Radio Ulster
1 April 2016
WC: Stephen Martin, Assistant Chief Constable
(ACC) Stephen Martin has joined me in the Talkback studio. He is the man, the police
officer, who has overall command of policy and policing around all parades
across Northern Ireland and as I say, there have been some very serious moments
this week for the police: Claims of two-tier policing - it comes after the use
of CS spray by a police officer during a Junior Orange Order parade on the Ormeau Road in Belfast on Tuesday. You'll remember
yesterday the First Minister, Arlene Foster, said she did not believe there was
two-tier policing going on here but said that the police need to get to the
bottom of the issues that are causing concern. ACC Martin, welcome! Good
Afternoon to you.
SM: Thank you for having me.
WC: How concerned are you about the current state
of the relationship between the police and Loyalist and Unionist
communities?
SM: Well obviously the sort of commentary we've
seen in the last few days played out in both the mainstream media and political
circles and in social media is of concern to us. Police services such as ours
thrive on consent and civic consent of the population that it polices and
whenever we receive criticism on the scale that we have had of course it's
concerning to us. Yes.
WC: When the First Minister, Arlene Foster,
requested a meeting with the Chief Constable around some of those issues – was
that helpful for her to do that or did that stoke the sense that is out there
amongst some people that there is actually two-tier policing going on?
SM: Well let me say at the outset there is no
two-tier policing. In your introductory remarks you quite properly highlighted
that I am what we refer to as the 'Goal Commander' but that means the overall
police commander for parades in Northern Ireland. I've held that for about
eighteen months now – so all of last year's parade season - bonfires, flags and
indeed the commemorations that we've seen this year.
WC: (quips) So one of the easiest jobs in
policing here.
SM: A difficult and challenging job...
WC: ...Yeah, I would imagine, yeah...
SM:
...absolutely – but a great professional responsibility at the same time. So
the policing of the parades that we've seen in last week – so for example -
Coalisland, Ardoyne, Derry on Easter Monday - that's down to me. I made those
calls. I'm quite happy to have conversation with you today to outline the
context and the circumstances which I faced and why I made my decisions.
WC: Well, let's talk about that. The policy...
SM: ...Well I want to say at the outset...
WC: ...Go ahead.
SM: ...that there is no two-tier policing. I
apply the same consistent thinking and approach to all parades whether they
come from the Republican part of our community or the Loyalist part of our
community.
WC: Did you start out during this season of
commemorations around 1916 with a policy decision about how you would police
those commemorations even if there were people wearing masks and uniforms
involved in them?
SM: Yeah, well I have set an overall strategy for
the year and that is a reasonably substantial document that goes into some
detail about the type of policing that I want for the year. The parades that
mark the commemorations – I think we should say that between Good Friday and
Easter Tuesday there were in excess of a hundred and forty separate events
occurred across Northern Ireland – the vast majority of which were notified to
the Parades Commission. The overwhelming majority of those passed off
peacefully, lawfully, in the spirit of historical commemoration and were
enjoyed by those who took part. There were a few parades that unfortunately
caught the public eye. If we talk about Coalisland, that was a very topical one, that actually was a lawfully notified
parade. So the organisers went to the Parades Commission, submitted their
eleven bar one and got approval for that parade in Coalisland. There was a
determination issued. The determination, amongst other things, said there
should be no paramilitary dress. So I was left with a situation expecting
there'd to be paramilitary dress and how would I deal with that. So the offence
there is actually a breach of Parades Commission determination. There is no
offence of looking like a paramilitary. There are offences under the Terrorism
Act about showing support for proscribed organisations. To get a matter through
the court to prove to the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt
we would need to be able to demonstrate a clear link between those people and a
proscribed organisation. Various stated cases and court experiences have shown
us that actually what you need is the name of the proscribed organisation on
the uniforms. That was not the case in Coalisland.
WC: So you didn't regard these individuals as 'terrorists'
parading on the streets of Coalisland as some people are alleging in text
messages to us?
SM: Well what I am saying is that the offences
under the Terrorism Act would be showing support for a proscribed
organisation...
WC: ...And that evidence wasn't there...
SM: ...and you have to prove that beyond a
reasonable doubt. It's a high threshold to meet in the court and our experience
and stated cases have shown that there needs to be a very clear link between
that uniform and a proscribed organisation...
WC: ...Nevertheless they...
SM: ...that would typically be the name of the
organisation...
WC: ...Sure. But even without that they were in
breach of the parade determinations...
SM: Well yes...
WC: ...The directions - they were in breach of
that. Why did your officers not move in?
SM: Well what we're left with there then is a
potential breach of a Parades Commission determination. That is a summary
offence dealt with only in the Magistrates' Court – absolute maximum sentence
would be six months imprisonment but all experience shows much more likely if
you get them into court will be a fine. So it is a more minor offence in terms
of the law. I accept it's distasteful. It's offensive to many people. Many
people regard it as ugly scenes but in terms of the actual breach of the
criminal law it is a summary offence.
So then I look at context. Context is
everything in the law. Was it near an interface area? Was it near an area where
it wouldn't be appreciated or it would be opposed? Had I lawfully notified
protests? And the answer to all those questions was no. It was in a Republican
area. It was lawfully notified. And I had the opportunity to record evidence
and follow-up afterwards. There's plenty of precedent for that. There are many
occasions when Loyal Order parades, for example, breach determinations –
normally by playing music where they shouldn't play – so, for example, past
Saint Matthew's or past Saint Patrick's - and I made the decision not to
intervene there because I recognised that by intervening the risk of disorder
and the events that could unfold are disproportionate compared to the benefit I
would have accrued by intervening.
But let me say I do intervene at times. So
for example, the Anti-Internment
Parade last August – it was my call to stop
that parade on the Oldpark Road/Rosapenna Street junction because I believed
that the context there was such that if I didn't intervene that the risk of
disorder and violence, if it was allowed to progress towards the city centre,
was of such a scale that actually the positive thing to do to protect human
rights was to stop that unlawful parade. I intervened in Loyal Order parades
most noticeably in the Woodvale Road on the return parade on the Twelfth of July. So I could sit here
and give you many examples where we made the decision, or I made the decision,
to intervene because it's the right thing to do. But I can give you many
examples where I don't. I record evidence and I follow-up afterwards.
WC: Alright. Now let me take you to the Ormeau
Road – and we know what the police are saying about the Ormeau Road – this
wasn't a policy decision. The police had
to respond to an incident as it occurred in that situation and they made a
decision, that is now being reviewed by the Police Ombudsman, we know all that.
It's the perception, ACC Martin, it's the perception of it. It's the perception
that masked men wearing paramilitary uniforms are allowed to march merrily
through one area without any challenge by the police whilst Junior Orangemen on
a parade are sprayed, that's the claim – I'm not saying that happened but
that's the claim – are sprayed with CS gas, as some people have said – but it's
CS spray - it's a liquid medium, it's not gas, but that's a differential
approach to policing. That is the claim and that looks to many Loyalists like
you approach their community differently.
SM: Well I want to say I don't approach their
community differently. I want to hear the views of their community. I engage
with many politicians on a regular basis. I have been, myself, to meet the
Loyalist Community Council and to talk about issues relating to the policing of
Loyalist working class areas. So I'm in listening mode when it comes to
policing Loyalist areas. What we had in the parades in Coalisland and Derry –
and I've taken some time to try and explain my thinking around the Coalisland
parade – was actually where the police did take positive steps to gather
evidence. We had several hundred police officers on duty in and around
Coalisland on Sunday. We have lots of footage. We have the helicopter footage,
we have hand-held footage from our officers on the ground, we've been trawling
through social media footage and YouTube and we will be carrying out a very
thorough follow-up to try and bring matters before the court in relation to
suspected breaches of determination.
In relation to the Ormeau Road: That parade
– there was no sense of any police pre-event deciding to intervene in that
parade. In fact, we had only two police officers there whose job it was to
facilitate the parade down the road at that point in time. We didn't anticipate
any difficulty. We didn't want any difficulty. That parade in recent years has
been very successful. But what occurred: A situation developed where a police
officer believed that criminal damage was likely to occur and stepped in,
dynamically, to try and prevent that. The police officer will obviously say
that he was then subjected to violence and the threat of violence and took
measures to protect themselves. Now I also understand that there will be
another narrative out there – another story, another version of events from the
band and from members of the Loyalist community so the proper place for this to
be ventilated and investigated is with the Police Ombudsman and I believe
that's where it should be.
WC: Meanwhile, it's become a political debate.
You've a DUP (Democratic Unionist Party) Councillor from Ballymena quoted in
the newspapers yesterday using social media to describe PSNI officers in that
incident as 'boot boys' and even re-posting the image of the officer. A politician doing
that!
SM: Yes. Well I think that is irresponsible.
Police officers go out every day to protect this community. I have the job, as
we've said, for policing parades. I can tell you that I police those in an
impartial, consistent way. Yes, I have to make different decisions based on
different contexts. Unfortunately we're a divided society where often it comes
down that if I'm celebrating – you will condemn - and vice-versa. These are
difficult decisions. I think the posting of the police officer's details on
social media in Northern Ireland is reckless. It's dangerous. You asked earlier
around the intervention of the First Minister. I think the First Minister's
intervention has been helpful. I think it's quite appropriate for senior
ministers to take an interest and to ask questions about policing. It's
inappropriate, ever, to try and interfere with the operational independence of
the Chief Constable. I don't believe that that line has been, in any way,
approached. I think it has been, by and large, reasonably responsible for
politicians but the example you gave was irresponsible.
WC: Do you believe that some politicians are
using that incident for electoral purposes ahead of the Assembly elections?
SM: Well I don't think it would be helpful. I
believe that we're at the start of a parade season and my job here today is to
try and explain and give assurance to people that there's no two-tier
approached to policing of these parades. It is the one person, me, who decides on
the overall strategy. On the more controversial parades it's me who chairs the
meetings. It's me who approves the tactics by the commanders on the ground and
I am consistent and impartial. I don't think it would help me in trying to
reduce the tension to start making comments around the election – I'll leave
that for others. My job is to try and keep people safe, to try and reduce
tension. We've a long parade season ahead of us. We have more commemorations to
come. We've some difficult parades to come and my appeal is that people leave
the Ormeau Road incident to the Police Ombudsman. We obviously very much regret
that young children were affected by the effects of CS spray – that was never
the intention. CS spray is used to protect officers who are subject to violence
or the threat of violence. That is our view on why it was used but the
Ombudsman will make a determination.
WC: Do you still believe it was appropriate to
use it in that case? In that incident?
SM: You know, if the officers apprehended that
they were fearing for their own safety then it would be appropriate. It was an
open-air set of circumstances. Young children appeared to have been affected
and we really regret that. And we are a learning organisation. We look forward
to cooperating with the Police Ombudsman's investigation. We'll see what that
brings forward and if it brings forward lessons for us to learn I can assure
you we will learn those.
WC: The initial response from the police seems to
suggest that young people, children, were not affected by the CS spray.
SM: Well I don't think we're in a position here
to dispute that children seemed to have been affected by the effects of CS
spray...
WC: ...But that's a change in position by the
police – is it?
SM: Well we're of a view that the CS spray was
directed to adults who were at that stage, the officer will say, engaging in
violence towards him.
WC: So you seem to be moving to the position now
that the spray may have contaminated the atmosphere, or something like that, and
that might have been the indirect means by which some children were affected by
it.
SM: Well I think that seems to be the case that
the children would have been affected in a secondary way as opposed to have
been targeted deliberately by the officers themselves.
WC: The other incident this week that has been
used by some people making this argument for two-tier policing was the
photograph that appeared again on social media, it was widely circulated, of a
police officer in West Belfast who appeared to have his foot on the bottom rung
of a ladder – in some of the photographs I've seen he doesn't have his foot on
the ladder but it may be that there are other photographs where he does - with
someone at the other end of the ladder putting an Irish tricolour onto a pub. Now we know what the police are saying – it was a
health and safety concern by the police officer. He was concerned that the
ladder was insecure – the person could have been injured. Would you accept in
terms of the PR around all of this that that was a disaster for the police?
SM: Well I accept that people have different views.
I don't ...
WC: ...How did you feel when you saw that image?
SM: Well look, I asked questions about it because
I immediately realised that it would be open to interpretation and that it
would probably receive some complaint. The officer was on fixed point that day
- it was a pub near the Milltown Cemetery. A man came out to adjust a flag on
private property. It was not, in any sense, an unlawful flag. And the police
officer watching him doing it noticed the blustery conditions, noticed that he
was up the ladder, thought it was precarious and steadied the ladder. And you
know if they were putting up an Ulster flag or a Union flag in the Newtownards
Road and an officer saw the same stuff I would expect the officer to do the
same thing. If it was a proscribed organisation flag I would be expecting the
officer to be intervening and interviewing the person under caution for
offences. But it wasn't. It was an Irish national flag as I understand and that
is not unlawful. The context: being flown on a pub in the Milltown Road area is
not a breach of the criminal law in any way...
WC: ...Well what do you say to those? You say:
Well there you have it – there's a cop helping people put up the Irish flag.
SM: Well my view is he wasn't helping him put it.
He was actually trying to ensure that he didn't fall off the ladder and I would
expect him to the same thing if that was in a Protestant/Loyalist area.
WC: Well you see how it all adds up in the minds
of some people. You may consider it a conspiracy theory – this two-tier
policing - but here's a police officer
with his foot on the rung of a ladder and the Irish flag's going up - here's a
Junior Orange Parade where CS spray is deployed – and here are masked men
wearing paramilitary-style uniforms who merrily walk through a Republican area
without any challenge. What does that look like to a Loyalist?
SM: Well look I'm not suggesting there's a
conspiracy theory. I think we have a coming together of a variety of events and
when you bring them all together means it's been a difficult and challenging
week. The masked men marching through parades: I just ask people to think about
that. If we were intervening – so Lurgan, for example, last Saturday – that was
an unnotified parade. So again, even though they were dressed the way they were
dressed - and we have footage and we'll be examining those - but at this moment
in time we don't think it meets the threshold for showing support for a
terrorist organisation because it doesn't name the organisation and the flags don't
meet that either.
WC: And not even the connection with a 1916
commemoration does that? That doesn't get you across the line?
SM: No. No. No, absolutely not. So even though
that looks ugly – and I 'get' that looks ugly – it looked ugly to me - there is
no offence of dressing like a paramilitary. The offences are either under the
Terrorism Act or breaches of determinations for taking part in an unnotified
parade. So last Saturday in Lurgan – that was a breach of an unnotified parade.
Now I've mentioned context is everything. We have gathered evidence but if we
had went in to stop that parade it would be foreseeable that violence would
have occurred. And if it is foreseeable then I have to satisfy myself that it
is both necessary and proportional. And when you're dealing with summary
offences – and I know that there's a greater likelihood that if we intervene
the police will end up using force, that the likelihood of people getting hurt
is increased, that the likelihood of police being subjected to violence is
increased - then the appropriate thing to do – not just by my own decision
making – but the appropriate thing to do in law, I would submit, is to record
the evidence and follow-up afterwards. And I would also say this to people: If
I was a dissident, if I was organising these parades, if I was trying to
destabilise society, if I was trying to shatter the peace that we have fought
so long and hard as a society and yearned for what would I want the police to
do under those circumstances? I'll tell you what I would want: I would want the
police to ride in there, gung-ho and bring out the shields and bring out the
batons and confront those people and to create merry hell in that community.
That's what I would want the police to do.
Well I am not in the business of handing
victories to dissident groups. I am in the business of policing them; policing
them firmly. Maghaberry is full of people on remand or serving sentences for
terrorist offences that have occurred post-1998. There is nobody, nobody who
will take greater delight in actually catching dissident people from these
groups when they're out trying to murder or trying to carry out the offences
but we have to do it sensibly and within the law. And I don't believe – I
honestly don't believe - and I want your listeners to get it - I honestly don't
believe that it would have been the right thing to do for the police to go into
Lurgan last week in the full knowledge that that's exactly what they would have
wanted and actually it was neither necessary or proportionate in the
circumstances.
WC: Do you think it's unusual in a place like
Northern Ireland that it is lawful to march in paramilitary-style uniform,
wearing masks, behind flags in public? Do you think that's unusual?
SM: Well I don't know the ins and outs of the
legislative framework...
WC: ...I know you're not a legislator - you don't
make the law...
SM: ...In other countries but there's...
WC: Many people are texting saying it seems
bizarre.
SM: Well there's no offense of wearing a mask in
public.
WC: What is the morale like within the police at
the minute?
SM: Well you know that there was a Federation survey last Autumn that suggested morale was in a difficult place. We have
been working with the Federation since then to try and listen...
WC: ...And after this week? How are officers
feeling this week?
SM: Well I think circumstances – you know, nobody
likes to be the subject of public discourse. Nobody likes to be the subject of
news bulletins and current affairs programmes and people ringing in and criticising
you. The men and women I have the privilege of leading – I'm responsible for
all local policing, all neighbourhood policing, day-to-day policing. The men
and women I have the privilege of leading come into work every day to try to
help people. I spoke to one of my officers who was injured last weekend – a
lady with two children who was injured - hit in the head with
a brick in the village of Crumlin - five
staples to her head. A mother, a woman who puts on a uniform, comes into work
every day to try and help people. And of course we don't like to be the subject
of all this negativity and criticism but we're a police service – we are a
police service in a difficult society. A society that has still many roads to
travel in terms of healing and we accept that that is our lot and we are
undeterred in terms of policing. Policing is a very noble endeavour. It's an
inexact science. At times we will get things wrong. At times we will make
misjudgments. But I honestly believe we get far, far more right in the
interests of this society than we get wrong.
WC: Some of our listeners are texting to say that
your comments about the strategy, the policy of not moving in officers because
of your fear that it would turn into a riot situation essentially hands over
authority on that road to mob rule. It's rewarding the threat of violence,
again, in this society. That's what they're saying.
SM: Well I can understand why they say that but
then why did I make the decision to stop a thousand Republicans in a Republican
area last year when it was foreseeable that I would have had disorder? And I
did have disorder and we had to deploy water cannon.
WC: Why did you?
SM: Because I believed in the context at the time
it was an unlawful parade. It was clearly going to be in breach from the moment
it started of the Parades Commission determination. I believed that was a
substantive, substantial breach. There was substantial protest activity in the
city centre. I believed that the further it got towards city centre the risk of
tension, the risk of disorder, the risk of violence was such that it was
necessary. It was proportional...
WC: ...So if enough Loyalists had come out to
protest in Lurgan against that parade you might have intervened? The context
was different?
SM: Well I police according to the context. The
last thing I want to do is invite people to come out and protest. You know I
think that is exceptionally unhelpful.
WC: Yeah, but as a policy decision we're saying
if there is a large protest it changes the context and it might end up with a
different decision to intervene and break up the parade.
SM: Well I think many things can affect the
context: The area the involved – whether it's near an interface area – the
support for it – the size of the parade – the types of offences that are likely
to be broken – the history – the protest activity - the intelligence background
- there is a whole range of things that affect my decision making but I want to
reassure people - as difficult as sometimes images may seem, as difficult as
sometimes it might be to get yourself into the position: Well why did he do
that or why didn't he do that? I want to really reassure people – I work within
the legal framework. I think about the context very carefully and I can assure
you that I approach every set of circumstances with the same open mind and the
same level of consistency.
WC: I hear what you're saying that different
policing strategies in different areas don't add up to differential policing in
a political sense. And that's the case with policing around the world. But you
do have this PR problem. You do have an image problems within Loyalism and some
parts of Unionism. What are you going to do to address those who have joined
the dots in your judgment wrongly and have concluded that there is two-tier
policing - that you don't respect one community as you do another community.
SM: Well look I did a Spotlight programme about a
month ago and I was being accused of the very opposite thing. I was being
accused of being soft on Loyalism. Today I'm being accused of being harsh on
Loyalism. The context drives the sets of circumstances – that was in relation
to not removing flags in the Clandeboye Estate in Bangor – again, flags falls
within my area of responsibility - a very difficult, challenging set of
circumstances. The context is everything in the law but my strategy - we don't
have competing strategies we have the one strategy – and that's for the whole
of Northern Ireland.
WC: But the tactics may be different.
SM: But the tactics can be different to deliver
on that strategy. And I don't want get too complicated about that...
WC: ...No, I understand that. You know what? I
think it's very helpful when you give us a little bit of your thinking on this
so that people can see how you came to the decisions you came to. We don't
often get that. And it may be helpful for people making their own mind up about
what happened. But even if they do make their mind up about what happened you
still have a problem in community policing, don't you? And you can acknowledge
that - within Loyalism, within some sections of Unionism you have a problem
now.
SM: Well I think the last few days have been
unhelpful and I want to do what I can to take the tensions away.
WC: So what are you going to do to change that
perception?
SM: Well first of all, obviously, coming on here
and talking to you is a deliberate attempt to try and start and explain the
circumstances around my decision making in Lurgan and Coalisland and Ardoyne
and up in Doire on Easter Monday. My colleagues, some of my commanders from
Belfast, are, as we speak, meeting Councillors in the City Hall. There are
further meetings with other community representatives today. We are in
listening mode. It does not assist us in any way to be in a form of unhelpful,
unnecessary tension with any section of the community. We are a divided
society. You know, the divisions are still clear. There are more peace walls
now than there were in 1998. We are still very much in transition – we haven't
transitioned. So the police service in the middle of that are, at times, going
to fall foul of, as you call it, PR issues within one community or the other.
WC: And it's part of it – it's part of the game,
isn't it?
SM: Well it comes with the territory. I certainly
wouldn't see it as a game but it comes with the territory and it is my job to
do what I can while still maintaining the rule of law, while still keeping
people safe, doing our duty, doing our job, what we're mandated under
legislation to do but to try and think about the 'how' of policing. We do talk
about the what and how. The what can be very clear in certain circumstances.
The how you go about it is actually the much more challenging role. I've said
that I have been to see the Loyalist Community Council. You know, I'm very
happy to go back to that group to address these issues and discuss them and to
think about things like flags. And we're coming into the parade season - flags
are going to start going up again - we're going to have those issues - we're
going to have issues with bonfires – we know that as we sit here and those
things can create tensions.
WC: And I suspect that you're particularly
concerned, I'm not putting words in your mouth, but you're particularly
concerned about the next few weeks – the next five weeks – leading up to an
Assembly election. If Mark Lindsay of the Police Federation is correct that
some politicians are using all of this as a political
football for electoral purposes you may share his concern that we
could have a difficult few weeks ahead for the police.
SM: Well Mark Lindsay's made his comments and I'm
sure they've landed with politicians. I don't think I need to build upon those.
My job is to encourage politicians. I want the support of politicians for local
policing. I'm not coming on here to criticise or condemn them. They have a
difficult job to do as well – to represent the interests of their constituents
but people need to own their words. I need to own the words that I am using in
this interview today while others needs to own their words. I think the example
you gave earlier on that I referred to as being irresponsible was highly
inappropriate. And Northern Ireland has shown that words can often lead to
actions and those actions can be violent and I think putting a police officer's
personal details on social media was reckless in the extreme and potentially
very dangerous. Obviously we're stepping in now as an organisation to support
our colleague and to support his family but that was really unnecessary and
extremely unhelpful and it should not and must not happen again.
WC: Thank you very much, Assistant Chief
Constable Stephen Martin.
Parading should be a national sport in Ireland. You don't like something? Have a parade! You want to remember a battle from hundreds of years ago? Have a parade! Want to remember a quasi-mythical 'Saint'? Not a problem, have a PARADE!
ReplyDeleteIn my considerable travels around the globe I have yet to encounter so much bollocks dressed up in matching attire, 'commemorating' things or people long since dead, than in the NI.
Two tier policing? What's that, a wedding cake for the boys in blue? If you want to walk around acting like a cunt you will be treated like a one, INCLUDING the police. The cops should expect to cop shit if they are being arseholes too.
Honest to fuck, people walk about looking to be offended back there.