an RC. They are Fascist Taliban and the fact so many follow them through areas they are not wanted is indicative of a Combat18 type presence in the Unionist community. Granted it has not gathered sufficient traction but then it is competing with UVF/UDA/UDR/RUC. On the demographics sure Palestine is full of Jews now and they call it Israel. Where do you stand on that? Ulster was planted changing the demographics, where exactly do you begin to accept your own behaviour? If unionists don't live there any more stay out of it with the bands and bigots. Or maybe they'd like to pay the residents rates for them?

On the conscription issue again we have duplicity. Craig wanted it as a win win situation. Look good in London and send the taigs to war. You cannot claim credit for the Americans and GB government over-riding the Stormont fascist intentions. Wise up. The reality was on display globally in 1969.

As for the Protestant parliament for a Protestant people I never denied the nature of the paedo priest riddled free state. YOU said Craig never said those words. Never get into the witness box Steve you'll only hang yourself!

All industry was an essential part of the war effort. If you read ANY history book on N. Ireland during the conflict you will see that the War Cabinet was frustrated as hell with 60% productivity and strikes in Ulster industry. Probably why the Germans only bombed it once. There was fuck all major going on there that merited the extra mileage. As for the analogy with Hitler, the LDV based on the B-Specials refused to have a 'Papist' in its ranks. But they wanted RCs at the front.

As for taring people with a broad brush. You should know I have not only never been convicted of Provo membership I have never even been charged or questioned about being a member. But your standard of evidence is consistent with your 'law and order' community. I know of many people who were convicted of offences including murder where evidence wasn't even provided in court. 'Lost' during storage. Or on a verbal statement, people who sat for a week saying nothing only for a 'yeagh i did it you fukn prove it' sentence to be inserted into a week of silence. Good for you Steve THAT just proves you were probably in the RUC!

As for unionists holding all the cards Steve do you really believe that when you admit yourselves RC votes are required to keep the wee 6 in the uk? Slowly slowly catch the monkey. Agh longing for the days of Craig or the 1974 workers strikes huh?

Why Dev went to the German Ambassador is down in my view to his ego. Nothing more. As was the civil war. He was hell bent on being seen as a statesman. He had his 15 minutes of fame at the League of Nations before WW2 came along and it was wrapped up. The Italian invasion of Abyssinia was the straw that broke that camels back. A stupid move on Dev's part, the German Ambassador visit. Insane.

As for Supporting the Republic. I was taken to Windsor Park several times by my ex RAF dad and watched a memorable goal by Sammy McElroy a thumping header to make it N. Ireland 2-ICELAND 0 how's that. But for me UDA songs and fuck the Pope and the IRA was hardly worth the bother even at 12 or 13 years old. Watching Neil Lemon and his pathetic accent wherever he got that, wax lyrical all about N. Ireland on tv during the Euros made my projectile vomit. Perfect material for the SN our wee Lemon. Amazing what being booted unconscious by Rangers fans in Glasgow and an LVF death threat can do to some people.

Anyhow, big Sam the man. Bring England into the real world in 2016. Empire gone and only billions spent on Trident keeps their deluded ego afloat.

larry hughes said...

Big Sams first half time team talk in charge of England.

https://www.facebook.com/www.JOE.co.uk/videos/708189882678414/

frankie said...

"Ulster Unionism suffers no identity crisis I can see, they still hold all the cards. Brexit has changed nothing."

The link reads.....

"And 7,645 votes were cast in the space of 24 hours.

An Overwhelming 73% said the time was right for a poll.

We also asked a second question on what way people would vote.

And 70% said they would vote for a united Ireland.


Tell me again that Brexit changed nothing....or attitudes aren't either...?

Steve Ricardos said...

I'm in the middle of nowhere Australia at the minute for work so will have to properly reply on Monday, Larry.

Enjoy your weekend!

larry hughes said...

Frankie

Oh dear, I expect that will go down like a lead balloon with our law abiding and democracy loving GB ex-pat community in the wee 6.

larry hughes said...

Frankie

On reflection after reading that link, in the Belfast Telegraph no less! it occurs to me that on a personal level, and this may just be fatigue on my part, but republicans and 1916 Societies shouting for 1 Ireland 1 Vote and using republican standard issue rhetoric and phraseology is simply a turn off. People just stop reading the stuff. However, depending where this poll was carried out, and that is a big issue, there may be more of an appetite for a poll at large than we realise. As I say, there would be different results in different locations. I expect the Shankill Rd would hardly be the location for this poll. But, all slagging and debate aside, (which I thoroughly enjoy) when you have Peter and Steve on here prepared to say a peaceful progression to a united Ireland if that were to happen would be 'tolerable' and violence in response limited to a few nutters it augers well for the island as a whole regardless of any poll. My wee 5 month old son Pablo (5 calendar months today)has a peaceful and happy future in store it would seem.

Steve Ricardos said...

Larry,

"The Orange Order is not a fraternal anything. I know a Protestant whose family suffered/lost heavily in both world wars (must be one of the few) who had an uncle refused entry to the Orange Order on the grounds that he had a cousin married to an RC."

No idea about that but I have a family member in the Orange and, shock horror, his granny's a Catholic. No issue. Still, the OO are not my cup of tea. I wouldn't want to be in a club that would have me as a member anyway.

"On the demographics sure Palestine is full of Jews now and they call it Israel. Where do you stand on that?"

Got f*ck all to do with me, but I think the Palestinians have been shat upon by everyone. Israel are complete ba*tards who think nothing of lying to the goyem to achieve their dreams of 'greater Israel'. Remove them from the picture and the Sunni's and Shia's will be back to knocking seven bells of sh*te out of each other in no time. F*ck religion.

" Ulster was planted changing the demographics, where exactly do you begin to accept your own behaviour?"

Why on earth would I feel responsible for something that happened hundreds of years ago?

"If unionists don't live there any more stay out of it with the bands and bigots. Or maybe they'd like to pay the residents rates for them?"

Couldn't agree more!

"As for taring people with a broad brush. You should know I have not only never been convicted of Provo membership I have never even been charged or questioned about being a member. But your standard of evidence is consistent with your 'law and order' community"

My bad, I thought you said in an earlier post you were. Law and order community? What?

" I know of many people who were convicted of offences including murder where evidence wasn't even provided in court. 'Lost' during storage. Or on a verbal statement, people who sat for a week saying nothing only for a 'yeagh i did it you fukn prove it' sentence to be inserted into a week of silence. Good for you Steve THAT just proves you were probably in the RUC! "

I could well believe the cops fitted people up Larry, but I have never been a cop!

"As for unionists holding all the cards Steve do you really believe that when you admit yourselves RC votes are required to keep the wee 6 in the uk? Slowly slowly catch the monkey. Agh longing for the days of Craig or the 1974 workers strikes huh?"

Why the feck would I want to go back to the dark past? Yep, RC votes are required to keep the wee 6 in the Union. They won't vote to leave it. The Tele poll was probably taken outside Connolly house!

But regardless, all of our pasts are imperfect. Each of us can look back with 20/20 hindsight and all that happens is EXACTLY what you and I have both vented. Opinion based 'whataboutaree'. Solves nothing.

"As for Supporting the Republic. I was taken to Windsor Park several times by my ex RAF dad and watched a memorable goal by Sammy McElroy a thumping header to make it N. Ireland 2-ICELAND 0 how's that. But for me UDA songs and fuck the Pope and the IRA was hardly worth the bother even at 12 or 13 years old. Watching Neil Lemon and his pathetic accent wherever he got that, wax lyrical all about N. Ireland on tv during the Euros made my projectile vomit. Perfect material for the SN our wee Lemon. Amazing what being booted unconscious by Rangers fans in Glasgow and an LVF death threat can do to some people"

I hate the sectarian sh*te too but to be fair it is a LOT less than it used to be. Heard worse from Sellick fans these days.

Frankie, there is no issue whatsoever from me regarding a UI as long as it's peaceful. I suspect even the few nutters would be quickly quelled by their own too. There's no firebrand bigot like Paisley stirring the pot and the young are mixing across the divide in far greater numbers than when I was a boy so I can't really see the violence starting again on a large scale.



















larry hughes said...

Steve Ricardos

Cannot argue with too much with your response there. I also agree with your assessment the poll was conducted 'outside' Connolly House because had it been conducted inside the result would have been very different indeed. Adams and his wee cult are no longer pushing for a united Ireland but a 'new shared future'. That sounds to me like the cult has settled into their useless little careers and are enjoying the benefits. Status Quo will be the band at the next SF Ard Fheis. The fat lady has not only cleared her throat she has sung the encore as far as that wee gang are concerned. And frankly my dear ... no one gives a damn!!