Saturday, April 12, 2014

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Ex-IRA men Slam Banquet Appearances by McGuinness

Gemma Murray with a piece on Martin McGuinness banqueting with British royalty. It earlier featured in the Newsletter on 10 April 2014. 

Former IRA men yesterday slammed the image of the “chief of staff of the IRA at the time Lord Mountbatten was killed” appearing at a state banquet at Windsor Castle.
Anthony McIntyre, a former blanketman and life prisoner, drew attention to what he called:

the contrast between men dying on hunger strike, and wearing a blanket and him [Martin McGuinness] suited and booted filling themselves with stuffed quail – the abandonment of everything.

He said: 'I looked at that last night like it was Orwell’s Animal Farm; from pig to man, and man to pig, and you couldn’t tell the difference.'

However, he added: 'I think anyone who was disgusted at last night, was disgusted before now. There is nothing really surprising in this.'

Mr McIntyre, who served 18 years in prison and was the lead researcher in the Boston project, claimed:

Martin McGuinness was chief-of-staff of the IRA when Lord Muntbatten was killed. And there is Michael D Higgins honouring a silent tribute to Lord Mountbatten. McGuinness isn’t going out there as a victorious general, he is going out as a compromised former chief of staff of a defeated army.

Fellow former IRA man Gerard Hodgins said watching Martin McGuinness attend the Queen’s banquet 'was a bit much to swallow, especially at a time when the British state is pursuing geriatric republican and loyalist foot-soldiers of the conflict.'

The former senior paramilitary figure added that:

McGuinness masquerading as an IRA commander doesn’t impress many former soldiers of the IRA who firmly believe Martin was working for the Queen many, many years before his dinner invite.'

He said that:

normalisation of relationships between Ireland and England is essential and the state visit of President Higgins will assist in this. Britain is our closest neighbour, we have a plethora of social, economic and cultural connections, built up over many years which cannot be ignored or wished away ... Problems remain around the inequities and legacy of partition but I think we are mature enough to work through these on a political level between ourselves.”

Meanwhile former INLA member Tony O’Hara, whose brother Patsy – also a member of the organisation – died on hunger strike on May 21, 1981, said he was:

disgusted at the meeting, but there is a reason for it. There will be something behind the visit and what went on. There is always a deeper reason. @ablogginghack


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Mac Tíre said...

Of course these "anti Sinn Fein" republicans are aggrevated by Martin McGuinness meeting with the queen of England. They are in good company alongside lord Tebbit, Mike Nesbitt and MI5 (see the black propaganda gun running documentary put out to coincide with the meeting, even though these allegations have been in the public domain for more than a decade)

Sinn Fein's enemies are aggrieved by the meeting because they know how advantageous the meeting will prove in elections both north and south. My prediction is that Sinn Fein will be the largest party in the dail and the assembly next time round as a direct result of meeting the english queen.

The Shinners are master strategists and their ingenuity, guile and determination are the reason why they are at the cutting edge of the struggle for irish freedom.

It's on its way folks, so naysayers beware.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mic Tire
Republicanim and monarchism are two incompatible ideologies so how can you claim such a u turn on principle as a victory.

Few Irish Republicans raised an eyebrow when Martin was raising his glass because they knew the treachery was well underway before he he bowed the knee.

Republicans don't care about the Sinn Fein strategy.
They sold every Republican principle to get ahead.

Sellout and compromise always attracts benefactors though, not amongst the principled but amongst those who would choke on the word or sold their principles for a place at the banquet.

Cutting edge struggle. I think it's normal day logic you struggle with Mac Tire.

Fionnuala Perry said...

There's a sort of similarity between this and the Macbeth Banquet when Banquo his murdered former comrade appears.
Mc Guinness must have been setting in a freezing room if all he betrayed appeared.

larry hughes said...

It's on its way folks...

SF Biggest party in the Dail? FF will bounce back rather than that happen.

A return to Commonwealth and entry to NATO on its way are more realistc. Some canon fodder then for USA/UK war criminals.

Oh aye its on its way ok ... 2016 that is!! Remember that one?

sean smith said...

Dont believe your right but i hope you are i dont care what movement brings about unity as long as we get it.they destroyed the best peoples army in the world so they could be accepted into mainstream politics.If they do take power i hope they take action over the terrible conditions republican prisoners are being forced to endure.

DaithiD said...

Is the rallying cry at this cutting edge of freedom going to be
”victory to the Banquet Men!” ?

David Higgins said...

Mac Tire
"anti sinn fein republicans" are aggrieved because sinn fein are anti-republican. So on your assessment this treachery is justified because possibly it could lead to sinn fein being the largest party in the dail and assembly. What if they were? what would it lead to ? articles two and three have been amended to pander to loyalism so what could they achieve? More money perhaps?
Are you any relation to Micheal Henry? The shinners are master strategists! been laughing at that line for the last twenty minutes.

sean bres said...

Quisling Sinn Fein badly underestimated how this would be received, most people I've spoken to are beyond disgusted, they just shake their head as if to say 'what else do you expect, it's all about the money now'. Yet they cling to the notion that all this sycophantic ball-washing will help achieve Irish reunification. The reality is their behaviour and strategy is delaying Irish unity, the extent they have proven willing to cooperate with Britain's normalisation agenda can only help the masterplan of the Brits to legitimise their illegal involvement here. They are actively copper-fastening partition in return for a slice of the cake - or more accurately the crumbs from Britain's table. The IRA's Volunteers are surely turning in their graves yet they are out lifting an Easter collection to fund their election campaign on the back of their good name and sacrifice.

The 1998 Agreement was sold to republicans as some form of transitional arrangement and many gave the leadership the benefit of the doubt, despite their unease, on that basis. I was one of them. The logic at the time was 'we gave the armed struggle 25 years, we have to be prepared to give a political approach a fair shake. No-one can say we haven't done that. The Sinn Fein leadership was given every opportunity to prosecute a political struggle to tear down partition but instead they elected to prop it up for short-term gain, leading to what we witness now today - full integration into Britain's partitionist arrangements for Ireland and the attempts to legitimise them and bed them down.

The position of the party supersedes everything else, even principle, as can be seen from yer man's comment. The truth of it is Sinn Fein don't have any principles and with more and more realising it is so more and more are looking for an alternative way forward. People didn't sign up for this type of thing, for legitimising the RUC, Stormont rule, Diplock Courts, brutalisation of prisoners but most of all for legitimising the British presence. We were told the struggle would go on through political means which was pure and utter lies. Sinn Fein abandoned the struggle long ago but were clever enough to string everyone along, selling out bit-by-bit while maintaining the illusion it would all come good at the finish. They've achieved nothing only setting back Irish reunification for the foreseeable future until such times as republicanism can successfully reorganise. A daunting task at present but one that will be achieved

Max Headroom said...

a traitor who collaborates with an enemy force occupying their country.
"he had the Quisling owner of the factory arrested"
synonyms: collaborator, fraternizer, colluder, sympathizer; traitor, turncoat, betrayer, informer, back-stabber, double-crosser, double-dealer, renegade, defector, deserter, apostate, Judas, snake in the grass, fifth columnist; informaltwo-timer; informaldog

If you're here to justify the unjustifiable forget it and take a hike, no one here appreciates being fed undigestible bullshite from Sinn £ein.

grouch said...

u are on drugs.

Dixie said...

Mac Tíre if Tebbit had stuck out his hand McGuinness would have shook it off his shoulders.

As for MI5 who do you think is pushing McGuinness towards making even the most repugnant aspect of British Imperialism acceptable to Nationalists you silly shinner?

Winning elections North or South is meaningless, you only have to look at West Belfast with an Adamsite MP and 5 MLAs yet it remains 3rd in the league of unemployment across the whole UK.

They are doing well in the South because of peoples anger, once they get into a coalition government they will go the way of other small coalition partners, down.

Shinners are so deluded they can't see that McGuinness was the safest Republican in the North throughout the years of the struggle. FFS not even Garret Fitzgerald could get a reason why the Brits didn't use Raymond Gilmour to arrest and imprison him.

IRISH REBEL1916 said...

Look at Tony O'Hara's comment, it wasn't hostile at all, sadly. McGuinness is a simple traitor..... And has been for years and years.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Maybe he should pass them round the rest of us.

Joe Denver said...

Principles or tactics, freedom fighters or murderers. Either way, a lot of people died for a number of dubious causes. These people who thought they had the authority to decide who would live and die should go to jail if they haven't already done so. Adams, McGuinness, Downey, Daly, those responsible for murder on Bloody Sunday, everyone. All of these people are contemptible, deluded murderers and their day will come

grouch said...

are u anythin to john denver

Mac Tíre said...

Hello naysayers!

Fionnuala - The queen of England is a bastard, lets not make pretend that the Shinners like her any more than you, Larry or Sean. It is a strategic move. Like it or not that is what it is. I also notice that you use the word "compromise" like it is a dirty word? The onus is on everyone in the north to compromise, considering the fundamentally conflicting ideals that both sections of our society have!

Larry - We'll have to wait and see on the Dail elections. Sure save my comment and you can cast up if I'm wrong and still knocking about this site. Regarding the 2016 predictions, well you can't fault a bit of ambition.

Sean Smith - Your comment is refreshing. I say this because I genuinely believe that if there was a choice between Sinn Fein delivering a United Ireland or the place remaining under English rule there are people who frequent this site who would choose the latter simply because of their personal hatred for Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams. I also don't care who delivers Irish unity as long as we get it, however I have chosen to put my eggs in the Sinn Fein basket because I don't believe that it can be delivered through physical force or blogging.

DaithD - lol witty!

David Higgins - If you can't see the benefits that Sinn Fein taking power north and south would offer then I am unwilling to explain. I'm no relation to Michael Henry, but I miss that guy! Back when I was coming on to this site every so often for a wee read, before I decided to join the debate, he always gave me a chuckle. And on that note I see I have been given quite the warm reception from all the regulars! Thanks folks!

Sean Bres - armed resistance won't deliver unity. It served its purpose in getting Sinn Fein into an electoral position where they could politically campaign for unity. Look at the current Scottish model and the yes campaign that is ongoing. Why is it so hard to believe that we could follow a similar strategy? Do you believe that defeating the British army militarily is a task easier than lobbying for a vote on the independence issue and campaigning to get it over the line? The Scots may or may not get it first time around, but they can keep chipping away until they eventually do, and so can we. I know the Scots have not been through the same hardships that the Irish have but I think that is where the main point of contention lies with dissenting republicans. It is not that they believe that Sinn Fein can't deliver but rather that the compromises that Sinn Fein are willing to make in order to deliver a united Ireland is a pill too tough to swallow. In my opinion if you are willing to die for and take life to free Ireland then you should be willing to shake hands with that fucker, no matter how painful it might be.

Max Headroom - I am not here to justify anything. "For those who understand no explanations is necessary, for those who don't understand no explanation is possible." I won't be taking a hike though, I think I'm going to stick around for a while.

Grouch - no

Mac Tíre said...

Hello Dixie, I thought somebody was missing! Of course if Tebbit had have stuck out his hand McGuinness would have taken it off his shoulders. By your own admission he would gladly shake the hand of a man who clearly wants him dead! My question to you is would he shake this mans hand because, a)he loves Tebbit so much and wants to be friends now that the war is over? b) it is a strategic move aimed at building Sinn Fein's support base or c)[insert you own witty anti-Sinn Fein comment here]

36th Ulster Division said...

I had a long talk with a Unionist politician at the time of the GFA.

He was astute to realize that Unionism needed only to let the shinners become part of the establishment, and wait on the old guard leadership to ether leave or die for the shinners to go into political meltdown.

It looks like phase one is working well, and phase two will start in a couple of years time when Adams is ether ousted or leaves due to stagnation.

larry hughes said...

Mac Tire

glad you are sticking around.
Agree about McIvor/MH a good giggle....2 things though.

1. might you identify yourself
2. would you 'compromise' to a united Ireland back in the Union?

(near there already but still partitioned)

larry hughes said...

36th ulster diversion

you are bang on.

36th Ulster Division said...

The shinners don't do criticism. Here is a piece from Squinter from 2008, that surprisingly was posted in the Andytown news.

However it did not stay there long and Squinter had to make a graveling apology, at the behest of Adams himself. If that is not narcissistic personality disorder (NPD, i don't know what is.

grouch said...

greetings comrade perry. i gave them up. sick of giving my money to martins new chums. mi5 and royalty biggest dealers on the planet. and other reasons too. miss the odd joint though. mac tire sounds like a psf version of eoghan harris:

"My prediction is that Sinn Fein will be the largest party in the dail and the assembly next time round as a direct result of meeting the english queen.

The Shinners are master strategists and their ingenuity, guile and determination are the reason why they are at the cutting edge of the struggle for irish freedom."

shut ur hole.

o bradaigh was right. everything is a tactic with the adams/mcguinness faction. they are total language bending unprincipled bullshit artists. they were never genuine. never ever. morison is another pathological lying prick. and b keenan was another colosal bullshit artist too. i hate the whole fuc*ing lot of them now, what utter cynical control freaks took over the movement. im still proud as punch though of young london irish johnny lydon sailing down the thames all them years ago calling it like it was/is - god save the queen, this my fave verse

Oh, God save history
God save your mad parade
Oh Lord God, have mercy
All crimes are paid

put it on up loud and have a good bop comrade perry and god save johnny lydon wherever he is the mad bastard, hes the greatest london irish son ever. and fuk u mcguinness u bag of puke. those bastards starved over 4 million in gaelic holocaust 1845-50 and u there stuffing ur face, i bet u didnt bring that up. ten of ur generation starved themselves to death for this. i dont think so.

grouch said...

well fucking take some.

Mac Tíre said...

Larry I won't be identifying myself at this point. While I would be more than happy to stand over anything I have written so far we all saw how the Michael Henry debacle unfolded. He wrote some nonsense and then a debate started over whether or not he was actually Sinn Fein councillor McIvor. This was then, I feel, being fashioned into a stick to beat Sinn Fein with. Now while I don't envisage myself saying anything daft I'd rather enjoy my anonymity at this point. Also my identity is largely inconsequential as I am not a significant player and you won't know me. That is not to say I wouldn't be open to the idea of identifying myself in the future.

And no I wouldn't agree to a united Ireland in the union.

36th Ulster Division said...

If I may, I would like to point to what is blindingly obvious in the republican electorate. They believe everything the shinners say.

I know we on the Unionist side are always falling out with our politicos, but on the face of it that is healthy, and when push comes to shove we fall in behind the Unionist leaders.

However when it comes to the shinners, the poor republican electorate are so blinded by the shinners propaganda. That they fell in behind the very shinner minister who was protesting at the very cuts her department brought in.

There must be shinner logic there somewhere.

And watch the Leo Green industrial tribunal it will be a great insight into that NPD that pervades the shinners and Adams in particular. Watch poor Leo, he will be given the same treatment as Brendan Hughes and Dolours Price.

"I’ll see your “several aspiring candidates”, and raise you a Northern Ireland Culture Minister.

Yes, Sinn Fein MLA Carál Ní Chuilín was there, front and centre, protesting the policies and decisions made by… the NI Culture Minister, Carál Ní Chuilín…

As Róise Ní Bhaoill, from Ultach, said in this previous BBC report

“It’ll have an absolutely detrimental effect on service for the Irish language community. We’re talking about dismantling the whole of the infrastructure for the Irish language community, we’re talking about support for early years, we’re talking about cross-community activity, we’re talking about economic development.”

Asked whether Sinn Féin had misjudged this issue, Ms Ní Bhaoill said: “It seems to me, that yes, they have. Whether they set out to do that or not, I’m not sure, but these are the consequences of the decisions made at the North-South Ministerial Council”.

Indeed, in that same BBC report [13 Feb 2014], Sinn Féin MLA Rosie McCorley was defending the cuts her party, along with the Culture Minister responsible, are now protesting,

Sinn Féin MLA Rosie McCorley believes the changes mark a more efficient use of resources.

“I think it is more important to focus on spending the money wisely on the future,” she said.

Was Rosie on the march today, too"?

Alfie Gallagher said...

Mac Tíre,

"My prediction is that Sinn Fein will be the largest party in the dail and the assembly next time round as a direct result of meeting the english queen."

And therein lies the nub of our criticism of McGuinness. Personal political success is the only thing that matters to him and Gerry Adams; republican principles (and human lives) are incidental and utterly expendable.

The Shinners opposed the Queen's state visit to the Republic in 2011, but they backpedaled when they realised that they had badly misjudged the public mood. That's why we saw Martin McGuinness raise a glass to his Queen this week.

Your predictions about Sinn Féin's performances in the next elections seem overconfident and unlikely to me, but I could be wrong. The party will say or do anything to get votes, so I wouldn't be surprised to hear Sinn Féin supporters like you making the following boast in a few years time:

"My prediction is that Sinn Fein will be the largest party in the Dáil and the Assembly next time round as a direct result of Martin McGuinness's brave and historic condemnation of the Provo campaign"

Sinn Féin is nothing but a vanity project now. Mercs, perks, and jobs for the boys.

Max Headroom said...

"For those who understand no explanations is necessary, for those who don't understand no explanation is possible."

I and everyone else here understands perfectly well want Sinn £ein are playing at. Compromise is too shallow a word to describe Sinn £ein strategy.

One of your lot was on the radio the other day prior to McGuinness having his Judas dinner and the guy said Sinn £ein was doing this as a mark or respect!
Then when he was asked why don't Sinn £ein enter Westminster and contest the welfare cuts, the guy said we're abstention republicans we don't do those things!
I almost fell off my seat with laughter.

Irish Republicans my arse, raising a glass to British monarchy strips you of your Irish republican credentials FOREVER....

Fionnuala Perry said...

'The Queen of England is a bastard'
Well she could consider herself in pretty low company.
No one likes traitors MT not even monarchs.
Another strategic move. Every low down move is called strategic.
IRA surrender strategic. Surrendering weapons strategic.
Administering British rule strategic. Condemning the IRA campaign strategic. Voting for cuts to welfare strategic.
Meeting and dining with the sovereign head of the armed forces occupying this country strategic.
Was signing up for partition also a strategy?
Was ignoring blatant acts of political policing a strategy?

Maybe Tebbit would be better aiming for the strategist and leaving the Fisherman alone.

Henry JoY said...

"The Shinners are master strategists and their ingenuity, guile and determination are the reason why they are at the cutting edge of the struggle for irish freedom."
So says Mac Tíre.

Guile; noun, clever but sometimes dishonest behaviour that you use to deceive someone

Has the imprint of michaelhenry's big foot all over it!

Damned by your own words ya gobshite. Back to the Sewerage Facility with ya.

(and Leinster House is not the Dáil).

Mac Tíre said...

You are right,Tony wasn't hostile and I actually agree with him that there is a deeper meaning behind it. Where we probably disagree is on what that deeper meaning is.

Mac Tíre said...

Henry Joy if you shake hands with someone you hate (Say the Queen of England for example) because you know that it will benefit your cause is that not "clever but sometimes dishonest behaviour?" I didn't put my foot in it with my careful selection of the word guile. I chose it to highlight the fact that the handshake was, in my opinion, strategic and insincere.

Also sorry to disappoint, but I'm not Michael Henry, although I'd be chuffed if I got my own dedicated page on TPQ on my first day!

Joe Denver said...


The vanity was there in Sinn Fein and PIRA from the beginning

Tain Bo said...

Mac Tire,

A strong name, are you related to Cormac Mac Airt by any chance. Indeed, you come across as a son of the country (side) but, read like another conversion of those who bow before a foreign Queen.
The one you address as the Queen of England who is no different from the Queens and Kings before her.

Her Majesty’s Prison the Maze would be reason enough for any Gael to feel the betrayal of Sinn Fein.
Dining with their Queen is a world away from the stark reality of Her Majesty’s prisoners feeling they held no other recourse than to fight the inhuman conditions with the weapon of last resort Starvation.

I will assume you are younger than most that knock about here. Understanding the hunger strikes is imperative as to why many would feel disgust at SF dining with their queen and we are not talking about fish n chips wrapped up in newspaper but the fanciest of world class food.

I can’t speak for anyone else but when Vol. Brendan Hughes R.I.P called off the first hunger strike I was relieved.
The second hunger strike would end tragically with the loss of 10 men.
We tend to overlook they had Fathers, Mothers, Brothers, Sisters and some had their own families’ very ordinary people who embarked on an extraordinary protest.

No matter how eloquent excuse is there is no honest reason as to why republicans should find it agreeable.

You seem to lack confidence in the party as your logic falls on its face when you say SF will become the largest party in Ireland by virtue of the Queen.
Hardly an endorsement of skilled strategists and by cutting edge I will agree that is cutting edge visiting an English queen to win Irish votes?

The problem with what SF are selling is it is so intertwined with British interest and let’s be honest without the aid of the Brits SF would still be second rate want to be politicians.
SF may be the front but the Brits are the driving force steering the party in the direction the Brits want them to go.

I feel your disappointment how the Telly dare usurp Traitor McGuiness and his historical moment in the British spotlight.
It must be tough on the SF camp having to put up with a TV show stealing the spotlight away from the belle of the ball.

Rather than give a second thought to SFs new found love affair with aristocracy I prefer to remember those who refused to surrender physically or metaphorically
And as you serve up praise for the party you should spare a thought for those guests of the English queen who needlessly rotted in jails and those who refused food and died in defiance of British rule and servitude to a foreign Queen.

In a few years we shall be celebrating the anniversary of the Easter Rebellion a true republican once said:

“We serve neither king nor Kaiser!”

It is a sad time as a republican to watch the spectacle of a so called avowed republican toasting the health and well being of a Monarch whose loyal subjects have brought so much death and destruction in their unending quest to conquer the Island and break the will of Irish freedom.

SF can now officially unfurl a banner declaring indeed they do serve a Queen.

Tain Bo said...

Henry JoY,

the thought crossed my mind that it was our very own Mickey Henry but then I remembered that Mickey was a fly by poster and would only talk in riddles.
Anyway I think he is still protesting with his boycott of his own page which in terms of ranting and raving is gift from the Quill he should take advantage of it.

Mac Tire at least puts a bit of effort into posting and I gather he is not a big fan of Mickey. Though that was a bit of sketch as he says he would be chuffed to get his own TPQ page on day one.
The funnier thing being that people know Mickey got his own page adding to his infamy.

36th Ulster Division said...

Here we have shinner Declan Kearney, a shinner in a long line of shinners who says plenty and gets a lot of column inches yet has the ability to say nothing important, meaningful or interesting. Kearney explains why McGuinness deputy first minister in the Northern Ireland assembly. A British regional administration, who's laws are given royal assent. The same Queen, McGuinness had dinner with, his Queen who signs shinner laws into statute.

Is this what the long war was all about.

So here is the shinners thinking. The meeting with the Queen was for the peace process, the Unionists, reconciliation, Haass power sharing and healing.

No mention of elections in the republic, victims or advancing a united Ireland.

The more I hear from the shinners in the big house and in the media the more they sound like Unionists with a small "u".

belfastgit said...

Mac Tire (tiresome more like)

I obviously don't believe that you are Michael Henry McIvor because you can string a few words together without making a spelling or grammar mistake. The fact that you can do that makes me wonder whether or not you are a ghost writer for McIvor, maybe you can deduce from his gibberish something that you can translate into your own gibberish that you just posted on here. SF being the biggest party in Leinster House (or the "Dail" as Traitors like you call it) or the "Shithole On The Hill" as I call the "Assembly" is laughable. As for what Tony O'Hara said, his brother died a horrible death at the tender age of 23, (I say they were murdered by Thatcher) he starved himself to death, not just for the five demands that the prisoners were protesting for, but that the struggle for Irish independence was not seen as criminal. The six hunger strikers that came after Patsy and Raymond, who died on the same day, were murdered by SF, and that's not just a personal opinion, I've listened to lots and lots of people who tell me that Adams and co. could have averted their deaths. If there's any words or phrases I've used that you don't understand, feel free to get back to me on here and I'll explain them to you, slowly, if you want.

belfastgit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
larry hughes said...

Tain Bo

The Queen will be at the GPO on Easter Sunday 2016 inspecting her soon to be 'latest addition' to the NATO war games, the Irish Army. SF will be there, as an electoral tactic of course. Or in other words, to try keeping their jobs, it's all they have or care about.

Is it just me or is there something very Diarmait Mac MacMurrough about all this carry on?

Tain Bo said...


I think SF will be recruiting you as a propagandist for the new cutting edge posh republicans absolutely hilarious the Banquet Men it rings of acceptable toughness for the polite cutting edge party.

belfastgit said...


Do me a favour cara, ask your cartoonist (I can't remember his/her name, shame on me) to do a better likeness of Asshole Morrison. Every time I log into the PQ I keep thinking (when I see that cartoon) that it is Gerry "Blute" McDonnell!

Mac Tíre said...

Tain Bo I imagine I am younger than most on this site but I don't think that this has any bearing on my understanding of the hunger strikes. The sacrifice that the lads made is not lost on me and despite not being caught up in the emotion and anger of the time by virtue of my age, the passing of time certainly has not diluted the anger and resentment that I have for the British establishment for what they did to our hunger strikers.

I have also never lost sight of the fact that these men had families but I don't think that their deaths automatically make the political views of their relatives infallible. While I completely understand the feelings of people like Bernadette Sands McKevitt and Tony O'Hara, none of us can predict which course any of the hunger strikers would have taken today. I also don't think that the brave actions of Brendan Hughes, or for that matter Pat Sheehan, make either men's opinion infallible either.

In fact the most rational assumption I think any of us could make would be to accept that some of the hunger strikers would have followed Sinn Fein thinking while others would have dissented. The men involved offered a cross section of volunteers from all over the north, each with their unique history and reasons for getting involved in the struggle in the first place. All of which may have influenced the way they would have gone in recent times.

Who here disagrees with the above statement and honestly believes that not one of the hunger strikers would be involved with Sinn Fein had they been alive today? And if you do agree then do you think that words such as sell out and quisling could be leveled at them for this? I ask this follow up question because I am in no doubt that there are men and women on both sides of the argument today who would show the same resolve if put in the position of our hunger strikers.

As for the telly, I wasn't disappointed by the documentary, but it certainly strengthened what I already suspected and that is that the Brits fear Sinn Fein. Why else would the spooks go to so much trouble?

Henry JoY said...

Mac Tíre,

if you want to follow practitioners of trickery and guile, personalities rather than principles, trot on ... You may find yourself in a position of comfort, even power (on the back of others' wounds and sacrifices)... But in all likelihood in the context of Irish Republicanism, at the end of the day you'll achieve and receive about as much (sweet FA) as those who trotted after De Valera, Haughey or Bertie Aherne ... Tomás Mac Giolla and Frankie Ross ... the student princes Rabitte and Gilmore.

You know what? ... I could have been wrong all along ... maybe McGuinness isn't a Northern Free-Stater after all .... He's a f*cking Redmondite!

frankie said...

I am not qualified to talk about events that happened in 1986/7 as I was a baby at the time.

But yet you feel qualified to talk about the hunger strikes of 1980/81..Which happened when you (using your maths) probably weren't born..? Mac Tire square the circle..

larry hughes said...

Henry Joy

'You know what? ... I could have been wrong all along ... maybe McGuinness isn't a Northern Free-Stater after all .... He's a f*cking Redmondite!'

Absolutely spot on.
The Queen at the GPO Easter 2014. GET YOUR POPPY NOW!! At your local $hame £ein office.

Mac Tíre said...

belfastgit I wish your daughter well in her republican endeavors.

Good man Frankie. By my maths I can also work out that I was a child when the peace process came into being. What exactly is your reason for not involving yourself in the struggle?

Tain Bo I was making a joke about getting my own page on the first day. Maybe not as good as DaithiD's effort but I try my best. Tough crowd.

I'd love to hear from Larry, Henry Joy and others regarding the questions I ask at 10:49 AM, April 13, 2014. I think I have done my best to answer the majority of questions asked of me.

David Higgins said...

Mac Tire,
Tain bo was right where's my manners, how you doing? You certainly liven things up. Couple of things, first, everything sinn fein does, in my opinion , strengthen the unionist perspective, by their actions the implant in the minds of young republicans the legitimacy the 26 and 6 county governments which obviously is the polar opposite of the beliefs of republicans.
What you call strategy, i call betrayal, but leave that aside and tell me how can behaving exactly the way your enemy wants be good strategy? You believe if sinn fein become the largest party, somehow the Brit establishment will concede their demands? Mac Tire mi5 have won the dirty war everything is how Frank Kitson wanted. With sf at the wheel we drive further and further away from our destination. I struggle to see how you can look at the current road map and think we as republicans are on the right path, but that's your beliefs, so be it.
Regarding the hunger strikers, nobody knows how the hunger strikers would have voted had they lived. Personally i think it is disrespectful to use fallen icons to prove a point, but that's just me. Anyway welcome to the quill.

Max Headroom said...

The 2016 Easter Commemoration in Dublin should be boycotted by every genuine minded Irish Republican throughout the world because it is now clear from media reports that the event is in the process of being hijacked by all those who throughout our history have either completely abandoned the cause of all Ireland freedom or those who have manipulated Irish Republicanism to such an extent that they still claim to serve it in tandem with serving the Crown.

frankie said...

Good man Frankie. . What exactly is your reason for not involving yourself in the struggle?

The short version goes like this. my parents never discussed politics in front of my brothers, sister's or myself. And when I was 16, 17 etc. I was more interested in going to rock'n'roll bars and listening to rockabilly music. I didn't care then or today if the person beside me came from the Shankill, Falls, Markets or other..

gerard hodgins said...

Mac Tire
Failte to the quill. You are correct that Mc Guinness meeting the queen will increase the sinn fein vote - middle Ireland will be a bit more trusting of them and even the west-brit demographic might give them a second preference now putting them in a powerful position for the next election in the south. But to what ends? Fianna Fail of the 21st century where the interests of capital, bankers and the like will win out every time over the needs of the people?
Sinn Fein people like yourself no doubt believe in the spin adams, mc Guinness and co. put on things and believe in the sanctity of the united Ireland project and for that i don’t fault you. But we who know from hard experience what such a leadership will deliver to you, is far from what they sell you my comrade.

Mac Tíre said...

I'm doing great David, thanks. Anyone who votes for Sinn Féin knows that a United Ireland is their number one objective. Some vote for them because of this, others simply because they are more effective and offer more than any other party in terms of delivery. (If you want some examples of this delivery then, with an open mind, read some Sinn Féin literature next time it comes through your letter box. Or add Sinn Féin on Facebook. Or keep an eye on the local newspapers)

Sinn Féin didn't behave how our enemy wanted us to. This is why I make a point over the timing of that slick display of the black arts, in the guise of the spotlight documentary released to coincide with the meeting. The Brits are raging that Martin McGuinness went over there. They are raging because they saw the turn around in public opinion towards the Shinners in the south following the first meeting and wanted to stop any further Sinn Féin gains. They see the strategy and they tried to counter it with a strategy of their own.

If they become the biggest party then they will be able to push more efficiently for a vote for independence. Again I would direct anyone interested to the SNPs campaign in Scotland at the minute. It is a good model for us to work off.

I wasn't using any fallen volunteers to make a point. Tain Bo and Belfastgit brought up the hunger strikers and in my opinion where trying to use a very emotional topic in a point scoring exercise. I was simply responding. Perhaps you should let them know of your disapproval.

Henry JoY said...

Mac Tíre

To your credit, I see from your posts on other threads that at least you're not prepared (yet?) to judge, criticise nor condemn those who have continued militarily to oppose crown forces post GFA. (unlike those who condemn them as 'enemies of Ireland')

I think David Higgins has covered in his comment concerns of anti-treaty republicans. As he says none of us can say with certainty as to how Bobby, Francis, Raymond, Patsy, Joe, Martin, Kevin, Kieran Tom or Mickey would view current events. It is equally possible that each would have opposed all that evolved post '86.
Your diversion into such hypothetical discourse is just a creation of a 'straw-man' in typical S(ewerage)F(acility) style.

Every society preserves it's history. I propose that the function of society recording it's history is to affirm it's successes and potentially convert mistakes into learning opportunities.
To that end, I must once again caution against following tricksters and practitioners of guile and refer you to the futile consequences and the disappointments for those who trotted after Dev, Tom McGill, Frankie Ross et al.

Mac Tíre you don't have to agree with everything I say ... indeed you needn't agree with anything I say ... but I hope you'll stick around a mhac for I'd like to believe that deep down there's an honourable man looking to make contact with his true republican roots!

David Higgins said...

Mac Tire,
Good to know your well. I don't know what you meant by letting Tain bo and Belfast git know of my disapproval, i f they were using emotion to score points, then they're wrong, in my opinion, to do so although if i am being honest i don't know to which comments you refer. I think your a breath of fresh air here despite what anybody else says. I can't see us agreeing politically but it's good to be challenged to prove your argument otherwise the debate becomes stale. You made a statement saying people shouldn't take everything said here as gospel well i say the same to you about sf. Fork tongues and the rest of it. Anyway thats me for the day. Day of peace and all that.

marty said...

Mac Tire just landed from the hills and noticed your comment,"I dont care who delivers Irish unity as long as we get it "mmm you should look up James Connolly,s whoop it up for liberty speech , the so called free state is the example of what that great man warned us about, the changing of a "fleg" and the uniform of those who oppress us will not lessen the pain, a united Ireland run by bankers and developers our resources given away,zero hour contracts ,below minimum wages a land laid to waste and the quisling of $inn £eind trying to tell us that its all ok, as for q$£ being the brilliant strategists well you have to admit when people like Jonathan Powell and others write their scripts and advise them when to shite its a wonder they are not already in government they have now gained all the necessary attributes they are liars ,carpetbaggers and treacherous bastards,

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire,
Answer this, because Pat Sheehan or none of the others you cite could ever answer it but perhaps you can?
Why would former prisoners, and in Pats case a former hunger striker sign up to a process that criminalised former combatants?
It's there in black and white in the Belfast Agreement and quite categorically states in Article 2. (4) of the Fair employment and Treatment Order in 1998, 'that a person's political opinion ( within the context of employment ) does not include an opinion which consists of or includes approval or acceptance of the use of violence for political ends connected with the affairs of Northern Ireland.'
This is so called equality legislation designed to protect people from discrimination on the grounds of holding a religious or political belief?
For years and years and still today ex prisoners cannot be employed because we have a 'criminal record'

Sinn Fein signed up to a process that now tailors how we think.

The strategy that you talk about was the actualisation of the policy of ulsterisation and criminalisation that kick started the hunger strikes in the first place.

So all this talk of who would be where is clap trap because Pat is now in a party that copper fastened the very process he was hunger striking to stop!

Tain Bo said...


you might be onto something there was McGuinness doing a dramatic historical reenactment seeking the aid of the Queen to reclaim the lost kingdom of SF.
After all I am sure the man feels like he deserves to number one but always settles for second.

Surely you jest if Mickey Henry can hold onto his job then I think it is safe to say SF will have jobs for life.

sparky heels said...

What a wonderfull week mc guinness toasting the queen, way to smoke myself retarded and drink myself into obliviononly thing that numbs my pain..class up the banquet men!!

sparky heels said...

Great week mc guinness toast the queen,way to smoke myself retarded and drink myself into oblivion only thing numbs my pain,, sure there more ex pows and vols like myself,,
class up the banquet men!!

Tain Bo said...

Mac Tire,

I did get the humour in your post I just found it funnier that people know Mickey has his own page.

Tain Bo said...

Mac Tire,

I am not sure how you arrive at point scoring but fair enough even though it was a pivotal juncture on the path to politics with the election of Bobby Sands and then Owen Carron whilst these men were dying some of your great strategists’ seen the sympathetic vote for the hunger strikers as a means to an end for political careerists in the making.

The other reason is simple dining with the Queen is an insult to the hunger strikers and their memory an insult to every republican prisoner caged up for fighting against the crown and the crown forces.

If that is emotional point scoring then no bother guilty as charged.

gerard hodgins said...

sparky heels says:

4:00 PM, April 13, 2014 Reply

What a wonderfull week mc guinness toasting the queen, way to smoke myself retarded and drink myself into obliviononly thing that numbs my pain..class up the banquet men!!

what a class comment sparky heels, the only way I can add to it is: I'm away to join you!

banquetmen vs blanketmen ... how times change.

marty said...

Gerard "banquet men " brill. Q$£ ,s Martybroys Mc Guinness,s new book outlining quisling $inn £einds new daring strategy ,eat the brits out of house and home, they have the ability to carry this out with stalwarts like Ramsey and Mc Cann taking out the Stormont restaurant on their own.the rest of the maggots will make short work out of anything left.

Tain Bo said...

Mac Tire,

my apology I didn’t mean to imply or infer that your age had any bearing on your posts. I was simply assuming you were younger.
You come across as very intelligent even though I will disagree with most of what you say that does not detract from your awareness and how you sum things up.

It would be plausible that some of the hunger strikers might have followed SF but I wouldn’t bet my shirt on it.
Back then voting was not a priority or an issue it would be safer to conclude that if the hunger strikers knew there would be a surrender to the Brits there never would have been a Hunger Strike in fact there would have been no prisoners.

The war wasn’t fought to elect politicians back then SFs favourite pastime was hounding and critically condemning the SDLP. Now the SDLP sit in their hypocritical shadow.

Now you are being funny what makes you believe MI5 fear what they own and created they hold the power to topple anyone or any party.
Have you consider the show was just another ploy to raise further the divisions in the north rather than to have a go at their pet party SF?

I said it before without the aid of mi5 and the Brits SF wouldn’t have a leg to stand on and even now that they do they still end up arseing about selling what they sold their only success is propping up British rule.

Confusing times I think I will follow Sparky Heels and numb my already numbed aul brain.

Oh, I forgot it only sounds like a tough crowd until you become part of the furniture so keep on posting and pass the good word on and invite your SF friends along.
I have often wondered why the SF people don’t post here.

Tain Bo said...

Mac Tire,

I can understand any party wanting to expand what I fail to grasp is your logic that SF can somehow magically improve the South whilst the North and the South are political messes what has SF done to improve the North before they set of to fix the South?
Isn’t the reality of that logic SF wish to be in control North and South knowing they alone cannot resolve the problems on the Island so is improving just a fancy term for hopefully controlling?

Dixie said...

Ah sure if it wasn't for the likes of Mac Tíre and to a stupider extend McIvor we really might forget that Adamsism is overloaded with mindless sheep.

They drone on like Declan Kearney about reconciliation and other associated bullshite about pushing the peace process ahead. And about sinn fein taking power North and South. In fact reading Mac Tíre's comments is like listening to one of Kearney's scripts.

Sure the Adamsites already are in government up here in the North and the Tory threats of monetary punishments if they don't tow the Westminister diktat prove they have as much power as a cheap battery.

In fact we all saw Mike Nesbitt recently belittling Kearney by asking him to 'Demonstrate to me the merits of a United Ireland' as Kearney droned on about reconciliation. Nesbitt in fact repeated the question and again Kearney, unable to do otherwise, kept to the script.

Imagine a so called leading Republican being humiliated by a Unionist asking such a question and yet the bulk of Adamsism believes this lot will deliver Irish Unity.

36th Ulster Division said...

Not sure if this is the same "Mac Tire" but here is a poster of the same name on slugger. Telling them that "Wearing a Che Guevara t shirt does not make one a revolutionary".

But getting a regular over average wage, chauffeur driven car and your expenses from the British, makes you a first class socialist Irish republican working hard to dispense with the above for the sake of a united Ireland.

Do turkeys vote for Christmas.

“…that Eirigi were just a political party with no ties to any of the armed groups out there…”

Well, some of its members appear to have had links with armed groups, though I take your point that, on the whole, the organisation does not have any official link to any of these groupings.

Éirigí are a nonsense political party – merely a protest group – and that is all they will ever be.

Even if you are correct in your prediction that many won’t vote because of Mc Guinness raising a toast, you can be sure that few, if any, of those votes will go to Éirigí.

I can assure you that where I live most C/R/N view Éirigí with more contempt than SF.

Wearing a Che Guevara t shirt does not make one a revolutionary.

sean bres said...

McTire doesn't seem to realise that Sinn Fein have signed up to the triple-lock process and recognise its legitimacy. The campaigns in Scotland and Catalonia, among other places, are being looked at by the 1916 Societies, who are the organisation pursuing the type of strategy being advocated here and not Sinn Fein. They have abandoned the republican struggle in return for power within the system. The idea that Irish reunification is number one on their agenda is bogus, their position on Unity is aspirational only and no different to that of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or the SDLP. If you really want to make a difference then join us in the Societies as we push to put Irish reunification back on the political map

sean bres said...

Our strategy is to build support for a 32-County referendum, whether legal or extralegal, to determine the national aspirations of all the Irish people free from external political interference and regardless of artificial lines of demarcation arbitrarily drawn by the British government in Ireland at the time of partition. We feel such a plebiscite gives both the British and Irish governments an alternative route forward and a way out of what is fast becoming yet another failed attempt to resolve the 'Irish question' without losing face. What is there to fear from a referendum on reunification and why are Sinn Fein attempting to dismiss it?

Max Headroom said...

Sinn £ein are the epitome of a perverted political party that will jump through any amount of British made hoops to keep their place at the hierarchies table while claiming the whole thing is a well thought out strategy.
It doesn't take an intelligent individual to workout the only strategy they have is their desire to pervert the minds of everyone else to their way of thinking into believing one can still be an Irish republican while administrating British rule and toasting the Queen of a foreign occupier.

It all reads as the ultimate act of capitulation to me, strategy my arse!

frankie said...

Mac Tire,
This is another thing I have problems getting to grips with. The PSNI/British Gov. want to investigate the murder of Jean McConville and arrest and charge Ivor bell. Yet they close the book on the Birmingham pub bombings for 75 yrs.. They arrest Seamus Daley over Omagh but don't arrest former RUC members for collusion. They are just several examples of many I could cite..There is no level playing field.

I found this comment strange coming from Billy Hutchinson...

Mr Hutchinson continued by saying there has been a "brain drain" of young people leaving our shores for years.
"If people want to get jobs, of course they are going to go to the UK," he said.

So the leader (one of them) of the PUP is admitting that the six counties isn't part of the UK..? Maybe 36th Ulster could enlighten me... I was under the impression that the PUP etc believe that the North was part of the UK.. Billy says something very different..

grouch said...

mac tire says
"As for the telly, I wasn't disappointed by the documentary, but it certainly strengthened what I already suspected and that is that the Brits fear Sinn Fein. Why else would the spooks go to so much trouble?"

im glad i was wearing my corset or ida burst my sides laughing. the brits fear sinn. as basil brush used to say years ago - boom boom.

grouch said...

and fair play bres.

wolfe tone said...

Why anyone would want to spend their time in the house of windsor is beyond me....Liam adams will be kicking himself he got locked up as the shower of dung that were present for the banquet would be his cup of tea!
When the president of ireland paused at the grave of the boul mountbatten i wonder did the thought cross his mind as to why louis had two teenage kids on his boat before the bomb went off? He should have been more careful as it couldve started all sorts of rumours.....did mountbatten show any 'kindness' to the kincora kids i wonder.mmmmmmmm

grouch said...

ur comment at 10.03 is it in a nutshell.

36th ulster division
would wearing a t-shirt with an image of che guevara on the front with the words - Butcher of la cabana - on the back be considered revolutionary.

Mac Tíre said...

Frankie you say that one of the reasons for not getting involved in the struggle was because you;

"didn't care then or today if the person beside me came from the Shankill, Falls, Markets or other."

I think you might misunderstand the republican perspective of the war and indeed the wider republican ideology. The war was not against our neighbours on the Shankill or elsewhere and it was neither a religious or civil war. Rather it was a war against the British establishment.

Gerard Hodgins, go raibh maith agat for the welcome. I am glad that you acknowledge that Martin McGuinness shaking hands with Liz will increase Sinn Féin votes in the south. Others on this site are reluctant to do so. When this happens Martin McGuinness and Sinn Féin will be vindicated for the tough decisions that they have taken in recent times. When they do take power in the south, things will not play out as you suggest but we could go back and forth over this all night, the truth will be seen in due course.

I imagine I will be sticking around Henry Joy, although I think I'm going to have to start posting less! Given that my opinion is at odds with most people on this site I have understandably had quite a few questions and opinions thrown at me but I imagine this will die down. I can't maintain this pace in the long term so people will have to be understanding if I don't reply to each and every remark they make and I for my part will have to resist scratching every itch, for want of a fitting description.

I'm content that my republican roots and my support of Sinn Féin correspond perfectly. I think if anything, these debates and conversations will only strengthen my resolve.

"I can't see us agreeing politically but it's good to be challenged to prove your argument otherwise the debate becomes stale."

David I agree with this statement completely. I am not here to convert anyone to my way of thinking, although if I can formulate a convincing argument and in turn prove to others that Sinn Féin is the best way to achieve their republican objectives, then this is something I would obviously welcome. Instead I am here primarily to challenge anything that I disagree with that. I in turn look forward to being challenged as well. It is worth noting at this point that nothing I say on this site is endorsed by Sinn Féin.

Fionnuala Sinn Féin haven't signed up to a process that criminalised ex combatants. Talk of who would be where is obviously not clap trap, in fact it is quite the opposite. The fact that Pat Sheehan and others like Pat McGeown went on hunger strike and went on to support Sinn Féin illustrates that at least two hunger strikers believe in Sinn Féin. Had Pat Beag's family not intervened when they did we would have been honouring 11 Irish heroes instead of 10. In respect to this, was Pat Beag a sell out or a quisling for being in Sinn Féin Fionnuala?

Mac Tíre said...

No need to apologise over the age thing Tain Bo, I didn't take offence anyway although as you say, none was intended. If Sinn Féin was M15's pet party then why would they want to rock the boat for them? Sinn Fein pull a move to make gains with potential voters who hold serious reservations about armed struggle and Sinn Fein's past. Suddenly a programme documenting allegations from over a decade ago surfaces and claims that a Sinn Féin member was moving guns after the ceasefire. Your theory is right, MI5 do want to stoke divisions in the north, but so is mine, they want to turn as much people as possible against Sinn Féin. Watch it again with an open mind and consider my analysis. The tough crowd bit was just another attempt at a joke. Think I'll give it up now! Sinn Féin has and continues to improve life for many people in the north. Although I should probably use this opportunity to plug the good work they do I won't because I am fast running out of steam with all this writing so instead I will invite you to read some of the literature that comes through your door regarding the upcoming council elections.

I only began using the moniker Mac Tíre yesterday so I never wrote anywhere that, "Wearing a Che Guevara t shirt does not make one a revolutionary". That being said you would have to be an absolute moron to believe that it did! Good on ya Mac Tíre eile!

Sean Bres how do the Societies intend to "push Irish reunification back on the political map" when you have no political representation. I love how you are dismissive of the idea that Sinn Féin becoming major players both sides of the border will allow them to lobby for a referendum on unification, but you believe that the societies can achieve this without any political representation at all! How do you suggest they do this? White line pickets aren't going to cut it this time a chara! All that being said, I invite you to prove me wrong.

Think that's enough writing for one day! I'll get yarning to you all in a bit.

Oiche Mhaith.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire,
I knew both Pat Sheehan and Pat Mc Geown all my life.
Pat Mc Geown came out of gaol a very different person the Pat I knew when we were young.
I may be remembering this wrong but in my memory Pat was silenced by the leadership when he raised concerns around the hunger strike.
Pat Sheehan another life long friend is very aware of what they signed up to.

Why are you saying they have not signed up to a process that criminalised us? Of course they have!
That piece of legislation that I quoted you is in the Belfast Agreement!
It's also still on the table for amendment on Mc Guinness's table hasn't gotten round to it though.
Go read up on it ,ex prisoners cannot even get insurance, jobs , travel. That very piece of legislation was used by the House of Lords to uphold the dismissal of two ex- prisoners.
And now the police can comment on an advanced disclosure about a person's political opinion.

Yes ! All who are aware of what is going on and dedicate themselves to it are party to an ongoing sell out.

larry hughes said...

mac tire

the intelligence agencies embarrass or hang out to dry the odd SF agent every now and then to keep the rest of their wee puppets in line and in dread of the same fate.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire
Good work they (Sinn Fein) do!
Jim mc Viegh represents Clonard and he lives in Lurgan.
Tom Hartley after his big £35000 handshake also claimed to represent Springfield/ Clonard?
The majority of the people in this area wouldn't know him if they fell over him.
Sean Murray said the Cumann are active in the area must be in the dead of night!

They would be bloody entitled to work, God knows they cream enough out of the public purse.
Millionaire on the minimum wage, that's another circle I would like you to square, given the fact you could not answer the criminalisation one.

sean bres said...

Our movement, though relatively young, is already at an advanced stage and is the fastest growing of its kind in this country at present and has been for a considerable period of time. We are founded on the principles of the 1916 Proclamation and are dedicated to their promotion. As an independent organisation we give no allegiance or favour to any political party or organisation although individual members may favour or indeed be involved with political organisations in their own private capacity. That's because we don't believe the type of party-political strategy you advocate can reunify Ireland - history and your own party's current trajectory demonstrate it ends up with the system co-opting you into its very fabric.

We are currently engaged in a wide range of work at the political, cultural and educational level and are already beginning to see dividends arise from our efforts. It is clear to us that an appetite for reunification does exist across this island and as the centenary of the 1916 Rising approaches we can only envisage this increasing in the time ahead. Ultimately our hope is that we can help channel the energies and will of the Irish people into and through a democratic process that can see those energies fulfill their potential and see the democratic will of the people realised in full.

We are in contact with other like-minded movements who have experience with the type of campaign we hope to mount, especially the Scottish and Catalan examples. An analysis of the current international situation in regards to separatist movements pursuing their aims through referenda-based strategy demonstrates that this is a live option for those who seek Irish independence. Much has already been achieved across Western Europe from the Italian provinces of Veneto and Sardinia to the upcoming referenda in Scotland and Catalonia later this year. This gives us genuine belief that our campaign can become the sort of credible political alternative we feel the people of this country are crying out for

sean bres said...

Basically the 1998 Agreement was poorly negotiated by the republican representation at the multi-party talks. Structurally it is a mirror of the Framework Documents which the republican movement rejected as a British solution when first mooted in 1995. The 3-strand concept at the core of the 1998 Agreement originated in the Framework Documents. What's really happened is that Britain, taking account of the Provisional IRA's military strength, created a new set of political relations and a new political dispensation to deal with it while ensuring their continued presence in Ireland. The reality is they ran the negotiations from start to finish, it was not an equal process.
What we have today results from that. Sinn Fein, trapped by their own acceptance of an internal settlement that precludes movement towards Irish reunification, have to deliver something for their loyal followers and that is electoral progress, especially now in the South having probably exhausted the potential for growth in the six-counties. To that end they are demonstrating remarkable success but the truth is it does not advance Irish reunification so long as the Unionist Veto remains party policy.
By making the British presence acceptable through the like of this carry-on with the Queen while following a border poll strategy then even were such a poll to be granted (highly unlikely) it would likely struggle to gain the required support to bring about constitutional change. With the British claim to the six-counties now being willingly legitimised by the Irish establishment, which Sinn Fein are near breaking their necks to join (auto-correct, they are already a part of it) a border poll strategy is doomed to failure, any suggestion otherwise is not realistic. Ultimately and as I said earlier there's no difference in yourselves, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or the SDLP when it comes to the constitutional question. Nothing you can say or point to will ever alter that fact.
We in the Societies hope to transcend the narrow party-political strategy advanced by New Sinn Fein and to help construct the broad base we see as necessary to bring about Irish reunification. But from a personal point of view my own preference in terms of a political party I would vote for is Republican Sinn Fein, who I have no problem working with. Their politics are my own in terms of where they stand on partition, the economy, imperialism and solidarity. Their politics are an example to us all of what the republican position should be, even if you don't subscribe to them as an organisation

Max Headroom said...

Mac Tire

By your own assumption your are not too long out of your bed in terms of being politically involved which makes you a post 1994 ceasefire Shinner from what I can gather from an earlier post you made on this blog. Most people that post here go back much further than that politically and some much further than others but they all share the same common denominator and that is they never had a price on their republican principles and could not be bought, not then, not now, never. I myself became politically aware in the late 1970s and then with the outbreak of the hunger strikes in the early 1980s my political beliefs were set in stone ever since. During this time quite a few of the posters of this blog including its owner were interned and serving lengthily prison sentences for their republican beliefs. Those beliefs are still unbending and unlike Sinn £ein they have not dissented from anything. To highlight one example of a post you made earlier when you said people should read the Sinn £ein literature which is being fired through their letter boxes, you fail to grasp the fact that what you are saying is akin to asking your granny to suck fucking eggs. I will admit that I do occasionally have a quick read over what Sinn £ein are spouting but only so that I can amuse myself and have a laugh. I, like yourself was once a staunch advocator of Sinn £ein in my younger years whenever they stood shoulder to shoulder with the people against the injustices of a foreign oppressor and their Anglican implants. Those days are now over for Sinn £ein who willingly let themselves become morally and politically perverted under the influence of their old foe. The truth of the matter is there was no strategic master plan of Sinn £ein’s in motion, those who held the keys to the movement were privately compromised and given a British ultimatum to grind the struggle to a halt or else and McGuinness was played like the big fish he was by the Brits who steered his direction on the end of their line. As for the unwavering hardliners who refused to toe the leaderships line they were sometimes taken out as was the case at Loughall. In regards to Adams & McGuinness who are clearly two of the most cheating, conniving, wavering, quisling, corrupt, devious, politically perverted, self serving individuals one is ever likely to come across, who in their right mind would want to vote for them let alone trust them? I would sooner kill myself and that’s a fact.
As for your opinions you are entitled to have them just like everyone else on this earth but what you are spouting from the recent Sinn £ein hymn sheet is an insult to the intelligence of most people here so try and be a bit more aware of what you’re actually saying especially to those who have decades more experience of the conflict and of Sinn £ein than yourself.

ranger1640 said...

Mac Tire:

I think you might misunderstand the republican perspective of the war and indeed the wider republican ideology. The war was not against our neighbours on the Shankill or elsewhere and it was neither a religious or civil war. Rather it was a war against the British establishment".

I think you will find that the facts of the troubles will not back your view. This short statement is enough suggest that you have been indoctrinated by shinner/provo propaganda, and nothing said on here would ever change your closed mindset.

frankie said...

The real reason Martin McGuinness went to the banquet..

DaithiD said...

Surprised it hasnt been mentioned, but people like Padraig Pearse would have installed a Monarch in the Proclaimed Republic, a German one (a different German one!). So i guess the republican relationship with nobility is murky at best. Additionally , its really tiresome to read penis measuring ‘ I was here since 1970’ stuff being levelled at people to minimise their view. I bet Adams used this argument too when logic or reason wasn't helpful. As a ‘come lately’ myself im liberated from any baggage, and can evaluate ideas on their merit.

Mac Tíre said...

Max Headroom I have been politically aware from a very young age (pre 1994) although my opinions and beliefs where not as refined as they are today...and at the time probably amounted to "the brits are bastards, the IRA are amazing!" with a limited understanding of the complexities involved. My political activism started pre 1994 as well. It wasn't much and consisted of selling an phoblacht, doing leaflet drops and distributing easter lillies. Not much I know, but at nine years of age I was doing more than most Irish people do in their lifetime. Getting fully behind Sinn Féin is a very recent thing. While I was always thereabouts I never committed to them 100%, although I did help them from time to time and always gave them my vote. After a lot of soul searching I concluded that Sinn Fein is the best way to fulfill the republican desires I have had since the moment I have been able to formulate my own opinion. I don't think age can be used as a measuring stick. I think a better indicator is whether the individual is politically active or not. I am a political activist and whether you agree or disagree wih my views I believe that they will deliver us to a new united Ireland. You better be sure you are doing your bit also before you try to pull rank. Political awareness and political activism are two entirely different things!

Ranger1640 The point you quote me on is not exclusively a Sinn Fein idea. It is at the core of all republicans beliefs. Have a read through the 1916 proclamation.

Max Headroom said...

I mean no disrespect to anyone who didn’t happen to be around when the war was raging because that is no fault of their own and the term ‘come lately’ is something that I’ve never used to describe anyone and would advise others to do the same. Like I said previously I only became politically ‘aware’ of my surroundings in the late 1970s when I was just a kid but many others here were already in the meat grinder by this stage giving their lives unquestionably to Sinn £ein and IRA leaderships who in return abused their commitment to the struggle. The point I was making is that years of first hand experience out weights any amount of books or hearsay and to have someone who has little or no hard experience tell others ‘this is how it really happened’ is an insult to the brave men & women who did most of the heavy lifting. If we are to believe that Adams who claims he was never in the IRA and McGuinness who claims he left in 1974 then by their own assumption they didn’t do any lifting at all and have the bare faced audacity to discredit people like Brendan Hughes whom Adams & McGuinness couldn’t hold a candle to in regards to courage.
Just off the top of my head here’s a few books that I would recommend to anyone who weren't around which will shed some light on Adam’s & McGuinness’s real roles in the IRA.
"Bandit Country" by Toby Harnden, “Voices From the Grave” & “A secret History of the IRA” by Ed Maloney, “Shadows” by Ian Barker (an obvious alias) , and ‘We Wrecked the Place’ by Jonathan Stevenson’

Just to touch on your last point in regards to political awareness and political activism Sinn £ein have abandoned the cause of truth & Justice for Bloody Sunday victims in Derry and one Derry Sinn £ein councillor even attempted to demonise the 2014 commemoration which I attended where not one single Shinner showed up, so tell me which of us is active and which of us has abandoned the peoples ship?

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire
There is a world of difference between being active and political awareness.
My son tied Paul Maskey in knots over the water charges. Maskey is politically ( never threw a stone in his life) passively active but my son didnt get the upper hand in the debate just because he was on the money but of the two he had the most political kudos.
That's what's wrong with people like you, you listen to a few rebel songs, sell a few lillies and hey presto you know it.
Maybe if you ditch the activism for awareness you might realise that this way to a United country is not the one people were imprisoned and died for.

DaithiD said...

Max Headroom, I haven't noticed you refer to your time in the H-Blocks or the hunger strike before, so forgive me. I presumed you would of garnered your information through books or hearsay like myself.

ranger1640 said...

Here is what champagne Marxism looks like, and how the banquettemen square up to the blanketmen, or should that be fully paid up members of the British establishment.

ranger1640 said...

"Ranger1640 The point you quote me on is not exclusively a Sinn Fein idea. It is at the core of all republicans beliefs. Have a read through the 1916 proclamation".

Since when did the current shinners/provos up hold the 1916 proclamation. They whether you like it or not and no amount of shinner/provo propaganda can disguise or hide the fact that, they were engaged in a nasty little sectarian campaign. Just like those on the loyalist side.

Mac Tíre said...

Fionnuala you are spot on that there is a world of difference between being politically active and politically aware. That's exactly what I said in my last comment which you can read below.

"Political awareness and political activism are two entirely different things!"

I feel I am both.

I hope you'll excuse me if I don't take you at your word regarding your son tying people in knots. I certainly enjoy rebel songs from time to time. Where did your son gain his political kudos? Was it from a cassette, cd or download?

Max Headroom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Max Headroom said...


Apologies on my part because I believe I've given you the wrong impression.
The reality is I never spent a day on remand or convicted but my closest mates and a brother of mine served time in the crum/blocks in the 1980s and I guess I could consider myself as one of the lucky ones who came and went to those places at my own choosing.

Max Headroom said...

My mistake, 'Shadows' was written by Alan Barker not Ian Barker and the book wasn't a bad read and gives an insight into what went on with Raymond Gilmore Derry's most famous rat and his RUC handler who wrote it. "Stakeknife" wasn't a bad read either.

frankie said...

It's not I didn't understand Irish Republicanism. When I was growing up I wasn't interested in it (not the same ball park). My interest growing up in Ardoyne during the conflict was

We where only kids after all and on reflection should probably never have been in Belfast and in a notorious part of the docks on a Fri and Sat nights at the height of the troubles.
(many a lie was told to your parents about your weekend recreational activities)

I remember in 1988 at my first all nighter, somewhere in the middle of the Newtownards Road.. I fell asleep at the party (I was drunk on a few cans of larger and a bottle of strongbow) and when I sobered up on the Sunday morning I found out my friends shaved half my head (not becasue of my religion, but because I fell asleep)..I've said it before here, I've never been involved in riot or thrown brick at army jeeps or anything like that.

Now yesterday we both mentioned 'truths' and why I take for example Brendan Hughes version of events closer to the truth than Gerry Adams . I gave you a few examples of Gerry Adams telling porkies.. And you for reasons known only to yourself ignored those points...I can understand people getting facts wrong becasue of memory lapase, the fog of time etc.. But Gerry Admas lied to the press (like McIvor).

Martin McGuinness claims to have left the provisionals early/mid 70' is comm by Brian Arthurs from August 1995...

Mac, what truth do you believe?

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire,
Its little odds to me whether you take me at my word or not.
You wouldn't believe me about legislation and it's easy disproved, you can check it up.
P Maskey tried to argue that Sinn fein had not signed up for water charges my son had seen the actual
Documentation that said otherwise.
They had a political discussion and a third party told me Maskey was clueless.
I take no joy in any of this. I actually think it is quite sad that a clown is representing people.

I await your reply on the criminalisation policy, the great work Sinn Fein are engaged in and of course their unification strategy?

Mac Tíre said...

Frankie I asked you the question;

"What exactly is your reason for not involving yourself in the struggle?"

and you answered;

"The short version goes like this. my parents never discussed politics in front of my brothers, sister's or myself. And when I was 16, 17 etc. I was more interested in going to rock'n'roll bars and listening to rockabilly music. I DIDN'T CARE THEN OR TODAY IF THE PERSON BESIDE ME CAME FROM THE SHANKILL, FALLS, MARKETS OR OTHER.."

That last sentence suggests to me that you feel that those who DID involve themselves in the struggle DID CARE about where a person resided in Belfast and by extension of the demographic makeup of Belfast had issue with what type of religious or political allegiance they may have held. More recently you have said;

"It's not I didn't understand Irish Republicanism. When I was growing up I wasn't interested in it (not the same ball park)."

The war was not against protestants and unionists, it was against the British presence here. So while you didn't say you didn't understand Irish Republicanism I feel that you demonstrated a clear lack of understanding. I don't hold this against you because as you said you were not exposed to republican ideology from your parents growing up and that is sound. But if you have an interest in it now then it is something you need to know.

You also shouldn't take is so personal that I didn't answer one of your questions. You witnessed the sheer amount of questions directed at me over the course of this thread. This is not a complaint by the way as I enjoyed answering them. It is merely a way of pointing out that I couldn't cover everything so chose instead to answer things I didn't think I had answered previously, or at least touched on. That being said I will give you an answer now.

On another thread during a conversation with yourself I said;
"And no I don't instantly believe the personal truths of IRA or INLA men and women who wrote on here or anywhere else for that matter. This applies to veterans on both sides by the way. Their truths is just that, "THEIRS." It is not THE truth, it is only their version."

Now I have seen no evidence to suggest Gerry was in the IRA so I will assume he wasn't. He was, however, a prominent republican figure and one of the leaders of Sinn Féin during the troubles, so I would consider him a veteran of the troubles. Now in my quote above you will notice that I have written "THIS APPLIES TO VETERANS ON BOTH SIDES BY THE WAY." Of course people will try to use this quote to make accusations that I have no faith or trust in the leader of my party but on closer inspection this is not the case. I have also written that "I don't INSTANTLY believe" by which I mean that I don't blindly accept everything as fact. So if I hear someone make a statement or claim I may choose to believe it, reject it or do my own independent research to find out more. I also suggest that it is "THEIR TRUTHS." This can be interpreted any number of ways. It may be that due to the passing of time they genuinely forget. Or maybe they have confused the information in their heads or have simply gotten their facts wrong. They are only human after all. It is "their truth" in so much as they believe it to be true, while other evidence may suggest different.

By the way, whether or not Gerry Adams was ever in the IRA or did or didn't sing "the Bright Side of Life" have no bearing on my political opinions.

DaithiD said...

Max, understood. The War should be better understood in retrospect anyway, because peoples individual experiences, such as your own, can be aggregated, and a narrative established.
This isn’t directed solely to you, but if you are going to judge on relative contributions to the cause, its fairer to ask when that person reaches your equivalent age.

Mac Tíre said...

I have taken a look through the Belfast Agreement and have found this under the heading Prisoners;

"5. The Governments continue to recognise the importance of measures to facilitate the
reintegration of prisoners into the community by providing support both prior to and after
release, including assistance directed towards availing of employment opportunities, re-training and/or re-skilling, and further education."

You then quoted Article 2. (4) of the Fair employment and Treatment Order in 1998 which states;

"that a person's political opinion (within the context of employment) does not include an opinion which consists of or includes approval or acceptance of the use of violence for political ends connected with the affairs of Northern Ireland."

From what I understand of the above article it is stating that if you hold an opinion, post 1998, which endorses violence for political ends then you are not protected by this order. If you were filling in a job application or were sitting a job interview why would you make your political opinion known for a start? I also see no mention of ex-political prisoners or former combatants in the quote. You have given me no evidence to suggest that Sinn Féin has signed up to any process that criminalised former combatants.

You heard about your son's exploits through a third party? So I am not even expected to take you at your own word but instead to take you at the word of some unnamed third party? Fionnuala come on now!

Lastly I will give you some examples of what Sinn Féin have delivered to West Belfast. This list will only be a fraction of what Sinn Féin are doing locally as I am just going to list a few of my personal favourites.

- £260million New Children's hospital
- £105 million Leisure Review across the city
- £80million GAA Stadium
- £2million in Dunville Park
- £1.9million in Albert street environmental scheme
- £7million in St Comgalls
- £75,000 in Cluain Ard
- £20,000 into Clonard boxing club
- A new 3g pitch at Willowbank

I hope this answers you questions.

Mac Tíre said...

And Frankie that comm from Brian Arthurs doesn't implicate Martin McGuinness as being a member of the IRA after the early/mid 70's. In fact it doesn't even mention him.

Mac Tíre said...

The post at 10:14 is directed towards Fionnuala Perry. This should be obvious from reading it but I should have addressed her at the beginning none the less.

sean bres said...

That's some list lad... Just wondering where Sinn Fein got all that money?

Dixie said...

Mac Tíre said...

"And Frankie that comm from Brian Arthurs doesn't implicate Martin McGuinness as being a member of the IRA after the early/mid 70's. In fact it doesn't even mention him..."

Well he was in the IRA when I went into jail and he was still in it when I got out...There I've implicated him.

Oh and the Dark Implicated him in The IRA and Armed Struggle by Rogelio Alonso...

The thing is, you can't tout on a tout and I'd say most Republicans would agree with that.

When I say Republicans I'm not referring to The Queens Own Shinners and Paedophile Protectors.

They're presently on a sell out tour of Britain...

Mac Tíre said...

you and the Dark can implicate irish men and women to your heart's content but without proof you are wasting your time? Touting is touting.

Sean Bres,
the people of the north pay taxes and there is also a functioning economy here. I imagine that is where the money came from. Here's a thought...make a list of the things the Societies have secured for the people of West Belfast?

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire,
They signed up to a process that rubber stamped criminalisation. Where in that section that you have quoted does it say. Prisoners convicted of political offences will have equal entitlement to jobs, house insurance, car insurance or availability to travel?
Sixteen years after that Agreement we still have none of these.

On an interview form, even today and it is similar on courses. The conviction box will ask about criminal offences, there is no stipulation for political offence why?
If they were serious about (5) why has it been given mediocre status? Why were the real constraints on ex prisoners not dismantled?

Millions of pounds go to Coiste, Tar is teach and tar nall from Euro funding. Who benefits from this?
Ex prisoners who align themselves with Sinn Fein no one else and they only benefit because it's part of the money merry go round.

I can tell you something now. I have never been contacted ever by one of these groups in relation to support of any kind.
Almost all my friends are ex prisoners and I don't know one that has ever been contacted either.

We didn't see ourselves as needing to be 're integrated' we were political prisoners not convicts
Fair play to anyone who was reskilled and retrained but all most of us wanted was a fair crack like everyone else.

Prisoners were never on the agenda they were obscured by the elegant in the room which was a wee bit of political kudos and a big fat pile of cash.

I will get back to you on the other two points later today.

larry hughes said...

mac tire

'The war was not against protestants and unionists, it was against the British presence here. So while you didn't say you didn't understand Irish Republicanism I feel that you demonstrated a clear lack of understanding'.

Republican self delusion continues with the latest generation. At least we know any young turks joining SF today are openly upwardly mobile 'job seekers' in the political arena. But the above statement just reminds me why republicanism is flawed. The protestants and unionists(British presence)were always very much at war with 'republicans' (ATAT) and had no interest in being Irish. That statement highlights a perpetuated and deliberate republican delusion and a rejection of the reality and is simply a downright lie. Alice in wonderland norn iron style.

frankie said...

Brian Arthurs say's "I also heard that Mc G!! had stood down from OC of Northern command and that BRIAN K! had taken over from him.".

So when Brian Arthurs talks about McG standing down as OC from Northern Command he was referring to who? Barry McGuigan, Martin McGartland? I doubt the Brian K was him.

One of your personal favourites is Casemount Park at a cost of 75million green backs.

marty had this to say.."becoming a private helipad for Gerry Itwasntme ,to the total farce that this £75 mill investment really is, its was only a few years ago that £8 mill was spent on refurbishing this ground to hold approx 32,000 now we are told that £75 mill is to be spent on something that will increase the capacity by just a few thousand, .. "

I doubt if anyone would argue against the New Children's Hospital. And if it wasn't for political point scoring it could have been underway years before at a lot less cost. It wasn't that long ago that the Royal went into melt down. Wouldn't it have been better to redirect money to plugging holes with the health service while the new hospital gets underway so incidents like I haven mentioned didn't happen, instead of redeveloping Casemount Park? The residents don't want it, weren't kept in the fold, weren't consulted..Who actually will benefit from it Mac? We know who wont see any benefits

Cllr McIvor (PSF) thinks like this "The GAA is going to buy the homes of those close to Casement who complains the most-hate".

marty also said as for employment when the initial building is completed there will be around 6 full time posts

When Brendan Hughes worked on a building site in West Belfast after being released he had this to say A big west Belfast contractor paid us 20 a day. I tried to organise a strike but the other ex-POWs were so desperate, they wouldn't agree. One of the bosses said "Brendan, we'll give you 25 a day but don't tell the other."

I think that when both sites get off the ground the same will happen. Brown envelopes under the table and the workers exploited.

Another of you favourites is Cluain Ard. And they got (according you to) 75k. A few day's ago Dee Fennell wrote an article and the crux is this...John O'Dowd told a father of young children, his children have a more direct route to school via the Shankill Road and they aren't entitled to a bus pass..Fcuk you. Next.." . This is the same Shankill Road that connects to the Woodvale Road (the peace camp site) , the same Shankill Road where not long ago Mairtin O Muilleoir was subjected to vile, violent and vitriolic abuse and actually feared for his life..But it is ok to send young children down the same road? ...

marty said...

Mac Tire I notice you never replied to my remarks about your assertion that quisling $inn £einds are superb strategists maybe you can give an example, most people who have removed their heads from their arses believe that those quislings whom you regard as republican,s (I for the love of me cant see that,)have been guided and led by advisers and suits from Whitehall, Jonathan Powell wrote your president for life Ard Feis address for fuck sake,if those two muppets Gerry Itwasntme and Martybroy Mc Gutless were in the private sector then bankruptcy would be the order of the day,which brings me to a latter post of yours extolling the virtues of quisling $inn £eind in Belfast ,you list what appears to be an impressive amount of money spent on West Belfast until it is closely looked at. the childrens hospital was a badly needed refurbishment and would have been delivered even by the bigot Poots , like the rest of the projects you mentioned once the refurbishment/building work is/was completed can you tell me just exactly how many new jobs these favourites of your,s will create for West Belfast, ? It is window dressing on a grand scale but I,m afraid the fucking shop is empty , its easy to see that there is an election on the horizon when quisling $inn £einers are sent among us to spread their bullshit I for one dont buy your crap, .

billy brooks said...

MAC.TIRE..You keep on saying the war wasnt agin the snouts.You must be to young to remember the falls and bombay st and not a brit about the place.Of course it was secterian unless you lived a sheltred childhood.

Mac Tíre said...


Where in that section that I quoted does it say that prisoners convicted of political offences WILL NOT have equal entitlement to jobs, house insurance, car insurance or availability to travel? You still have not demonstrated how Sinn Fein have signed up to a process that rubber stamped criminalisation.

Larry I fail to see how an ideology that calls for "religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens" and promises to cherish "all the children of the nation equally" is flawed. I don't think the protestant population (especially those with nationalist and republican leanings) or the unionist population can be accused of being at war with republicans as a whole. Indeed a significant portion of them felt that they where but the ATAT policy was a loyalist one. Also let it be noted that loyalists didn't target republicans exclusively, they targeted all catholics.

frankie said...

They're presently on a sell out tour of Britain...
Dixie, they are honing their skills to appear on Britians got talent as the 'New Comedians'...

That last sentence suggests to me that you feel that those who DID involve themselves in the struggle DID CARE about where a person resided in Belfast and by extension of the demographic makeup of Belfast had issue with what type of religious or political allegiance they may have held.

Mac when I was a pup, on Wednesday afternoons I watch catholic school kids throw stones at protestant school boy buses for no other reason than they were protestant. Then a few day's later a riot would have kicked off and I'd been passing by and watching the some of the same kids take on the full might of the British Army.. I'd go on my scrathing my head and wondering.."Who is the enemy". I understood the British part of the equation but I couldn't get my head around attacking protestant school kids. And the odd time I'd take a bus that went down the Shankill to meet my mates in Divis Flats..And personally Mac I didn't see much difference between the Divis or Shankill Road flats they shouldn't have been build in the first place.

The war was not against protestants and unionists, it was against the British presence here. So while you didn't say you didn't understand Irish Republicanism.I feel that you demonstrated a clear lack of understanding.

Mac why didn't members of PSF (or repubicans ) on Wednesday afternoons stand at the top of Estoril Park and prevent kids from getting criminal records, from getting 'sucked' into what some republicans knew then was a very dirty, murky world?. From stopping them throwing stones at protestant kids on their way home from school?

On another thread during a conversation with yourself I said;..

I know what I said. We talked about truths and Gerry Adams. Now Gerry Adams has always denied he was a member of the PIRA (except once and Mac do the reserach yourself). I gave you exampes of him knownling tell lies. So why should I believe his denial about not being a member of the PIRA..?

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire
Of course they have!!
Re integration in its Societal definition in relation to prisoners returning to society means. Probation and rehabilitation measures to enable criminals to reintegrate back into society.
If we look at it from a psychology perspective it will state that reintegration is, returning the mind to integrated state from which it has become deranged.

The choice of wording is crucial and you will find how crucial it proved if you go and examine CD Dwyer's study in the European journal in relation to ex political prisoners in the North being treated as criminals post Agreement.

This is precisely where you age and inexperience and grasp on the reality of how this agreement was reached and actively transmitted has let you down.
We could not get employment in the 70s, 80s, 90s and that still remains today.

What sort of movement leaves it's former combatants criminalised in legislation as with the Fair Employment legislation. Which I will come back to.
That piece of legislation was challenged and upheld by the House of Lords post 1998.

Something now exists which never existed post Agreement you don't have to have a conviction for the Police to give an' informed opinion' or your political activities.
This is precisely what Sinn Fein signed up to!
But then you believe big Gerry wasn't in the IRA?

frankie said...

You still have not demonstrated how Sinn Fein have signed up to a process that rubber stamped criminalisation..

Mac here are three examples... Alun Lundy. who was jailed on trumped up charges..,

Martin Corey, who is exiled at present.

Stephen Murney, jailed for taking pictures and not buying into PSFs line of thought?

I could have use Gerry McGeough, Colin Duffy Alex McCory... I had loads to chose from Mac. There are loads of examples where PSF have rubber stamped anti agreement republicans as criminals.

larry hughes said...

Mac Tire

when have the 'prods' in the North ever shown an interest in being cherished and treated equally? (laughing at you more like am I) That is your silly delusion and belongs to 'yourselves alone', it's not a shared vision. They want all the perks for themselves and to treat you like a turd. On the other hand, if Peter Robinsons 'thaw' in attitude is real you will perhaps see your borrowed middle class stoops vote switch to become a lighter shade of unionism. That's the problem with things that are borrowed, they tend to be temporary acquisitions. Unionism will play limited ball with wealthy taigs to retain partition. Nothing deluded about their 'superior strategy'.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire
That last bit related to advanced disclosure forms whereby police can now disclose anything of a political nature to perspective employers !
Totally unheard of pre Agreement.
Stitched up like kippers we were. I think the school of psychology says it all!!

Tain Bo said...

Mac Tire,

ta, save it for a rainy day as you never know with politics when disagreement becomes offensive.
I did get a laugh at your cassette tape, CD, line you left out the ancient Walkman and the old 8 track not to forget my favourite the Transistor radio, which I still nostalgically use.

Your moniker was/is of no concern to me I believe that was a query from Larry and then 36th Ulster Division who I believe is also new here (by the way if you are new here 36th, welcome to the Quill) who got lost in the shuffle as we natives of the blog could identify him we have a little more problem with indentifying the rare species of SF as we are not used with being graced by them. I don’t think you would count Mickey Henry as a good ambassador for your party and apart from that Anthony reminded once that a bloke called Westie was here for a spell, I checked my notes, and indeed he was, smart enough bloke pity he didn’t stay the course. I can’t recall any other SFr. That might explain the amount of comments that landed on your doorstep.
Apart from the mythological significance your moniker holds no other importance.

Back to the Pet Party and the balance of political maneuverings! Earlier you suggested that Mc Banquet Man Mc Guinness was pulling a flanker by greeting and toasting their Queen.
That is a wee bit naïve to believe that this Royal stunt was engineered by SF and they got one over on the establishment which they are part of.

Surely by that logic then it would appear that MI5 are the ones who outflanked republicans by gaining a permanent Barrack in the North. The main reason they have as they don’t trust anyone so when it comes down to power you could say they decide who or which party is worth directing at the right times.

Unlike republicans MI5 are in the business of spying and directing whether it is agitating the loyalists/unionist or republicans and SF we are guaranteed to find their paw prints all over the show.
Something Republicans and Loyalists found out the hard way over the years.

Politics are dirty business something that MI5 ignore as their business is seeking and finding out, weighing up and then seeing what advantage they have with the information at hand.
In 98 SF were riding on the crest of the highest wave they have ever been on 16 years later they no longer are as visibly important. They had served a purpose and delivered the Brits an important concession that being they had dismantled the RM and removed the only serious threat there was to the UK.

You admit as much by saying SF pull a move to make gains with potential voters who hold serious reservations about armed struggle but more importantly about SFs role in that armed struggle which you deliberately change by pacifying and reducing it to SFs past.
Their past was the gun and then the gun and the ballot box and now they still depend on that residual memory of the gun to feed their ballot box.

Then you consider that the show on the Telly was to counter SFs flanker which is true to a point the show merely took some of the sting out of what they knew would be bad blood amongst the natives at the Queen meeting the Banquet Man.
The only flaw in your theory is that SF were not pulling a fast one over the Brits but a fast one over republicanism.

Your belief that this was only a visit for SF to use the Queen to gain votes on the Island is a bit of a joke. Why would such competent strategists’ make such a weak move based in the “hope” that brings them more honest prominence and should be enough to convert people to vote for them?
That sounds more like they are being directed and have little confidence in themselves or the party.


Tain Bo said...


Speaking of which the old guard of the party are aging the prominent figures will not always be there even as we speak MI5 will and have been grooming those within the party most suited as replacements.
There is little to no guarantee that in the future the party dynamics of Adams, Mc Guinness will remain intact.

The other problem you tend to overlook is numbers the larger the party grows it runs the possibility of imploding on itself it is just not possible for the rank and file to think the exact same way at the moment it suits MI5 to keep the party intact and growing.
Just as in 86 the spooks will engineer another split if they believe SF are growing too fast and showing signs of breaking away from the Status Quo.

It might sound foolish but it has already happened were republicanism turned on itself and continues to this day.
The British will continue to use anyone or means to preserve their interests on the Island if you believe SF are superior strategists then by experience that would make MI5 and the British phenomenal strategists as they have you and the SF party believing they have control which begs the question why do the Brits still own the North?

Et tu, politics?

Tain Bo said...

36th Ulster Division,

the simple answer is SF has nothing remotely interesting to say and the only meaningful thing they have to speak is self-importance the contrived warped illusion wherein they sincerely believe that meeting the queen will enhance their self-image.
If you remember Danny “Bangers” Morrison recently said that anti-SF republicans bog him and the other eegits down in details, well, SF bog us down in mostly rubbish a lot of hot air but no wind in their sail.

That is what the meeting was for an attempt at outdoing the unionists and what better way to show they have “changed” than to toast their former enemy.

By the way if you are new here welcome to the Quill.

sean bres said...

In response to your risible comment McTire as to what the 1916 Societies have delivered for West Belfast all I think needs said is that the Societies have helped secure for the people of West Belfast a future for the republican tradition and you can't put a price on that - especially when it's considered how far that tradition had been weakened (sold off). It's the simple things in life that count, I put more stock in and value as far more worthy the young lads from the like of the Joe McGaritty Society in Carickmore power-washing, de-weeding and cutting the grass in the Garden of Remembrance for the Easter Monday commemoration free of charge than anything your British money can ever account for in West Belfast or wherever. Because at the end of the day you simply can't buy respect, you have to earn it. I'd say most people, certainly where I'm from, will tell you Sinn Fein no longer carry any credibility as a republican organisation. Just as your comments allude to they are now focused on administering British rule - end of story. The same functions you laud are carried out by the DUP, the UUP, the SDLP, Alliance and whoever else so it hardly qualifies you or them as republican on that basis then does it?

jgr33n said...

This has been a fascinating thread to read and as one who was not involved in the struggle but who believes strongly in the right to national self determination and that the 1918 election was a mandate for an independent 32 county republic and that the state of "Northern Ireland" has no legitimacy, I look at what PSF have become today and I can't help thinking that the SDLP could have achieved the same. In other words if you are going to sign-up for partition, support all the institutions of the British state, including its security services and administer the "province" & at the same time "aspire" to a united Ireland, then tell me really what is the difference between PSF today and what the SDLP always were?

The reality is that every step that PSF takes is further away from a united Ireland so if the strategy of the shaking hands with the Queen was to bring it forward I think it is like Columbus setting sail for India/China but ending up in the West Indies...

BTW is the new PSF slogan "Brits In"

frankie said...

In fairness to Gerry Adams on a human level he has suffered more than most. He's been shot at, his house has been bombed, families members killed etc.. He came through the conflict with a lot of battle scars.

Gerry Adams talks about PSF being a republican socialist party, for the people etc... Yet he flies to the USA for a privately funded operation . Why didn't he simply do the socialist thing and join the waiting lists like thousands of others have done? Stand shoulder to shoulder with the people. It wasn't as if it was life threatening illness. Think of the brownie points he would have chalked up and not left himself open to ridicule.

Wolfie is more of a socialist.

Mac Tíre said...

Arthurs could have been talking about Barry McGuigan, Martin McGartland or Paul McGrath for all I care! We have no way of knowing so I am not going to do something as stupid and dangerous as jump to conclusions and start naming individuals. I'll leave that type of carry on for the likes of Dixie. On that note why has no one on this site condemned Dixie for implicating someone as being a one time member of the IRA? I thought you lot claim to "remain true to your republican principles" and yet not one comment about Dixie's disgraceful antics?

Anyway Frankie a while ago I explained that;

"That last sentence suggests to me that you feel that those who DID involve themselves in the struggle DID CARE about where a person resided in Belfast and by extension of the demographic makeup of Belfast had issue with what type of religious or political allegiance they may have held."

And you responded by saying;

"Mac when I was a pup, on Wednesday afternoons I watch catholic school kids throw stones at protestant school boy buses for no other reason than they were protestant."

Again you fail to grasp that when I talk about people involving themselves in the struggle, I am not talking about the bunch of school kids you saw causing trouble with the buses that day, I am talking about those who joined the Irish Republican Army and the ideas and principles that they held. At this point I'm going to ask for a little help. I reckon that if I say it is white, Frankie is content to argue that it is black. Luckily for me quite a few people here claim to be republican so why don't they explain my point that anti-sectarianism is ingrained in Irish republican ideology. I am slightly perturbed that no one else has involved themselves up to this point, especially after a couple of individuals have hinted at being ex-volunteers.

you also ask;

"Mac why didn't members of PSF (or repubicans ) on Wednesday afternoons stand at the top of Estoril Park and prevent kids from getting criminal records, from getting 'sucked' into what some republicans knew then was a very dirty, murky world?. From stopping them throwing stones at protestant kids on their way home from school?"

I imagine they were busy fighting a war at the time, and it was not their job to baby sit a number of sectarian youngsters. In saying that it might be better to ask one of the people on this site who were members of PSF at the time, so again I will let them answer you.

I never replied to your remarks about why I believe Sinn Fein to be superb strategists because I have outlined this already ad nauseam. I have also given examples. Go read my comments.

Billy Brooks,
No need for derogatory terms. Yes, loyalists were involved in a loyalist campaign during the troubles. No, Republicanism does not espouse sectarianism.

Mac Tíre said...

Tain Bo,
I think it is commendable that you are trying to bring this thread back on track as some here have moved the proverbial goal posts so often with their lines of questioning and comments that we have lost sight of the original discussion. I suppose this is the nature of this type of discussion so I can't complain.

Tain bo, you and others have made repeated claims that Sinn Féin are controlled by MI5. Since I have been answering the bulk of the questions on here, let me put something to everyone just for a change. I suggest to you all that it is the dissident republican groups that are controlled by MI5. Why since 1996 have all the physical force republican groups combined been so limited in their success? A breakdown of the collective amount of enemy kills collected by these groups is;
- 2 British army
- 2 PSNI
- 1 Prison Guard

They are also responsible for 40+ civilian deaths. How can this be the case? No really, how can this be the case? Since certain physical force groups also have members overlap into political groups then it is safe to assume that there are also MI5 agents in these groups. Then we have people like Dixie willing to implicate people on an open forum?

Sean Bres,
The sole thing that you believe the Societies has delivered is;

"the Societies have helped secure for the people of West Belfast a future for the republican tradition."

But I ask you this, what about the people of West Belfast who are not republicans? Sinn Féin deliver on the day to day issues that matter most to people. Not only is this delivery for the people but it also buys into Sinn Féin's united Ireland strategy, which will see Sinn Féin pushing for support amongst people who do not identify themselves as being republican. We will never get a yes vote over the line in any future votes on Independence if we are to rely on traditional republicans alone, so we need non republicans to buy into Sinn Féin and in turn into their policy of a united Ireland.

You also said;

"I put more stock in and value as far more worthy the young lads from the like of the Joe McGaritty Society in Carickmore power-washing, de-weeding and cutting the grass in the Garden of Remembrance for the Easter Monday commemoration free of charge than anything your British money can ever account for in West Belfast or wherever."

Firstly it isn't 'British money,' the people in the north pay taxes and are entitled to see the benefits of this. Secondly, I think most right thinking people would prefer a children's hospital over a well kept Garden of Remembrance.

In short, the Societies offer the people nothing.

grouch said...

anyone who calls brendan hughes a tout should get their head kicked in.

Gerard. said...

Wow mac tire....slow down there!

An Albert st environment scheme? Did someone steal the money and run with it. There's no change to Albert st the Sinn Fein/PSNI scheme that lasted until the new year that had a fancy name is all done and the people of the area left the same after that as they were before.

Sinn Fein did not secure the new children's hospital, it would have come about in any case and I distinctly remember front page of the andersonstown news with a head line that locals were sitting at home while country men were in the jobs, local jobs for local workers I think the head line was.

The willow bank park has been there a long time and now it's to be another pitch. This is to use up the pitch money all 175 million of it that was originally the brain child of tim Attwod? They couldn't upgrade the park for kids to play the shinners had to grab what little space there was and make it a pitch, no consultation on that as I recall...

And what did they do with dunville, oh yes another pitch via the brain power of tim Attwood again. Oh let's not forget the new railings, big deal.

And st comgalls, that's to be a tourist centre I hear. That ought to bring in lots of employment for one or two tour guides, many of whom are ex prisoners, but that's about the height of it.

As far as I can tell the only major contribution to the west from Sinn Fein brain power was the falls swim centre courtesy of Fra mc cann, but now there's a situation where many of the leisure centres could be under threat due to privatisation.

For a major party and one of the richest on the whole island Sinn Fein has done sweet FA for west Belfast except leave us along with Derry at the bottom of the poverty league.

David Higgins said...

Mac Tire,
The reason i didn't condemn Dixie is simple, i didn't think he was out of line. When the leadership decomissioned, then disbanded the Army, they lost all rights to call people touts etc how can you be disloyal to an organization that doesn't exist? Regarding McGuiness the man advocates that the public inform on armed republicans to the British state, regardless of what you think of these groups, you can't get more anti-republican. The man denies his past all the while administrating British rule. He is fair game in my opinion.
As far as republican ideology goes it is obviously anti-sectarian but you can't deny some provo activities were sectarian and we must address that if we are ever to have understanding with our unionist neighbours. As i have said before i prefer it with you here you rustle feathers which is always fun, however you do seem strangely reluctant to ever criticize s.f which i find weird. All political groups have their differences, which is healthy but my problem with s.f supporters is the are never critical of the leadership, not in public anyway , thats not right, you are either mind controlled or a closed shop mentality either way it is dangerous. Well that's my lot, all the best with your many debates on here your fingers must be killing you!

Tain Bo said...

Mac Tire,

the goal posts tend to migrate though usually return it is like a thread a month or so past where Woflsbane was bombarded so don’t feel like it is personal.

Dixie is not implicating anyone but merely repeating what the dogs on the streets have pissed out on every corner. That detracts from your argument rather than giving it traction. If there is a point to be made and it is already public knowledge then it is fair game.
On the other hand if someone sends in a comment that is suspect it would not be posted unless the person making the claim was identified and prepared to stand over it.
Then of course there are legal reasons to deal with the Quill tries to maintain an open forum that does not mean it is in the business of outing people.

Recently the Quill carried a series of articles on militant dissidents and why they should pack it in. Some, where unhinged as the articles originally appeared in a unionist publication which lead to speculation that it was some pro-Brit or unionist backed conspiracy which is a far cry from the truth. That I can personally stand over there was no conspiracy only very experienced individuals calling for a halt.

Are they infiltrated without hesitation a resounding yes? You would not have to be highly educated to draw that conclusion.
The evidence to the extent of which the RM was infiltrated would be the first clue.
The advancement in technology is dumbfounding but they still prefer the old proven method of turning people on the lower end of the spectrum as informers and on the higher end as agents of influence.

The trick is call for reinforcements surely some of your friends in SF would arrive here and ease the strain on you we mumble and grumble and when a Shin shows up we jump about and rattle on our cages. As I said SF rarely grace us so my friend you are now the official Shin on the Quill.

To your credit you hold your ground and present readable arguments. Pace yourself, there is no time limit or expectations that anyone has to respond right away or at all so don’t feel burdened.

Mac Tíre said...

Gerard that money for albert street has allowed for houses to be built on the back path, which was a major antisocial hotspot and is currently being changed into homes for locals. It also blocked off that entry/corner in Albert street which brings you through towards marchioness street (mcdonnell street maybe???) and this was the main hangout area of the local anti social element. It paid for the erection of entry gates to deter criminals from accessing entry ways to get up to no good. Of course this project is ongoing and there are still further changes to come. If you are from the area you know what I'm talking about, if you're not from the area then you don't know what you're talking about.

Also remember that Sinn Fein secured the removal of the flats in ross road, where bap mcgreevy was murdered, and the erection of new houses in its place. They had to fight the SDLP and Margaret Ritchie every step of the way for this but their hard work paid off in the end. The new design of Ross Road has blocked off further areas that the hoods used to cut through and hang out.

Sinn Fein delivered all of the above and more. I'd be keen to know what you have done for your area? A recurring theme amongst dissenting republicans is a constant glass half empty attitude. They can't stand Sinn Fein's success. This can't be healthy!

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire,
I have given you time to read the Clare Dwyer piece from the European journal of probation.
I take it now that you have read it you realise how ridiculous it was for leaders of an organisation to leave the members criminalised!
The article containsmany extracts and examples of ex prisoners saying what I am saying.
It also contains a occlusion from two other academics stating.
' politically motivated prisoners who resisted the criminalisation policy during their incarceration and benefited from the de facto recognition of early release face a seemingly continuing battle to resist criminalisation on the outside.'

The legislation in Article 2 (4) which you sneering commented on (easy when you've never spent a second in prison)
would pose serious issues to anyone concerned with human rights and given the fact you claim to be a Republican I should have imagined it would have mildy concerned up but it didn't.
If anything you were flippant!
A discrimination case by two ex prisoners was upheld on that piece of legislation .
People don't have to declare anything on interviews but if you don't declare being in prison you can be sacked and the whole point of 'thought' legislation is, if you don't adhere to 'The Process' you can be excluded from employment anyway without a conviction.

Mac Tire
You don't have to 'come on Fionnuala' as if I need your endorsement.
You have a TV and I trust you can comprehend logic, Paul Maskey is not politically astute in fact astute and Paul appear to be continually going in opposite directions.

Ah the funding! The piece de resistance of Sinn Fein,
Leave out Clonard boxing club my partner was one of the people who started that club.
The money was already awarded by the council in keeping with a new promotion policy for amateur boxers.
The donkey work was done in that Club years before Sinn Fein came along and that funding would have been secured with or without them.
The rest of your list proves nothing!! There is a big fat pot of gold in Europe and all they have to do is wag their tails to get it.
Millions and millions of pounds poured in here to uphold a precarious peace!
Poverty is rife in Westbelfast. Child poverty the second highest in the 'U.K.'
The people who voted Adams in and put him on the road to his political career have nothing.
Whst has he? A quite wealthy lifestyle and loads of equally wealthy Sinn Fein friends.
What happened to all the health promises under de Brun? Fund holding would stop, it increased.
Hartley sat on committees on the Royal that voted for ward closures.
Privatisation is going on under their nose and they don't utter a word.

They could have bailed the people out with the Northern Bank money but in true , 'ourselves alone mode' the spent it on lavish lifestyles.
If they impress you! Well good for you,but don't expect anyone especially people who suffered through their treachery to join you.

frankie said...

Again you fail to grasp that when I talk about people involving themselves in the struggle, I am not talking about the bunch of school kids you saw causing trouble with the buses that day, I am talking about those who joined the Irish Republican Army and the ideas and principles that they held.

Mac, I'm talking about the same kids. Most of who didn't become politicaly aware until they where in the H-blocks, Crumlin Road or other. It wasn't just 'one day'. It happened on a regually basis..

You said this Mac when trying to explain away why PSF didn't stop the sectarianism at the top of Estoril Park when I was a pup...

I imagine they were busy fighting a war at the time, and it was not their job to baby sit a number of sectarian youngsters. In saying that it might be better to ask one of the people on this site who were members of PSF at the time, so again I will let them answer you.

And here was me thinking all along that it was guerrilla armies like the PIRA, INLA etc who were at war when all along it was PSF. It's not PSFs job to 'baby sit' sectarian youngsters? Today Mac in the very same area PSF are very public about telling youngsters not to get involved with sectarianism. And not to throw stones. I have tried on lots of occassions to get from the PSF leadership down answers to the questions I'm asking you Mac. But the refuse to reply.

frankie said...

On that note why has no one on this site condemned Dixie for implicating someone as being a one time member of the IRA?

Probably because Martin McGuiness has admitted he was a member of the PIRA. Go and ask Martin yourself if he ever was a member if you don't believe me. What is being called into question is the time he said he was a volunteer.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Apologies for typos operating with one eye lol
Maybe I should ask Sinn Fein to push some money in the direction of the eye clinic.
Gerry was able to get his rear region sorted in America, rich benefactors and not a Streisand in sight.
Wonder do all those people know he was never in the 'ra'?
Don't think they'd have much time for a leader who failed to join up himself!

gerard hodgins said...

mac tire
you appear to have a hard on for Dixie.

walk in his shoes and then call him out on his opinions/comments.

just a thought.

Gerard. said...

Mac tire, I'm not a dissident what ever that is. Can it ask you who is building the new homes? It cannot be NIHE, the last houses they built were cluain Mor after that any new homes that were built were built by housing associations, so I take it these new homes will be built by housing associations at higher rents. The NIHE its self is to be done away with and five new super housing associations created, yet it was the creation of the housing executive that got ordinary nationalists a fair crack of the houses and equal housing for all. This body is to be done away with under a unionist minister on Sinn feins watch .. It's good the houses are coming but on their own won't solve the anti social element that has taken hold, nor will entry gates . The lower falls is in desperate need to get rid of the anti social element there. You don't need to live there to know about it, it's been head line news for a long time. It's so bad even the social workers in the Maureen Sheehan had to move into the city centre due to the anti social element.

I don't agree that the richest political party on the island of Ireland can ask constituents what they've done for an area. That's what we pay taxes for, not to pay taxes and then do it ourselves, that's what political party's are paid for.

Sinn Fein hasn't delivered anything that progress would not have delivered, pointing the finger at others only works for so long. Look at pat Sheehan, I can honestly say the one and only time I ever saw him in the media I didn't even know who he was. Co opted in and never given a vote, he has simply sat back and collected the dough.

sean bres said...

I suggest someone loan this lad a copy of Kevin Bean's 'New Politics of Sinn Fein' which breaks down the funding issue and how it was used as a strategic tool by the Brits to suck the leadership into their arrangements. As for the Societies offering nothing only time will tell on that score but I have full faith that the republican movement can eventually be reorganised using this strategy, learn from the mistakes of the last 20 odd years and more and put in place the structures for a new generation to see this country achieve reunification. I see the growth of our movement, which continues to exceed our expectations, and the politics and approach which it offers as something that has deep resonance with the majority of people in this country and not just republicans in the narrow sense of the word. Times on our side, it's about reorganising now and recovering from the disastrous failure of the previous republican leadership who have become Quisling's of the British state and are at its beck and call. McGuinness was apparently overheard telling a Protestant minister with tears in his eyes that the sorriest thing he ever did was join the IRA. What a load of bollocks, you's can keep the sell-out bastard - who the fuck would want him?

Mac Tíre said...

"They could have bailed the people out with the Northern Bank money but in true , 'ourselves alone mode' the spent it on lavish lifestyles."

Really Fionnuala? You may or may not have been a competant soldier (I have no idea) but I can say with authority after the statement above that you have all the political awareness of a turnip!

Now I know that you are going to come back all affronted by this but at this stage of the game I couldn't care less. You have been flippant, rude, dismissive, condescending and patronising to me at different stages on this thread and I have tried not to respond in kind to afford you a bit of respect because you are an ex-volunteer, and also because it never bothered me. You seem to think that because you were active and an ex POW that you now have a soap box to preach from or are in some way enlightened. Being a soldier does not equate to you having automatic 'political kudos' as you would say Fionnuala.

You also said;

"I have given you time to read the Clare Dwyer piece from the European journal of probation"

Well that's aweful good of you, but I haven't got round to it yet. If I have time tomorrow I might give it a read and get back to you.

I'm going to take Tain bo's advice though and start pacing myself...if it can be helped!!!

Oiche mhaith

Mac Tíre said...

Gerard hodgins,
Using your logic it would appear that everyone on this site has a hard on for me, to also borrow your turn of phrase.

Also you say;

"walk in his shoes and then call him out on his opinions/comments"

This doesn't wash with me! From now on if you say something on this site that I think to be wrong I'm holding you to account for it. You, dixie, fionnuala and anthony are not untouchable on this place Gerard. I have tried to treat everyone with respect here and stick to my own arguments but from now on i will only give as much respect to individuals as i receive from them.

grouch said...

id rather be a turnip than a brussel sprout

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire
Affronted, I wouldn't think so would you?
Are you now saying the Brits didn't buy them off with the Northern Bank money?
Where did they get their millions then? Maybe handicrafts just like John White?
They own more property on the road than Northern properties, oh I forgot they own that too.
A new debt collecting service set up by a couple of your MLA's to collect rents on their behalf! Proud of all that as well are you?
I couldn't care if you read the article or not. You wanted the evidence for what I said, that's part of it.
I'll end my conversation with you on grouch's wise note better a turnip than a Brussel sprout.
But then your party are advocating we all become Brussels.

Max Headroom said...

Mac Tíre

If Brendan Hugh’s narrative on his past ’was his truth’ and not ’the truth’, and if Dolores Price’s truth was ’her truth’ and not ‘the truth’ and if Anthony McIntyre’s truth was ’his truth’ and not ’the truth’ and if Richard O’Rawe’s truth was ’his truth’ and not ’the truth’ etc etc etc ……

Then do you apply your same formula of thinking to Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness,Danny Morrison and Gerry Kelly?

If you do, do you believe their narrative is ‘their truth’ or ‘the truth‘?

If you believe that Adam's & McGuinness's, Morrison's, Kelly's narratives is ‘their truth‘, then are you accusing your party leadership as being confused,lying, misguiding, non-creditable and worthy of contempt and disbelief?


Do you believe what your party leadership are saying is ‘the truth‘ as in Gospel so to speak?

If yes are you accusing the first 4 mentioned above as being confused,lying, misguiding, non-creditable and worthy of contempt and disbelief?


Do you believe that they are ALL being confused,lying, misguiding, non-creditable and worthy of contempt and disbelief?

Both parties/groups have conflicting accounts over the truth and they can not all be right or telling the truth which means you can not have it both ways and any attempt to do so would indicate that you are a very confused individual unless of course you go for the last option, so which one fits your opinions?

Ps: At no time during my entire life was I ever a ‘Volunteer’ in any army and I want to make that point clear so that I don't give anyone the wrong impression.

the watcher said...

I have been an avid reader/observer on this and other sites for quite a while now. I chose not to comment on any of the sites as I do not claim to be as politically astute nor have I the background in the RM as most on here do albeit as members of PIRA/INLA or PSF/RSF. What I do have and I hope what is the common denominator here is the desire for a 32 county socalist Ireland.
The reason I will comment on this thread is I believe it started with debate, good honest debate which can be nothing but healthy in the present fractionalised, marginalised climate of Republicanism. unfortunately it transended into name calling and one upmanship which will be consumed with glee by the opponents and detractors of Republicanism.
From a personal point of view I am of the opinion that ALL ex volunteers be they now PSF or not and may have taken a seperate path have my admiration. I refuse to condemn anyone for the political path they have chosen unless they use it for the their own gain and not that of the RM.
I am dismayed that the RM is so fractured that it seems to be fighting a war within itself playing right into Loyalist/British hands.
I hope in further threads to express my views on items I either agree or disagree with but for now will educate myself further into the politics of the post modern troubles era.
And just for your information I am from West Belfast and grew up in the 80's and 90's so I do believe I can have a constructive opinion but I am the type of person who will debate or express opinions that I can't back 100%.
Finally sorry for the long winded explanation.

Niall said...

More whinging...what if all the ex-IRA volunteers got together and did something about Adams, McGuinness, Hartely, Gibney, Kelly and of course Morrison and a few wouldn't that be something?

Henry JoY said...

Vincent Browne in today's Irish Times, , reflecting on the last twenty years;

"The Belfast Agreement was a remarkable outcome, for it involved the capitulation of nationalism and republicanism to the tenets of unionism – an acceptance of the unionist credo that only with the consent of a majority of the people in Northern Ireland could the constitutional status of Northern Ireland be changed. So skilled was the spin on this capitulation that not alone did nationalists buy it but so too did unionists, which has accounted in part for the persistence of virulent sectarianism."

marty said...

Mac Tire your confuse strategy and even pragmatism with being led by the nose and eyes wide open in the case of those who buy the spiel passed down through your leadership by agents,indeed the common thread throughout quisling $inn £eind is that at the "leadership" level agents abound,the only successful strategy surrounding quisling $inn £eind is that of Kitsons ie., the destruction of the republican movement, I and many others recall the damage Donaldson and others done,the events around 86 now make sense to most who were left confused,as to why your president for life would cause another unnecessary split in the republican movement , yes alongside the deliberate machinations in allowing brave men to die on hunger strike for political gain,or do you like your cronies call Richard O Rawe a liar also? I to could like so many others here could talk ad nauseam about the treachery of your quisling cronies, suffice to say it has been mostly documented, however I address you as someone I suspect who has popped up on the TPQ just prior to election time as either someone trying to attract the attention of the party bosses or a party hack either way I,d hazard a fair bet your time spent here is not given freely. I,m inclined to agree with the watchers comments here, a healthy debate is refreshing and mulling over points of view no matter how unpalatable is the way to go,but engaging with quisling $inn £einders is a bit to much even for my stomach, the treachery and deceit from your quisling leadership leaves me numb,again I will ask you to answer me just how many jobs those favourites of your will create for the residents of west Belfast long term ?, if there is one thing that is certain its that your cronies would have united two people from diametrically opposite positions ie., James Connolly and Norman Tebbit.

frankie said...

Mac, your comment @ 10:19 PM, April 15, 2014. Was it for real or a piece of satire...? It was funny last night and even funnier reading it again..

This doesn't wash with me! From now on if you say something on this site that I think to be wrong I'm holding you to account for dixie, fionnuala and anthony are not untouchable on this place Gerard.

Max Headroom said...

Apologies to the friends and families of Darkie and Dolours for spelling their names wrong in my above post.

Fionnuala Perry said...

The untouchables and there's me thinking that name only applied to the shinners who escaped the Assets Recovery Agency!

Mac Tíre said...

Marty, you say;

"however I address you as someone I suspect who has popped up on the TPQ just prior to election time as either someone trying to attract the attention of the party bosses or a party hack either way I,d hazard a fair bet your time spent here is not given freely."

I am not sure I completely understand what you mean but i'll attempt an answer none the less. With the greatest of respect to this blog i'm not too sure the party bosses would frequent it all that often! Trying to free Ireland is a full time job after all. And my time here is given freely and unknown to the party, who I imagine would probably think I was wasting my time. And if there are any members reading this then they are probably scratching their heads and asking who Mac Tire is. Anyway you are right, there are elections coming up and hard work to do so i shall bow out of the quill until after the elections. This should put your mind at ease. See ya'll after the elections!

When I come back I want you to know what you're talking about!

frankie said...

According to Mac: Anthony, Gerard, Dixie and yourself are the untouchables (unless you dissent any more then you'll be put in the naughty corner) . And PSF were at war when I was pup and thats why they couldn't stop interface sectarian violence in Ardoyne mid-late 80's.

Fionnula you were once a female volunteer. This is how PSF commemorated the founding of Cumann na mBann .

It’s just bad PR. For a party trying to convince voters that they don’t have gunmen, Garda killers and bank robbers in their midst, they do a good job of reminding people that they actually do.

Who is in charge of PR within PSF today? Young girls in miliary uniform holding replica weapons!!!!! Wouldn't have been better to not have the quasi-paramilitary display and invite former female IRA volunteers to give their experiences and maybe invite a few historians aswell.

Max Headroom said...

Sinn £ein are quite happy to forget the fact that Cumann na mBann were anti Treaty republicans during the civil war and it's reasonable to assume those brave women would've been on opposing sides with Sinn Fein today.

The clue to their bending was always in the name of 'Provisional' Sinn £ein which leaves them open to become something entirely different if time or circumstance dictates.

frankie said...

Frankie, When I come back I want you to know what you're talking about!

What I said was this, Gerry Adams has been proven to have lied over his past. Then why should I believe him to be telling the truth over his none denial with the PIRA? And for someone who trys to distance himself and PSF from armed republicanism they (PSF) make a lot of money selling IRA t-shirts. How much of the money made from selling IRA memorabilia goes to the volunteers who fought in the conflict? Do PSF have a copy write on Irish Republicanism Mac (I think, they think they have)..

I also questioned Martin McGuinness's narrative about him leaving the PIRA mid 70's. I reckon he stepped down sometime around Brian Arthurs penned his comm.

With the greatest of respect to this blog i'm not too sure the party bosses would frequent it all that often!

Mac, click here and here*.. They pay very close attention to this blog. And its not just your party leadership who peek...

(*While Danny is no longer a member. He was at one time head of PR for the PRM. )

Maybe you are correct about why PSF didn't have time to 'baby sit' youngsters because PSF were at war. But some how Mac I doubt your narrative.

Tain Bo said...


I hope you are laughing I am not sure which was funnier, I will hold you accountable or the when I come back.

As for babysitting that can be put to sleep easily as back then it was encouraged.

Tain Bo said...

The Watcher,

I agree with much of what you say though it is par for the course more so on touchy threads.
It is just like an old Blacksmiths shop with an article being hammered out on an anvil sparks will fly as it heats and cools whether issues get smoothed out or not is not always guaranteed but the idea is to try and forge something republicans can identify with.

The one thing we can identify with is a united Ireland though that path has once again been sealed off so we are at a point of deconstructing how we ended up further away from unity.

If we fail to be critical of republicanism and its fatal flaws and only speak of it in positive terms we would be fooling ourselves.

You say you have been sitting on the sidelines for a while now then you should know that there is no experience level required to post an opinion.

I would say the main reason people land here is the educational aspect although we might get rowdy and jab it is just the nature of the beast and with politics that is unpredictable.

Anyway, welcome to the Quill and don’t mind the regulars we bark and make a lot of noise at times apart from that my only complaint is I can barely keep up with the volume of articles.

Mac Tíre said...

Frankie you really are the gift that keeps on giving!

You wrote;

"Mac, click here and here*.. They pay very close attention to this blog. And its not just your party leadership who peek.."

Carlsberg don't help spread the word of Gerry Adams and Danny Morrison...but if they did you'd be their PRO!

If you had brains you'd be dangerous!

I advise everyone to read the links Frankie has put up, they are both very interesting articles.

Will Frankie delete that comment with the links? Won't he? Who knows? Exciting times!

Sorry Marty I really am away this time, it's just so tough with people like Frankie around! Oh and remember folks votail Sinn Fein on 22nd May! See yas all in a month or so!

Adh mor

David Higgins said...

Watcher, well said, no matter the beliefs or problems that face republicanism, and there are plenty, the divisions that arise when disagreements turn nasty, suit only the Brits. I think maybe anti-treaty republicans need to accept that o lot of people support s.f. Personally I have had it with the capitulations, stomach churning hypocrisy that s.f call strategy but there are those like Mac Tire who believe s.f will bring the unification of the homeland and we should be able to discuss these topics without the acrimony, otherwise it's pointless.

frankie said...

Tain bo, maybe we're all going to be held accountable when Mac Tire returns.. He maybe able to string words together better than Cllr McIvor but he talks as much gibberish.

(Want to know what I think newbies to PSF must have a full frontal lobotomy )..

sean bres said...

Looks to me like this 'Mac Tire' has been exposed for what he is, fair dues Marty. If he had any confidence in his position or the politics of Sinn Fein he wouldn't be hiding behind his moniker. Probably in the pay of the party as suggested, sent here to stir things up. Once exposed for the paid hack he no doubt is he's done a runner. Good fucking riddance for as Marty said earlier Sinn Fein and their apologists would sicken your shite listening to them justify treachery

frankie said...

Will Frankie delete that comment with the links? Won't he? Who knows? Exciting times!

The short answer is no I'm deleting nothing.

@ Daivd, what you and watcher said are fair points but when members of PSF refuse to accept the evidence in front of them, then it becomes tiresome.. At no point in this 'debate' has Mac Tire answered any question put him. He has blurted out PSF policy, fobbed issues put to him and then called rank and said he was holding people to account.. So much for PSF and free thought. I have no doubt there are some republicans left in PSF but today PSF are not an Irish republican sociaist party. And unfotunatly PSF wont come on here and explain there position in a coherent way (probably because they can't and they know ' the untouchables' are unbribable as Brendan Hughes was, who refused every brown evenlope that was offered to him)..

David Higgins said...

Mac Tire,
What was the point in getting personal in your last comment there?, Frankie to me comes across as an intelligent, opinionated, logical man, so what was the "if you had brains you'd be dangerous" shite about?

marty said...

David Higgins like him or agree with him or not Frankie at least writes his own comments,unlike MacTires head honcho Gerry Itwasntme Q$£ president for life, I often wonder does all the spiel have to be run through the suits in Whitehall,

Tain Bo said...


I couldn’t be arsed, the novelty wore off fast, but I still couldn’t stop laughing!
Strange attitude as you are one of the most neutral posters here.
I thought your banter with Mac was friendly but true to SF form he complained about the banter going off thread and then he goes really off.

Talk about moving the goal posts he went and changed fields. Maybe that is the plan, implement gibberish agenda number two and hope to get a dedicated page.
As I said the novelty wore off fast, I wonder whom SF is accountable too, oh, that’s right, the British.

To be honest whether he returns or not is off little interest. I doubt he expected the volume of comments would land on his doorstep that might explain his frustration. Though fair play to him for attempting to answer perhaps his first clue should have been that more seasoned SF members or supporters prefer to read rather than comment I did inform him SF are a rare species on this sight.

No matter, all who got the yellow card warning will certainly be waiting the return and the guaranteed Red cards.
Me, I am accountable for where my specs are usually on top of my head.

Par for the course mate, I have always find your comments interesting along with the links you provide. With a bit of luck the new sheriff in town will round up a posse and return as there are a lot of red cards to be handed out.

gerard hodgins said...

looks like there is a new sheriff in town and he's gonna hold us all to account .......

Provocop!..... coming to websites which question the royal ulster provo orthodoxy...

watch out:YOU HAVE ALL BEEN WARNED! ..... you will be held to account.

mac tire comrade,
that gave me few laughs, reminded me of the old days in gaol when screws would come off with such garbage trying to intimidate us.

grouch said...

welcome to this site, i felt like you at the beginning but i bitch fight all the time now! beir bua.
i cudnt finish reading the adams leargas blog. fuc*ing torture. as for the other one i lasted five words.

the watcher said...

Thanks guys for the welcome. As I said I don't feel qualified as yet to immerse myself to the ins and outs of what has happened to the RM as yet but am hoping to educate myself and feel secure enough to defend my logic and words. Just for the record I have lived away from home for quite a few years now and it is the latest developments within the RM which I cannot comprehend, but am trying to.
Please don't think either that I'm completely ignorant as I have family and friends who were volunteers, blanketmen and women and I believe I am politically aware but I am not that arrogant as to believe I know better than a lot of you people on this blog.
My first comment on here is not even constructive as such but I am very annoyed that MacT has told certain contributors that they will be held accountable to him, how arrogant and purile, certainly debate and argue but who are you to hold anyone accountable for their thoughts and opinions. Also please MacT stop with the old MH rantings of who did what during 'the war' be it take up arms, sell AP or Easter lillies. It was enough for some people not to tell tales on friends neighbours and relations under extreme duress.
Rant over,again thanks for the welcome and I have to say I enjoy the comments and wit on here, Marty and grouch come up with some classics.

Mac Tíre said...

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."
- Al Pacino



1. required or expected to justify actions or decisions; responsible.

2. able to be explained or understood.

We are all accountable for our words on here. People have been trying to hold me to account on this site for every single thing I have written and indeed I am being held to account now ironically enough! I have responded and justified my actions and decisions from then to now and look forward to doing so in the future. The point I make is that no one should get a free ride. I have not called people on certain points in the past because of who they were but now I will.

P.S dry your eyes the lot of you! I often wonder why anti sinn fein republicans are so touchy on the whole? Is it because they are jealous off Sinn Fein? Anyway I will be back after the elections to discuss our success.

Tiocfaidh ar la!!!

Your friend,
Sheriff Mac Tíre

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tiresome ,
Remember any success you get is from those who pockets are well lined or your doorstep orange card agenda.
The great Sinn Fein delusion rolls on and on and on and on.
Dreary and strategic less they depend on old past endeavours and peace at any price to sell themselves.
Forty two years of nothingness from your great leader, you lot really are Mac Tiresome.

marty said...

I have discovered a very effective way of disuading quisling $inn £eind carpetbaggers from approaching my home, I have erected a large poster Norman Tebbit in my front window ,,no words needed..Mac Tire and cronies take heed..

Henry JoY said...

Hilarious and clever Marty ... I want an Norman Tebbitt poster ... and an 'I love Norman' badge too ( lol).

frankie said...

Mac now you've had a few hours to digest the links I asked you to look at can you start to see how silly they both made themselves look..?

Your party leader say's this "I was not involved in any part of it. I instructed my solicitor to contact the PSNI and to make it clear to them that I am available to meet at any time on this issue."

Your party leader originally said he was in prison at the time of Jean McConvilles death. Check it out yourself. If you have a problem finding the info, come back and I'll provide the link. Why does he need a solicitor?

He then writes "the false accusations and spurious claims of a small number of embittered former republican activists who are hostile to the Sinn Féin peace strategy "

Can you tell Gerry I'm not a former republican activist who is hostile to the SF peace strategy. Tell him frankie doesn't understand their strategy. The GFA was meant to usher in a period where everyone was loved up. All I can see is more oxymorons getting built. In fact there are more today than at anytime during the conflict. All that has done is create a climate of more hate, bitterness and kept sectarianism alive in the 21st century. Tell him I was under the impression SF stood for a socialist democratic republic and they would never, never, never take seats on the hill...In fact the DFM said the same thing in 1986.

Then he say's this about the Belfast Project "It is no co-incidence that those the project spoke to are all oppositional voices. This project was flawed and biased from the outset. It was an entirely bogus, shoddy and self-serving effort. It was not a genuine or serious or ethically based history project."

I think Gerry got his book 'Hope & History" mixed up with the transcripts. If you haven't read it yet Mac, read it. That book is deffo "entirely bogus, shoddy and self-serving effort and it isn't a genuine or serious or ethically based history project" Ask him this aswell how many transcripts of the Belfast Project has he read? I know Anthony has read it cover to cover. I'm know Ed Moloney has read it. I also know Wilson MacArthur has read the Loyalist transcripts.. I know Judge Young has read the transcripts cover to cover who said this after reading it...

“[These materials] are of interest – valid academic interests. They’re of interest to the historian, sociologist, the student of religion, the student of youth movements, academics who are interested in insurgency and counterinsurgency, in terrorism and counterterrorism. They’re of interest to those who study the history of religions.”

He then cites Professor Thomas Hachey from Boston College in his piece.. A college that tumbled like a house of cards the moment things got heavy?. He also used the News letter to get his opinion out. That's the same Loyalist/Unionist paper where some of the untouchables voiced their opinions about todays PFRs and they got laughed for talking to Gemma Murray by the same people you are trying to defend...Didn't see many complain about Gerry talking to Gemma Murray.

Your leader finishes by saying this "The issue of the past does need to be dealt with. Sinn Féin is committed to doing this. We want to bring closure to victims and their families. That is why we have argued for an independent, international, truth recovery process. However, if this cannot be agreed then we are seeking the implementation of the Haass compromise proposals. These include the right of families to choose whether to pursue legal action or to seek maximum truth recovery."

Gerry Adams practise what you preach and start telling the truth....

I'm going to let Willie Frazer have the last laugh.

Mac Tíre said...

OK Frankie i'll tell Gerry next time I see him.

You said;
"Mac now you've had a few hours to digest the links I asked you to look at can you start to see how silly they both made themselves look..?"

I thought the reason for your links was to illustrate that both men "pay very close attention to this blog" rather than to show me "how silly they both made themselves look." Gerry's page makes no reference to this site, Danny's may or may not allude to it (it makes reference to an incident that may have taken place here or elsewhere).

I'll give you a quote about the Belfast Project;

"The belfast project is, to date, responsible for the arrest of six individuals in connection with the murder of Jean McConville. Two of the women were arrested today and are currently being questioned, based on the testimony of one or more of those involved in the project."
- Mac Tíre

You have my permission to reproduce this.

frankie said...

Danny Morrison say's this Mac "Moloney never served a minute in jail but Mackers served a million, though he has since squandered every second on behalf of the British state, out to historically undermine our integrity, motivation, our choices and decisions, however difficult, complex and perplexing, but informed by the circumstances we found ourselves in."

I'm under no illusion that the leadership of the RM were very well informed by the circumstance they allowed themselves to be found in. Who was writing Gerry Adams speeches Danny? Who was proof reading PIRA statements before they got aired on TV or appeared in print? Gerry, yourself or some MI5 spook in a suit (I can prove the last point easy)? And as I said in my last post the book 'Hope & History" bears no semblance to the truth and is historically and factualy incorrect.

The title of the piece Mac Tire is "The making of a Tout". Why don't you get Danny to explain to you the Sandy lynch affiar. There were lots of 'touts's in the same room at the same time. Tell him that I reckon all he did when he penned 'The wrong man' was simply change the names to protect the innocent. Anthony McIntyre is on record stating that in no shape or form will he help any police force or corroborate anything they set in front of him. He said he is prepared to go to jail in order to protect what Judge Young called..."a bona fide academic exercise of considerable intellectual merit.”. Anthony isn't coming across as sounding anything like a canary.

Increasingly we discover that the Boston College Belfast Archive is not an innocent historical academic project but a politically-motivated venture.

Not very long ago Mac the Irish News called into question Anthony's ethics too. And the NUJ basically said "Sorry Anthony you don't have a case to answer and your ethics are beyond reproach".

So we have a Judge who didn't have a problem with Anthony's 'bona fides' and the NUJ found his ethics to be sound..But they are wrong and Danny & Gerry are right?????

Mac, grouch asked you are you on drugs and you said "Nope". May I suggest tonight that you try to get some weed, roll a joint and go to some park and sit under a tree and watch the sun set and have a toke and relfect on what you have said here over the past few days and more importantly take on board what republicans like the untouchables have done their best to explain......

grouch said...

watcher, the less u know the better, in fact im trying to forget most of the last 20 years and start anew. nobody gives a fuck how little or much anyone else knows or claims to know or not know. i mean look what the know alls and intellectuals and marxist bullshit artists ended up like (stormont troopers and leinster housekeepers). my politics now is to speak the truth and fuck the begrudgers. thats a lot of fucks. anthony, where is michael henry, i want him back.

Mac Tíre said...

you said; "(I can prove the last point easy)?"

Please do.

You also said; "Anthony McIntyre is on record stating that in no shape or form will he help any police force or corroborate anything they set in front of him."

It's a bit late for that now! He collected statements from ex-volunteers which are now being used by the Brits/MI5 to implicate others, six of whom have already been arrested! open you eyes man!

Then you say; "Judge Young called..."a bona fide academic exercise of considerable intellectual merit.""

WHAT? A JUDGE SAID IT? THEN IT MUST BE TRUE! Ask your mates here about the Diplock courts.

Tain Bo said...


you would fall under the more dangerous category of “free thinking” by asking rudimentary inquisitive questions your thoughts are automatically labeled anti-SF.

It is a case of “Ask not what SF can do for you but what you can do for SF.”
The autocrats prefer blind obedience and true to nature view free thought like all other despots as something to be eliminated and erased from view.

Contrary to what Mac believes not everyone is anti-SF to begin with I never was pro-SF or pro-any political party it all was alien to me that was until the election of Vol. Bobby Sands.
I never quite figured out why another prisoner or hunger striker was not in the running but instead Owen Carron was put forward.

It was questionable as to why they decided that a non prisoner was even on the cards as it looked to me that the emphasis shifted the spotlight away from the prison struggle.
I can remember watching the news of his election wondering what use or good that would be to the men dying in the H Blocks.

It was a chaotic time though looking back some of the bits of the puzzle seem to fit and paint a more accurate picture.
Whilst men were dying some were engineering a political future which would be unquestionable if only they had made it clear but considering everything was cloak and dagger naturally their narrative is full of holes.

Keep in mind when you are messing with the young man’s nut that details are too complicated and don’t expect an answer as party rhetoric is all the parrots keep repeating.

Anti-SF, anti-peace, touts the usual language of the bought and reformed party who defend their belief that they alone are right and the rest are all just embittered liars with an axe to grind.

Reminds me of the old Clash song “Give em enough rope.”

Tain Bo said...

Mac Tire,

there is a certain sense of freedom you and the party tends to bury the freedom of choice the ambitions of becoming the largest party on the island would be a testament to that.
No one dragged you in or for that matter back in you arrived here freely and post freely there is no undue pressure or greater unexplained force demanding you answer or post at all.

It has become apparently clear that you strive for dominance in yourself absorbed urinary territorial markings.
Indisputably you have not justified or remotely held your “actions” words “accountable.”

Even your latest post is another example where you commence with trying to sound humourous and in the same breath blaming posters for dragging you back in.
Then in the next line you decide that you will show your mastery of the English language and insist we somehow need a definition of a word implying that all must be stupid.

Followed by a direct demand that we all are accountable for what we say here a needless point, pointing out the obvious.
The pity me victim routine sounds familiar as you address the issues put to you with the extent of your knowledge and leave the rest blank.

This is understandable I have lifelong friends in SF who draw that same blank stare when asked a simple question recently Morrison solved the riddle by announcing that “details” are too complicated to follow.

Then you leave us with a footnote straining for a reaction with your mistaken belief that you can rile or wind up people here.
Certainly a bit of entertaining showmanship which displays a weakness in your bravado as you feel the need to inform us you are leaving then are drawn back in by some mystical force and insist you are leaving again.

There is no requirement to sign in or out no obligation to post or reply when you arrive here it is of your own freewill. You were almost out the gate when the Mickey Henry syndrome kicked in. Don’t complain about goal posts shifting when you decide to cheer from a completely different stadium. Your opinions are posted so the only visible bias you can claim is that others don’t adhere to the logic of a party and that bias is self made as you attempt to introduce SF rules in an open forum.

I will put it down to you being a polite well manner man. By the way this is rhetorical but you are wise as the party is steeped in rhetoric.
And with that I bid you farewell and good luck with the electioneering. Please, don’t feel the need to reply I say that “emphatically.” I wouldn’t want you to ignore the greater importance of collecting votes for a United Kingdom.

frankie said...

Mac one of your favourite things you like about the 500 million green backs getting invested into west belfast was the Casemount Park redevelopment........ mean while in Dublin...

At a heated meeting between the GAA, Aiken Promotions and Croke Park residents, it emerged that a written agreement in 2009, where no more than three concerts a year were to be held at the national stadium, was to be ignored.

The atticle goes on to say...A total of nine major events are to take place in Croke Park this year.The very same thing will happen in west Belfast.

These are the opinions of some of the residents.."People are really, really angry and irate," stated Mr Gates."We feel they have contempt for the residents and that Croke Park has broken agreement after agreement with the residents,"

Sounds very familar to the residents of west Belfast....

sean bres said...

Ask your mates here about Diplock Courts he says and all the while the party this ball-washing bastard subscribes to is in an administration that permits their continued use. Hypocrite

Mac Tíre said...

Tain bo you say;

"Then you leave us with a footnote straining for a reaction with your mistaken belief that you can rile or wind up people here."

Got you going anyway Tain bo....and long before the footnote. You broke like a plate!hahaha. Lighten up buddy.

You also accuse me of;

"Then in the next line you decide that you will show your mastery of the English language and insist we somehow need a definition of a word implying that all must be stupid."

I wasn't implying anyone was stupid, but the offence with which you and others took my use of the word implied that you didn't understand it and therefore needed a definition. I was demonstrating how we are all guilty of holding others to account on this site. It might even be argued that the majority of the articles on here are written with the intentions of holding someone to account! How very dare they write those dare they try to hold anyone to account....those pesky pensive quillers handing out red cards to morrison...adams et al. bla bla bla

"The pity me victim routine sounds familiar as you address the issues put to you with the extent of your knowledge and leave the rest blank."

A wise man once told me;

"To your credit you hold your ground and present readable arguments. Pace yourself, there is no time limit or expectations that anyone has to respond right away OR AT ALL so don’t feel burdened."

You obviously think he (you) was full of sh!t if you are now chastising me if I "leave the rest blank." That mask is beginning to slip, but it makes little odds, I had your number from the outset.

Also i wasn't playing the victim, I was excusing myself without saying as much, for not having the time or the will to answer every single question answered to me, especially the ones I had already answered or those asked 100 different ways.

Canvassing can wait, this is too much craic!

Your friendly neighbourhood shinner,
Mac Tíre

grouch said...

ask your own mates about the diplock courts and the special criminal court too, they seemed to have a knack of getting around them. and as i said before here in gest, but im deadly serious now - i hope ivor bell turns supergrass, that would be the end of your commonwealth wannabe party.

frankie said...

Thanks to the TPQ-ers who may not agree with everything I posted but for at least understanding my logic and points of view.. Tain bo.. I don't think I'm dangerous. I reckon if I was a member of PSF I'd be called a 'loose canon'.. As for ' Ask not what SF can do for you but what you can do for SF".. What I reckon I could do is make a better stab at defending and explaining PSF policy and version of history better than Cllr McIvor & Mac Tire have done..

Frankie, you said; "(I can prove the last point easy)?" Please do.

A review of Jonathan Powell's Great Hatred, Little Room TPQ . You should read it sometime. In the review Thomas 'Slab' Murphy is mentioned. And sometime soon he is going to be in court and if he can't explain his finances then what Danny Morrison said said at 8mins will happen (not by a British court but an Irish one). Somewhere in the news clips (could be part 3) Dennis Murray has a score board up similar to the one you put up about PFRs kill rate check it out. Seamus Malon reckons Fr Des Wilson penned some of Gerry Adams speeches .. Again ask Gerry Admas did Jonathan Powell' help pen his speeches...

It's a bit late for that now! He collected statements from ex-volunteers which are now being used by the Brits/MI5 to implicate others, six of whom have already been arrested! open you eyes man!

He asked former republican and loyalist volunteers would they be interested in telling their storties. They agreed because the republicans who were interviewed trusted Anthony and the loyalists trusted Wilson. And the British & Americans screwed them. Now for years Pat Finucanes family have asked for the truth about who killed him. Now Panorama made a documentary about it and Ken Barret admits to being the trigger man. David Lister and Hugh Jordan wrote a book about Johnny 71... Senior UDA figures, however, tell a very different story. They insist, almost without exception, that the man who 'put down' Pat Finucane was 'Davy'.... Why don't the HET or who ever ask messers Lister and Jordan for their notes on Davy? Why don't they ask Martin Dillion for his notes...

Gerry Adams is allowed to write books about the troubles. Gerry kelly can aswell. Gerry Bradley took his life shortly after his book was published.

I wasn't implying anyone was stupid

Apart from calling me brainless and saying Fionnuala is politically astute as a turnip..

I'll leave you to dwell on this from todays TPQ..

This is why academic initiatives like the Belfast Oral History Project are so invaluable for historians like me who may not have had an opportunity to interview key players – at whatever level – so that we can assemble all of the available evidence and draw accurate conclusions from it.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire
Gerry Adams implicated two IRA volunteers in police statements. The whole sad scenario is recorded in 'Man of war man of peace'
He named both of them as being two of the main Belfast bombers, both were killed weeks later.

Your party advocated that anyone who had any information on the disappeared to give it.
They have been running about rapping doors for years trying to piece things together, only to find all roads lead to Rome and Emperor Adams.

What were they going to do with the information that they were sending people to doors thirty and forty years later to ascertain ? Pass it on of course to their friends in the PSNI.

frankie said...

Correction... I posted a link that should have read 'not sourced by the TPQ'..

In was in reference to Mac Tire's comment asking me not to use either here or his party leaders blog as refernce points..

Mac Tíre said...

Fionnuala the first thing I did was check out who wrote that book you mentioned. I have no idea who David Sharrock is but I wouldn't trust Mark Devenport as far as I could throw him. I have heard this accusation before on this site. Is there any proof other than the word of a unionist journalist with an obvious agenda?

So let me get this right...The Sinn Fein president is mentioned by disgruntled colleagues as being involved in the Jean McConville debacle, so Sinn Fein go out and seek information relating to the case to pass on to the PSNI.

OR, is it more likely that;

A number of people with a hatred for Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein got together, concocted a story about Gerry being involved in jean mcconvilles murder, gave interviews to this effect and then these interviews subsequently fell into the hands of the brits, to the "dismay" of all involved.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire
Yes there is other proof a Priest read it and seen the names before Adams retracted.

Why are you on here arguing about people concocting stories you wouldn't have a clue what was real or concocted.

' Let me get this right' The likelihood of that happening is highly unlikely.

Anyway, thought you were out annoying your new voters, the people who like yourself discovered Republicanism five minutes ago.

grouch said...

mac tire, the fact u think like that proves uve been hanging around with pathological liars too long now. do u think people like hughes and bell and price were-are motivated by negative feelings for adams. cop urself on, but i fear u actually are copped on and know rightly what the leadership for life are like but that this is ur paid job.

frankie said...

Fionnuala the first thing I did was check out who wrote that book you mentioned. I have no idea who is David Sharrock

Now you do. And Gerry Adams implicated himself in the death of > Jean McConville by his lie about being locked up at the time. If he has an alibi...produce it. It's as simple as that..It's not complicated...

While I have your attention could you (would you) invite other members of PSF to TPQ...I really want to know if they are all as politically astute as yourself..

Mac Tíre said...

Better to have discovered republicanism five minutes ago than to have stopped being a republican years ago because of some deep personal hatred for Gerry Adams. This hatred has consumed you and it is now what defines you. From I arrived here I haven't heard you make one claim about what you are doing to advance the republican struggle. Instead all I have heard is anti-sinn fein and anti-gerry adams drivel.

I'd trust my 'new voters" before i'd trust grouch. He, despite his slabbering, is not a republican, as the quote from him below illustrates.

"i said before here in gest, but im deadly serious now - i hope ivor bell turns supergrass, that would be the end of your commonwealth wannabe party."

Mac Tíre said...

By the way Fionnuala you said;

"Yes there is other proof a Priest read it and seen the names before Adams retracted."

That isn't proof! Show me the piece of paper the priest allegedly read and that would constitute proof. Otherwise stop making wild accusations!

I only have one rule in life..."never trust a judge or priest."

David Higgins said...

Mac Tire,
I think this thread is becoming nothing more than name calling and i am not getting involved. if want to think Gerry Adams is the ultimate republican and everybody else is bitter and uninformed, then fine. That,s your right. At the inception of these debates you were justifying s.f position, you didn't alter my outlook but held yourself well, now you just seem a noise up merchant.
Tain bo, Frankie, etc, for what it's worth i don't think there is much point trying to change Mac's mind he seems sure of his convictions, however flawed we might find them. Also i think the name calling's going both ways now and it's all becoming a bit childish and non productive. My attitude with s.f and all parties in the six counties is let them voice their beliefs, they do themselves more damage than any opponent ever could.

Max Headroom said...

Martin McGuinness at the 1986 Ard Fheis, quote: "Don't go my friends, we will lead you to the republic"

Genuflecting in tuxedos wasn't what we had in mind.

Victory to the Banquet Men!
God Save the Queen!

Mac Tíre said...

Frankie you have left me none the wiser as to who David Sharrock is. All you illustrated was that he is a journalist and this is something I already knew.

So Frankie let me get this right because your logic has confused me: you don't wish to see Gerry Adams jailed in connection with Jean McConvilles murder - but if found guilty a person will do two years according to you? - but you accuse Gerry of implicating himself in her murder- and are demanding that Gerry provides an alibi - and if he doesn't...what happens?

Nah I won't be inviting any other Shinners on here. Sure apparently the leadership not only frequent this site but they also pay me to be here! While I won't be asking, they might be inclined to acquiesce to your request (don't ya just love pirates of the caribbean) . Here's an idea, instead of asking me to provide the Shinners, petition Anthony to bring back Michael Henry. The guy must be climbing the walls, watching this conversation unfold, unable to participate.

I'll start the chant;


Max Headroom said...

Mac Tíre said...

"I only have one rule in life..."never trust a judge or priest."

Any right minded person would've included politicians in the above statement but I guess genuflecting rEPUBLICAN Banquet Men are acceptable to you as long as they say they're on our side.

Victory to the Banquet Men!
God Save the Queen!

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mac Tire
You don't even have the first clue what your defending. Why would you?

Your just bleeting on and on and it's tiring.
He made a statement to police everyone knows it.
You belong to a party that advocates people inform but then you probably don't know that either.

You mentioned Bap Mc Greevy In an earlier post in relation to flats in which his preventable murder being dismantled via Sinn Fein.
They didn't do too much for Bap while he was living. He was bloody tormented and that pack of shitsters in that centre knew it.

Adams done nothing for anyone other than himself and the people on that area know it.
The anger was so bad against them that they were hastily putting together platforms to appeal for calm amongst the people.
He was trashed in the A/Town News by the now editor.
Go and read that over Easter.
But then you probably don't trust editors of Sinn Fein papers.

sean bres said...

Nuala Perry no longer a republican eh! Bit rich that coming from a mouthpiece for a party administering British rule, legitimising Britain's security apparatus and giving succour to its Head of State, in turn legitimising their presence in the north. Now if Nuala had done all that...

Tain Bo said...


my apology, I know you are not dangerous your curiosity trying to get to the basics would be frowned upon and described as anti-SF.
The other thing that is automatic being you post on the Quill and question what went on.
Even though in my opinion you are always fair and neutral that is not how SF would view you.

Tain Bo said...

Mac Tire,

the Quill should feel honoured you find our company more appealing than the drudgery and repetitiveness of canvassing sounds as if you are masquerading as a hard-line shin.
I commend your dedication to the party though if the Quill is your time wasting preference then by your own admission your dedication is questionable at the least.

So, in fact there was no need in you excusing yourself under the premise that you would return after the important reason you cited “canvassing” for the party.
One of us is slightly bending the truth I will still side with you are just being well mannered.

I made no accusation nor was I chastising a grown man but if that floats your boat then happy sailing. I may argue with you but have no interest in overstepping a boundary I assume you are old enough to hold yourself in check. I would also assume the party elders would be authoritative figures enough for you.

The welcome still stands and the advice was/is genuine you choose to ignore it and overextend yourself deciding that you will attempt to establish yourself as an authority which might fly on other sites but holds no water here.

Okay, “That mask is beginning to slip, but it makes little odds, I had your number from the outset.”

Impressive riddle, obviously it made the odds pretty even as apparently it is significant enough for you to inform me or perhaps I am mistaken and you just enjoy taking the scenic route to make a point.

Odd, I distinctly recall a RUC man telling me he had my number back in 78 did he by any chance pass it on to you.
You are here as pro-SF enjoy the stay but don’t gripe if you are challenged on the basis that others dispute the legitimacy of SF supreme rule.

As I said to Frankie, I never was pro-SF or any political party. I don’t have the enthusiasm or energy to argue in SF rhetorical circles. I hold about as much faith in SF as I do in all the political parties.

Your predecessor Mickey Henry left you wee tiny shoes to fill but your approach has been the more Jack Boot which requires the energy of youth. I take no offense from your comments if you are defending the party I suggest you reinvent your approach as the Mickey Henry syndrome becomes tiresome.

Keep in mind I am not your enemy and apply a simple law of physics “for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.”
It is very infrequent when the Quill calls for a referee so don’t be polishing that wee sheriff’s badge to bright.

And don’t feel special any antagonism can only be matched with an equal antagonism.
Considering you decided it is more craic to knockabout here why don’t you invite your friends in SF to canvass here?

Tain Bo said...

Mac Tire,

the electioneering must not be going so well considering you are back again.
Curious, why the party mouth and espouse peace through cooperation with the PSNI as the legitimate enforcers of the Queen Peace law and civil order.

Then the pro-militant language is used by SF when it comes to proving they are unbowed unbroken hard-line Irish republicans.
This language is reserved for those who don’t follow the party dictate.

You could feel the sweat running of Morrison’s napper as he rushed to pen the making of a tout even then the buck eejit could not say directly what was on his mind unlike the recent bit of truth coming from a Brit Lord stating categorically that the Banquet man should be shot.

Morrison being sneaky and underhanded as usual promoting the same idea with his article but gutless to say it outright even though that language is clear even the Banquet Man is on record for what happens to collaborators “death.”

Make up your minds either you support the PSNI or you don’t. It is unfortunate that anyone is lifted but just as unfortunate that the party sold the north to become part of the establishment.
A historical project seems minor in the grand scheme of things as your leaders dismantled the RM and traded freedom for social prominence and wait for it, hard to type without laughing “political respectability.”

Perhaps, in a few decades you might see the significance of history being recorded.
All this tout talk is laughable are you hard-line defenders of Irish reunification afraid of the big bad PSNI or more to the point afraid the truth might in some way make the party look like what they are the Panthera pardus is still a Panthera pardus with or without its spots.

There was me believing SF had moved on sounds like they haven’t moved so far and their peaceful track record against non-SF republicans isn’t exactly spotless.

Mac Tíre said...

Surprise, surprise! Another post from Fionnuala attacking Gerry. I didn't see that one coming!

You'd need to be careful, you wouldn't want Gerard Hodgins accusing you of having a hard on for Gerry!

Fionnuala Perry said...

Sean Bres,
He won't identify himself because he knows he would be laughed off. Like O Millionaire and all the other wannabes he'll drag on and make himself a few quid.
Nothing Republican about Mac Tiresome. He knows that himself.

It's own faults Sean, we should have never given him an opening by answering.

He must not be impressing too many of the would be Constitutional voters!
You'd love to ask him on the doorstep, 'what happened articles 2&3 ' like his mates he'd have to go home and google it.

grouch said...

michael henry, where are you, you were offensive(occasionally) but not a dickhead, ur right mac tire im not a republican, im a gaelic marxist-lennonist - groucho and john all the way. nobody here is motivated by hatred of adams, its constant lying, doublespeak and treachery that most of us here have issues with. ivor bell, if you are reading this - please turn supergrass now, i will give you protection here in saordonia. mac tire, if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle, if you had balls you wudnt by in psf. and by the way, id trust your new voters(?!) before myself too. i am very unreliable and flip flop all the time. btw, have you ever heard of christin ni elias. she might be before your time but her story is probably a good reason for you to keep brown nosing your dear leader-for-life coz if you ever dare cross him you will fucking know all about it.

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