Sandy Boyer with a book review that initially featured in The Wild Geese on 29 January 2014.

Walls by Marcello Di Cinitio, a Canadian writer, chronicles the experiences of people living on both sides of walls in Palestine, the U.S./Mexican border, Cyprus, the Western Sahara and of course Belfast.


Di Cintio is a sensitive and engaging guide, full of sympathy for the people he meets. He tells the story largely through brief profiles of individuals on each side of the walls. The book is highly readable and often very insightful, especially if you are new to the particular conflict he is describing. It’s well worth a read.

But readers of The Wild Geese will be primarily interested in De Cintio’s treatment of Northern Ireland. He talked to a wide range of people, Protestant and Catholic, on both sides of the “peace walls” that cut through Belfast neighborhoods. They included community workers, former republican and loyalist paramilitaries, a former member of the Ulster Defense Regiment and community photographers.

Di Cinitio can’t help but like and appreciate the people he meets, describing “their generous Irish character’ and “their quickness to friendship.” He writes that “I don’t know if it is ironic or apt that that those most divided by physical walls, most mutilated by barriers, were the most willing to let me in past their own.”

In the end, he finds it all inexplicable. “I could not see the conflict here with the same clarity with which I viewed the Israeli occupation of Palestine or America’s policies along the Mexican border…In Belfast, though, all the wounds seemed self-inflicted. I couldn’t tell whom to blame.”

Di Cintio falls back on the old cliché that for some inexplicable reason Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland just can’t get along. This view is shared by virtually the entire establishment media to the point where it is treated as an unquestioned, accepted truth. Unlike most of the establishment media, Di Cintio has actually spent time in Northern Ireland.

It may be no coincidence the establishment analysis has little or nothing to say about the British government. They take it for granted that all it is doing in Northern Ireland is keeping Protestants and Catholics from killing each other.

We can either accept that there is something in the DNA of people in Northern Ireland that makes them fight each other, or look for some deeper explanation. That would mean taking a brief look at the actual history of Northern Ireland. The Irish are often accused of taking refuge in the mists of history, but there is no other way to understand the current conflict.

The north of Ireland (there was no Northern Ireland until 1920) was the most rebellious part of the island that clung most tenaciously to the old Gaelic civilization. It was at the center of resistance to the British conquest, especially in Hugh O’Neil’s rebellion of 1594 to 1603.

It was in reaction to this persistent rebelliousness that settlers, predominantly Scottish Presbyterians, were “planted” in the north. They were given the best land with affordable rents and long leases. This provided a level of security and modest prosperity that would have been impossible at home.

The problem was that the native Irish, who happened to be Catholic, had been displaced from these lands and driven to the bogs and the mountain sides. Instead of accepting their dispossession, they waged an intermittent guerilla war against the settlers. Sometimes, as in 1641, there were actual revolts in which settlers lost their lives.

In these circumstances, the settlers were forced to depend on the British government to protect their land and even their lives. They must have felt that being British wasn’t a choice but literally a matter of life and death.

When Belfast became the only part of Ireland to industrialize in the 19th Century, this conflict over land became a conflict over jobs. Protestants were given the most highly skilled, most secure, best paid jobs. Catholics were by and large relocated to unskilled, poorly paid, often insecure jobs. This reality was reflected in periodic communal rioting.

Belfast’s prosperity was inextricably linked to the British market. Its shipyards supplied the British merchant fleet and its linen mills provided clothing for the steadily expanding British market.

Each community developed its own ideology to explain its situation and provide a strategy for future action.

In the Protestant community this became known as unionism. They felt that their liberty and prosperity were entirely dependent on the union with Britain.

Protestants in the North developed a kind of conditional loyalty – they would defend the British government in as long as it guaranteed their superior way of life. If it appeared to desert them, as in the Home Rule crisis, they felt perfectly justified in taking up arms against it.

It became widely accepted in the Protestant community that they were entitled to be better off than their Catholic neighbors. They saw themselves as the guardians of religious liberty and civic virtue. They were a sober, industrious, hardworking, people.

Catholics were seen as ignorant and priest ridden. If they were poor it must be because they were drunken or lazy or just didn’t want to work. This of course has striking echoes in American racism and white supremacy.

Catholics developed a nationalist ideology. They were oppressed by Britain because they were Irish. The only solution was an independent Ireland, free of British rule. Nationalists might disagree on many things – reform or revolution, armed struggle or constitutional politics – but they have shared the same basic goal of an independent Ireland. 

These ideologies have taken on a life of their own, even now when the economic realities underlying their development have largely changed.

The shipyards and the linen mills are practically gone.  But the Protestant community still clings to unionism.

Catholics have significantly narrowed the earnings gap. For the first time in the history of Northern Ireland there is a prosperous Catholic middle class. Still the vast majority of Catholics in the North see themselves as nationalists and vote for nationalist political parties.

This is, of course is a cursory, incomplete, sketch of a larger history. It is meant to suggest an alternative to the establishment line which Di Cintio, through little fault of his own, has bought into. Either Protestants and Catholics are just congenitally incapable of getting on with one another or there must be a deeper explanation like the one I have outlined here.

Marcello Di Cintio, 2013, Walls – Travels Along The Barricades Soft Skull Press: New York. ISBN-10: 159376524X. Price $16.95

Why Can't Protestants and Catholics Get Along?

Sandy Boyer with a book review that initially featured in The Wild Geese on 29 January 2014.

Walls by Marcello Di Cinitio, a Canadian writer, chronicles the experiences of people living on both sides of walls in Palestine, the U.S./Mexican border, Cyprus, the Western Sahara and of course Belfast.


Di Cintio is a sensitive and engaging guide, full of sympathy for the people he meets. He tells the story largely through brief profiles of individuals on each side of the walls. The book is highly readable and often very insightful, especially if you are new to the particular conflict he is describing. It’s well worth a read.

But readers of The Wild Geese will be primarily interested in De Cintio’s treatment of Northern Ireland. He talked to a wide range of people, Protestant and Catholic, on both sides of the “peace walls” that cut through Belfast neighborhoods. They included community workers, former republican and loyalist paramilitaries, a former member of the Ulster Defense Regiment and community photographers.

Di Cinitio can’t help but like and appreciate the people he meets, describing “their generous Irish character’ and “their quickness to friendship.” He writes that “I don’t know if it is ironic or apt that that those most divided by physical walls, most mutilated by barriers, were the most willing to let me in past their own.”

In the end, he finds it all inexplicable. “I could not see the conflict here with the same clarity with which I viewed the Israeli occupation of Palestine or America’s policies along the Mexican border…In Belfast, though, all the wounds seemed self-inflicted. I couldn’t tell whom to blame.”

Di Cintio falls back on the old cliché that for some inexplicable reason Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland just can’t get along. This view is shared by virtually the entire establishment media to the point where it is treated as an unquestioned, accepted truth. Unlike most of the establishment media, Di Cintio has actually spent time in Northern Ireland.

It may be no coincidence the establishment analysis has little or nothing to say about the British government. They take it for granted that all it is doing in Northern Ireland is keeping Protestants and Catholics from killing each other.

We can either accept that there is something in the DNA of people in Northern Ireland that makes them fight each other, or look for some deeper explanation. That would mean taking a brief look at the actual history of Northern Ireland. The Irish are often accused of taking refuge in the mists of history, but there is no other way to understand the current conflict.

The north of Ireland (there was no Northern Ireland until 1920) was the most rebellious part of the island that clung most tenaciously to the old Gaelic civilization. It was at the center of resistance to the British conquest, especially in Hugh O’Neil’s rebellion of 1594 to 1603.

It was in reaction to this persistent rebelliousness that settlers, predominantly Scottish Presbyterians, were “planted” in the north. They were given the best land with affordable rents and long leases. This provided a level of security and modest prosperity that would have been impossible at home.

The problem was that the native Irish, who happened to be Catholic, had been displaced from these lands and driven to the bogs and the mountain sides. Instead of accepting their dispossession, they waged an intermittent guerilla war against the settlers. Sometimes, as in 1641, there were actual revolts in which settlers lost their lives.

In these circumstances, the settlers were forced to depend on the British government to protect their land and even their lives. They must have felt that being British wasn’t a choice but literally a matter of life and death.

When Belfast became the only part of Ireland to industrialize in the 19th Century, this conflict over land became a conflict over jobs. Protestants were given the most highly skilled, most secure, best paid jobs. Catholics were by and large relocated to unskilled, poorly paid, often insecure jobs. This reality was reflected in periodic communal rioting.

Belfast’s prosperity was inextricably linked to the British market. Its shipyards supplied the British merchant fleet and its linen mills provided clothing for the steadily expanding British market.

Each community developed its own ideology to explain its situation and provide a strategy for future action.

In the Protestant community this became known as unionism. They felt that their liberty and prosperity were entirely dependent on the union with Britain.

Protestants in the North developed a kind of conditional loyalty – they would defend the British government in as long as it guaranteed their superior way of life. If it appeared to desert them, as in the Home Rule crisis, they felt perfectly justified in taking up arms against it.

It became widely accepted in the Protestant community that they were entitled to be better off than their Catholic neighbors. They saw themselves as the guardians of religious liberty and civic virtue. They were a sober, industrious, hardworking, people.

Catholics were seen as ignorant and priest ridden. If they were poor it must be because they were drunken or lazy or just didn’t want to work. This of course has striking echoes in American racism and white supremacy.

Catholics developed a nationalist ideology. They were oppressed by Britain because they were Irish. The only solution was an independent Ireland, free of British rule. Nationalists might disagree on many things – reform or revolution, armed struggle or constitutional politics – but they have shared the same basic goal of an independent Ireland. 

These ideologies have taken on a life of their own, even now when the economic realities underlying their development have largely changed.

The shipyards and the linen mills are practically gone.  But the Protestant community still clings to unionism.

Catholics have significantly narrowed the earnings gap. For the first time in the history of Northern Ireland there is a prosperous Catholic middle class. Still the vast majority of Catholics in the North see themselves as nationalists and vote for nationalist political parties.

This is, of course is a cursory, incomplete, sketch of a larger history. It is meant to suggest an alternative to the establishment line which Di Cintio, through little fault of his own, has bought into. Either Protestants and Catholics are just congenitally incapable of getting on with one another or there must be a deeper explanation like the one I have outlined here.

Marcello Di Cintio, 2013, Walls – Travels Along The Barricades Soft Skull Press: New York. ISBN-10: 159376524X. Price $16.95

48 comments:

  1. I have not got a sectarian bone in my body-how many have said this - myself included-but many in the PUL community have a different view on the way the Republican war was fought although they can hardly preach-but some of my heros growing up we're not of the Catholic faith like Wolfe Tone and James Connolly-did the
    PUL have the same love for Their Catholic heros to the same extend-

    Sectarianism was seen as a Brit word / tactic like the word terrorism which they used in Ireland a long time before the world entered the war on terror-more peace walls or walls to save us from Sectarianism are going up yet the one person who pushed Sectarianism the most over the last 50 years Ian Paisley has lost both his church and political party-which shows in the long run that that the rabble rousers lose out in the end-

    Catholics and Protestants can get along with each other whilst on holidays abroad-who can forget that rabble rouser of today Bryson dressed up in green white and orange in Spain-Would it be cheaper to ship us all abroad for 50 weeks of the year on combined holidays than spend billions putting up walls and fighting Sectarianism-

    ReplyDelete
  2. Sectarianism has been the most stable ingredient in the foundation and maintenance of this place, the orange card has been played by big house unionism and now their successors the dup in keeping control of their community and therefore power, distractions like the "fleg" dispute and marching keep the communities divided and distracted long enough to allow the upcoming elections to take place and return these useless carpetbaggers back into their cushy money spinning positions ,quisling $inn £eind included here, then when the bums are back on the seats of cronyism austerity will hit the plebs and irrespective of religion or none it will be brutal,the brits worked hard to portray what went on here as nothing more than a sectarian squabble and it looks very much like they have succeeded,another distraction and a failure to address the root cause cause of conflict here and that is as we all know the British occupation of this part of Ireland,

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  3. Mickey,

    The article was well constructed and unbiased a realistic attempt at understanding the divisions.

    “This is, of course is a cursory, incomplete, sketch of a larger history. It is meant to suggest an alternative to the establishment line which Di Cintio, through little fault of his own, has bought into. Either Protestants and Catholics are just congenitally incapable of getting on with one another or there must be a deeper explanation like the one I have outlined here.”

    It is definitely a complex interesting study one book I will definitely put on the read list.
    I don’t think he is looking to point fingers or looking to shelter blame in one camp or the other.

    My opinion on Paisley wouldn’t change as he is guilty of over indulging and with vigor promoting sectarian strife and in today’s terms his hate speech would not fly by he used his Bible to mislead the Protestant people and some still hold firmly to the belief he done nothing wrong.

    As for the PUL their view and fear is just as genuine as our own as republicanism was threatening their superiority which is a Protestant Ulster for a Protestant people.
    And why would they not feel superior as every Brit government from partition fostered that hatred as political expediency using it to subdue and oppress nationalists and republicans in the north.
    The other most acceptable act of sectarianism comes from the Royal Family which forbids Catholics from marrying into their anti Catholic tradition.
    With a sectarian royal family is it any wonder Protestants like Paisley would do nothing but promote it.
    Sectarianism exists along with racism and other forms of selective oppression.

    The division walls have nothing to do with peace and the folks who look out their windows and have to endure the uncertainty of the imaginary enemy on both sides hardly live in peace.
    Unfortunately there are misguided youths on both sides who enhance the fear with throwing stones or worse petrol bombs only reinforce the need for these walls of division.
    This is a joke as it is the best British solution to further alienate communities by building oppressive barriers in working class areas.

    Sectarianism is curable especially today were Protestant working class people suffer much the same problems as Catholics
    The people that live along the walls deserve a better living standard without these walls. I don’t believe they offer much in the way of peace of mind as they are more likely to stimulate fear and depression.

    It is no wonder the author is confused as far as the world knows we are at peace yet the division walls would tell a different story and on both sides the families have a right to feel fearful with hoodlums attacking and intimidating them.

    They are not spending millions combating sectarianism they are spending money promoting division and those that suffer are those unfortunate to be trapped behind the walls

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  4. im a bit racist and sectarian to be honest , maybe its somethin to do with the relentless genocide inflicted on the gaels. sayin that 43 years livin in the free state, going against the grain by being a republican, im beginning to seriously dislike most of the irish now - gombeen me feiners, sleeveens and shoneens whod sell their mothers. i will be fluent in my native tongue by the time i die because i want to go down into the earth as a gael and not an 'irish'man. im goin to buy a small field and build a peace wall around it and fu*k the english irish prods catholics, the hole lot of ye are colosal wan*ers and none of ye will be welcome in my country.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Grouch are you Larry reincarnated I,ve got a small field in Dun na Gall I,m gonna branch out from sheep shaggin to chickens free range of course no walls for my babies,

    ReplyDelete
  6. Sectarianism is a human condition, to rid people of sectarianism would be to rid them of human nature. we are all pack animals and haven't evolved by it. sectarianism isn't the problem. Colonialism was and is the problem. Sadly there are those among us republicanism and loyalist who love our masters no matter what and refuse to look past our own mind set.

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  7. Grouch,

    why not go underground with a bunker that way when your number is up you can save yourself the trip of going down into the earth.
    Definitely not for me a quick toasting and my ashes can scatter in the winds.
    Curious will your new country have the internet?

    ReplyDelete
  8. David Higgins,

    Colonialism and imperialism is responsible for much strife and destruction.
    Sectarianism is an evil of religion where man feels it is the right of one religion to crush the other.

    As for animals they unlike humans kill for survival Chimps are known for killing rival Chimps over territory but in general animals will avoid confrontation if possible.
    Humans kill for any reason and in revolution will rise up to kill their masters only to find they are now the masters.
    A nation is only as stable as the divisions within its population rather than displace our masters we end up fighting ourselves.

    With close to 7 billion people one thing is for sure the business of war will increase and the true masters of Bankers and Financiers’ shall gladly fund it with the understanding there is great profit in human misery and destruction.

    ReplyDelete
  9. the independent republic of saordonia will be a bit like north korea, but at least i'll only have myself to dictate to, marty - i dont know who larry is but i like the sound of him, also - is ur field in dun na gall overlooked by 'republican' holiday homes, tain bo - ur after giving me an idea with that bunker, i cant believe i never thought of that, and yes i will hav the net because i love the odd rant, id go mad if i didnt have an aul rant, well madder anyway

    ReplyDelete
  10. Tain bo, its true animals kill for survival but that's the consciousness level their at, It's also true financiers will always profit off human misery in a weird way they see the status quo as the survival of their decadent lifestyle. Although you can't compare the two it's all about interpretation of existence.
    I am reading quantum mechanics at the minute, the measurement problem, how particles react differently if they are observed. It has lead some physicists to believe we live in holographic universe and life is just consciousness experiencing itself from an individualistic perspective using this anatomical structure as a vessel and maybe that's it Tain bo maybe we've not fully evolved from a consciousness angle.
    Since that can't be tested from an empirical viewpoint we'll stick with the here and now. I have no problem with sectarianism on the surface, if people hate me because i was raised a catholic fine it was when it's becomes state ideology it's a problem.
    I don't see how you can ever get rid of sectarianism it's everywhere my granny when she was here the nicest woman alive in my opinion used to say when she saw the orange walk there the cripples going to lourdes, my granda a great big man. every time you made a mistake he'd say stop acting like a protestant. my point is decent people have a racist undertone i believe it's part of the current psycological make up.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Guys, please ask yourselves if you are - in the final analysis - Socialists, or Nationalists, or Catholics?

    If you are primarily socialists, would not the United Kingdom offer you a greater chance of socialism than Ireland? Since you all insist on being separate from the UK, I assume you are not primarily socialists.

    So then, is it Nationalism or Catholicism that drives you? Would you choose to live in a United Ireland that was very open/influenced by Protestantism, or a UK that was converted to Catholicism?

    Are you primarily Nationalist or Catholic?

    If you want to hold on to both Nationalism and Socialism, then would it not be more honest to describe yourselves as Nationalist Socialists, instead of using the Socialist label?

    Or am I missing something?




    ReplyDelete
  12. Our failure to 'get along' is nothing to do with the British State occupying Ireland. It is in the here and now that we have our relationships.

    I can only speak of what I know - my own heart and the 60+ years I've known my fellow PULs. The religion or lack of it in my neighbour is NOT what we object to.

    It is the threat they may pose to our freedom - to our civil and religious liberty - that is the problem. Let that threat vanish, so too will sectarian/ethnic fears.

    All Irish Nationalism/Republicanism has offered us was either an Irish Catholic State or an Irish Socialist State. Please try to understand why we both fear and reject both, for history has shown us how both Catholic and Socialist States work out for civil and religious liberty.

    Try offering a state that would respect our ethnic and religious differences, and you might get somewhere.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Wolfsbane, National socialism has a bad ring to it from a historical context. I understand puls being wary of an catholic state or a socialist state and not wanting an ideology forced upon you i have empathy with your argument however it seems one sided where is your empathy for catholics, socialists, republicans etc who don't want to live under this current statelet?

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  14. Wolfsbane.The religion of my neighbours is NOT what we object to..As a 60plus you must remember the rev ian shouting neighbours adresses out to be burned or a gang roaming belfast cutting peoples throats hardly love thy neighbour.what do you object to.

    ReplyDelete
  15. David said:
    'it seems one sided where is your empathy for catholics, socialists, republicans etc who don't want to live under this current statelet?'

    Yes, it was one-sided - as I was only addressing that issue. But I do agree with you that we PULs must empathise with 'catholics, socialists, republicans etc who don't want to live under this current statelet'.

    We must change the status quo to one we can both be happy to live in. I don't blame you guys - of whatever label - for wanting something much better than the NI of the past provided. It was a poor compromise between Britishness and Irishness, to avoid a civil war.

    Now we need to work out a better one - not seek to impose the old options.

    All suggestions welcome!

    ReplyDelete
  16. wolfsbane, i describe myself as a gael - that tribe that were nearly genocided off the face of the earth.

    how did the 6 county statelet fare with regards to civil and religious liberty? when people demanded civil rights they got battered and burned off the streets.

    "in the final analysis" - God will tell me what i was am will be

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  17. david higgins, i like the cut of ur jib, you were the only one to comment on US constitution blog, everyone should forget about ireland and all our woes for the moment and get educated about what is happening to the republic that inspired the united irishmen. we will be going around in circles unless republicans in ireland realise there is more to republicanism than ireland.

    ReplyDelete

  18. It doesn't matter at the end of the day if you are green, orange..Irish or British. We all eat , shit & sleep the same. And as marty has said countless times on this blog..The minute the tory cuts strike home (they will very soon<--Stormount can't afford to pay a 5 million pound fine every month for not implenting them much longer). The the shit will hit the fan for lots of people and it wont matter one iota if you are black, white or other. Everyone (Joe Public) will be quids out..And I am with his line of thought in that during the elections, things will be back doored in..

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  19. Grouch,

    You in the right place you have to be a wee bit mad to rant on the trials of the Gaels.
    Going underground makes sense as those wee spy drones would fly over your independent country and violate your airspace.
    If they can’t see you they won’t bother you glad you will still have the net as we need all the mad men to start a new campaign rant the Brits out.

    You have me in stitches with some of your comments.

    ReplyDelete
  20. +
    Wolfesbane,

    On this one my hands are tied behind my back not through ignorance as I have and still do study religion though don’t subscribe.

    I understand why people believe and try and respect their beliefs. My problem is that religions are being used as engines to railroad respective communities.
    If we put it in proper context both religions have been used by politicians and the more militant minded in our society for political expediency and at times extreme violence.
    I know some protestants who practice their faith on par with some Catholics I know both sets reject violence.

    The problem is we have been force feed the labels of Catholic and Protestant to the point of almost no return.
    This is most noticeable in working class and socially and economically deprived areas.
    The war chant has been facilitated since partition the Taigs are trying to take our jobs and the Prods get all the decent jobs.
    Now that playing field is changing so are the war chants, primarily as the job market is slim pickings.

    I view myself as a republican and firmly believe in the separation of church and state. I have no will nor ever held any desire to force anyone into an Irish Catholic state.
    The lull in the troubles has presented us with an opportunity along with the internet we can now get a better understanding of our divisions.

    Militant loyal-ism is like its counterpart militant republicanism is too afraid to let go of violent tradition.

    I don’t believe the union is in any danger it might have to suffer a few changes but if we want peace then both communities need to give and take a little.

    ReplyDelete
  21. David Higgins,

    True to a point but as we continue to evolve they do also this is evident with some species using tools to reach food and also have complex language.

    I think those amongst the readership who believe in the creator might dispute Quantum theory I on the other hand have no problem with it as I prefer the mathematical world.
    I sincerely doubt we have evolved that much the potential of the human brain has not been high on the list of understanding though neuroscience is making great advances.
    The conscious mind and the subconscious could be in line with a holographic universe.
    We are primarily a visual species which alone is fascinating as to how we collect information and process it.

    There are many things that we cannot prove yet (and barring a 3rd world nuclear war) that will change artificial intelligence will continue to expand which will enhance human intelligence and perhaps in time the sub-atomic world will be as common as the physical world we know.

    Back to reality sectarianism is manmade religious disease that throughout the history of religion spreads like cancer.
    The state will exploit this as it always does knowing that religious fervor is easy to corrupt which is hard to understand as the in name only people will fight, kill, and destroy for something they hold little knowledge of and even less belief in.

    This usually takes place with groups as it is rare that individual acts of sectarianism take place. Replace the group with a mob then the scale of hatred grows as a collective. Which is a common phenomenon as even rational people caught up in a mob mentality will act as such.
    Whereas the same people when alone or in a small group would not consider the same actions.

    This is a failure of the church to condemn sectarianism and teach religion as it is written. Would it be unreasonable to suggest that the Church(s) might quietly approve of this form of dedication to the respective faiths?
    In times of religious strife do congregations grow in number is it something that is exploited in the war of the faiths?

    After all with the massed no longer illiterate we can decide if religion is for us or not and that is something religion does not like and unbelievers are just lost sheep guided by Satan.
    We may not be able to eliminate sectarianism but we can challenge it and make the effort to stifle its growth.

    ReplyDelete
  22. I have to emphasize with grouch, not because he is an honest bigot but because he refuses to buy into the wholesale myth that everything is getting better. Why wouldn't he want to learn Irish and bunker down, Catholics and Protestants used to be people, with common languages, and intermixed clans, and then along came the crown and along came the vatican. I always thought that Protestants and Catholics always got along except for the obvious roll call times, like on relaxed outings to the city center, or at shopping excursions. But now that the Americans and the Europeans and labeling us as sectarian incomprehendable thugs what hope is there for us. We'll just have to take their shite, accept their policies, blame ourselves and promote their agendas.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Wolfsbane,

    “We must change the status quo.”

    I couldn’t agree more as I have no faith in Marty McGuiness or Peter Robinson.
    We are basically at a stalemate and with the misfortune of some being locked in the past finding an agreeable path forward can only be achieved through open and honest debate.
    They can’t agree on simple issues of flags and parades how can we trust them to deal with serious issues.

    Simple solution put the fag back up and the OO agree to halt contentious parades.

    I think the old home grown punk band Still Little Fingers said it best “an alternative Ulster” which seems feasible unless those on the hill dictate otherwise or the militants decide to hammer it out again.

    The major stumbling block will come from the Brit government and how much they can cheat the north out of much needed investment.
    If they keep cutting more and more away chances are we will be back at each other’s throats.

    We already know the result of that as we lived it with the right effort and directions we can possible avoid making that a thing of the past.

    ReplyDelete
  24. to Wolfsbane, I have to agree with you for the most part. Failed states, and no clear options. That's partly because "peasants" don't get to make the options either in peace or war. There was a hope that this problem would be solved by having a patrial republic but all revolutionary thought in southern Ireland ended somewhere in the middle of Easter week 1916. Likewise in northern Ireland what we got from the non Catholic community has been less than inspiring in anybody's estimation. Namely a deference to British conservatives that care nothing about true cultural identity and everything about selfish party politics. Why doesn't the non Catholic community embrace the parts of it's culture and history that are more than just simply a total rejection of catholicism and catholics. As far as ancestry is concerned weren't the Scots originally from Ireland who displaced the Picts and Norse. In language aren't our respective dialects traditionally more similar than any others, and our climates and our characters more similar than those found elsewhere. There was a time that Presbyterians were treated as badly as catholics, and protestants have been sold out in many ways and at many times by Westminster, so why not can't non Catholic communities not reject Orangeism as the ne plus ultra for NI and let Britain build something positive for a change, or better still build it yourselves along with your neighbors. If protestant people are stuck with the notion that what makes them valid is catholic opposition then there probably will never be peace whilst the present British establishment is in power.

    ReplyDelete
  25. sean laig, i resent being called an honest bigot, ive never been honest in my life. great book - strangers at home by murt macgarraidhe. the gaels are comin back and god help the irish numptys. the reason why the irish are so fu*ked up now is their gaelic spirit was extinguished by relentless genocide over centuries. the only way to cope with drones and cctv and spying is to live openly and not engage in anything like armed struggle, they are terrified of sovereign minds not armalites or bombs. they are terified of the coming gaels. the gaels will show no mercy to the freestaters who got canons from the brits to blow mellows (a true gael) out of the fourcourts. none. deaf bastards anyway. we will intern the lot of them and get them hearing aids.

    ReplyDelete
  26. grouch said:
    'wolfsbane, i describe myself as a gael - that tribe that were nearly genocided off the face of the earth.'

    Yes, a lot of tragedy happened to both our tribes.

    'how did the 6 county statelet fare with regards to civil and religious liberty? when people demanded civil rights they got battered and burned off the streets.'

    Indeed. Discrimination by the majority (North and South) was a feature of our past. But no reason to volunteer to get more of it in the future!

    '"in the final analysis" - God will tell me what i was am will be'

    True. That will be the most serious judgement we will all face. But I was refering to our present need to recognise who we think we are, before devising a policy to further our interests. It will save a lot of self-delusion.

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  27. billy brooks said:
    'Wolfsbane.The religion of my neighbours is NOT what we object to..As a 60plus you must remember the rev ian shouting neighbours adresses out to be burned or a gang roaming belfast cutting peoples throats hardly love thy neighbour.what do you object to.'

    Being a country-boy, I didn't witness the initial trouble in Belfast - but I doubt Paisley would have been exposed at the front as you allege.

    But I see your point - What is it the PULs were objecting to when they resorted to violence? The answer - the threat of being forced into an Irish Catholic State. The fear may have been exploited by Paisley & Co., but it was genuine and had a reasonable basis.

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  28. Tain Bo said:
    '+Wolfesbane,
    I understand why people believe and try and respect their beliefs. My problem is that religions are being used as engines to railroad respective communities.'

    Yes, it can happen. Any difference can be used. Race, class, ideology, religion, etc.

    'If we put it in proper context both religions have been used by politicians and the more militant minded in our society for political expediency and at times extreme violence.
    I know some protestants who practice their faith on par with some Catholics I know both sets reject violence.'

    Indeed.

    'The problem is we have been force feed the labels of Catholic and Protestant to the point of almost no return.
    This is most noticeable in working class and socially and economically deprived areas.
    The war chant has been facilitated since partition the Taigs are trying to take our jobs and the Prods get all the decent jobs.
    Now that playing field is changing so are the war chants, primarily as the job market is slim pickings.'

    I say that the label didn't really matter - whether one used Catholic/Protestant or Nationalist/Unionist or Gael/Planter, it was essentially a us/them because of the threat to impose a UI on one side.

    The labels could have just as easily been Muslim/Hindu or Israeli/Arab, with one side looking of absorb the minority into its domain.

    'I view myself as a republican and firmly believe in the separation of church and state.'

    Great!

    'I have no will nor ever held any desire to force anyone into an Irish Catholic state.'

    Even greater!

    'The lull in the troubles has presented us with an opportunity along with the internet we can now get a better understanding of our divisions.'

    Agreed. We need to stop just speaking to our side, and listen to how the other side sees it.

    'Militant loyal-ism is like its counterpart militant republicanism is too afraid to let go of violent tradition.'

    Perhaps - but I think a lot of it is not die-hard patriotism, just plain gangsterism.

    'I don’t believe the union is in any danger it might have to suffer a few changes but if we want peace then both communities need to give and take a little.'

    Amen to that!

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  29. Tain Bo said:
    'We are basically at a stalemate and with the misfortune of some being locked in the past finding an agreeable path forward can only be achieved through open and honest debate.'

    Indeed.

    'They can’t agree on simple issues of flags and parades how can we trust them to deal with serious issues.'

    To be fair to them, they have to get re-elected, and the line they spun to be elected in the first place has conditioned significant parts of their electoral base against such compromise. They have to carefully unpick that.

    Fear is still the gut-motivator (at least in Unionism). Not as much now the fear of being forced into a UI, but the fear of steady erosion of our British/Ulster culture. That is seen as the new way Republicans intend to conquer.

    Yes, before you rightly object, it is a very feeble way for mature folk to react. But most Unionists are not political thinkers and have depended on their leaders to do the thinking for them.

    'Simple solution put the fag back up and the OO agree to halt contentious parades.'

    That would certainly be a great start! We could then work out an agreed policy on flags and parades. But I fear we may have to do the policy without the initial gestures, unless SF and the OO are braver than I think.

    'The major stumbling block will come from the Brit government and how much they can cheat the north out of much needed investment.
    If they keep cutting more and more away chances are we will be back at each other’s throats.
    We already know the result of that as we lived it with the right effort and directions we can possible avoid making that a thing of the past.'

    I don't know. As long as the deprivation is equally shared across the communities, it should not cause us to bite and devour one another. It is the National Question that distorts and misdirects the social problems, I think.

    We are all big boys now, at least we should be, having learnt from our past youthful follies. We can vote for politicians that will do their best to make NI as prosperous as possible in the circumstances. Or we can just continue the war by politics.

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  30. sean laig said:
    'Why doesn't the non Catholic community embrace the parts of it's culture and history that are more than just simply a total rejection of catholicism and catholics. As far as ancestry is concerned weren't the Scots originally from Ireland who displaced the Picts and Norse.'

    Yea, the Gaelic invaders threw us out. ;0)

    'In language aren't our respective dialects traditionally more similar than any others, and our climates and our characters more similar than those found elsewhere.'

    Indeed. Our Ulsterness is THE place to build our future on.

    'There was a time that Presbyterians were treated as badly as catholics, and protestants have been sold out in many ways and at many times by Westminster, so why not can't non Catholic communities not reject Orangeism as the ne plus ultra for NI'

    Support for the OO is qualified in the PUL community. It is seen as a strength because of its extensive grass-roots membership, but by some as a weakness because of its historic control by old foggies who are political fools.

    'and let Britain build something positive for a change,'

    Hmm. We don't trust Britain to build anything for us. Better they offer ideas and let us do it ourselves.

    'or better still build it yourselves along with your neighbors.'

    Agreed.

    'If protestant people are stuck with the notion that what makes them valid is catholic opposition'

    They're not. That opposition just binds them closer - it does not define their national identity.

    'then there probably will never be peace whilst the present British establishment is in power.'

    Yes, both communities need to feel safe enough to leave the negative reactions aside and see if positive planning for an agreed society can be achieved.

    I have hope the majority of both communities can be led there. We both have a section that is committed to forcing its will on the other - so they have to be persuaded otherwise.

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  31. wolfsbane, self-delusion is a double edged word (word not being a typo for sword), i believe in sovereignty, both for the people of this island and the neighbouring one. all peoples in fact. as in us owning and sharing our resources and not them being syphoned off to the usual elites (who have always divided and conquered by any means necessary) whether they be monarchists, banking cabals or more commonly a mixture of both (shell). not interested in any ideology as such, dont care if im called a nationalist socialist or catholic (i suppose theres a bit of all 3 in me) thats why im a republican, 'we the people' versus them the elites. thats what it boils down to for me anyway. if people on this island and the neighbouring one are loyal to those elites, how much of that is down to fear of them, ignorance of who and what they really are and conditioning by them. religion isnt the root cause of conflict here, greed and the will to dominate taken to extremes is. did you know the queen is a descendent of dracula and her surname is saxe coburg gotha. her greek husbands surname is battenberg from the house of schleiswig-holstein-soderburg-von glucksburg. whens the last time there was a british arse on the british throne. God save our german-transylvanian queen indeed.

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  32. wolfsbane, i 've always thought the unionist fear of an catholic state irrational, don,t get me wrong domination should be opposed catholic or otherwise. I just feel unionist were duped by their leaders over the whole vatican domination agenda like all scaremongering it was about control through fear., but then us republicans can't talk about being duped by our leaders. I like reading your comments wolfsbane we're never going to agree on some issues but it's good to hear loyalists fears and hopes and understand we're not as diametrically opposed as we like to make out.
    Grouch, your the main man on here intelligent, funny and straight to the point.
    Tain bo cheers for the reply quantum mechanics and creationism have their similarities both agree on a matrix behind the matter.

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  33. From Sean Laig

    Shit I'm stumped again..... but in response to Wolfebane, thanks for your consideration, I'll have to read up more on the history of Picts, Norse and Scots, but I sure am glad you've no ancestral ties to those Roman fuckers as I don't. ----On the point of, ,"Support for the OO is qualified in the PUL community. It is seen as a strength because of its extensive grass-roots membership, but by some as a weakness because of its historic control by old foggies who are political fools. " ---I'd like to think this is accurate. The PUL has been dominated by the OO where the masses are pulled in but the elites (foreign and otherwise) call the shots. Even today it looks like that, and probably is, the PUL has been characterized and stifled by what some called themselves "superiors". I wish you luck with an independent and unmolested path to an egalitarian society.

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  34. From Sean Laig

    Shit I'm stumped again.....to grouch....Thanks for the book recommendation you had me worried there I thought you were going to take a leaf out of Devalera debacle and ban books in your bunker. I don't know about this argument on armed struggle v non armed struggle. I've always looked on the argument as being a distraction in and of itself. Some said it with an angry word and some said it with an Armalite" Oscar Somebody. I keep myself right as I'm sure you do but I'm not going say what Paddy or Billy or going to do, and I'm not going to blame them. As I said the situation has been charged up by the Crown, the Vatican, and now the fukin Yanks, and the Europeans are getting their piece I think there's not much hope for real peace to prevail. Though it is sickening that the usual suspects end up winning and losing.

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  35. From Sean Laig

    To Wolfesbane...... "
    'Simple solution put the flag back up and the OO agree to halt contentious parades.' ", and "
    'The major stumbling block will come from the Brit government and how much they can cheat the north out of much needed investment.

    If they keep cutting more and more away chances are we will be back at each other’s throats.
    We already know the result of that as we lived it with the right effort and directions we can possible avoid making that a thing of the past.'

    I don't know. As long as the deprivation is equally shared across the communities, it should not cause us to bite and devour one another. It is the National Question that distorts and misdirects the social problems, I think.

    We are all big boys now, at least we should be, having learnt from our past youthful follies. We can vote for politicians that will do their best to make NI as prosperous as possible in the circumstances. Or we can just continue the war by politics."----All valid points, and no doubt parades for flags deal would ruffle a few feathers and careers but that would only be a cosmetic solution to serious problems, enhancing certain careers over others but doing nothing to promote cross community business and welfare. The British government is cheap and nasty, it gives nothing away for nothing. Each time it invests in our rooftop garden they cover it with blood and blame us for the carnage. They can invest in 'security' or 'peace walls' or 'segregated cultural centers' or 'segregated businesses', but each time they do it we're supposed to become more British than them and more appreciative. The same goes for the Vatican, the Yanks, and the Europeans, their investments will have us contorted beyond recognition. If only they would leave the money at the provincial door with no strings attached, because our rooftop needs years of tlc to blossom. But quite honestly, they are all cheap bastards.

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  36. grouch said:
    ''we the people' versus them the elites. thats what it boils down to for me anyway.'

    Me too.

    So it's a pity that we allow our membership of one community to cause us to neglect the rights of the other. Can 'we the people' not accommodate the two national identities we have, and focus on keeping ourselves as free from our elites as possible?

    'if people on this island and the neighbouring one are loyal to those elites, how much of that is down to fear of them, ignorance of who and what they really are and conditioning by them.'

    I doubt many ordinary folk tug their forelocks anymore. Their loyalty to their respective nations is not a loyalty to their elites. It is just exploited by the elites.

    'religion isnt the root cause of conflict here, greed and the will to dominate taken to extremes is.'

    Glad to hear you say it! I so agree. So often we hear that shoddy analysis from our liberal elites.

    'did you know the queen is a descendent of dracula and her surname is saxe coburg gotha. her greek husbands surname is battenberg from the house of schleiswig-holstein-soderburg-von glucksburg. whens the last time there was a british arse on the british throne. God save our german-transylvanian queen indeed.'

    I'm not a royalist. I'm thankful for any decent measure of freedom and order that royalty has contributed to in the past - not that it was much - but I'd be happy to see QEII the last monarch in the UK.

    But the elites are not all - maybe not even mostly - royals. When the pigs take over the farm, a new elite is born. We the animals have to do our best to keep them in check.





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  37. David Higgins said:
    'wolfsbane, i 've always thought the unionist fear of an catholic state irrational, don,t get me wrong domination should be opposed catholic or otherwise. I just feel unionist were duped by their leaders over the whole vatican domination agenda like all scaremongering it was about control through fear.,'

    If only! Does not the way the Irish State panned out prove my forefathers were right to fear it would be a priest-ridden State?

    If a UI had been truly offering us more civil and religious liberty, it could well have happened back then. The economics would have been, as today in Scotland, the only significant objection.

    'I like reading your comments wolfsbane we're never going to agree on some issues but it's good to hear loyalists fears and hopes and understand we're not as diametrically opposed as we like to make out.'

    Thank you, my friend. Same here.

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  38. AM - thanks for your kind and insightful comments.

    BTW, I apologise for hogging so much of the column inches by my responses to the posts. Sometimes a 'like' function would have done the job, but in its absence I didn't want the guys to think I was neglecting or disrespecting their comments on mine.

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  39. Wolfsbane,

    I only posted them for Sean Laig who had difficulty posting. They weren't my comments. Feel free to hog - space here is limitless!

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  40. fairball to you wolfsbane, very well said, i dont tug my foreskin either, i mean forelock.

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  41. Sean Laig,

    I might be reading this wrong but I said the following:

    “Simple solution put the flag back up and the OO agree to halt contentious parades.' ", and "
    'The major stumbling block will come from the Brit government and how much they can cheat the north out of much needed investment.”

    Whether investment was dispersed fairly or not was not my point there will always be a certain amount of “acceptable” inequality as the system is geared as such.
    Economical deprivation is and has been a way of life something that is on the rise in working class Protestant areas.

    Flags and parades are doing a good job of deflecting attention away from the failure of our politicians to fight for a better share of the British economy.
    Not that there would be much to fight about as there is nothing in the budget to relieve the social stresses of these areas.

    The only thing the Brits seem happy to increase is the security budget which our politicians make no objections to as they are happy to fly by unnoticed.

    The reason I said put the flag back up is simple no one noticed it before and most people I talk to about the flag couldn’t care less if it flies as like most folk we don’t walk about looking up in the air.
    It becomes a bit of a joke on SFs part as they seem to think that lowering the flag is a positive for their camp but the reality is the flag is only a symbol of the institutions they are part of.

    Getting the OO to agree to halt or find alternative routes in contended areas would be a welcomed benefit that would elevate some of the tension and this tension often breaks down to sectarian in nature which dilutes the rights of both communities.

    The OO pull the same stunt and more recently upped the ante to “cultural genocide” which is absurd but enough to force the loyalist militants to do the dirty work for the OO.

    I don’t think there would be any noticeable objections from republicans if the flag was raised again as long as the OO would agree to doing their part in eliminating tensions and taking the simple path of re-routing parades away from bitterly contested junctions.

    Did we really need the Haas talks and wasn’t that just another pantomime for the politicians to waste the tax payers money.
    It was a foregone conclusion they would get nowhere only as they had no intention of finding reasonable agreement to simple issues.

    In my opinion it is just another case of politicians using the reliable bitter divisions and stirring them with a refusal to find acceptable agreement.
    In other words it is essential that they find reasons to keep Catholics and Protestants divided in Northern Ireland it is called job security for them.

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  42. Wolfsbane,

    That is part of the problem as we keep electing those who know when the chips are low just how to manipulate the old orange and green cards.
    It seems at times they are more than willing to use division to disguise their own purpose.

    It is not so much a feeble defense but one that seems could have no end. The Union is safe and will remain safe if the trend towards peace continues to grow.
    As a republican it is not easy to accept but logic would dictate otherwise as we lost the long campaign which for many anti treaty republicans would parallel the new PUL fear that your traditional way of life is eroding.

    SF successfully erased traditional republicanism not so much the violent part but the more important political identity.

    The same argument could be made in the republican camp that not most are political thinkers.
    The Unionists that contribute here do an excellent job in conveying their position yourself and Robert are well respected here and in my opinion Beano Niblock does a great service by sharing his thoughts.

    On the erosion of your British way of life on that one you would have to look across the water as they are the only force that can change traditional PUL as they dictate the laws of change.
    The most visible change being the PSNI blocking loyalists in unlike the RUC but that is hardly at the request of republicanism as they do the same with us down to vindictive harassment of people who don’t fly the SF flag.

    I don’t think SF and the OO should be the end all as both groups are trying to outflank each other and neither is truly representing the issues without bias.
    I believe the SF pushing to lower the union jack was nothing more than an exercise in rubbing it in knowing that this would be more than controversial.

    On the other hand the loyalists took the bait and began the protests but when they became violent that tossed out any argument they had as they were no longer observing a democratic right to protest but falling back on the old solution cause enough trouble and force the concession to have the flag restored that tactic backfired and played right into SFs hands.

    It is the same risk that peaceful parade protests run into as when the violence breaks out it only shows militant loyal-ism at work which increases the tension in republican areas.
    This only highlights not the right to March but the right to continue the old school of thought the right to dominate and dictate.

    As for sharing that always works out with one side blaming the other and when things get bad enough with higher unemployment and fewer prospects for a decent life one section of the community will blame the other and unfortunately now even the immigrants will get caught up in the mix as foreigners taking Northern folks jobs.

    I am weary of politicians and prefer local community interaction it is there at the front lines we have an understanding and if allowed can make change at a local level.

    The long conflict of violence failed both communities we would be foolish to continue the old ways by war by proxy of political entrenchment.

    Either we force the politicians to work or we should vote the lot out and hope some new blood might put aside differences and work for all the people.

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  43. it's surprising to me how much agreement there is in this discussion. I'm surprised with Wolfsbane loyalist affirmation without being royal unduly. Without intending to be patronizing I think that non PUL observers tend to underestimate the intelligence and diversity within working class protestant communities. For obvious reasons of segregation of not knowing what's going on within, and also because of elite dominance sending one only message out. I think there is agreement that the British government has been "unfair" to sizable parts of both communities, and that the Irish government has validated that "unfairness". It seems to me that the British government ruled Ireland and used two cards at least from the early 1700's, namely the orange card and yellow card i.e. the Vatican card to control the catholic community, buying and paying off elites to maintain the union. When separation came about they gave one card to NI and the other card to SI and both states became an exercise in unfairness, not least against their own bases in one way or another. Everyone can see the neglect and distain that each state has for their border areas with the obvious exception of Londonderry and later Derry. Almost as if the territorial fringes were contaminated and culturally or logistically unworthy of investment. The SI government has played the orange card and yellow card in reverse of the British government and doesn't seem to have learn much despite the obvious demise of the catholic church and seems stuck on replacing obvious deference to vaticanism to an more subtle one, as seen by the public television elevation of the Iona Institute, and the failure confiscate church property and power holdings in the light of disastrous pedophile scandals. In the short term public outcry has lessened sectarian differences in SI and made southern cultural and personalities less stark to PUL cultures and personalities but if present trends continue then even on that front we could be back to square one. At the same time the SI government has used the orange card to suppress genuine republican sentiment where it has threatened their "partial" republican power hold. In some ways it would do a lot of good to have the OO march in the SI elite neighborhoods especially where property damage was so contentious in lieu of inner city parades in Portadown or Belfast. With all this in mind should the question be not why can't they, but how do Protestant and Catholics get along at all on non roll call times.

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  44. AM, thanks for the clarification - and encouragement.

    Sean, thank YOU for your kind and insightful comments!

    Tain Bo, your 7.07AM post covers our situation well. The cynical manipulation of fears to bolster electoral support; the unthinking gut reactions by the fearful; the need for the rest of us to educate our communities on this, and offer them a better future.

    I agree that our politicians don't offer much hope and that individuals at the local level have a key role in making the masses think straight. (I still have some hope that some of the politicians might do their duty and lead).

    Sean, Yes, I too am happily surprised at how much agreement exists between us, when our thoughts are carefully set out. Honest exchange of views serves to clarify our understanding of our neighbours and ourselves. AM, Grouch, Sean, Tain Bo, etc. Keep up the good work!

    There's an old proverb that applies to all our lives: 'Too soon old; too late smart'. But we can do what we can, learning from our past mistakes rather than repeating them. We might feel like prophets crying in the wilderness, or catchers in the rye, but God-willing, we can do good to our nation and our neighbours.








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  45. Wolfsbane,

    On this side of the fence since partition we have had to contend with domination. Paisley and his papal conspiracy backfired in some sort of historical Irony SF saved the day for the union.

    The only visible risk to our somewhat normal society is if militant unionism decides to have a go at militant nationalism or vice versa. With the very low key British military presence that only leaves the bitter card of sectarianism which is a destructive dead end for both sides.
    Outside of that the union is safe or safer for the foreseeable future and in my time the only UI
    I will see is a historical map.

    Republicans would do well to remember that many of our founding Fathers were Protestant dissenters who opposed British rule not their neighbours.

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  46. Tain Bo, well said.

    It is the neighbour relationship that counts, not our ethnic origins or aspired-to nation state. Whatever state brings the best of civil and religious liberty and a reasonable standard of living for both communities - that should be our goal. Not imposing our identity on others or profiting at their expense.

    Basic gospel stuff - but gets lost when other loyalties replace 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself'.

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  47. Wolfsbane,

    The Pensive Quill has been is a good example of crossing over the invisible barricades.
    I don’t share the view that it is for disenchanted republicans as that suggestion defeats the purpose of open honest dialogue.

    I am always happy to see posters from the PUL community putting their view forward along with any new faces that are willing to argue the toss.
    Naturally TPQ is subject to getting the odd ding a lings now and then but for the better part the people are genuine and in general accept opposing views.

    At a community level we can learn and find out more about our respective sides even though this is an artificial community it is definitely one that is open to all.

    More importantly it is just ordinary folk expressing thoughts and opinions proving we can navigate the invisible barriers even if it is only to agree to disagree.

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