A Catholic newspaper in Australia refused to advertise the McAleese event because it took umbrage at her previous form in respect of gay lifestyles and women priests. The former president pithily dismissed the paper’s action with the words ‘we have to thank the Catholic Weekly for a full house today.' The poetic justice of blowback from their own behaviour has left the censors upended as a result of resistance to their theology of domination. Tell people something is not allowed and forbidden fruit tends to appear all the more low hanging and irresistible.
At her Sydney outing McAleese called for an end to the old boys club in the Catholic Church. The old boys of course will not listen, thinking it is their place, because they are god’s boys, to call the shots and not be told by a woman what to do. Mary McAleese might have been president but the role was only ceremonial and the value of it diminished by the incumbent being a woman. If Jesus really wanted a woman to sit at the head of the table he would have at least let one be at his table for the Last Supper. What started as a boys club will continue as one, the very reason there are no women priests.
There now, all done and dusted. If only pesky women can hold their tongues, the boys will have no grief to listen to. Just as it should be.
The Catholic hierarchy in Ireland invites comparisons between it and the British judiciary back in the 90s as it underwent a crisis of confidence over appalling vistas and all that. They too thought they had some divine right to go unquestioned and unaccountable. Crusty old boys who would be rushed to hospital if they were seen to crack a smile, they too behaved is if criticism came with a high voltage. Judicial lords and clerical princes should never have to explain themselves to lowly peasants and paupers.
This haughty attitude was explained quite well by Mary McAlesse in relating an exchange she once had with a senior cleric. She had advised him that the Irish Church would have to open its files or face the heavy hand of the state. Obviously thinking that the rules governing Church behaviour had more clout than the rules of a golf clubhouse, the cleric laughed at her, saying the state would not cross the line. He is laughing no more because one mere week after the exchange “the State crossed that line.”
It is not the first time that McAleese has upset the Australian religious with her charges. In June while being interviewed she criticised the head of the Catholic Church in the country over the manner in which a business manager had been appointed.
Here was an opportunity to introduce a process in which people who had necessary qualifications could put themselves forward and we would get - through a transparent process - the best person for the job, who might have been a man, or a woman ...
Surveying the scuttling for rationale she commented:
it just looks to me like the gravitational pull of old boys’ clubs is going to need more than mere words which say ‘we have to do something about it.
In the same interview she criticised an idea of Pope Francis in relation to woman as "completely bonkers."
The pope has argued that we need a new theology of women. I wrote to him yesterday and said we might do that actually but in terms of these jobs you don’t need a new theology of women; you just need to end old boys clubs and you need to introduce equal opportunities processes…
Equality. Now there's a word that should be an 11th Commandment: Women, thou shalt not be equal.
Religion makes a fool of itself on this score. I am not one for lampooning religion. In my home town Catholic parishioners we're a compassionate, charitable community. I think the ordinary Catholics get a raw deal from some sources. Although most people stop believing parables from the scriptures in their early teens, I believe Christianity has an important role to play in today's society. Having said all that if Churches want to play an important role in the twenty first century, then they have to behave in conjunction with twenty first century ideals.
ReplyDeleteThink it was Oscar Wilde who said a priest thinks the same at eighty as he did at eighteen. That's the problem for religions they have to engage with people on a human level. How long do they think people will listen to "do what your told or you wont get into paradise" nonsense. So little women i know actually get worked up about this, it is blatant inequality.
She isn’t against sexism or homophobia in every instance though, just when its safely Catholic in origin.
ReplyDeleteI get some of you both (David & Daithi) are saying.. but.... (always a but)...
ReplyDeleteThat's the problem for religions they have to engage with people on a human level.
Maybe people, the flock or other shouldn't put priest's, minister's, Rabbi's, imams on a pedestal's. And start talking to their religious leaders as normal people with human flaws.
She isn’t against sexism or homophobia in every instance though, just when its safely Catholic in origin
Most religious institutions are sexist. And the Catholic church is up there with the best. Could you imagine the Rev, Sally Hitchiner saying mass on a Sunday morning in Clonard?
Frankie, maybe most religious institutions are, but like that whole Israel/Hamas war crime debate, surely you would start your criticism with the worst offender first? Regarding the pic, I dont do trendy now, I would take the old dribblers of Leitir Mealláin over her, it would be a waste of time for me to attend any church she is leading, my mind would surely be on ‘earthly’ matters. Puerile I know, blame the devil.
ReplyDeleteDaithiD ,
ReplyDeleteI don't see any or much difference in any of them (religious institutions).. They all basically say the same things and cover up the abuses.
surely you would start your criticism with the worst offender first?
That would mean having a hierarchy of sorts.. I don't see how one is more or less sexist than than the other. They're all sexist in their own ways. Kinda like the abuse scandal, some say the Catholic church is worse than the Church of England but to me it's numbers people are playing with.. Abuse is abuse and sexism is sexism..
I gave up on religion years ago. I don't think any good will come out of it. To me religion is all about war, greed and manipulation of the masses for the benefits of the few. I don't need someone telling me how I should interpret 'God's message'.. I can pick up any number of religious books and make my own mind up.
Sister Louise Akers: The Roman Catholic Church is The Last Bastion of Sexism.. She mentions Africa.. What happens there.. The Christian church give the people a bowl of rice and a bottle of water only if they convert to their religion. The Taliban don't let women pray in the same room as men? Kosher struggle......
Like David said.. They all need a complete over haul and brought into the 21st Century..
You dont think a religion where it is enshrined in law that a females word is worth half a males, where its nearly impossible to claim to rape (you need four male witnesses to the act of penetration- even then you run the risk of stoning to death for adultery), where they are forced to veil themselves from the rest of the world, where they are not allowed out unless in the company of male relative ,where they are denied their choice of life partner, where they have their genitals mutilated to prevent enjoyment of sex kind of stands out? Im sorry too that some females cant be Catholic priests, but lets not lose perspective.
ReplyDeleteSome like McAleese would love Catholicism to be the last bastion of sexism for then they wouldn’t have to address anything truly radical. Thanks to globalisation , we should know differently.
Daithi,
ReplyDeleteDo you think it's ok for a mother going to a hospital and say's "Excuse Mr Doctor I'm happily married but I'm having a miscarriage. Can you help me please" And Catholic/Christian Ireland stand about a scratch their balls and deabte the meaning of of life? And in the process the mother dies....
I take on board what you say about female genital mutilation. And I think it's barbaric too. It's something that should be confined to the dark ages. But to think it's confined to the Taliban is wrong. What about good god fearing Christian countries in deepest darkest Africa where it's cultural and not religious? A cultural, not a religious, practice :
This mutilating procedure is often associated mainly with the religion of Islam. This is incorrect. FGM/C is primarily a social practice, not a religious one. Female genital mutilation predated Islam. It originated in Africa and remains today a mainly African cultural practice. Some indicators of this are:
It is widely practiced in countries where the predominant religion is Christianity: Examples are Ethiopia and Kenya.
In multi-faith countries, it is often forced on girls whose families follow all faiths: Animism religions, Christianity, and Islam. For example, it is frequently practiced among both Muslims, Christians and Animists in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sierra Leone, and Sudan.........
Rape is wrong too. And what's happening today in Catholic Ireland and God fearing Britain??? Good peace loving Christians are still covering up their parts in child rape...
Frankie, be careful discerning what is propaganda, look up the “Reliance of the Traveller”, go to the section on the body. Yes it predates Islam, but so does monotheism, what your point? If all religions are equally bad, why is specificity reserved for Catholicism, where as others are afforded a generic one? Why does McAleese keep fudding herself silly for the worst one? (Dont say cause she hasn’t been FGM’d, that would be rude)
ReplyDeleteDaithiD,
ReplyDeleteI think it is beneficial that McAleese dissents while what she dissents from is not in the slightest beneficial (the old boys club).
She probably focuses on the Catholic Church because it is what she knows and belongs to. The same sort of criticism you make of her was long waged against myself and others who dissented from the Provos. I don't think it is persuasive and I don't think it works.
It is always pretty easy to lob a dissenting grenade over the wall rather than drop it on our own side of the wall where it expodes at our feet and the fall out is always considerably greater. It is pretty easy to condemn, say, Israel from afar but a lot less easier to condemn it from within along the lines that Gideon Levy does.
The closer we are to an object The bigger it looks so as far as she is concerned she is tackling the big. The issue as I see it is not that McAleese does not highlight abuses everywhere else (because nobody in the world does or can) but if she is defending practices elsewhere that she criticises within her own area, or if she is trying to prevent criticism of such practices elsewhere being made.
That would be the application of a double standard which would be a cause of concern rather than the fact that she voices dissent against a discriminatory practice.
Dissent is a vital component of democratic life. I think dissenting from the old boys club is commendable.
Daithi,
ReplyDeleteI've taken it on board a while back that you don't like the Taliban. I've personally no time for religion. I'm either too hung over from a Saturday night to even think about going to mass on a Sunday morning and if I'm not hung over... I've better things to do with my time that are more constructive than listening to a priest telling me what I should or shouldn't believe. I was once what would be called a good Catholic boy. From the age of 7 until just before my 21st birthday I was an alter boy in Ardoyne chapel.. The day Bobby Sands died, I was awake at 6.15am and off I went along with my brothers to serve 7am mass.. I done that (serve 7am mass) for years (every third week)...
If people get something out of going to their place of worship and they think they are a better person for it.. I wont stand in their way.
Why does McAleese keep fudding herself silly for the worst one?
No idea. With respect, you'd be better of posing that to Mary and not me. Who in the Catholic church thought it was good idea after abusing kids in Ireland, to send them to Oz and paint them black to be abused by nuns and the good old Irish Catholic Christian Brothers ? Very Catholic....
' A man has told the Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry that he and other young boys being shipped from Northern Ireland to Australia had their faces painted black to make them look like Aborigines. More than 100 children were shipped to Australia in the mid 1900s.
Now in his 70s, the man was sent there in 1953, from the Termonbacca children's home in Londonderry. He also said he was the victim of physical and sexual abuse.
The former child migrant said that on the boat journey to Australia, the boys were made to entertain paying passengers and "our faces were painted black to make us look like Aborigines." ..................
If all religions are equally bad, why is specificity reserved for Catholicism, where as others are afforded a generic one?
In my defense I've mentions at least to branches of Christianity, the Taliban and Judaism. Years ago in London I met a French girl and we had breakfast every now and then for a good few months. Long story short, after about 6wks someone said "Frankie, do you know she's Jewish?".. I said, "Nope, how did you know that.." He replied.."I think her surname gives it away" (it's Cohen).. That night i asked her is she Jewish she said "Yup, is that a problem?" .. I said "No".. I wasn't her religion that interested me.. Today we've a 20 yr old daughter between us..
Wouldn't it be better if the Christian church cleaned up it's own back yard first.. People in glass houses and all that. Growing up in Ardoyne during the troubles I was led to believe protestants are bad etc.. I would be thinking..'Stop, I've protestant friends and they seem ok to to me..".. We'd link up in Corn Market, head to Kens Record store in Smithfield and listen to Big Joe Turner etc...
Daithi,
ReplyDeleteI'm taking it you understand the origins of the Catholic church/ Christianity? You know the Roman Empire didn't really fall with the invasion of the Huns etc..It simply morphed into the Catholic Church and it ( the Roman Empire) still controls vast swathes of ths rock today. I'm not sure who has the most money either the Catholic church or the Jewish lobby. But they both bank with Rothschild...
I've said before on TPQ that Islam about 500 years behind the times, but so are most religions when you look at them.
Frankie, let me be clearer, if by ‘taliban’ you mean Islamic Militants,yup i hate them. If by ‘taliban’ you mean ‘faithful muslims’, then id probably tend towards hate of their ideology too, but they are victims of it.A drinking, smoking, uncovered Muslim is not a faithful Muslim, they have travelled to far from their book (Its like going to a gay Church for snapshot on Christianity).
ReplyDeleteI believe the west has been conned by apostates into a false impression of Islam as an ideology, and something verfiably evil lurks behind them. I believe that any rational reading of Islam and Mohammeds life would make people shudder in a way they do about the Nazis, its just as genocidal with a bit of paedophilia thrown in (and it will get you thrown off BBC radio if you relate what is their doctrine!)
Anthony, if you think the analogy holds then fair enough. But between mine and Marys criticisms, only one sort can lose you your job, only one is frowned upon in general discourse, only one will provoke violent backlash. I know your Provo criticism was ill recieived too, so id posit im the AM in this story, not the Bobby Storey!
DaithiD,
ReplyDeleteI think the analogy holds on the grounds that the criticism from the leadership was that we should have been criticising things worse than the SF leadership. That amounted to an attempt to discourage scrutiny of what was going on.
While I would draw no comparison between yourself and Storey, we are still left with your framing of the dissent of McAleese from bad practice as negative. You are criticising the dissenter who has not been shown by you to have done anything other than tackle an indefensible practice.
I'm taking it you understand the origins of the Catholic church/ Christianity?
ReplyDeleteFrankie, I do. But equally the evils carried out in its name are in direct contradiction to the letter and spirit of the New Testament. There is certainly no equivalence with Islam in this respect.
Growing up in Ardoyne during the troubles I was led to believe protestants are bad etc.
I would be surprised if those hating on the prods did so for doctrinal reasons, infact taking the PRM and excluding those such as Billy McKee and Sean MacStiofain, both communities shared an outright hostility to the Catholic Churches influence in the South.
"No".. I wasn't her religion that interested me.
Same with me, been with the missus ten years, she is originally Japanese. The fact she couldn’t twig my bitterness fully in the beginning was crucial to me persuading her to stay with me initially!
AM of course McAleese is free to choose whatever form of words she wishes, without meaning to repeat myself, it just smacks of cowardice to ignore the biggest anti-gay and anti-female old boy network. Peter Thatchell in the UK is one of the few to address this issue publically.
I'm with AM on this one.
ReplyDeleteSometimes it takes a bit more courage to piss in the tent.
One courageous person of influence pissing in the tent can have as much impact as ten thousand outside doing the same. (Unless they're well tooled up and ready for violence and the consequential responses).
Power rests where our circle of concern intersects with our circle of influence.
Like it or not, McAleese to her credit has worked herself into a position of influence.
This is the way it works, ... like it or not.
Daithi,
ReplyDeleteI call anyone who follows Islam, Taliban. If you want me to seperate them into groups and call some extremists, millitants etc.. I will.
We all know there are extreme Muslims who love waging war and there are extreme Christians who love waging war. The big difference is the extreme Chrisitans waging the war against terrorism don't kill by getting up close and personal. They prefer to drop bombs from 30,000 feet.. Israel like to use the chicken run method.. The Taliban, like I said get up close and personal... So did a lot of provisonals & Loyalists and I'm not forgetting the BA/RUC who also at times got up close and personal when they killed Christians.....
So a faithful Muslim woman has to be covered from head to toe in order to be a faithful and good Muslim? That is no where near the truth. That is simply one interpetation of what the Qu'ran actually says.. I can easily (with out a great deal of thought) rip the heart out of Catholic dogma or and any version of the Christian bible and expose the myths in them.. You have to remember the Qu'ran is basically nothing more or less than a plagiarized version of the bible.
I know Momo married a 9yr old or was she 11 maybe 13 yrs old? We know she was well below 'barely legal'... Didn't the Catholic church indulge themselves in child abuse too and still are today.. Every other branch of Christianity are probably up to their eye balls in child rape too.
Did the west allow themselves to be duped.. Yeah. But sheeple are exactly that.. sheeple.
A lot of the nonsense today can be traced back to WW1 and a family feud like the Hatfields & McCoys only they decided to wage a world war and after draw squiggley lines across counties and rename them. Not once did they think about ethinc boundaries while doing it. They (powers that be after WW1) were only interested in the spoils... Well basically the oil, minerals etc..
Like I said I think all religions are a waste of time (deffo mine) but if anyone thinks they get comfort from going to a place of worship for an hour or two each weekend.. Be my guest. I'll either be still hung over from Saturday night or busy doing something else to think about going to chapel..
There is an oxymoron like the peacelines in the north.. You walk into any Catholic church and there are statues everywhere and people praying in front of them but God told Moses 'I am the lord yourt god..Thou shall not have strange gods before me'. Moses comes down from the Mount and kicks ass because the choosen people where doing exactly that. Praying to a golden calf as if it was some god.. Chances are it had more to do with astrology and Taurus the bull.. Same as as the Christian symbol of the fish is pisces and the story about the Jesus saying.."Go to town and follow the man with the pitcher of water..Age of Aquarius..
DaitihiD,
ReplyDeleteis it not a smear to accuse her of cowardice when she has stood up to injustice on her own turf?
Would it not be more indicative of cowardice for her to have remained silent about the Old Boys Club?
If people speak out against injustice is it not to be welcomed rather than condemned?
The person who speaks out against cruelty against cats will be criticised for having said nothing about cruelty against dogs. Is this really how we should be treating dissent?
Daithi,
ReplyDeleteI was just thinking Maryam Namazie is a dissident..
Is it not a smear to accuse her of cowardice when she has stood up to injustice on her own turf?
ReplyDeleteIs it a smear if its true? McAleese has form in these matters (Blasphemy Law), she is a determined proponent of Islamic exceptionalism and ridicule is quite a mild riposte in countering it. And I really object to the ‘her turf’ concept, if neo-Nazis marched through Drogheda, is your right to protest them voided because you are not a neo-Nazi yourself?
The person who speaks out against cruelty against cats will be criticised for having said nothing about cruelty against dogs. Is this really how we should be treating dissent?
But Mary criticises cruelty against cat and dogs, and she also criticises cruelty against cats on their own. I guess I am interested why she doesn’t single out cruelty against dogs, why nobody does.
So a faithful Muslim woman has to be covered from head to toe in order to be a faithful and good Muslim? That is no where near the truth.
Frankie, I lose patience at this laziness. Don’t just suppose what might reasonably be true (through your Judeo-Christian prism) show me where in the Islamic doctrine these verses are abrogated :
Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them..."33/59
The woman is not only supposed to cover herself, except with relatives, but to look down, so as to avoid making eye-contact with men. 24/31
A woman is only allowed to present herself unveiled to family and slaves. 33/55
An in terms of 54 year old Mohammeds final wife Aisha, she herself narrates in Hadiths of Bukhari she consummated her marriage at age 9 (married at 6) :
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
What you wont be able to show me is the Catholic doctrine for buggering small boys, i dont claim wicked things never happened in the Catholic church, what I will say, for the final time on this page, is that it isn’t sanctioned within doctrine.
DaitihD,
ReplyDeletethe turf referred to is not her geographical one but her Church.
I guess for the bulk of us there are grounds to see it is a smear until it is demonstrated to be true. Up until now I have not seen the substance in your argument that shows her to be a coward. I think people who speak out against bad practice are doing the right thing. She spoke out against bad practice - was she wrong?
You are not being questioned about the use of ridicule, which is different from smearing. By all means ridicule. It is one of the biggest weapons against the claims of the religious. But it can also mask the lack of substance in an argument.
Nobody singles out cruelty against dogs? There is a ton of criticism from a swathe of people towards Islam and Islamic practices which invalidates the 'no one does' perspective.
There has also been an abdication of responsibility as was demonstrable during the Danish anti-theocratic cartoons.
But again back to where McAleese sits, the Catholic Church has inflicted much more damage on Irish society than Islam ever has. It is right that she speaks out against it? Or do you disagree and would you prefer that she stayed silent? She would then be labelled a coward from a different corner.
Daithi,
ReplyDeleteWhat you wont be able to show me is the Catholic doctrine for buggering small boys, I don't claim wicked things never happened in the Catholic church
What can both show each other is where Catholic priests and nuns abused and raped kids and the Catholic Church covered it up and denied it. I can, if you want put up links where children were forced to swear on the bible that what happened they were forbidden to talk about or they wouldn't get into heaven..
I can easily link from Catholic books to prove Mary the mother of Jesus was 12 years old when she married Joesph..He was 80 or 90.... What's that make Joesph the carpenter..? I'd say like Momo, a kiddy fiddler. If you want the links I can supply them....
Again...To me religion is all about war, greed and manipulation of the masses for the benefits of the few.
the turf referred to is not her geographical one but her Church.
ReplyDeleteI think I understood this correctly, so my original point is valid. Im suggesting her home turf should be sexism, thus anyone who inhabits that space should be subject to criticism. I thought you were implying because she isn’t a Muslim she did feel capable of referencing them.
Nobody singles out cruelty against dogs? There is a ton of criticism from a swathe of people towards Islam and Islamic practices which invalidates the 'no one does' perspective.
OK you win this one! I should of said ‘not many’, and its a sliding scale the further up the power hierarchy you go. No world leaders do criticise Islam, they give it a special name like “Islamism/Islamist” or “Extremist Islam” which ive noted on this site are to Islam what the term “Dissident” is to Republican.
But again back to where McAleese sits, the Catholic Church has inflicted much more damage on Irish society than Islam ever has.
Many would agree at this point im sure, but the trend Europe wide is towards Islamic practices (well all eat unlabeled Halal meat in the UK for instance), im not sure it will always be the case.
It is right that she speaks out against it?
I never said any different,but I think choosing to speak out against sexism in one area, but ignoring others is not automatically a neutral position.
I can easily link from Catholic books to prove Mary the mother of Jesus was 12 years old when she married Joesph
Frankie, you cant. Her age is not given in the bible, she could just of easily been 21.Just because some random book speculates on it, does not make it fact, and is so far removed from the hadiths ive given you to go on.
Again...To me religion is all about war, greed and manipulation of the masses for the benefits of the few.
And ive never tried to convince you otherwise, Im just emphasising that one religion in particular has war , greed and manipulation as it sacraments.
I’m suggesting her home turf should be sexism, thus anyone who inhabits that space should be subject to criticism.
ReplyDeleteIs this her home turf or one you want to put her in so that she can be criticised for dissenting from bad practice in the Church? If a person wants to criticise say torture in Ireland they are right to do so even if they never mention it in Argentina. If they try to stop others mentioning it in Argentina or support torture there, then a problem emerges.
Alternatively, is she challenging sexism in the real rather than in the abstract and makes its concrete through a specific instance? I don’t know but is she saying the right thing or the wrong thing?
She is criticising a specific abuse. Can you point to a specific example of where she has supported abuse? Or a case where she has sought to prevent others from criticising abuse?
I have no dog in the fight regarding her one way of the other. If my memory is right she covered up in Saudi Arabia which irked me because I felt the Irish president should be speaking out against these things. (That all might be wrong but I have some hazy recollection of it). I just find the case you make against her as unsubstantiated. It looks too much like the SOP for deflecting criticism away from the institution and onto the dissenter.
Her criticisms of the Church are valid and pretty mild given that there are people in the human rights lobby who think the last pope should have been in The Hague for crimes against humanity.
As for the sliding scale all you really tell us is that people don’t share your view of what Islam is. There is a wide body of opinion - not just further up the scale - that sees it as internally differentiated, with competing interests and agendas. How doctrinal it happens to be is a matter of ongoing debate. The term political Islam or Islamicism is used to denote something more specific than Islam per se. To me it is a religion, pretty much as useless as the rest of them. Religion is just an opinion and any of them that try to press it as some unquestionable truth are dangerous. This goes as much for what the Catholic Church has done with its strictures on the use of condoms in Africa, its war on women’s rights, as it does for Islam and its reprehensible ‘truths.’
Let the lot of them practice their opinions on themselves and not on us who don’t share them.
But from what I can see McAleese is saying the right things rather than the wrong things.
if by ‘taliban’ you mean Islamic Militants,yup i hate them. If by ‘taliban’ you mean ‘faithful muslims’, then id probably tend towards hate of their ideology too
ReplyDeleteWhy let yourself get eaten inside by hate?
I believe that any rational reading of Islam and Mohammeds life would make people shudder in a way they do about the Nazis,
And by the same score any rational reading of Christianity people would see the parallels between it and the cult of Mithras with a whole lot of paganism thrown in. And a side dish of Sol Invictus (Sun worshipers).
Frankie, you cant. Her age is not given in the bible, she could just of easily been 21.Just because some random book speculates on it, does not make it fact, and is so far removed from the hadiths ive given you to go on.
What I said Daithi was... I can easily link from Catholic books to prove Mary the mother of Jesus was 12 years old when she married Joesph
So if it's not in the bible it's not true? The 'random book' I'm talking about is the Catholic Encyclopaedia...
“When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, “the Lord’s brother”). A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place.”
‘History of Joseph the Carpenter’ .
Chapter 3 and 4 says:
3. Now when righteous Joseph became a widower, my mother Mary, blessed, holy, and pure, was already twelve years old. For her parents offered her in the temple when she was three years of age, and she remained in the temple of the Lord nine years.
4. Therefore they immediately sent out, and assembled twelve old men of the tribe of Judah. And they wrote down the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. . And after the holy virgin had spent two years in his house her age was exactly fourteen years, including the time at which he received her
What you have to keep in mind Daithi is neither Mary, Joesph or Jesus were Christian but Jews. And in their day it was normal and accepted that when a girl reached puberty she was married off. And you have to throw into the mix the bible didn't exist at their time. Not as we have come to know it today.. There were loads of books left out because the power that be at the time didn't agree with certain narratives.
You mentioned Peter Thacthell earlier. Didn't he argue for the age of consent to be lowered to 14 at one stage...?
AM, and she addressed a gender segregated audience whilst speaking on womens rights. I do feel that the Israel/Hamas debate on this site is quite instructive in this area too, because the “silence is consent” argument is quite persuasive. But i dont want to go around in circles.
ReplyDeleteWhat I said Daithi was... I can easily link from Catholic books to prove Mary the mother of Jesus was 12 years old when she married Joesph
Sure Frankie, its the “prove” bit I disputed. Their ages are just speculation as they are not given in the bible, Aisha tells us her age, and it makes for uncomfortable reading for modern Koran readers (they try to dispute it, those pesky inferior western morals eh?). Anyway, whose tranches of Islamic practice are derived from Mohammeds actions, as the most perfect example of a man, he is the spirit rule against which others a measured. There isn’t an equivalent in Mary/Joesph to Mohammed/Aisha, or in the bible/koran as a whole.
Yes I know Christ was a Jew, maybe he lacked self belief?
DaithiD,
ReplyDeleteit may be the same incident and I mixed it up. She did something that seemed wrong at the time. Yet, there seems no getting away from the fact that she has done the right thing here; attacked the abuse and her stand is to be welcomed. And when she supports abuse it is not to be welcomed.
Frankie,
as for Bibles, Torahs and Korans, it is all junk they just made up and use as a means to control. Morality is hardly rooted in any of that.
There are plenty of nutters in the Islamic world willing to put people to the sword for not buying into the bollix but there is no shortage of them in the Christian-Judean world either. Religion and state power is a most lethal combination. I very much subscribe to Maryam Namazie's campaigning against it.
Nice article!
ReplyDelete