"Q: What do you say to those people who are unhappy but are pulled the other way by feelings of loyalty?

A: Examine their consciences. Take a good look at what is going on. If they agree - ok. If not then speak out." - Fourthwrite interview with Brendan Hughes

Guest writer Tain Bo with his perspective on the discussion taking place among republicans about the continuing use of physical force.

Altruistic springs to mind when reading the positive contributions made by those who sacrificed and continue to do so in an unselfish manner. Removing all the dressing it is clear that the militants felt undermined when these articles appeared. The fact they were carried in a unionist paper is and was of no consequence. Would they have preferred the individuals acted as a group and prior to dispatching their message have met with the armed factions to inform them of their intentions?

Even if such a meeting took place would the advice be given any extensive consideration or just the lip service acknowledging their honest assessment? I don’t see what a meeting would accomplish apart from giving the militants the heads up and allowing them time to counter with something more substantial than we don’t like a newspaper.

If the articles had been penned by individuals from a lesser involved background would this conversation even be taking place? The only reason is the fact that these well respected republicans carry a lot of weight but more importantly hold the experience to address what they see as a doomed entity.

I doubt there was any expectation other than offering the individual reader an opportunity to determine what meaning the articles have either for, against or indifferent. I don’t see how batting the ball back with the ‘what alternative is there?’ coming from those who penned the articles against the armed factions’ actions.

Is there room for an alternative when the threat of militant republicanism will always sabotage any progressive move inwards towards building political unity?

Reading through Ardoyne Republican’s article which is stuck in the old failed armed struggle language doesn’t really add to the subject. His prejudice against a unionist paper, although denied, would suggest sectarian undertones. My problem is why is there a need to mention the paper that carried the articles at all. Will he hold the same distain for the internet as they have been circulated on the web?  Personally I have greater dislike for the Irish News but that is another story.

On days when I have the time I like to flick through unionist and loyalists publications as it provides me with an insight on how they weigh up their position. To ignore and dismiss their position seems foolish.
The objection that the articles were carried in a unionist paper would be laughable if it was not as serious as it reads of a false authority and suppresses the freedom of discourse. By Ardoyne Republican’s logic republican dialogue is only legitimate when carried in republican publications.

If AR is genuine and does not advocate armed resistance then my question would be why he feels the need to defend the armed factions acting as an informal intermediary. How can the reader determine this is the position of the armed factions and would they indeed prefer to meet with those who disagree with their position?

Is AR stating that the militants hold no other view than force? Is there no subsidiary, non violent plan to be implemented if or when the armed force policy fails or worse is delivered a defeat?

As for his complaint that certain language was used that he finds unfair is that not just milking a dry cow. The language and choice of words is fair as those that penned the articles have no agenda and the only common thread being that they are simply opposed to the present armed actions.

Why raise the issue of national sovereignty when we cannot find common ground to liberate us at a community level? Why use the same excuses that the Provo camp did?

Have we progressed politically when the only consistent factor that is true is the divisions amongst republicans that need to be resolved? Can it make an effort towards unity when some believe that the gun and bomb is the finality even though that method failed? It is past the time that we used our minds and adapted.

Speaking of militants it would appear they have ignored the articles as to date they refuse to release a statement explaining their position regarding the issue. 3rd party go-betweens have a tendency to promote their own view rather than that of the silent armed groups.

Would that action of dismissing the articles to date not cancel the notion that a meeting would have been more productive? I see no in depth counter to the articles and the smokescreen of laying fault with the news paper just adds up to counter failed propaganda.

The only people who benefit from armed force are those on the hill who enjoy publically lambasting the actions of armed force. It strengthens SF’s stranglehold as they glide along, knowing they face no political threat to counter their position. On the one hand they condemn armed force republicans but on the other reap the reward of the divisions in anti-treaty republicanism which they are more than content to exploit.

Recently the cops released another taunt at the militants saying they know who the bomber is in the Kerr case, adding that the militants are teaming up with criminals and they have been following the movements of militants who all report back to Belfast.

That is just the gist of it but the method is highly effective as it puts militants under pressure. How much of this is true? Is any of it true or is its intention to cause disruption of confidence, adding the further insult that they are patient and will play the waiting game with the intention of getting it right?

Getting it right meaning getting solid convictions to further impede the armed factions.

Are they hinting at a militant round up or just bluffing making the militants edgy and playing mind games at a serious level hoping to force the militants to react? In other words they are dictating the pace of the conflict and it is on their terms.

The argument against physical force makes more sense and is more practical. The argument for it is riddled with contradiction and a very weak operating position that lacks confidence which highlights how weak the notion is that this round of physical force will win and deliver us into a united Ireland. No matter how much hype or propaganda applied we all know it cannot achieve the impossible.

If there was popular support for physical force there would be no need to convince people of its necessity as they would be behind it. Without popular support the factions can do little but hope for the tide to turn in their favour.

The British are not going to feed that need as they have taken their previous experience and apply it today. We won’t see the massacres of Ballymurphy or Bloody Sunday being repeated. They won’t employ shoot to kill. In fact I would wager they will try and not shoot any militants, knowing that their old policies failed and garnished sympathetic support.

Unlike militant republicanism, that depends on the old tactic, the British war machine has updated and adapted counter measures that are generally effective in not only depriving physical force republicans of much needed widespread support but have also removed much of their presence which limits possible targets.

They are well ahead on winning the intelligence war and are content directing the cops on how to counter the threat coming from militant quarters.

In a sense the British military position in the north is stronger now than it was when they had garrisons and outposts with a threatening physical presence.

Now they walk amongst us, blended in, effectively containing, controlling and deploying new methods, using sophisticated technology. Can physical force republicans adapt to the ever changing methods deployed against them?

The answer is no. That is why they use proxy bombers and display a lack of control or confidence when having a go. Simply, can militants compete using old failed tactics when the BA is years ahead of them not just in technology but by the methods they use against them right down to mocking them in the media?

The greatest argument against armed struggle is that anti-Treaty-republicanism cannot afford to lose strong political minds to English jails.

They become largely forgotten and the methods used now are by design to break the will of the prisoners. The other largely overlooked issue is the hardship it brings to the families.

Although I disagree with physical force I remain a supporter of the prisoners: a contradiction, but I find it impossible to ignore as there should be no Irish republicans in English jails. To continue with physical force will mean more prisoners and more hardships imposed on their families.

I have a great respect for those who sent a clear and positive message to republicanism. I believe it was done under deep consideration and delivered with the same consideration, injecting some positive hope while encouraging others to take a step back and reflect.

The counter to their well intended message was met with a weak position of demanding an alternative to their own non-option.

I don’t believe the onus should be placed squarely on their shoulders even though they have the potential to be a greater influence for change. It is something all republicans should welcome and consider playing a part of its construction.

I do not see why anyone would require an explanation as the only alternative to violence is to engage in non violent passive resistance by entering into the political arena using political minds to challenge the status quo.

I would assume militants would reject this. So would there be any reasonable point for those former POWs to sit and engage with militants unless the militants would be interested in exploring a way to cease their armed struggle and in time negotiate the release of all prisoners and begin to challenge SF and work from there on re-establishing the lost republican identity.

The long conflict failed and another long conflict is already predestined to meet the same failure.

No View Other than Force


"Q: What do you say to those people who are unhappy but are pulled the other way by feelings of loyalty?

A: Examine their consciences. Take a good look at what is going on. If they agree - ok. If not then speak out." - Fourthwrite interview with Brendan Hughes

Guest writer Tain Bo with his perspective on the discussion taking place among republicans about the continuing use of physical force.

Altruistic springs to mind when reading the positive contributions made by those who sacrificed and continue to do so in an unselfish manner. Removing all the dressing it is clear that the militants felt undermined when these articles appeared. The fact they were carried in a unionist paper is and was of no consequence. Would they have preferred the individuals acted as a group and prior to dispatching their message have met with the armed factions to inform them of their intentions?

Even if such a meeting took place would the advice be given any extensive consideration or just the lip service acknowledging their honest assessment? I don’t see what a meeting would accomplish apart from giving the militants the heads up and allowing them time to counter with something more substantial than we don’t like a newspaper.

If the articles had been penned by individuals from a lesser involved background would this conversation even be taking place? The only reason is the fact that these well respected republicans carry a lot of weight but more importantly hold the experience to address what they see as a doomed entity.

I doubt there was any expectation other than offering the individual reader an opportunity to determine what meaning the articles have either for, against or indifferent. I don’t see how batting the ball back with the ‘what alternative is there?’ coming from those who penned the articles against the armed factions’ actions.

Is there room for an alternative when the threat of militant republicanism will always sabotage any progressive move inwards towards building political unity?

Reading through Ardoyne Republican’s article which is stuck in the old failed armed struggle language doesn’t really add to the subject. His prejudice against a unionist paper, although denied, would suggest sectarian undertones. My problem is why is there a need to mention the paper that carried the articles at all. Will he hold the same distain for the internet as they have been circulated on the web?  Personally I have greater dislike for the Irish News but that is another story.

On days when I have the time I like to flick through unionist and loyalists publications as it provides me with an insight on how they weigh up their position. To ignore and dismiss their position seems foolish.
The objection that the articles were carried in a unionist paper would be laughable if it was not as serious as it reads of a false authority and suppresses the freedom of discourse. By Ardoyne Republican’s logic republican dialogue is only legitimate when carried in republican publications.

If AR is genuine and does not advocate armed resistance then my question would be why he feels the need to defend the armed factions acting as an informal intermediary. How can the reader determine this is the position of the armed factions and would they indeed prefer to meet with those who disagree with their position?

Is AR stating that the militants hold no other view than force? Is there no subsidiary, non violent plan to be implemented if or when the armed force policy fails or worse is delivered a defeat?

As for his complaint that certain language was used that he finds unfair is that not just milking a dry cow. The language and choice of words is fair as those that penned the articles have no agenda and the only common thread being that they are simply opposed to the present armed actions.

Why raise the issue of national sovereignty when we cannot find common ground to liberate us at a community level? Why use the same excuses that the Provo camp did?

Have we progressed politically when the only consistent factor that is true is the divisions amongst republicans that need to be resolved? Can it make an effort towards unity when some believe that the gun and bomb is the finality even though that method failed? It is past the time that we used our minds and adapted.

Speaking of militants it would appear they have ignored the articles as to date they refuse to release a statement explaining their position regarding the issue. 3rd party go-betweens have a tendency to promote their own view rather than that of the silent armed groups.

Would that action of dismissing the articles to date not cancel the notion that a meeting would have been more productive? I see no in depth counter to the articles and the smokescreen of laying fault with the news paper just adds up to counter failed propaganda.

The only people who benefit from armed force are those on the hill who enjoy publically lambasting the actions of armed force. It strengthens SF’s stranglehold as they glide along, knowing they face no political threat to counter their position. On the one hand they condemn armed force republicans but on the other reap the reward of the divisions in anti-treaty republicanism which they are more than content to exploit.

Recently the cops released another taunt at the militants saying they know who the bomber is in the Kerr case, adding that the militants are teaming up with criminals and they have been following the movements of militants who all report back to Belfast.

That is just the gist of it but the method is highly effective as it puts militants under pressure. How much of this is true? Is any of it true or is its intention to cause disruption of confidence, adding the further insult that they are patient and will play the waiting game with the intention of getting it right?

Getting it right meaning getting solid convictions to further impede the armed factions.

Are they hinting at a militant round up or just bluffing making the militants edgy and playing mind games at a serious level hoping to force the militants to react? In other words they are dictating the pace of the conflict and it is on their terms.

The argument against physical force makes more sense and is more practical. The argument for it is riddled with contradiction and a very weak operating position that lacks confidence which highlights how weak the notion is that this round of physical force will win and deliver us into a united Ireland. No matter how much hype or propaganda applied we all know it cannot achieve the impossible.

If there was popular support for physical force there would be no need to convince people of its necessity as they would be behind it. Without popular support the factions can do little but hope for the tide to turn in their favour.

The British are not going to feed that need as they have taken their previous experience and apply it today. We won’t see the massacres of Ballymurphy or Bloody Sunday being repeated. They won’t employ shoot to kill. In fact I would wager they will try and not shoot any militants, knowing that their old policies failed and garnished sympathetic support.

Unlike militant republicanism, that depends on the old tactic, the British war machine has updated and adapted counter measures that are generally effective in not only depriving physical force republicans of much needed widespread support but have also removed much of their presence which limits possible targets.

They are well ahead on winning the intelligence war and are content directing the cops on how to counter the threat coming from militant quarters.

In a sense the British military position in the north is stronger now than it was when they had garrisons and outposts with a threatening physical presence.

Now they walk amongst us, blended in, effectively containing, controlling and deploying new methods, using sophisticated technology. Can physical force republicans adapt to the ever changing methods deployed against them?

The answer is no. That is why they use proxy bombers and display a lack of control or confidence when having a go. Simply, can militants compete using old failed tactics when the BA is years ahead of them not just in technology but by the methods they use against them right down to mocking them in the media?

The greatest argument against armed struggle is that anti-Treaty-republicanism cannot afford to lose strong political minds to English jails.

They become largely forgotten and the methods used now are by design to break the will of the prisoners. The other largely overlooked issue is the hardship it brings to the families.

Although I disagree with physical force I remain a supporter of the prisoners: a contradiction, but I find it impossible to ignore as there should be no Irish republicans in English jails. To continue with physical force will mean more prisoners and more hardships imposed on their families.

I have a great respect for those who sent a clear and positive message to republicanism. I believe it was done under deep consideration and delivered with the same consideration, injecting some positive hope while encouraging others to take a step back and reflect.

The counter to their well intended message was met with a weak position of demanding an alternative to their own non-option.

I don’t believe the onus should be placed squarely on their shoulders even though they have the potential to be a greater influence for change. It is something all republicans should welcome and consider playing a part of its construction.

I do not see why anyone would require an explanation as the only alternative to violence is to engage in non violent passive resistance by entering into the political arena using political minds to challenge the status quo.

I would assume militants would reject this. So would there be any reasonable point for those former POWs to sit and engage with militants unless the militants would be interested in exploring a way to cease their armed struggle and in time negotiate the release of all prisoners and begin to challenge SF and work from there on re-establishing the lost republican identity.

The long conflict failed and another long conflict is already predestined to meet the same failure.

33 comments:

  1. Tain Bo-

    I noticed a few years ago what a great writer / thinker you were along with a few others on the Quill-but I will try to wound your article -

    " it is clear that the militants felt undermined "-

    If they were to busy fighting they would be to busy to worry about anything-they feel undermined because they are to busy doing nothing-

    " these well respected republicans carry a lot of weight "
    We have all put a few pounds on but a few hard liners carry their extra pounds in their pockets-

    I don't subscribe to the argument of trying to stop the militants / dissidents from fighting because they have already agreed to this point from day one-they won't fight they just want ones to ask them to stop doing nothing-good luck with that one-

    ReplyDelete
  2. All this talk about unionist newspapers , can anyone here name me a paper that isnt,including here the Anytout news .they all chase the brits money and regurgitate their shit.
    good post as usual Tain bo a cara, militant republicanism is doing nothing but subsidising the brit security services ,some for monetary gain ,some from a misguided notion that they are following in a long tradition of armed resistance, they should take a lead from the uncle of William Wallace in Braveheart when he tells the young William that before he uses the sword he learns to use his head ...

    ReplyDelete
  3. It really is time for physical force republicans to acknowledge the way of the gun has had its day. The continuation of the current campaign only serves to hand SF a free run in nationalist communities. SFs position needs to be challenged via the ballot box. Militant republicans have an opportunity to wrong foot the brits and SFs cosy in, by putting an end to a conflict that is at this point selfharming. If republicans call a halt to thier campaigns the brits and SF will have no place to hide when it comes to issues like social justice. Every day the conflict continues is another day wasted in furthering the kinds of changes nationalists and republicans want to see. Those who are responsible for keeping the war going are going to have to take responsibility for marching republicanism to the brittish gallows.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Tain Bo

    "I don’t see what a meeting would accomplish apart from giving the militants the heads up and allowing them time to counter with something more substantial than we don’t like a newspaper."

    They have had the time and came up with nothing but bitchin' about the News Letter. So their priorities are well defined should anyone wonder what they are about.

    Ardoyne Republican dropped of the discussion during the course of his OWN blog so it is clear that he is bankrupt and incapable of making a case for continued violence.

    "If the articles had been penned by individuals from a lesser involved background would this conversation even be taking place?"

    That they cannot respond to authoritive and reasoned comment from Republicans of 'calibre' suggests they are no more than guns for hire. There is a common consensus who has been hiring their services and dissidents position is that the least said on the matter the better rather than expose their flaws and excuses.

    ReplyDelete
  5. proxy bombs, jesus h christ, imagine in the year 2014 people are trying to stop 'republicans' from using this diabolical tactic. if anyone i knew was involved in one of these 'operations' i would kick them up and down the road. if anyone i knew was a victim of this tactic i'd want the perpetrators heads. armed struggle me hole, its pure evil. "we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity or rapine" thomas clarke, sean mac diarmada, thomas macdonagh, p h pearse, eamonn ceannt, james connolly, joseph plunkett. i wonder what connolly, who was strapped into his chair for execution would make of strappin people into chairs for execution. are you proxy bombin extortionists in a direct line from connolly. no ur not. ur more like in a direct line from cromwell.

    ReplyDelete
  6. grouch..Think your getting mixed up.Strapping people to chairs came from the provies.And one of the people you mention said ireland unfree shall never be at peace.what way do you want it .

    ReplyDelete
  7. billy brooks

    Grouches post does not make the contradiction you think it does.

    More to the point we could interpret your contribution to mean 'ireland unfree may include strapping people to bombs'? But realistically you do not mean that but why split hairs and not comment upon the more pressing issue of dissidents continued use of violence?

    ReplyDelete
  8. Mickey,

    You definitely are not inflicting a wound and you should know my craic as you are part of the furniture here. I think we are all thick skinned enough to take a bashing and survive it.

    I don’t think I made an argument of persuasion but just a critical observation in an effort to highlight what I view as flawed logic.

    It is certainly by no means an argument to stop the militants but just expressing what more people are coming to terms with that being the war is over.

    As I said it is up to the individual reader to make a decision of what the articles mean and in my opinion those experienced individuals sent a positive message to promote republican unity and since there has been no substantial or even reasonable objections I would assume their message is getting across.

    The Dominic McGlinchey article would appeal to the younger generations and if more republicans speak out something constructive and positive will eventually come of it.

    On a lighter note when that day comes we will be taken on SF and nicking votes from you lot.

    I hope you enjoyed your holiday and now you are back you can rattle cages.

    All the best

    ReplyDelete
  9. Marty,

    The news paper defense is odd and weightless I know many republicans that are fanatic supporters of English football and watch British TV so the culture is intermingled with our own Irish culture.

    I couldn’t agree more mate the nonsense is filling the jails and keeping screws in cushy jobs the cops rely on the militants as naturally they need more cops to combat the very marginal threat coming from them.

    We give them reason to test legal boundaries how can we challenge these drastic legislations’ from being passed and accepted when the Brits just over exaggerate the threat and say they are necessary to fight the militants.

    Spot on the Brits have bought republicanism and in a sense they don’t want the militants to close up shop as that would change the game and remove their testing grounds.
    More the pity we tend to fall into the same old traps it would make sense if we used our minds.
    The sad part is the prisoner issue wasting republican minds and feeding the machine.
    Republicanism has lost so much and for what so they get to play puppet politicians and if there is no inroads to rebuilding republicanism to fit the times then we are just trapped in the dead end of armed struggle.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Anti-venom,

    would you inquire of someone in eirigi if we could run the piece that you provided a link to?

    It would get a wider readership that way.

    If it can't be done we will just run it as a link.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Feel te love,

    You strike the nail on the head we have neither counter nor voice to speak out against the steadily growing social injustice and until anti-treaty republicans get the message we can start by addressing serious issues.

    Serious issues are sidelined with comical ridiculous argument of flags and parades.
    Hard-line republicans along with hard-line loyalist need to wake up and start addressing issues like unemployment a pathetic NHS and education.

    I doubt their interests are based in any loyalty to either the UK or Ireland but more to do with protecting their rackets.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Tiarna,

    They have had plenty of time a serious question republicans should ask 16 years on do we feel any closer to a united Ireland and do we believe that this round of militancy is accomplishing any serious objective.

    It would appear that we are being duped and as I have said before the Brits are dictating the pace the financiers know what they are doing and getting their penny worth of it.

    Although the militants will insist it is their right to fight they will not admit that the Brits had them infiltrated from the word go and SF being no dummies would also have placed their own agents of influence.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Now that this argument is out there, the people who are serious about debate should choose their language more carefully, as eventually you'll have to go into a room and debate the issue. I personally think it is better to encourage PFR into that room, rather than trying to embarrass them into it, also the latter will prolong the process of getting these people into a room.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Groucho,

    I like your style simple and to the point in common language and Oliver’s army are here to stay even if this campaign gained traction it would just be a repeat of the old failed conflict.
    Speaking out against armed action is not anti-republican the militants scare away support as people are beyond tired of the gun which is now running into 45 years.

    Militants do need to be critical of themselves and consider entering into talks with the Brits they have proved they didn’t surrender but now they need to move away from this current roadblock towards promoting anti-treaty republican unity.

    The test would be to see if they can adapt and become a viable political force rebuilding republicanism and fighting where we can make change.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Billy Brooks,

    I don’t think Groucho is being contradictive for the short time he has been here it is obvious he is for the working class and wants to see passive resistance along with a common bond that can unify the present mess of republican divisions.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Seanclinton,

    It is not about embarrassment it is more so freedom to express a view and embarrassment seems to be the least of their worry.
    They don’t have to read anything they have the right to ignore it.

    As a republican I would like to see the back of our British overlords if dialogue is confined to backrooms then it runs the risk of being silenced.
    If the militants are confident then they should be able to dust this of and counter with what they view of where the present armed factions can actually take the people.

    I don’t think anyone speaking out against it is embarrassing republicanism to date the articles have been well composed and only ask if there is an alternative no one is demanding one.
    If republicans cannot be brutally honest when discussing republicanism then what would be the point of hiding it.

    Times have changed and the ordinary person if interested can comment regardless of their view it is a long overdue debate not an anti-republican conspiracy.
    When the PIRA/INLA campaign was pacified that was embarrassing but along with that surrender went the only realistic viable threat to the British establishment.

    Almost 16 years on there is a need to question armed action is it productive or counterproductive to republicanism?

    It is just honest dialogue and it is not easy to speak out against armed struggle but for some it is even more difficult to accept that Irish people are in English jails and we are further away from a united Ireland.

    Realistically it is not about language or getting them into a room they understand that this is not a popular campaign and understand they will not beat the Brits out of the country.

    It is their war and they don’t need anyone to tell them what to do that doesn’t mean people should not express an opinion if they hold one.

    ReplyDelete
  17. tain bo, i think you misunderstood my last post, i think the ordinary man, or republican, is quite entitled to criticise or form an opinion on republicanism, indoors or outdoors. my caution was towards people who will get pfr into a room, while you and me talk on a blog, pointing out what pfr already know.

    ReplyDelete
  18. the militants are off the head, they are desperate, holdin us back, sick of them now

    ReplyDelete
  19. Seanclinton a cara fine words and semantics I doubt will deflect quisling $inn £einds headlong rush to Finchley,those carpetbaggers and cronies who remain within that party now are way beyond the point of reasoned presuasion,even mentioning them now gives them a credibility they dont deserve,in the words of the biggest carpetbagger of them all their president for life Gerry Itwasntme "move on " and confine that shower of shit to the dustbins of failed history .any alternative way forward certainly should not involve them ..that is a cara if thats who PFR you refer to is,

    ReplyDelete
  20. Sean

    I am strongly of the opinnion that everbody is aware the current campaign is going nowhere, other than were whitehall want it to go. Not just them, the provisional movement have infiltrated militant republican groups and will influence them in whatever direction they want, when it is possible for them to do so and it serves thier agenda.

    Republicans may not like some of the debate that is currently going on outside of thier control. Had the provisional movement had a debate within and outside of its ranks, we may not even be in this situation. They did not, it was all about moving pieces around the board to accommodate the pending changes that were sent down from martin and gerry.
    Yes repulicans must be got into that room for a frank debate/analysis of where its all at.
    Pride cannot come before common sense.hatred of what SF done to the republican community is no justification for keeping this campaign going and I have no doubt this resides within the thinking of some of those involved.
    There will be many reasons why we are still in a state of conflict but none of these reasons are going to hand military victory to a beleaguered community.

    Any Irishman/woman involved in the current campaign have serious questions to ask of themselves,given that they are aware it is going nowhere. In my opinion Sean there is a lack of leadership and no vision for the future of republicanism, while violence hangs around its neck strangling, sufacating and killing of legitimate conserns from a community who need a voice.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Táin Bó

    whereas it sometimes said that righteousness is the virtue of the lazy and vision-less I would not necessarily attribute such to yourself or the other 'Desistors'.

    However I am reasonably certain that most of the 'Desistors', because of their intimate knowledge of the ways of PFR, very well know that their words in all likelihood fall on deaf or unresponsive ears.

    And if that is an accurate appraisal then I wonder who is the real intended audience, for what purpose do they speak, save that they have chosen to respond to a request for an opinion?

    ReplyDelete
  22. HenrnyJoY,

    I am unsure if righteousness comes into question as for visionless that may be suited to republicanism in general.
    I will remain more critical of SF whose influence directs much of republicanism and goes unhindered as anti-treaty-republicans hold no political strength to challenge SF and that is the major weakness of anti-treaty-republicanism not the militant factions.

    Being critical of the militants comes with a price I can’t speak for the others but there is always that nagging part of my conscience that will say keep on fighting the Brits.
    Though 16 years on it seems that the enemy is republicanism and SF has the place surrounded a change of pace is needed by focusing on the electorate rather than focusing on the British occupation.

    Chances are it will reach deaf ears which is understandable as I doubt it was the intention of any of the articles to persuade anyone.
    I have no reason to believe there was a collective on this issue and remain confident there is no hidden agenda other than they are pointing out how they personally feel on the objectivity of the present PF.

    I would feel the intended audience is anyone who holds an interest in the matter as I said I don’t view it as an anti-treaty-republican conspiracy.
    There is nothing that has been said that already hasn’t been out there.

    If the call falls on deaf ears perhaps the deaf ears would consider building on an alternative to SF as it is only there that progressive change can begin.
    With SF at the helm it is anybody’s guess in what direction we will be lead I suppose that will depend on their English masters.

    Rather than see anti-treaty-republicanism on the margin and voiceless it would make sense to be on the page and heard.
    This leaves the question do we want to be heard or are we content to be pushed further and further into the background whilst SF steam ahead collecting votes they would not get if we had an alternative solid party.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Seanclinton,

    My apology if I picked you up wrong I am still a little unclear as to your caution.
    I don’t see any reason why it should stifle debate whether on the web or beyond the web.
    What PRF chooses to do is up to them and there is always that possibility considering our history that trouble could break out tomorrow then naturally they would gain the support needed to conduct a campaign.

    That does look like the case so we are left in the dark with no solid political representation this weakness SF and the Brits along with Unionists are all happy to exploit and bat about how they feel.

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  24. Another two men to appear in court this morning on possession charges,ffs it gets more and more ridiculous by the day.the stupidity of all of this makes the eejits who follow quisling $inn £eind look almost sensible..

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  25. Marty,

    I had to do a double take on that one its alarming when we get to the point of SF looking sensible.
    By the sounds of things it is a predictable pattern obviously with the quick apprehension it might suggest they were waiting on them and had no bother scooping them up.

    I think it was a pipe bomb which to date have proven very ineffective crudely constructed and more of a danger to civilians rather than a peeler wagon.
    Another attempt at making the news with these pipe bombs it is definitely something PFR need to remove from their arsenal.

    Well that got a headline not the one they want as two more prisoners will face a long stint in jail and for what absolutely nothing.

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  26. Mickey 'British passport' McIvor talking his usual crap in an effort to smear all and any republican who steps away from the gombeen establishment he and his party are now willing lackeys of. How dare he talk about anyone's pockets being heavier when it is he and his ilk that have took the soup - not to mention holiday homes in Portugal and mansions on the Letterkenny Road. In any conversation involving republicanism this idiots rantings carry no weight virtue of the fact he openly admits to carrying a British passport - some republican alright. A mouth, can't believe he's even still commenting on here but just goes to show how big a joke Sinn Fein has become when morons like this clown are standing for election in its name

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  27. I'm pleased Tain Bo has written a very articulated piece in which he advances on his thoughts on physical force republicanism.

    I don't wish to answer every point addressed to me in his article, suffice to say that he's more than entitled to speak his mind.

    What I will address are two points made in recent days and weeks regarding the whole debate. The lack of democracy, National sovereignty, self-determination, partition and continued imperialism across Ireland are a few crucial factors that those Republicans who use armed actions feel justified by. Given the above issues, I cannot disagree with them using armed resistance.

    In terms of trying to address Republican Militants etc. I still believe the best way to do that is to ask for a meeting with them and put your case to them for an end to armed actions.

    In addressing modern Republicans, there also needs to be a distinction between those attempting to present & have studied and adopted political alternatives like RSF, 32CSM, Eirigi and RNU and Armed Groups. After all, the above organisations and Parties have spent a long time, energy and commitment to their respective programmes and even if you disagree with them politically. They do have feasible projects that do have the possibility of unifying not only Republicans, but also Socialists and Democrats across Ireland. I for one, would welcome articulate critiques of the various programmes.

    Thanks again TPQ for the opportunity to air my views.

    Ignoring their political projects

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  28. does armed resistance include proxy bombs and extortion.

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  29. Anti-venom,

    thanks for that. I did not publish your what you said as I regarded it more as a private message but if you want it published just let me know.

    The piece will be run precisely as you advised.

    Much appreciated

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  30. Ardoyne Republican,

    unlike Mickey Marley’s roundabout this is no joy but I will go round the same circle.

    That is completely understandable that you do not wish to answer certain points I will give you the benefit of doubt as either you have genuinely no interest or need to address parts of my thoughts or you have no answer for them. In the sense of fairness I will lean towards the former.

    For the sake of argument let’s say the unexpected debate never took place and I say unexpected as I was surprised to read the first article and unaware there would be follow up articles.

    That aside the issues of national sovereignty, self-determination, partition, imperial influences, selective interment, prisoners rights and welfare and more oppressive legislations are still issues that republicans will address and will continue to do so.

    You use this in an asymmetrical defense as none of the articles spoke out against any of the above. There is nothing anti-republican contained in the articles rather than welcome the very experienced discourse which only extended advice coming from concerned individuals questioning the objectivity of the present armed force position and nothing else.

    Your position was to adapt a less than substantial disagreement reducing the discourse down to a unionist plot or a pro-Brit plot or worse an SF plot.
    There is no conspiracy to my knowledge it was individuals passing on their honest assessment of the present campaign.
    I don’t recall any of them making demands on the armed factions yet this somehow didn’t sit well within certain circles.

    I would have been a little on the suspicious side if this was a group acting as a collective it wouldn’t take one to be the brightest republican to spot a red flag of an intentional organised political maneuvering but that is simple to dispel as they have nothing to gain from presenting their view.
    This in republican circles only has 3 outcomes agreement, disagreement, or indifference which is much the same result of any subject matter even given the lack of agreeable democracy the opinions should be weighed in the court of public opinion as republicans we should not mimic the lack of democracy but observe it when debating republican issue.

    You repeat the notion that somehow a meeting would be more productive and certainly that would merit attention if this was an organised group seeking dialogue however I think the actions of individuals should be accepted as such as they are only representing a personal view and respectfully should be duly noted as such.
    ...

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  31. ...

    I sincerely doubt it has caused the armed factions to consider their position and as debates go I doubt it will make a dent in support for PFR in some respects it could have the opposite effect and draw more support as the serene peace of reading something at home on the internet is a far cry from the reality outside.

    Dialogue is a necessity and just because some people voiced an honest experienced based opinion does not mean they are all of a sudden by default supporters of the Brit occupation nor is it in any manner an endorsement of partition or an agreement with the puppet Stormont regime.
    It is a reality of discourse 5 or 6 people could agree with me and 50 or 60 could easily disagree.

    You mention various groups which is part of a problem as anti-treaty-republicans seem to overlook unity amongst ourselves which is continuously exploited it is a very visible weakness the ability to challenge SF.
    It is an absolute necessity to build a solid political alternative they are responsible for changing the face of traditional republicanism they remain unchallenged so they get to dictate their brand of center right republicanism.

    Anti-treaty-republicanism should have the capacity to debate any relevant issue the articles are not against republicanism and if there is any definitive message within it would be the need for political unity and serious consideration on making a positive inroads to a strong political presence. Without rebuilding and reclaiming republican identity we shall continue to go round in the circle voiceless and visionless.

    Emphasis should be focused on what is attainable and it is not something that should be ignored republicans understand when it comes to elections they have only one choice and if anti-treaty-republicanism is for the people then it is imperative that an alternative is established.
    The Brits and unionist along with SF would not want to see a new party with the potential to upset the status quo.

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  32. Mac last week we talked about truths and narratives and who to believe.. In todays Belfast TelegraphChris KilPatrick calls the people who shot dead Tommy Crossan criminals..

    Dissident terror gangs have been described as criminals masquerading as republicans after the execution of a former paramilitary leader.

    Martin Anderson at an Easter Rising commemoration at Milltown Cemetery yesterday had this to say about the murder of Tommy Crossan "a small minority" of dissident factions trying to derail the peace process.

    She went on to say..""They are criminals masquerading as republicans no matter what names they attach to themselves,"

    When you read what Suzanne Breen says about the murder in the Sunday life (basically the same paper) paints a very different story.

    He was persona non grata with the 'new' IRA, Oglaigh na hEireann, and CIRA. They all believed he was a tout.
    Crossan was too obvious to be truly effective as a security force agent. Despite extensive paramilitary and criminal activity in the last decade and a half, he notably avoided prison.
    In 2008, he received a suspended sentence for involvement in a plot to extort £50,000 from a Dungannon businessman. His co-accused, Martin Overend, was jailed for nine years. Such unlimited luck gave Crossan red flag status.
    Once, he ordered that weapons be lifted from CIRA arms dumps across the city and stored centrally in another CIRA member's flat – where they were swiftly seized by police.
    Crossan was allegedly seen meeting his handlers at Shaws Bridge in Belfast. When this was raised with him at a regular support group meeting for republican prisoners in West Belfast, he turned white and never returned to the meetings.
    The CIRA faction threatening Crossan, which I met in July 2011, detailed why he was on their hit list. He had orchestrated tiger kidnappings and cash-in-transit van robberies but kept the money, rather than handing it over to the terror group.
    He had also committed the cardinal sin, in republican eyes, of robbing small local businesses including some owned by ex-prisoners. His erstwhile comrades also claimed he had set up his own personal robbery squads using CIRA as a cover.
    "He was recruiting young lads who thought they were joining Continuity. But they weren't greenbooked (sworn in by the IRA rule book) so they weren't members.

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  33. Here and here are another two reports on the murder of Tommy Crossan.

    First citizen Mairtin O Muilleoir of Sinn Fein said "the killers existed in the dark margins of society but could not slow the pace of change in Belfast.
    He claimed: "They are dinosaurs trapped in the past and I urge everyone to work with the police to remove them from our streets."

    (martin isn't that touting?)

    It mentions Tommy Crossan going to jail..He served time in prison for conspiracy to murder Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officers following a gun attack on a police station in West Belfast in 1998.

    (The Irish news is the Irish news. <--second link.)


    But leaves out this part about his time in prison..

    "I don't know how he ended up in jail for trying to kill policemen because he didn't seem to have a political bone in his body. His heart wasn't in any struggle. He was hated by other republican prisoners.

    "John Connolly (the Real IRA commander in Maghaberry) couldn't stand him. Nobody in jail liked or trusted him, not even the crims."

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