Thursday, May 1, 2014

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Retribution Retards Revelation

Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams has been arrested in connection with the 1972 disappearance and death of Jean McConville. Despite much political handwringing about never returning to the dark days of the past, pre-peace accord toxicity continues to pollute the present and some, the PSNI among them, are intent on ensuring it remains that way.

Sinn Fein had hoped to play it cutely by having Mr Adams make himself available to meet the PSNI so that the unseemly spectacle of an arrest could be avoided which would surely project the image of the party president as an official suspect at the centre of a police investigation of an action widely regarded as a war crime. The party would have sought to spin the ‘meeting’ as their leader ‘putting manners’ on the police. Any chance of seizing that initiative was lost the minute Mr Adams presented himself at Antrim PSNI station where the PSNI duly placed him under arrest.

The party, stung by the turn of events, has taken to accusing the British police of interfering in the electoral process. Prior to his arrest Adams said he was suspicious of the timing in the midst of an election campaign. It was a line repeated by Gerry Kelly and Mary Lou McDonald last night following his detention and again this morning by Conor Murphy. McDonald in particular is in something of a bind as she had previously welcomed the arrest of Mr Adams’ fellow negotiator at 1972 truce talks in London between the IRA and the British government, Ivor Bell. Sinn Fein is also hoist on its own petard, having agreed to the process of evidence based prosecutions for past conflict activity, even going as far as to abandon a long standing republican demand for amnesty.

Given that the PSNI has since March been arresting others in connection with the McConville investigation, had it postponed the arrest of Gerry Adams until after the elections it could have been accused of political policing.

Yet the detention of Mr Adams is a political arrest for which the PSNI should be robustly rebuked. Its pursuit of the Sinn Fein president oozes political motivation through its pores although not for the reasons stressed by his party.  One day before the arrest which was part of an ongoing British police inquiry into IRA activity, the British government slapped down, on the grounds of it contravening public interest, a demand for an inquiry into the 1971 British army massacre of civilians in Mr Adams’ then neighbourhood, West Belfast’s Ballymurphy.

This suggests that even if there is evidence of some sort against Mr Adams, it is not the existence of evidence per se that fuels the drive to prosecute. There is unlikely to be material evidence any more substantive than has previously been available. At the same time the PSNI and British government know the identity of every single member of the British security establishment who killed Irish civilians while on duty. They know the police, prison service and army torturers. They know the state personnel who colluded with loyalist deaths squads in killings such as that of the lawyer Pat Finucane. They are also in possession of the material evidence to prosecute many of these people. In the case of the Ballymurphy massacre they have had the evidence for 43 years and have shown not the slightest inclination to use it.

The family of Jean McConville have every right to know the story behind the abduction, death and disappearance of their mother. All victims of the North’s conflict have the same right to know what happened to their loved ones. The tragedy is that few will get it courtesy of the PSNI making this type of vengeful political arrest.

102 comments:

Roy McCann said...

So there is no truth that Gerry Arrived at Antrim police station with his favorite Teddy, a blanket and a pair of old slippers. Everything is carefully choreographed in this debacle of a peace process. This answers the critics who have been wondering why Gerry has never been arrested? It also settles the Sinn Fein base who are embarrassed by Martin in duck tails kissing Lizzie's hiney. 'See, they still fear Gerry, 'You can almost hear them scream. Gerry Adams is indispensable to the Peace process. There is no way the Brit Government are allowing anyone to rock their boat.
Prediction, Gerry is released within 24 hours without charges and Sinn Fein lock up some of those voters who were maybe beginning to waken up and smell the coffee.

AnBuachaill said...

SF are only worried about political policing when it is used on their own strand of republicanism. They are more than willing to tolerate political policing of many genuine republicans who oppose SF's strategy.

How can SF talk about political policing from one side of their mouth, while calling for nationalists/republicans to support the PSNI with the other.They can't have it both ways

menace said...

I wonder if, when he's offered it, again, will he take and keep the handler's 'thirty pieces of silver'?

Aine said...

I have to say I loved Martin and his " dark side" comments today- now inclinations that those anti Sinn Fein elements colluded with the dark side of the psni and created this scenario were fearless leader walked into the barracks and found himself stuck there for a few hours. I do however agree that the HET by far focused on republicans of past and psni/mi5 targeting republicans of present. All this alongside villier's recent statements denying many families justice all culminate to ensure focus is not placed on state actions and state collusion with loyalist killing squads. ......... But we all know this already

Strabane Bhoy said...

Anthony your a tout, simple as.

jgr33n said...

Hope he kept one of those OTR Get-out-of-jail-free cards handy for a day like this....

Great points AM around the British Army but they are never going to admit to any wrongdoing because it would undermine their own myth of their armed forces being somehow noble beyond noble and let's face it, they know they can screw with PSF any time they want, they own them after all.

gerard hodgins said...

a british constabulary has no right to arrest any irish person on irish soil and incarcerate them in a british prison on irish soil.

the selective nitpicking of the past has claimed a new victim and taken an interesting twist.....

john larkin's line in the sand to separate the past from the present has taken a step closer to being reality!

gerard hodgins said...

just listened to j118 comment that it is all an "agenda..driven by people maliciously and vehemently hostile to the peace process, people who could be described as former republicans ... now in consort with the dark side of policing".

is he for real? a protected species condemning unrepentant republicans as being touts in consort with the dark side of policing. jesus wept.

marty said...

I heard last night that the quisling $inn £eind president for life Gerry Itwasntme handed himself into the psni/ruc ,s Antrim custody suite aptly named because you can bet the big lig will be feted like his new found friends in the states agents,this piece of farce is I believe just for the optics,allowing the po-lice to say that they have followed the evidence trail,there is not an arseful of lazers chance that he will be charged with anything.
Strabane bhroy if Anthony is a tout does that make him a member of quisling $inn £eind?

Max Headroom said...

Strabane Bhoy said...
Anthony your a tout, simple as.

Typical schoolboy playground statement while selectively ignoring the fact that Sinn Fein is a tout promoting party.

God Save their Queen!

Strabane Bhoy said...

Anthony getting republicans to tout on each other which led to arrest of Bell, Adams and more. But that's ok because he is an opponent of Sinn Fein isn't it?. Some people hate Sinn Fein so much they are happy to let republicans tout on each other. As bad as loyalists, who haven't stopped gloating over the arrests.

Henry JoY said...

Shocking news...worst I've heard since the shooting of Michael Collins!

God forgive me but I hope this treacherous bastard is charged, convicted and sentenced.

Fionnuala Perry said...

It was due process for everyone else and now it's 'the dark side of policing'
He presented himself to the police!
I for one don't take an ounce of delight in this, but let's get real.
It's all starting to look like window dressing with Gerry dictating what goes where?

Dixie said...

I love these clampets who spit tout out yet the clowns never wonder why the highest ranking touts in PIRA, Scap, Donaldson, McShane etc never managed to put away Gerry or Marty.

In fact according to recently released documents Garret Fitzgerald put this question to Jim Prior in 1984 when he asked why Raymond Gilmour wasn't used to put McGuinness inside...

Prior said; with likely the most idiotic reply ever...Because we didn't have the evidence.

What?!...You mean Raymond put most of Derrys PIRA membership inside and he didn't mention Marty??

The Brits didn't say to him we need McGuinness off the streets so you go against him as well in the witness box?

The mind is boggling here!!

Dixie said...

Strabane Bhoy are you wearing the latest Celtic top as you type out your drivel?

OR...Or... I bet you're HM the Q aren't you? ....Sinn Fein's newest supporter, sitting on the oul throne with the laptop and you typing away letting on you're a shinner from Strabane who supports Celtic. What a cover M'am... as in ham!!

We love you Gerry we Do...

Hold on... I bet once they got him into the dark side they gave him pints of Guinness saying they were Cappuccinos in order to loosen the tongue and he could only see the foamy bit.

Before long the dark side will be ringing to choruses of 'Always look on the Bright side of Life...De Do!'

Henry JoY said...

It's said in 'Special Forces' trainings, operatives are encouraged to 'take the women out first'...and having campaigned alongside some sound and solid campaneras this I well understand.

Well done to Carrie on her contribution on tonight's VB Show...personable, articulate and convincing without appearing either defensive or pushy; well done again! (Particularly felt rebuttal of Vincent's and the sagart's attempt of veneration of Grizzly Adams was top class).
Put her out to bat more often Anthony!

Niall said...

A well-choreographed piece of political dancing if ever there was. He’ll be released pending further investigation which will amount to nothing and Bell and all the others will at some point in the distant future have the charges dropped...nothing will come of any of it......on another thought, as McConville's disappearance continues to be referred to a possible war crime, should there be an evening named in honour of a conspirator in to the war crime – the Dark Hughes - for he seemed to have unusual insight in to her death....and Price as well........oh, what’s that noise in the distance? Why it’s the thunder of crumbling masonry from a pedestal and look, who do those busts belong too?

David Higgins said...

Henry joy,
We should oppose any attempts at legitimizing British policing in Ireland and that includes the political arrest of any combatant regardless of their current political outlook. Britain has no jurisdiction. While republicans on this site and elsewhere have devoted time and no short of courage highlighting the betrayal within the unionist appeasing g.f.a, we can not let any hatred of sinn fein allow us to fall to their level of accepting British policing in Ireland.

Strabane bhoy,
Tell me out of curiosity if you think A.m is a tout for his project, then surely the same applies to the s.f leadership who openly accept British policing in Ireland, who call on republicans to tout on p.f.rs.
I think we have to be careful in our reaction to this it could diminish the core republican values that must be held high for future generations.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Helen mc Kendry is going to name names! Is this not what kicked this all off initially?

frankie said...

Helen mc Kendry is going to name names! Is this not what kicked this all off initially?

No. What kick started this was the day the day someone in the PIRA decided to disspear Jean McConville. But I wonder if Gerry now knows Helen McKendry is going to name, names..

What I don't understand is why Gerry Admas made himself available to the PSNI but never took up Billy McKee's offer of a face to face and to deny to him (Billy) that he wasn't in the PIRA. Maybe he is more afraid of Billy McKee than he is of the PSNI..

frankie said...

Strabane Bhoy,

Are you saying Anthony is part of the 'dark forces' in play that Martin McGuinness is talking about..?

If Ms Morris hadn't of thought she was Miss Marple, all this could very well have been dealt with in a more 'adult' way. Up until then the PSNI had Brendan Hughes words and very little else.

Strabane, maybe if Gerry & Co had of..
A..Listened to the voice's of reason in 1986
B..Took on board the whispers of dissent in 1993/94
C..Had of negoiated the GFA better
D..Read the small print in the Policing Justice bill...

He'd still be contesting his election today.

menace said...

Well, well, the boul Danny on the wireless now stating how horrendous it is Brendan Hughes, Delorus Price et. al are booby trapping the peace process and virtually describing them as despicable.
We've come a long way, Brendan and Delorus are dead while himself, wee Marty and Gerry make a pile of money off their efforts.

tiarna said...

Re: http://thepensivequill.am/2014/04/arrest-adams-now-for-mcconville-murder.html

Is Evelyn Gilroy going to give States evidence against Adams after going public about her knowledge of Adams's role in the McConville atrocity?

frankie said...

The only person to answer what Evelyn Gilroy may or may not do is Evelyn Gilroy.

This morn' on Nolan, Brian Rowan said the PSNI approached two people yesterday (one in Belfast) to ask if they would make statements. (Rowan is on after 9.30news, Morrison is on and Alex Kane..)

Fionnuala Perry said...

Frankie,
Names being named was what kick started this?
Rose tinted glasses are for Jackanory.

Feel te love said...

So for decades we grew up with, the brits cant be trusted and yet SF who would have been big sellers of this proposition, decided that now things would be different.

They have been wrong from the start of the peace process to put any of their chips in the pot and they were monumentally wrong when they went all in by endorsing state forces. The big hat said on Nolan today, they went all in, yes, no doubt thinking over the past couple of years, that the wave of egomania they have been on the crest of,would roll over everything,sweeping away the past and their association with it. They deserve everything they get and it is now coming.

Mackers you were 100% right when you talked about the peace process filtering republicanism out of republicans. Looks like big G may not make it through this latest filtering process.

This whole situation is becomming critical, all those involved in the ordeal of the Mc Conville family have every reason to be nervous. The gennie is out of the bottle and it is not going back in.

Strabane Bhouy, catch yourself on. M MC G has been calling on people to go to the police and give information, then he calls in to question the integrity of the force. He cant have it both ways. SF have been deluded and out of touch with reality for some time now.

While they have been bent over with their snouts in the trough, the brits have been administering a right royal shafting.

The pity is that the vols on the ground that day will probably carry the can, while some of the architects of the fear generating tactic of disappearing will never face a war crimes tribunal, which they should and the Mc Conville family have every right to pursue such an action.

frankie said...

Fionnuala,

Some of the people involved have been known to the McConville family from day 1. Seems like Helen McKendry has had enough and is going to tell the PSNI what she knows.

Had the PIRA simply shot her and left her in an alley way, then the question of Jean McConville wouldn't be headline news.

larry hughes said...

'At the same time the PSNI and British government know the identity of every single member of the British security establishment who killed Irish civilians while on duty. They know the police, prison service and army torturers. They know the state personnel who colluded with loyalist deaths squads in killings such as that of the lawyer Pat Finucane. They are also in possession of the material evidence to prosecute many of these people. In the case of the Ballymurphy massacre they have had the evidence for 43 years and have shown not the slightest inclination to use it'.


run with fox hunt with hound...?

not even going to say it...'told ya'...

Dixie, bang on the money my old son...bright side... if he shares a cell with Liam he will get his hole properly examined for free!! save a flight like. Tho maybe it was Liam who wrecked his arse in the first place!!

larry hughes said...

marty mi6 sent in a request to downtown for Gerry, Candy Devine played it.

http://youtu.be/Ww4v2cP-MDo

menace said...

Regardless of all else, this particular arrest, at this particular time does smack of political control, still, within policing in the six counties, or, the RUC haven't gone away you know to paraphrase the boul Gerry himself.
It mirrors the arrest of Gerry McGeough at the count center seven years ago though here at least special branch waited for the count to finish.
I wholly expect that, within the next eight hours Adams will be released without charge while SDLP, Fianna Fáil and the unionists will sit back expecting votes to transfer from SF to them.
Frankie, right, leaving these youngsters with nowhere to grieve was a mistake which has come back to haunt them.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Frankie,
It's highly questionable where all the information for the latest arrests came from?
The majority of the people arrested are no way linked to Boston.
So who has named all those names.
The alternative theory is British intelligence services have sat on the info for over forty years and our now using it as a double whammy.

wolfe tone said...

Whether we like it or not it is patently obvious that Gerry Adams arrest is nothing to do with justice etc but more to do with upcoming elections. There are similar parallels with whats going on here with the shinners and with what is happening in britland concerning nigel farage and UKIP. The media outlets have been attempting to hit farage and his cronies and every established political party has put away their hostility for each other and united to kick farage as well. Likewise in ireland the same seems to be happening.
Is the establishment in england involved in this campaign because they fear the UKIPs ruining the wee regime they have going on at westminster?
Are FF,FG etc to the same extent worried too one must wonder?
I have no time for sinn fein but as a republican i have no time for those other corrupt dodgy treacherous 'republicans' in FF or FG either. If the shinners go into the dail and bloody the nose of those 'irish' people in there who have betrayed us people in the north just as much then so be it.
Republicans fail to notice that that no one in the 26 counties is talking about reunifiation in the dail; i wonder if the vitriol the political parties in the south have for the shinners at the minute is because it reminds them of the wee problem up north they like to ignore? Personally i dont care who does it but the partitionists in the free state need to be confronted just as much as they need to be confronted up here.

larry hughes said...

fionnuala

totally disagree. the same prod 'police' that interned ONLY taigs and who trawled RC areas to nail wee catholic fellas in ther teens are at work still. They haven't gone away you know. Gerry and martymi6 are learning that they will NEVER NEVER NEVER get past the hun veto... nomatter who's arse they kiss. England help Ireland? wise the fuk up, there's no 'interest' in that.

frankie said...

The PSNI have got court space cleared for this afternoon.. (according to David Blevins Sky News)..

Henry JoY said...

David Higgins says
"We should oppose any attempts at legitimizing British policing in Ireland and that includes the political arrest of any combatant regardless of their current political outlook. Britain has no jurisdiction."

I like you David would generally be in agreement that any attempt to legitimise British policing in Ireland ought be challenged and the arrest of any combatant like-wisely opposed.

However I do have reservations. Must republicans blindly afford such consideration in the Adams case?
And can't there be legitimate exceptions to this general rule?

Firstly it's somewhat ironic that your comment urges opposition to the arrest of combatants since Adams is on the record ad infinitum in his denials of ever being a combatant!
Secondly if exceptions do in fact prove the rule I can't think of a better supporting example than in the case of this bad-assed treacherous renegade.
Thirdly and finally Britain maintains jurisdiction on part of the island because of partition...a partition that Adams and his cohort formally accepted in 1986 through their recognition of the southern partitionist assembly in Leinster House.

Off with his head!

tiarna said...

Frankie

She wouldnt be the only one to know her intentions. The psni/pps would know if Gilroy is looking for imunity as an'assisting offender' aka supergrass. We might soon find out if adams is going to be charged.

Max Headroom said...

The whole thing is another example of the failure in Sinn Fein's so called strategy.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Larry
Where did I say England was helping Ireland ????

Tiarna,
Maybe of you dealt in facts and not your own fiction people might actually be able to follow you.
Re read Evelyn's article.

David Higgins said...

Henry joy,
I wasn't talking about Adams per se. It doesn't sit right with me that republicans are cheering the Brit police making arrests, is that what we've come to? If republicans have disagreements it should be kept internal. The fact that some people are lauding this arrest makes them no better than s.f in my eyes. If we justify the British existence we're fucked. We can't let internal disagreements that have developed into hatred detract from the fact that the enemies of Irish republicanism are the imperialist British state.
The danger for me is we become so wrapped up in the antics of s.f we go further and further backwards in the reunification process. If we carry on like this in twenty years time very few people will be talking about an u.i never mind campaigning for it. That's my fear h.j. Fuck Adams republicanism is bigger than him.

frankie said...

Fionnuala,
On Wendy's TalkBack Radio Ulster (starts 19min 32sec) show today Daryl Macintyre reckons it goes like this. Around the same time Dolours Price gave the Irish News/Belfast Telegraph interview's, she is also gave a recorded version captured on DVD Dublin hotel. And the DVD's found their way into the vaults of Boston. On the DVD's Daryl Macintyre claims Dolours Price gave a complete 'A to Z' of what happene to Jean McConville.

The DVD's weren't part of the Belfast Project and Darly MacIntryre states that in the interview. But when the PSNI got their hands on part of the tapes they discovered the DVD's. Up until then the PSNI didn't have much outside of Voices...

Now Helen McHendry has saids she'll name people... it's any one guess how this pans out.

frankie said...

Now they (PSNI) are asking for more time..

frankie said...

Tiarna
Gerry Adams arrested: Senior republicans Evelyn Gilroy and Peter Rodgers refuse to give statements to PSNI over Sinn Fein leader


And they are probably the same two people Brian Rowan mentioned this morning on Nolan starts at 32mins

sean bres said...

There's a bigger issue at stake here than Gerry Adams... Who will they come for next? This is a devious attempt to criminalise the republican struggle through selective prosecution of the past and one's antipathy for Gerry Adams or his party and politics should have no bearing on our opposition to this process

menace said...

If I was Oliver Gibson I'd be booking my flight today cos that's what people in Fermanagh should be demanding.
Of course he could simply arrange to speak to the peelers in Antrim but what's sauce for the goose and all.

tiarna said...

FPerry

I only read what AM re-produced and he tends to be reliable on republishing what people have said and he provides this quote from Gilroy: "He has got away with so much over the years. He now seems to be getting away with this as well."

Gilroy sounds awfully like someone with something to tell and she aims to do it. Frankie posts above indicates that she seems no longer to want to give states evidence on whatever it is she is claiming to know about Adams and his role in the McConville atrocity. Her own involvement might have prevented the PPS from granting her immunity for exchange on info on Adams? Or maybe she thought she had phoned the PSNI confidential line and not a journalist??

If Frankie is right (Re: Nolan) then the PSNI seem to have approached her for whatever evidence she thinks she has.



Sean Bres

"Who will they come for next?"

You could ask Evelyn Gilroy.

Henry JoY said...

Sorry Sean but I for one won't be supporting any campaign you might want to organise in support of bad-ass Adams.

Dixie said...

I see Jude Collins already has Adams in jail...

"Gerry Adams (at the time of writing) is in an Antrim prison cell..."

And Danny Morrison from the Shinner Outback comments below the piece...

"The peak of success for Anthony McIntout and Ed Baloney! Baloney actually had the chutzpah to write in a newspaper this morning that it was a bid by Adams to become Tanaiste!"

http://www.judecollins.com/2014/05/five-pieces-food-thought-last-night/#comment-27700

I asked Danny the Drongo (google it)...

"How can you tout on someone who wasn't in the IRA?"

And I also put it to the Drongo...

"In fact Danny by calling Mackers a tout you are confirming Adams was in the IRA and involved in the killing of Jean McConville, otherwise how can you tout on someone for something they weren't involved in?"

I wonder will those questions be carried given that blog is swarming with Adamsites?

sean bres said...

Don't get me wrong HJ it's sickening to see the hypocrisy being played out. Needless to say I'll not be participating in any campaign for Gerry Adams but I still think there's a wider issue involved

JoshC said...

Great points from David H and Sean Bres.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Tiarna,
Where does she mention giving states evidence.
I tend to go for the horses mouth and you've got it wrong . Surprise surprise!

DaithiD said...

This article and a large amount of the comments are baffling. Gerry Adams has done more than any visible person to normalise partition, and eviscerate republicanism. Bombings and shootings were necessary evils undertaken to achieve a noble objective, I see Adams potential removal from the stage from a similar perspective.We should be as flexible in our methods as our opponents are,this is the dirty peace after all.

Gerard. said...

Lads and lassies don't worry Gerry will be out for the DFS sale on Monday, always look on the bright side of life...do do do ...

frankie said...

Daithi, it's easy to understand. Gerry Adams was arrested in connection of the murder and secret burial of Jean mcConville. Tonight the PSNI were granted an extention to question Gerry Adams for at least 48hrs more (then he's released or charged<--doubt the PSNI will ask for more time).

The PSNI have lots of paper work in front of them and probably some DVD's taken in a Dublin hotel where Dolours Price is alleged to have given a complete A-Z of what happened to Jean McConville (scroll back and listen to the 'Daryl MacIntryre interview)..And it was always going to take more than 48hr's to go through the paperwork. Personally I'd be very surprised if now GA was released unconditionally (Too much time has passed).

Then throw into the mix Daithi when you are old and grey and your grand kids ask 'What happened in the Ukraine, Syria, Argentina...southern Sudan (which has the hall marks of another Rwanda)..You'll be snookered because oral history projects, investigative journalism wont exist if this (release of more Belfast Project tapes) continues.

Last part Daithi to add to the equation is this. Every other day former republicans & loyalist's are being arrested for pre 1998 murders etc. But not one member of the crown forces. There is no level playing field.

frankie said...

Danny Morrison is going live on Radio 5 live just after the 11pm news...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/5live


(to lazy to post the link)

David Higgins said...

DaithiD,
Couldn't disagree more. Being flexible in our methods just sounds like s.f language to me. Once you start legitimizing the British apparatus as far as i am concerned you become no better than the very people we've been calling sellouts for god knows how long.

frankie said...

Chance's are Gerry Adams is in front of some post grad. and not RUC special branch.

grouch said...

maybe gerry will fess up and we will all live happily ever after.

DaithiD said...

frankie, with respect, I understand the process of what is going on. But it seems anti-treaty politicians cannot lay a glove on Adams. The media are more likely to parade the bloodied corpses of anti-treaty republicans than peruse their arguments. It seems this angle of attack is something that is shaking Sinn Fein to the core (McGuinness is talking of a review of police support!), yet people are ready to disavow it. That’s the part that makes no sense.
David, I presume you are in favour of the prosecution of the Bloody Sunday / Ballymurphy paratroopers? Is it legitimizing the British state in using them to legally pursue an enemy? Or is it turning this into a new tactic in the war?

Fionnuala Perry said...

According to Squinter on morrisons's twitter.
'Adams should stay in as the response on the doorsteps is amazing'
Is this all been stage managed, choreographed? Get him in to get the voters out?
Mural, mass rally tomorrow sympathy vote!
Meanwhile our road is being dubbed with 'tout' slogans by the party who is encouraging touting.
Harry Houdini couldn't pull off this amount of stunts yet, it's looking likely that Adams the magnifico can.

Tain Bo said...

Frankie,

I got a laugh at you being too lazy to post the link it is bad enough reading Morrison but listening to him is ear bleeding annoying.
So, thanks for not linking it as I always open your links but am already tired of the SF sob story victims of their own policy.

sean laig said...

Coming hot on the heals of the Banquet, the political reality is that the PSNI is, at least perversely, dictating the policies of SF, and is in a position to determine it's short term and long term strategies. Sorry, Wolfe Tone, I like your assessment, but SF aren't ever going to bloody free state noses. They are going to do the opposite. This situation puts me in mind of the dilemma of the Home Rule Party and Charles Steward Parnell in 1890. The moral question of the day was as shocking at the time as the McConville case is today. Namely was Parnell riding another man's wife or not. Parnell did the honorable thing said he was, and intended to marry her after divorce. The Home Rule Party was subsequently split to pieces, but somewhere out of it all, came a radicalization of Irish politics. It became obvious that British made parliamentary democracy wasn't worth the woolsack it was written on, for all of Ireland to see. Now in 2014, we have another emerging Irish Parliamentary party, and a kind of uncrowned king, (unless by Marty incognito). For sure Gerry Adams is no CSP, but it is possible for history to repeat itself amid all the melodramas.

larry hughes said...

Fionnuala

wasn't getting at you there.

As for Adams he's getting hung drawn and quartered on Monday, tickets sold out so fast they had to schedule in 5 more performances!!

larry hughes said...

Maybe he'll go on hunger-strike to get Mary Lou elected in Europe again?

Fionnuala Perry said...

Larry
Lol. I think I'll wait for the video much too squeamish to watch it live .

tiarna said...

Fperry

Gilroy went public about knowing what adams has gotten away with and she intends to put a stop to him by exposing him. So who else is she going to give her evidence too? She has backed down on that for reasons best known to herself when the psni took her up on offer. Bet she wishes she had stuck to the confidential hot line than going public. If adams is charged will she turn up as witness a, b, or c ...?

David Higgins said...

Daithi,
Ideally i would like to see the perpetrators of Derry/Ballymurphy in the hague if not i would like to see British courts punishing British troops for war crimes. I don't see how that is relevant for me there is a world of difference between British courts punishing the actions of British troops and republicans calling on the British state to prosecute any republican. To be honest it turns my stomach.
That's not to say i don't understand your frustrations and see your logic but for me it can never be justified.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Tirana,
Your always lurking about with a boot to stick in someone.
Sorry I replied it just gives you credence. Whatever!!!

Fionnuala Perry said...

Tiara,
So bloody judgemental for someone who hides behind a mask. As I said earlier your like a vulture always waiting on a victim so bloody condescending, bet if we knew who you were that would all slide. Mixer
I have no interest in you or your opinions. I only answered because I believe in dangerous times people like you hang about to pour fuel into a fire. Again I've given you credence but I'll allow myself this one.

DaithiD said...

David, are you are contradicting yourself?
You said:

Once you start legitimizing the British apparatus as far as i am concerned you become no better than the very people we've been calling sellouts

I put forward a proposition, keeping it deliberately general so that analogy could be drawn in principle :

Is it legitimizing the British state in using them to legally pursue an enemy?

Then you seemingly concede that very point :

i would like to see the perpetrators of Derry/Ballymurphy in the hague if not i would like to see British courts punishing British troops for war crimes

Im not in favour of republicans pointing their finger at other republicans in court, but then I don’t consider Gerry Adams a republican. Others do, so I concede it is a grey area.

Using the British state to do the heavy lifting for a limited objective should not be dismissed out of hand for reasons of dogma, especially when the prize is of such strategic importance.

Hopefully if this topic comes up in the future, potential avenues republicans can pursue this can be explored better.

ranger1640 said...

I said in another post that the shinners/provos are a personality lead party they are indeed a cult. The cult of Adams. Who when they are living would have a mural to their dear leader, only the shinners/provos and north Korean dictators.

http://www.demotix.com/photo/4636617/martin-mcguinness-leads-rally-demanding-release-gerry-adams

tiarna said...

FPerry

"I have no interest in you or your opinions." Really? YOU asked me questions above and I answered them --sorry you don't like the answer. Forgot you talk out your ass

I am no supporter of SF but I read loads of comments from dissidents about SF'ers being touts -I was merely making fair comment on what I observe --dissidents going to the press threatening to rat out on old pals.

As for your 'mask' commentary --let me rephrase old graffiti once dubbed on the walls of Derry "I know some dissidents, thank fuck they don't know me"

Honey, when the name game starts for real there'll be no shortage of canaries on either side and all with a vendetta to OUT each other --supergrass trials will be nothing to the those queuing up to say their bit for Queen & Country, Gilroy wanted to beat the rush.

Unfortunately for many victims families it probably won't be a reliable form of truth commission.

larry hughes said...

What odds on Adams and SF publicly stating there is no threat to the McConville relatives should they give information to the RUC? It is where they have left themselves and Gerry wont shy away from self preservation I suspect. It has been the most interesting few days in yonks.

menace said...

Daithid I noticed Peter Hain earlier lamenting the arrest of Adams which he stated must now lead to the questioning of the brit. forces involved in murder of innocent people in Ireland.
I wouldn't be holding my breath but this will be the SF next platform and, with the few weeks left 'til the election could well be enough to see them take seats in places they otherwise might not have.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Tirana,
Your can colour the fact that you lack spine anyway you want but you lack it.
What really irritates you is ,these people inspite of human fallibility have more in them than you.
Goading people and then when the tables are turned its foul play and legalities.
As I said, I normally skip past you curtain twitching antics but you comment about Evelyn caught my eye.
Responding tof you is actually giving you oxygen.
So breath in because this is the last.

DaithiD said...

Menace, that is called spin and is to be expected. Sinn Fein sold meeting the Queen as part of some reset in relations on the way to a United Ireland, Adams arrest such a short time after it is a major slap in their face. If this angle had been teased out further, it could of dealt a severe blow to Sinn Fein. As it is, the Mandela moment I hoped for (him getting slung in a cell) will be spun into a different, ‘long walk to freedom’ type moment.

David Higgins said...

Daithi,
I don't see how i can be contradicting myself. If european bodies find the nerve to prosecute British war criminals. great. If the British judicial system find a conscience and prosecute their war crimes even better. What the fuck has that got to do with republicans cheering on the British state arresting an Irishman regardless of what we think of him. I fear a lot on this site quote republican ideology only when it suits them.

DaithiD said...

David , congratulations on being morally superior. Back to building the socialist alternative to oust that Irishman by more palatable methods?

David Higgins said...

Daithi,
I apologize if i sound pedantic but i honestly believe the minute we justify such actions in the short term it will finish us in the long term. And for what it is worth fuck socialism it is the curse of the working classes. Daithi i might sound confrontational here, which isn't my intention, i really respect your opinions on here but i never can nor never will advocate such measures.

larry hughes said...

Davi

in fairness I found 'republicanism' far too often wheeled out to excuse all maner of carrys on. Like an ace card, for tight corners in debate.

tiarna said...

FPerry

"What really irritates you is ,these people inspite of human fallibility have more in them than you." Maybe squealing is a "fallibility" that you admire or excuse when dissidents do it but not if Sf'ers do it. I think one is as bad as the other.

Those who contributed to the Boston Tapes did so out of ill-informed attempt at preserving a living history even if they did name names -but Gilroy, she was looking for revenge and it backfired on her.

Get your facts straight. I never "goaded" her or anyone else into going public or to become a rat.

David Higgins said...

Larry,
That might be the case, however for me on this issue it is black and white. You don't cheer the arrest made by the Brit forces in the occupied six counties. Some body said earlier on that nobody had done more for the normalization agenda than Adams and that's probably true, but if we start acquiescing with Brit apparatus we haven't got a leg to stand on.
Daithi accused me of taking the moral high ground and maybe i was being sanctimonious had a couple of jamieson in me i start to preach after a couple. On this issue we have to take the moral high ground. I know what you mean about republicanism being used to justify all sorts, but if we don't stay true to republican values then republicanism will no longer exist, i mean who are we going to leave as the bastions of republicanism? sinn fein? no, some of us have to stay true to our beliefs and the expulsion of Brit imperialism is at the heart of said beliefs, not cheering cause the Brits lifted Adams. In my opinion we can get too caught up in s.f and their antics. Today of all days should be a day when we remember what our true objectives are.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Tiarna Honey.
God only knows what you were or are now?
You goaded Alec when he asked you to remove the hood you tried to undermind Marian and now it's Evelyn's turn.
You probably squirmed all your life and now you took the chance to cover you face for no other reason than you won't step out to stand over what you say.
Rats tend to scurry in dark places where they use cover and that just about sums you up?
Invisible in more ways than one!
You would never say to anything to the people you spout about behind your mask.
Your best picking on someone who's interested plenty in your little covered up world.
Sine e

Fionnuala Perry said...

Tirana,
I was asked to post this by Evelyn Gilroy.
I went to the papers to clarify our family position, that it was my sister who went to the aid of the soldier not Jean Mc Conville.
I was also upset that so many people who were quite young at the time were being arrested and not the those in senior positions.
Anyone who has anything to say or needs clarity can come to my home and feel free to discuss it with me. It's called ' putting up'
If you can't do that Tiarna I would appreciate you just 'shut up'.

DaithiD said...

David, that’s fine I am more interested in counterviews, and usually wont post just to agree what has been written. You mentioned engaging with the British courts was legitimising them, I have tried to point out how republicans already do this. This is all a moot point now anyway. Adams had blanket new coverage to look statesmen like, Sinn Fein has come out of it stronger than before. They were tottering though, it’s not often events align like that.

tiarna said...

PFerry

I remember you don't per-say ask for identity of posters you do it vicariously through Alec's demand to know all. Though you do do a lot of playing the man and not the ball -snipe away to your hearts content. I did note that recently Dominic McGlinchy cautiously gave an interview where his safety could be at stake for being critical of dissidents I am also aware that the overwhelming majority of those targeted/killed by dissidents have been Catholics. As recent events have revealed Dissidents have shown a readiness to squeal out of school on old pals. Those are all reasons why no Catholic, fellow republican or Nationalist is safe from their extremism nor should they trust them.



Re EG

"I went to the papers to clarify our family position, that it was my sister who went to the aid of the soldier not Jean Mc Conville."

That is an interesting piece of information after all these years. But it has no bearing on who EG claims was involved in the murder and disappearance.


"I was also upset that so many people who were quite young at the time were being arrested and not the those in senior positions."

It is an emotive issue which understandably might upset many but EG's claim was specific, namely, that she, as a former associate of Adams, had personal evidence that Adams was involved and that she was going to 'spill the beans' so to speak. The PSNI took her up on that but I think she has since reconsidered what EG calls 'putting up' but in reality its called turning states witness (against Adams in this case). Nor do I understand how EG believes that accusing one person of involvement will mean that other suspect/s might be left alone? Things don't work like that even if the Police make promises.


I appreciate EG or FP would like that I "just 'shut up'" EG should have heeded that advice herself before making public announcement that she had evidence on Adams and she was going to expose him.

As I have stated Dissidents are a bigger threat to the lives of nationalists than loyalists or brits currently are. Dissidents are also the biggest mouthpieces about who the 'touts' are but when called, they can't handle the truth about themselves. FPerry, I recall Alec's attribute of the FRU as 'the cream of the cream of elite forces' - I can readily respond but Alec of course is not here to defend himself so your repeated referrals to Alec is an underhand use of his absence.


FPerry

I appreciate that EG did not post here herself and that you do it for her --EG's point is made and I understand that, but it exposes your own hypocrisy that the issue or subject matter is what matters not the identity of the poster -but then playing the man not ball is your only response to cogent argument in that case what else can you do.



AM said...

Tiarna,

I think you have read this wrongly. In all of this I can find nothing at all where Evelyn states she would ever assist the PSNI. You might well think her approach is wrong. You might even think that a project like the BC one was hopelessly ill jufged and you have the right to hold a different view without anyone jumping down your throat for it. But I fail to see how the case can be made that Evelyn ever suggested she would speak to the cops about it. Her refusal to talk to them and her refusal to call on anybody else to talk to them would seem to run counter to how you have read it.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Playing the man not the ball were you not accused of doing this several times recently by other posters?
If you can stand over your coherent argument you now have the offer of standing over it to the person you directed it at?

Mackers,
I think when a view that someone is going to turn states evidence is aired without any credence it may prompt an angry response.

I could not care less about this persons views but that one was particularly dangerous in the current climate.
Then to retort in a form of defence that the person is a 'rat' is it any wonder he wears a mask?

After all this person Tiarna wasn't too slow in producing warnings when the going gets tough which was one of the main reasons I ignore his postings.

AM said...

Nuala,

my point is that Tiarna has a right to disagree with the BC project, or disagree with Evelyn's approach. You probably accept that yourslf. Your response is not based on that but on what Tiarna suggests re Evelyn's intentions. Like yourself I think Tiarna stretched the point much too far.

tiarna said...

AM

EG is explicit about why she went public and she states that she wanted to see Adams "arrested" .. "for what he did" so what exactly does she say he did to Jean McConville? Adams has denied all involvement, I do not know who was involved, but whether one likes Adams or not he does not deserve unfounded allegation and innuendo from people claiming to have known him in 1972 and are not prepared to stand over their allegations.

The following is what I copied from what she is reported to have said and she has not denied making these comments:

""It defies belief that he hasn't been arrested. The police should stop chasing those who were never in a position in the republican movement to order Jean McConville's execution and instead arrest the only person who was in that position – Gerry Adams.

"He has got away with so much over the years. He now seems to be getting away with this as well. It will be a disgrace if ordinary people end up carrying the can for what he did.""

larry hughes said...

Tiarna

I'm really confused with SF policy (is there any) over the years now. Are they in full support of people going to the PSNI with information and if so do they support the McConvilles if they wish to do so?

simples....It seems Gerry Kelly of SF was asked the question 3 times on BBC Radio 4 today and refused to answer 3 times. Put up or shut up ffs our heads are getting wrecked lol

wolfe tone said...

Whether anyone likes it or not, in the eyes of the free state establishment,the british establishment and more importantly the general public, sinn fein are viewed as the face of irish republicanism. We can all argue that they arnt republican etc but in reality the general public dont view it like that.
The way i see it the british want to absolutely demonise and thus finish off republicanism forever that is why we are continuously being bombarded by 'victims' of IRA violence etc. The adams arrest wouldnt neccessarily be an attempt to convict him but, and again this may be hard to accept, he is viewed as the face of 'republicanism' and thus his arrest could be another attempt to convict republicanism.
I said before that republicans should ignore sinn fein and leave this nationalist party to pursue whatever it wants to pursue. Republicans should rise above this and practise republicanism. If they do this there is no doubt that this would have a bigger impact on the general public than calling each other names. In fact it would put the brakes on those nationalist parties that masquerade as republicans, from further watering down the ideals of republicanism.
There are large amounts of people who are disgusted with adams,mcguinness etc but that doesnt mean they are supporters of the 'dissidents'. In fact the dissidents are a turn off for these people and that plays into the hands of the nationalists groups.
A sinn fein cllr in my town was asked one time 'where are all the ex pow's;why do they not vote? this cllr replied, 'we dont care if they dont vote us,just as long as they dont vote for anyone else'. Thats the thinking these people have. Unless republicans get smart then these nationalist groups will continue to thrive and dictate their own agenda. Gloating at the misfortunes of former comrades is not going to win over the middle ground.

AM said...

Tiarna,

when I saw that interview - it is reproduced elsewhere on this blog, I read her as pointing to the logic of situation which is that it would seem logical for the cops to arrest Adams rather than chasing low level figures. But even if I read it wrong there was still nothing there where she said she would assist in any arrest process against him. When they asked her to make a statement she was being consistent rather than pulling back. I see absolutely nothing in her comments which would justify a claim that she intended giving evidence or was calling for anyone else to give evidence.

My own view is that he should not have been arrested nor should anyone else.

tiarna said...

AM

If she has information taht she wanted to part with then she should have given it to Police because seeking to have someone convicted by media is equally wrong. But to close this issue off I will accept that her intention was not to go to the Police, Or, in fact, had she any information to disclose in the first place.

AM said...

Tiarna,

That is probably about as much as needs to be said on it.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mackers,
I would never dispute anyone's right to agree or disagree what bothered me about the post was such a dangerous supposition.
There were points he made that I actually did agree with but scaremongering when someone else is in the line of fire tends to put a person off.
On that note I have nothing else to say in relation to this.

tiarna said...

Larry

I have no clue as to SF policy and what you say about reporting to PSNI is a hook they have put themselves on. I think Unionists have made fair comment on SF wobbliness without Adams presence.

menace said...

Is there anyone else thinks the only one's laughing at the disagreement expressed on this topic are the MI5 types who keep an eye on it?
There is a sort of 'comeuppance' in some ways for GA but slagging each other about it does FA to resolve the real issue, the achievement of the Republic pronounced in 1916 which I suspect we're all still committed to regardless of what the former leaders say, whether or not they were in the Army1

Fionnuala Perry said...

Menace,
If that's the only laugh they have at me I'll not loose any sleep and neither should you!

Fionnuala Perry said...

Apologies for the loose instead of lose and of course answering when I said I wouldn't.
That's code m15 by the way just corrections!

sean laig said...

from what I read of EG's statements I could see only positive contributions been made. She seemed to be doing or saying two specific things that needed to be done or said. Firstly that the peelers were harassing non favored people in Belfast with abandon. Fair play to her, that;s how the British "security' system works and that sort of thing needs to be exposed more urgently especially in the light of drooling by elected representatives. Secondly, she gave a creditable account of the wounded soldier/Mary Magdalene story that has gone unanswered all over the world and which has set the tone of vilifying not just those involved in 1972 but also the whole republican community. It's a pity their wasn't more like her to set the record straight. - If history is being paint brushed, which it is, with victim blaming propaganda going unchallenged, then where is the obligation. - Unfortunately, slandering truth tellers seems to be one more ugly cog in the SF machine. Adams and his supporters should be glad that he was arrested, if for no other reason than to highlight British hypocrisy instead of quibbling and pointing the figure at the wrong people. This is behavior unbecoming of a living saint, even one of Alex Reid's, and of any genuine republican, and of any patriotic representative unless your motto is, what can your country do for you. Tiarna wise up.

tiarna said...

Sean Laig

"Unfortunately, slandering truth tellers seems to be one more ugly cog in the SF machine. ... Tiarna wise up."

Your comment above directed at me needs to be put straight. Firstly, I have no connection or association with SF, not even as a voter.

EG claimed to have information on Adams and she was calling on the PSNI to arrest him "for what he did"; the woman was explicit. The PSNI read the article and quite understandably thought that EG was offering to come forward and give evidence on her personal knowledge about the deeds/actions of Adams. WE ALL NOW KNOW THAT SHE HAD NO SUCH EVIDENCE NOR WAS SHE INTENDING TO GIVE STATES EVIDENCE AGAINST ADAMS; OR, SHE RECONSIDERED EXPOSING ADAMS AS SHE INITIALLY SEEMED INTENT TO DO: TAKE YOUR PICK!





sean laig said...

Tiarna,
whatever EG's experiences and intentions only she knows. Now the heat is off there, Gerry Adams can and has proclaimed himself to be the foremost protagonist for the McConville family's rights to the informed and uninformed. Wasn't it lucky that it was Adams under scrutiny and not EG. Otherwise how would the McConville's be so represented, and their peace and our peace left in tact.