Wednesday, March 26, 2014

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Former Derry Mayor Labels Boston College Archive a Touting Programme

The former mayor of Derry, Sinn Fein councillor Kevin Campbell, has labelled the Boston College oral history archive a 'touting programme.' The former H Block blanket man has remained an enthusiastic supporter of MI5 determined British policing methods in the North despite the force having conducted a Twelfth of July raid on his home in a blatant act of political/sectarian vindictiveness. All the while he tries to wax curiously oblivious to the fact that the PSNI whom he supports is carrying on the work of the RUC in seeking to jail republicans who he fought alongside during the IRA’s failed war against the British state.

In a Twitter exchange with Sinn Fein MLA Raymond McCartney, another blanket protest stalwart, the former mayor is emphatic is his use of the term ‘touting’.




In his attempt to label as informers those who participated in the Boston College oral history project Kevin Campbell conveniently overlooks that his own robust support for the British state body seeking the information is based on an arrangement acquiesced in by his party which allows the PSNI to politically police the past in pursuit of republicans for alleged actions during the same war he was actively engaged in as an armed combatant.

It seems disastrous that the British police, very much a part of the violent past, are allowed courtesy of a Sinn Fein endorsed arrangement to selectively mine the past for its own political ends. But this is where things are at. Kevin seems happy with it. While I readily profess a total hostility towards making information available to the British police with which they can pursue republican activists, and with no discomfort stand over my position, Kevin Campbell just might find that type of stance difficult.

As Derry’s former first citizen, exactly what advice does Mr Campbell have for people who may be in possession of information pertaining to the circumstances surrounding the death of Jean McConville or other IRA activity carried out prior to the Good Friday Agreement? His comments on Twitter would suggest he is adamantly opposed to it and that as a means of dissuading anyone who might consider pursuing such a course of action he will seek to label them a ‘tout’.

Yet how does he square this with the welcome given by his party vice president, Mary Lou McDonald, to the arrest of Ivor Bell? It is a given that his ‘touting’ comment will be interpreted by the DUP and others as an attempt by this supposedly responsible and upstanding former mayor to obstruct the very PSNI investigation that his party vice president has welcomed.

Perhaps the real reason for Kevin Campbell bandying the ‘tout’ smear is not because of any fidelity to remaining stum per se. He is a member of a party that openly advocates providing information on republicans at odds with the Sinn Fein strategy. He is not opposed in the slightest to information becoming available to the British police, merely that it not be information about his party leader.

Ivor Bell, who Kevin Campbell sought to abuse in his tweet, is strenuously denying any allegations against him and has since been granted bail on charges which relate to an action that numerous people believe was ordered by Kevin Campbell’s own party leader, Gerry Adams. Councillor Campbell it seems is eager to assist his boss in applying the old maxim ‘if at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.’



98 comments:

Max Headroom said...

Who could have imagined in the late 1970s and early 1980s that blanketmen who suffered together mentally and physically in horrendous squalor under a British penal system would today, be at loggerheads with one another over supporting the very system responsible for their suffering.

Dixie said...

Kevin Campbell as Mayor made the outrageous comment while standing over IRA graves in Creggan, 'that in the context of a freedom struggle that is almost 1,000 old incredible change has been brought about', and that 'the One Big Weekend event in the former Ebrington Barracks was perhaps the greatest metaphor for the change we have witnessed in this city.'

Why? Because the said barracks, according to the Baldrickesque logic of the Adamsite Campbell, 'was once a bastion of English rule in Ireland.'

Aye and the bastion of English Rule in the North of Ireland is now the MI5 Headquarters in Holywood. And Stormont to a lessor extent is the gamekeepers lodge.

Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what "irony" is?

Baldrick: Yes, it's like "goldy" and "bronzy" only it's made out of iron.

With people like Kevin Campbell doing their dirty work the British now possess the most powerful propaganda weapon in their almost 1,000 of occupation...The membership of Sinn Fein.

As for the brassed-necked Raymond McCartney, it would fit him better if he remembers the skeletons which have recently popped out of his own family closet...

tiarna said...

Under the Republican psychic Bell would have been 'loose talking' not touting but where does that leave Campbell's comrades who signed statements and confessions? ... did the campbell himself not sign a confession?

AM said...

Tiarna,

it is a case of don't do what I do, do what I say.

tiarna said...

Thing is he was tweeting to a man who also had signed a confession (albeit a false one). It is not so much Campbell believes Bell to be a tout anymore than he would call Raymond McCartney one but more he reveals how derogatory SF talk and think, up on the hill, about anyone not on their script.

gerard hodgins said...

when the british have the former revolutionaries endorsing the british policing system which seeks to pursue us for our pasts, pasts the former revolutionaries were once part of, we are fucked!

oh what a lovely victory .....

IrishAmericanGhirl said...

One never would have dreamed that republican principles were for sale. Total support for republicans who won't compromise. . ( :

Jack Conway said...

Until an amnesty for all Troubles-related violence is agreed the past will continue to haunt the present. The statute of limitations on everything should expire with the Good Friday Agreement. What's to be gained by these witch hunts?

Tain Bo said...

Chalk it up to the Tiocfaidh Ar Nah brigade anything to divert attention away from the sellout.
The great leader has spoken and the party of peace is using the language of war against fellow republicans.

I am sure the arsehole will be moaning that you didn’t give his city the proper name of London Derry where SFs culture is attacking anything that they cannot digest.

I wonder where SF was when the legal battle to stop the cops from obtaining any of the project oh that’s right they had no interest now they all have the jitters.

Perhaps the next time Marty McGuiness is kissing the queens arse Kevin Campbell can tout it as the right thing to do as they have mastered kissing British arse beyond a fine art.
Now all the cretins can do is moan as they know people are wising up and not lapping up their manure.

We all owe a deep gratitude to SF for bringing us a permanent MI5 barrack, State policing and continued British rule!

Come back Mickey at least we know where you are feed the shite.

Feel te love said...

Was on the same block as kevin and recognised ealy that he was just another head nodding sycophant/ballbag, as were most of the Derry wans at that time, in fainess so were a lot of belfast vols.

The situation nowadays is,there has been no Michael Collins assassinated even though there are a whole bunch of Collinsesque traitors out there. The so-called dissos will never have any credibility while they accept that former republicans can say whatever they want without consequence.

When I read the Gerry Adams comments a couple of days ago, my thoughts went back to when Pat F was named in parliment and susequently murdered.

Henry JoY said...

More neo-colonialist clap-trap from yet another northern Free-Stater.
What I'm surprised about is why are folks so surprised?

Wasn't such as this predicted? Are lessons of history to be ignored without costs?

grouch said...

things are so bad/sad now we shud just do our best to keep the faith and luk out for each other and above all else encourage genuine mils to get the fu*k away from their riddled corrupt controlled croney outfits. and hope grassroots will get away from sf. we shud have stuck to councils, we were warned its as close to the enemy shitstem we shud go a long time ago by people who knew what they were talking about. depressing few days really when u think about it. future generations wil be damn glad of the boston archive as a few decent people now are. u done ireland a favour anthony and all involved.

AM said...

Feel te love,

personally, I always liked the guy in jail. And as a blanket man he certainly did not have it easy. But he has a lot to answer for in terms of his current behaviour. Maybe he would like to explain to us who was the senior Derry Sinn Fein member passing on the names of alleged drug dealers to RAAD.

I invite him on here to discuss it. I guarentee it is an invitation that will be turned down.

AM said...

Page 23 of the Andytown News - the Minister for the Disappeared has apparently been gutting me. Fuck him.

Max Headroom said...

The only thing Campbell can claim to have in common with Balddrick is the fact they were both happy under the supervision of their British paymasters.
At least Balddrick had genuine humor and was a likable character, Campbell on the other hand is a humorless asshole.

Simon said...

Feel te love "The situation nowadays is,there has been no Michael Collins assassinated even though there are a whole bunch of Collinsesque traitors out there. The so-called dissos will never have any credibility while they accept that former republicans can say whatever they want without consequence."

Calling for a feud on the basis of an offensive tweet. Not really a thinking-man's Republican are you?

Niall said...

Once again, McCartney's and Campbell's comments only reinforce my belief....past glories count for shit!
Those of you out there who walked (squeaky booted) of the wings during the Blanket protest, those of you who signed statements, those of you who pleaded guilty and those who were labelled the 'Contras' by McCartney and his cronies...and how we supped it all up, naive as we were.....you, if you still hold faith to the true tenants of Irish Republicanism.....you are the real heroes in my eyes for you didn't fill your pockets with the Queen's shillings and administer her rule in Ireland....everything else above is really insignificant when compared to that act of treachery......at the end of the day you didn't give up.

AM said...

Niall,

all minor misdemeanours as you point out. One mistake I made was not pleading guilty to a much lesser charge and getting a much smaller sentence. Those less full of it pleaded guilty and in my view there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.

The 'Contras' - they loved labelling their opponents that now.

AM said...

Minister for the Disappeared 46 minutes in.

David Higgins said...

" a man called Ivor Bell" does he not know Ivor Bell either now no? slimy bastard, he tries to distance himself from absolutely everything, next he'll be saying he's not Irish.

frankie said...

I find it strange (and funny in way) that people go to other sites and call you a tout Anthony.. But wont come here and take the 'fight' to your door..

If I have a problem with someone I'll go to the person and tell them. I wouldn't go to Tom, Dick or Harry..

I don't think you are. I don't think the people who got interviewed are either..

Max Headroom said...

And there was me believing the mock picture said Baldrick, I need to start wearing my reading glasses more often.

BALDPRICK that's even better Ha Ha, named him well.

larry hughes said...

Nial

that reminds me of the parole issue and people on short sentences being derided and cold shouldered for taking weekend paroles near the end of their sentences because of the impact it would have on lifers AND it was an acceptance of the system. When it was announced anyone who had served 12 yrs or more would in future be entitled to parole ALL changed over-night. Past bravado and emotional blackmail of short term prisoners was like the SF attitude today on awkward issues, 'it never happened'. I can still see the faces on the cunts that were munching on the H-Block grills almost in their haste to get a couple of days out.

In hindsight that should have been revelation enough.

Can I also just say on the bullying issue in the post, I think at times Dixie has shown that he is still in 'provo' mode himself. Only difference between him and the provos is he hasn't gone away you know. First MH, who next n the march to a fully fledged Dixie disso land on the Quill?

Feel te love said...

Simon

Is that what you say when you dont accept others have opinions. That they dont think. I dont want Irishman killing Irishman, that serves only the crwon. My point was, that for all the slabbering about traitors, nothing is ever done about it. When Collins was killed it unblurred what the actual defination of a traitor was.

Mackers

I did not spend much time around people like Campbell the yes man or any like him. There was blind subservience from these people and to me that was and is frightening and dangerous. When I refered to Pat F, it was because Gerry Adams was hanging a target on you when he made that statement, already you have recieved abuse and false accusation from the party machinery. you know how they operate and understand more than most how low that scum go.

Henry JoY said...

Come on Anthony ... up off the pity pot! Why would you expect anything else from a pig but a grunt?

I wonder how you'd feel if 'Jary' was going around singing the praises of the Boston College Oral History Project.
In those circumstances most unbiased and independent observers would, I propose, rightly suspect the work to be unethical, flawed, bogus and shoddy ... a not seriously genuine effort ... a partisan undertaking.

'Jary' the braying ass ... is talking about himself yet again ... unethical, self-serving, flawed, bogus, partisan, not seriously genuine ... blah, blah, blah.

Anthony despite it's short-comings (which we discussed in previous threads) I'd propose your work is a valuable contribution to unraveling and understanding a difficult and painful past, a resource that will appreciate considerably in value as the years progress.

Surely hostile and manipulative responses from powerful and partisan reactionaries are to be anticipated and perhaps because of such inevitability best accepted for what it really is ... just more partisan defensive delusion, denial and deceit.

Reacting, just like some people were prone to do with 'michaelhenry' here, keeps one in the game they orchestrate.
If there needs to be a response; choose the lay of the land ... choose the time of the response!

AM said...

Larry,

Dixie has long urged the need for open discussion. That quality of that discussion here was being seriously diluted by Councillor McIvor. He was treaitng the site like a gable wall where he could scrawl copious amounts of rubbish on. We have provided him with his own gable wall and he can scrawl to his heart's content.

Henrry Joy,

a pity pot is a luxury beyond my reach but thanks for the comment. A lot of sound advice there.

Feel te Love,

point taken. But I do agree with Simon on the inferences that could be drawn from your earlier comment and I am glad he drew attention to it.

DaithiD said...

This issue highlights some Sinn Fein truths that have come to the fore recently:
1) Anything potentially critical of Sinn Fein/Adams is anti-peace.
2) Republicanism is anything Sinn Fein say it is, and this is transitory and over time potentially contradictory (to the uncultured).
3) Protesting about republicans being locked up is anti-republican.
4) Comrades locked up then, for crimes commited before ‘98 were patriotic.
5) Comrades locked up now, for crimes commited before ‘98 are seditious.

Henry JoY said...

Eamon McCann in an opinion piece in today's Irish Times sums things up nicely;

"If you do behave disruptively, expect to be denounced as a dissident or a thug by the element who appear to have done very well from the Belfast Agreement and who are presented on television every time you turn it on as the heroes of the hour who by hard work and moving on have set the world to rights for you".

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/peace-brings-no-dividend-to-the-poorest-in-the-north-1.1739265?page=2

Dixie said...

Larry Hughes whats your problem did someone say something which touched a nerve? It looks that way.

As for bullying MH, or McIvor as I call him, the man asks for everything he gets and fucked if I care if you or anyone else thinks my exposing a person who mocks suicide victims and Paul Quinn is comparable to bullying.

In fact who the fuck are you to make this statement below?

" I can still see the faces on the cunts that were munching on the H-Block grills almost in their haste to get a couple of days out..."

It's a wonder I haven't heard of such a staunch stalwart of Republicanism such as yourself before the Pensive Quill brought you to my notice.

You use the word 'disso' like a seasoned shinner I might add.

Max Headroom said...

Just listened to the recording with Adams, lord of the hypocrites strikes again, he claims the Guard should resign fair enough but where's his honorable credibility sheltering pedos? and he/they need to stop with this bullshite nonsense claiming anyone who is against the present provisional Sinn £ein direction are somehow anti peace. What a load of balls and a propaganda spin to gain votes.The war is over and was lost thanks to Adams and his stormont cohorts, those gobshites are trying to drag everyone else into their corrupt entity to make themselves look good in the face of blatant treachery, mother Ireland has been shafted once again by those who claim to be her sons & daughters, nothing new there!

larry hughes said...

Dixie

rude once again. you don't need drink!

Tain Bo said...

Dixie,

You might have struck a nerve,

“First MH, who next n the march to a fully fledged Dixie disso land on the Quill?”

That’s a very broad backhander against you and the Quill itself.
I think Larry missed or turned a blind eye to those Anthony give credit to for suggesting Mickey get his own page inferring instead that you are somehow in control of the Quill or have an agenda to run off posters.

If anything Mickey got preferential treatments getting his own page were others end up in the sewer of the Quill.
If Mickey decided to post without his cryptic slurs and actually made or defended some points on any article he wouldn’t have the problem he brought on himself.

Larry has a habit of baiting and being a sneaky under the radar bastard about it.
I would like to know what he means by a fully fledged Dixie dissident land on the Quill.
I was unaware that the Quill was for dissidents only as I have heard that shite from the leaders for life British Usurped Republican Party. (BURP)

I would address him myself but choose to ignore him as he has been critical of republicans and seems to be having a go at you in some reverse way of defending Mickey the riddler.

As for munching on the grills what prisoner wouldn’t want out? Not a bad running insulting you, the POWs and the Quill all in one breath sounds like Mickey by proxy.

larry hughes said...

Dixie

not getting started in a 400 post rantathon. But if you read any posts other than yer own you'd know I'm not even interested in 'republicanism' that failed time and time again delusion of Irish politics.

Whether I was in jail 1 week or 100 years makes no difference. I am relating what I saw just as O'Rawe did. My own experience there. There was no shortage of cunts in the place and many went on to be bigger ones upon release.

VERY few people give a stuff if you did 20 yrs Dixie or took a 1000 beatings, perhaps it's your inability to accept that which has you pursuing MH not just here but in the press and on FB. Rather spooky.

Are you a relative of that fella Quinn by any chance? I think you have an agenda here on the quill to direct 'traffic'. It's just my observation of late. Only shiner antics I see are from you Dixie THE MOVIE STAR IN HIS OWN MIND.

larry hughes said...

max headroom

exactly.

larry hughes said...

tain bo

put that knife down lol

Dixie said...

Larry I've tried at the beginning to argue sensibly with McIvor and it was an utter waste of time.

Your last comment in particular is warning that if I reply I could once again find myself trapped by inanity...

Tain Bo I normally try and ignore Larry, one MH McIvor is enough...

grouch said...

niall,
ur comment at 8.37, fair play to you man.

ireland will never be right because me fein are the biggest party on both sides of the border. dixie, everyone can be touchy here from time to time, urself included, we're fuc*ing irish for fu*k sake. anthony, there are archives as yet to be collated/collected/recorded. they will show your detractors/attackers for what they really are, of that i am sure. u did the truth a service and ur article from 1902 "the power of truth" the other night was mighty.
also, i think most of us here are a bit nuts. definitely a good few of us anyway. seriously, we are right beeeyatches to each other sometimes over shite. but then again look at the stormont troopers. id rather be here with all you nuts. even the ones i dont like.

larry hughes said...

Dixie

I wasn't for posting further on this thread. it looked like descending into personal insult and with tain bo in the wings.

I've got a clearer picture of things over-all today. So enough said on this from me.

larry hughes said...

just like to say my comment that no one gives a stuff was unfair to Dixie and pretty low on my part. I regret posting that.

Grouch

The most crazy thing about some of us on here is that we are NOT officially certified!!

Dixie said...

One thing Larry, your friend MH McIvor hasn't learnt from the knock on the door from a journalist.

Last night Eamonn Mallie posted a piece...

"Forty six people plunged to their deaths last year from San Francisco's Golden Gate bridge...how to stop this? .... http://t.co/0g3dJNRQsn "

Below it McIvor posted...

Michael Henry

Use sticky paint on the bridge-so they are held on as they go to jump-

Enough said....

grouch said...

just heard a bit of that recording u mentioned from 46 mins on. i wonder when brendan hughes and ivor bell were arrested along with the leading non-member of the ira - gerry adams, all those years ago, did they have any idea that one day one of them would be referred to by gerry as - a man called ivor bell and the other would be called a liar. remember slab murphy is a good republican to the same gerry. where did it all go wrong? answer - a fuc*ing awful long time ago. as regards his comments on the boston archive its clear to see he is one of the most twisted cynical shameless skangers ever to have been involved in irish politics of any persuasion. how our old friends can put up with this 'leadership' is beyond me. truly depressing. im doin loads of tai chi lately and its fuc*ing great. seriously, we all need a break from this shit or we will get completely headwrecked.

larry hughes said...

Dixie

I get the point that people trying to make genuine political contributions here felt the remarks by MH were becoming a problem. Personally I recon he would be mighty craic in a boozer. But time and place come into play there.

As regards my comment nobody gives a stuff, many of us in our teens did and got 'records' for doing so. Unfortunately SF have tapped into fact too many don't give a stuff and therefore peace at any price permits them to dispense with any attempt at a coherent or consistent manifesto. They get away with saying anything.

Like Gerry Adams ... 'I was never in the IRA and what we need here is a truth commission'.
without even a blush.

Grouch

the piss-process has left us all schitso.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Larry,
You have more guts than me I didn't feel comfortable with someone being put into a gibberish slot but I would have felt seriously out of step saying it.
Like everyone else MH drives me nuts with his off the wall comments but it didn't sit well with me just a personal thing.

grouch said...

larry, get doing the tai chi a cara , u will love it. dixie, i hav to admit this for the sake of honesty, i laughed when i read what mh said but only because you quoted it here, i definitely wud not hav laughed if i had read it there, if u know what i mean. it is all about context, and i do think mh thinks he is round his mates gaff shootin the breeze when he's commenting. i dont know, u probably think im defending him, and i probably am. its because, as i said before, i was dropped at birth too. and fair play larry for sayin u regretted posting something. i genuinely hope mh does the same about paul quinn and genuinely means it. anyway, im off to do one more bit of tai chi. good night john boy. good night mary ellen.

Tain Bo said...

Just sweeping in on the wings here if it wasn’t for the internet SF would get away with promoting British rule and groveling at every corner they get to piss on.
Thankfully they have no control over the web and get caught out with every yarn they spin.

What a load of bollix with Marty meet and greet the Queen what republican would bow the head to cement republican humiliation.
The puppets sink lower and lower soon they will be able to peer into a porthole on the Titanic.

frankie said...

Tain Bo,

It gets better. Marty has been invited to dinner at Lizzies..

Henry JoY said...

Nuala,
I remember the last time I found a bird with a broken wing ... I twisted and broke it's neck ... it didn't sit well me ... just a personal thing you know.

Max Headroom said...

He'll attend because he owes her a favor after getting his Royal pardon on the quiet.
As i said before the Brits have him over a barrel and he's not letting on.

Tain Bo said...

Frankie,

I was ranting on about that on the Kevin Campbell tripe as he talks through Adams arse!
I am baffled by anyone who supports Monarchies and how much of a traitor do you need to be to get an invite from God Mother Liz no apology from any monarchs for the destruction and deaths of many Irish people.

The right thing to do would be say thanks but no thanks but the correct thing to do would be tell the Queen to bring her citizens home and stay the hell out of Ireland.

You couldn’t make this shite up from killing the Queens soldiers and now dinner with the Queen perhaps ambassador Marty might ask the windbag if she intends to apologise to the families of those murdered by her forces.

AM said...

It is interesting that both Nuala and Larry take the line that they do. It shows a healthy scepticism for anything that they feel might hinder free expression.

But, in this case, I feel totally able to stand over it. Councillor McIvor can contribute on his own page. He has not been silenced. His noise has just been moved elsewhere so that the rest of us can hear each other.

larry hughes said...

AM
Perhaps the MH page could become the comedy section of the Quill.

frankie said...

Gerry,

You mention the word 'truth' several times through out your piece.

I have three questions..

1..Why did you say originally you were in prison at the time of Jean McConvilles death, when you weren't?

2..Why did you claim to sing 'Always look on the bright side of life', when the song wasn't penned then?


3...Why did you lie about no deal offered to end the 1981 hunger strike, when there was a deal on the table?

And US federal judge William Young, who studied the contents of the Boston College archives, said that “it was a bona fide academic exercise of considerable intellectual merit”.

How much of the project have you read Gerry?

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mackers,
I have never taken any other line on MH.
I just thought when it came to the crunch Larry had more in him than I had.

HenryJoy
I understand the comparison your making about tough decisions however, if something doesn't sit easy it doesn't sit easy and this just wouldn't be my way.
I am not criticising or undermining but I took so much fleck over this before and I simply can't understand what differs from then?

frankie said...

Tain Bo,

I think it's too late for either Gerry or Martin to refuse the invite. There would be too many questions asked if they refused. They've painted themselves into a corner (whether deliberate or not)

I agree with Sean bres and others who have asked for Irish Republicans to examine what happened in the run up to the Sinn Fein ard fheis in 1986. Between 1981-83 republicans were by and large untied. Around 1983/84 the puppet masters were toying with the idea of re drawing the border again .. ..It didn't make it on to their short list (re drawing of the border) of what to do with the north. Probably because at the same time the Chris Blacks, Gilmores, Scap came on to the scene and the tide started to turn...

if you (various Irish republican groups*) can somehow manage to get the same energy, interest that was about early mid 80's then it would be game set and match for republicans.

* I don't class SF as an Irish Republican party any more than I class FF as a republican party (thats not to say there aren't Irish republicans with both parties). Just heard Paul Maskey congratulating the PSNI for thwarting an attack on the crown forces on radio Ulster.

frankie said...

Blonde moment...

I thought I posted a link to Gerry Adams blog where he again called the Boston College tapes a sham etc..
My post at 12.33 is what I asked Gerry Adams on his blog.. I doubt he will post it or reply to it.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Frankie,
He doesn't do replies I once asked him did he ever consider acting if all else fails and especially given his performance around the child abuse.
Always thought he was a born Macbeth.
At one time my comments wouldn't even get printed until I reminded him how he would come to our home as a young person and sat talking for hours to my da.

Dixie said...

THEY CAN'T EVEN STAND OVER THEIR STATEMENTS!!

http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local-news/sinn-fein-councillor-brands-boston-college-archive-a-touting-programme-on-twitter-1-5966569

Tain Bo said...

Frankie,

the French had the right solution to Monarchies. Too late or more to the point to eager to sit in the heart of the crumbling Empire and speak only when spoken to and I am sure they have been wired off not to pilfer any of the nuts laid out for Lizzy in the corridors of her wee palace.

That is an interesting bit on redrawing the border landing on Thatcher’s desk which indirectly might suggest that the 1981 hunger strikers had an offer from the Brits.
There were rumours as far back as 83 that some dirty work was coming down the pipe but were easily dismissed as Brit Black propaganda.
The supergrass show trials were only meant to slow the RM down the well hidden agents of influence would have been directing the show.

The split was another way of slowing down the RM by creating a republican against republican circus even the IRSP/INLA were not immune republicanism was challenged by itself and crumbled the Adams camp took full advantage and continued on with backdoor meetings.

It might be that some of those agents get an invite to dinner at the palace in appreciation for their loyal support of British rule.

It would be difficult to class the SF leadership as republican when they rely on the PSNI to go after anyone that doesn’t agree with their agenda.

I doubt we will see the same energy as the Brits know how to run the show unlike during the 70s were they murdered at will and cemented support for the RM.
Now it is the silent invaders lurking and with the aid of SF dismantling republicanism.

The catch 22 for anti-treaty-republicans being you can’t argue against peace and that is SFs favourite line not they give a toss about peace as their greatest concern is keeping the parties interests at any length or depth they have to go or sink to.

Tain Bo said...

Anthony,

just curious if Mickey posts a normal comment would that go on the gibberish page?

Tain Bo said...

Dixie,

the only thing they stand over is their loyalty to British rule.
Twits on twitter when the SF think tank resumes you might get an answer.

AM said...

Tain Bo,

probably. Because the minute I would see it coming through the gibberish button would be hit.

To be serious I never thought about it. There will be no asking him to eat humble pie or wear sackcloth and ashes. We are not that sort of site. Nor have I any inclination to be punitive. He has just been moved to the side so that others can get on with discussing things rather than be bogged down in the muck.

A small few want him back but it is a minority. They might be right, they might be wrong and it is not a matter of principle for me. I simply could no longer be annoyed with his bollix. So rather than deny him a voice, daft as it is, I just gave him his own spot where he can talk bollix to his heart's content. He has not availed of the offer. Sometimes people forget that it is me who has to wade through the endless muck before publishing.

It is an interesting one. I would rule nothing out.

He was part of the furniture here but a broken chair is not something we can sit on. A bit of upholstering might see him right.

Tain Bo said...

Anthony,

understandable not that it is of great concern I just see it as something for the SF camp to moan over.
I can only view it as something he brought upon himself and you are right we do forget you have to sift through the posts.

No matter he got himself his own personal soapbox here.

frankie said...

Fionnuala, I remember you saying to me before not to expect a reply from Gerry Adams. All I am asking is why did he try to distance himself with the Jean mcConville case yrs ago. Was it lapse in memory (being foggy and all that) or does he know what really happened and for whatever reason wont say. Logic tells me he has to have heard even a 'Chinese whisper' or three. It's similar to the link Dixe put up. When SF are asked a straight forward question they clam up. The Derry Journal ask's Kevin Campbell the same question as Anthony asked (basically to square a circle) "SF are asking all and sundary to report PFR activity to the PSNI in 2014 but stay tight lipped over a PFR murder 40yrs or so ago..?"

Tain bo...."just curious if Mickey posts a normal comment would that go on the gibberish page"?

Anthony..." He was part of the furniture here but a broken chair is not something we can sit on. A bit of upholstering might see him right".

My two bits he starts off by retracting his comments about Paul Quinn the jokes, about todays PRF's killing less than the Provisionals, the suicide comments etc.. And keep him quarantined for how long' '????'. And one day put it to a vote.

There already ready one or two dissenting whispers.

Here is a what 'if' to ponder on. One of the few times I've read you and Michael 'conversing' was in some book reviews. Now what if in your next review Micheal makes a constructive observation on the book, author (or suggests a book). Would you post it? The post wouldn't detract from any 'debates'..

Alfie Gallagher said...

Anthony,

"Sometimes people forget that it is me who has to wade through the endless muck before publishing."

I often forgot that myself. Remember my debates on creationism with Stefan and Robert around Christmas 2010? Or the never-ending discussions with John McGirr about homosexuality? I'm not sure how anyone who tried to follow it all could have stayed sane!

larry hughes said...

Mackers

'There will be no asking him to eat humble pie or wear sackcloth and ashes. We are not that sort of site'.

my experience of the Quill exactly. Fair do's.

frankie said...

There were rumours as far back as 83 that some dirty work was coming down the pipe but were easily dismissed as Brit Black propaganda.

What I know is sometime between 83/84 something swung the war (thats what it was) in favour of the British. Up and until then the British weren't making much in roads. And Irish Republicans were by and large united. Was it solely Scap who dealt the fatal? I don't know. But a chosen few manipulated it from 83/84.. It wasn't that long ago the RUC took him in for questioning and then very quickly released him .

Last year (2012), the Historical Enquiries Team had Scappaticci arrested and questioned about Joe Mulhern's murder. He was released without charge

A serial killer free to walk where ever he wants. With more green backs in his bank account than I will earn in my working life. All paid for courtesy of her Majesty's Gov.. You couldn't make it up if you tried.

I doubt we will see the same energy as the Brits know how to run the show unlike during the 70s were they murdered at will and cemented support for the RM.

If the various political and non political Irish republican groups form a pan -republican front. People wouldn't dismiss the level of disquiet with in Irish Republicanism as easily as they do today. The only thing stopping republicans from cementing themselves are themselves. And there are elections coming up all over the place within the next 18mths. They have to ask themselves whats more important to continue with personal grudges and ego's etc.. or Irish republicanism. 'They' are on the same side and once were comrades and friends...

The catch 22 for anti-treaty-republicans being you can’t argue against peace and that is SFs favorite line not they give a toss about peace as their greatest concern is keeping the parties interests at any length or depth they have to go or sink to.

You can argue about the peace and not pull one trigger Tain bo. You can expose the unfairness of it, the hypocrisy of it, the unjustness of it. And expose the double standards of SF policies in the south. There are also elections there very soon aswell. SF will at least hold what they have and probably increase there vote. One big advantage SF have is the ignorance or indifference the voters in the south have towards the north and vice versa. That has to be addressed.

AM said...

Alfie,

both John and Stefan were given to intelligent commentary. That they were wrong in our view was a secondary issue.

Councillor McIvor contributes very little that could be described as intelligent. It was invariably unadulterated gibberish.

Frankie,

have given it no real thought, don't even want to be thinking about it but a very quick response would be yes, it would go onto the review page. He can move between the two at will. I don't care so long as I don't have to handle it.

The sheer volume of comments taken up around it had to be dealt with so I opted to clear the lot off to his own page and anybody interested in his nonsense could have it out over there.

He still has every opportunity to get his voice out and people would be alerted rediverted to any comment that came through from him on a separate page.

The only benefit in even talking about it now is that it helps formulate thoughts on how to approach these type of things. I am not going to be chained to this blog managing idiocy forever and day. His freedom to be an idiot is not going to limit my freedom to do other things.

Tain Bo,

the SF camp is probably delighted that he has not come back. He was a serious embarrassment to it. Seriously, imagine having that flung up to you everywhere you go.

grouch said...

frankie, i hav an awful feeling that it was around mid 70's when things swung in favor of brits (high level double agents and informers etc - pushing long war strategy which they were always going to win and stop start at their will). i dont think there will be a pan republican front either while mi5 are controlling armed factions. i think mi5 won the war and they are winning the 'peace' from their hole in the ground. 90% of what media portrays is a circus. sinn fein entered that world nearly 20 years ago and they are the clowns now. o bradaigh said the councils are as close to the enemy system as we shud go and he was right. we lost. hate sayin it. but we lost big time a long time ago. im keeping the faith and enjoy this site, there are still gud eggs out there, but this island is an absolute mess now. still cant get over adams calling his one time comrade and friend and indeed the person he probably benefitted most from being associated with in those early years as - a man called ivor bell. u cudnt make it up - unless of course you were a doublespeaking bullshit artist with absolutely no fuc*ing merit.

Alfie Gallagher said...

AM,

"Both John and Stefan were given to intelligent commentary. That they were wrong in our view was a secondary issue.

"Councillor McIvor contributes very little that could be described as intelligent. It was invariably unadulterated gibberish."


I agree. John, Robert, and Stefan all engaged with my arguments and responded with their own. Councillor McIvor was a different kettle of fish. I still recall how I tried and failed to get him to admit that we were not currently living in a united Ireland.

My point is that those of us who comment here sometimes forget that either you or Carrie has to wade through every single comment before it is published. It is only when I remember people like Brian "The Shit Man" Clarke that I can truly understand how difficult a moderator's job is.

Alfie Gallagher said...

Actually, this exchange was the closest I came to making Councillor McIvor to concede that we do not now live in a United Ireland. His responses are like something out of Orwell's 1984.

Max Headroom said...

I hope McGuinness chokes on his Brussels sprouts whenever he thinks back to 1981 when dining with his pardoner.

Tain Bo said...

Anthony,

good point I never thought about that aspect as he always did make the best argument to avoid SF.
Not that SF will give you a nod for indirectly doing them a favour at least here on the quill regardless he sunk his own ship.

No matter he came out of it with his own personal page and avoided the sewer in that respect you handled it fairly.

Tain Bo said...

Alfie,

I enjoyed following those debates I am not 100% sure but I believe I commented on enjoying following the back and forth.

I don’t think Mickey believes in a United Ireland but has it morphed into a Sinn Fein Ireland a strange utopia of an SF dictatorship.
Giving the fact that we posters overlook that the comments have to be sifted through add the long run Mickey has had here I believe his antics just met the breaking point.

Tain Bo said...

Max Headroom,

Haven’t heard Brussels’ sprout in years can a Brussel sprout choke on itself?

I sincerely doubt they give a second thought to the hunger strikers if they did give a thought to the hunger strikers are any of the dead volunteers or even the POWs they would not be sitting in republican humiliation gives a whole new meaning to the poem “Guest of the Queen.”

The SF public relations exercise is nothing more than their acceptance of British rule and will dine blissfully in the humiliation sitting upright under royal etiquette.
Bowing to the Queen and only allowed to speak when spoken to.

I hope all SF supporters take pride in these wankers bowing to the Queen on their behalf the finale all SF will stand proudly as God Save the Queen becomes their national anthem.

Just a wild guess but it sounds like all us Ulaidh folk are in for harder times ahead as SF continue to concede more and more of our Irish identity shamelessly to promote their treacherous party.

Tain Bo said...

Frankie,

it would be a case of more than one in war terms it was a classical pincer movement by the Brits.
The key to their victory was to pacify west Belfast and Derry that would cut off Tyrone and Armah.
Experience in dealing with Adams and Co. during the Hunger Strikes would have given them a golden goose as Adams proved to be a poor negotiator and was easily manipulated.

They had some dirt on him which they held onto knowing this made him more pliable. If they had released the dirt on him they ran the risk of a more hardliner replacing him.

In Derry they knew McGuiness was a soft touch and like Adams also very poor at brinkmanship. There would be others in the higher echelon that the Brits had been cultivating.
The Brits or MI5 to be more precise figured out it was easier to fund and promote SF behind the scenes and orchestrated the split which removed or isolated those who could not be bought off or persuaded away from armed struggle.

Phase one was in the bag now how do they sell Sinn Fein to republicans a wee bit of clever campaign engineering thus the strategy of the Armalite and the Ballot box was created as the Brits understood that republicans would vote Sinn Fein believing they were in reality voting for the IRA.

From 86 on the Brits run the show they had those whom they needed in their back pocket and exploited that to the hilt.
I believe the Brits plainly told them that they would have to escalate their war or the Brits would do it for them.

The Brits needed to remove the one thing they were after that was the large arsenal the RM had.
SFs sudden rise in popularity was no accident MI5 talked them into a new power successfully duping SF who in turn duped republicans.

Adams and Co. would have known who in the army council they could sway would be the same people that MI5 had already placed there.
Their conditional surrender caused another split which was barely noticed as the deal was struck SF were touted as victors and the people were euphoric the hype was sold and you would have thought we were on our way to a united Ireland.

16 years on SF don’t look so strong and have become dependent on the British as let’s face it they are not skilled politicians basically they were created and packaged off by MI5.

You are right Frankie the peace is pure hypocrisy north and south are two different worlds we give credit to SF for all the wrong reasons.
When Adams was moved south that was at the behest of the Brits as their interests in Ireland will be held on to.

You have to give credit to British intelligence that has made Northern Ireland a permanent home. They have SF agitating militant republicans as MI5 need a minor excuse to have a barrack in the north to do what they do best and that is run the show.

It is up to anti-treaty-republicans to become more vocal and enter into politics and focus on challenging SF it may be a slow process but at this stage it should be a priority without any serious republican opposition SF will gain more.

Adams & Co. will bury the truth recently they have been rattled by the Belfast Project for one reason only they fear the truth and anything they cannot control or distort.

In essence the MI5 coup would not have worked without the Armalite and the Ballot Box policy.

Hats off to MI5 checkmate.

DaithiD said...

Tain Bo, a neat summary, but one thing is left out, and im afraid that is that people , and by that I mean the population at large,wanted to be duped. They wanted to believe that everything Adams was doing was leading to victory, that’s why all the signposts you lay out, were not missed, they were ignored, Ruari O’Braidaigh decried them from the podium in 1986 they were that clear. I do think many lies were told, but these could only bed down and become ‘truth’ if people wilfully didn’t scrutinise them. I think Anthony has asked rhetorically in his book the question : what is a movement if one man can sell it out? The answers are uncomfortable.

Fionnuala Perry said...

DaithiD

I don't think it can be labelled as simplistic as that.
Yes people did ignore Ruari, worse still they ignored Billy Mc Kee.
It was not a deliberate ignoring of signposts though. It was the sheer lack of capacity to fathom that anything on that scale of betrayal was being contemplated.
Brendan didn't suss it in 86 and I doubt if he could be described as one those who, 'wilfully didn't scrutinise'.

David Higgins said...

Daithi,
I have to concur with Fionnuala, I don't think any body seen this coming. A lot of astute operators within the provies were taking in, even Ruari and Billy would have been shocked with the scale of the eventual betrayal even if they smelled a rat early doors.
In my opinion if certain people had evidence in the early 80s of Adams and co eventual political destination he wouldn't have survived.

DaithiD said...

Nuala, forgive me, I leave off a lot of caveats when posting because I am lazy typing,
But not really grasping the size of the treachery is not a plausible defence, it's a defining theme in this 800yr fight surely?
You will know much more about the grassroots than me, but seeing what has transpired (and I mean the sickening lot) , I'm struggling to see how simply "Adams lied to us" accounts for all of it right upto today, unless there was a willingness for people to disregard what they empirically observed , unfortunately that includes Brendan (who I never met but feel a love for like people do for the Beatles etc)

Fionnuala Perry said...

DaithiD
Its plausible enough for me.
How was it empirically observed ? It was not a study carried out in a Lab. Betrayal isn't tangible it's cloak and danger and involves sneakiness.
Adams didn't do it all by himself! He had quite a few accomplices and agents who were well placed especially in the echelons of IRA security and of course British and Irish securocrats.
This was well thought out and it involved lies and double speak. I know the grassroots believed because unlike Billy mc Kee and others we genuinely couldn't see the wood for trees.
We couldn't see because it was deliberately constructed that way.
Do I regret that? no! because that's who I was and I don't have one single regret.

grouch said...

lads, lassies, lets not forget there was censorship back in the 80's and before. i was young back then (southerner) and u try and interpret what is going on reading between the lines of mainstream print media and the few books that would have been knocking around back then. the mms portrayed o bradaigh and his stock as catholic backward fogeys and adams and mcguinness and their crew as these revolutionary types, they even showed them a type of respect. that is all different now as we have the internet (thank god). there was no photos of ruairi or o conail in long kesh with their arms around future martyrs. youngblokes like me in the south thought these guys were the real deal. i mean they wrote books and everything!!! lets not forget either that 86 ard fheis was 'gerry'mandered with flutes there who were never at an ard fheis before or since. also, look what happened to christin ni elias when she got on wrong side of a young creepy egoist named gerry adams. the movement was taken over by ruthless cynical control freaks and worse a long long time ago. now they are part of the shitstem and when you are part of the shitstem you can get away with...erm... murder, and when you're not with the shitstem they will bang u up even if you're nearing 80. tiocfaidh ar lawyers.

DaithiD said...

Thanks Nuala, this is all hypothetical of course, so yourself and David propose something entirely valid. I don’t really feel it accounts for where the movement is today, why so few are seeking to rectify the mistakes that become more obvious and undeniable as time passes etc

Fionnuala Perry said...

DaithiD,
you have lost me here?

DaithiD said...

Nuala, its nearly 20 years since the first Army ceasefire. If the general population was simply duped as you propose, then we might expect to see greater degradation of the Sinn Fein brand of republicanism.
Even sheltering paedophiles didn’t derail their peace train.

Fionnuala Perry said...

DaithiD
I was not speaking about the general public and I wasn't aware you were either.

David Higgins said...

Daithi,
You've got a point, it depresses me when sinn fein do so well electorally despite their behaviour. I think that could be as simple as there is no credible opposition in the political arena.

DaithiD said...

Nuala , the population in general was something I qualified in the second line of my first comment but it can apply equally to activists too I think. I’m not sure why that matters.
David, I agree there is a lack of credible opposition, unfortunately those willing to take on Sinn Fein package their ideas with socialist wrapping, which essentially guarantees it poses no threat electorally.

David Higgins said...

Daithi,
Again i agree, people automatically assume that if you are a republican then you are a socialist. I once called myself a socialist but a little bit of research and evaluation lead me to believe that socialism has been lead by the very people it claimed to oppose from it's inception.
Socialism has failed in every country or almost every country it represented i don't believe it'd be any different here. Socialism in my opinion is a system too prone to control and elitism to be beneficial.

Fionnuala Perry said...

DaithiD,
Of course it matters! There is a world of difference between the general public and political activists, even the cops agree on that!
The general public were not going to IRA briefings and being lied to. They were not being given guarantees that, this that and the other would never happened when in some instances it actually had.
A lot of decent people didn't see through the spin.

Henry JoY said...

DaithiD

Certain members of the Provisionals leadership coveted the SDLP's clothes in the North and aspired to eventually stripping Fianna Fail too in the Free State. In order to effect the theft they embarked on the armalite and ballot box twin strategy. Then they ditched the armalite.

They brought the majority of activists with them, increased their vote In both jurisdictions. They planned to sit in government in both states by 2016 and that's not impossible (even if it's improbable).

Some achievement for those who masterminded and executed the scheme.

'Look where we've ended up, look at all we've achieved' they'll tell us with their chests puffed out. 'Ok, it's not the original destination of The Irish Republic but look how much progress we've made .... look how far we've come.'

People and activists in the main still continue to swallow it whole. Wait to you see the Free State President (who's own father was sentenced to death by the Free State) and Marty Broy McGuiness tripin' and bowin' before her royal majesty ... and all the oohing and aahing from around the country and indeed the world!

Its so incredulous an outcome who'd have believed if they'd been forewarned?

The truth is very few did and simplistic as all that sounds it's at the heart of the answer ... Adams had sidelined most influential opponents including Ivor Bell by this time. It's true that some didn't want to believe others simply couldn't (Mickey McKevitt)... in the late eighties the country was awash with arms and munitions ... activists found it almost impossible to believe the war could or would be wound down to facilitate an unfavourable political settlement.

Tain Bo said...

Daithi,

it is a very open-ended overview at the time of writing I was just attempting to condense a long narrative down to pivotal points.

I think the Armalite and ballot box policy is what kept the people behind SF as years past it became more of the politics and less of the Armalite.

By 98 the hype of peace was firmly cemented perhaps in great haste as the process has yet to find solid ground. The relative peace was packaged as a victory for republicans and Adams & Co. still sell it as such in fact it is one of their few key arguments that anyone republican who disagrees with them is automatically is labeled as anti-peace.

I can’t say for sure but I would believe that the vast majority of republicans who follow SF refuse or can’t come to part with any of the SF spin.
Perhaps we overlook the fact that there is no solid republican opposition which leaves the door wide open for SF to continue collecting the vote.

As for a reason we missed the obvious it was hiding in plain sight we were too busy watching the Brits to notice what was going on.
What we don’t hear much about from the SF camp is a united Ireland and over time the more we dig into the narrative the more holes become apparent.

The problem contemporary republicanism has no true identity a weakness that is clearly exploited.
It is no surprise SF can sell their brand as anti-treaty-republicans cannot find common ground essentially that is all that is on offer to republicans who wish to vote.

DaithiD said...

Henry Joy+ Nuala, its not just a case of being forewarned of the outcome. Take the present day. If the present outcome is incongruous to where people truly believed we would be after 15-20 years of peace, there would surely be some negative and observable effect on Sinn Fein, and Adams in particular. I may be entirely wrong in expecting this, so I won’t argue the points I have already answered.
David, I had wasted many good years getting mixed up with the SWP and their affiliates. I’ve been clean for nearly ten years now.

Fionnuala Perry said...

DaithiD
In relation to a negative impact on Sinn Fein. Not necessarily! From the mid seventies there was a peace at any price movement formed called the Peace People.
That peace at any price movement was subsidised to the hilt by British policy makers here.
Peace meant everything! It didn't matter about the 'big picture' nor justice, truth and any sort of freedom was on the back burner. The small prints of jobs, investment and IRA leaders profiteering were more tangible.
In the battle of hearts and minds £ signs won the day.

Henry JoY said...

You pose a good question DaaithiD.

There's nought so strange as folks or so it superficially appears ... one explanation might be that we are ignoring the affiliation needs of the masses? Best guess is that the esteem and affiliation needs of many are bound up in continued identification with the Provisional herd.
Affiation needs take precedent over self actualisation (keeps religions and cults going; so it's not surprising that some appear deficient in their critical appraisal of Adams & Co.

I think Ken Wilber is right when he says that we don't transcend such needs exclusively but rather we transcend and include. Hence we now hang out around the Quil (lol)!

DaithiD said...

Nuala, you do make a good case, I had no evidence for my proposal so I won’t defend it to the death.

Fionnuala Perry said...

DaithiD,
Thank God don't have the stamina for another lengthy debate.

Max Headroom said...

Tain Bo

My use of the term Brussels sprouts was meant in the context that it would remind him of himself, but rather than choke on his own legacy I would've preferred he be put off his dinner at the thought of 10 brave men dying rejecting everything he stands for.
You and I know that's not going to happen and that the slimey bastard will be asking for seconds.

Tain Bo said...

Max Headroom,

I caught your drift I just had a laugh as I hadn’t heard that in years.
It seems he cannot do enough to keep on surrendering, is there any other way to explain it other than republican humiliation.
The hunger strikers won’t get a second thought he will keep on believing he is a statesman.

The role he was groomed very well for as he has taking to it like the duck to water.
It does show how far removed SF is from republicanism.
Wishful thinking but you are right he will beg for more why people still vote for SF is a mystery.