Britain has the Power of Veto

Sean Bresnahan,  PRO 1916 Societies, in a letter featuring in the Irish News in August raises concerns about the power of the British state to block Irish unification.

Pat Fahy (July 17) makes the argument that the UK Parliament does not have the right to block Irish Unity. Whatever the legal finery of that position the most important thing to consider is that while it may not have the RIGHT (something itself open to debate to say the very least) it still retains the ability. To all intents and purposes, especially given Britain's notoriety for duplicity when it comes to Irish affairs, we're splitting hairs for the sake of argument.
Let's just set the clever legal niceties aside and deal with reality in layman's terms. Under the 1998 Agreement or Act (whichever we choose to call it) the British government at Westminster reserves to itself alone the power to call a 'border poll' on the constitutional status of the six-counties, it reserves the exclusive right to determine the wording and parameters of any such poll, and by its legal standing as a political instrument of the sovereign British Crown itself any such poll and its outworkings remain subject at all times before and after to the assent of the British Parliament at Westminster.

Regardless of the fine points of the law it's pretty clear that Britain retains the power to block the reunification of our country. Indeed it actively does so on a daily basis and has done so since the very day it partitioned this country against the democratic wishes of the people who actually live here. To my mind Britain does indeed have no right to block Irish Unity but that's not how the situation stands. No amount of vague legal distraction, however nuanced, can disguise that.

By reducing the concept of Irish self-determination to facilitate a Unionist veto (the same veto republicans railed against throughout the long years of opposition to the six-county state) Britain has boxed clever and found a way of retaining its ability to block Irish reunification while appearing as though it holds no such legal position. That might pass with those who now find themselves in the position of upholding the legitimacy of the Unionist veto but there remain others who can still see the wood for the trees.

The only right that's really in question here is the long-denied right of the Irish people to full, unimpeded self-determination. Any process that allows a Unionist veto to qualify that right contravenes the very principle of self-determination itself and should be rejected by those who hold Irish Unity as their primary political aim. Those who suggest otherwise might ask themselves if Britain does not have the right to block Irish reunification as claimed then why does Ireland remain partitioned despite the presence of an overwhelming majority among its people who favour a United Ireland?

328 comments:

  1. As an Irish nationalist.
    I have long been convinced of those arguments that only a 32 County vote on the future of Ireland would do.
    The question is how do we get there?
    I also agree with the view that a majority of Irish favour a 32 County state. An Irish Times poll shows this.
    But I worry about the divisions in Irish Nationalism.
    Can't they be put aside. For one last push in getting Brits out and then fall out afterwards over how the Country is run.
    My ideal would be a 32 County like Denmark. Nobody ever mentions Denmark. except for Lego and bacon it's anonymous. A grey man of Europe.
    Yet it's a Nation that provides for it's people and it's coherent. well established and above all stable. I like it.
    Now If someone comes along and wants to make Ireland into America-lite. Fine. I'll accept that ( if the public wants it) just so long as it's a 32 County state. whatever.
    Surely the next phase of whatever Irish struggle should be the winning one. The objective should be unity. and all other dogma placed on hold until after that objective is achieved. The Split can wait until after.
    In short all I care about is erasing the border. I consider that a win. If Ireland becomes like Denmark, that would be wonderful. But winning is an end to partition.
    Can we shame Unionists into been Non Unionists by calling them quislings for been "loyal" to a foreign power?
    Shall we point out to them that England has sunk into a deindustrialized wasteland. Detroit with North Sea oil and a faulty banking system attached ( See LIBOR and the "fixing" thereof )
    Or it's engagement in militarism, at great expense of resources it no longer possesses?
    illegal wars in Iraq?
    Matrix Churchill scandal?
    Baby-P scandals.
    Who looks at Britain today.
    with the shipyards closed.the factories torn down.
    Only jobs in retail at £13,000 per year.
    A failed education system.except for the rich.
    And says ..Ohhhhh Yes.
    I want to be part of that.
    Even Irish emigrants fancy Canada, Australia and the USA If But they can get past the strict entry requirments. Virtually none would go to England If they had any choice in the matter.
    Has anyone been in Birmingham recently.
    What incompetence turned this place from the "workshop of the World" into the Bullring?
    The English feet are made of clay.
    They have failed in their own Country. Why must they be in mine?
    I am sorry. But England once had everything that I would admire in a Nation. We Irish never had it.. (in part due to the English Navigation Acts)
    And they peed it up against the wall.
    Why should anybody respect them? For the football? For Eastenders?
    Two things that raise my blood against the English.
    Their horrible history in Ireland.
    And the incompetence they shown over their native industries.
    Why are they still here?

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  2. Guys, the elephant you can't admit to seeing is still there.

    Unionists don't refuse a U.I. because they love England/Royalty: we refuse because we are not Gaels, our ethnic ties are with the Scots/English/Welsh, and the British way of life has - until now - brought us a level of civil and religious liberty we saw was not on offer in a U.I.

    The Gaelic nation is not dependent on occupying the whole of Ireland. They can share it with the Ulster planters.

    But let the Gaels show us how better life would be in a U.I. - we are open to persuasion. As GB slides into ever grosser immorality and ethnic clashes, you have the opportunity to show us how much has changed in the mindset of the Gaelic/Irish nation. Show us how our ethnicity will be respected on a par with the Gaels; show us how Roman Catholicism will not trump our religious liberty. In short, show us that our cherished civil and religious liberties will be as well protected in a U.I. as in the U.K.

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  3. Yet another republican article that fails to mention Dublin. This obsession with 'the Brits' is unhealthy, the key to a UI lies down south. If Dublin doesn't want it or push for it, it ain't gonna happen.

    As Wolfsbane says, where is the effort to convince unionism of the benefits of a UI? Or did The Druid's performance in Ardoyne show that the uber-gael is alive and well in republicanism?

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  4. Wolfsbane that's very kind...

    The Gaelic nation is not dependent on occupying the whole of Ireland. They can share it with the Ulster planters.

    So the Irish have the right to share Ireland with the people who took part of it from them...Why can't or don't the Ulster planters simply accept Irish ways.

    Show us how our ethnicity will be respected on a par with the Gaels; show us how Roman Catholicism will not trump our religious liberty.

    And why don't you show the people exactly how the Ulster planters respected Ireland? As for the RC church (or any church).. If I was president of Ireland.. I'd ban religion. I'd turn all chapels, mosques, places of worship into something that's beneficial to people...

    Peter,
    Or did The Druid's performance in Ardoyne show that the uber-gael is alive and well in republicanism?

    Some would argue they were playing to the crowd. That's what groups do at concerts. What about the loyal orders and their reworking of the Beach Boys song that was played outside St Patrick's chapel when the Parades commission said before hand no stoking the tension by playing sectarian music...

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  5. @Frankie Unionists have been told for decades that republicanism is for all, catholic, prod and dissenter. Sure wasn't 'ol Wolfie Tone a prod? Yet there is a large section of republicanism that hates Britain and all that comes from it, language, religion, culture, the lot. I have asked before on this site for someone to explain this paradox within republicanism and nobody has replied. If republicans want a secular socialist republic then do the uber-gaels share this desire? What would Che Guevara have thought about workers being executed for their religion at Kingsmill? In Maloney's book on The Dark apparently he was concerned about the sectarianism in the iRA but it is rarely discussed. Will unionists ever be accepted as truly Irish or will our protestant heritage debar us from it? Defending The Druids by saying 'whatabout the Famine Song' doesn't answer the question, both are wrong.

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  6. In Maloney's book on The Dark apparently he was concerned about the sectarianism in the iRA but it is rarely discussed.

    Kingsmill has been discussed at lenght on TPQ... As for songs played at Ardoyne or outside St Patricks, there are more pressing issues on the ground like welfare reform & health people should exercise theirs minds on.. I'm with you Peter both were wrong and wrong for the same reasons.

    Sure wasn't 'ol Wolfie Tone a prod? Yet there is a large section of republicanism that hates Britain and all that comes from it, language, religion, culture, the lot. I have asked before on this site for someone to explain this paradox within republicanism and nobody has replied

    I'll go out on a limb and say you are as Irish as myself Peter. You may not agrree with what the IRA etc done in the past.. So did at least 51+1% of Irish nationalist and a section of Irish republicans...What makes you British? What is British culture? What part of British culture do you like ....The Manx part, Scottish part, Welsh part...English part?

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  7. @Frankie Thanks for your reply but you don't really address the issue. Let me come at it in a different way: If republicanism is for all then why are so many republicans piously catholic and viciously anti-British? For many on this island to be Irish is to be catholic and hate the sasenach. Where do secular socialist republicans fit with their uber-gael colleagues? People who are more like Eoin O'Duffy than Brendan Hughes? This is a fundamental schism and flaw within republicanism that I never see being addressed. Unionist suspicion of republicanism and the catholic church are well justified don't you think?

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  8. Peter I agree with your position on this.
    As a fellow Ulsterman, though from a nationalist/republican background background, let me share my views based on now having lived longer in the 26 counties than I did in the north.

    Yes, the majority in the 26 Counties aspire to a United Ireland. Yes, they'd like to have their fellow nationalists included into an enlarged state at some time in the future. And indeed I believe yes they would have good intentions about accommodating those in your community too ... though also at some time in the future.

    'We must get together sometime ... but it's not good for us presently!'

    Behind and despite the aspirations and good intentions about the distant future, in the present (and I believe, in the short and medium term too) there's still a good deal of reluctance, even resistance and a small quotient of hostility to facilitating any such enormous changes to the status quo. Just look at how fearfully they react to SF successes down here.


    I agree northern nationalism/republicanism, as you suggest, has a blind spot about all this.

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  9. @ Peter.
    I can't answer your question about how protestants should be treated in a UI.
    Other than to say..Same as everyone else. That is a Republic.
    Whilst I can't prove that to you .Only that I care not about religion. only Nationalism is my religion.
    But the main point I wanted to make. Was why not ask people say from Dun Laoighre in Dublin? Or South Dublin. These were Unionist areas pre 1922.
    Or pick some other place that voted Unionist in 1922 and find the descendants and talk with them.
    All I can say in the suburb of Dublin that I grew up there was a protestant church and I lived on a close with protestant family. I don't recall there been any trouble.In fact I never was aware that they were even protestant. Obviously my parents knew.
    But I never cared. Been dragged to church was a horrible experience in my youth. I never had religion. And in school I would often put my hand up to answer a question in Irish, English, Maths. But never religion and seldom geography. Just no interest in it.

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  10. frankie said:
    'So the Irish have the right to share Ireland with the people who took part of it from them...Why can't or don't the Ulster planters simply accept Irish ways.'

    Frankie, all our fathers were invaders. The Gaels were not the original inhabitants of Ireland either. We have to remember our past faults and live to make a better future for us all.

    'And why don't you show the people exactly how the Ulster planters respected Ireland?'

    That's the past - are you saying the Irish should make the same mistakes now as my fathers did back then? Ought we not rather learn from the selfishness and folly of the past, and make sure we don't repeat it?

    'As for the RC church (or any church).. If I was president of Ireland.. I'd ban religion. I'd turn all chapels, mosques, places of worship into something that's beneficial to people...'

    Yes, that's a big reason I would not want a UI from your lot either. Imperial Romanism restricted Protestant rights, but your sort of Republicanism would remove them completely - along with the rights of all other religions. A UI under Imperial Humanism/Marxism is not acceptable to Protestants or Catholics.

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  11. Thanks Henry Joy and Ozzy for your replies but it seems no one from the republican realm wants to talk about this head on. Why? I'll try for one last time:
    I was reading, a while ago, about a visit to Patsy O'Hara's ma's house. The author said that on one living room wall there was communist iconography, hammers and sickles, starry ploughs, red stars etc and on the other was catholic iconography, pictures of the pope, virgin Marys etc. How do secular socialist republicans feel about such pious nationalistic catholicism within its ranks? I would really like to know. Basically, how secular and socialist is modern republicanism?

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  12. Peter,
    I can't answer your question, because you are talking about the enigma that is human nature, cognitive dissonance and all that. These contradictions are found in all ideologies. Republican splits are notorious, while we are in agreement about a united Ireland there are differences about how that united Ireland would look. Is that not the case in all democratic societies? These are problems that all democracies have to deal with and overcome.

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  13. Peter,

    You are nit picking, the Druids playing republican music in a republican district is hardly news. Would you prefer they ended with a chorus of god save lizzy or at least the Sex Pistols version? Why mention what anyone has on their walls, are you saying they should not be allowed to decorate their homes any way they see fit?

    That old adage is still alive a Protestant Ulster for a Protestant People.

    The great fabrication of a Papist conspiracy manufactured by Protestant extremists and believed only by the not so loyal to the English or Lizzy.

    For God and Ulster hardly welcomes the non-Protestant people.
    The myth that religious liberties would be threatened is absolute bunk the Island is full of religious people and the two main branches of Christianity pray to the same god with a few discrepancies’ in how they go about it.

    Are Irish Protestants suffering a loss of religious freedom in the Free-State?
    Do Roman Catholics suffer a loss of religious freedom in England, Scotland, and Wales? The last stronghold of kingdoms and castles is in the north where Protestant extremists live in the past with this imaginary republican threat of for the Pope and Ireland.

    Religions tend to drag their knuckles as the world grows and advances Religions have no problem denying people civil-liberties.

    Why does the PUL accept being Northern Irish? The Irish part is hard to avoid and technically is a concession of being Irish.

    Talk about what head-on? As on the Quill little is left unchallenged or dissected.

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  14. Pete this is my two bits..
    I was reading, a while ago, about a visit to Patsy O'Hara's ma's house.

    Isn't it possible or plausible that the communist, socialist iconography in Patsy O'Hara's mother house simply a tribute of sorts his mother had for her son and the religious ones reflected her faith?

    If republicanism is for all then why are so many republicans piously catholic and viciously anti-British?

    The anti British part is easy to grasp..Let's face it they don't exactly have a great track record in Ireland (or any other country they've invaded)...

    For many on this island to be Irish is to be catholic and hate the sasenach

    No.. The fact most of Ireland is 'Catholic' doesn't mean you have to be Catholic to be Irish.

    Wolfsbane...

    Frankie, all our fathers were invaders.

    Why don't we go back to the mass migration in deepest darkest Africa at the dawn of modern man and blame them for not staying put...

    The Gaels were not the original inhabitants of Ireland either. We have to remember our past faults and live to make a better future for us all.

    I know the Geals/Celts weren't the original people of Ireland.. Neither were the Vikings or Normans but at least they accepted the status quo and in some respects became more Irish than the Irish. The British/Planters wanted to wipe every thing Irish of the face of the earth..


    Yes, that's a big reason I would not want a UI from your lot either.

    And you are trying to tell me what? Those monkeys in London aren't doing a great job of running their own country.

    'US lot'??? Wolf,whether you like it or not it will happen. London can't afford 10billion a year to keep the six counties afloat much longer.. As Ozzy pointed out in another thread the minute the UK pulls out of the EU..The game will be up for 'You lot'...

    Imperial Romanism restricted Protestant rights, but your sort of Republicanism would remove them completely - along with the rights of all other religions.

    People will be fee to practice religion in their homes. What does religion do? What purpose does it have? Apart from create division, hate, cover up abuse and screw people...and make war..

    A UI under Imperial Humanism/Marxism is not acceptable to Protestants or Catholics.

    I'm neither a Catholic or Protestant. I'm a Belfast Rockabilly..I don't do religion. .I don't know much about Marxism etc.. I don't see why people simply can't get on with their own lives and co-exist. Let's face it Wolfs, every other model has failed..

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  15. It appears that my motives have been mistaken. I'm not having a go at republicanism or Mrs O'Hara's choice of decor, nor am I interested in this as a protestant because I am an atheist. My interest is purely academic. I am doing an MA in politics and during a brilliant seminar on the deadly decade 1912-1922 we were discussing the tension between secular socialists and pious catholics within the republican movement at the time of the rising. It then became clear that this contradiction within republicanism has survived right through the last century to this day. IRA men fought on either side of the Spanish Civil War, some for Franco's facist catholic crusade and some for the communist forces of the Spanish Republic. Today the RNU reaches out to loyalists to oppose austerity cuts while at the same time 'orangies go home' is cheered to the rafters in Ardoyne. I am curious (with one eye on a possible dissertation) about what republicans think of this contradiction. Do you talk about it? Argue about it? Ignore it? I apologise if I have seemed partizan in my questions, I was hoping AM might have added his tuppence worth.

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  16. Peter,

    maybe someone from RNU could answer your question. As for the contradiction a mediocre band telling the Brits to go home probably was less potent than the hangovers the following morning. Contractions are common why do loyalists burn Irish flags are they at war with the Free-State.

    Austerity-cuts impact both sides there is no difference between Protestant and Catholic poverty/unemployment any inroads reaching out on this issue should be welcomed but its treated with suspicion instead we will rely on the usual puppets in Stormont to bollix things up as they depend on the divisions and lead the ordinary people more often than not to the political guillotine.

    There is a wee bit more to the history leading up to involvement in the Spanish civil war. In today’s terms the god squad that aided Spanish fascism would be religious extremists. A different time motivated by the new godless scourge communism. Hypocrisy being the rule of thumb exposing the ultra-right-wing conservatives within republicanism acting just like the British invaders going off to prop up a dictatorship is it any wonder that Ulster was conceded.

    Many on the other side were kicked out of the IRA and rightly went to fight for Spanish freedom joining the international brigades estimated between 25 to 35 thousand people from over 50 countries. A better contradiction being the communists played a role in the downfall despising the Anarchists and their pre-war successes.

    Today republican politics have shifted again the main party SF are rewriting the book the hard-line language is reduced to a passive-aggressive stance with the acceptance of British rule.
    2016 will probably show how far they have retreated and if the Royals show up that is basically the English taking a shite on the Easter Rising. The only reason they would lower themselves to attend is it will focus on them and dull any nationalist fervor.

    What Wolfsbane said is a contradiction as the PUL is only loyal if they get their way at least those who went off to fight in Spain showed conviction in their beliefs.

    Good luck on your discertation

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  17. While not directly related to the period (parts are) you are talking about Peter ... Republican Contradictions.. Left Republicanism... What is Irish republicanism?.....

    My advice is to Google the question you have in your head in as many different ways as possible.. I can't find the link AM pointed me to (one of the first pieces he penned for TPQ)...

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  18. Thanks guys for your contributions and once again I apologise if I was not clear in my intentions.

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  19. frankie said:
    'I know the Geals/Celts weren't the original people of Ireland.. Neither were the Vikings or Normans but at least they accepted the status quo and in some respects became more Irish than the Irish. The British/Planters wanted to wipe every thing Irish of the face of the earth..'

    The Gaels did not assimilate with the conquered - they displaced them. That's my point in saying all our fathers were invaders - the Gaels can't get a priggish about 'the invader' when they did the same thing. All of us invaded, conquered and displaced the natives to a significant extent.

    'And you are trying to tell me what? Those monkeys in London aren't doing a great job of running their own country.'

    I'm trying to tell you PULs are much safer in the UK than in your idea of a UI. UK citizens suffer the inequalities of a capitalist state, but are very prosperous in wealth and rights compared to anything I see on offer from any sort of UI.

    ''US lot'??? Wolf,whether you like it or not it will happen. London can't afford 10billion a year to keep the six counties afloat much longer.. As Ozzy pointed out in another thread the minute the UK pulls out of the EU..The game will be up for 'You lot'...'

    GB may pull out of NI as we cost them so much - but you think the ROI would fill our 10billion feeding bowl? Very generous of them.

    'People will be fee to practice religion in their homes.'

    I'm sure you think that the height of liberty. Will we have to notify the State if we have more than, say, ten present? Or will our church have to have a state official sit in each meeting to make sure we are not subverting the state or indoctrinating children?

    'What does religion do? What purpose does it have? Apart from create division, hate, cover up abuse and screw people...and make war..'

    There is good and bad religion, just as there is good and bad ideology. And as religion gets very personal and intense, it is open to abuse by crafty manipulators. Just like love relationships. Doesn't mean love and marriage is a bad thing, just because it can be abused.

    And you'll find division, hate, cover-up abuse and doing down of people are a big part of secular institutions as well as religious ones. It's just the hypocrisy is greater in the latter.

    'I don't see why people simply can't get on with their own lives and co-exist. Let's face it Wolfs, every other model has failed..'

    A fine sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agree - but the fact that you are arguing for the imposition of a UI on the PULs suggests you have a problem practising it.

    How about looking for a solution that both sides can live with? That would better live out the principle.

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  20. frankie said:
    'State and mind in modern Ireland

    A Pious Killing

    Letters concerning Irish Republican Brotherhood'

    Very helpful articles - thanks Frankie!

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  21. Tain Bo said:
    'What Wolfsbane said is a contradiction as the PUL is only loyal if they get their way at least those who went off to fight in Spain showed conviction in their beliefs.'

    We are only loyal if we are not getting shafted in the process. We don't owe the State our ethnic identity and liberty. We were happy to defend the State's freedom from Nazism; but not to agree to being delivered into a UI hostile to our identity and liberties.

    Seems perfectly reasonable to me, action based on conviction of our beliefs.

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  22. Tain Bo said:
    'That old adage is still alive a Protestant Ulster for a Protestant People.'

    A sad part of the response to the Catholic Ireland that was being constructed in the South. But it could not survive in the North, as its minority did not knuckle under as did the minority in the South.

    'The great fabrication of a Papist conspiracy manufactured by Protestant extremists and believed only by the not so loyal to the English or Lizzy.'

    One doesn't have to buy into a 'Papist conspiracy' to see the actuality that was constructed in the Free State/Republic. Frankie's link to Nationalism in Ireland By D. George Boyce‏ is very enlightening.

    'For God and Ulster hardly welcomes the non-Protestant people.'

    It wasn't meant to - it was the crux sentiment of the PUL people under threat of being vanquished. A Constitution or Bill of Rights cannot be expressed in such statements.

    'The myth that religious liberties would be threatened is absolute bunk the Island is full of religious people and the two main branches of Christianity pray to the same god with a few discrepancies’ in how they go about it. Are Irish Protestants suffering a loss of religious freedom in the Free-State?'

    Contraception? Divorce? Was not Catholic dogma the determining factor until the late 20th C? The rights of Protestants to avail of these were denied.

    And of course we can read modern republicans who want to close all religious churches.

    'Do Roman Catholics suffer a loss of religious freedom in England, Scotland, and Wales? The last stronghold of kingdoms and castles is in the north where Protestant extremists live in the past with this imaginary republican threat of for the Pope and Ireland.'

    We are glad to see the demise of Papal power in the the ROI. A modern Republic seems to be virtually free from that stranglehold. But the UIs on offer seem to be even more hostile to Christianity.

    'Religions tend to drag their knuckles as the world grows and advances Religions have no problem denying people civil-liberties.'

    Indeed - that has been a fault with many religions. Baptists like me, and many other brands of Christian, have long ago sought to purge that from our midst. The remaining problems for all societies, secular or not, is where to draw the line on public morality. That will always require refinement.

    'Why does the PUL accept being Northern Irish? The Irish part is hard to avoid and technically is a concession of being Irish.'

    No, it means 'of Northern Ireland'. Just as 'North American' and 'South American' do not make both 'Americans'.

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  23. Wolfsbane.....
    The Gaels did not assimilate with the conquered - they displaced them.

    Educate me Wolf. The reality is no one actually knows. You're basically talking about stone age man and there is little if any written record . It's mostly guess work. How do you know (any more than me) that when the first Celts arrived they didn't like what they saw, buttered up the local woman and intergrated? Historians have an idea of what happened ie..tools they used, houses they built and food they ate outside of that not much else.

    What rights Wolf do you have? Every other day your rights are being eroded. How can you say in the same breath ' UK citizens suffer the inequalities of a capitalist state" (you mean being told what to do by a British cabinet full of millionaires who don't live in the real world) then say....but are very prosperous in wealth and rights compared to anything I see on offer from any sort of UI.. Do you have any idea of the amount of food is being handed out in food banks? How many families are below the poverty line? How much money they don't have? Why in the six counties the personal debt is higher than any part of England, Scotland or Wales... The people in the six counties are broke and are living week to week..

    GB may pull out of NI as we cost them so much - but you think the ROI would fill our 10billion feeding bowl? Very generous of them.

    The UK will pull out of the EU be under no illusion. If call me Dave gets in next time around or if Nigel holds the balance of power, the UK will pull out...Most Britain's don't want to be in the EU.. Across Europe today there is a huge swing to the right. There is a real chance the next President of France will be Marine Le Pen.. It wont be Frankie H and the UMP (Sarko's party )can't be trusted either and are just as corrupt as the left..And the French don't have any other option but the FN..And they (the French) are in a worse position than the UK.


    I'm sure you think that the height of liberty. Will we have to notify the State if we have more than, say, ten present?

    Don't be daft... I never said I'd limit the number of people you can invite into your house if I was President...

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  24. Wolf,

    Or will our church have to have a state official sit in each meeting to make sure we are not subverting the state or indoctrinating children?

    There wont be any church, chapels, mosques or other... They'll be put to good use like turning them into schools, libraries, affordable accomodation...Basically things that will benefit the people. Whats wrong with praying in your house to what ever god you wish to follow? Why do you feel the need to go to all the trouble of putting on your Sunday best and trotting off to some place to pray when you can say the same prayers in the comfort of your home to the same god and 'crafty manipulators' wont be able to corrupt your thoughts..


    There is good and bad religion,

    There is no good or bad religions... They all preach peace and love but end up causing war, hate and everything they say they're against.

    just as there is good and bad ideology.

    And all religions are up there with the best of the bad...

    And as religion gets very personal and intense, it is open to abuse by crafty manipulators.

    If religion is personal then keep it that way and don't ram it down peoples throats. And these 'crafty manipulators'... Such as the men of the cloth who run the show or their bosses who cover up the abuses the men of cloth carry out.

    Just like love relationships. Doesn't mean love and marriage is a bad thing, just because it can be abused.

    But marriage would end up being faded out if I was President. Why spend all that money on one day etc.. Why not put it to better use like securing a roof over your head. I don't see the sense in marriage.. I know lots of couples who didn't marry and have stronger relationships than married couples.

    And you'll find division, hate, cover-up abuse and doing down of people are a big part of secular institutions as well as religious ones. It's just the hypocrisy is greater in the latter.

    As Michael Corleone said... "We're both part of the same hypocriy Senator".. Different cheeks of the same arse.


    How about looking for a solution that both sides can live with? That would better live out the principle.

    How about a United Ireland and the Irish take control of our affairs, our wealth and tell the banks, capitalists etc... to take a long walk of a short plank? Do you have any idea of the black gold around the shores of Ireland that doesn't get filtered down? Most of the wealth is given away to a very few bunch of select people and they all have personal accounts with Rothschild..

    Wolf why do you follow what ever branch of Protestantism it is you follow? We both know Protestantism is a bastardized version of Catholicism and both are basically pagan in origin..

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  25. Wolfesbane,
    America is a continent, so your argument doesn't make any sense. As far as united Ireland goes that is not happening. What is required from your community is an acceptance of your tyranny, until that happens how is it possible to intertwine.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Peter,

    no bother and no need for an apology in print things are not always as clear as in person. I appreciate your input

    ReplyDelete
  27. Wolfsbane,

    I don’t believe Carson, or the UUC and the UVF would view it as a sad response to the Free-State.
    On a closer look at the bluff the Kaiser saved the day and I am not talking about the German arms piped through Larne. That was an extremely fluid movement without so much as a hiccup suggestion the British military had more than a hand in the precise military arms shipment.

    Naturally the Brits feed the story that they knew nothing about the shipment add the wink and nod.
    Who bluffed whom in that political circus talk about getting shafted this is where it becomes sad as many a young man that believed in Carson never got to use the German weapons but ironically when the whistle’s sounded over the top they went to be mowed down by German weapons in the last western war of kings and castles.

    A royal mess and the moronic thinking of the time an arch duke bites the dust and to satisfy the royal insult we have four years of ritual slaughter in large part a Christian blood bath another contradiction as there was nothing Christian about it.

    A Protestant Ulster for a Protestant people excludes the rights of non-Protestants no matter how it is explained away it is religious dominance nothing short of a theocracy usurping democracy for god and Ulster I think the message was clear enough for the children of a lesser god.

    Exactly where in the bible does it say go forth and be sure to use contraception is that not defying gods rule of go forth and multiply? Is contraception an acceptable form of abortion? Why do religions oppose abortion does that not interfere with the right to choose? When Christian’s marry the ceremony usually includes a vow before god to remain loyal in their union. When the harmonious honeymoon ends breaking the vow between the man and woman is sound but explain how you reconcile breaking the vow to the almighty?

    Do you oppose the rights of queer folk to get married or the few times homosexuality is mentioned in the bible are to be upheld but the other part of breaking vows and the quick fix abortion gets a nod?
    Do you know anyone that strictly adheres to the bible rules? What about working on the Sabbath even though that goal post was shifted from the Jewish Saturday killing two birds with one stone the pagan Romans and Greeks gathering in temples on Sunday eventually converting to the one god a lot of things in the bible have pagan origins.

    In truth the bible is basically a history of the Jews full of stories and myths usurped by dissident Jews much like the dissident Catholics broke away on a large scale with the reformation another change and reworking of original books of Judaism so who is telling the truth as taking a crap 150 yards outside the city worked back then but no need for that law to be observed today.

    continued...

    ReplyDelete
  28. ...

    The reason I say it is a myth is the little discussed fact is that partition cut both ways while it is hailed as a victory for Protestants the Protestants in the 3 Ulster counties and the rest of the Free-State got the shaft by the Unionist in the north and were traded off in the dirty deal. If they were persecuted as the unionist claim they would have been in a UI then why did they not see the bright rosy future that a protestant north for a protestant people and all that was on offer in the empire. It was a case of tough shite for them as the union was more important than their religious freedoms; the same freedoms cited the Papists would deny them their rights. If that had been true then they had a safe haven and could easily uproot and take shelter in the north.

    Why they didn’t uproot is simple unlike the way the taigs were treated in the north they were not treated the same way no one kicked them off their hard earned land nor stripped them of their farms or jobs and homes and surprise they didn’t convert and are still proud of their protestant heritage and no one could care if they have picture of the royal family in their homes.

    In the long term they got the better deal even though their own brethren give them the shaft it looks like the Protestant Ulster for a Protestant people had no problem tossing them into the Free-State the reality being it was only for certain protestants those north eastern enough and in greater numbers.
    Whilst the north was ripe with sectarianism the Protestants a few yards across the line escaped that stagnant distortion of religious hatred and were not poisoned by the nonsense.

    I am not religious in my younger days I read up on the history of Catholicism and its control, brutality, the slaughters, corruption and deceit it is not difficult to see why the reformation came about changing the bible was sound enough but they fell into much the same ways and became as corrupt with power and just as vicious when it came to implementing their brand of Christianity.

    Today’s republicans in the north have evolved separately from Free-State influence the number of hard-line Catholics was never high and is even less now. I for one would not entertain entering into a UI if I believed a foreign country was going to dictate the pace with Catholicism that would be hypocritical as I oppose the foreign country dictating the pace in the north with the sectarian law protecting the royals and the Protestant throne.

    You are happy to see the decline of the RCs in the Free State would you welcome the rise of Islam?

    ...

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  29. ...

    Many heathens like myself would like to see religion scrapped I don’t follow that school of thought as I believe people should be allowed to practice their religion unhindered but religions should stick to saving souls and leave the politics to the gangsters as mixing politics and religion is always volatile.

    I think the Canadians may feel miffed as technically they are further north than the USA who would be more central and the rest would be southern.
    Interesting reference as the British loyalist in the colonies said f this for a game of darts, being shafted and taxed to the hilt and dissented the rag tag militia went on to deliver the superior British army a resounding and humiliating defeat. Another interesting we myth Paul Revere didn’t yell the British are coming as the loyalists were British he said the Red Coats avoiding any confusion.

    My point is why keep the Irish connection that’s the contradiction as Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland are the same the word north is a geographical position the word Ireland identifies a country just as Scotland, England, and Wales. Why didn’t the original planters break the connection drop the Irish and rename the gaff New Orange land drop the Ulster and the Red Hand holding onto those names and symbols is an acceptance of the culture you object to.

    For example New South Wales, borders Victoria and Queensland robbing the natives by imposing new names on their turf.

    Anyway I will believe the hype when the Irish Protestants come forth and tell the horrors they suffered under Papist rule after being shafted by the loyal brethren in the north



    ReplyDelete
  30. Wolfsbane.

    My point exactly you convey what is crystal clear to the PUL supporting the contradiction loyal and separate as long as you don’t get the shaft which in honesty means there is no loyalty but an unhealthy dose of religious and political ransoming as in political mercenaries’ trading your souls literally holding the non-Protestant people hostage as if the Government pisses the PUL off or if the sectarian law barring taigs from the was changed will the PUL march on England to restore their civil and religious liberties, no, they will attack the usual suspects as any change will be mutated as a taig conspiracy.

    The problem is times are a changing the bluff of Carson will not fly today back then the industrial north had value to the Brits the same Brits who shafted the north the pride of Belfast sank like the Titanic the massive industry that supported the shipyard axed but no worries you can always visit the museum and remember the grand old days of yore.

    Much like the needless over the top deaths of men at Somme the great industrial cities, mowed down and today NI is a drain but as long as we are British we can ignore the shafting and the only job security is within the security services. Wealthy Unionists will always shaft the working class loyalists just the same as working class Catholics get the shaft. It is always the same yarn who cares what misery the English inflict in the north they can depend on the vote and have no problem flogging how great it is to be in the union but don’t ask them to share the wealth.

    I wondered who made the profit from the industrial north the merchants of London if you asked me Carson’s bluff shafted the north all that is left to be exploited is the same old vote not a bad trade for the English where the sun barely rises gone are the days of it never sets.

    ReplyDelete
  31. frankie said:
    'Educate me Wolf. The reality is no one actually knows. You're basically talking about stone age man and there is little if any written record . It's mostly guess work. How do you know (any more than me) that when the first Celts arrived they didn't like what they saw, buttered up the local woman and intergrated? Historians have an idea of what happened ie..tools they used, houses they built and food they ate outside of that not much else.'

    Yes, I agree that we don't know for sure what happened to the original inhabitants - but since the Gaelic invaders came out on top it strongly suggests the Gaels were not assimilated by the natives.

    And the Irish have been happy to occupy (along with their British and European colleagues) North America, Australia and New Zealand - all without the consent of the natives. They did not blend in with the natives and adopt their culture - they dominated and discriminated.

    'What rights Wolf do you have?'

    Freedom of religion. Freedom of speech. Freedom of employment. And many others.

    'Every other day your rights are being eroded.'

    I agree! I'm trying to make sure as little as possible of that happens. That's why I support leaving the EU.

    'How can you say in the same breath ' UK citizens suffer the inequalities of a capitalist state" (you mean being told what to do by a British cabinet full of millionaires who don't live in the real world) then say....but are very prosperous in wealth and rights compared to anything I see on offer from any sort of UI.. Do you have any idea of the amount of food is being handed out in food banks? How many families are below the poverty line? How much money they don't have? Why in the six counties the personal debt is higher than any part of England, Scotland or Wales... The people in the six counties are broke and are living week to week..'

    Compared to the individual wealth in any likely UI, I think most citizens of NI are in a much better condition. The poverty line in an Irish Cuba would be something entirely new to all of us.

    'The UK will pull out of the EU be under no illusion.'

    I hope so. I'll be voting so.

    'If call me Dave gets in next time around or if Nigel holds the balance of power, the UK will pull out...Most Britain's don't want to be in the EU.. Across Europe today there is a huge swing to the right. There is a real chance the next President of France will be Marine Le Pen.. It wont be Frankie H and the UMP (Sarko's party )can't be trusted either and are just as corrupt as the left..And the French don't have any other option but the FN..And they (the French) are in a worse position than the UK.'

    Indeed.

    'Don't be daft... I never said I'd limit the number of people you can invite into your house if I was President...'

    But you would make sure we can't meet in a hall or other large space - must keep our numbers small?

    ReplyDelete
  32. frankie said:
    'There wont be any church, chapels, mosques or other... They'll be put to good use like turning them into schools, libraries, affordable accomodation...Basically things that will benefit the people. Whats wrong with praying in your house to what ever god you wish to follow? Why do you feel the need to go to all the trouble of putting on your Sunday best and trotting off to some place to pray when you can say the same prayers in the comfort of your home to the same god and 'crafty manipulators' wont be able to corrupt your thoughts..'

    Nothing wrong with meeting in our own homes. Much of the early Church met in private homes. But as the churches grew, larger premises became more convenient. As Protestants, we don't believe in holy buildings. Convenience is the only reason for having rented or owned large meeting houses. Your prohibition would be discrimination against religious people.

    'There is no good or bad religions... They all preach peace and love but end up causing war, hate and everything they say they're against.'

    The failure of many to live up to the non-coercive standards of the New Testament does not mean all religions are coercive. The marriage of 'Christianity' to the State has been a great evil down the ages - but many have stood against it and struggled for a return to New Testament standards.


    'And all religions are up there with the best of the bad...'

    Search the New Testament and you will find no thought of coercive religion.

    'If religion is personal then keep it that way and don't ram it down peoples throats.'

    I agree. Religion should be solely a matter of free choice.

    'And these 'crafty manipulators'... Such as the men of the cloth who run the show or their bosses who cover up the abuses the men of cloth carry out.'

    Yes. Wealth and power are their real gods.

    'But marriage would end up being faded out if I was President. Why spend all that money on one day etc.. Why not put it to better use like securing a roof over your head. I don't see the sense in marriage.. I know lots of couples who didn't marry and have stronger relationships than married couples.'

    Hmm. Another 'verboten' from your UI! But no, I was not speaking of the marriage celebrations, only the marriage. I too deplore extravagance on ceremonies that could be better spent on equipping the home for life. I'm talking about the value of life-long commitment and love - they are not valueless just because they can be abused.

    'As Michael Corleone said... "We're both part of the same hypocriy Senator".. Different cheeks of the same arse.'

    Yes, some good observations in the Godfather films!

    ReplyDelete
  33. frankie said:
    'How about a United Ireland and the Irish take control of our affairs, our wealth and tell the banks, capitalists etc... to take a long walk of a short plank?'

    If that was all your UI entailed, I would consider it. But since you have a very different idea of civil and religious liberty, I will not be tempted.

    'Do you have any idea of the black gold around the shores of Ireland that doesn't get filtered down? Most of the wealth is given away to a very few bunch of select people and they all have personal accounts with Rothschild..'

    It's debatable how much natural wealth Ireland has. One would need to make sure of all its resources and the likely standard of life it could maintain if one was considering such a move.

    And of course that the new elite would not be themselves in cahoots with the global elite.

    'Wolf why do you follow what ever branch of Protestantism it is you follow?'

    Because God opened my understanding to recognise His voice in the words of the Bible - and I believed and followed Him.

    'We both know Protestantism is a bastardized version of Catholicism'

    Depends on your definition of Protestantism. If you take a snapshot of the Reformation beginning, you might be tempted to say as you do. But if you look at the theological arguments, it is clear that men were being called back to authentic Christianity, a Christianity stripped of the heretical and pagan baggage it gathered in the centuries after the New Testament revelation. The RCC calls that baggage 'Tradition'. Protestantism is a Sola Scriptura religion.

    'and both are basically pagan in origin..'

    You've been reading too much of Dan Brown. Real Christianity was a fulfilment of the Old Testament witness; the religion of the God of Israel in its final and complete revelation.

    ReplyDelete
  34. David Higgins said:
    'America is a continent, so your argument doesn't make any sense.'

    You mean, a big island. It's only terminology - the principle remains the same.

    'As far as united Ireland goes that is not happening. What is required from your community is an acceptance of your tyranny, until that happens how is it possible to intertwine.'

    My community needs to stop trying to march where it's not wanted - if that's what you mean by our tyranny. I think most of us PULs would be open to that.

    Your community needs to stop its attempts to de-Brit us - stop burning down Orange halls, defacing war-memorials, insisting we must submit to being part of a UI.

    When we respect each other enough for that, a growing sense of being one community will evolve.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Tain Bo said:
    'I don’t believe Carson, or the UUC and the UVF would view it as a sad response to the Free-State.'

    Obviously not back when Craig said it. It must have seemed a natural response then, without the hindsight of knowing where a non- resolved citizenship would lead us.

    'On a closer look at the bluff'

    That has been Republicanism's big mistake - it was no bluff. To insist it was is to show contempt for the character of the PUL people.

    'the Kaiser saved the day and I am not talking about the German arms piped through Larne. That was an extremely fluid movement without so much as a hiccup suggestion the British military had more than a hand in the precise military arms shipment.'

    No doubt some support came from military sources - even if only a blind-eye on the shipments out of Larne. But if you are suggesting the PULs were incapable of organising and carrying it out on their own - that's just another example of contempt for our people. It wasn't a bunch of drunks with guns like the UVF of 1966 - this was the whole spectrum of my people, from the educated elite down to the honest farm labourer.

    'Naturally the Brits feed the story that they knew nothing about the shipment add the wink and nod.
    Who bluffed whom in that political circus talk about getting shafted this is where it becomes sad as many a young man that believed in Carson never got to use the German weapons'

    I think it was a great mercy for both our communities that the War intervened. The War had a great cost - but Ireland in a civil war between the Unionists and Nationalists would have been a blood-bath, a 1st July for months on end.

    'but ironically when the whistle’s sounded over the top they went to be mowed down by German weapons in the last western war of kings and castles.
    A royal mess and the moronic thinking of the time an arch duke bites the dust and to satisfy the royal insult we have four years of ritual slaughter'

    I doubt the validity of that analysis. For all the corruption of the elites, it seems to me that Germany was putting the rest of the elites in a situation where war or submission to Germany were the options. The former was a better choice for all our nations in the long run. Pity we made a mess of the Armistice.

    'in large part a Christian blood bath another contradiction as there was nothing Christian about it.'

    Indeed - Christian principles were not guiding any of the nations before they entered the war.

    'A Protestant Ulster for a Protestant people excludes the rights of non-Protestants no matter how it is explained away it is religious dominance nothing short of a theocracy usurping democracy for god and Ulster I think the message was clear enough for the children of a lesser god.'

    As I said, it was a catch-phrase to state the reality of our bit of Ireland as opposed to the Catholic state in the South. It was saying that the things valued by our PUL people - our British nature and rights - would be safe. So , yes, it was a message that the non-Prods would be a people without power, as was the case for the Protestants in the South.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Tain Bo said:
    'Exactly where in the bible does it say go forth and be sure to use contraception is that not defying gods rule of go forth and multiply?'

    Contraception gives the choice of how much multiplying will be done. Nothing of that is forbidden in Scripture.

    'Is contraception an acceptable form of abortion?'

    No, for it is NO form of abortion. The sperm is not a person, unlike the child in the womb.

    'Why do religions oppose abortion does that not interfere with the right to choose?'

    Because it is murder of a person. We are all agreed that no one has the right to choose to murder anyone.

    'When Christian’s marry the ceremony usually includes a vow before god to remain loyal in their union. When the harmonious honeymoon ends breaking the vow between the man and woman is sound but explain how you reconcile breaking the vow to the almighty?'

    Divorce is always a sin for at least one party - a breaking of the covenant. God hates covenant-breakers.

    But divorce is valid for the innocent party - they are under no obligation to tolerate adultery or to live in celibacy when their straying spouse leaves them.

    The historic Protestant position is stated here:
    The Westminster Confession of Faith
    CHAPTER XXIV
    Of Marriage and Divorce

    V. Adultery or fornication committed after a contract, being detected before marriage, gives just occasion to the innocent party to dissolve that contract. In the case of adultery after marriage, it is lawful for the innocent party to sue out a divorce and, after the divorce, to marry another, as if the offending party were dead.

    VI. Although the corruption of man be such as is apt to study arguments unduly to put asunder those whom God has joined together in marriage: yet, nothing but adultery, or such wilful desertion as can no way be remedied by the Church, or civil magistrate, is cause sufficient of dissolving the bond of marriage: wherein, a public and orderly course of proceeding is to be observed; and the persons concerned in it not left to their own wills, and discretion, in their own case.
    http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

    'Do you oppose the rights of queer folk to get married'

    Yes, I oppose the misuse of the term 'marriage' to cover their bond. But I do not oppose them having their own version of marriage. Their choice of sin is not my business.

    'or the few times homosexuality is mentioned in the bible are to be upheld but the other part of breaking vows and the quick fix abortion gets a nod?'

    As above, no breaking of vows is involved in the case of the innocent spouse, nor is contraception any form of abortion.

    And the Bible is clear that homosexuality is sin, not a valid lifestyle:
    1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Tain Bo said:
    'Do you know anyone that strictly adheres to the bible rules?'

    Many of us try and can be characterised as generally succeeding.

    'What about working on the Sabbath'

    Christians are divided on their understanding as to the continuance of that commandment. Some say it still applies but to the first day of the week since Christ was resurrected then); others like myself say it was part of the Old Covenant that was fulfilled and abolished by Christ. We then meet for worship on the first day, but do not hold it to be the Sabbath.

    'even though that goal post was shifted from the Jewish Saturday killing two birds with one stone the pagan Romans and Greeks gathering in temples on Sunday eventually converting to the one god a lot of things in the bible have pagan origins.'

    The reason for considering the Sabbath moved was theological, not cultural, for the early Church already met on the first day - even when the church was composed entirely of Jews. The later idea that the first day was now the Sabbath was not needed to accommodate pagans.

    The pagan accommodation was in the introduction of other 'holy' days - Christmas, etc. NT Christianity did not have holy days. Nor does the Bible promote any pagan ideas.

    'In truth the bible is basically a history of the Jews full of stories and myths'

    Not myths. History.

    'usurped by dissident Jews'

    Christ came in fulfilment of the Old Testament Scriptures, so 'usurped' does not describe it.

    'much like the dissident Catholics broke away on a large scale with the reformation another change and reworking of original books of Judaism so who is telling the truth as taking a crap 150 yards outside the city worked back then but no need for that law to be observed today.'

    The Reformation sought to return us to the Bible as authority, not man's tradition. Even in the OT, there were times of apostasy, followed by reformation.

    Yes, some laws were only for a particular people at a particular time - just as rules for kids change when they come of age.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Tain Bo said:
    'The reason I say it is a myth is the little discussed fact is that partition cut both ways while it is hailed as a victory for Protestants the Protestants in the 3 Ulster counties and the rest of the Free-State got the shaft by the Unionist in the north and were traded off in the dirty deal. If they were persecuted as the unionist claim they would have been in a UI then why did they not see the bright rosy future that a protestant north for a protestant people and all that was on offer in the empire. It was a case of tough shite for them as the union was more important than their religious freedoms; the same freedoms cited the Papists would deny them their rights. If that had been true then they had a safe haven and could easily uproot and take shelter in the north.'

    and many of them did uproot their ancestral roots and go north. I've personally know some. And I've known some who stayed south - and they did not give a glowing picture of their lot.

    As to the betrayal by their northern brethren - a fair division of the land meant some were going to be on the wrong side of the line, no matter where it was drawn. No betrayal involved, unless one says the Brits should have denied Home Rule to the 26 counties. That would have been an even greater injustice.

    'Why they didn’t uproot'

    Many did. That some counted the cost and choose to tough it out is understandable - but even some of them eventually came north.

    'is simple unlike the way the taigs were treated in the north they were not treated the same way no one kicked them off their hard earned land nor stripped them of their farms or jobs and homes'

    Where did these evictions occur? I'm aware that some employers gave preference to Prods, but that applied too in the South for Catholics.

    'and surprise they didn’t convert'

    Many did by stages - the Ne Temere saw to that!

    'and are still proud of their protestant heritage and no one could care if they have picture of the royal family in their homes.'

    Perhaps. But I don't see any Union Jacks flying, as tricolours do here.

    'In the long term they got the better deal'

    I've never heard that from them! They survived by surrendering their British identity and saying nothing when Catholicism was running the State.

    'even though their own brethren give them the shaft it looks like the Protestant Ulster for a Protestant people had no problem tossing them into the Free-State the reality being it was only for certain protestants those north eastern enough and in greater numbers.'

    As above - it would not be right for us to have the whole of Ireland, any more than it would be for the Catholic Irish to have it all.

    'Whilst the north was ripe with sectarianism the Protestants a few yards across the line escaped that stagnant distortion of religious hatred and were not poisoned by the nonsense.'

    Yes, they were conquered by their neighbours and had to be careful not to openly challenge the State, unlike the minority in the North. It was the majority in the South that manifested sectarian hatred toward their northern Protestant neighbours.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Tain Bo said:
    'I am not religious in my younger days I read up on the history of Catholicism and its control, brutality, the slaughters, corruption and deceit it is not difficult to see why the reformation came about changing the bible was sound enough but they fell into much the same ways and became as corrupt with power and just as vicious when it came to implementing their brand of Christianity.'

    Indeed - many failed to see it was not their role to enforce true religion. Thankfully, as the Scripture sank in to their minds more and more, a true NT theology of the State has emerged.

    'Today’s republicans in the north have evolved separately from Free-State influence the number of hard-line Catholics was never high and is even less now. I for one would not entertain entering into a UI if I believed a foreign country was going to dictate the pace with Catholicism that would be hypocritical as I oppose the foreign country dictating the pace in the north with the sectarian law protecting the royals and the Protestant throne.'

    Glad to hear it. I'm all for us Northern Irish determining our own rules. And I'm opposed to the link between the Crown and any religion.

    'You are happy to see the decline of the RCs in the Free State would you welcome the rise of Islam?'

    No - that would be an even greater threat to our freedom than 20thC Catholicism was. I would welcome the rise of NT Christianity, for it brings sinners to a holy and compassionate lifestyle. I'm glad to hear of many of my Irish neighbours in ROI becoming true believers in Christ.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Tain Bo said:
    'Many heathens like myself would like to see religion scrapped I don’t follow that school of thought as I believe people should be allowed to practice their religion unhindered but religions should stick to saving souls and leave the politics to the gangsters as mixing politics and religion is always volatile.'

    I agree. Paisley was a great example of that sad mix.

    'My point is why keep the Irish connection that’s the contradiction as Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland are the same the word north is a geographical position the word Ireland identifies a country just as Scotland, England, and Wales. Why didn’t the original planters break the connection drop the Irish and rename the gaff New Orange land drop the Ulster and the Red Hand holding onto those names and symbols is an acceptance of the culture you object to.'

    Yes, we could have - but it would be a bit pedantic. When states change, the geographical identification is a natural way of identifying them, and does not refer to their ethnic origins.

    'For example New South Wales, borders Victoria and Queensland robbing the natives by imposing new names on their turf.'

    Maybe the native names were too difficult? Or the invaders wanted to remind themselves of their origins? But many places still bear the native names in the USA and Australia.

    'Anyway I will believe the hype when the Irish Protestants come forth and tell the horrors they suffered under Papist rule after being shafted by the loyal brethren in the north'

    Read the Conclusion in this for a helpful analysis:
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/population/bowen83.htm

    ReplyDelete
  41. Tain Bo said:
    'My point exactly you convey what is crystal clear to the PUL supporting the contradiction loyal and separate as long as you don’t get the shaft which in honesty means there is no loyalty'

    So you would be loyal to a UI that decided to abandon your piece of it to, say, the UK? You would accept their right to force you into the foreign state?

    'but an unhealthy dose of religious and political ransoming as in political mercenaries’ trading your souls'

    As above - how can standing up for your rights be 'religious and political ransoming'?

    'literally holding the non-Protestant people hostage'

    Each unwilling minority - north and south - could claim that. But the reality demanded some would lose and some would win. Getting a state that was comfortable to the minorities was the big issue that both states failed to achieve.

    'as if the Government pisses the PUL off or if the sectarian law barring taigs from the was changed will the PUL march on England to restore their civil and religious liberties, no, they will attack the usual suspects as any change will be mutated as a taig conspiracy.'

    It's always going to be a judgement call on what is a conspiracy and what just is. Poor judgement usually favours a conspiracy view. But real threats can come up. For us PULs, we could not make the English change by force, but we could make sure the republicans here did not receive us bound hand and foot from the English. That's what the Home Rule Crisis was about.

    'The problem is times are a changing the bluff of Carson will not fly today back then the industrial north had value to the Brits.

    The Brits were trying to dump us! The theory that the Home Rule Bill was only a bluff is the real conspiracy theory nonsense.

    'the same Brits who shafted the north the pride of Belfast sank like the Titanic the massive industry that supported the shipyard axed but no worries you can always visit the museum and remember the grand old days of yore.'

    As above - the Brits were not interested in our prosperity.

    'Much like the needless over the top deaths of men at Somme the great industrial cities, mowed down and today NI is a drain but as long as we are British we can ignore the shafting and the only job security is within the security services. Wealthy Unionists will always shaft the working class loyalists just the same as working class Catholics get the shaft. It is always the same yarn who cares what misery the English inflict in the north they can depend on the vote and have no problem flogging how great it is to be in the union but don’t ask them to share the wealth.'

    They share 10 billion with us, no doubt unwillingly. But your UI will make us all more wealthy? No, I'm glad we have the measure of freedom and wealth we have in the UK - until a UI can offer as much or better, I'm not interested. Everything I have heard from Republicans - no matter how well-intentioned - seems a recipe for financial disaster at least, and probably libertarian disaster also.

    'I wondered who made the profit from the industrial north the merchants of London if you asked me Carson’s bluff shafted the north all that is left to be exploited is the same old vote not a bad trade for the English where the sun barely rises gone are the days of it never sets.'

    How exactly did the merchants of London profit from the partition of Ireland? Would they have had less if Ireland had remained in the UK?

    ReplyDelete
  42. Wolfesbane,
    What i mean by tyranny is treating us as second class citizens. Until the unionist community acknowledges their past behaviour was abhorrent how do we move on? The blame game gets us nowhere, accountability is imperative. We have to accept our peoples historical mistakes.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Wolfsbane,

    thanks for the link and responses I think we will be doing the tango on this one for a bit. I will digest what you said and return the serve.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Wolfsbane....

    If that was all your UI entailed, I would consider it. But since you have a very different idea of civil and religious liberty, I will not be tempted.

    I wouldn't infringe on anyones civil liberties. But I fail to see how religion liberates anyone. It does the opposite. You said..

    Because God opened my understanding to recognise His voice in the words of the Bible - and I believed and followed Him.

    Which God in the bible opened your understanding. The old testament makes reference to several gods. if you want the references I can put them up...

    Depends on your definition of Protestantism. If you take a snapshot of the Reformation beginning, you might be tempted to say as you do.

    Doesn't matter what part you look at.. It (Protestantism) is a bastardized version of Roman Catholicism, which is totally based on the Roman cult of Mithras with a side dish of Sol Invictus... Wolf what branch of Protestantism do you follow.. Anglianism, Baptists, 7th day-ers.. Presbyterian, Free Presbyterian, Lutheranism, Calvinism.....?

    But if you look at the theological arguments, it is clear that men were being called back to authentic Christianity, a Christianity stripped of the heretical and pagan baggage it gathered in the centuries after the New Testament revelation.

    Last point first.. You are aware that some of the gospels are being re-written today. What they found is parts of the gospel of Luke were changed and scientists & religious scolars in Cambridge Uni. are busy trying to find out what was exactly underneath..

    'The 176 leaves of Codex Zacynthius are made of vellum – treated animal hide. The surface of the vellum was first used in the 6th or 7th century when it was inscribed in Greek with the text of Luke 1:1–11:33 – a layer of writing now known to scholars as the ‘undertext’. In the 13th century this was partially scraped away and written over with the text of an Evangeliarium, a book composed of passages from the Four Gospels – this is the ‘overtext’.

    You've been reading too much of Dan Brown. Real Christianity was a fulfilment of the Old Testament witness; the religion of the God of Israel in its final and complete revelation.

    I've never read any of Dan Browns works and I haven't seen the 'The Da Vinci code' either. I did read 'The Holy blood & the Holy Grail' and the follow up called 'The Messanic legacy years before Dan wrote his book..

    It's debatable how much natural wealth Ireland has. One would need to make sure of all its resources and the likely standard of life it could maintain

    Wolf there billions of green backs of untapped oil & gas around Irish shores. More than enough to pay for education, health, giving everyone a proper standard of life, pay for welfare & OAP's...

    if one was considering such a move.And of course that the new elite would not be themselves in cahoots with the global elite.

    All you have to do is cap the wages... And if anyone broke the rules then they lose their job..

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  45. David Higgins said:
    'What i mean by tyranny is treating us as second class citizens.'

    OK - that discrimination was both immoral and foolish. It prevented Nationalists seeing how NI could be a great State for everyone. It was a reaction of fear, when courage was required.

    'Until the unionist community acknowledges their past behaviour was abhorrent how do we move on?'

    I think most unionists would agree that their government's treatment of Nationalists was abhorrent - though they would plead the Nationalist threat in mitigation.

    'The blame game gets us nowhere, accountability is imperative. We have to accept our peoples historical mistakes.'

    Absolutely! In their attempts to establish the rights of their own community, both our communities failed to consider the rights of the other. I think we can now both condemn and understand our fathers' errors in this. It is easier for us to see clearly with hindsight.

    Now we need to make sure our attitudes and actions are not also short-sighted, so that the next generation will not have to say the same things about us.

    ReplyDelete
  46. frankie said:

    'I wouldn't infringe on anyones civil liberties. But I fail to see how religion liberates anyone. It does the opposite.'

    It liberated me from a selfish life; from sexual immorality, drunkenness, and who knows what else would have come my way as a youth doing as he saw fit.

    'Which God in the bible opened your understanding. The old testament makes reference to several gods. if you want the references I can put them up...'

    There is only one God in the OT - but many false gods. Mankind worshipped idols and the sun and moon when they refused to worship the one true God. I'll be interested to see your references.

    'Doesn't matter what part you look at.. It (Protestantism) is a bastardized version of Roman Catholicism,'

    Nonsense.

    'which is totally based on the Roman cult of Mithras with a side dish of Sol Invictus...'

    Nonsense again. The original conspiracy nuttery dressed up in theological liberal clothes.

    'Wolf what branch of Protestantism do you follow.. Anglianism, Baptists, 7th day-ers.. Presbyterian, Free Presbyterian, Lutheranism, Calvinism.....?'

    I'm a Baptist, with Calvinist theology.

    '[But if you look at the theological arguments, it is clear that men were being called back to authentic Christianity, a Christianity stripped of the heretical and pagan baggage it gathered in the centuries after the New Testament revelation.]
    Last point first.. You are aware that some of the gospels are being re-written today.'

    I'm aware of a 13th century MS being looked at to find a more accurate reading of the underlying 7th century text. Nothing new here, as far as I can see. Certainly nothing to do with re-writing the gospels. The MS is just one (plus the underlying) copy of a piece of Luke's gospel. We have full copies of Luke's gospel from long before the 7th century.

    'What they found is parts of the gospel of Luke were changed and scientists & religious scolars in Cambridge Uni. are busy trying to find out what was exactly underneath..'

    What they found - actually it was found in 1861 - was a MS that had the original text scraped off so that another writing could be made. MS were expensive, so if you wanted to copy or write something more important to your needs, the temptation would be to use an existing MS to overwrite.

    'I've never read any of Dan Browns works and I haven't seen the 'The Da Vinci code' either. I did read 'The Holy blood & the Holy Grail' and the follow up called 'The Messanic legacy years before Dan wrote his book..'

    OK - I assumed you had the more modern version of the nonsense. Frankie, it's not scholarship - just conspiracy junk.

    'Wolf there billions of green backs of untapped oil & gas around Irish shores. More than enough to pay for education, health, giving everyone a proper standard of life, pay for welfare & OAP's...'

    I'm delighted to hear it, if it is so. It offers one way of maintaining our Western standard of living. A good selling point for a UI - if the liberties issues can be resolved.


    'All you have to do is cap the wages... And if anyone broke the rules then they lose their job..'

    Sounds fine - but we don't find it in operation anywhere in the world that I know of. Capitalist or Marxist - all have their elites who live in luxury while the masses live on a lot less. To date capitalism has produced the happier states for the common man.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Tain Bo said:
    'thanks for the link and responses I think we will be doing the tango on this one for a bit. I will digest what you said and return the serve.'

    Take your time, my friend. My apologies for posting so much - I don't mean to clog up the thread. It's good to understand one another better.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Wolfsbane...
    I'll do my best to stay with you.. Didn't God say go forth and mutiply? How do you expect to mutiply with out indulging in a bit of 'sexual immorality'..,? If you mean 'sexual immorality' by blowing a load every so often.. It's actually healthy to clean the pipes. Didn't Jesus save the best wine until the end...?

    Wolf in the frst book it mentions there are several gods and we (humans) were made in their likeness..Check it out..

    Genesis 1v 26..
    Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

    I'm not sure what version you have wolf but they ALL say the same.. And talk in plural... I'll also refernce things like dinosaurs and space ship's, ET's and a whole host of other funky stuff in the OT.. If you want me to show you thing in the NT, I'll have a field day.. You ought to read about Moses, he was just as blood thirsty as Momo and Herod..

    Christianity is based on Roman paganism.. Check it out. Mithras was born of a virgin, died and after three adays went to heaven years before Jesus..It's well documented. As for the side dish of Sol Invictus..Why do you think the Romans decided Jesus's birthday should be 25th Dec? My guess is because that's the feast day of 'Sol'..Another thing, Jesus (who there is very little if any historical proof he existed) was voted in as the son of god at the 2nd council of Nicea by the Romans. Why do you think it's called Roman Catholicism? Catholicism means basically universal. What the Romans did was simply unify all the different sects under one umbrella...

    The MS is just one (plus the underlying) copy of a piece of Luke's gospel. We have full copies of Luke's gospel from long before the 7th century.

    And when where they penned.. The gospels.. Deffo not when JC is meant to have walked the earth..

    What they found - actually it was found in 1861 - was a MS that had the original text scraped off so that another writing could be made.

    Thats what I said.. They found that the gospel had been doctored.. Kinda like the statements at both the Birmingham 6, Maguire 7 an Guilford 4 cases...(and countless others).. Why change something if it meant to be the word of God? At least the Taliban in their defense haven't changed the Qu'ran in over 1,000 yrs.. The bible gets an update every few centuries..

    OK - I assumed you had the more modern version of the nonsense. Frankie, it's not scholarship - just conspiracy junk.

    Bad move to assume.. I never said the books were scholarships. I said I'd simply read them..

    I'm delighted to hear it, if it is so. It offers one way of maintaining our Western standard of living. A good selling point for a UI - if the liberties issues can be resolved.

    So in a nutshell you can be bought for as little as a few barrels of un-refined crude oil??? The British tried to buy Republicans and they refused to sell their souls. There are several in Maghaberry at present who have refused the spooks offers and Brendan Hughes was offered more than a fist full of dollars and he said 'No thanks, I'll do my time..." Remember I wont infringe on your liberties. I'll simply ban religions...

    Sounds fine - but we don't find it in operation anywhere in the world that I know of. Capitalist or Marxist - all have their elites who live in luxury while the masses live on a lot less. To date capitalism has produced the happier states for the common man.

    I know next to nothing about Marxism and struggle everytime to get my head around Marx when someone pens a piece about the subject.. As for Capitalism.. If you want to think it has produced a better standard of living for the masses then look around..

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  49. Wolfsbane,

    thanks again, it is not clogging up the thread it is interesting and the view is clearer above the trenches and hearing what the ordinary folk say goes a lot further than what politicians say.
    You know the score here as sometimes a thread ends up with a few people batting back and forth and then runs its course.

    It is definitely nothing personnel even though the trench mentality would tell us different. I am almost finished with the long return serve.

    All the best

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  50. frankie said:
    'I'll do my best to stay with you.. Didn't God say go forth and mutiply? How do you expect to mutiply with out indulging in a bit of 'sexual immorality'..,?'

    By marrying a good woman and having sex with her. That usually results in multiplication.

    'If you mean 'sexual immorality' by blowing a load every so often.. It's actually healthy to clean the pipes. Didn't Jesus save the best wine until the end...?'

    All our sexual needs can be catered fro in a faithful married life:
    Proverbs 5:18 Let your fountain be blessed,
    And rejoice with the wife of your youth.
    19 As a loving deer and a graceful doe,
    Let her breasts satisfy you at all times;
    And always be enraptured with her love.
    20 For why should you, my son, be enraptured by an immoral woman,
    And be embraced in the arms of a seductress?

    'Wolf in the frst book it mentions there are several gods and we (humans) were made in their likeness..Check it out..
    I'm not sure what version you have wolf but they ALL say the same.. And talk in plural...'

    Yes - and the Bible also declares that God is One(Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!). Perfectly in line with the Bible's revelation that the One God exists in Three Persons - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

    'I'll also refernce things like dinosaurs'

    Yes, God created them too.

    'and space ship's, ET's and a whole host of other funky stuff in the OT..'

    Only in your mind. The only beings 'out there' are the angels, good and evil.

    'If you want me to show you thing in the NT, I'll have a field day..'

    I look forward to that!

    'You ought to read about Moses, he was just as blood thirsty as Momo and Herod..'

    Moses only killed those who needed killing. Nothing bloodthirsty about him.

    'Christianity is based on Roman paganism.. Check it out. Mithras was born of a virgin, died and after three adays went to heaven years before Jesus..It's well documented.'

    No, it's not:
    http://carm.org/christianity/bible/doesnt-religion-mithra-prove-christianity-false

    'As for the side dish of Sol Invictus..Why do you think the Romans decided Jesus's birthday should be 25th Dec? My guess is because that's the feast day of 'Sol'..'

    Could well be. Just shows you how paganism gradually took over the Roman church. You'll find nothing in the Bible to say December 25th was Jesus' birthday.

    'Another thing, Jesus (who there is very little if any historical proof he existed)'

    Nonsense - the NT itself is historical evidence. If you mean other than the NT, there is some (but little) written evidence. But why should we expect to find any? Christianity was not a big deal to the world in the first century.

    'was voted in as the son of god at the 2nd council of Nicea by the Romans.'

    The NT shows Him to be the Son of God. Nicaea - the FIRST council - recognised the fact and defended it against heresies.

    'Why do you think it's called Roman Catholicism?'

    It's called Roman because the church in Rome took authority to itself that God did not give - and the Papacy arose from that. When the Emperor 'converted' to Christianity, that just made matters worse, putting secular power at the disposal of the corrupt church leaders.

    'Catholicism means basically universal. What the Romans did was simply unify all the different sects under one umbrella...'

    That only came later. The Catholic Church existed a long time before Rome took control.

    ReplyDelete
  51. frankie said:
    '[The MS is just one (plus the underlying) copy of a piece of Luke's gospel. We have full copies of Luke's gospel from long before the 7th century.]
    And when where they penned.. The gospels.. Deffo not when JC is meant to have walked the earth..'

    No, but within a generation of His death and resurrection. Before AD70.

    '[What they found - actually it was found in 1861 - was a MS that had the original text scraped off so that another writing could be made.]
    Thats what I said.. They found that the gospel had been doctored..'

    You haven't read it properly: 'The surface of the vellum was first used in the 6th or 7th century when it was inscribed in Greek with the text of Luke 1:1–11:33 – a layer of writing now known to scholars as the ‘undertext’. In the 13th century this was partially scraped away and written over with the text of an Evangeliarium, a book composed of passages from the Four Gospels – this is the ‘overtext’'.

    Being 'doctored' would mean removing the text Luke 1:1–11:33 and writing a new version of it - one with the bits added or subtracted that suited your purpose. What we have here is simply erasing an unwanted text so that you have material on which to write other things. Like when one stored articles on a floppy disk, then on needing a disk but having only that one available, deciding the articles were not as important to keep and then overwriting with the new material.

    'Kinda like the statements at both the Birmingham 6, Maguire 7 an Guilford 4 cases...(and countless others).. Why change something if it meant to be the word of God?'

    As above - they weren't changing it - they were deleting it. They needed the space for the new material.

    At least the Taliban in their defense haven't changed the Qu'ran in over 1,000 yrs.. The bible gets an update every few centuries..'

    The Bible is a much older book than the Qu'ran - and the updates arise as we find more copies closer to the originals. Nothing that changes any doctrine - usually just minor points of word order, etc. And the Qu'ran has been amended a few times - I gather for the same reasons.

    ReplyDelete
  52. frankie said:
    'So in a nutshell you can be bought for as little as a few barrels of un-refined crude oil???'

    No, just that the British and Irish are relatively close in culture, and in the event of there being a reason to have a UI, economics would be a crucial part of that.

    'The British tried to buy Republicans and they refused to sell their souls. There are several in Maghaberry at present who have refused the spooks offers and Brendan Hughes was offered more than a fist full of dollars and he said 'No thanks, I'll do my time..."'

    If you were trying to bribe me into a UI, that would be a different matter. Money could not compensate for my identity and liberties.

    'Remember I wont infringe on your liberties. I'll simply ban religions...'

    That' my biggest liberty!

    'As for Capitalism.. If you want to think it has produced a better standard of living for the masses then look around..'

    I do look around - compared to what I see from the non-capitalist regimes, we are in paradise! Have you some non-capitalist country in mind as an example to emulate?

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  53. Wolfsbane,

    I am not sure of the order bouncing between the computer and the everyday things don’t mix so well.

    Anyway grab a cuppa and I hope you can wade through this without falling asleep.

    Keep in mind it is my choice not to be religious but I don’t have a problem with people practicing their beliefs as the in name only deliver a black eye on religion, not that Christians don’t encourage it but they should weed out the ungodly from their midst.

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  54. Wolfsbane,

    It is hardly a republican error as it would be impossible to ignore the English big stick of course they were going to allow a militia to form without it there would be no checkmate blocking an Independent Ireland.

    I doubt they would have permitted much more than the threat with the understanding that greater problems were looming in the world of kings and castles.
    Not a bad move the English dander up to the Irish exchange the pleasantries’ of formality and then say in double speak we want to leave but here is the problem in that polite English manner explaining they are expecting at bit of bother on the western front and their predicament would mean all their resources might be tied up and that jolly old tradition of defending their castle.

    Unfortunately chaps we understand the dissident unionists have procured large amounts of weapons and munitions we believe their ranks number in the tens of thousands and are not going to go gently into the night on this Irish independence. Regretfully we might be in no position to quail the threat against you.

    We don’t see a peaceful resolution to this problem as they are not a motley crew but hold in their ranks many former British army officers and enlisted men so we believe they are capable of standing up to us though as explained we might be tied up for a bit which unfortunately would leave you alone to face the wrath.

    My esteemed political collogues took the liberty of finding an agreeable solution to what is essentially now both our countries problem. We would like you to consider our short term solution and see if you and your finest minds may find agreement with our proposal thusly avoid any nasty business of a war with these rebellious unionists.

    The English are rarely narrow in understanding the long term and take advantage and manipulate the weaknesses and strengths of those under their rule. That carrot of a UI is still dangling in front of us the Brits will distract and delay that outcome.

    One reason the Brits plan of playing of agitator and peacemaker worked in their advantage is they decide when unionists are good tenants or not so good. The notion that the Brits paw prints were not all over the supposed conspiracy is hard to avoid. Start a threat of rebellion in the north and politely use this threat to intimidate the other side.

    The Brits give full credit to the Unionist for the plot that way if it backfired and war broke out in the eyes of the world the Brits would be seen as sleeping at the wheel. They would probably have been the position of defending the people the UVF were planning to start a war with if not other countries would have an open door to come to the aid of Ireland.

    The vision within the plot is not present the only way that war would be won is with the heavy artillery of the BA which would mean the potential for a wider conflict would be on the cards and we can be assured the Brits were not about to have another war in Ireland.

    I don’t see it as character assassination were they a military disciplined machine, definitely yet they were never battled tested so would they have been an potent fighting force we shall never know. I wasn’t saying incapable I just don’t buy into it. The Brits were in control the unionists as usual a tool in their arsenal to be used at their disposal. It is easy to muster a militia when there is no opposing army and no military threat facing them apart from the one made up.

    If as you believe it was more than a bluff then the outcome would have been a UI to the world the Irish would have been the victims of an assault on democracy as the British would have no excuse as to why they allowed a religious based unprovoked war to take place.

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  55. Wolfsbane,

    There is no irony, hypocrisy, or contradiction? Buying German weapons was acceptable as that was part of the plan to only kill natives in some twisted belief that this would give unionists the right to remain British and end up going off to be mowed down by the Germans, you could say the poor Ulster folk paid for some bullets or bombs that killed are maimed them.

    I don’t see it fighting for a royal beef only fools and horses would fall for that and the horses had no choice.

    I think Christianity was clearly there as much as it was present in the next war just as clear was other religion’s Adolf expressed his hatred of the Jews on his side and in a sense blamed them for the defeat.

    The Armistice well we are still paying for that today old world policy divvy up the spoils instead of saying okay you got stuffed now pack it in and go home.

    It was a catch phrase dulls it down to almost innocuous as the non-Protestants would be in no position to argue for their share of human rights but as long as those of British mindset were doing well why worry about equality.

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  56. Wolfsbane,

    So essentially it is okay to tell people they need to accept some bloke called Jesus as lord and redeemer but it is equally okay to bend the rules or break them depending on circumstance and era.

    That still doesn’t answer why go forth and multiply is replaced with sorry god we are choosing to ignore you there and we shall multiply on our terms not the law of your terms.

    God hates covenant breakers doesn’t answer how one reconciles with breaking the vow to god. Many divorces both parties are at fault.

    Granted it is not abortion it’s a handy way of having fun but is still the same principle of aborting life there is little difference in preventing life and aborting life. It still flies in the face of not being fruitful and multiplying which doesn’t mean there is a limit. It also encourages and helps out with adultery which leads to more sin.

    The old laws make no sense in the modern world and that is a big problem for religion no matter how they try and shape the view it always ends up altering the original. If it doesn’t fit then make it fit how much has the Christian narrative(s) changed.

    Would the decline of Christian faith north and south be simply as people are weary of the hypocrisy along with the morality police and the control and in the north just fed up to the hilt with the sectarianism that always overrides commonsense forcing one against the other. Shouldn’t the faithful unite and mend fences?

    Religions are always on the tap and more interested in saving people’s money than their souls.

    The faiths from day one end up oppressing people, losing control is a greater concern than spreading the word and that in itself is constant battle with what is the true way and which altered version is the one and only.

    That verse pretty much nails most of mankind in one way or the other the kingdom might have plenty of free seats.

    So what makes your version true as opposed to all the other versions that are in agreement?

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  57. Wolfsbane,

    I don’t think religion has much say on the Sabbath making coin put an end to that and of course religion doesn’t mind as it is part of making coin. So god worked his nuts off making everything in 6 days, knackered he rested on the 7th and ungrateful Christian give that their say again defying the book.
    So the junk that doesn’t work today is mothballed.

    God must be going nuts or is his twin brother the NT god more understanding as today’s world would make Sodom and Gomorrah look like a convent.

    Even though you say the NT does not promote pagan idea’s doesn’t mean much considering pagan’s were around and doing the worshiping bit that eventually was watered down to the idea of one god there is no difference in early people worshiping and the more established religions worshiping as it is the same principle which makes sense as people and cities grew having many temples for different deities was expensive so building one temple for one god left a bit a change over for a party.

    Indeed, myths and stories not unlike any culture the art of storytelling is dying off today’s people have other amusing distractions to pass the time, the telly, records, the internet.

    The legend of King Arthur is a great read is there bits of truth in it, yes, but Merlin a wizard mythical but like Moses he possessed super-natural-powers.

    I admit the tale of Moses is grand but what parent would put their helpless infant in a make-shift basket boat and leave him to chance, helpless, naturally people would worry about an infant surrounded by wild animals?

    Rescued and then it gets better as he ends up being adopted by a very benevolent royal family, talk about gifted. The same murderous royal family that ordered all male Hebrew infants drowned in the same river. You would think Pharaoh would have twigged on since I imagine he would assume oh this one must have lived and said toss him back in the river.
    What are the odds that a royal linage would get all mushy and break the blood line with an outsider. Why does god always seem to hatch these elaborate stories the simple answer he didn’t man did.
    Gripping, he is abandoned as an infant grows up royal murders a slave master go’s on the run, talk’s with a burning bush, gets his directives and heads back to Egypt with his brother his brother? What a twist all because he said he couldn’t speak with authority. God says no bother here’s your brother now on yer bike and do my bidding.

    Moses goes back gives it the god bit, 10 plagues later Pharaoh says alright get out a here by the way to show no hard feelings you and the slaves can take riches, arms, and provisions.
    Off they go dandering, Pharaoh loses the bap makes it more suspenseful as Moses just dandering off to the Promised Land hasn’t got the same ring.

    Moses uses his magic stick parts the sea and magically the sea wipes out the evil Egyptians not unlike King Arthur uses his magical sword Excalibur to banish the evil darkness. Poor old Moses as in mythical old ends up after all that biting the dust never entering the Promised Land.

    ...

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  58. ...

    Back in the day the Hebrews seemed to have a fixation with infanticide and a god allowed this entire lark.
    The OT is a scary book but that is what it was intended to be literally to put the fear of a god into people.
    Good PR makes the NT god less of a maniac just like the new PR Pope.

    The more believable parts of that history is its military conquests though as with that embellishment is present Jericho and its walls falling has a ring of truth as an earlier earthquake sounds more likely than dandering about blowing trumpets. But, scribes and writers have wild imaginations who would want to stand against an army that had trumpet power and could knock down walls, with high tech military musical instruments.

    David and Goliath mostly believable as people then were a wee bit shorter than average but not immune from a gene that cause gigantism today we don’t call them giants. Makes for great propaganda and of course having a great god to back you up helps but odd enough when the Romans came god was sleeping but that can be explained away as god was usually in a bad mood and decided to let the Romans teach his people a leasson.

    I don’t see how using the NT escapes the OT if the OT is put aside so that the NT can usurp the old god then that would mean the OT is wrong, how can the all knowing creator be wrong? And what of the other scriptures that were sidelined to fit mans idea will the OT end up years from now as excluded from teaching.

    High profile dissident Jews of the bible John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth before we changed his name to Jesus of Christ both meet violent ends one is hailed as a Christian martyr and the other the true son of god the truth is they were no more Christian than I am Jewish.
    The Baptist gets reduced to the margins even though he had an established following the big lad from Nazareth hears about this nomad desert dweller and his followers and the ritual of dunking people in the water to purify them.
    Let’s just look at Jesus of N as purely human and a wise man with above average intelligence and sees this other dissident as a rival, scratches his noggin a bit and thinks okay I will go visit this man and win him over with humbleness let him dip me in the water and hey presto he wins the Baptist and his followers over.
    The story sounds reasonable but the Baptist and the Nazarene would have been to separate cults and rivals just as RCs and Reformers.

    Certainly the narratives change and change from dissident Jews to a separate cult to Christians then to Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics then Protestants and all the rest of the numerous factions of Christianly which in turn all cancel each other out.

    It is like going to the religion shop and trying to decide what chocolate biscuits are the best, better to stick with the plain ones.

    Myths and stories more often than not change and expand through generations.

    Do I believe that a fairy named Aillen a fire breathing fairy no less for 20 odd years would go to Tara and play sweet music to conk out the men and then torch the place probably not but it is fantastic reading.
    Is it more likely that fires and wooden buildings along with drunkenness may have burnt the gaff down or other clans did but for legends that would not be much of a story.

    ...

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  59. ...

    The bible is subject to the same scrutiny it is full of magical things and special gifts and powers. Moses was probably an Egyptian Prince not a content one as he probably like all princes wanted to be king, the One God idea was probably in practice at the time and the times plagues were not much more than economic hard times in the land so the natives probably blamed it on the one god and Moses seen the opportunity to become a leader in his own rights rebelled and sided with the Hebrews and off they went to find a new land.

    The parting of the red sea was probably just a metaphor turned myth I doubt the economic hard times in Egypt sent an army after them but were glad to see the back of them as the rulers would have enough problems keeping their own subjects in order sending an army out would leave the city open for rebellion.

    Writers take liberties in artistic freedoms and the picture they paint in one language is subject to a new language and translation. It is not much different than having 100 people in a room and whispering a few lines to the 1st person by the time it reaches the last the message is usually completely different.

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  60. Wolfsbane,

    I see no evidence of a just and merciful god or of a god at all in fact religion is good for holding back progress. Christians are factional and far from united. If the great religious minds cannot agree on the holy books and which version is the one true god then Christians need to accept the responsibility for their own decline.

    Old world thinking belongs in the past Catholic States, Protestant States are residuals of Kings, Castles, and Popes. Religions in a democracy should hold their rightful place saving souls is any religion going to change the ungodly ways of politician’s worldwide?

    Hardly a case of pedantic more of the usual eradication of the local’s ways there is a well established proud list of British slaughter and what would be now classed as war crimes.
    The names were too difficult but not anywhere near as difficult as Welsh names. My point was why hold on to some Irish and want to rid the north of anything Irish. The Red Hand Commandos nothing protestant about that or the pagan red hand why hold onto pagan symbols

    My point was the original planters were giving land that was not theirs and the rights of the locals were tossed aside and only fair a wee bit better today. No matter what evidence there is the Protestants in the Free-State got the better deal the non-protestants in the north didn’t receive the same. Then again it is the labels that cause the problems as the in-name-only Protestants and Catholics don’t deserve the same consideration as the smaller number of practicing people.

    Even today that is the same as Protestants worry about a Catholic majority when we weed out the believers’ and do the calculation minus the sectarian division we won’t find true faithful high numbers.
    But that is the problem with religions they count the heathens in their flock cooking the books is more important than admitting their true number.

    I am sure the Vatican has a copy of my papers as I unknowingly joined their gang shortly after my birth and still count me as one of the faithful not because I am but simply because they like to boast about their number.

    The reality the world has changed literacy gives people the choice of learning and forming their own beliefs about the world and as religions keep dividing eventually they will return to being small cults.
    How are they going to sort out this magic box the computer where straying to the evil side is a click away but that is minor in the technology age the passive computer will have greater impact on people than religion.

    The rise of nanotechnologies’ will be an interesting time with self-replicating micro machines unlike the old world religions holding back progress that will not be on the cards today or in the future.
    And what if the day arrives when man succeeds in replicating and creating a new form of ungodly humans the concept of god creating man will be at question and I am not talking about Dr. Frankenstein’s monster.
    It would seem the future will hold greater problems than Catholics and Protestants it is already on the march. There are and will be benefits’ but ultimately it will be about power and control.

    I don’t see much of a future for god as chances are a new age god will be created.

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  61. Wolfsbane,

    I wouldn’t be loyal to a UI based in religion I would settle the issue of reclaiming 3 counties first that way the north has a bigger stick in any say in a UI.
    Considering many of us in the north don’t take too kindly to a Brit government why would we lower the standard for an Irish one? For a pope not a bloody chance that would be tossing away and rights gained a united north would hold great sway.

    I doubt we would be that foolish and the British way of life wouldn’t fade away removing an invisible line doesn’t mean removing a peoples way of life.

    Why do you believe republicans will force you into a UI the way things are today it would seem that British democracy might be the culprit but that is not a guarantee for the north as people could decide not on religious or republican grounds but simply on what is on offer so it could be a case of northern non- Protestants holding the fort down to remain in the union.

    That magical number they share with us is that minus the tax paid to them?
    Do you believe the robber banks of London didn’t make a profit from the north? I don’t think it was out of love or generosity they invested in the north based in a financial return.
    Nowadays that return is not so great when you are poor and caught in the poverty trap politics and religions don’t do much for you.

    Why if the Brits had no interest in your prosperity would you want to keep their bank healthy? It would seem the Brits play the unionist fiddle and not the other way round they can rely upon sectarians and continue to play that old handy card of bluff using the PUL who in turn will use the loyalist’ card and pit the poor against the poor.

    Do you believe that British intelligence knew nothing about the large arms shipments from Libya? It might have been another quiet coup of a great bluff letting large amounts in. It is suspicious at best as to why the now heavily armed IRA didn’t put them to use.
    Another bluff the Brits had nothing to lose as the military stomach for an all out war was not there. Good move, the Free-State was holding large amounts of weapons to be used against Ulster.
    The Brits have a yarn with the IRA if you decide to go to war we welcome that as we will have no choice but to bomb the not so secret arms dumps and our forces will enter into the Free-State and cut off your supply lines and then politely crush you with our far superior force.

    To use or not to use that was never the question but it was a great big stick they give the IRA and as usual beat them over the head with it. Tally ho old chaps onward to our table and we will let you play in Stormont.
    That would be enough to make the Free-State government push for peace, seriously what could they do to stand up to the Brits who would have a legal right to bomb and invade them.
    That would be a justified reason BA going after IRA terrorist weapons no real way out of that for all involved but the Brits way.
    Anyways religion is not going anywhere soon it would seem the newer threat to a British way of life is coming from other religious extremists. Sounds like the same old story another chapter in the god wars.

    Sorry about the long winded bit but as Dave Allen used to say:

    May you god go with you

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  62. Wolfsbane,

    “Considering many of us in the north don’t take too kindly to a Brit government why would we lower the standard for an Irish one? For a pope not a bloody chance that would be tossing away and rights gained a united north would hold great sway.”

    Sorry, should read for a pope not a bloody chance that would be tossing away any rights gained, a united north would hold great sway.

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  63. Wolfsbane "
    All our sexual needs can be catered fro in a faithful married life*** Proverbs 20: For why should you, my son, be enraptured by an immoral woman, And be embraced in the arms of a seductress?
    '

    ***I'm sure they can but they do say variety is the spice of life, a change is as good as a holiday. I could give several reasons personally Wolf but I think they'd be to sexually explicit to print. When do you think God made T-Rex and his friends? Before or after he made Adam & Eve? As for Moses.. whats this all about "Moses only killed those who needed killing. Nothing bloodthirsty about him.?" Moses told 'The chosen people' to go and kill those who didn't listen to what he said kill only the men and to take as many women as you want and do what ever you want with them..

    I never said Jesus was born on the 25th Dec. What I said was thats the day the Romans decided to mark his alleged birth. Personally I reckon if he was born, his B'day would be sometime around the first week in September. I was under the impression that the papacy arose from Jesus saying to Peter 'Upon this rock I will build my church' (or words to that effect). Peter properly translated means 'hardman' (meaning he was JC's bodygaurd.) . Whats this about The Catholic Church existed a long time before Rome took control.. There was no Catholic church before the Romans decided. Before then all you had is different sects and groups of Christians who all had slight variants of each other..

    Being 'doctored' would mean removing the text Luke 1:1–11:33 and writing a new version of it - one with the bits added or subtracted that suited your purpose.

    We understood each other...

    What we have here is simply erasing an unwanted text so that you have material on which to write other things..

    That's what I said 'doctored'. If it was the word of God why the need to re-write anything?

    As above - they weren't changing it - they were deleting it. They needed the space for the new material..

    So someone decided to delete parts of the Gospel of Luke to write over what was already there and you are expecting me to believe nothing was changed?

    I know the bible was put together before the Qu'ran was wrote. Why wont the bible include 'The book of Enoch, The Gospels of Thomas & Mary and a host of other works?' Why not add the Dead sea scrolls. After all they were all penned in and around the same time an basically talk about the same subject matter.

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  64. No, just that the British and Irish are relatively close in culture ,

    Explain how they are?

    and in the event of there being a reason to have a UI, economics would be a crucial part of that.

    What would happen right off the bat if/when Ireland is united is all the duplicity in policing, civil service, education, health and a score of other government depts would stop, saving millions of green backs. For an island the size of Ireland doubling up' on essential services, having different tax systems, different colours of green backs, is stupid beyond belief.

    If you were trying to bribe me into a UI, that would be a different matter. Money could not compensate for my identity and liberties.

    But you said earlier Wolf if Ireland was united and the natural resources got put to good use, so all of the people benefit from it, you would deffo consider. You drew the line at me changing all places of worship into centres of education, creche's etc. Now if you want to invite friends to you house and get a jam session going singing Hank William's, be my guest.


    I do look around - compared to what I see from the non-capitalist regimes, we are in paradise!

    I thought Christians believe paradise was on the otherside. And if whats happening today is a Christian view of paradise then you can keep your version and I'll stick to my version. I think when Grouch gets is independent state set up. It'll be fairly close to a non capitalist sate we could 'emulate.'

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  65. Tain Bo said:
    'It is hardly a republican error as it would be impossible to ignore the English big stick of course they were going to allow a militia to form without it there would be no checkmate blocking an Independent Ireland.'

    Doesn't make the Unionist threat any less real. You say the Brits were not serious about being willing to let Ireland g;, we say they were (and are). But in any event, our fathers were prepared to fight both Britain and Ireland for their right to self-determination.

    'I doubt they would have permitted much more than the threat with the understanding that greater problems were looming in the world of kings and castles...
    The notion that the Brits paw prints were not all over the supposed conspiracy is hard to avoid. Start a threat of rebellion in the north and politely use this threat to intimidate the other side...we can be assured the Brits were not about to have another war in Ireland.

    So the Brits were not going to put down either the Unionists or Nationalists??? Perhaps - but again, my fathers were not bluffing, as I'm sure yours were not either.

    'I don’t see it as character assassination were they a military disciplined machine, definitely yet they were never battled tested so would they have been an potent fighting force we shall never know.'

    True - but it doesn't take battle-hardened troops to fight a civil war. The war produces the hardening; the willingness to lose one's life in defence of the nation - that's all that is needed to start the war.

    'I wasn’t saying incapable I just don’t buy into it. The Brits were in control the unionists as usual a tool in their arsenal to be used at their disposal. It is easy to muster a militia when there is no opposing army and no military threat facing them apart from the one made up.'

    We did not see the threat as fictional. We heard the threats from the Nationalist to force Home Rule down our throats.

    'If as you believe it was more than a bluff then the outcome would have been a UI.

    Possibly. The outcome of a civil war has its uncertainties.

    'to the world the Irish would have been the victims of an assault on democracy'

    Other countries would have been nervous about their own ethnic problems, I suspect. Yes, Irish America would have been sending men and material to put down Ulster resistance, no doubt - but Protestant America would have been somewhat aroused if that occurred. So who knows the outcome?

    'as the British would have no excuse as to why they allowed a religious based unprovoked war to take place.'

    The British would have washed their hands of the 'Irish' - saying they did their best but the 'Irish' must sort it out for themselves. "All dreadfully regrettable of course, but that's the price of nationalism, etc."

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  66. Tain Bo said:

    'There is no irony, hypocrisy, or contradiction? Buying German weapons was acceptable as that was part of the plan to only kill natives in some twisted belief that this would give unionists the right to remain British and end up going off to be mowed down by the Germans, you could say the poor Ulster folk paid for some bullets or bombs that killed are maimed them.'

    In war one takes what is needed from wherever. The West and the Soviets saw no problem with that in WWII.

    'I don’t see it fighting for a royal beef only fools and horses would fall for that and the horses had no choice.'

    We were fighting for OUR rights, as a German victory would have been disastrous for the rest of mankind. The 'King' was only the figurehead of the 'Country'.

    'I think Christianity was clearly there as much as it was present in the next war just as clear was other religion’s Adolf expressed his hatred of the Jews on his side and in a sense blamed them for the defeat.'

    State religion was 'Christian' to be sure in WWI. But most of the churches involved were long-gone on their abandonment of true Christianity. And Hitler's religion was not Christianity at all. He used it where he could, and suppressed it where it would not co-operate. Corrupt Christianity was pliable, but even then many in its midst would not betray their Saviour by obeying the Nazi's plan for mankind.

    'The Armistice well we are still paying for that today old world policy divvy up the spoils instead of saying okay you got stuffed now pack it in and go home.'

    Yes, I agree. Not that it might have been that clear to the people back then who had suffered so much.

    'It was a catch phrase dulls it down to almost innocuous as the non-Protestants would be in no position to argue for their share of human rights but as long as those of British mindset were doing well why worry about equality.'

    Yes, the latter mid-set did set in, but it was not inevitable. A wiser and better morality could have made the effort to win the hearts of the disaffected minority in the North. But both North and South looked to their own majority only.

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  67. Tain Bo said:
    'So essentially it is okay to tell people they need to accept some bloke called Jesus as lord and redeemer but it is equally okay to bend the rules or break them depending on circumstance and era.'

    No. No bending or breaking allowed. But God can change the rules. He did so when He sent His Son to fulfil and abolish the Old Covenant and replace it with the New Covenant.

    The relationship of the people under each is compared to that of childhood and maturity:
    Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator...
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

    'That still doesn’t answer why go forth and multiply is replaced with sorry god we are choosing to ignore you there and we shall multiply on our terms not the law of your terms.'

    You mistake the command that was given. It did not say, 'Multiply to the maximum'. Nor did it oblige all who came after Adam & Eve to marry and have kids. It was specific to them and general to their descendants - and never to maximising possible births.

    'God hates covenant breakers doesn’t answer how one reconciles with breaking the vow to god. Many divorces both parties are at fault.'

    Marriage vows are to one another, not to God. We vow to be faithful to our spouse, and if we break that vow God will hold us accountable. The innocent party is breaking no vow if they divorce the guilty party (who has already broken the covenant).

    'Granted it is not abortion it’s a handy way of having fun but is still the same principle of aborting life there is little difference in preventing life and aborting life.'

    A celibate man or woman is not guilty of murdering anyone. Sure, they could have had lots of kids, who now will not exist - but there is no relationship at all to killing an existing life in the womb or out of it.

    'It still flies in the face of not being fruitful and multiplying which doesn’t mean there is a limit.'

    So you hold that married couples must have sex as often as possible, otherwise they are disobeying the command to multiply? And single people are disobeying as long as they remain single?

    'It also encourages and helps out with adultery which leads to more sin.'

    Contraception can indeed help the adulterer avoid unwanted consequences. So too can many other lawful things - cars, phones, hotels.

    'The old laws make no sense in the modern world and that is a big problem for religion no matter how they try and shape the view it always ends up altering the original.'

    Yes, the old laws in any religion or ideology can annoy the modern person. If it is because they were faulty to begin with, then it's right to let them go. Or if God has set out a new path, then too they should be discarded. But it may be the modern person is just to perverse to like good laws.

    'If it doesn’t fit then make it fit how much has the Christian narrative(s) changed.'

    The Bible is the only valid Christian law. Any narratives that were derived from it are open to question - how true are they to the Biblical model? We must cast off any tradition, no matter how venerable, that fails the scrutiny of Scripture.

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  68. Tain Bo said:
    'Would the decline of Christian faith north and south be simply as people are weary of the hypocrisy'

    Yes, that has been a big cause for folk rejecting the faith of their fathers. Hypocritical leaders.

    'along with the morality police and the control'

    Thought those days were over in the South?

    'and in the north just fed up to the hilt with the sectarianism that always overrides commonsense forcing one against the other.'

    The dominant religion in a UI would be a big part of our objection to it, for it has shown itself intolerant wherever it has power.

    'Shouldn’t the faithful unite and mend fences?'

    No. Both should respect the right of the other to exist in freedom, but it is foolish to say they are essentially the one. We ought to be able to tolerate real differences.

    'Religions are always on the tap and more interested in saving people’s money than their souls.'

    Yes, many are run by 'gospel pedlars', leaders in it for the wealth or power. But that does not mean there are no altruistic religions or sincere believers.

    'The faiths from day one end up oppressing people,'

    Some faiths are essentially oppressive (Islam for one); others have been corrupted from their original purity to become oppressive.

    'losing control is a greater concern than spreading the word'

    Indeed - false Christianity is interested in its supremacy, not it God's.

    'and that in itself is constant battle with what is the true way and which altered version is the one and only.'

    Yes again - but that has always been the case and was foretold by Christ and all the prophets, eg:

    Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


    'That verse pretty much nails most of mankind in one way or the other the kingdom might have plenty of free seats.'

    Yes, ALL mankind is guilty before God - and only those who obey Him by repenting of their sin and trusting in Christ will be saved.
    Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    'So what makes your version true as opposed to all the other versions that are in agreement?'

    My version of religion is true because it is the one received from God. Other religions may claim the same, but only one can be true. Your question might have meant how do I know mine is true - in that case my answer is that God revealed it to me when I heard His word. Why do I think I was not self-deluded? Because I have found God active and faithful throughout my life.

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  69. Tain Bo said:
    'I don’t think religion has much say on the Sabbath making coin put an end to that and of course religion doesn’t mind as it is part of making coin.'

    Yes, Mammon is often the cause of abandoning religious laws. But you will find many who do not wish to work on Sunday who nevertheless say it is not the Sabbath.

    'So god worked his nuts off making everything in 6 days, knackered he rested on the 7th and ungrateful Christian give that their say again defying the book.
    So the junk that doesn’t work today is mothballed.'

    The Sabbath - in the minds of many Christians - was abolished when Christ fulfilled and abolished the Old Covenant. Christ is our Rest.

    'God must be going nuts or is his twin brother the NT god more understanding as today’s world would make Sodom and Gomorrah look like a convent.'

    The God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT. And He has appointed a Day in which He will judge this evil world.

    'Even though you say the NT does not promote pagan idea’s doesn’t mean much considering pagan’s were around and doing the worshiping bit that eventually was watered down to the idea of one god there is no difference in early people worshiping and the more established religions worshiping as it is the same principle which makes sense as people and cities grew having many temples for different deities was expensive so building one temple for one god left a bit a change over for a party.'

    That's you supposition. It could be true, if we had not God's word against it. God came first - then pagan gods were invented by man in his hostility to the real God.

    What caused the rise of monotheism as seen in Judaism, Christianity and Islam? The same basic source - God's revelation to the patriarchs and Israel. Christianity is a fulfilment of the religion of the Jews; Islam is a rip-off of both.

    But polytheism is alive and well in a lot of the world. Economics does not seem to be a big part of it.

    'Indeed, myths and stories not unlike any culture the art of storytelling is dying off today’s people have other amusing distractions to pass the time, the telly, records, the internet.'

    Yes, and good-riddance to all the rubbish. But the gospel of Christ will never fail - it has His power behind it.

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  70. Tain Bo said:
    'The legend of King Arthur is a great read is there bits of truth in it, yes, but Merlin a wizard mythical but like Moses he possessed super-natural-powers.
    I admit the tale of Moses is grand but what parent would put their helpless infant in a make-shift basket boat and leave him to chance, helpless, naturally people would worry about an infant surrounded by wild animals?'

    Seems a reasonable plan to me, better than letting the Egyptians murder him.

    'Rescued and then it gets better as he ends up being adopted by a very benevolent royal family, talk about gifted. The same murderous royal family that ordered all male Hebrew infants drowned in the same river. You would think Pharaoh would have twigged on since I imagine he would assume oh this one must have lived and said toss him back in the river.'

    It was Pharaoh's daughter who came on the child - God touched her heart to have compassion on it.

    'What are the odds that a royal linage would get all mushy and break the blood line with an outsider.'

    Adoption was a part of ancient life too. And would Moses have been made Pharaoh - I doubt the line ran from male to female. No, Moses honour was being called 'the son of Pharaoh's daughter', a prince in Egypt, not Pharaoh-in-waiting.

    'Why does god always seem to hatch these elaborate stories the simple answer he didn’t man did.'

    God does it His way - your assertion that it was made up by man is just that, a mere assertion. Either of our stories could be true if we had no other knowledge - but I rely on the revelation God has given me.

    'Gripping, he is abandoned as an infant grows up royal murders a slave master go’s on the run, talk’s with a burning bush, gets his directives and heads back to Egypt with his brother his brother? What a twist all because he said he couldn’t speak with authority. God says no bother here’s your brother now on yer bike and do my bidding.'

    A made-up tale could have been much simpler. The truth is often more complex.

    'Moses goes back gives it the god bit, 10 plagues later Pharaoh says alright get out a here by the way to show no hard feelings you and the slaves can take riches, arms, and provisions.'

    Fear and awe, not good-will, caused the Egyptians to give up their possessions.

    'Off they go dandering, Pharaoh loses the bap makes it more suspenseful as Moses just dandering off to the Promised Land hasn’t got the same ring.'

    Yes, truth is often messy.

    'Moses uses his magic stick parts the sea and magically the sea wipes out the evil Egyptians not unlike King Arthur uses his magical sword Excalibur to banish the evil darkness. Poor old Moses as in mythical old ends up after all that biting the dust never entering the Promised Land.'

    Indeed - the truth is Moses publicly failed to honour God in one of the confrontations with the people, and God denied him entrance to the Land because of it. God uses public example to warn others against sin.

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  71. Tain Bo said::

    'Back in the day the Hebrews seemed to have a fixation with infanticide and a god allowed this entire lark.
    The OT is a scary book but that is what it was intended to be literally to put the fear of a god into people.'

    Yes, it was intended to put the fear of God into people - and cause them to repent and be reconciled to God.

    'Good PR makes the NT god less of a maniac just like the new PR Pope.'

    The extermination of the wicked nations by Israel was morally valid - for all creation is His. He chooses where and when they die. And He commanded the Israelites to utterly destroy these evil nations, because of their long history of great sins.

    'The more believable parts of that history is its military conquests though as with that embellishment is present Jericho and its walls falling has a ring of truth as an earlier earthquake sounds more likely than dandering about blowing trumpets. But, scribes and writers have wild imaginations who would want to stand against an army that had trumpet power and could knock down walls, with high tech military musical instruments.
    David and Goliath mostly believable as people then were a wee bit shorter than average but not immune from a gene that cause gigantism today we don’t call them giants. Makes for great propaganda and of course having a great god to back you up helps'

    OR - it actually was as recorded. There are worlds of possibilities for all of history - the modern conspiracy theories work on the same level. Liberal scholars denied much of the OT history, included the existence of Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David ,etc. All was moved to stories made up at or after the Exile. Then archaeology exposed the truth about Israel's existence long before the Exile. Bit by bit the history of the OT is being confirmed.

    I doubt we will ever get physical proof of Abraham or Moses, but if the history that speaks of King Hezekiah is vindicated, then we can have non-religious grounds for regarding the other parts of that history as more likely to be true also. And believers like me already have God's assurance.

    'but odd enough when the Romans came god was sleeping but that can be explained away as god was usually in a bad mood and decided to let the Romans teach his people a leasson.'

    Yes, Israel's occupation was similar to the other times in its history when God gave them into the hands of their enemies. Philistines, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans - God uses wicked nations to discipline His people.

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  72. Tain Bo said:
    'I don’t see how using the NT escapes the OT if the OT is put aside so that the NT can usurp the old god then that would mean the OT is wrong, how can the all knowing creator be wrong? And what of the other scriptures that were sidelined to fit mans idea will the OT end up years from now as excluded from teaching.'

    The OT is God's word just as much as is the NT. But the NT gives God's final revelation and it tells us God fulfilled and abolished the Old Covenant by Christ's life and atoning sacrifice, establishing the New Covenant which He had promised in the OT:
    Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
    13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    The writer is quoting from Jeremiah 31:31–34.

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  73. Tain bo said:
    'High profile dissident Jews of the bible John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth before we changed his name to Jesus of Christ'

    He did not change His name - Jesus of Nazareth is Jesus the Christ.

    'both meet violent ends one is hailed as a Christian martyr and the other the true son of god the truth is they were no more Christian than I am Jewish.'

    Jesus could not be a Christian, for the term refers to a follower of Christ. He is the Christ. But John the Baptist could be called a Christian, even though the term was not used of Christ's followers until long after John was dead. John was indeed a follower of Christ.

    'The Baptist gets reduced to the margins even though he had an established following the big lad from Nazareth hears about this nomad desert dweller and his followers and the ritual of dunking people in the water to purify them.'

    Jesus knew of John long before either man entered their ministries. He was related to John through His mother.

    And Baptism was an established form of Jewish religious activity.


    'Let’s just look at Jesus of N as purely human and a wise man with above average intelligence and sees this other dissident as a rival, scratches his noggin a bit and thinks okay I will go visit this man and win him over with humbleness let him dip me in the water and hey presto he wins the Baptist and his followers over.
    The story sounds reasonable but the Baptist and the Nazarene would have been to separate cults and rivals just as RCs and Reformers.'

    An interesting conspiracy theory. The real version is just as exciting, however.

    'Certainly the narratives change and change from dissident Jews to a separate cult to Christians then to Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics then Protestants and all the rest of the numerous factions of Christianly which in turn all cancel each other out.'

    The perceptions of men may change, but it is God's perception that counts. He sees the appointed line of progress from Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, John and Christ. He sees also the history of the Church, in persecution, in poverty, in popularity, in prosperity, in purity and pollution, in unity and division. The Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia given in Revelation is a good indication of the trials that awaited the Church down the ages.

    Yes, there are apostate churches out there, claiming to be the true Church. And there are divisions even among God's real Church. Many of the issues that divide are, however, not essential to the faith. So lots of us regard our brethren in other denominations to be as truly Christian as ourselves.

    'It is like going to the religion shop and trying to decide what chocolate biscuits are the best, better to stick with the plain ones.'

    The Bible is the place to go to decide which church best represents God's Church.

    'Myths and stories more often than not change and expand through generations.'

    Indeed.

    'Do I believe that a fairy named Aillen a fire breathing fairy no less for 20 odd years would go to Tara and play sweet music to conk out the men and then torch the place probably not but it is fantastic reading.
    Is it more likely that fires and wooden buildings along with drunkenness may have burnt the gaff down or other clans did but for legends that would not be much of a story.'

    Yes, all possible scenarios.

    But there is one truth, one actual historical event. All accounts are not of equal truth. In the matter of ancient Irish history, it hardly matters. But in the matter of God and your eternal welfare, it is essential to find the real truth.

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  74. Wolfsbane,

    “Thought those days were over in the South?”

    Touché my friend, touché, I got a good laugh at the truth in that. I would hope those days are over.

    Thanks for the return, I will do the head scratching and hopefully answer a wee bit quicker.

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  75. Tain Bo said:
    'The bible is subject to the same scrutiny it is full of magical things and special gifts and powers.'

    It reports many supernatural events. Doesn't make it mythical - unless one holds that supernatural events cannot occur. The factuality of those reports may be judged by the accuracy of its reports of natural events; and of course by the internal witness of God's Spirit to the conscience.

    'Moses was probably an Egyptian Prince'

    He was indeed.

    'not a content one'

    True.

    'as he probably like all princes wanted to be king,'

    No, his discontent was over the mistreatment of his people, the Jews.

    'the One God idea was probably in practice at the time'

    No, the gods of Egypt were plural at the time.

    'and the times plagues were not much more than economic hard times in the land so the natives probably blamed it on the one god and Moses seen the opportunity to become a leader in his own rights rebelled and sided with the Hebrews and off they went to find a new land.'

    As with any history, we can invent other reasons for people's actions. Doesn't make it so.

    'The parting of the red sea was probably just a metaphor turned myth'

    Why 'probably'? Because you hold that supernatural things cannot happen?

    'I doubt the economic hard times in Egypt sent an army after them but were glad to see the back of them as the rulers would have enough problems keeping their own subjects in order sending an army out would leave the city open for rebellion.'

    The Israelites were SLAVES in Egypt: their freedom was a great economic loss to Egypt.

    'Writers take liberties in artistic freedoms and the picture they paint in one language is subject to a new language and translation.'

    True. But if the report is under the inspiration of God, such liberties would not occur. As to translation change, that will be marginal. Some idiom may puzzle for a time; the identity of some plant or beast may remain uncertain.

    'It is not much different than having 100 people in a room and whispering a few lines to the 1st person by the time it reaches the last the message is usually completely different.'

    Yes, without checks, big differences could occur. But with it being directed by God, the report will be accurate. God spoke through Moses and the prophets.

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  76. I saw this article about Jesus yesterday

    http://www.newsweek.com/jesus-was-crucified-because-disciples-were-armed-bible-analysis-suggests-271436

    In view of this thread, i thought Tain Bo and Wolfsbane might be interested.

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  77. Tain Bo said:
    'I see no evidence of a just and merciful god or of a god at all in fact religion is good for holding back progress.'

    I have experienced much mercy in my life. And I see in history both God's justice and mercy at work. But God's justice will only be fully known when Christ returns to judge the world. Then all wickedness will receive its just reward.

    'Christians are factional and far from united.'

    Yes - but that is no proof that God doesn't exist. His word - the Bible - told us that such divisions would exist, and how we are to work for true unity of spirit:
    1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    1 Corinthians 11:18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

    'If the great religious minds cannot agree on the holy books and which version is the one true god then Christians need to accept the responsibility for their own decline.'

    Most divisions are not over essential doctrine - so those involved recognise each other as true believers. Where fundamental errors are involved, it is not Christians who are divided: we are divided from heretics and apostates. Not all who claim the name of Christ are in fact Christians in the NT sense. Just as not all who have the name Socialist are socialists in the authentic sense.

    'Old world thinking belongs in the past Catholic States, Protestant States are residuals of Kings, Castles, and Popes.'

    Agreed - but that old world thinking was not authentic NT Christianity. You will find no secular power control there. It was the later importation of worldly thinking that corrupted the Christian witness.

    'Religions in a democracy should hold their rightful place saving souls'

    Absolutely!

    'is any religion going to change the ungodly ways of politician’s worldwide?'

    We must pray for our politicians, that God will give them wisdom and courage to do what is right; and be a witness to them against wicked practices. Individual Christians may enter politics to that end - for example, Wilberforce and his campaign against slavery.

    'Hardly a case of pedantic more of the usual eradication of the local’s ways there is a well established proud list of British slaughter and what would be now classed as war crimes.'

    Yes, much of historic warfare would fall under that category now. Including the terrorism of Loyalists, Republicans and the State.

    'The names were too difficult but not anywhere near as difficult as Welsh names. My point was why hold on to some Irish and want to rid the north of anything Irish.'

    I don't have a problem with dropping the 'Irish' from our title - 'Ulster' would do fine for me. But I'm easy on the matter - if my Irish fellow-countrymen prefer 'Northern Irish', I'll go with that. It does not suggest I'm 'Irish', just 'Northern Irish'.

    'The Red Hand Commandos nothing protestant about that or the pagan red hand why hold onto pagan symbols'

    The RHC, as all the Loyalist paramilitaries, were composed of overwhelmingly heathen men and women. The 'Protestant' was only a social term, set against the 'Catholic' Republicans.

    But the Red Hand has been used by Christian citizens as a symbol of their Ulster identity - not celebrating anything pagan, merely using its geographical significance.

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  78. Tain Bo said:
    'My point was the original planters were giving land that was not theirs'

    True.

    'and the rights of the locals were tossed aside'

    True.

    'and only fair a wee bit better today.'

    The wealth in houses and jobs seems fairly evenly spread between our communities.

    'No matter what evidence there is the Protestants in the Free-State got the better deal'

    No matter what the evidence? They were treated well because that is what Republicanism must believe? No, I go with the people who experienced it.

    'the non-protestants in the north didn’t receive the same.'

    They were a bigger minority, of course, so discrimination would be more noticeable.

    'Then again it is the labels that cause the problems as the in-name-only Protestants and Catholics don’t deserve the same consideration as the smaller number of practicing people.'

    I agree - the religion cannot be judged by its in-name-only adherents. Let's see how the devout live it out.

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  79. Tain Bo said:
    'Even today that is the same as Protestants worry about a Catholic majority'

    Yes - we have learnt history's lessons about imperial religions, or any that support state coercion, Catholic or Protestant. We are not convinced a majority catholic state would naturally uphold our civil and religious liberties. More hopeful than a generation ago, however.

    'when we weed out the believers’ and do the calculation minus the sectarian division we won’t find true faithful high numbers.'

    Correct.

    'But that is the problem with religions they count the heathens in their flock cooking the books is more important than admitting their true number.'

    Correct. Corrupt religions are prone to the numbers game.

    'I am sure the Vatican has a copy of my papers as I unknowingly joined their gang shortly after my birth and still count me as one of the faithful not because I am but simply because they like to boast about their number.'

    Indeed. And the Mormons go one step further and baptise dead people to add to their numbers!!

    'The reality the world has changed literacy gives people the choice of learning and forming their own beliefs about the world'

    Yes - but the human soul does not change, and it always invents a god of its own imagination. The ego, or Marx, or Mao, or... Traditional religions have no monopoly on idolatry.

    'and as religions keep dividing eventually they will return to being small cults.'

    Hmm. Some powerful religions/ideologies out there. Rome may be in decline, as is much of Protestantism - but Islam is flexing its wings. As for the Christian Church founded by Christ - it never was promised worldly power. Its calling is to bring the gospel to save the lost, and to suffer for it:
    Acts 14:21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

    'How are they going to sort out this magic box the computer where straying to the evil side is a click away but that is minor in the technology age the passive computer will have greater impact on people than religion.'

    Sure, the internet offers big opportunity for secret sins. But it's just another thing to on guard against. Life is full of opportunities to sin. Like the printing press, it revolutionises the opportunity to bring the good news as well. Many lands where it is illegal to preach the gospel have now being reached by the internet. Many Muslims are hearing the gospel for the first time.

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  80. Tain Bo said:
    'The rise of nanotechnologies’ will be an interesting time with self-replicating micro machines unlike the old world religions holding back progress that will not be on the cards today or in the future.'

    Machines are only machines - not persons. And the advance of technology has nothing to say about the progress of society. Germany was a most educated and technological society at the start of the 20thC.

    'And what if the day arrives when man succeeds in replicating and creating a new form of ungodly humans the concept of god creating man will be at question and I am not talking about Dr. Frankenstein’s monster.'

    Man can manipulate genes, but not create a spirit. Personhood is from God.

    'It would seem the future will hold greater problems than Catholics and Protestants it is already on the march. There are and will be benefits’ but ultimately it will be about power and control.'

    Indeed - we already have experienced problems much greater than the Catholics and Protestants issue. Marxism has produced some of the greatest mass murders in history; and the blend of Nationalism and Socialism almost equalled it. Traditional religion as manifested in Islam may some day compete.

    'I don’t see much of a future for god as chances are a new age god will be created.'

    There are many new age gods today. But God can look after Himself. He has already determined the outcome:
    1 Corinthians 15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

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  81. Tain Bo said:

    'I wouldn’t be loyal to a UI based in religion I would settle the issue of reclaiming 3 counties first that way the north has a bigger stick in any say in a UI.
    Considering many of us in the north don’t take too kindly to a Brit government why would we lower the standard for an Irish one? For a pope not a bloody chance that would be tossing away and rights gained a united north would hold great sway.'

    Glad to hear that! A British and Irish UI with civil and religious liberty would be a serious option for us PULs to consider.

    'I doubt we would be that foolish and the British way of life wouldn’t fade away removing an invisible line doesn’t mean removing a peoples way of life.'

    Provided it wasn't actively discouraged.

    'Why do you believe republicans will force you into a UI'

    They would have done so had they their way - that's what they were attempting until 1998! Even here in TPQ, we are told we have no right to remain out of a UI.

    'the way things are today it would seem that British democracy might be the culprit but that is not a guarantee for the north as people could decide not on religious or republican grounds but simply on what is on offer so it could be a case of northern non- Protestants holding the fort down to remain in the union.'

    I agree. It's not only PULs who prefer to take their changes in the UK rather than a UI.

    'That magical number they share with us is that minus the tax paid to them?'

    Yes - it is the net receipt.

    'Do you believe the robber banks of London didn’t make a profit from the north? I don’t think it was out of love or generosity they invested in the north based in a financial return.
    Nowadays that return is not so great when you are poor and caught in the poverty trap politics and religions don’t do much for you.'

    The banks were everywhere - no proof that they wanted to maintain any Union anywhere. They prosper in all sorts of lands.

    'Why if the Brits had no interest in your prosperity would you want to keep their bank healthy?'

    Why do you think I want to keep their bank healthy? Because it is our bank too.

    'It would seem the Brits play the unionist fiddle and not the other way round they can rely upon sectarians and continue to play that old handy card of bluff using the PUL who in turn will use the loyalist’ card and pit the poor against the poor.'

    The Brits are playing nothing - they are paying £10 Billion p.a.

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  82. Tain Bo said:
    'Do you believe that British intelligence knew nothing about the large arms shipments from Libya? It might have been another quiet coup of a great bluff letting large amounts in. It is suspicious at best as to why the now heavily armed IRA didn’t put them to use.'

    Who knows? Mistakes do happen, and some are let happen. Why did the US leave so much equipment in Vietnam? Too much bother to get it out? Or to encourage the Vietnamese to flex their muscles against Cambodia and China? Who knows?

    Why did the IRA not use it all? Not prepared for a big showdown? Or already working for the Brits? Who knows?

    'Another bluff the Brits had nothing to lose as the military stomach for an all out war was not there.'

    I agree. By that time I think (not know), the IRA leadership knew it was not going to win, because the problem was not the Government, but the PUL people. An all out war with them would be too great a price.

    'Good move, the Free-State was holding large amounts of weapons to be used against Ulster.
    The Brits have a yarn with the IRA if you decide to go to war we welcome that as we will have no choice but to bomb the not so secret arms dumps and our forces will enter into the Free-State and cut off your supply lines and then politely crush you with our far superior force.'

    Indeed. That's another possible scenario.

    'To use or not to use that was never the question but it was a great big stick they give the IRA and as usual beat them over the head with it. Tally ho old chaps onward to our table and we will let you play in Stormont.
    That would be enough to make the Free-State government push for peace, seriously what could they do to stand up to the Brits who would have a legal right to bomb and invade them.
    That would be a justified reason BA going after IRA terrorist weapons no real way out of that for all involved but the Brits way.'

    Yes - and with the fall of the Soviet Union, things just looked bleaker for revolutionaries.


    'Anyways religion is not going anywhere soon it would seem the newer threat to a British way of life is coming from other religious extremists. Sounds like the same old story another chapter in the god wars.'

    Yes, Islam is returning to its imperialist roots.

    'Sorry about the long winded bit but as Dave Allen used to say:
    May you god go with you'

    Thanks, Tain Bo. Our exchange is long, but I hope we will have a clearer understanding from it.

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  83. frankie said:
    '[All our sexual needs can be catered fro in a faithful married life]
    I'm sure they can but they do say variety is the spice of life, a change is as good as a holiday.'

    Not in marriage. Change is like mixing milk with vinegar. It curdles.

    'I could give several reasons personally Wolf but I think they'd be to sexually explicit to print. When do you think God made T-Rex and his friends? Before or after he made Adam & Eve?'

    Before. Adam & Eve were created last of all His creation.

    'As for Moses.. whats this all about "Moses only killed those who needed killing. Nothing bloodthirsty about him.?" Moses told 'The chosen people' to go and kill those who didn't listen to what he said kill only the men and to take as many women as you want and do what ever you want with them..'

    God told Moses to destroy ALL the Canaanites; but not all in the other nations who fought against Israel. God's judgement against the wicked, not Moses'.

    'I never said Jesus was born on the 25th Dec. What I said was thats the day the Romans decided to mark his alleged birth.'

    Yes - so it's nothing to do with authentic Christianity.

    'Personally I reckon if he was born, his B'day would be sometime around the first week in September.'

    Yes, that's a more plausible date.

    'I was under the impression that the papacy arose from Jesus saying to Peter 'Upon this rock I will build my church' (or words to that effect).'

    No, the claims of the papacy use that text - the rest of Scripture show it had no such meaning. Peter had the lead role in taking the gospel to the Jews, and Paul had the same role in taking it to the Gentiles.

    'Peter properly translated means 'hardman' (meaning he was JC's bodygaurd.)'

    No, it means 'rock', not 'hardman'.

    'Whats this about The Catholic Church existed a long time before Rome took control.. There was no Catholic church before the Romans decided.'

    The term Catholic means universal - and the NT shows one church distributed in many lands. Local churches, all part of The Church.

    'Before then all you had is different sects and groups of Christians who all had slight variants of each other..'

    No, there were heretics that arose, but were not part of the Church. The churches in, say, Jerusalem, Antioch, Berea, Rome were are in communion.

    '[What we have here is simply erasing an unwanted text so that you have material on which to write other things..]
    That's what I said 'doctored'. If it was the word of God why the need to re-write anything?'

    They were not re-writing it. They were discarding that copy of a particular text so that they could use the space to write down another text.

    'So someone decided to delete parts of the Gospel of Luke to write over what was already there and you are expecting me to believe nothing was changed?'

    They were not deleting parts of a text and putting in other material so that the reader would think it was the original Luke text. They were just using the parchment to write something more pressing for their needs. Luke's Gospel existed in many other parchments and papyri. Only that copy was discarded.

    'I know the bible was put together before the Qu'ran was wrote. Why wont the bible include 'The book of Enoch, The Gospels of Thomas & Mary and a host of other works?''

    Because they were not regarded as Holy Scripture by the churches. They were seen to be the works of men, not inspired by God.

    'Why not add the Dead sea scrolls.'

    As above.

    'After all they were all penned in and around the same time an basically talk about the same subject matter.'

    Because some writing was given by God, and some by mere men:
    2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

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  84. frankie said:
    '[No, just that the British and Irish are relatively close in culture]
    Explain how they are?'

    Same language, same soccer interest/loyalties, same work practices, same expectations for a career, house, etc.

    'What would happen right off the bat if/when Ireland is united is all the duplicity in policing, civil service, education, health and a score of other government depts would stop, saving millions of green backs.'

    Really? Big savings shifting from 1.5 million to 6 million? How about shifting from 4.5 million to 64 million? Ireland rejoins the UK.

    No, I fear the savings of an all-Ireland economy would be marginal compared to the loss of the UK support.

    'For an island the size of Ireland doubling up' on essential services, having different tax systems, different colours of green backs, is stupid beyond belief.'

    For an island group the size of the British Isles ...

    '[If you were trying to bribe me into a UI, that would be a different matter. Money could not compensate for my identity and liberties.]
    But you said earlier Wolf if Ireland was united and the natural resources got put to good use, so all of the people benefit from it, you would deffo consider. You drew the line at me changing all places of worship into centres of education, creche's etc. Now if you want to invite friends to you house and get a jam session going singing Hank William's, be my guest.'

    That's the line indeed - money can't buy those liberties.

    '[I do look around - compared to what I see from the non-capitalist regimes, we are in paradise!]
    I thought Christians believe paradise was on the otherside. And if whats happening today is a Christian view of paradise then you can keep your version and I'll stick to my version.'

    I was speaking of earthy paradises - using the common term for prosperity and well-being. Of course the real Paradise, the eternal home of God's people, is infinitely more than the best here.

    'I think when Grouch gets is independent state set up. It'll be fairly close to a non capitalist sate we could 'emulate.''

    Yes, that seems to be the only State that would fit your hopes - as you have no model to offer here from anything non-capitalism has set up.

    Frankie, we should be grateful for the best we can get from our western Democracies - practical socialism/compassionate conservatism have brought us a long way. Ideological socialism and laissez-faire capitalism have brought us to trouble time and again.

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  85. Wolf,

    I'm not sure how this will come across in print but the link Sarah put up has more truths than the bible. If Jesus (who I seriously doubt was a real person) was alive today and running around with the 12 disciples in the six counties they'd all be in Roe House labeled as dissidents. As I said earlier Peter was JC's body guard nothing more nothing less. Judas wasn't a traitor either. In fact he was part of bunch of terrorists who was very handy with a dagger. And John who wrote the book of Revelation was taking magic mushrooms..(he was part of a sect of Alchemists)..

    Ancient Rome only crucified people who committed acts of terrorism. And the story of the virgin birth is basically true. What you have to do is look at the ancient Hebrew/Jewish culture of marriage to understand how. The way it's depicted in the gospels ( the birth of Jesus) sounds more like alien intervention and one of the first IVF treatments..

    As I said before JC was voted in a the son of God at the 2nd Council of Nicea..Now if you or anyone else wants to believe in the bible or any form of man made religion and it brings you comfort.. Like I said, I've better things to do with my time than listen to a preacher preach about a subject they have little faith in, knowledge of the origins or other...

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  86. Sarah, thanks for the article.

    It reports more of the usual conspiracy-type sensationalism thrown up to justify academic existence. The Professor Fredriksen quotes describe it:
    'But she appreciates Martin for “working his argument,” as that’s what people who study the history of the Bible do. The inevitable controversy and argument is “fun,” Fredriksen says. “It’s a contact sport.”'

    Interesting article, but marred by its own assumptions: 'the Gospels were written 40 to 60 years after the life of Jesus, by people who didn’t witness the events firsthand.'

    No one knows when the gospels were first written down - but there is nothing to suggest the disciples Matthew and John (who both were eye-witnesses of Christ) and Mark and Luke - who walked with Peter and the other apostles - were not the authors.

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  87. frankie said
    'I'm not sure how this will come across in print but the link Sarah put up has more truths than the bible. If Jesus (who I seriously doubt was a real person) was alive today and running around with the 12 disciples in the six counties they'd all be in Roe House labeled as dissidents. As I said earlier Peter was JC's body guard nothing more nothing less. Judas wasn't a traitor either. In fact he was part of bunch of terrorists who was very handy with a dagger. And John who wrote the book of Revelation was taking magic mushrooms..(he was part of a sect of Alchemists)..

    Ancient Rome only crucified people who committed acts of terrorism. And the story of the virgin birth is basically true. What you have to do is look at the ancient Hebrew/Jewish culture of marriage to understand how. The way it's depicted in the gospels ( the birth of Jesus) sounds more like alien intervention and one of the first IVF treatments..

    As I said before JC was voted in a the son of God at the 2nd Council of Nicea..Now if you or anyone else wants to believe in the bible or any form of man made religion and it brings you comfort.. Like I said, I've better things to do with my time than listen to a preacher preach about a subject they have little faith in, knowledge of the origins or other...'

    Frankie, if you have ANY evidence for ANY of the above, I'd like to hear it.

    For example, do you really want us to believe Jesus was not thought of as the Son of God before AD 787? And exactly where in that council was He voted in as Son of God?

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  88. Wolf,
    Not in marriage. Change is like mixing milk with vinegar. It curdles.

    If that's the case try this..put them on a strict diet of pineapple juice for a month and they'll taste sweeter than honey. I don't do monogamy. It may work for some (or most) but I've too much love inside and I like to spread it around...

    Before. Adam & Eve were created last of all His creation.

    We (humans) are either a complete freak of nature or alien intervention...

    Yes - so it's nothing to do with authentic Christianity.

    What's authentic Christianity? What sect/branch are we talking about, Your version or some other version of Christianity? We both ageeed earlier there are several. Peter means 'Rocky'..Hardman, body guard...

    No, there were heretics that arose, but were not part of the Church. The churches in, say, Jerusalem, Antioch, Berea, Rome were are in communion.

    That's almost as funny as being called an infidel by the local Taliban.

    They were not deleting parts of a text and putting in other material so that the reader would think it was the original Luke text. They were just using the parchment to write something more pressing for their needs. Luke's Gospel existed in many other parchments and papyri. Only that copy was discarded.

    Wolf explain that one again...Still reads doctored.

    Because they were not regarded as Holy Scripture by the churches. They were seen to be the works of men, not inspired by God.

    Wolf, God didn't write anything. Man did.

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  89. No, just that the British and Irish are relatively close in culture,Same language

    So I'm expected to believe the Irish language and English language are the same!!!! They are as different to each other as chalk is to cheese.

    same soccer interest/loyalties, same work practices, same expectations for a career, house, etc.

    Work ethics, expectations have nothings to do with it. If thats your argument then why not include the French, Germans and the rest of Europe and fcuk it why not throw in north America, Japan, China & Russia etc. I've no loyalties to London, England or the Uk. I've seriously no respect for Buck House and your, not my, Queen.


    Really? Big savings shifting from 1.5 million to 6 million? How about shifting from 4.5 million to 64 million? Ireland rejoins the UK.

    Rejoins the UK???? Unless you've been away somewhere for the past week the UK is over, finished... It's breaking up as I type. There is bigger chance (very slim at that) of Ireland rejoining the commonwealth than joining the UK.

    No, I fear the savings of an all-Ireland economy would be marginal compared to the loss of the UK support.

    Do some research yourself at the conservative estimates of oil & gas reserves around Irish shores. Then throw in the fishing rights, gold and quartz mines..


    If you were trying to bribe me into a UI, that would be a different matter. Money could not compensate for my identity and liberties.That's the line indeed - money can't buy those liberties.

    Wolfsbane, you'll always be wolfsbane. But why do you want to be associated with a German royal family when you are say you are British? They've more secrets than the BBC. I might even write a piece for the TPQ and what I think and uncovered about Buck House..

    'I was speaking of earthy paradises - using the common term for prosperity and well-being. Of course the real Paradise, the eternal home of God's people, is infinitely more than the best here.

    What earthly paradise? There is or whats looking like a prelude to WW3. Team America is waging a proxy war in Syria and Russia wont like that. Africa is being exploited beyond belief by the 1%... What exactly is the earthly paradise you what me to see?



    Yes, that seems to be the only State that would fit your hopes - as you have no model to offer here from anything non-capitalism has set up.

    Peter in a previous post thinks like me Jacques makes a good alternative to capitalism

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  90. I'm not overly familiar with the New Testament, but even so, i'm inclined to agree with Frankie on this.

    "Moses only killed those who needed killing" Wolfsbane, that's a very subjective way of looking at things. In fact to me it sounds very ISIS-like. Surely no one needs killing? And if so, who decides? And how can they possibly decide? It just doesn't sound/seem right.

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  91. Sarah,

    thanks for the link it is interesting but like everything else form that period more research is needed minus the religious bias and minus how we think of ancient peoples being different from modern peoples.

    I highly doubt when the Roman cops showed up to nick Jesus that one left minus an ear. That would take some skill with a sword not to mention the Romans would have responded with a bit of slaughter in the garden as diplomacy was not the business Roman soldiers were in. I doubt if anyone attacked a Roman soldier they would live to tell the tale.

    As for being armed that would make sense for necessity alone hunters would not bring much home without weapons, relying upon snares and traps would be as today a hit or miss. Most households would have at least a few knifes to cut up animals for food for the family and for trade or barter.
    Sheppard’s would need heavier weapons as chasing away wild animals with a stick wouldn’t work out so well. It would be difficult to chop down trees without an axe but just as difficult for a local to strike down a Roman with one without being run through with a spear.

    It would make sense they were armed and Rome would have no issue with that as it kept the markets stocked and the people feed.
    The more militant would have military grade weapons I doubt they walked about with them but would take them from a stash when needed to go stiff a few Roman soldiers.
    Facing off with the elite Roman shock troops was no easy task. The Romans understood war and the locals having weapons was not a great problem as they lacked a well trained highly disciplined army and pockets of resistance were easily put down with the standard Roman brutality.

    The world was as violent then as it is now and the business of war is always booming with more and more sophisticated methods of wiping each-other out.

    On a different note of sorts I haven’t forgot about 51 Documents and will try and put a piece together sometime next month after I read it a few more times.

    All the best

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  92. Wolfsbane,

    I was just thinking the deck is stacked against me on this one as I don’t have the light in me or god on my side. Usually I try and avoid religious argument but on this debate I have no problem as I believe you are a man of faith and what I may say is nothing personal against you or your beliefs.

    It is interesting to me and educational reading your perspective I appreciate you taking the time and hopefully the friendly banter will continue and not lead to any hard feelings. Religion is dodgy territory and I am sure all Christians would view my opinion as heretical blasphemy but I fail to grasp the idea of the light and the way and the magical properties involved this mystical force avoids me.

    All the best

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  93. Wolfsbane, i really don't know. I wasn't throwing the gauntlet down - i just wondered if you'd seen that article and thought you might be interested. I can't debate the New Testament with you, or anyone, because i'm not familiar with it.

    Tain Bo - i'm very much looking forward to your take on the 51 documents.

    For what it's worth, i do believe that Jesus was a real person, and i do believe he was a son of God, but no more or less than you, Tain Bo, or Wolfsbane, or Frankie, are the son of God - and that is assuming that there is a God, but i'm not certain there is. But if there is, i think he must be a father to us all. No offense intended to anyone.

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  94. Frankie,

    there is good reason people or individuals went about yarning chances are they were illiterate you would assume if gods son Jesus was here to spread the good word god would have give him the gift of writing and not the gab.

    We take reading and writing for granted today but back then few had the talent of writing and they were not the common folk so it is safe to assume Jesus and his disciples didn’t do any writing.
    As for scribes we run into a problem with them writing down second, third hand accounts doing their job and handing over the draft to their boss who gives it the once over and says, nah, this should say that and that should say this and when happy there we have it.

    Down the years it gets reworked and changes languages which alters translation from the original all the way through to today.

    Logic is always brushed aside with it is the mystery of god only man would think about turning water into wine and were drink is involved yarns grow legs.

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  95. Tain bo,

    Johnny Cash had a back stage pass to a Willie Nelson show.. and for 14 odd yrs I'd a back stage pass to Holy Cross Church in Ardoyne. And I can remember during the conflict friends parents getting laid off from work, my daddy was laid iff from Michelin and I can remember him going to get food from a food bank (then it was called ECC something) in Holy Cross boys once a week, some had parents killed during the conflict etc and struggled to make ends meet and after 11am mass every Sunday I'd help Brother Pascal bring the collection plates into the 'count room', it looked like the scene straight from Martin Scorsese's Casino. It seemed to me at least as people felt they had to give to the church to keep up appearances. At Christmas they (the Priests) had a better stocked bar than the Crumlin Star..They always had cars available and the kitchen was well stocked with food. I'd scratch my head thinking..This isn't adding up. I knew the priests who were preaching about helping the poor etc.. Listening to the fishes & loaves story at gospel time, some people didn't have 3 meals a day or struggled to put food on the table and i never seen a hungry priest.. Not once.

    As for the bible (all of it) there is a lot of funky stuff in it. Especially the OT part. It deffo talks about Aliens, UFO's etc.. And if Jesus did exist and my jury is out on that.. He was a dissident.

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  96. Frankie,

    great wee tune and hard to believe that Willie Nelson still does about 80 shows a year not too shabby at all.

    You have my sympathy on your stint as an altar boy my brother was one for a few years him and his mate joined the god squad. That ended shortly after the kick off in 69 but I still like to wind him up about today.

    That hasn’t changed much today people still struggling to get by on little and the church still has its hand out peddling the same old story of getting our reward in the Kingdom of Heaven the well feed and watered priests don’t have the worries of those constantly struggling in the poverty trap of life on the rock.

    It shouldn’t add up as it’s a swindle I doubt the Vatican bank is busy counting souls too busy counting donations but all is well as it doesn’t matter if you are homeless and die of starvation the reward is on the other side. It would be interesting to find out where they invest their money as I am sure they do more than a few deals with the devil.

    The chariots from above could be viewed as ET as they were not of this earth along with angels and Jesus flying back up to heaven.

    Did he exist that is still up for debate being the key figure in Christianity and a dissident Jew you would think his life would be historically well documented?
    Then again people have been claiming to be the messiah in our own time and back then there was no shortage of people claiming the same.

    It is the name game it highly unlikely that his name was Jesus that comes from the Greek translation of the Hebrew Yoshua or Yahushua or as we know it Joshua. The Greek word Iesous and later the Latin Iesus and not a big change in English remove the letter I and add the J and that is the simple version of the name game.
    Many languages means the original gets lost or discarded in translation even the switch from old English to modern English changes it again.

    The simple reason removing the Hebrew name works out well in Christian terms they get to claim him as the messiah. If there is a god then I would guess he give up on earthlings a long time ago.

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  97. Sarah,

    your point is valid Moses only killed those that needed killed is a bit like saying Hitler or Stalin only killed those that needed to be killed yet Moses sounds more sinister as his orders came from above.

    I would agree if there is a god and we are of his/her making all should be equal but even in the one god world there are many one gods and we all are not so equal and the divisions within divisions create even more one gods which is not unlike pagans and many gods.

    Head scratching time what version of one god is true the simple answer is the one that fits.

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  98. Tain bo,
    One thing that stuck in my head about being an alter boy was this.. it was a strange wedding. I've served at more wedding than I care to remember. All weddings were between 10am and 12 noon on a Saturday. You may have the odd one at 1pm (but they were the exception rather than the rule). Anyhow this was around 1979 and at 7am mass, there was a wedding. It never happened before or after during my stint. To this day I don't know if it was a shot gun wedding, a Catholic marrying a Protestant or even an OTR.. That one wedding has always stuck in my mind. Like I said, I've lost count of the number of weddings I attended as an alter boy.

    Going back to the bible... Too many thing have been lost in translation, twisted, tweaked and re-edited to know what's the truth. At best they give an idea of what life was like 2,000 + years ago. Nothing more or less.

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  99. Sarah Heaton said:
    '[Moses only killed those who needed killing]
    Wolfsbane, that's a very subjective way of looking at things. In fact to me it sounds very ISIS-like. Surely no one needs killing? And if so, who decides? And how can they possibly decide? It just doesn't sound/seem right.'

    God decides - He is the only one who has all the information and the right (He made us, and is entitled to punish our sin as and when He pleases).

    Of course, if one denies the existence of God, then one may not agree with His assessment of sinners. But if it's real, whether we believe or not isn't material.

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  100. frankie said:
    'We (humans) are either a complete freak of nature or alien intervention...'

    Yes, if by that you mean an intelligence outside nature. God is that. Indeed, He is the creator of all nature, including us.

    'What's authentic Christianity? What sect/branch are we talking about, Your version or some other version of Christianity?'

    The NT version. You can test the claimants by its standards.

    'We both ageeed earlier there are several.'

    There are many groups divided by secondary doctrines, but all owning each other as part of authentic Christianity. And there are many groups who claim to be Christian whose doctrine/practice shows they are not.

    'Peter means 'Rocky'..Hardman, body guard...'

    No: You jump from 'rocky' to body guard. Jesus did not appoint Peter a body guard, but an apostle. Peter was to front the evangelisation of the Jews - and he began the task on the Day of Pentecost.

    '[No, there were heretics that arose, but were not part of the Church. The churches in, say, Jerusalem, Antioch, Berea, Rome were are in communion.]
    That's almost as funny as being called an infidel by the local Taliban.'

    The NT calls them heretics. False prophets/teachers:
    2 Peter 2:2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

    '[They were not deleting parts of a text and putting in other material so that the reader would think it was the original Luke text. They were just using the parchment to write something more pressing for their needs. Luke's Gospel existed in many other parchments and papyri. Only that copy was discarded.]
    Wolf explain that one again...Still reads doctored.'

    OK - say I'm stuck for paper to write down a sermon I've prepared for next week, but have on hand a booklet of Luke's Gospel. I decide to overwrite the fine print of the booklet with a black marker, putting down my sermon and all the Scriptural references I will be using.

    Have I doctored the Gospel of Luke? Will anyone finding it think I wanted to say my sermon was what Luke wrote? No, they will see I was merely using the paper for MY writing, not passing it off as Luke's.

    'Wolf, God didn't write anything. Man did.'

    Hmm. You know this? How?

    Or do you just mean you hope that is the case, for you'd not like to be answerable to the God revealed in the Bible?

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  101. frankie said:
    'So I'm expected to believe the Irish language and English language are the same!!!! They are as different to each other as chalk is to cheese.'

    ALL of the nationalists I have lived beside and ALL I have worked with spoke English 99% of the time I encountered them or heard them communicate with others. Indeed, TPQ - including your posts - have been conducted in English. English is our common language. We may have more or less Irish or Ulster Scots, but we all have English as our main tongue.

    'Work ethics, expectations have nothings to do with it. If thats your argument then why not include the French, Germans and the rest of Europe and fcuk it why not throw in north America, Japan, China & Russia etc.'

    There are differences in culture in those respects among the nations. We don't do Baseball, we don't work like the Japanese, etc.

    'I've no loyalties to London, England or the Uk. I've seriously no respect for Buck House and your, not my, Queen.'

    Sure - that's your choice. I regard the English/Scots and Welsh as my British nation. Ulster is my primary nation. And I'm not a royalist. Being British does not require one to be a royalist. My spiritual and ethnic forefathers executed a king for treason.

    '[Really? Big savings shifting from 1.5 million to 6 million? How about shifting from 4.5 million to 64 million? Ireland rejoins the UK.]
    Rejoins the UK???? Unless you've been away somewhere for the past week the UK is over, finished... It's breaking up as I type. There is bigger chance (very slim at that) of Ireland rejoining the commonwealth than joining the UK.'

    Who knows - but my point was that the argument you use for a UI works just as well or better for a re-united British Isles. I'm not saying it will happen - just that your argument makes one as likely as the other.

    'Do some research yourself at the conservative estimates of oil & gas reserves around Irish shores. Then throw in the fishing rights, gold and quartz mines..'

    I wouldn't know where to start - if you have the figures, please share the details. It's a wonder Ireland is in such a bad shape economically if all these resources are at hand.


    'Wolfsbane, you'll always be wolfsbane.'

    True - but I would still be wolfsbane in a gulag, so that doesn't give me any comfort.

    'But why do you want to be associated with a German royal family when you are say you are British? They've more secrets than the BBC. I might even write a piece for the TPQ and what I think and uncovered about Buck House..'

    As above, I'm not a royalist. I'm not really excited to remove ERII, as she seems to have done a reasonable job as figure-head; but a British Republic would be fine with me.


    'What earthly paradise?'

    So much food we have to curb our appetites; so much clothing we have no wardrobe space; so much gadgets and entertainment we have to discipline ourselves to get a bit of exercise; etc. We live high on the hog compared to most in history and in the rest of the world today.

    'There is or whats looking like a prelude to WW3. Team America is waging a proxy war in Syria and Russia wont like that. Africa is being exploited beyond belief by the 1%... What exactly is the earthly paradise you what me to see?'

    For us in the West, I meant. The capitalist West. Compared to the non-capitalist nations, we do very well.

    'Peter in a previous post thinks like me Jacques makes a good alternative to capitalism'

    Maybe I should have watched the whole thing, but are you saying the answer to capitalism is automation? That we just get machines to do the work? Or all the repetitive work at least? Who decides who does the complex work, and who lives every day on the beach? Does the worker and non-worker get the same pay? Seems to me another crazy scheme. Or have I picked it up wrong?

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  102. Frankie,

    I would guess OTR but have no idea as for Protestant marrying Catholic that becomes religious blackmail people shouldn’t have to convert just to get married.

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  103. Wolfsbane,

    slowly but surely getting closer to another lengthy response

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  104. What I mean Wolf by a freak of nature. 25% of me thinks Darwin was on the right track but 75% thinks aliens tweaked ape DNA with their DNA.. and kept tweaking things until they settled on 'humans'. The OT say's the same thing only it says the fallen angels had sex with humans and made giants.

    Going back on an earlier point about 'playing the field' I said I've too much love inside and I like to spread it around etc (going forth and multiplying ).. You said 'one man, one woman'..What about these god fearing Christians who are swingers and preach about god...? I know what the bible say's a heretic is.. The Taliban call non believers like me an infidel.. Basically the same..

    How do I know God didn't put pen to paper.., Easy, everything that is written about god every book etc say's it was man who wrote what god is meant to have said to him... Why isn't there a book of God? There is the book of Job, Enoch, at least 8 Gospels....

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  105. Wolfesbane,
    I am not going to engage in a religious debate, people believe what they believe. One thing you said caught my eye. You said we live in an earthly paradise because we have more than we can eat etc, but that is not the case for the majority of humans on this planet and i know that's your point about the benefits of capitalism but what kind of god permits this? What kind of god elevates a section of his own creation above another? If they are the omnipotent creations, is there behaviour not under his control? I know you are going to tell me about god giving his creations freewill but he kind of negates that by slaughtering those whose freewill didn't correspond with his will. If you take the bible as a purely academic study god is a lunatic, no different from the muslim god you love to slander. The next time time god shows you the way ask him to show the same compassion to the children of Sudan who die for the want of water.

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  106. @ Tain Bo, you could be right.. All I know is that one wedding has always stuck in my head...

    Wolf I'm not denying most people who live in Ireland use English as their first language to communicate etc.. What I'd said is the Irish and English lang are very different and so is Irish and English culture. The work ethics are the same the world over. I mean by that they work to live and support themselves and their families. Not how different countries treat their workers or the ethics their employers have...

    . Ulster is my primary nation.

    The complete nine counties or the loyalist six (which isn't Ulster but a state)....

    And I'm not a royalist. Being British does not require one to be a royalist

    Bring British means you are a subject of the British crown whether you like it or not. I'm not a subject.

    My spiritual and ethnic forefathers executed a king for treason.

    And your national anthem is God save your queen which you stand up to.. I don't..

    Who knows - but my point was that the argument you use for a UI works just as well or better for a re-united British Isles. I'm not saying it will happen - just that your argument makes one as likely as the other.

    Why would I or any other Irishman want to give up our nationality to be British? Why????

    I wouldn't know where to start - if you have the figures, please share the details. It's a wonder Ireland is in such a bad shape economically if all these resources are at hand.

    Wolf we both know why Ireland is in a mess. Part of the reason is bailing out the banks, before that Haughey giving away oil & gas rights for brown envelopes stuffed full of cash.. Here is some homework Wolf, check out what was Michael Noonan doing at the Bilderberg meeting in Virginia a few yrs back..


    but I would still be wolfsbane in a gulag, so that doesn't give me any comfort.

    Wolf you'd be free from religion.. You can still watch TV, go to bars & club, invite friends over to your house and live as normal.. But no religious places of worship. They'd be turned into schools, accommodation etc...

    As above, I'm not a royalist. I'm not really excited to remove ERII, as she seems to have done a reasonable job as figure-head; but a British Republic would be fine with me.

    The British Royal family have more sleaze than the whole of Westminster. Prince Andy use to hang around with hookers, Charlie is a bit gay, Uncle Louis was a kiddie fiddler and I haven't gotten to the bottom of what Liz and Phil done with 10 kids in Canada.. although they (kids) kissed her feet by all accounts and didn't come back... And if you are ok with a British republic, then by the same logic you shouldn't have any problem with any republic.. Like and Irish one..



    Tell that to the millions of Africans who starve each day because their continent is exploited by the west.....

    For us in the West, I meant. The capitalist West. Compared to the non-capitalist nations, we do very well.

    Tell that to the people of Derry, west Belfast, Manchester... Not me.



    Watch it again and some of his other videos and talks... You deffo got the wrong end of the stick..

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  107. Tain Bo said:
    'Sarah,...I highly doubt when the Roman cops showed up to nick Jesus that one left minus an ear. That would take some skill with a sword not to mention the Romans would have responded with a bit of slaughter in the garden as diplomacy was not the business Roman soldiers were in. I doubt if anyone attacked a Roman soldier they would live to tell the tale.'

    You're absolutely right! The Romans had no part in the arrest of Jesus. The soldiers involved belonged to the native administration, the Jewish Sanhedrin. It kept the people in line on behalf of the occupying power, ensuring the Jews had a fair degree of liberty for their faith. And of course that the Jewish leaders remained in their favoured positions!

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  108. Tain Bo said:
    'Wolfsbane,
    I was just thinking the deck is stacked against me on this one as I don’t have the light in me or god on my side. Usually I try and avoid religious argument but on this debate I have no problem as I believe you are a man of faith and what I may say is nothing personal against you or your beliefs.'

    Thank you, my friend. I'm glad to debate with honest folk, no matter how deeply we may disagree on issues.

    'It is interesting to me and educational reading your perspective I appreciate you taking the time and hopefully the friendly banter will continue and not lead to any hard feelings.'

    Same here.

    'Religion is dodgy territory and I am sure all Christians would view my opinion as heretical blasphemy but I fail to grasp the idea of the light and the way and the magical properties involved this mystical force avoids me.'

    That's perfectly understandable. I too was once ignorant of God and spiritual matters. We all start out that way.

    'All the best'

    And you!

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  109. Sarah Heaton said:

    'Wolfsbane, i really don't know. I wasn't throwing the gauntlet down - i just wondered if you'd seen that article and thought you might be interested. I can't debate the New Testament with you, or anyone, because i'm not familiar with it.'

    Sure. Thanks again for the article.

    'For what it's worth, i do believe that Jesus was a real person,'

    That's a reasonable belief in the light of history.

    'and i do believe he was a son of God, but no more or less than you, Tain Bo, or Wolfsbane, or Frankie, are the son of God'

    You are making a theological assumption there, about Jesus not being the Son of God. I can see why you might say you have no reason to think Him so - but how can you say He cannot be?

    '- and that is assuming that there is a God, but i'm not certain there is. But if there is, i think he must be a father to us all.'

    He is father to us all, in the sense that He created us all. But since the rebellion(Fall), none can claim Him as Father who do not forsake their rebellion and turn to Him.

    'No offense intended to anyone.'

    None taken, my friend. Honest folk can debate vital issues without taking offence at the views of others. I mean, for example, an atheist must, if he is honest, hold that Christians are deluded in their beliefs about God. And a Christian must hold the atheist to be blinded by Satan in their view of God. They can both respect each other, however, as fellow humans entitled to their own ideas.

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  110. Tain Bo said:
    'Frankie,
    there is good reason people or individuals went about yarning chances are they were illiterate you would assume if gods son Jesus was here to spread the good word god would have give him the gift of writing and not the gab.'

    Jesus' ministry was for some 3.5 years only. In that time He taught the crowds, but mostly the disciples. He did not have to communicate with the world outside Israel, so preaching rather than writing served its purpose.

    When he left this world, and the message was sent to all the world, then it became necessary to have it written in the same way as the OT Scripture was written. The disciples wrote not only the relevant history of Jesus, but also the doctrines and practises He revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. This became the NT Scripture.

    'We take reading and writing for granted today but back then few had the talent of writing and they were not the common folk so it is safe to assume Jesus and his disciples didn’t do any writing.'

    They wrote when they needed to do so. The Jewish people were not barbarians. They had a long history of writing behind them.

    'As for scribes we run into a problem with them writing down second, third hand accounts doing their job and handing over the draft to their boss who gives it the once over and says, nah, this should say that and that should say this and when happy there we have it.
    Down the years it gets reworked and changes languages which alters translation from the original all the way through to today.'

    Yes, copies are prone to error - even we on our PC often omit words or put down mistaken ones. The problems are not insurmountable, however. Multiple copies were written and widely dispersed, so that we can compare the copies and be sure of the overwhelming accuracy of the text - that it represents the originals.

    'Logic is always brushed aside with it is the mystery of god only man would think about turning water into wine and were drink is involved yarns grow legs.'

    What is the problem with supplying a need? The Bridal party had run out of wine, and Jesus used the occasion to reveal His power. Perfectly logical to me.

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  111. Tain Bo said:
    'It is the name game it highly unlikely that his name was Jesus that comes from the Greek translation of the Hebrew Yoshua or Yahushua or as we know it Joshua. The Greek word Iesous and later the Latin Iesus and not a big change in English remove the letter I and add the J and that is the simple version of the name game.'

    Correct! But no one Christian has ever claimed otherwise. We know 'Jesus' is the result of the Greek/Latin change to English. We have the same today with, say, Paris:
    Paris (Azeri, French, German, Norwegian, Portuguese, Piedmontese, Romanian, Swedish, Tagalog*, Turkish), Parigi (Italian), Paras Scottish Gaelic*, Bārīs (Arabic), Lutetia Parisiorum (Latin), Paräis (Luxembourgish), Páras (Irish), Pari - パリ (Japanese)*, Pari/P’ari - 파리 (Korean), Paries (Limburgish), Pariġi (Maltese), Pariis (Estonian), Pariisi (Finnish), Parijs (Dutch), París (Catalan, Spanish, Icelandic),...

    'The simple reason removing the Hebrew name works out well in Christian terms they get to claim him as the messiah.'

    Not at all. 'Jesus' = 'Joshua' not 'Messiah'. 'Christ' is the Greek term for 'Messiah'.

    'If there is a god then I would guess he give up on earthlings a long time ago.'

    No, He is patiently working out His plan to save His people from their sins:
    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

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  112. Tain Bo said:
    'I would agree if there is a god and we are of his/her making all should be equal'

    We are all equal - all sinners by nature. None of us has any natural merit to commend ourselves to God.

    But God has chosen to show mercy to many of these undeserving sinners. He sent His Son to pay for their sins Himself, so that they would be reconciled to God and spend eternity with Him.

    'but even in the one god world there are many one gods and we all are not so equal and the divisions within divisions create even more one gods which is not unlike pagans and many gods.'

    Many false gods, one true God.

    'Head scratching time what version of one god is true the simple answer is the one that fits.'

    If God fitted the sinner's agenda, all would belief in Him. They don't, and make for themselves gods of their own imagination.

    How does one go about finding the one true God? Look for one that could make the magnificent universe around us; one whose word is confirmed by our conscience (even when we don't like the reminder). Then the one who opens out eyes to see the Truth when we call on Him to do so.

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  113. frankie said:
    'Going back to the bible... Too many thing have been lost in translation, twisted, tweaked and re-edited to know what's the truth. At best they give an idea of what life was like 2,000 + years ago. Nothing more or less.'

    You don't know that, frankie. You are just buying into the conspiracy-historians and liberal theologians who don't like the facts we have. Honest scholarship doesn't make any such claims.

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  114. Wolfsbane,

    from the book of John: So Judas came to the grove guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief of priests.

    The loping of an ear would have been hostile and would have been met with the same. Why would the arresting officials remain passive the simple answer is there was no violence in the garden. An attack on the officials would have give them reason to end the lives of Jesus and those with him in the garden but that wouldn’t work as at best Jesus would be a martyr as the crucifixion would never have happened.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Wolf,
    I'm not knocking your belief, or poking fun at you for believing.. But even you've admitted that your version of Christianity is a hybrid..

    What about other monotheistic religions who don't believe in Jesus but believe in God.. Are they wrong?

    ReplyDelete
  116. Wolfesbane,
    With all due respect, how is it possible to have a scholar's opinion on Christianity when scholars who disagreed with the doctrine were executed? I have no problem with your beliefs, but i don't like a distortion of history. Christianity, Baptist or otherwise would not exist without the aggression of the Roman empire. You can interpret written words anyway you like, but history will remain history. The fact you think God, the master of creation, favours one interpretation of a book commisioned by the Flavius/Piso dynasty as the true servants of God is soul destroying.

    ReplyDelete
  117. spare a thought for us who have to wade through this before hitting the publish button. Willie McCrea or somebody must have a site where this is standard fare.

    If comments on this thread are late going up it is not because I think religion is bollix and the Christian god a bloodthirsty monster, but that there are other things taking up my time.

    Still, feel free. Hopefully this blog belongs to us all.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Wolfsbane,

    I am still working my way out of Egypt but getting closer to answering. I have a fascination with the origins of language and how they evolved and why many fell out of fashion or were lost in the sands of time though that would be a different argument with its own roadblocks and problems.

    Amen, is the same as Amum or Amon which ties in with the Hebrew emunah the word game gets tricky with translation and the modern English Bible is a world away from the original.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anthony,

    I did spare a thought of having to wade through this I assumed readers would have given it a miss when the religious bit went on.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Tain,

    they may as well be talking about unicorns and mermaids for all it means to me. The minute the bible is mentioned I think of toilet paper, cigarette papers and feet warmers from the days of the blanket. But I guess it goes with the turf of running a blog. All views are catered for. If someone wants to argue for the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster we will carry it. Pastafarians and Satanists have the same rights to their beliefs as Christians, Muslims, Jews and whoever else is out there believing in magic.

    I guess that it tries my patience is neither here nor there. We provide a service and have to honour it or get off the field of play.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Decoding the Past - UFOs in the Bible

    Tain... It's (OT) full of Grey's. And I don't mean area's like 51...

    ReplyDelete
  122. Wolfsbane, you said to me "You are making a theological assumption there, about Jesus not being the Son of God" in spite of me definitely saying "...i do believe he was a son of God, but no more or less than you... etc..."

    I didn't make a theological assumption and i'm not certain you really listened to what i was trying to say.

    I think this thread is getting a little out of hand. People are splitting hairs so it could go on ad infinitum.

    I strongly believe that everyone should have the right to air their opinions, that is why i love TPQ, and although i respect everyones opinions i do believe that David Higgins is the true voice of reason here on this particular thread. Everything else mentioned here is historical and open to opinion and interpretation- which is absolutely fine, but surely it is what is happening right now, today, that really matters. Children in South Sudan, and a thousand other places, are starving to death, freezing cold, beaten, terrorised, hungry, thirsty etc while we sit very comfortably and secure in our warm, well stocked homes making judgments and explaining our "take" on things.

    Since this thread started thousands of children have died. Surely God would be more concerned about that, and what we intend to do about it, than our interpretations of history.

    Best wishes to all.

    ReplyDelete
  123. frankie said:

    'What I mean Wolf by a freak of nature. 25% of me thinks Darwin was on the right track but 75% thinks aliens tweaked ape DNA with their DNA..and kept tweaking things until they settled on 'humans'.'

    Glad to see you at least find the Design Argument more compelling than the Nothing Gave Rise to Everything Argument.

    'The OT say's the same thing only it says the fallen angels had sex with humans and made giants.'

    No, the OT teaches God made all life, including Man, originally. The origin of the 'giants' was possibly from the possession of women by demons, although commentators differ on the meaning here of 'sons of God'. Some think it refers to the line of Seth. I find the demon argument more persuasive.

    'Going back on an earlier point about 'playing the field' I said I've too much love inside and I like to spread it around etc (going forth and multiplying ).. You said 'one man, one woman'..What about these god fearing Christians who are swingers and preach about god...?'

    They're hypocrites. Anyone can fall into sin, but the cases you and I see seem to be of men who lived a lie, practised immorality rather than merely fell the once. Evil men.

    'I know what the bible say's a heretic is.. The Taliban call non believers like me an infidel.. Basically the same..'

    We are infidels, from the perspective of the Taliban. We don't believe in their god. But heretic is a bit more - the distortion of the faith, rather than a denial of it. I am an infidel regards Irish Republicanism; Gerry and Marty are heretics, to the traditionalists.

    'How do I know God didn't put pen to paper.., Easy, everything that is written about god every book etc say's it was man who wrote what god is meant to have said to him... Why isn't there a book of God? There is the book of Job, Enoch, at least 8 Gospels....'

    I misunderstood you when you said, 'God didn't write anything'. I thought you meant He did not cause anything to be written. Christianity has never said God physically wrote down anything except the Ten Commandments. We have always said He inspired men by His Spirit to write exactly what He wanted them to write. They wrote in their own words, but He supervised their choices so that only the words He wanted appeared.

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  124. David Higgins said:

    'I am not going to engage in a religious debate, people believe what they believe. One thing you said caught my eye. You said we live in an earthly paradise because we have more than we can eat etc, but that is not the case for the majority of humans on this planet'

    True.

    'and i know that's your point about the benefits of capitalism but what kind of god permits this?'

    God doesn't say why He permitted sin to enter in the first place, nor why He tolerates it to such an extent. He does tell us He will punish it all exactly as it deserves in the Day of Judgement. And daily He restrains evil by judgements in this world. Men are allowed to go so far, then He breaks their power.

    'What kind of god elevates a section of his own creation above another?'

    We live in a sinful world and God is free to make some rich and others not. Sinners have no call on how God orders this world.

    But the sin of many of the rich comes in their means of getting and staying rich. The cries of their victims are heard and an account will be given.

    'If they are the omnipotent creations, is there behaviour not under his control?'

    Yes, all our behaviour is subject to His will. He permits sinners to sin many times, but also stops them sinning likewise. If we were all able to do as we liked, the world would have ended in blood and fire long ago.

    'I know you are going to tell me about god giving his creations freewill but he kind of negates that by slaughtering those whose freewill didn't correspond with his will.'

    No, I don't argue that God is bound by our 'free-will'. God decides how much of our sinful will is permitted and how much not. And indeed He does punish those who defy His holy will, in this life often and in the next always.

    'If you take the bible as a purely academic study god is a lunatic, no different from the muslim god you love to slander.'

    If God was not our creator but just a man, then we would have grounds for calling him a lunatic. How could a man be infinitely holy and the rest of us guilty because of our disobedience to him? But God is the Creator and He is the absolute standard of holiness, goodness, righteousness. It is not lunacy for Him to hate evil and punish it. It would be wicked of Him not to do so.

    'The next time time god shows you the way ask him to show the same compassion to the children of Sudan who die for the want of water.'

    The suffering in this world suffer because we are sinners. God did not make us to suffer or die. Our first parents brought that upon themselves and their descendants. We are all sinners and suffer the consequences of living in a fallen world. Our calling is to help our fellow-man, not question God's purpose in allowing them to suffer.

    ReplyDelete
  125. frankie said:
    'What I'd said is the Irish and English lang are very different and so is Irish and English culture.'

    There are differences, I agree. But not so vast as to make a common national identity impossible. You make the same argument, I take it, for me joining a UI.

    'The work ethics are the same the world over. I mean by that they work to live and support themselves and their families. Not how different countries treat their workers or the ethics their employers have...'

    I doubt it. Japan, for example, has a very different attitude to work than Britain. Sure, many folk work only so far as they need to to stay alive and be entertained. But others have a sense of duty in work too.

    '[Ulster is my primary nation].
    The complete nine counties or the loyalist six (which isn't Ulster but a state)....'

    The Six Counties - That's my Ulster. I'm content for the ROI to have it's own Ulster; and of course your UI would have a different Ulster. The boundaries have changed more than once, so we cannot forbid any piece of the Nine County Ulster from being called Ulster.

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  126. frankie said:
    '[And I'm not a royalist. Being British does not require one to be a royalist]
    Bring British means you are a subject of the British crown whether you like it or not. I'm not a subject.'

    I am a subject, but not subject. I am also a citizen. 'Subject' is an ancient term for a modern relationship to the Crown. The final authority of our State exists with the People, expressed in Parliament. The Crown, like the Lords, is a mechanism to signify a vital constitutional clash - their persistent opposition to the Commons would tell us a new relationship needs to be implemented by Parliament. A Republic, perhaps.


    '[My spiritual and ethnic forefathers executed a king for treason.]
    And your national anthem is God save your queen which you stand up to.. I don't..'

    I stand for our national anthem, which thanks God for our sovereign and asks Him to protect her in her role. Her role is to protect and defend the People's rights. Do you say the British who were left in the Irish Free State/ROI should stand for its national anthem?

    '[Who knows - but my point was that the argument you use for a UI works just as well or better for a re-united British Isles. I'm not saying it will happen - just that your argument makes one as likely as the other.]
    Why would I or any other Irishman want to give up our nationality to be British? Why????'

    Why would I or any other Ulsterman want to give up our nationality to be Irish? Why???? Same reasons for both our cases - if it better served our civil and religious liberty and basis needs.

    ReplyDelete
  127. frankie said:
    ''Wolf we both know why Ireland is in a mess. Part of the reason is bailing out the banks, before that Haughey giving away oil & gas rights for brown envelopes stuffed full of cash.. Here is some homework Wolf, check out what was Michael Noonan doing at the Bilderberg meeting in Virginia a few yrs back..'

    I bear in mind the conspiracy theories about the Secret Elite who run the world - but on what we can see on the surface, Ireland did not get rich on its own resources. The EU pumped the money in, and the local elite used it - whatever they didn't pocket for themselves - to stimulate the economy. You say Ireland has a fortune in oil and gas. Possibly - but I'd like to see the figures for how it can be brought to the treasury.

    'Wolf you'd be free from religion.. You can still watch TV, go to bars & club, invite friends over to your house and live as normal.. But no religious places of worship. They'd be turned into schools, accommodation etc...'

    And if I or your local RC bishop told you that you would be free from sinful temptations, free to go to church and have nice walks...but no pubs, bookies, brothels, theatres, etc., you would be attracted to that sort of UI?

    'The British Royal family have more sleaze than the whole of Westminster. Prince Andy use to hang around with hookers, Charlie is a bit gay, Uncle Louis was a kiddie fiddler and I haven't gotten to the bottom of what Liz and Phil done with 10 kids in Canada.. although they (kids) kissed her feet by all accounts and didn't come back...'

    Perhaps - I've heard all the conspiracy stuff before. But little proof. Having a Biblical view of our sinful nature, nothing would surprise me, especially among the rich and powerful. But what difference is this to the scandals in the republican leadership? Do you think they would not be up to the same tricks if they were in power, seeing some of what we know they have already done? No, a corrupt leadership is hardly grounds for getting a new national identity.

    'And if you are ok with a British republic, then by the same logic you shouldn't have any problem with any republic.. Like and Irish one..'

    My British republic is one that upholds our traditional British values. There are many Republics which neither you or I would ever want to be members of - North Korea, etc.

    'Tell that to the millions of Africans who starve each day because their continent is exploited by the west.....'

    It was the living standards WE enjoy to which I referred.

    '[For us in the West, I meant. The capitalist West. Compared to the non-capitalist nations, we do very well.]
    Tell that to the people of Derry, west Belfast, Manchester... Not me.'

    I do. When I compare their lot to those of folk in India, Africa, etc., I find our people have a grand life. That's why so many risk their lives coming here.

    'Watch it again and some of his other videos and talks... You deffo got the wrong end of the stick..'

    OK.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Tain Bo said:
    'from the book of John: So Judas came to the grove guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief of priests.
    The loping of an ear would have been hostile and would have been met with the same. Why would the arresting officials remain passive the simple answer is there was no violence in the garden.'

    They remained passive due to the illegality of their actions. And their fear in light of what happened at their entry (and I'm not referring to Peter's foolish action).
    John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”
    5 They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
    Jesus said to them, “I am He.” And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. 6 Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
    7 Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?”
    And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
    8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,”


    'An attack on the officials would have give them reason to end the lives of Jesus and those with him in the garden but that wouldn’t work as at best Jesus would be a martyr as the crucifixion would never have happened.'

    Seems to me a quiet execution in the garden, resisting a patrol of officers, would have been a much easier option than having to persuade the Romans to execute Him in public. And surely a Roman execution would have been more likely to create a martyr than an internal squelching of opponents.

    ReplyDelete
  129. frankie said:

    'I'm not knocking your belief, or poking fun at you for believing.. But even you've admitted that your version of Christianity is a hybrid..'

    Where did I say that???

    'What about other monotheistic religions who don't believe in Jesus but believe in God.. Are they wrong?'

    Yes. Their god is not the God revealed in the Bible. Of course, logically, we could all be wrong - or one of us could be right. But we can't all be right.

    ReplyDelete
  130. David Higgins said:
    'Wolfesbane,
    With all due respect, how is it possible to have a scholar's opinion on Christianity when scholars who disagreed with the doctrine were executed?'

    No scholar in the past few hundred years has been executed for their opinion on Christianity, as far as I'm aware. Not counting those executed by Marxists and Islamists, of course.

    'I have no problem with your beliefs, but i don't like a distortion of history.'

    Me too.

    'Christianity, Baptist or otherwise would not exist without the aggression of the Roman empire.'

    Really? The aggression of the Roman Empire against Christianity failed to extinguish us for three centuries, so we did not need its help to survive.

    'You can interpret written words anyway you like, but history will remain history.'

    Indeed. Facts always trump interpretations.

    'The fact you think God, the master of creation, favours one interpretation of a book commisioned by the Flavius/Piso dynasty as the true servants of God is soul destroying.'

    The fact is the Bible was in existence long before any secular power commissioned any interpretation. The OT was in existence before the Roman Empire existed, and the NT existed before AD100. Later copies and disputes over what constituted the NT were influenced by the Empire - but the OT and NT have existed long before that.

    http://www.dts.edu/read/wallace-new-testament-manscript-first-century/

    ReplyDelete
  131. AM said:
    'spare a thought for us who have to wade through this before hitting the publish button. Willie McCrea or somebody must have a site where this is standard fare.'

    I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

    I just wanted to do justice to the questioners. If they ask a sensible question that is in my field, I try to answer.

    BUT let then feel free to end the thread - I won't regard it as an admission of defeat, just of their weariness!

    ReplyDelete
  132. Tain Bo said

    'I have a fascination with the origins of language and how they evolved and why many fell out of fashion or were lost in the sands of time though that would be a different argument with its own roadblocks and problems.'

    Yes, a fascinating study!

    'Amen, is the same as Amum or Amon which ties in with the Hebrew emunah the word game gets tricky with translation'

    A helpful resource:
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H543&t=KJV

    'and the modern English Bible is a world away from the original.'

    Depends on which version you use. There are several good translations.

    ReplyDelete
  133. I can imagine David giving it the Al Pacino after your last post Wolf. Bottom line for me Wolf is this, if JC existed he was a dissident.. And if the OT is correct then there has to be women gods.. Stands to reason we were made in their image after all..Personally I'm going for alien intervention..

    The origin of the 'giants' was possibly from the possession of women by demons,

    Always blame the good ladies.. Like the original sin story.

    God doesn't say why He permitted sin to enter in the first place, nor why He tolerates it to such an extent. He does tell us He will punish it all exactly as it deserves in the Day of Judgement. And daily He restrains evil by judgements in this world. Men are allowed to go so far,

    How far does your god allow things to go.. Child rape, murder, chopping of heads.. leaving millions to starve.. Keep your god Wolf.. I'll stick with Swinging demons

    ReplyDelete
  134. Wolfsbane,

    carry on as you are. Moderating it, for us, goes with the turf.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Sarah Heaton said:
    'Wolfsbane, you said to me "You are making a theological assumption there, about Jesus not being the Son of God" in spite of me definitely saying "...i do believe he was a son of God, but no more or less than you... etc..." I didn't make a theological assumption and i'm not certain you really listened to what i was trying to say.'

    Being the Son of God is not the same as being a son of God. You denied Jesus was the former, classifying Him with the rest of us.

    'Everything else mentioned here is historical and open to opinion and interpretation- which is absolutely fine, but surely it is what is happening right now, today, that really matters. Children in South Sudan, and a thousand other places, are starving to death, freezing cold, beaten, terrorised, hungry, thirsty etc while we sit very comfortably and secure in our warm, well stocked homes making judgments and explaining our "take" on things.'

    Our take on things determines what we do about them. If our take is Marxist, we might think that organising a revolution in Sudan to set up a People's Republic is the answer. If our take is Western hedonism, we will leave the Sudanese to sort it our themselves, without troubling us. If our take is secular humanist, we may support or organise relief efforts; if our take is Christian, we will support or organise relief efforts as well as bring them the gospel. And so on.

    'Since this thread started thousands of children have died. Surely God would be more concerned about that, and what we intend to do about it, than our interpretations of history.'

    If we don't learn from history, we often repeat it. Sudan hasn't happened out of the blue. Doing the right something is what's needed, not just doing something.

    'Best wishes to all.'

    And to you.

    ReplyDelete
  136. frankie:not knocking your belief, or poking fun at you for believing.. But even you've admitted that your version of Christianity is a hybrid..'

    Wolfsbane: Where did I say that???

    At a guess on the 15th Septemeber 2014 at 6:26 PM when you replied to this

    Frankie:Wolf what branch of Protestantism do you follow.. Anglianism, Baptists, 7th day-ers.. Presbyterian, Free Presbyterian, Lutheranism, Calvinism.....?'

    Wolfsbane:I'm a Baptist, with Calvinist theology.

    Reads like a hybrid. Again for the record I'm not a catholic. I was many moons ago in a previous life. But not today. I don't like religion anymore than AM likes cock sucking Jews

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anthony,

    the end game is predictable the same old result. I enjoy the history and mythology but after that I try and avoid it. The bible did have some practical use either for a holy smoke or holy crap. On my bookshelf I have both catholic and protestant versions I noticed the other week they are sandwiched between Dracula and the Marquis de Sade.

    My apology to whomever has the chore of giving it the once over and to Sean for straying a world away from his article.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Frankie,

    will watch that again but there are more plausible explanations of the earthly kind. In the realm of possibility it could work after all god is not of this earth.

    ReplyDelete
  139. frankie said:
    'I can imagine David giving it the Al Pacino after your last post Wolf. Bottom line for me Wolf is this, if JC existed he was a dissident..'

    He sure was. Not a political dissident though. A religious dissident:
    John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

    'And if the OT is correct then there has to be women gods.. Stands to reason we were made in their image after all..Personally I'm going for alien intervention..'

    The image of God does not refer to our physical appearance - for God had no physical body when Man was created. Men and women bear God's image - though now marred by sin. That's why it is so wicked to murder another person.

    '[The origin of the 'giants' was possibly from the possession of women by demons,]
    Always blame the good ladies.. Like the original sin story.'

    Only women give birth, so the 'giants' had no other means of arrival.

    'How far does your god allow things to go.. Child rape, murder, chopping of heads.. leaving millions to starve..'

    Indeed - all the works of sinful men, for which they will give account. Would you be happy if He intervened now and prevented all sin?

    'Keep your god Wolf.. I'll stick with Swinging demons'

    That will be a fatal call, if you don't change your mind. Good news is, God still calls you to repentance and promises to pardon you and give you a home in heaven.

    But one day that offer will end.

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  140. Wolfsbane,

    I am still playing catch up though will answer it is interesting and hasn’t descended into abuse and is unusually friendly as far as religious debate goes.

    ReplyDelete
  141. frankie said:
    'frankie:not knocking your belief, or poking fun at you for believing.. But even you've admitted that your version of Christianity is a hybrid..'
    Wolfsbane: Where did I say that???'
    'At a guess on the 15th Septemeber 2014 at 6:26 PM when you replied to this
    Frankie:Wolf what branch of Protestantism do you follow.. Anglianism, Baptists, 7th day-ers.. Presbyterian, Free Presbyterian, Lutheranism, Calvinism.....?'
    Wolfsbane:I'm a Baptist, with Calvinist theology.'

    I misunderstood your meaning about hybrids. I thought you meant my Christianity was a mix of Judaism/Gnosticism/NT Christianity.

    Now I see your meaning, I accept it is hybrid - in the sense that Congregational ecclesiology and Presbyterian soteriology meet in Calvinistic Baptists.

    But the important thing is that we conform to the Bible's teaching. The Congregational, Presbyterian and Baptist sections are all part of one united Church.

    'Again for the record I'm not a catholic. I was many moons ago in a previous life. But not today. I don't like religion anymore than AM likes cock sucking Jews'

    Yes, your bad experience seems to have put you off all religious claims. But you must know that logically the failure of one or even many does not disprove the reality of all.

    I didn't pick up on AM's dislike of homosexual Jews. I find that difficult to believe.

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  142. Wolfesbane,
    That's it for me on this thread. I like to get a Christians perspective on numerous issues and I believe Christian groups do a lot of good in a whole range of causes. I think it is easy to highlight fundamental Christians wrongdoings without acknowledging the good at the heart of the Christian message. One of the problems for me is when Christians try to explain why god allows sin in some cases but punishes it in others, it all becomes a bit exhausting. I also believe the human experience, is just that an experience, and getting all your understanding of the wonders of the universe from one book is a little bit of a missed opportunity. Who knows maybe your right, Maybe god created the universe, put all life on this tiny planet, created them sinful, then punished them for being sinful, sent his son down to die horrifically so sins could be forgiven, then decided that out of the billions of his creations only Baptist are getting into heaven as the rest of us just didn't get it. Seems to me much ado about nothing. Anyway it is a subject we are not going to agree on, so i'll leave it at that. All the best.

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  143. frankie, my apologies - I had not clicked on the link before commenting on AM's dislikes. I see it has nothing to do with gay sex.

    Yes, I too would share his dislike of this part of their circumcision. A lot of rabbinical thought and practice is vile.

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  144. Tain Bo,

    just carry on. Everybody is welcome to debate it and as you say it is not a degeneration into name calling as often happens with debates around religion.

    We host a site and what comes goes with the turf.

    But on a personal level I have as much interest in quotes from the bible as I have in the anatomy of unicorns. Its just not for me. And with so much coming through I can no longer keep track of what went where!

    ReplyDelete
  145. That will be a fatal call, if you don't change your mind. Good news is, God still calls you to repentance and promises to pardon you and give you a home in heaven.

    Wolfsbane...........Frankie

    Wolf, keep religion away from me.. I can just as easy quote the bible and it will say the very opposite as to what you say. Let's stick to historical fact and we'll advance. At the minute you are going around in circles and trying to convert adults who don't want saving from not only a christian god but any god..

    What I'm going to do is make coffee.. and the points you made about Ulster being six counties, Irish natural resources etc.. I'll write a piece and cover them.. You are mixing politics and religion and using circular reasoning to explain yourself and making me dizzy in the process...

    @Tain... Let's say I believe there is a Santa Claus

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  146. David Higgins said:

    'That's it for me on this thread...'

    OK, my friend. Glad to have had your input.

    For the sake of the others, I'll just clear up a couple of misunderstandings you mentioned:
    'Maybe god created the universe, put all life on this tiny planet, created them sinful,'

    No, He created them sinless, perfect. They chose to sin.

    'then punished them for being sinful, sent his son down to die horrifically so sins could be forgiven, then decided that out of the billions of his creations only Baptist are getting into heaven as the rest of us just didn't get it.'

    No, many others than Baptist will be in heaven - as I said plainly before, true Christianity has many divisions, but those are secondary issues that do not break our true unity in Christ.

    'All the best.'

    And to you, David.

    ReplyDelete
  147. frankie said:
    'Wolf, keep religion away from me..'

    You asked, I answered.

    'I can just as easy quote the bible and it will say the very opposite as to what you say.'

    Only if you ignore the context, etc. We can all do that with all communications, secular or religious.

    'Let's stick to historical fact and we'll advance.'

    I'm all for historical fact, but if you make a spiritual assertion, expect a spiritual answer.

    'At the minute you are going around in circles and trying to convert adults who don't want saving from not only a christian god but any god..'

    I'm certainly taking the opportunity of your questions and assertions to point out the good news of Christ. That is a direct answer to some of your questions and assertions.

    'What I'm going to do is make coffee..'

    Sorry we aren't face to face and sharing a cup.

    'and the points you made about Ulster being six counties, Irish natural resources etc.. I'll write a piece and cover them..'

    OK.

    'You are mixing politics and religion and using circular reasoning to explain yourself and making me dizzy in the process...'

    Again I point out that it was not me who raised the nature of religion on this thread. I have responded to others.

    Indeed, it may have been your post - 10:07 PM, September 11, 2014 - that kicked off the discussion on the validity of religions: 'What does religion do? What purpose does it have? Apart from create division, hate, cover up abuse and screw people...and make war.. '

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  148. wolfesbane, i took a nice long summer break from internet, glad to see u are well and happy, and if u dont mind me saying - i scanned a few comments on this thread and have to say - you are the mother of all prods. i wud luv to go out on the razz with u and frankie sometime. and mackers, i have a nice little book about unicorns that i'll send up to you.

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  149. grouch:

    Good to see you back. I'd be glad to share your company and toast your health with a glass of buttermilk any time! Frankie and Mackers would be great company too!

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  150. Wolfsbane,

    I believe if the Brits had true intentions of leaving they would have done so. We are still part of the union and the Brits have still not left. I believe I am being fair in saying they had no intentions of giving up “their” claim in Ireland.

    The Brits claim to the land now is via the original planters’ now native sons and daughters of the land with different traditions and beliefs than the other natives the rebellious ones that the Brits frown upon. It would make sense that the English would manipulate the rivals in order for them to hold onto what they want.

    I honestly don’t believe it was going to be permitted past the stage of threat London’s concern was not on the issue of Ireland but the greater looming instability in Europe. A rebellion in Ireland would tie up troops and resources they would be aware that the Island would be open for foreign armies and that risk of a war in the Brits back door.

    I do not doubt the UVF would have got wired in had the Brits washed their hands of the Island. Many would probably have fought to the death but with all being not so quiet on the western front I don’t see the vision going past threat as that would put the other Brits in a bind they would have no choice other than crush any rebellion not in the interests of either people but for their own interest.


    True it takes little to start a war and considerably more to maintain one with a clear objective on how to win one and the more difficult part of ending one. We can call the threat legitimate but again I don’t see the vision in it. I would still maintain a UVF rebellion would have lead to a UI.

    I don’t see how “democracy” was forcing a UI the Irish were not massing an army the issue was being bantered about in London they would have the final say on it. The threat of war was directed at the Irish not the deciders in London so the threat was anti-democracy and pro-rebellion the same old line of being loyal when it suits position but not so loyal if position is being shifted.

    In the end it is all part of that not so equal English union the Scots, Welsh, and northern Irish all share the same standard as being beneath the English they are the ultimate deciders, unionists and loyalists would be 2nd rate and the non unionists 3rd rate subjects.

    I would believe practicing Christians should not be subjects to man but to god and maintain the garden the way he decided and not the way ruler’s decided. If god exists I doubt he would have interest in geographical borders or states

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  151. Wolfsbane,

    yes, in a war the victor takes the spoils but there was no war in this case only the threat of starting one. That would be the original problem foreigners taking land that is and was not theirs for the taking. And by foreigners I mean the English.

    I don’t see how it evaporates down to fighting for “our” rights. Would the outcome have been different if not one son of the Island never seen the western front?
    I am not questioning the courage or foolishness of those who fought in the Great War all sides were fighting for their rights and beliefs and all sides displayed equal courage or foolishness.

    As you believe the UVF were willing to fight for their rights would they have fought against the British soldiers or just the Irish people? Why threaten to start a war in Ireland and then end up in the trenches fighting a war alongside those threatened. It seems democracy was the victim as the rights of a majority were lost in the fog. I don’t see how it works first a planned uprising against democracy and then in the trenches dying for the democracy that was under threat from the UVF.

    I am unsure how if the Germans had won it would be a disaster for mankind again kings and castles trading one ruler for another.

    Was the reformation a disaster for mankind? With its equal indulgence in religious slaughter and persecution wasn’t this all to establish a new “truer version” of belief. Would a German win in the Great War remove your rights to be Protestant would they favour Catholics, no? I assume the rights you speak of are to be and remain British Protestants I don’t see how a bit of land is religious.
    I wouldn’t view our wee Island as Catholic or Protestant nor heathen the inhabitants are religious and religion has always been territorial which is political rather than religious.

    I agree Hitler was not a true Christian and not unlike the Protestant threat against a UI who also used it by similar means. The Reich was filled from top to bottom with Catholics and Protestants. On their belt buckle “Gott mit Uns” God is with us, no division by design as the godless communists were a great threat to Christianity. It would be safe to assume that many soldiers were faithful to their Christian beliefs and died fighting for their rights

    State religion is still religion would the Protestants who threatened rebellion not in agreement with remaining part of the British Protestant State?
    How can we determine how many people of all faiths were not devout in their beliefs the true religion seems to suggest that only certain soldiers could be considered true believers.
    Tolkien better known today for films and less for his high fantasy works was a devout Catholic an officer in the BA would he be any less considering he was fighting for the same rights?

    Fortunately Adolf was only a great orator and not a military tactician his ego and megalomania would be key in his demise. The Battle of Britain knocked more than the wind out of his sail. Declaring war on America and invading Russia only sounded reasonable in his deluded mind failing to invade Britain any reasonable leader would not expand their war if he had stuck with being a politician and let his competent generals do their job the outcome may well have been different the war may well have been shorter.

    The only great surprise being they never managed to bump him off.
    As for the Armistice they knew exactly what they were doing and the short term was weakening any possible future threat,

    As for our different mind-sets we need a change though I am not convinced our politicians would encourage straying too far from the old ways. If nothing else but to avoid a repeat of 69 but that’s a tricky card always up our politicians sleeves.
    As for Christians they need to put god before state and not use belief as part of a political argument.

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  152. Wolfsbane,

    God can change the rules as in clearing the slate with a new covenant is that god saying he blundered on the old one why would god be faulty on his original that makes him sound more human and prone to mistakes.

    Isn’t this just a clever way of snubbing the chosen people and pushing their deal with god into the margin?
    The promise was made to the chosen people I am not so sure they would agree with being snubbed and replaced by their own god.

    Perhaps I mistake the command but I didn’t include those with a baron womb or on the other side of that coin those with blank seed. I assume they get a bye ball or indeed those who chose not to reproduce for whatever reasons.
    The law makes perfect sense at the time as the population was far less not such a great idea today and on that the Catholic Church should be handing out condoms and contraceptives’ instead of those wee Jesus wafers.

    In Christian tradition marriage is in the presence of god and a lot of people take the tradition vow to god to make their union sacred.
    Just because one or the other or both can’t make their union work does not make breaking the promise before god any less excusable. Why not just exclude god from marriage.

    Agreed celibacy is an option but I assumed we were talking about those who stress they are devout and following the teachings of holy books.

    I believe a woman should have the right to decide and that is not based in religion, ethics, or morality but purely as it is her body. I would assume whatever the circumstances from poverty through to confusion or even just selfishness or victims of rape and incest they should have the choice.
    If they don’t want a baby and the responsibility chances are they might not be ideal mothers.

    Men should have a say on the issue but most men will give that the quiet nod of approval in private as they don’t want the responsibility either.
    Education is getting better but we still see young teens pushing prams not old enough to be wed.

    No, married people can have sex all day and night, well the younger ones could. I am saying those who follow faith and gods laws are supposed to reproduce if they can.
    That is given they don’t have faulty equipment the general idea of marriage is to grow a family and some adopt children for various reasons. Some turn to science to assist them in reproduction I see nothing wrong in that.

    Single people are free to do as they please from abstaining all the way through the spectrum if they decide they want kids but no wedding that is their choice.


    Yes, I am sure biblical law rattles more than a few cages I don’t have that problem as it not part of my life.
    I never thought about it that way, Frankie’s piece displays how muddy the waters are but the twisted are from the ground up.
    Not to mention this magic box is a nightmare for parents with all its madness a click away. Then perversion is also in history today it is just more available.

    I don’t see Christians uniting or agreeing on much their roots are firmly planted and the business of religion would be a great objector

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  153. Wolfsbane,

    we could say the same about the dominant religion in the north and its utter rejection and intolerance towards the minority religion.

    It is a pity that the labels of connivance stuck during the conflict instead of it being British/ unionists versus Irish republicans it was easier for the media to brand it a religious tribal war that doesn’t help the image of either religion after the fact.

    I agree there are believer’s I just was pointing out that religion being on the tap is more akin to the money changers in the temple.

    By mending fences I was not implying one side or the other should convert but it would make sense to unite under a Christian banner as it is essentially the same side of the coin.
    I agree there should be a mutual respect and understanding. Tolerate is one of those tricky words I would have said “accept” the obvious differences.

    Infighting amongst Christians only weakens the beliefs and usually ends in dwindling numbers and more divisions.

    You will have to give me a bit of room as I said I don’t normally engage in religious debate I say debate as I don’t feel it is an argument and I might not use the proper phrase or line.

    You are correct I should have asked how you know your version is true. Is there a noticeable difference between Protestant Baptists and non-Baptist Protestants? Just as on the Catholic tree there are many branches the Protestant tree has many branches also. Do you have any fundamental differences with say Pentecostal Protestants I think they are the ones that do the speaking in tongues and divine healing?

    I am not trying to be a smart arse as this exchange is interesting and I am gaining an understanding. It is a bit of a paradox trying to be respectful of your beliefs and being a heathen I understand much of what I say is blasphemy so I appreciate your patience on that score as a Priest would have me burning in hell.

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  154. sound wolfsbane, im off the sauce too but still enjoy the pub. just to warn you; i will try and convert you to gaelic saordonian marxist-lennonism.

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  155. Wolfsbane,

    the Sabbath we could go round in circles debating the histories of days of rest. It is just a commandment I am unsure how it is replaced with the new covenant.

    I am not following how god came first then pagans arose out of hostility. Europe was godless in biblical times; pagans of all sorts were worshiping everything but a one god. If god was already there first they kept that shy. I think the go forward and spread the good word would contradict what you say.
    Hostile pagans would have the dilemma of giving up their ways and beliefs but as history shows early Christians managed to survive and introduce the almighty one powerful god.

    Yes, Islam is a knockoff of a knockoff of the original chosen people but all are knockoffs of earlier belief systems pagan ways were cleverly woven into the tapestry of the one god.
    The pagan belief of birth death and rebirth is similar to Christ being born, dying and being reborn which is also a common theme today if I was to kill off my heathen ways and accept Christ I would be reborn.

    Polytheism must work or the people would change economics makes the world go round if they are content with their beliefs then what is wrong with that.

    I am not so sure much of the scriptures would have survived if it was not for the oral tradition.
    The gospel will survive as long as people believe though today’s Christians have their work cut out with societies pushing god to the side.

    How do you navigate the religious waters as the English seem a wee bit on the godless side do you think parliament will stand up and declare the Christian god is the true god.
    Will other religions be viewed as a threat to the Protestant way of life in Ulster? To be clear I am using the terms Protestant and Catholic respectfully referring to those who hold their conviction of faith and practice it and not the taigs and prods in name only as we know in that fishbowl god is nowhere to be seen.

    Do you consider the heathens and non-Christians as a threat to a protestant way of life? The heathens alone push Christianity to the margins if not completely of the page. The Catholics keep it on the page so are Catholics more acceptable than heathens considering they believe in god but not in the same terms as you.

    It appears the question of Islam or I should say British Islam may give British Christianity a run for their money. I don’t think Islam is on the rise but is now closer to home and more noticeable than before.
    I am fairly sure the Brits fear militant Islam more so than they feared the IRA.
    The possibility of a god war in the UK is feasible as we know they play by their own rules and ways.

    Are they clever enough to exploit the decline in Christianity to me it is all bunkers pure madness.

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  156. Wolfsbane,

    my question was what parent would leave their child abandoned to chance in a marsh within a few hours the local animals would be nosy enough to figure out if this crying infant was food or not.
    The story would hardly work if they just abandoned the infant and five minutes later the royals just happen to be hanging out in the same marsh and by chance find the child.

    Kill all Hebrew infant males again if that did happen I don’t see anyone ruthless enough to order it having a change of heart when his daughter brings home an infant.

    Adoption is not the case a Royal family would not adopt a commoner and as the story goes killing all Hebrew infants was not because these people were slaves but growing in number but even that is sketchy at best.

    The word slavery might be misleading and could apply in terms of freeing the Hebrews from the Egyptians’ beliefs system or false gods.

    In the time of Jacob and Joseph the Israelites settle in the land of Goshen they “settled” that does not mean they were rounded up by force and brought there. Obviously major differences in both peoples would lead to conflict NI would be a good model of that.

    The Egyptian prince Moses probably adopted the ways of the Hebrew and the local Hebrews welcomed having such a powerful convert turned prophet. That would explain why Moses had a free pass to go see a king not many royals would open their doors so freely.

    The shock and awe would have worked after one plague or was the Pharaoh not the brightest after 10 plagues the entire region would have converted to this more powerful god and scrapped their beliefs out of history.

    Slaves don’t get to acquire wealth or treasure and certainly would hold no weapons.

    The sin of the calf or as we call it the golden calf where would slaves find gold? And why would god in the first place give Moses a brother Aaron if the all knowing knew that Aaron would abandon the way.

    The bible itself would suggest these people were no slaves.

    So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him. 27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbour.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

    I would be certain that some might hold more than a grudge which may have lingered all the way to the Promised Land and a power play based in revenge Moses gets killed and could be justified as he was not a son of Israel but of Egypt. Human nature an eye for an eye same old story today.

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  157. Wolfsbane,

    the descendants of those “wicked nations” would probably disagree were they any less or more evil than any other nation or religion?

    God commands the destruction of these sinful nations sounds good in the terms of invading and taking other peoples lands. I don’t see it, would that same rule apply to the people in Gaza, well not the Christian ones but are they Christian enough?

    In that area it seems there are a lot of wicked people doing the same thing invading and butchering those that don’t follow their gods rule book which in turn blackens the view we have of Islam not that they actually believe but it is always handy to have a god or rule book on your side.

    I don’t listen to liberals I cannot say I am influenced by those who go to extremes to dispel the idea of a god as that seems to end up as an anti-religion of sorts and develops its own system. I hold no objections to historians and archaeologists; digging through history after all Troy was considered a mythical city. I don’t see any great reason to suggest certain people did not exist at that time.

    I am sure as history goes many people who may have been prominent in their time disappear or were erased from history. Since we are in that region the Egyptians’ had no problem wiping out memory of people they came to dislike for whatever reasons. I am not closed off to the thought of uncovering history if they found the Arch of the Covenant or the Spear of Destiny that would be amazing.

    The Shroud of Turin although not your cup of tea it has unique properties that cannot be replicated today it exists but no concrete theory on how or why I am not so interested in the religious side but it is a unique and interesting piece of history.

    I am not so sure on God handing his people over that makes god sound more human, war and invasion is a theme throughout history we still see god wars today can we explain war away as the will of god.
    Religion breeds sectarianism these are more the actions of man rather than a displeased god.
    Religions’ are subject to the same rules as Empires they rise and fall we are witnessing a decline in Christianity can it make a great come back, maybe if it has a greater enemy but the computer generations have the power of computers and laugh at us and our old gramophones and 2 channel telly’s.

    Although the web can be used to spread religion I doubt many youngsters would prefer to sit and study religion and be more inclined to knockabout on social media, YouTube or whatever the latest craze is and of course the not so Christian dark-side of the web and even into the sewer of the web.

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  158. Wolfsbane,

    abolishing the old covenant just sounds like dispensing with its Hebrew origins why would god give up his chosen people and trade it in for what eventually became Christian belief. Again that makes an all knowing god sound humanly confused and undecided.

    All that suggests is the Hebrews are not god’s chosen people and in a sense blames them for what is essentially gods mistake, well the Christian gods mistake, I doubt the Hebrews would agree.

    The Nazis would agree with that and their death camp history is scarier than the OT. We could say that god was up to his old trick of delivering these poor souls for disobeying his law into the hell on earth of the other Christian god’s making.

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  159. Wolfsbane,

    I know we didn’t change his name that was probably the Greeks, I am not 100% certain but I don’t think the J sound or letter was in use in Hebrew or Aramaic I think it became a letter in the English alphabet in the late 1600s or maybe early 1700s again not exactly sure In English we know him as Jesus but his name might have been Joshua plus it is not common so that is a bit suspect that one person in that region had a unique name.

    I also think it was around 300 hundred plus years ago the term Jew entered into the English lexicon.

    Yes, today we term them as Christians but historically neither was as it was not in existence. The word Messiah gets translated by ancient Greeks into Christos roughly meaning Anointed.
    The Hebrews would argue different as would the Muslim’s we have 3 contenders for the same one god but like Christians even they cannot agree.

    I could claim all 3 branches are interesting and riddled with their own versions of conspiracy though rationally the Jews are miles ahead since it is their history the other 2 could be considered weeds in that garden of truth trying to outgrow and strangle the original.

    Men do change and with their change so to changes their perception of god, god may not change but the evidence of man changing god is common amongst those who claim they understand the spoken or written word better religion is always on shaky ground and all factions of religions claim they are standing on the true solid ground of the rock.

    Which bible is the true one as they range from incomplete and partial bibles to complete bibles and we all know that dispute is going nowhere why not just one bible but it is good for business selling many copies of different versions?

    I think I will keep mythology in its place as if these mythological gods and superhuman along with magical creatures existed why do they not exist today. Easily explained away with Noah’s flood which is just a reworking of Gilgamesh that is not to say there were no floods but floods are common throughout history and today.

    Ancient Irish history does not matter I would disagree the history of mankind matters would you say ancient Hebrew history does not matter?

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  160. Wolfsbane,

    no, the metaphor would be the natural barrier on one side a different belief system and on the other side a new system and a promised land. The parting of the sea and closing it just simply means that system was left behind. The Promised Land was not the same as when they originally left. That may have been caused by famine and other hardships.

    The Egyptians’ had Atenism a version of monotheism under Akhenaton. The Pharaoh Amenhotep IV changed his name to Akhenaton with a city built of the same name with temples to a one god today known as Amarna.
    His plan was to rid the old gods and ways and replace them with one god. Egyptian records tell a probably more accurate account of the time. Atenism would be an influence in the other 3 contenders for one god and without doubt the Israelites would have liked Aten better than the many various deities though even at that they were not to slow on building the golden calf.

    As for the slave angle that doesn’t work outside of Exodus. Joseph is an interesting character a respected governor in Egypt and not a slave. His coloured robe would suggest he was a man of wealth as like other wealthy people would have finer clothes than the poor.
    Being a governor would give him great power much the same for Moses being a prince would give him great power.

    If Moses grew up in the house of Pharaoh then he would have been well educated in the politics and domestic and military ways. Even if I say he was Hebrew and not Egyptian that would not make much difference in his power and connections or take away from the political sway he held.

    If I agree with Exodus and Moses leads the slaves out of bondage it would be likely he would chose a deliberate path knowing that if the Egyptians were to send an army after him then he and his followers would be wiped out.
    Picking an area that would prove a military quagmire would present problems for Egyptian chariots and horses they would simply be bogged down and ineffective. Chariots and horses were not cheap, perfected for fighting in wide open space. Why chase after a people who are marching away from your city in number or if you prefer fleeing the political upheaval at the time.

    The logistics make no sense the expense of sending out an army along with all its cost would leave the Pharaoh open to civil revolt.

    Even when the Hebrew’s are out of Egypt and back in Palestine (Canaan) a bit of infighting takes place about the one god. That is minor compared to the problems ahead as the Promised Land was now occupied with Philistines and Phoenicians.

    The military minds come into play crossing the Jordan and taking Jericho was absolute in gaining a strong foothold in the region. Joshua dies and things get a bit sketchy amongst the tribes, uniting under their first king, Saul and the military conquest continues.
    It seems like the Promised Land was fought for tooth and nail by military conquest and skilled military tacticians and not the breeze in Exodus.

    At best Biblical accounts of accounts are hearsay if we had accounts from or shortly after the time of Jesus that would be different

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  161. Wolfsbane,

    I don’t see it; I see the same things that affected man then as now wars, famine, and natural disaster, etc… even though we live in a time of greater understanding we ignore the simple problems that could be a thing of the past poverty and hunger, homelessness and the simplest of all clean drinking water for the people on the entire rock.
    3 heavy weights all contending for the same throne always a recipe for disaster simply cannot be explained away as gods will or master plan.

    On religion I agree with Anthony and I have no problems with people believing even if they believe in a Flying Spaghetti Monster. I just don’t subscribe, it was here before me and will be here long after I get off the bus.

    I look at the Red Hand and see pagan I would assume strictly religious people would view the symbol as offensive to their god and not just turn a blind eye but then no matter what religion cannot escape its pagan roots. It is a bit of a contradiction ST. Patrick’s cross, and the good aul Red Hand and a wee lid for a queen.

    If you use the Red Hand as part of your identity then you end up approving of state religion what is more important being British or believing in a god politics mixed with religion only end up sectarian. It is pagan and widely displayed in the north.

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  162. Wolfsbane,

    I wasn’t intentionally being dismissive of the article but it claims Irish Independence suggesting a UI and not 2 separate states. My point was the Free State Protestants did not end up in some papist hell on earth. Even Big Ian ignored the healthy relationship in the south and insisted in his lies about papists and conspiracies.

    Minority, majority should not be on the religious table religious wars are not about the power of god but the power of man.
    Toss aside us in name only people and ask why do devout Christians who are believers but separated by marginal differences not rush to each other’s aid surely that would be more in line with protecting god’s word rather than feeding the divisions in Christian belief.

    It seems the faithful always follow the corrupted power of man rather than the purity of their god.

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  163. Wolfsbane,

    it is a common theme religion and corruption a very rich tapestry easy to exploit.

    I did not know the Mormons counted the dead that is a wee bit more than creepy and completely pointless.
    Then again they are a funny old lot but then again so is a talking hat. Then it is all a matter of the super natural.

    Sin was around long before established religion idolatry is still common the Queen which has its origin in the Act of Supremacy with a slight change so that the Christ would not be seen as being usurped but we could argue that in today’s Parliament the Christ is not as revered as once but maybe a polite formality of sorts.

    A question of perception and our modern media might give us the impression that Islam is on the rise or is it simply they are now part of our everyday life and more noticeable than 20 or 30 years past.
    I am sure they play the numbers game also and are plagued with their own forms of sectarianism.

    It is unlikely there will ever be the one world one god what there will be is more of the same god wars.

    I wouldn’t term it as secret sin the internet does not hide it but goes to lengths to promote what is being peddled which in turn generates advertisement and money is the god of the internet and the technology empires that rule it are in awe of the profit made from it developing even more advanced worlds in cyber space.

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  164. Wolfsbane,

    the advancement of Nano technology will give machines autonomy with the ability to replicate and eventually think no government is going to impede the power potential within this technology.

    Much the same as we humans had a few grunts and gestures that evolved into language and a few stones and sticks that evolved into nuclear weapons. Future machines will not be like the passive computer of today which already talk with one and other.

    The external energy source the sun will enable machines to be free from the constraints of being on the electrical grid the possibilities are endless from military to medical. Generations have already grown into the computer age and in that sense are programmed to demand more and more from computers.

    I would say on the mass murder bit all is pretty equal the villains of our time are no different than the villains of anytime the English empire did more than its share of slaughter just as the Mongols did theirs. Slaughter is slaughter and not unique to one person history is full of slaughter.

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  165. Wolfsbane,

    for argument sake say we were in a UI tomorrow all went well no hiccups the only difference would be that the English no longer ruled. The protestant way of life, will not fall off the face of the earth neither will the British way of life you would still consider yourself British much as I consider myself Irish. I would assume your traditions that your father handed down to you, you passed on to yours, and they in turn will pass on to theirs.

    Though we have to remember what was our world and ways is subject to change youngsters 50 years from now may not follow tradition and further down the line tradition starts to become part of lore.
    The computer age will influence change not unlike any invention that alters and changed history the difference this is instant and for the most part borders and barriers free and that will have a global impact on how people interact.

    The supremacy waters run deep as the Irish were forced into being counted as British through force and not democracy. If a democratic vote in the near future comes about and it points at a UI would you consider that being forced into a republic? Is there a difference between Irish Baptists and British Baptists?

    The robber Banks of London used to profit from all the invaded lands it takes more than a figure head of a king or queen to finance an empire.

    I wouldn’t be interested in keeping a foreign government’s bank healthy the wealth should stay in our banks. I am pretty simple and don’t need nuclear weapons or the expense of housing and maintaining or updating them. I would prefer seeing that money spent on housing, health, education, and any important social service.

    The Brits will always pull the strings I should say the English they wrote the book on modern empire and they make the rules I doubt they would be bluffed in their own game a greater power may bluff them.

    The 3 heavy weight religions have imperial roots all have had kings or queens even god has a kingdom.
    All have different ideas about how to get to their ideal seat in above.
    Mine is quite simple if I can sit about playing poker having a good glass of Whiskey and playing games of chess then my heart would be content.

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  166. Frankie,

    the ancient world would have been a different view of the night sky minus electricity so I assume the locals at the time would see many unexplainable things.

    Chariots of fire would fit the times but I don’t see it as being much use in terms of advanced alien technology. I would imagine the locals who sat on the sideline as chariot battles took place would get to see the dust kicking up and if fought nearing the evening I assume they would have had oil torches on the back and flaming arrows flashing back and forth literally chariots of fire.

    I wouldn’t put much faith in descriptions or symbols at the time as if they had the term UFO that would fit nicely which is not necessarily ET but simply something we cannot identify.
    I think part of my problem with the Grey’s is simple since man and probably even before his dander out of Africa looking skyward at night would be normal. I am sure even they noticed things, some things would fall and burn up in the atmosphere larger things would streak across the sky. A circle shape with a tail would be just a comet but from the human eye that might look like a flying burning object.

    I think the problem is we are looking up but if we were sitting on Mars or even on one of Jupiter’s moons we probably couldn’t see the earth so well go a wee bit further out and it would be impossible to see the wee blue dot hidden in the other dots. If ET was on the lookout for us they would face the same problems unless they happened upon us by chance. That or that could track us by radio waves that we have sent out but again they only travel so far before they fade out.

    I have a problem thinking of a machine with the capacity to travel through space which I assume would have an ultra-high-tech-navigation system somehow crashing or crash-landing on the blue dot.
    I don’t disbelieve confirmed sighting of unidentified objects or lights pilots in WW2 nicknamed them Foo Fighters even today pilots claim to see mysterious lights or objects. I don’t doubt they seen them but have no idea what they are human sight is notorious for seeing things that are not there.

    I have heard of people who believe Atlantis is an underwater airport for space ships along with the Bermuda triangle what is the difference between now and ancients believing the same things.
    Some contend the moon landing was staged others contend it’s a bus stop for aliens. The only thing that made sense to me in the Santa Claus video was the beginning the 2nd movement of Beethoven’s ninth symphony.

    I am sure there are minerals on the moon that one day humans might be able to harvest. I am not so sure about the ETs but am fascinated by the idea of a human colony on Mars that might answer David Bowies question is there life on Mars but a better question would be if that happened and a human was born on Mars he/she would be the first known ET as they would not be earthlings.
    Simple answer I have no idea if they exist it ends up in the same realm of the existence of god(s) though I admit the ET angle or intelligent life forms is more interesting.

    I think it is because we have no idea where we came from or where we are going we need to think of things that are greater than us to fill in the blanks. Who knows maybe life on earth was an accident and the universe is void of life or there could be millions of life forms throughout the universe there could be people more advanced than us or less advanced.

    If they exist perhaps it is best they don’t know us or where we are as we could in up serving some alien overlord.

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  167. Misinterpretation of Chosenness.
    The concept of chosenness has often been misinterpreted by non-Jews as a statement of superiority or even racism. But the belief that Jews are the Chosen People actually has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. In fact, chosenness has so little to do with race that Jews believe the Messiah will be descended from Ruth, a Moabite woman who converted to Judaism and whose story is recorded in the biblical “Book of Ruth.

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  168. Tain Bo:

    Many thanks for your detailed reply! I look forward to reading and reflecting on them. I won't get to respond until next weekend however, as I work nights and my current rota has me off only Saturday night from now to next Thursday.

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  169. Sarah Heaton said:
    'Misinterpretation of Chosenness.
    The concept of chosenness has often been misinterpreted by non-Jews as a statement of superiority or even racism. But the belief that Jews are the Chosen People actually has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. In fact, chosenness has so little to do with race that Jews believe the Messiah will be descended from Ruth, a Moabite woman who converted to Judaism and whose story is recorded in the biblical “Book of Ruth.'

    Indeed.

    Both Jews and Gentiles have at times misunderstood it so - the former looking down in contempt on the 'goys'; the latter accepting and reacting to this misuse, and indeed to God's actual election of the Jewish nation.

    God did not choose Israel for any good in them compared to other nations - but simply because He sovereignly set His love on them:

    Deuteronomy 7:“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

    John the Baptist reminded those who boasted in their race:
    Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

    Here's Israel's condition and future:
    Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    27 For this is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins.”
    28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

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  170. Wolfsbane,

    there is no hurry; the internet creates that instant on demand environment that does not work so well in normal everyday routine.
    Take your time my friend…

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  171. Tain Bo said:
    'Wolfsbane,
    I believe if the Brits had true intentions of leaving they would have done so. We are still part of the union and the Brits have still not left. I believe I am being fair in saying they had no intentions of giving up “their” claim in Ireland.'

    I think it more likely they were not willing to face the tragedy that would have been unleashed in Ireland – and parts of Britain – when Unionists waged a war of self-determination themselves. But neither of us can know for sure – only those who took the decisions. Perhaps if we had the relevant cabinet papers?

    'The Brits claim to the land now is via the original planters’ now native sons and daughters of the land with different traditions and beliefs than the other natives the rebellious ones that the Brits frown upon. It would make sense that the English would manipulate the rivals in order for them to hold onto what they want.'

    Yes, IF they really wanted N.I. The present status is just as likely to arise from the considerations I referred to above.

    'I honestly don’t believe it was going to be permitted past the stage of threat London’s concern was not on the issue of Ireland but the greater looming instability in Europe. A rebellion in Ireland would tie up troops and resources they would be aware that the Island would be open for foreign armies and that risk of a war in the Brits back door.'

    So you are saying Britain would be willing to let us go, if there were no threat from an outside invasion? Then why are they still here today?

    'I do not doubt the UVF would have got wired in had the Brits washed their hands of the Island. Many would probably have fought to the death but with all being not so quiet on the western front I don’t see the vision going past threat as that would put the other Brits in a bind they would have no choice other than crush any rebellion not in the interests of either people but for their own interest.'

    Could they have crushed the Unionist threat? Yes, militarily. But not without probably being overthrown by their own electorate, and quite possibly the Army.


    'True it takes little to start a war and considerably more to maintain one with a clear objective on how to win one and the more difficult part of ending one. We can call the threat legitimate but again I don’t see the vision in it. I would still maintain a UVF rebellion would have lead to a UI.'

    The vision of the UVF would have been to make their enemies call off their war, or pay so dearly for their victory that it would be remembered for generations as an act of Irish folly. Winning need not be the objective of defense – mutual assured destruction is a valid concept.

    'I don’t see how “democracy” was forcing a UI the Irish were not massing an army the issue was being bantered about in London they would have the final say on it. The threat of war was directed at the Irish not the deciders in London so the threat was anti-democracy and pro-rebellion the same old line of being loyal when it suits position but not so loyal if position is being shifted.'

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  172. Tain Bo said:
    ‘I don’t see how “democracy” was forcing a UI the Irish were not massing an army the issue was being bantered about in London they would have the final say on it. The threat of war was directed at the Irish not the deciders in London so the threat was anti-democracy and pro-rebellion the same old line of being loyal when it suits position but not so loyal if position is being shifted.’

    Democracy required the Unionists to defend their people from being subjugated by the Irish when the British State left. You still seem to think democracy requires a people to submit themselves to the will of another people! While we remained in the UK we were one people with them and had to submit to the majority wish. But if we were put out of the UK, then we were under obligation to none but ourselves. Ask yourself if you would be loyal in the same circumstances; Say Ireland was United in 2016, but subsequent conflict in the North caused the Irish Republican Government in Dublin to decide in 2026 to cut off the 6 Counties and return them to the UK. Would you as a 6 County Republican consider yourself obliged to obey the Irish Government’s decision? Or would you say they might cast you off, but they have no right to say where you go?

    ‘In the end it is all part of that not so equal English union the Scots, Welsh, and northern Irish all share the same standard as being beneath the English they are the ultimate deciders, unionists and loyalists would be 2nd rate and the non unionists 3rd rate subjects.’

    We in NI have done fairly well from the central Exchequer. Yes, English-dominated Westminster determines our laws (the ones we haven’t had devolved) – but in a UI the 26 Counties would have a similar role. Dublin-rule in more ways than one! That’s how democratic States work.

    ‘I would believe practicing Christians should not be subjects to man but to god’

    We have a duty to both – God comes first, then our duty to the State:
    Acts 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 28 saying, “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!” 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.
    Romans 13: 13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

    ‘ and maintain the garden the way he decided and not the way ruler’s decided. If god exists I doubt he would have interest in geographical borders or states’

    God’s secret will determines when and where nations live and rule. But we are to work our best to do right by our fellow-men, especially our nation. The Irish Question is one of competing rights of the two nations in Ireland. A suitable compromise is the Christian objective.

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  173. Tain Bo said:
    ‘yes, in a war the victor takes the spoils but there was no war in this case only the threat of starting one. That would be the original problem foreigners taking land that is and was not theirs for the taking. And by foreigners I mean the English.’

    Yes, the last invaders of Ireland were the English – sent by the pope to bring the Celtic Church into line with Rome. Altogether, a sad affair. The problems deepened with the English split with Rome, as the Irish were now its faithful devotees. The English then went in for mass-plantation and seizure of Irish lands. The resentment to the occupation and hopes to gain independence has remained till today. Partition gave some solution; and the recent Agreements have refined that and been accepted by the majority of the people in NI and in Ireland.

    ‘I don’t see how it evaporates down to fighting for “our” rights. Would the outcome have been different if not one son of the Island never seen the western front? ‘

    Had Germany won, Western society would have been radically different. Neither British or Irish concepts of ‘rights’ would have remained.

    ‘I am not questioning the courage or foolishness of those who fought in the Great War all sides were fighting for their rights and beliefs and all sides displayed equal courage or foolishness.’

    Indeed. Even good men get involved fighting for foolish causes.

    ‘As you believe the UVF were willing to fight for their rights would they have fought against the British soldiers or just the Irish people?’

    Both.

    ‘Why threaten to start a war in Ireland and then end up in the trenches fighting a war alongside those threatened. It seems democracy was the victim as the rights of a majority were lost in the fog. I don’t see how it works first a planned uprising against democracy and then in the trenches dying for the democracy that was under threat from the UVF.’

    The War was another threat to democracy, just as pressing as the one posed by the Irish.

    ‘I am unsure how if the Germans had won it would be a disaster for mankind again kings and castles trading one ruler for another.’

    The ideology of the German elite was akin to the later Nazis. Not just another change of ruler.

    ‘Was the reformation a disaster for mankind? With its equal indulgence in religious slaughter and persecution wasn’t this all to establish a new “truer version” of belief.’

    The freedom that resulted from the Reformation was worth the regrettable wars it caused. WWII was horrific, but the freedom we in the West kept made it all worth-while. If the Reformation had merely made Protestantism the new power, then the Reformation would have failed. Freedom, not a change in religious dictatorship, has been the prize.

    ‘Would a German win in the Great War remove your rights to be Protestant would they favour Catholics, no?’

    Germany was hostile to anything that did not recognize German superiority – that includes both the Catholic and Protestant Churches.

    ‘ I assume the rights you speak of are to be and remain British Protestants I don’t see how a bit of land is religious.
    I wouldn’t view our wee Island as Catholic or Protestant nor heathen the inhabitants are religious and religion has always been territorial which is political rather than religious.’

    No, the right to be British and the right to be Protestant are not the same. One can be an Irish Protestant or a British Catholic. But a German victory would have removed the civil rights desired by both British and Irish people. And a UI would have removed our rights to be British and hindered our freedom as Protestants.

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  174. Tain Bo said:
    ‘I agree Hitler was not a true Christian and not unlike the Protestant threat against a UI who also used it by similar means. The Reich was filled from top to bottom with Catholics and Protestants. On their belt buckle “Gott mit Uns” God is with us, no division by design as the godless communists were a great threat to Christianity. It would be safe to assume that many soldiers were faithful to their Christian beliefs and died fighting for their rights’

    Yes, no doubt many German ‘Christians’ fought with only protection from communism in mind, and deplored Nazism. Others however saw the main wickedness they had to challenge was the one in their State – and many died resisting the Nazis.

    ‘State religion is still religion would the Protestants who threatened rebellion not in agreement with remaining part of the British Protestant State?’

    I’m sure many Dissenters like myself were not happy with an Established Church. We would like the CoE to be disestablished. But in the meantime, better a Protestant Throne than a Catholic one.

    ‘How can we determine how many people of all faiths were not devout in their beliefs the true religion seems to suggest that only certain soldiers could be considered true believers.
    Tolkien better known today for films and less for his high fantasy works was a devout Catholic an officer in the BA would he be any less considering he was fighting for the same rights? ‘

    Yes, only some soldiers were true Christians. But even the nominal or false lot had their brand of faith to defend. Even the right to be an atheist is a worthy thing to fight for.

    ‘Fortunately Adolf was only a great orator and not a military tactician his ego and megalomania would be key in his demise. The Battle of Britain knocked more than the wind out of his sail. Declaring war on America and invading Russia only sounded reasonable in his deluded mind failing to invade Britain any reasonable leader would not expand their war if he had stuck with being a politician and let his competent generals do their job the outcome may well have been different the war may well have been shorter.’

    Very true! God had mercy on us by letting Hitler get his own way with the German campaign.

    ‘The only great surprise being they never managed to bump him off.’

    Several attempts, frustrated by ‘bad luck’ . I don’t believe in luck: God allowed Hitler to survive so that Germany would be brought low for its sins.


    ‘As for the Armistice they knew exactly what they were doing and the short term was weakening any possible future threat,’

    The WWI Armistice had short-term gains indeed – but surely the drafters knew the long-term consequences would be disastrous if they did not keep Germany in ruins? But they vacillated between vengeance and mercy, and stoked a German vengeance that nearly swept away civilization for centuries.

    ‘As for our different mind-sets we need a change though I am not convinced our politicians would encourage straying too far from the old ways. If nothing else but to avoid a repeat of 69 but that’s a tricky card always up our politicians sleeves.’

    Yes, a difficult task, to encourage progress without causing a retreat!

    ‘As for Christians they need to put god before state and not use belief as part of a political argument.’

    I agree. The only place religion has in our politics is to determine each individual’s morality, and the place of politics in religion is to protect its right to exist in freedom. My vote will be for Pro-life candidates, for example, and for the candidates who will support our religious liberty.

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  175. Tain Bo said:
    ‘God can change the rules as in clearing the slate with a new covenant is that god saying he blundered on the old one why would god be faulty on his original that makes him sound more human and prone to mistakes.’

    No, the Old Covenant had a purpose. It showed us how wretched man really is – having received God’s holy law with its promise of eternal life if one obeyed, they did not obey. Why? Because we are sinners by nature, born with Adam’s fallen nature. We are alienated from God and will never live a sinless life (the life the Old Covenant demanded). And the Law not only showed us our helpless state, it pointed us to the coming Saviour who would deliver us from our sins. The sacrifices of the Old Covenant typified the one final sacrifice for sins that the Messiah would offer for His people.

    ‘Isn’t this just a clever way of snubbing the chosen people and pushing their deal with god into the margin?
    The promise was made to the chosen people I am not so sure they would agree with being snubbed and replaced by their own god.’

    Israel has not been replaced – the New Covenant is first of all for them, then for the Gentiles. Note the language of the New Covenant:
    Jeremiah 31: 31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—“

    ‘Perhaps I mistake the command but I didn’t include those with a baron womb or on the other side of that coin those with blank seed. I assume they get a bye ball or indeed those who chose not to reproduce for whatever reasons.’

    The command to procreate was to our first parents, then to their descendents generally. Not every individual. Everyone has his/her own calling.

    ‘The law makes perfect sense at the time as the population was far less not such a great idea today and on that the Catholic Church should be handing out condoms and contraceptives’ instead of those wee Jesus wafers.’

    Yes, it was a wise command for the early years of mankind. It was never meant to oblige all men in all ages to do the same – but neither does it forbid them from procreating. Contraception is a spiritually lawful option, not an obligation.

    ‘In Christian tradition marriage is in the presence of god and a lot of people take the tradition vow to god to make their union sacred.’

    Their union is sacred because of their vow to one another anyway. Violating a covenant between men is a grave offence, whether between nations (eg. White men and American Indians) or business or marriage.

    ‘Just because one or the other or both can’t make their union work does not make breaking the promise before god any less excusable. Why not just exclude god from marriage.’

    The innocent party needs no excuse – the guilty party broke the covenant, so the innocent party has no covenant to break.

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  176. Tain Bo said:

    ‘I believe a woman should have the right to decide and that is not based in religion, ethics, or morality but purely as it is her body. I would assume whatever the circumstances from poverty through to confusion or even just selfishness or victims of rape and incest they should have the choice.
    If they don’t want a baby and the responsibility chances are they might not be ideal mothers.’

    If their own body only was involved, the choice indeed would be up to them alone. But the baby in the womb is NOT the mother’s body. It is another human being. It also has rights.

    ‘Men should have a say on the issue but most men will give that the quiet nod of approval in private as they don’t want the responsibility either.’

    Sadly true.

    ‘Education is getting better but we still see young teens pushing prams not old enough to be wed.’

    I doubt education is to blame. Most know the mechanics of sex and the possible outcomes. But they choose to be reckless for the sake of pleasure/peer-pressure.

    ‘No, married people can have sex all day and night, well the younger ones could. I am saying those who follow faith and gods laws are supposed to reproduce if they can.’

    As above, I’m saying that is not the Scriptural case.

    ‘That is given they don’t have faulty equipment the general idea of marriage is to grow a family and some adopt children for various reasons. Some turn to science to assist them in reproduction I see nothing wrong in that.’

    Yes, I’ve no problem either, providing it does not involve willful destruction of embryos.

    ‘Single people are free to do as they please from abstaining all the way through the spectrum if they decide they want kids but no wedding that is their choice. ‘

    It is their choice – just as theft, lying, murder is one’s choice. Marriage is commanded for those who want to sexually know one another.


    ‘I don’t see Christians uniting or agreeing on much their roots are firmly planted and the business of religion would be a great objector’

    Yes, even Christian religion can be a profit-making enterprise. But the sincere among them will not be motivated by such unworthy ideas – they differ on grounds of conscience.

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  177. Tain Bo said:
    ‘we could say the same about the dominant religion in the north and its utter rejection and intolerance towards the minority religion.’

    We should not object to one religion or ideology rejecting another – logically each must do so, if they claim to be THE truth on the matter. What we should object to is those religionists discriminating against those not of its persuasion. All should respect the freedom of all, no matter how mistaken we think them to be in matters of Truth.

    ‘It is a pity that the labels of connivance stuck during the conflict instead of it being British/ unionists versus Irish republicans it was easier for the media to brand it a religious tribal war that doesn’t help the image of either religion after the fact.’

    Well said! I’ve often made the point myself. Religious difference coincidently roughly marked out the two parties, and contributed a fair bit to their alienation – but it was not the cause.

    ‘I agree there are believer’s I just was pointing out that religion being on the tap is more akin to the money changers in the temple.’

    We agree on that!

    ‘By mending fences I was not implying one side or the other should convert but it would make sense to unite under a Christian banner as it is essentially the same side of the coin.’

    I know what you mean, but that is a great misunderstanding. The historic Roman Catholic and Reformed Churches differ on some essential doctrines, making one or the other in effect not truly Christian. There has been some re-formulation of the doctrine of Justification within the RCC that seems to bring it in line with Reformed teaching – but that interpretation has not yet been validated by the Papacy, as far as I’m aware.

    ‘I agree there should be a mutual respect and understanding. Tolerate is one of those tricky words I would have said “accept” the obvious differences.’

    We ought to tolerate/accept the right of others to hold error, without saying that error is truth.

    ‘Infighting amongst Christians only weakens the beliefs and usually ends in dwindling numbers and more divisions.’

    Yes, even in true churches that happens. But the RCC – Reformed thing is not a matter of differences among Christians.

    ‘You will have to give me a bit of room as I said I don’t normally engage in religious debate I say debate as I don’t feel it is an argument and I might not use the proper phrase or line.’

    Certainly – but you are doing fine!

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  178. Tain Bo said:
    ‘You are correct I should have asked how you know your version is true. Is there a noticeable difference between Protestant Baptists and non-Baptist Protestants?’

    Yes, usually that we baptize only believers, whilst most non-Baptists baptize the infants of believers too. And Baptists govern their churches by congregational consent (as do Congregationalists), whilst most others are ruled by a presbytery of churches (eg. Presbyterians) or by a hierarchy. Baptists would have a similar spectrum of non-disctinctive doctrines as the other Protestant denominations – some are Arminian, some Calvinist; some Pentecostal, some Cessationist; etc.

    ‘ Just as on the Catholic tree there are many branches the Protestant tree has many branches also. Do you have any fundamental differences with say Pentecostal Protestants I think they are the ones that do the speaking in tongues and divine healing?’

    No, no fundamental differences. We accept one another as truly Christian, but mistaken about these secondary matters. BUT that is not to say all individuals or churches who call themselves Baptist/Pentecostal, etc. are really such. There are many heretical and apostate people and churches – folk who no longer hold to the historic teachings of their church in essential matters.

    ‘I am not trying to be a smart arse as this exchange is interesting and I am gaining an understanding. It is a bit of a paradox trying to be respectful of your beliefs and being a heathen I understand much of what I say is blasphemy so I appreciate your patience on that score as a Priest would have me burning in hell.’

    I have no problem whatever with your thoughts/objections – honest comment/questions that challenge one’s beliefs should not be taken as an insult. And God regards the sincere concerns of men and women. The Lord Jesus answered the objections of sincere people, will condemning the deceitful questions of the religious hypocrites:
    John 1: 43 The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him,“Follow Me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
    46 And Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”
    Philip said to him, “Come and see.”
    47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”
    48 Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?”
    Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.”
    49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”

    Matthew 22: 15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. 16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men. 17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”
    18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?19 Show Me the tax money.”
    So they brought Him a denarius.
    20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?”
    21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.”
    And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” 22 When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.

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  179. Tain Bo said:
    ‘the Sabbath we could go round in circles debating the histories of days of rest. It is just a commandment I am unsure how it is replaced with the new covenant.’

    Our (Non-Sabbatarians) argument is that it was part of the Old Covenant summary known as the Ten Commandments, but the only one not re-iterated in the NT commandments. We say this was because the Sabbath was a covenant-marker for the nation of Israel. Now that God has abolished the OC and introduced the NC, no symbol/marker is needed. Christ Himself is our rest.

    ‘I am not following how god came first then pagans arose out of hostility. Europe was godless in biblical times; pagans of all sorts were worshiping everything but a one god. If god was already there first they kept that shy. I think the go forward and spread the good word would contradict what you say.
    Hostile pagans would have the dilemma of giving up their ways and beliefs but as history shows early Christians managed to survive and introduce the almighty one powerful god.

    Europe was Godless, the whole world was Godless – after the Fall. Only a remnant of mankind repented and served God. The heathen invented their own gods to replace Him. God was there – but they chose to forget Him.

    But God has His own agenda – and in His time He sent His Son to redeem all who will repent and trust in Him. Christ paid for their sins by His suffering of the Divine wrath due them. He then rose again and sent out His disciples – that’s what Christians are – to bring the message of salvation to all the world.

    ‘Yes, Islam is a knockoff of a knockoff of the original chosen people but all are knockoffs of earlier belief systems pagan ways were cleverly woven into the tapestry of the one god.’

    That’s a common theory – but not the truth. The One True God has always been known by His own. The faith of the OT people of God is the same as that of Christians – the same God. Polytheism did not evolve into monotheism – quite the reverse. And much of the world is still polytheist. Islam is a noted exception.


    ‘The pagan belief of birth death and rebirth is similar to Christ being born, dying and being reborn’

    Not really. The differences between the accounts of gods being born, killed, and re-born and that of Jesus Christ are marked.

    ‘which is also a common theme today if I was to kill off my heathen ways and accept Christ I would be reborn.’

    Jesus was not reborn – He was resurrected from the dead. The Christian is reborn in spirit in this life, but will be resurrected from the dead on the Last Day.

    ‘Polytheism must work or the people would change economics makes the world go round if they are content with their beliefs then what is wrong with that.’

    Polytheism works, just as fornication and adultery works. It often brings serious consequences in this life, however, and always in the next. But the practice remains popular for all of these.

    ‘I am not so sure much of the scriptures would have survived if it was not for the oral tradition.’

    Oral tradition was essential – that’s how the account survived until they were written down. God ensured both happened. But not all oral traditions are of God. Man has invented a lot more.

    ‘The gospel will survive as long as people believe though today’s Christians have their work cut out with societies pushing god to the side.’

    True on both accounts! But that’s exactly what Christ foretold:
    Matthew 24: 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

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  180. Tain Bo said:
    ‘How do you navigate the religious waters as the English seem a wee bit on the godless side do you think parliament will stand up and declare the Christian god is the true god.’

    I expect them to do quite the opposite – the liberal-fascists who direct our society seem intent on gagging Christianity.

    ‘Will other religions be viewed as a threat to the Protestant way of life in Ulster? To be clear I am using the terms Protestant and Catholic respectfully referring to those who hold their conviction of faith and practice it and not the taigs and prods in name only as we know in that fishbowl god is nowhere to be seen. Do you consider the heathens and non-Christians as a threat to a protestant way of life?’

    They are a threat only in as far as they might seek to impose their doctrines on us. To ban evangelizing people of other religions, for example. Or to make Christians declare certain sins are morally good. Merely being a heathen religion is no threat to our freedoms.

    ‘The heathens alone push Christianity to the margins if not completely of the page. The Catholics keep it on the page so are Catholics more acceptable than heathens considering they believe in god but not in the same terms as you.’

    Yes, modern Catholicism – the non-imperial version – is more likely to help keep religious freedom alive than say, militant atheism and Islam.

    ‘It appears the question of Islam or I should say British Islam may give British Christianity a run for their money.’

    Indeed – Christianity was wiped out of large parts of the world by the sword of Islam. Could happen again.

    ‘I don’t think Islam is on the rise but is now closer to home and more noticeable than before.’

    Hmm. I do think it is on the rise – at least the powerful end of it. And we both know that it does not take majorities to control a nation.

    ‘I am fairly sure the Brits fear militant Islam more so than they feared the IRA.’

    Agreed.

    ‘The possibility of a god war in the UK is feasible as we know they play by their own rules and ways.’

    It will be a one-sided god war, for the opposition to Islam will be composed of overwhelmingly heathen Brits.

    ‘Are they clever enough to exploit the decline in Christianity to me it is all bunkers pure madness.’

    They most likely will face godless hedonism and atheism, with the tiny number of devout Protestants and Catholics and Jews in support.

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  181. Tain Bo said:
    ‘my question was what parent would leave their child abandoned to chance in a marsh within a few hours the local animals would be nosy enough to figure out if this crying infant was food or not.
    The story would hardly work if they just abandoned the infant and five minutes later the royals just happen to be hanging out in the same marsh and by chance find the child.’

    The account of Moses in the Nile does not say he was abandoned – it says his sister kept watch. When the child was rescued by Pharaoh’s daughter, it was Miriam who went up to her and volunteered to find a wet-nurse for Moses.

    ‘Kill all Hebrew infant males again if that did happen I don’t see anyone ruthless enough to order it having a change of heart when his daughter brings home an infant.’

    Dad’s and their daughters! Rulers can be ruthless and at the same time devoted to their kids.

    ‘Adoption is not the case a Royal family would not adopt a commoner’

    Who says? And who says Moses was to be in line for the throne? He was raised with the best education, etc – as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, not Pharaoh’s son.

    ‘and as the story goes killing all Hebrew infants was not because these people were slaves but growing in number but even that is sketchy at best.’

    They were multiplying rapidly – and that moved Pharaoh to first enslave them and eventually kill the males.


    ‘The word slavery might be misleading and could apply in terms of freeing the Hebrews from the Egyptians’ beliefs system or false gods.’

    Only if you think being forced to build the cities and storehouses under taskmasters does not constitute slavery:
    Exodus 1: 6 And Joseph died, all his brothers, and all that generation. 7 But the children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them.
    8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 And he said to his people, “Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we;10 come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land.” 11 Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithom and Raamses. 12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were in dread of the children of Israel. 13 So the Egyptians made the children of Israel serve with rigor. 14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage—in mortar, in brick, and in all manner of service in the field. All their service in which they made them serve was with rigor.
    ‘In the time of Jacob and Joseph the Israelites settle in the land of Goshen they “settled” that does not mean they were rounded up by force and brought there. Obviously major differences in both peoples would lead to conflict NI would be a good model of that.’

    Correct – they were not slaves when they entered Egypt, but in a later generation they were enslaved.

    ‘The Egyptian prince Moses probably adopted the ways of the Hebrew and the local Hebrews welcomed having such a powerful convert turned prophet. That would explain why Moses had a free pass to go see a king not many royals would open their doors so freely.’

    Why not just believe the account? Why do we have to invent other possibilities as if the original cannot be believed?

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  182. Tain Bo said:
    ‘The shock and awe would have worked after one plague or was the Pharaoh not the brightest after 10 plagues the entire region would have converted to this more powerful god and scrapped their beliefs out of history.’

    Good point! God answers that for you:
    Exodus 7: So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. 2 You shall speak all that I command you. And Aaron your brother shall tell Pharaoh to send the children of Israel out of his land. 3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.4 But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them.”

    ‘Slaves don’t get to acquire wealth or treasure and certainly would hold no weapons.’

    Correct – but Moses was never a slave. And the Israelites only got arms and treasure when they were being urged to leave Egypt by the Egyptians.

    ‘The sin of the calf or as we call it the golden calf where would slaves find gold?’

    Moses tells us;
    Exodus 12: 35 Now the children of Israel had done according to the word of Moses, and they had asked from the Egyptians articles of silver, articles of gold, and clothing. 36 And the LORD had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they granted them what they requested. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

    ‘And why would god in the first place give Moses a brother Aaron if the all knowing knew that Aaron would abandon the way.’

    God does it His way – and grants repentance to sinners.

    ‘The bible itself would suggest these people were no slaves.’

    The Bible is full of references to them being slaves in Egypt. Indeed, the OT Judaism was formulated with that history in mind:
    Exodus 13: 14 So it shall be, when your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is this?’ that you shall say to him, ‘By strength of hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 15 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh was stubborn about letting us go, that the LORD killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of beast. Therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all males that open the womb, but all the firstborn of my sons I redeem.’ 16 It shall be as a sign on your hand and as frontlets between your eyes, for by strength of hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt.”

    ‘I would be certain that some might hold more than a grudge which may have lingered all the way to the Promised Land and a power play based in revenge Moses gets killed and could be justified as he was not a son of Israel but of Egypt. Human nature an eye for an eye same old story today.’

    Indeed – but the account tells a different story. God is in control, and Moses dies of old age when God saw fit. He is remembered by Israel as their greatest teacher.

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  183. Tain Bo said:

    ‘the descendants of those “wicked nations” would probably disagree were they any less or more evil than any other nation or religion?’

    Yes, it seems the Canaanites were especially degenerate. And they were living in the land God had promised to Israel. It was time for them to pay for their sins.

    ‘God commands the destruction of these sinful nations sounds good in the terms of invading and taking other peoples lands. I don’t see it, would that same rule apply to the people in Gaza, well not the Christian ones but are they Christian enough?’

    God has not told modern Israel to invade Gaza. That is a decision common to all nations, one of political expediency. I know some Jews and Christians say Israel has the right to take all of the Promised Land back today – but the Bible does not say so. It tells us that God alone decides when Israel enjoys the land and when it is exiled from it. Their current unbelief in Christ gives them no warrant to think God has given them permission to take back the Land.

    ‘In that area it seems there are a lot of wicked people doing the same thing invading and butchering those that don’t follow their gods rule book which in turn blackens the view we have of Islam not that they actually believe but it is always handy to have a god or rule book on your side.’

    No nation has the right to invade another nation that does not threaten it. God alone has the right to decide if a nation’s sin is to be punished by its exile or extinction. As Islam’s god is not God, their rule book can give no validity to their wars.

    ‘I don’t listen to liberals I cannot say I am influenced by those who go to extremes to dispel the idea of a god as that seems to end up as an anti-religion of sorts and develops its own system.’

    Indeed!

    ‘I hold no objections to historians and archaeologists; digging through history after all Troy was considered a mythical city. I don’t see any great reason to suggest certain people did not exist at that time.’

    Glad to hear it. Many people swallow whatever is the current received ‘fact’ as if it were actually proven.

    ‘I am sure as history goes many people who may have been prominent in their time disappear or were erased from history. Since we are in that region the Egyptians’ had no problem wiping out memory of people they came to dislike for whatever reasons. I am not closed off to the thought of uncovering history if they found the Arch of the Covenant or the Spear of Destiny that would be amazing.’

    Good point – history is often doctored to suit those in control. But revealing evidence is hard to erase completely.

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  184. Tain Bo said:
    ‘The Shroud of Turin although not your cup of tea it has unique properties that cannot be replicated today it exists but no concrete theory on how or why I am not so interested in the religious side but it is a unique and interesting piece of history.’

    Yes, I don’t hold it to be the shroud Christ was buried in, but it is certainly unusual. I suspect even the tests that seem to date it in the Middle Ages, as scientists are often too quick to reach definite conclusions.

    ‘I am not so sure on God handing his people over that makes god sound more human, war and invasion is a theme throughout history we still see god wars today can we explain war away as the will of god.’

    We can indeed put any slant on wars; I’m just telling you what the Bible says about Israel’s exiles. He regards their repeated unrepented-off sin as demanding punishment.

    ‘Religion breeds sectarianism these are more the actions of man rather than a displeased god.’

    The Romans exiled the Jews, not for sectarian reasons but for their rebellions. God determined that Roman patience would end when Israel’s sin was full.


    ‘Religions’ are subject to the same rules as Empires they rise and fall we are witnessing a decline in Christianity can it make a great come back, maybe if it has a greater enemy but the computer generations have the power of computers and laugh at us and our old gramophones and 2 channel telly’s.’

    Indeed, religions and empires wax and wane – but Christ has promised that His Church will endure forever. Neither foes within or without will prevail, for God keeps her from being extinguished. Religious indifference in this generation is just a hiccup – the gospel will be successful in saving every one of Christ’s sheep. God saves indifferent people, hostile people, spiritually seeking people, clean-living and degenerate people. All sorts from all nations, in all times:
    John 10: 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

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  185. Tain Bo said:
    ‘All that suggests is the Hebrews are not god’s chosen people and in a sense blames them for what is essentially gods mistake, well the Christian gods mistake, I doubt the Hebrews would agree.’

    The Bible makes clear the Hebrews are God’s chosen people – as a nation. Not every individual, however. And the nation is in disobedience, having rejected its Messiah. The majority has rejected Him, but God has kept a remnant for Himself – the first Christians were entirely Jews, and every generation has had its share of believing Jews. And the promise is that before the Last Day all Israel will be saved.

    ‘The Nazis would agree with that and their death camp history is scarier than the OT. We could say that god was up to his old trick of delivering these poor souls for disobeying his law into the hell on earth of the other Christian god’s making.’

    God delivered Israel into the hands of wicked men because of the nation’s sin – as He did often before in the OT. But the evil men who excelled themselves in their mistreatment of the Jews were and will in their turn be punished by God:
    Isaiah 10: 5 “Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
    And the staff in whose hand is My indignation.
    6 I will send him against an ungodly nation,
    And against the people of My wrath
    I will give him charge,
    To seize the spoil, to take the prey,
    And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
    7 Yet he does not mean so,
    Nor does his heart think so;
    But it is in his heart to destroy,
    And cut off not a few nations…
    12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Lord has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, that He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks.”

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  186. Tain Bo said:

    ‘I know we didn’t change his name that was probably the Greeks, I am not 100% certain but I don’t think the J sound or letter was in use in Hebrew or Aramaic I think it became a letter in the English alphabet in the late 1600s or maybe early 1700s again not exactly sure In English we know him as Jesus but his name might have been Joshua plus it is not common so that is a bit suspect that one person in that region had a unique name.’

    Wiki: ‘The proper name Jesus /ˈdʒiːzəs/ used in the English language originates from the Latin form of the Greek name Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous), a rendition of the Hebrew Yeshua (ישוע), also having the variants Joshua or Jeshua. ‘

    So it was a common name back then, as it is today in ‘Joshua’, and indeed ‘Jesus’ in Latin lands. Think of the variations of ‘John’ in different lands and languages.

    ‘I also think it was around 300 hundred plus years ago the term Jew entered into the English lexicon.’

    Again, Wiki is helpful: ‘The English word Jew continues Middle English Gyw, Iewe. These terms derive from Old French giu, earlier juieu, which had elided(dropped) the letter "d" from the Medieval Latin Iudaeus, which, like the New Testament Greek term Ioudaios, meant both Jews andJudeans / "of Judea"’


    ‘Yes, today we term them as Christians but historically neither was as it was not in existence.’

    ??? The followers of Christ did not exist in the 1st C? Or are you denying they were called Christians then? What evidence have you to off-set the accepted history?

    ‘The word Messiah gets translated by ancient Greeks into Christos roughly meaning Anointed.’

    Indeed. Means the same, which is the point of translation.


    ‘The Hebrews would argue different as would the Muslim’s we have 3 contenders for the same one god but like Christians even they cannot agree.’

    Yes, both Jews and Muslims deny Jesus is the Messiah. Doesn’t make them right. Nor does it make Christians wrong, as if a disputed fact is any less a fact. Jesus is the Messiah or He is not – and one has to decide to obey Him or not.


    ‘I could claim all 3 branches are interesting and riddled with their own versions of conspiracy though rationally the Jews are miles ahead since it is their history the other 2 could be considered weeds in that garden of truth trying to outgrow and strangle the original.’

    We say Christianity is the continuance of faithful Israel. We are obeying the Jewish Messiah and believing all the OT said about Him. Unbelieving Israel has deserted its God and His Son. Rational thinking will compare their Scriptures (the OT) with what the NT says about Jesus – and will find Israel has fulfilled the OT prophecies by rejecting their Messiah, and have been in their longest exile ever as a consequence.

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  187. Tain Bo said:
    ‘Men do change and with their change so to changes their perception of god, god may not change but the evidence of man changing god is common amongst those who claim they understand the spoken or written word better religion is always on shaky ground and all factions of religions claim they are standing on the true solid ground of the rock.’

    Men do mold their gods as they see fit. But Truth is unaffected by their false claims. Competing claims does not mean that there is no actual truth.

    ‘Which bible is the true one as they range from incomplete and partial bibles to complete bibles’

    Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox agree on the NT, but differ on including the Apocrypha in the OT. Protestants follow the Hebrew Bible in the books it includes in the OT.

    ‘ and we all know that dispute is going nowhere why not just one bible but it is good for business selling many copies of different versions?’

    The Apocrypha has interesting material, but it is not God-breathed as the rest of the Scriptures. But the many versions issue is not over the apocrypha – it is about the best Hebrew and Greek texts to use, and the best translations of those texts. And, as you say, often about making money on the copyright of new versions!


    ‘I think I will keep mythology in its place as if these mythological gods and superhuman along with magical creatures existed why do they not exist today.’

    The other gods and magical creatures never existed. They were the imaginations of men’s minds. The only thing about them that existed were the demons that the idols represented. The super-humans seem to have been super-evil men that existed at the time of the Flood, and also after, when demons mated with women and the ‘giants’ were produced – mighty warriors. But they too died off. Possibly Jude refers to the demons involved:
    Jude: 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

    ‘ Easily explained away with Noah’s flood which is just a reworking of Gilgamesh that is not to say there were no floods but floods are common throughout history and today.’

    Not a global flood. And why do you think Gilgamesh is not a reworking of the original account that was passed to Moses?

    ‘Ancient Irish history does not matter I would disagree the history of mankind matters would you say ancient Hebrew history does not matter?’

    All history has some lessons – but how relevant for today is another matter. Ancient Hebrew history as given in the Bible has spiritual lessons for us all.

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  188. Tain Bo said:

    ‘no, the metaphor would be the natural barrier on one side a different belief system and on the other side a new system and a promised land. The parting of the sea and closing it just simply means that system was left behind. The Promised Land was not the same as when they originally left. That may have been caused by famine and other hardships.’

    We could make all actual history a metaphor, if we had no other evidence to challenge that. It’s conspiracy material to insist what appears to be historical narrative is actually a metaphor.

    ‘The Egyptians’ had Atenism a version of monotheism under Akhenaton. The Pharaoh Amenhotep IV changed his name to Akhenaton with a city built of the same name with temples to a one god today known as Amarna.
    His plan was to rid the old gods and ways and replace them with one god. Egyptian records tell a probably more accurate account of the time. Atenism would be an influence in the other 3 contenders for one god and without doubt the Israelites would have liked Aten better than the many various deities though even at that they were not to slow on building the golden calf.’

    Monotheism did not survive long in Egypt. And why should the Jews have liked one god over others? Why would the Egyptian accounts be more accurate than the Jewish ones? Would the defeated Egyptians record their defeat?

    ‘As for the slave angle that doesn’t work outside of Exodus. Joseph is an interesting character a respected governor in Egypt and not a slave. His coloured robe would suggest he was a man of wealth as like other wealthy people would have finer clothes than the poor.
    Being a governor would give him great power much the same for Moses being a prince would give him great power.’

    Joseph got his coloured coat from his dad, when a youth. It came to symbolize for his jealous brothers all that was wrong in their family – and they sold Joseph into bondage. The coloured coat was dipped in animal’s blood and given to his father, to persuade him Joseph was dead. Joseph meantime was a slave to a high official in Egypt. He only became governor after years in prison for a crime against the official he did not commit.

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  189. Tain Bo said:
    ‘If Moses grew up in the house of Pharaoh then he would have been well educated in the politics and domestic and military ways.’

    He was.

    ‘Even if I say he was Hebrew and not Egyptian that would not make much difference in his power and connections or take away from the political sway he held.’

    He had power and luxury. He gave it all up when he defended his oppressed brothers and had to flee Egypt.

    ‘If I agree with Exodus and Moses leads the slaves out of bondage it would be likely he would chose a deliberate path knowing that if the Egyptians were to send an army after him then he and his followers would be wiped out.
    Picking an area that would prove a military quagmire would present problems for Egyptian chariots and horses they would simply be bogged down and ineffective. Chariots and horses were not cheap, perfected for fighting in wide open space. Why chase after a people who are marching away from your city in number or if you prefer fleeing the political upheaval at the time.’

    God chose the way – and it was not a quagmire – it was under the sea. No military brains would choose that. When he pursued them, Pharaoh did not envisage them escaping via a newly created pathway in the sea. He thought to overtake them on solid ground. When the sea retreated and they passed over, no doubt he though to do the same. That the chariots got stuck in the mire was a problem – but the real killer was the sea being brought back over them. That was God’s doing.

    ‘The logistics make no sense the expense of sending out an army along with all its cost would leave the Pharaoh open to civil revolt.’

    The cost would be covered by having his slaves back. Losing them was disastrous for the system. Revolt was more likely if the people had to do the work themselves.

    ‘Even when the Hebrew’s are out of Egypt and back in Palestine (Canaan) a bit of infighting takes place about the one god. That is minor compared to the problems ahead as the Promised Land was now occupied with Philistines and Phoenicians.’

    Israel has always been troubled by unfaithfulness to God. That’s why He delivered them into their enemies’ hands from time to time.

    ‘The military minds come into play crossing the Jordan and taking Jericho was absolute in gaining a strong foothold in the region. Joshua dies and things get a bit sketchy amongst the tribes, uniting under their first king, Saul and the military conquest continues.
    It seems like the Promised Land was fought for tooth and nail by military conquest and skilled military tacticians and not the breeze in Exodus.’

    Yes, their repeated sinning caused them much trouble with their enemies later on – but the conquest was relatively easy, God giving them the victories. God skilled men for war.

    ‘At best Biblical accounts of accounts are hearsay if we had accounts from or shortly after the time of Jesus that would be different’

    The accounts originate from Jesus’ time – ear and eye witnesses wrote them. What we have are copies of copies of those original accounts. I have a recent copy of Dickens’ ‘Bleak House’, not the original manuscript. Doesn’t mean my book is not Dickens’ actual words.

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  190. Tain Bo said:

    ‘3 heavy weights all contending for the same throne always a recipe for disaster simply cannot be explained away as gods will or master plan.’

    False religion in the name of Christianity may be contending for a throne – but not the Church He formed. Its lot is persecution as it wins men and women to Christ. His plan is for us to evangelize the world and teach those who believe – never is it to lord it over secular rulers.

    ‘On religion I agree with Anthony and I have no problems with people believing even if they believe in a Flying Spaghetti Monster. I just don’t subscribe, it was here before me and will be here long after I get off the bus.’

    Glad to know you not share the traditional Marxist response to religion!

    ‘I look at the Red Hand and see pagan I would assume strictly religious people would view the symbol as offensive to their god and not just turn a blind eye but then no matter what religion cannot escape its pagan roots. It is a bit of a contradiction ST. Patrick’s cross, and the good aul Red Hand and a wee lid for a queen.’

    Symbols can change in meaning, just as words do. We do not have to ascribe to a symbol all that it meant in the past. The swastika, for example, changed in meaning in the 20th C. The word ‘prevent’ in the 17thC meant precede, now it means impede.

    ‘If you use the Red Hand as part of your identity then you end up approving of state religion’

    How so? It is merely a symbol I am from Ulster.

    ‘what is more important being British or believing in a god politics mixed with religion only end up sectarian. It is pagan and widely displayed in the north.’

    Many of us PULs do not believe in a State Religion. I would favour the disestablishment of the CoE, just as the CoI was disestablished. Freedom of religion is our desire.

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  191. Tain Bo said:

    ‘I wasn’t intentionally being dismissive of the article but it claims Irish Independence suggesting a UI and not 2 separate states. My point was the Free State Protestants did not end up in some papist hell on earth. Even Big Ian ignored the healthy relationship in the south and insisted in his lies about papists and conspiracies.’

    Yes, the Free State and Republic were not hells on earth for Prods – but they were far from the freedom experienced in NI and GB. So why would any Prod willingly submit themselves to such a State?

    ‘Minority, majority should not be on the religious table religious wars are not about the power of god but the power of man.’

    Religious freedom is the thing. If a religious majority cannot be trusted to accord freedom to a minority religion, then that minority would be foolish to willingly enter that State.

    ‘Toss aside us in name only people and ask why do devout Christians who are believers but separated by marginal differences not rush to each other’s aid surely that would be more in line with protecting god’s word rather than feeding the divisions in Christian belief.’

    We do – but I think your question may mistake fundamental differences for marginal ones. We ought to accord freedom to all religions, no matter how much we disagree with them – but our spiritual fellowship will only be with those who agree on the essentials of the faith.

    ‘It seems the faithful always follow the corrupted power of man rather than the purity of their god.’

    Not at all. Many faithful do their best to avoid the corrupted power of man.

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  192. Tain Bo said


    ‘it is a common theme religion and corruption a very rich tapestry easy to exploit.’

    Yes, every organization presents wolves with opportunities to fleece unwary sheep. True pastors will fight against that.

    ‘I did not know the Mormons counted the dead that is a wee bit more than creepy and completely pointless.
    Then again they are a funny old lot but then again so is a talking hat. Then it is all a matter of the super natural.’

    Don’t confuse supernatural with delusions. Logically there may be (there is) a spiritual dimension even though there are many delusions about it.

    ‘Sin was around long before established religion’

    Agreed!

    ‘ idolatry is still common’

    True!

    ‘the Queen which has its origin in the Act of Supremacy with a slight change so that the Christ would not be seen as being usurped but we could argue that in today’s Parliament the Christ is not as revered as once but maybe a polite formality of sorts.’

    The very idea that a monarch or pope is in any sense the head of the Church is blasphemous. Christ alone is head of the Church. And you are right – today’s Parliament, at best, respects Christ in name only.

    ‘A question of perception and our modern media might give us the impression that Islam is on the rise or is it simply they are now part of our everyday life and more noticeable than 20 or 30 years past.’

    We in Ulster have more than we had, but a lot less than GB. I’ve been in West Yorkshire and can say that I’ve seen with my own eyes Islam’s rise to power. It confirms all the other reports of folks here on TPQ and in the British media that many towns and cities have virtual Islamic territories – even ‘no-go’ areas for non-Muslims.

    ‘I am sure they play the numbers game also and are plagued with their own forms of sectarianism.’

    Yes, a lot of Islam is radicalized. Or rather, has returned to its roots. Violence is an original doctrine and practice of Islam.

    ‘It is unlikely there will ever be the one world one god what there will be is more of the same god wars.’

    There will be many wars no doubt, over religions and ideologies. But one day there will be one world under one God – when Christ returns to judge the world and remove every evil thing. The new heavens and new earth will exist in eternal perfect harmony with God and man.

    ‘I wouldn’t term it as secret sin the internet does not hide it but goes to lengths to promote what is being peddled which in turn generates advertisement and money is the god of the internet and the technology empires that rule it are in awe of the profit made from it developing even more advanced worlds in cyber space.’

    I was referring to pornography on the internet being secret for the user. Yes, money is the driver, and porn makes a lot of it.

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  193. Tain Bo said:


    ‘the advancement of Nano technology will give machines autonomy with the ability to replicate and eventually think no government is going to impede the power potential within this technology.’

    Still won’t be creating life – just an effective means of mass production of machines.

    ‘Much the same as we humans had a few grunts and gestures that evolved into language and a few stones and sticks that evolved into nuclear weapons. Future machines will not be like the passive computer of today which already talk with one and other.’

    Machines don’t think – they just do their programs extremely fast.

    ‘The external energy source the sun will enable machines to be free from the constraints of being on the electrical grid the possibilities are endless from military to medical. Generations have already grown into the computer age and in that sense are programmed to demand more and more from computers.’

    Still not life. Just carrying out their programs. 010101, etc.

    ‘I would say on the mass murder bit all is pretty equal the villains of our time are no different than the villains of anytime the English empire did more than its share of slaughter just as the Mongols did theirs. Slaughter is slaughter and not unique to one person history is full of slaughter.’

    Indeed – civilization is skin deep. Sinful human nature remains the same down the ages.

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  194. Tain Bo said:

    ‘for argument sake say we were in a UI tomorrow all went well no hiccups the only difference would be that the English no longer ruled. The protestant way of life, will not fall off the face of the earth neither will the British way of life you would still consider yourself British much as I consider myself Irish. I would assume your traditions that your father handed down to you, you passed on to yours, and they in turn will pass on to theirs.’

    Is that how it worked out in the South? Definitely not. The Dublin War Memorial to dead Irishmen of WWI and WWII used as a rubbish dump until recently! Why do you assume it will work out better now? Maybe it would – but I’m cautious with my life and freedoms.

    ‘Though we have to remember what was our world and ways is subject to change youngsters 50 years from now may not follow tradition and further down the line tradition starts to become part of lore.’

    Sure.

    ‘The computer age will influence change not unlike any invention that alters and changed history the difference this is instant and for the most part borders and barriers free and that will have a global impact on how people interact.’

    Maybe a global State will come – but I’m sure that would NOT be a good thing. And nationalism for now seems to be holding its own.

    ‘The supremacy waters run deep as the Irish were forced into being counted as British through force and not democracy.’

    Indeed.

    ‘If a democratic vote in the near future comes about and it points at a UI would you consider that being forced into a republic?’

    I would consider myself forced if the majority of PULS did not vote for it, just a majority of NI citizens. If a majority of PULS voted for it, I would bow to that even if I thought they were mistaken.

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  195. Tain Bo said:
    Is there a difference between Irish Baptists and British Baptists?

    Yes. All Irish Baptists (including here the Baptists of NI) are committed to an Evangelical Statement of Faith – that is, to the historic Baptist understanding of Christian truth. The British Baptists used to hold to that, but long ago most became liberal/progressive/modernist. If you are familiar with the Catholic Church, you will know they have similar problems in places.

    ‘The robber Banks of London used to profit from all the invaded lands it takes more than a figure head of a king or queen to finance an empire.’

    I agree. The Queen is not the power or mover of policy. And behind the Government are such economic powers – how powerful I don’t know. I’m wary of conspiracy theories, but bear them in mind. Alex Jones and others are worth hearing.

    ‘I wouldn’t be interested in keeping a foreign government’s bank healthy the wealth should stay in our banks.’

    Why do you think your banks are free from the elite? Or that the leaders of an Irish socialist republic would not be in the pockets of the elite? Did the elite not bankroll Lenin too?

    ‘ I am pretty simple and don’t need nuclear weapons or the expense of housing and maintaining or updating them. I would prefer seeing that money spent on housing, health, education, and any important social service.’

    OK – but who are you relying on to protect you from a nuclear bully?

    ‘The Brits will always pull the strings I should say the English they wrote the book on modern empire and they make the rules I doubt they would be bluffed in their own game a greater power may bluff them.’

    The wise of this world can be taken in their own traps. If God decides to bring down a nation, the leaders will be reckless.

    ‘The 3 heavy weight religions have imperial roots all have had kings or queens even god has a kingdom.’

    True Christianity has no imperial roots. Apostate Christianity does. But there is nothing wrong essentially with a kingdom form of rule – if the King is perfect in justice and truth and love.


    ‘All have different ideas about how to get to their ideal seat in above.
    Mine is quite simple if I can sit about playing poker having a good glass of Whiskey and playing games of chess then my heart would be content.’

    The eternal home is better than that – infinite love for God and one another enjoyed eternally.

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  196. I've found a lot of valuable insight in The Irish Revolution by William O'Brien (1923). Contains much that addresses the problem PULs had/have with a UI, eg:

    'But a vastly more formidable, and, indeed, an impassable barrier to the conciliation of the Protestant minority was raised by the fundamental transformation of the United Irish movement itself from a national to a sectarian one. For generations Irish Protestants, far from accepting the position of aliens in Ireland's undying fight for liberty, had supplied the major part of its poetry and eloquence, had been its leaders and soldiers and martyrs. When the United Irish League was founded in 1898 to recreate the country's forces, shattered by the Parnell Split of 1890, the basis and first article of its Constitution was copied from that of Wolfe Tone's Society of United Irishmen, mostly Protestants and Dissenters, who pledged themselves "to promote a union of power, friendship, and affection between Irishmen of every religious persuasion." Men who had no part in the foundation of the United Irish League—who, in truth, bitterly resented its intrusion because it put an end to the impotent rivalries of the Parliamentary factions into which the Parnell movement had broken up—had no sooner insinuated themselves into power in the new organization than they proceeded to subvert its first principle of the broadest religious and political equality and paved the way towards its perversion into a squalid confederacy of Catholic place-hunters. The Irish world would have quite certainly risen up in horror against the design had they known, or even suspected, that the effect would be to ostracise from the national ranks, unless on terms of inequality intolerable to men of honour, the co-religionists of the Grattans, Wolfe Tones, Emmets, Davises, and Parnells, whose names had been for a century and a half the most sacred in their political hagiology.'

    The whole chapter is most enlightening.

    http://www.libraryireland.com/irish-revolution/how-ulster-became-difficulty.php

    How is O'Brien seen by Republicans today? How is his All-For-Ireland League regarded?

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  197. Wolfsbane,

    thanks for the responses another long serve I will respond as time allows. I appreciate you taking the time it is educational hearing from the ordinary folk on the opposite side of the barricade.

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  198. Tain Bo said:
    ' I appreciate you taking the time it is educational hearing from the ordinary folk on the opposite side of the barricade.'

    Me too, my friend. take your time, and feel free to reply to only to what interests you.

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  199. Wolfsbane,

    not at all, it is all interesting to me, anyway I think it is just the both of us in friendly banter. I think who ever has to give it the once over can probably skip over it as it is good-natured and in time will run its course.

    Thanks again my friend …

    All the best

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