WBAI 99.5FM Pacifica Radio
New York City
28 March 2015
SB: And now we have made contact
with Ed Moloney, the author of Voices From the Grave and A Secret
History of the IRA, and Ed blogs on The
Broken Elbow. Ed, thanks very much for being with us.
EM: My pleasure, Sandy.
EM: Well, you know when the
Good Friday Agreement was negotiated and a few years later the deal finally
implemented, there was a belief that two things would happen: 1) is that while
there wouldn't be an officially announced amnesty, the police and the
authorities on the British side would close the books on The Troubles as it
were – leave that all behind - and reach out to the future with a sort of clean
slate.
But if the PSNI, as they say as they intend to do or the police in Britain intend to, pursue these people and try to put them in goal - I think that's going to produce a situation which cannot be ignored by the Sinn Féin leadership. Of course, I know they have their eyes very firmly set on winning this election in the South and that's all they really care about but at the same time they daren't risk the peace process falling to pieces in The North while this is happening - and I think that's the danger here – see, what it does, realistically, is that it tends to strengthen the arguments of the “dissidents” within Republicanism which is: that the peace process is not what it says that it should be or could be or will be – that it's something entirely different – that it represents a defeat. And not only that, but you can never trust the British and you can never have an agreement with them that they won't renege on.
SB: And Ed, the war in The
North is supposed to be over but it seems the British government doesn't think
so - they are continuing to prosecute and potentially lock up former members of
the IRA - even those who had an explicit agreement from the same British government
that they would never be prosecuted. So what's going on?
And
secondly: As part of the secret negotiations that took place between the Sinn
Féin leadership, the Provo leadership, and the Blair government: A number of
letters were issued to people who were On-the-Run, in other words who were
wanted for certain offences and could risk being arrested and put on trial if
they ever came back to Northern Ireland or to Britain, and these letters more
or less guaranteed that these people would no longer be sought. In other words,
that was sort of an official, agreed amnesty and it became part of the Good
Friday Agreement accords and the whole peace agreement. And I think Blair and
his people have said on several different occasion that without it it would
have been much more difficult for Gerry Adams to have delivered the peace
process because you know - what worth is the peace process if the British are
still going to lock up your activists? You know, it doesn't look like a
negotiated peace at all. It looks like a victory - a military defeat.
And
that's the way it stood until the Cameron government came into power. Now the
Cameron – it's very important to understand the influence of neoconservatives
on Cameron and his administration – there are a number of his senior ministers
- his Chancellor, the Exchequer, George what's his name who – I forget his
surname now – and also Michael Gove, who was Minister of Education and various
other - George Osborn is the name of the Chancellor - and various other
ministers and MPs are all signed-up members of the neoconservative wing of the
Tory Party. And the think tank which has the greatest influence on conservative
policy, an outfit called Policy Exchange,
is headed by Dean Godson whose brother worked as a neo-con adviser to the Bush
administration and is himself a neoconservative.
Their
view of the peace process is that they were entirely hostile to it – their
analysis of it was that cockamamie analysis and it was: That this was all a big
trick by Gerry Adams to get the IRA back into a war situation strengthened by
the various concessions that they had wrought from the British - it was
absolute nonsense and based upon testimony from one former IRA member (whose
name now escapes me) but he was their sort of “pet” IRA person who fed these
fantasies - and that's all now being translated into action which I think,
myself, runs entirely contrary both to the letter and the spirit of the peace
process.
First
of all, these letters to the On-the-Runs have been torn up and the police are
making it very clear – the PSNI are making it very clear that they're going to
pursue these people and pursue other people and try to put them behind bars.
And
why I say this is a return to the war is that: If you examine how the conflict
was fought between the British and the IRA – I mean, clearly the IRA went out
to kill as many British targets as they could and to blow up commercial
targets, etc etc - now obviously they killed an awful lot of civilians in the
process - but that was their stated methodology of fighting the war.
The
British response was two-fold: Party it was taking out and killing IRA members
themselves but primarily and mainly and mostly it was an attempt to put people
into goal – put them behind bars – put them on trial - convict them and throw
them in goal for a number of years. And that was how they fought the war.
Well,
the IRA has ended its war – it no longer bombs, it no longer shoots, it's given
up all its weaponry and most of its structures - IRA structures - have been
dismantled. But the British? There they are - they're trying to put people back
in goal – not only people arrested under the Boston College business but also
people who were On-the-Run and every week it seems that there's some eighty
year old or seventy year old arrested and charged with this that and the other.
It seems as if it's going to continue under Cameron and - to my mind - it is a
breech of the peace process – both the spirit and the letter - it is a return
to war by the British - because this is how they fought the war – it's not
being reciprocated by the IRA. And the strangest thing of all is that seems to
be tolerated by Sinn Féin because they're not saying a word in protest yet
everyone can see there is something really radically wrong. Even Niall O'Dowd's
organ this week carried a story from Eamon
Delaney , a former Irish diplomat, pointing out that this was something that
could really undermine the peace process so - everyone
else is saying this is wrong or most people are who are following the situation
- except Sinn Féin – they're saying nothing at all - which is really strange.
SB: But Ed, why is that? You
have the British government essentially tearing up key parts of the peace
agreement and Sinn Féin doesn't say a mumbling word.
EM: Well, I can't peer into
the minds of Messers Adams and McGuinness but let's look at the track record,
for example: When Gerry Adams was arrested in May last year on the basis of
Jean McConville's allegations against him his comrades outside - while he was
languishing in a police cell – his comrades outside were jumping up and down -
hopping with anger and Martin McGuinness was talking about dark elements still
in the PSNI – which is entirely true, of course! I mean, we know that. The
whole reason for the whole Boston College business is because of ex-Special
Branch people who are now back into the PSNI who want revenge on Adams &
Company.
And
it was clear from the behaviour and response of people outside Antrim Police
cell that they were extremely angry at this and saw it as a betrayal of the
peace process. And what does Adams do when he comes out? He slaps McGuinness
down – no more talk of renegade or dark elements etc in the police force,
please - and was quite happy to make no fuss at all - to make no political
point relating to his arrest which is: Here I am - the guy who was the
principle architect for this peace process - without whom there would not now
be peace in Northern Ireland and between Britain and Ireland and yet here they
are trying to throw me in goal - what does this say about the peace process?
And I think that really is the fundamental weakness of the whole business and I
think that's why Sinn Féin is staying quiet - because this really does
demonstrate that this really wasn't – or at least it's open to the
interpretation – that this wasn't an equal peace process. It was, in fact, a victory
of one side over the other and no one in their leadership can admit that.
JM: And Ed, this is the
difference between winning and losing: When Mandela gets out and the ANC
members can come back – they're not being arrested and charged for things that
happened years ago and Ed, it is so humiliating! I'm going to read a statement
that was made in the House of Commons on Wednesday by Loyalist politician, Mr
Dodds. Mr. Dodds asks: Would the Prime Minister now list in the Library of
House all those other Sinn Féin members and leading Republicans who have
likewise received a Royal Parson so that Republicans in Northern Ireland can
know which of their stalwart leaders have either begged or asked or probably on
bended knee such a Royal Pardon and secondly, so that everyone can know – in
the country which governments have been involved in such nefarious activities.
Now even the thought of asking the Queen of England for a Royal Pardon – I mean
we're talking about what happened in 1916 and 1921 - you could almost say they
might be asking now for a Royal Pardon. So now you have to ask Republicans in
The Six Counties – they have to go to the Queen of England to get a Royal
Pardon!
EM: Well, indeed and I
understand that Gerry Kelly has since announced that he was on the receiving
end of a Royal Pardon although that preceded – I think that happened before the
peace process. But there's an awful lot about the process that remains secret
and will probably remain secret forever and we will probably never get to the bottom
of all of these stories.
But if the PSNI, as they say as they intend to do or the police in Britain intend to, pursue these people and try to put them in goal - I think that's going to produce a situation which cannot be ignored by the Sinn Féin leadership. Of course, I know they have their eyes very firmly set on winning this election in the South and that's all they really care about but at the same time they daren't risk the peace process falling to pieces in The North while this is happening - and I think that's the danger here – see, what it does, realistically, is that it tends to strengthen the arguments of the “dissidents” within Republicanism which is: that the peace process is not what it says that it should be or could be or will be – that it's something entirely different – that it represents a defeat. And not only that, but you can never trust the British and you can never have an agreement with them that they won't renege on.
And
they've reneged on this one – I mean this is a “big reneging”. Blair, the Prime
Minister of Britain, gave the Provos his word that these people would not be
prosecuted and here's the subsequent government saying: Well, screw that -
we're tearing those letters up. It doesn't matter.
So,
what's the lesson from that? It's an ago-old lesson in Irish history and one
which has always divided physical force Republicanism from Constitutional
Nationalism with physical force people saying: At the end of the day you can't
trust these people because they'll always do the dirt on you - and here is an
example of it.
SB: Okay, Ed, thank you very
much. Unfortunately, we are out of time. We were talking to Ed Moloney, author
of A Secret History of the IRA, and you can follow Ed's blog, The
Broken Elbow. So again, Ed, thanks very much. (ends time stamp ~ 43:25)
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