John McDonagh (JM) and Sandy Boyer (SB) interview via telephone from Ireland Anthony McIntyre (AM), the lead researcher for The Belfast Project, about the Boston College tapes.
Radio Free Éireann
WBAI 99.5FM Pacifica Radio
New York City
5 April 2014
(Begins time stamp 42:50)
SB: We're going over to Ireland to speak to Anthony McIntyre, who was the lead researcher on what was called The Belfast Project, the oral history of The Troubles. And as you've been hearing certainly in the last few weeks on Radio Free Éireann Ivor Bell, the former Chief-of-Staff of the IRA, was charged with aiding and abetting the murder of Jean McConville, allegedly – and I stress allegedly – on the basis of an interview done by Anthony McIntyre. Anthony, thanks very much for being with us.
AM: Thank you for having me on, Sandy.
SB: Now since the arrest of Ivor Bell Sinn Féin has been opening up on you and Ed Moloney, the Director of the Belfast Project, and the whole Belfast Project with both barrels. I mean, for example, the former Sinn Féin Mayor of Derry called The Belfast Project a “touting” or informing project: which is really the most serious charge that can made against an Irish Republican. What's your reaction to that?
AM: Well, I am pretty indifferent to anything the former Mayor of Derry said in that respect. As usual, it's an attempt to smear. It's an attempt to smear the people who gave so willingly of their time to, in many ways which has proven thus far, to correct the narrative which the former Mayor of Derry serves into or feeds into, supports, reinforces and does not want exploded. And basically that the Republican struggle in the North and the sort of equality issues that he claims they stand over now despite the fact that there's very little equality. In the very city that he comes from not one British soldier has been arrested for the massacre on Bloody Sunday despite the British police, the PSNI, knowing the identities of every British soldier, every member of the police that have killed civilians while those forces were on duty. So when he talks about equality or things like that, parity of esteem, all a nonsense. And I regard his statement as a nonsense in relation to a “touting programme” - he just seeks to smear. And he himself has been calling for people to go forward to the police with information about Republicans.
So It seems to me it's George Orwell here ... Animal Farm ... four legs good ... two legs bad. If you support his party then you're okay. If you don't support his party you're not okay. A Republican dissenting from his party - it's okay to go to the police about. A Republican that goes to the police about anybody in his party or speaks about his party or talks to a university project about his party is labeled an informer.
SB: But Anthony, as you well know, calling someone a “tout” (or an informer) is the most serious thing you can charge a Republican with. Does that put your personal safety in any danger that you're being called a tout? ...
SB: I think we may have lost the connection.
JM: What to do is try to get Anthony back on in the last few minutes because we have about another hopefully ten minutes or five minutes with Anthony McIntyre and as Sandy's been saying charging Anthony with that when he was doing an academic process of interviewing Republicans and getting what they did during the thirty years of struggle.
And we hope to get to that - the Police Service of Northern Ireland, who marched here on Fifth Avenue, want to interview Anthony McIntyre. And Anthony has stated in the papers that he will not give out any information about who he interviewed and that he would go back to gaol - having already done eighteen years in gaol.
SB: And not to be outdone Gerry Adams has called the whole Belfast Project lies, distortion, slander, a personal attack. (He) said The Belfast Project is not a genuine oral history project. And of course, Gerry Adams would know better than anybody else because it has been stated by Brendan Hughes that he was the one who gave the order for Jean McConville to be killed and her body “disappeared”. So yes, Gerry Adams would know all about “genuine” oral history.
And I think we finally do have Anthony back.
JM: Yeah, I just, Anthony, I just, we're talking about what's happening to you. Will you be crossing the border? I know the PSNI, the people who marched here on Fifth Avenue, want to question you. And you stated in the paper that you will not be answering any questions ... that you will go to gaol rather than speak about who you interviewed. So where does it stand now? Can you go back home to Belfast?
AM: Well I ... home is now in the twenty-six counties rather than in Belfast. Home is in Drogheda Co. Louth so … I believe, (coughs) sorry. I have been advised that it would be imprudent for me to go to Belfast on the basis that it is likely that the PSNI will arrest me as a means to try and get me to give evidence or to confirm for them the identities of the interviewees. Or to say that the interviews were carried out properly or that they were honest accounts and that there were no inducements or whatever. And I will refuse to cooperate in any way with the British police in relation to the sources.
SB: As I said, being called a tout is the worst thing you can call a Republican.
AM: Well it is but then it's who we are being been called touts by. We were called touts by people like Kevin Campbell. Does anybody really care what Kevin Campbell says in relation to these things?
SB: Anthony, would that put your personal safety at risk?
AM: Well, I have no evidence that it does. I suspect that it is designed to do just that. I suspect that it is designed to make people like myself and the people who are believed to have been interviewed - because Danny Morrison has been claiming - though you can't believe a word that comes out of Danny Morrison’s mouth - but Danny Morrison nonetheless has been claiming that he knows most of the twenty-six interviewees. He's telling lies.
But the point is he might spreads rumours about people so that those who are suspected of having engaged in the Boston College project will be viewed in a very negative light in the Nationalist community and in areas like West Belfast and Derry. so they could be smeared – perhaps attacked. They're upping the ante against them.
They are, Sinn Féin are trying to intimidate and to create a hostile environment in which some people may take the view: ah, we're getting the message from our leaders that we must rid ourselves of troublesome priests.
JM: And Anthony, you are being attacked on this side of The Atlantic by Niall O'Dowd in The Irish Voice and Irish Central. What type of support are you getting say from your Union and other Irish Republicans?
AM: Well, Irish Republicans have been, even they some of them disagree with this type of project out of, out of a fidelity to a Republican tradition that they believe would sort of militate against becoming involved in saying anything - there's an old saying in Ireland about it's best to say nothing really - whatever you say say nothing - but they have been supportive. They have been expressing solidarity. Niall O'Dowd is simply a kite-flyer, a propagandist on behalf of Sinn Féin and will unthinkingly repeat the line of Sinn Féin. But even in Niall O'Dowd's position – I mean - Niall O'Dowd simply does not believe Gerry Adams' claims never to have been a member of the IRA.
The Union have been fairly, fairly supportive. We would like to see the Union do more. It is protection of sources, an issue that we're involved in and we would like them to be much more aggressive, much more assertive. But the Union have given support.
There have been attempts from within the Union, as you know, to have, to sabotage Union backing for myself and Ed Moloney but that's just come to naught. The Union have sort of swept those attempts to cause problems for our campaign to the side.
SB: Anthony, what accounts for the extraordinary vehemence with which Sinn Féin, Gerry Adams, Niall O'Dowd have been going after you and the entire project?
AM: Well, it does not, I,… people like me who have been in the eye of the storm in many ways in relation to expressing an opinion that Sinn Féin do not approve of, who have been blowing the whistle on where Sinn Féin have been taking the Republican project for over, about twenty years, more than fifteen years anyway ... between fifteen and twenty years we've been voicing a difference of opinion. And we have, they have gone after us with a gusto. They have picketed our homes at times.
They have threatened myself and my pregnant wife. The IRA leadership were, actually visited my home - two senior figures on the GHQ staff. So they have tried all this and I am very resilient in terms of facing them down.I am simply not going to concern myself too greatly with what Adams, Morrison, O'Dowd - any of them do. I'm going to hold onto the narrative and the political perspective that I have articulated. And I'm going to challenge them. And I'm not going to be silenced by them.
They refused to debate the issue with me on radio and they sent Morrison on ... I mean a most dubious character - Dodgy Danny. (Ed. Note: former Sinn Féin publicity director Danny Morrison.)
They sent Dodgy Danny on to, without me in the studio, he came on to tell more lies about the project and during the course of it tell lies about the 1981 hunger strike. Which we showed and demonstrated a few days later by showing a video where it was shown, demonstrated very clearly: Brendan Duddy, The Mountain Climber, had said he sent Morrison into the hospital with an offer from the British to end the 1981 hunger strike - which Morrison had always denied.
So this is the sort of people that we're dealing with. And while I appreciate the concern of many people in relation to this I'm not going to be silenced by them And I'm not going to lose a great deal of sleep over their threats or their intimidation.
But Ed Moloney has always advised me that these people are very, very treacherous and very, very dangerous and he knows them very well. He knows quite well what they're capable of. So we cannot dismiss that sort of advice: that they are dangerous. But even while they are dangerous we still will not give into them.
SB: Anthony, thank you very much for being with us. Anybody who knows you at all knows you will not be silenced and we look forward to having you on again.
AM: Thank you very much, Sandy. Thank you, John. Thank you to everybody at Radio Free Éireann. (ends time stamp 54:48)
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You may be surprised at the level of support that you actually have Anthony a cara,and the bullyboys of quisling $inn £eind are circling the wagons around their president for life, they know that the beleaguered lying toerag is politically bankrupt but he stills holds the keys to the Northern bank money and a direct line to Downing st.in other words he is still useful,when he tips the scales to a liability which isnt that far away he then will know how his friend Thatcher felt when the knives came out, the thugs who follow him are indeed dangerous but even they are now probably to busy looking over their shoulders to want to engage in anything that will see them sent down ,Bobby Tohill debacle was a clear message to even the dumbest that the party will not back those caught doing the dirty work.the quisling $inn £eind bubble may be expanding in some sense, but then we all know what happens to bubbles eventually.as we used to say Tiocfaidh ar lá pass the pin.
ReplyDeleteOpening up with both barrels? The weapon must have been tampered with by the spooks to fire blanks, I hear a lot of noise from them, but not much damage.
ReplyDeleteListened in to the interview Anthony; your assertive, rather than aggressive or whining, responses came across convincingly.
ReplyDeleteGood media management, well done.
AM,
ReplyDeleteYour support is much, much greater than you can imagine...even from those who I have talked too and completely berate you for being so naive about the the Brits getting their hands on the project...that aside, they still support you....as for Campbell calling you and others touts.....now that really is having a brass neck...wait until we hear how they excuse McGuinness' visit to Windsor...this is gong it to be good!!!!!!
Nial
ReplyDeletebreaking news
Martin McGuinness to be served the corpse of a hunger striker at the Windsor banquet. A Palace Official says he has been eating off dead hunger strikers since 1981 and they are afraid to change his diet at this late stage.
Irish President Mickey 'D' says he's bringing his 'soap box' coz at 4ft 10' tall it's the only way he's going to 'get up' to give her Maj a rite Royal roggering!!
Larry, this dinner suggestion together with your St. Patrick's vision for a float of ‘blow jobbing leprechauns’ is very unique. If you aren't in that field already, I think you should look at a career in event organising !
ReplyDeleteAnthony,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Niall people I have spoke with about the project don’t have a problem with it.
Some got a laugh at Bangers swinging his axe announcing he knows all the interviewees trying to sound informed and giving himself great importance making a call to the college wanting the tapes.
He should stick to fiction along with the others crying “tout” menacing language against republicans coming from the reformed party who are fond to remind us that our society has no room for militant language.
At day’s end the SF spin is believable by their followers and reasonable people
end up laughing at them the BC website has proven its worth as it held nothing back and kept people comprehensively informed.
SF on the other hand have a preference to hide and distort issues and their best argument against the project is “tout” they have past the point of no return and are content being hypocrites and even happier defending British rule.
DaithiD
ReplyDeleteEven organiser? perish the thought.
Mickey D is my hero, he can do us all proud at any event. Genuinely think he's great. Can't see the need for SF at this stage. Other than trashing all those who willingly gave their lives like lemmings jumping at the British Empire to do nothing more than assert a principled political point. SF are trashing every last one of them just to be at the banquet table. Mickey 'D' FOR PRESIDENT!! oh, that's right he already is. AND HE WONT SHAME ANY OF US.
From Helen McClafferty
ReplyDeleteI find it absolutely disgraceful that men of the caliber of Mr. Anthony McIntyre, who spent 18 years in the Kesh, 4 years on the blanket during the dirty protests and had to endure the emotional torture of knowing his comrades, on hunger strike, were dying, one by one, for the cause of Irishfreedom, is now subjected to these life threatening allegations and dangerous character assassination because of his undertaking of a very worthwhileacademic project with Boston College to archive the history of the “troubles”.
To quote Mr. Jack Dunn, Director of PublicAffairs for Boston College:
In fairness to Mr. Moloney and Mr.McIntyre and to all of us, I don’t think anyone anticipated that law enforcement within the U.K.would seek a subpoena requesting these materials. Our intentions — all of our intention — was to provide a source of information on a periodof great contention in Northern Ireland in which 3,000 people were killed so that historians, scholars, journalists in the future would have a resource totry to sort out the issues behind The Troubles. I think unfortunate
circumstances occurred that brought this into the public light in a way thatpeople didn’t anticipate and now all of us have to deal with it.
Based on the above statement by Mr. Dunn, helps to reinforcethat the scathing and personal attacks on the project and, again, I emphasize dangerous attacks on its researchers, by Adams & Company, is deliberate and absolutely shameful which puts Mr McIntyre, his American wife and their children in danger.
It would appear, by Sinn Fein’s statements to the press, theyhave now resorted to the exact same tactics against this project and its researchers that was used against them by the British government to vilify them in the British and Irish tabloids prior to the Good Friday Agreement. It is also quite evident, from reading various media reports on this issue, that some of the British, Irish and even Irish-American (O’Dowd) tabloids are using sensationalism instead of professional journalism by jumping on the bandwagon in not covering this issue thoroughly with the facts.
big bob of the royal ulster provos will get you a spread in the scumday world!
ReplyDeleteyou'll be famous.
ps: will the call for a truth commission be altered to a tout convention? given HMSF's assertions....
on a personal level what sickens me is i supported a complete shower of sociopaths, bullies, slanderers and doublespeaking pathological liars for years. anthony, weather this, you will have ur day, these people are appalling pieces of work. they are dangerous too as they are desperate but i have no doubt you will prevail. i said it before here - the stickies were never as bad as psf. im wearing a black and white lily this easter so no-one will think im part of the rafia. scumbags. i fuc*ing cant stand them anymore.
ReplyDeletegrouch
ReplyDeletethe filth are selling Easter lilies. I'd feel more dignified and morally correct wearing a poppy than one of their 'black-spots'.
Blind Pew must be spinning in his fictional grave! At least his is fiction.