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"Q: What do you say to those people who are unhappy but are pulled the other way by feelings of loyalty?

A: Examine their consciences. Take a good look at what is going on. If they agree - ok. If not then speak out." - Fourthwrite interview with Brendan Hughes

Gemma Murray with the latest in her series discussions with a number of former republican prisoners where armed republicanism is explored. Here she spoke to Martin McAllister. It initially featured in the News Letter on 13 February 2014.


A former republican prisoner who was suspended and dismissed from the IRA when he was in his 20s for publicly highlighting “the sectarian turn of the campaign”, has now said dissident republicans “must adhere to the lessons of the past”.

Martin McAllister, 59, from a strong republican background in Crossmaglen said at the start of the Troubles 'none of us were aware of where it would lead us because you cannot predict that.'

I found myself in the Kesh and in 1976 I got suspended and dismissed from the IRA because I wrote outside against the wishes of the OC complaining about the sectarian turn of the IRA campaign.

I wrote this because I was basically sick the night Kingsmills happened. Kingsmills was and is and remains a war crime. You cannot have it both ways. As was Teebane, Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday.

I had a short involvement with the republican movement, when I was young and naive. But I learned and have stood back from it now for 40 years. When I joined I didn’t have the benefit of hindsight, but dissidents do.

Mr McAllister - a fervent campaigner against criminality in south Armagh - added:

Dissidents have a huge advantage over the people in 1970 and 71. We didn’t know what was going to happen then. Now it is in black and white and we know it filled the jails and the graveyards. We are at a crossroads situation again, only there are enough blockheads out there not to see it.

Dissidents need to do an analysis of the last 40 years. Some of them are clever enough to do that too, but there are elements who are only interested in criminality.

He said the 'ignorance of what happened in the past' is fuelled by 'political parties who use the past as some kind of gospel to justify where they are today.'

They trawl the graveyards and trawl history with a pick and a shovel and exhume the bodies of the people who were killed as some kind of justification for where they stand now in their minds.

Nobody has a monopoly on being right here in all of this. But you cannot take a person’s life because of their religious or political conviction. That is where we lose reality and where we lose the proper interpretation of republicanism.

Mr McAllister, who three years ago accompanied Chief Constable Matt Baggott around Crossmaglen to try to bring normal policing to the area, said: 'The PSNI should be acceptable to all concerned. They are nothing more than policemen and not the colonial police.'

He said he believed there has been 'wrong on both sides - unionist and nationalist.'

'McGuinness and Robinson obviously have no time for each other,' he said.

They seem to have fictional harmony and it is absolute nonsense. Both sides could solve each other’s problems.

I think the marching of Orangemen should be allowed as long as people are educated. You can go to Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan and the locals are out and you can have a great day. Unionists also need to point out to loyalists and others the Union is copper fastened within the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. We have no real politics in Stormont, what we have is a situation with each party disrupting any useful legislation that the other side wants to enact to the point where there is an awful despondency among ordinary people.

The late David Ervine was as big a loss to nationalism as he was to unionism. He was a very pragmatic man. He is a huge loss to the people of the six counties and I don’t think we would be where we are had he been about because he had a huge influence within unionism.

He added that 'something as benign as political correctness' 40 years ago may have painted a different landscape.

Political correctness is a very potent weapon, but it would have left us in a better position today and there may never have been a shot fired.

We have inflicted 95 per cent of this on ourselves. Not one life was worth it.

'Dissident Republicans Must Learn From What Happened’, says ex-IRA Man

"Q: What do you say to those people who are unhappy but are pulled the other way by feelings of loyalty?

A: Examine their consciences. Take a good look at what is going on. If they agree - ok. If not then speak out." - Fourthwrite interview with Brendan Hughes

Gemma Murray with the latest in her series discussions with a number of former republican prisoners where armed republicanism is explored. Here she spoke to Martin McAllister. It initially featured in the News Letter on 13 February 2014.


A former republican prisoner who was suspended and dismissed from the IRA when he was in his 20s for publicly highlighting “the sectarian turn of the campaign”, has now said dissident republicans “must adhere to the lessons of the past”.

Martin McAllister, 59, from a strong republican background in Crossmaglen said at the start of the Troubles 'none of us were aware of where it would lead us because you cannot predict that.'

I found myself in the Kesh and in 1976 I got suspended and dismissed from the IRA because I wrote outside against the wishes of the OC complaining about the sectarian turn of the IRA campaign.

I wrote this because I was basically sick the night Kingsmills happened. Kingsmills was and is and remains a war crime. You cannot have it both ways. As was Teebane, Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday.

I had a short involvement with the republican movement, when I was young and naive. But I learned and have stood back from it now for 40 years. When I joined I didn’t have the benefit of hindsight, but dissidents do.

Mr McAllister - a fervent campaigner against criminality in south Armagh - added:

Dissidents have a huge advantage over the people in 1970 and 71. We didn’t know what was going to happen then. Now it is in black and white and we know it filled the jails and the graveyards. We are at a crossroads situation again, only there are enough blockheads out there not to see it.

Dissidents need to do an analysis of the last 40 years. Some of them are clever enough to do that too, but there are elements who are only interested in criminality.

He said the 'ignorance of what happened in the past' is fuelled by 'political parties who use the past as some kind of gospel to justify where they are today.'

They trawl the graveyards and trawl history with a pick and a shovel and exhume the bodies of the people who were killed as some kind of justification for where they stand now in their minds.

Nobody has a monopoly on being right here in all of this. But you cannot take a person’s life because of their religious or political conviction. That is where we lose reality and where we lose the proper interpretation of republicanism.

Mr McAllister, who three years ago accompanied Chief Constable Matt Baggott around Crossmaglen to try to bring normal policing to the area, said: 'The PSNI should be acceptable to all concerned. They are nothing more than policemen and not the colonial police.'

He said he believed there has been 'wrong on both sides - unionist and nationalist.'

'McGuinness and Robinson obviously have no time for each other,' he said.

They seem to have fictional harmony and it is absolute nonsense. Both sides could solve each other’s problems.

I think the marching of Orangemen should be allowed as long as people are educated. You can go to Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan and the locals are out and you can have a great day. Unionists also need to point out to loyalists and others the Union is copper fastened within the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. We have no real politics in Stormont, what we have is a situation with each party disrupting any useful legislation that the other side wants to enact to the point where there is an awful despondency among ordinary people.

The late David Ervine was as big a loss to nationalism as he was to unionism. He was a very pragmatic man. He is a huge loss to the people of the six counties and I don’t think we would be where we are had he been about because he had a huge influence within unionism.

He added that 'something as benign as political correctness' 40 years ago may have painted a different landscape.

Political correctness is a very potent weapon, but it would have left us in a better position today and there may never have been a shot fired.

We have inflicted 95 per cent of this on ourselves. Not one life was worth it.
Feature from Elsewhere Physical Force Republicanism

456 comments:

  1. Anonymous11:00 AM, February 17, 2014

    i wonder is this man a relation of the late legend jim. kingsmill was a war crime. yeah, one third of the dissidents are committed republicans (the ones who will do time), another third are mi5/other agencies (the ones who wont do time) and the other third are the dregs of ireland (the ones who should do time) - the likes who will beat you to death if u interfere with their money making rackets. time for the committed ones to wise up and smell the diesel and get the hell away from the scum/mi5 or end up a sad footnote to irish republicanism. you are being used/watched/controlled. wake the fu*k up. have u guys/gals not got the internet - cant u see what has been going on for decades now. get over yourselves.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Fionnuala Perry3:58 PM, February 17, 2014

    Martin,
    Am I missing something here? Something like the fact that there was a war going on here and Catholics were being murdered wholesale. Were they not war crimes?

    Are people really so detached from what went on here? I'm starting to think I lived in a different country.
    Sectarian turn of the war? Kingsmill!
    No mention of the murder triangle or the onslaught that brought about these so called 'war crimes'.
    No why would there be. It doesn't really fit with glossing over and reframing.

    I haven't heard too many apologies coming from those engaged up to their eyeballs in sectarian bloodletting.
    I did hear quite a few fairy stories told by Ervine as a way of latter day justification, but condemnation. No!!

    ReplyDelete
  3. Anonymous4:56 PM, February 17, 2014

    fionnuala, for the love of God, dont say there is anything 'so called' about Kingsmill. darkie hughes i heard wanted to shoot the army council after kingsmill.

    ReplyDelete
  4. menace5:42 PM, February 17, 2014

    Was this Martin McAllister not SF Crossmagalen Chairman in 2006?
    More recently Fianna Fail Chairman in Crossmagalen and recently put out by the same the dissidents?

    ReplyDelete
  5. Unknown7:21 PM, February 17, 2014

    Ervine a loss.lol.he was on his way to kill taigs when he was caught.Then your dandering about crossmaglen with the peelers.jABEUS Wept.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Christy Walsh7:58 PM, February 17, 2014

    Nuala

    Yes I think you are missing something. MMcAllister wrote a very balanced piece without going into recrimination (which you seem to be looking for him to have done). He is trying to talk the use of violence down not stir it up and he does it pragmatically and matter of factually. And what he says is quite sobering: republicans should not play the perpetual victim to justify doing no wrong themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Fionnuala Perry8:34 PM, February 17, 2014

    Grouch,
    I'm sure your right but that does not change my view!


    There's an opening of the floodgates and in the name of balanced pragmatism all the revisionist deluge of the day is seeping through.

    Mr mc Allister seen the light thirty eight years ago and now he's hoping to shed it over the unapologetic, which is ok as there now seems to be a convert on every street corner.
    No maybe that's a funder?

    Anyway he needs to be careful where he shines that beacon of light incase he hits on a dark corner marked truth.


    ReplyDelete
  8. Anonymous9:07 PM, February 17, 2014

    and they were all shot in the back as they had their hands up against the van. men on their way home from work. for fu*k sake. billy, anyone dandering about crossmaglen with the peelers has balls of steel in my eyes, i hate the diesel thugs as much as the peelers. fair play to urman mcallistar, pity there isnt more like him. then again this country is full of spineless turds who cower at 'republican' gangsters. on second thoughts, maybe they are right, look what happened to Paul Quinn, r.i.p.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anonymous10:19 PM, February 17, 2014

    Fionnula asked was she missing something and I believe there`s a constant issue never really addressed. Maybe its down to , normal being abuse so let it go . I put this question to David Irvine in the Corrymella centre over ten years ago. He wouldnt answer because he couldn't. The Question is How can it be acceptable for Loyalist bands and Orange hoofs tramping everywhere. They are Sectarian and given Public access to wallow in their poison. The KKK are nothing in that league of band parades . They are banned in US. If Nationalist/Republicans had similar to taunt loyalists etc the answer is obvious . Loyalists are allowed because its their false excuse of culture. It not acceptable they marching allover celebrating sectarian hatred . Kingsmill as wrong but small compared . Yet Republicans will make sure certain deeds but nt loyalists are told are told as etc Another is let them march away them march away, they always march.It was similar in Castlederg . They had over 40 and when SinnFein had one they went crazy. A good few non sinn fein voters went to see the outcome . Not a word and they will tramp a\ll summer.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Anonymous10:55 AM, February 18, 2014

    Joe i see what ur saying and fair ball for puttin it up to irvine but i would still argue there is nothing 'small' about kingsmill. that leaves people open to saying bloody sunday / dublin & monaghan was small compared to what happens in other parts of the world. when the brits have no involvement in this country, the orangies will still be marching, but not in nationalist areas. easy for me in the south but that is the size of it. do people not let their dogs/cows/donkeys shit all over the 'queens highway' in the early morning every 12th. they celebrate genocide. they are nuts. but thats the way some humans roll. fionnuala, if i was to say kingsmill was not a war crime, then all the war crimes they inflicted on us would have to be redefined also. seriously - ten working men, and the only catholic in the van allowed escape. they never had a chance - hence a war crime and a sectarian war crime too. mcallistar i just found out on net was near beaten to death by those wonderful people who i am beginning to hate more than the sas. the scum of ireland, they are on a par with the dregs of loyalism. and to think they will be donning easter lillies soon. one on one they are TOTAL pussies too, i know that for a fact and would love to have a go at them. and im a pacifist(ish). and i know this is not that serious compared to what we are talking about but they are ruining engines up and down the country. a taxi driver colleague ( we are on half the minimum wage on average) had to replace his engine because of the shite they are pumping out. what a bunch of low lifes. I would intern the bastards and not lose a winks sleep.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Fionnuala Perry12:18 PM, February 18, 2014

    Grouch,
    If it was as you call it a war crime? It didn't happen in a vacuum, nor did it happen as an act of wanton sectarian murder. It was a reaction to the most horrendous acts of carnage bordering on genocide.
    People wanted a reaction to the onslaught of Catholic murders, off course they will say something very different because these days it doesn't quite blend with the tapestry.

    Joe
    Orange marches! We had our windows boarded up fr the early sixties and sandbags on our floor.
    We lived in bloody terror through the marching season.
    There is no way M McAllister experienced what we did and maybe in the interest of balance and pragmatism he should say that.

    ReplyDelete
  12. AM12:37 PM, February 18, 2014

    Nuala,

    that would explain why it might have happened but it would not diminish its status as a war crime for those who feel it is one.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Fionnuala Perry12:46 PM, February 18, 2014

    Mackers,
    People have their own interpretation and they are entitled to it.
    No one, no one with one segment of decency and compassion could not feel for those people and their families.
    Having said that and in the interest of honesty.
    I don't remember considering it a crime in 1976 and to call it different today would make me nothing more than a hypocrite.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous12:57 PM, February 18, 2014

    ten men dead

    ReplyDelete
  15. AM1:02 PM, February 18, 2014

    Nuala,

    my attitude at the time was 'only ten?'

    I didn't think it was a war crime then but I came over time to see it as such. Much as my view of disappearing people changed also. I think that just means we change our mind after thinking and reflection, not that we are hypocritical.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Fionnuala Perry1:35 PM, February 18, 2014

    Mackers
    I am not implying it makes anyone else a hypocrite of course people can change their minds.

    I just remember too vividly what it was like and it was nowhere like the rosy picture of Donegal that Martin was painting.

    Grouch,
    As you said yourself! You live in the South we on the other hand live in the bitter blackhole of the North.

    ReplyDelete
  17. AM2:05 PM, February 18, 2014

    Nuala,

    it was not a nice era and it is easier to discuss now that we are so far removed from it.

    I sometimes think about how we assign the status of war crime to a particular type of action carried out during a war. Years ago I would have thought it was determined by who did it and not by who it was did to. Since then I have came to the view that unless we are to discriminate and create hierarchies of victims it is determined by who the act is against. And in the North it seems to me that the civilian population of Kingsmill had the same rights not to be gunned down in that manner as had the civilian populations of Derry and Ballymurphy. If it is a war crime in Derry or Ballymurphy then it is a war crime in Kingsmill.

    I no longer believe that the legitimacy of a cause automatically flows to actions conducted as part of an attempt to promote that cause. People have rights against us.

    But this merely underlines the difficulty of applying a peace time moral calculus to war time actions.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Anonymous3:50 PM, February 18, 2014

    fionnuala, i was nearly battered to death 2 years ago outside my house by a gang of drunk and drugged up 'settled' travellers(i had a moment were i thought i was gone) as i went to pick up a fare. then a year after that a thug set a wolf on me(even scarier). the peelers hav not prosecuted either case, nothing has been done and its because...well u go figure. republicans in the south are pariahs too and whats more we are an even bigger minority than u , the town i live in is a shoneen sleeveen gombeen bucket of piss. fionnuala, what do you call it if not a war crime. i think it would help heal those families wounds if republicans said it like it is/was. but then people will say why dont they... and on and on and on.

    ReplyDelete
  19. frankie3:52 PM, February 18, 2014

    Grouch,

    and i know this is not that serious compared to what we are talking about but they are ruining engines up and down the country. a taxi driver colleague ( we are on half the minimum wage on average) had to replace his engine because of the shite they are pumping out.

    People know the risks they are taking. They also know before putting the petrol in it's dodgy. So they have to take some blame.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Fionnuala Perry4:55 PM, February 18, 2014

    Grouch,
    I wasnt implying we had it so hard and you people had it so easy.
    I just think when you live with that type of fear on the scale it was unfolding it goes someway to providing a very different slant.
    Republicans were under intense pressure from their own communities to act.
    In reality I cannot sit in a safe space now and call them something I don't believe they are.
    As Mackers said how do we apply a peace time moral calculus to a war time situation?

    Does this mean I don't get my Lennon uniform ?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous5:36 PM, February 18, 2014

    frankie, on my solemn oath, the lads are buying their diesel from so called legit stations who are buying their shite from the south armagh goons.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anonymous5:42 PM, February 18, 2014

    no fionnuala, once youve become a non-member there is no leaving the non-movement. it just means i am going to wreck ur head even more. its because we are motivated by love and madness. we will always be looking out for you.

    ReplyDelete
  23. frankie7:03 PM, February 18, 2014

    Grouch,

    I hold my hands up. I have no reason to doubt you. All I can suggest is buying your oil/petrol etc somewhere else.

    As for Kingsmill and as bad as it was. Had the Reavey and O'Dowd killings not taken place (which were equally war crimes), it's more than possible Kingmill wouldn't have happened.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous8:02 PM, February 18, 2014

    sound out frankie, the problem is this, the gombeens took over, i dont trust anyone anymore, and i dont like most irish anymore, a few headers like us and a handful of others is all i hav time for now. i consider meself a gael and hav fu*k all in common with the irish. im going to call a spade a spade for whatever time i hav left on this planet and if that means callin the irish what they are now i will do that. they turned their backs on our bros and sis in north and now they are all whingin coz they are broke and in negative equity, well they can go fu*k themselves as far as im concerned. i hope the recession lasts another 40 years.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Fionnuala Perry8:43 PM, February 18, 2014

    Grouch,
    I could do with someone looking out for me and the love and madness sort of seals the deal.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Simon9:10 PM, February 18, 2014

    Kingsmill was a crime against humanity in that non-combatant civilians were killed for no other reason than their religion.

    Teebane on the other hand didn't involve an obvious sectarian motive as there were other people who worked for the security forces in construction or other supporting roles who were targeted in the same way and were Catholic.

    Neither act was an act of genocide but the Kingsmill murders were just that: murder. You cannot excuse behaviour purely because loyalists do it or because it may or may not have a certain effect on the opposing side. Acts of violence against non-combatant civilians are crimes.

    There is an argument about whether you use inhumanity or naked sectarianism to ensure victory but if you do you lose your credibility, your argument and you cease being an insurgent, a freedom fighter or a soldier- you become a terrorist.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Anonymous10:06 AM, February 19, 2014

    simon, and we will continue to lose credibility if we dont call it like it was. they were the darkest of days for sure around then, for us especially, and the right words might help their families even a small bit. im not tryin to go on and on about it, but it was one of the worst days of the war, simple as that.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous10:17 AM, February 19, 2014

    fionnuala, i can see you being at the vanguard of o'marxism, we are planning to hold a twelfth of july fancy dress parade in london soon - loads of love and madness to be sure, i'll fill you in on how to join the london lodge later.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Fionnuala Perry12:54 PM, February 19, 2014

    Simon,
    Kingsmill was brought about by those who were quite happy to engage in crimes against humanity..

    The Glenanne gang. A gang of Loyalist extremists who carried out an unrelenting campaign of murder on the Catholic community were made up of British soldiers, UDR, RUC and the mid Ulster Brigade of the UVF.
    Out of the Seventy six murders that have been linked to this group in the 'Cassel Report' seventy four were known to have had British Army, UDR, RUC and UVF involvement.

    In total there were over one hundred Catholics brutally murdered in an area that came to be named the 'murder triangle'

    All avenues of any type of redress were firmly closed.
    Those who were in a position to prevent these murders were actively engaging in carrying them out.

    Text book theories are just that. Walk a mile through the terror and how you apply such logic suddenly changes.

    Grouch,
    I think anything that can be said to comfort families should be said. However, I think what happened was the direct result of wanton murder and I believe that's where the blame sits.

    Do I still get to London?

    ReplyDelete
  30. AM3:06 PM, February 19, 2014

    Nuala,

    I think that logic can only really be made to work if we abolish the categoy of war crime altogether. But that introduces another set of problems which basically amount to civilian populations having no rights against the military.

    The type of attack carried out in Kingsmill where people are collectively attacked either as punishment or deterence is universally viewed as a war crime underpinned by the logic of Hugo Grotius, ‘no one who is innocent of wrong may be punished for the wrong done by another.'

    Kingsmill flouts the essence of republicanism because it asserts that civilians have no rights. In my view it had to be sectarian because the people targeted seemed to have been selected for no reason other than they were Protestant and were considered a useful means for transmitting a message to people who were committing war crimes against innocent Catholics right up until the night before Kingsmill.





    ReplyDelete
  31. Anonymous3:58 PM, February 19, 2014

    @ Grouch. My comment on "small" meant misleading in terms of evidence or using Kings-mill which is very controversial not being a good example.
    Similar to all involved in the Miami show-band. The Revee & O Dowd family`s in White-cross and Gilford. Then Kingsmill. Alan Black the only Protestant survivor also agree`s. Coincidentally the Govt said these Tit for tat murders would be stopped.Then Kingsmill. Then The first groups SAS came etc etc

    We may differ regarding Loyalist Orange Parades.They should be banned totally and this is an example of Nat/Rep division as such. Some say they were used to create worker`s not uniting. Thats true, but doesn't give them the right to keep this totally unacceptable hate frenzied sectarian displays. Theyd have a great bonfire burning their sashes and flutes etc. Then Israel should be excused as they were set up in Britain`s interest to secure Palestine. Theyve done similar in dividing and burning Palestinian homes . They also supplied arms to loyalists as Britain required. We all have different or similar opinions etc.Loyalists etc in my opinion are the worst plague. Sorry for the misleading comment earlier a Chara

    ReplyDelete
  32. Fionnuala Perry4:27 PM, February 19, 2014

    Mackers,
    With the greatest of respect I don't think anyone was thinking along the lines of Hugo Grotius's logic back in 1976.

    This is not an easy thing to comment on. Like everyone else I am aware that all these years later families remain trapped in the moments between the guns starting and ceasing.

    I think the crux of all this for me can be summed in a few keywords. 1976, sectarian butchery, collusion and hopelessness.

    I know what it was like to feel the rawness of that time and the horror that caused it.
    I also know in the new dispensation such memories should have no place.
    However had Martin Mc Allister just once acknowledged what it was like at that time for the benefit of truth, I may have found it easier to go with some of his logic- well with the exception of parading round Donegal or the greatness of Ervine.


    ReplyDelete
  33. Henry JoY4:32 PM, February 19, 2014

    "the difficulty of applying a peace time moral calculus to war time actions"

    In the historical context of almost 120 Catholics killed by Loyalist in 1975, the gratuitous violence of Lenny Murphy and his butchers, 25 killings in County Armagh and Louth, retaliation in such an attack as the Kingsmills Massacre was as inevitable as it was unjustifiable.


    I remember in the immediate aftermath discussing, not so much questioning, the morality of it all with a local IRA commander. He assured me that those involved had received absolution from a priest after the attack!

    ReplyDelete
  34. AM4:51 PM, February 19, 2014

    Nuala,

    I think we very much thought along the lines described by Hugh Grotius: we stressed very strongly that Catholics should not be targeted as some form of collective punishment, that CS gas and curfews etc were indiscriminate weapons that collectively punished the community.

    The problem is that we selectively applied the Grotius perspective: if our rights were violated we spoke up, when we violated rights we were much less vocal. And I as much contributed to that as the next person.

    I think the memories you outlined should have a place regardless of the dispensation. I remember only too well how it impacted on people in areas like our own.

    But none of that prohibits us from reflection and acknowledging (if that is the conclusion we come to) that we seriously violated the rights of the innocent albeit in pursuit of a cause we truly believed to be legitimate and in circumstances that were molten hot and not given to cool thinking.

    Martin in my view had no real need to highlight what else went on given that we all know about it. There would only be a problem were he to pretend that it did not go on or that Kingsmill occured in a vacuum.

    I firmly feel Kingsmill would not have happened had the previous attacks of the night before not taken place. But none of that can be a justification for the slaughter of a civilian population. It was as wrong as Bloody Sunday or Ballymurphy. If people believe it was not as wrong I am more than willing to listen to them and they are free to make their case here.

    Ultimately, some of the most trenchant criticism of the Kingsmill attack came from within the ranks of the IRA.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous5:28 PM, February 19, 2014

    sound out joe, as a southerner though i'd be worried for my northern bros and sis if they were banned - they'd go ape and i fear the consequences. the world knows what genocide celebrating utter pigs they are which must be some consolation. i know they must be torture to put up with. did u see the blog here a while back about lynch going to that scumdophile heath after bloody sunday. and he was fianna fail. imagine what the shower of spineless turds who came after him were like. im not exagerrating when i say the likes of us are about 3-5% of the population of this island. me feiners rule down here bro, shameless bastards. fionnuala,the o'marxist movement have decided to make you leader of the loyal london orange disorder, congratulations.

    ReplyDelete
  36. larry hughes5:58 PM, February 19, 2014

    Fionnuala

    agree with you here.
    Bomber Harris was either a war criminal or a war criminal depending on your viewpoint.

    The moral of the story is he was on the winning side so instead of getting hung, he got medals and a statue.

    I see the relatives of the Kingsmills incident still seeking justice. I've some words for the.... GET OVER IT FFS

    ReplyDelete
  37. Christy Walsh6:36 PM, February 19, 2014

    Nuala

    "With the greatest of respect I don't think anyone was thinking along the lines of Hugo Grotius's logic back in 1976."

    Sectarianism was always frowned upon by Nationalists/Republicans long before 1969 they did not have to have heard of Grotius. So Republicans were drawn to act as they did at Kingsmill as reactionary but that does not negate it being a war crime whether or not republicans recognized it as one or not.

    More contemporary might be the question can killing British soldiers or PSNI be classified as a war crime if using violence is futile but for its own sake? If dissident violence is futile then does it become wanton to fulfill a blood lust rather than to realize a political objective. It is not sufficient to mouth that so long as English feet are on Irish soil then Irish people retain the right to use violence, etc, that mantra can be immoral.

    ReplyDelete
  38. AM6:47 PM, February 19, 2014

    Tiarna,

    if there is no war on then I guess it is arguable that war crimes don't apply. But it also means that in a situation where there is no war then military or police have civilian rights which means they cannot be targeted: and the 'war right' to target them is also denied.



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  39. Fionnuala Perry6:49 PM, February 19, 2014

    Grouch,
    I am unworthy but deeply honoured.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous6:52 PM, February 19, 2014

    larry, fair enough so, lets all get over everything shall we.

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  41. Anonymous7:04 PM, February 19, 2014

    fionnuala did u ever in ur wildest dreams see urself at the head of an orange parade. best get practicing ur baton twirling.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Fionnuala Perry7:17 PM, February 19, 2014

    Grouch
    Just interrupted practice to reply.

    ReplyDelete
  43. larry hughes7:38 PM, February 19, 2014

    Drouch

    it seems to have worked for the Germans and Japanese. If we all 'get over it' the Orangies will have no-one to upset. REDUNDANT.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Simon8:28 PM, February 19, 2014

    Fionnuala- "I know what it was like to feel the rawness of that time and the horror that caused it."

    I have read a lot about the period and I have to admit I cannot fathom the heartache or terror that was meted out to Republicans in interrogation centres, prison or in the street. I understand confinement gives a person a very different viewpoint or perspective. I know that if I mix a long period of confinement at violent hands and the unfathomable treatment that was handed out to us on the outside I wouldn't know what way I would think. I'd like to think I'd be against actions like Kingsmills but you are right I will never know. The time and circumstances have thankfully past.

    It was undoubtedly a horrific time, Loyalists killing innocent Catholics in an indiscriminate, deeply sectarian way, to in their words put the IRA off continuing the fight. Is an act of killing innocent Protestants any better than an act of killing innocent Catholics?

    I am sure people who carried out genocide in Rwanda or Yugoslavia had their excuses but there is no legitimate reason for intentionally targeting innocent non-combatant civilians.

    If it was done in response to Loyalist killings of non-involved Catholics why would it put them off? Republicans responded to increased sectarianism by increasing sectarianism on their part. Does foresight not dictate that Loyalists would respond in kind?

    The Shankill Butchers were despicable torturers and murderers. There are no suitable words in the English language to describe their barbarism. What if we knew for certain that torturing and murdering innocent Protestants would make them stop? Would this make it right? Why are Protestant lives worth less than Catholic ones?

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  45. Christy Walsh9:37 PM, February 19, 2014

    AM

    There in lies a dilemma: I am unsure if International Law should apply, whereas, (perhaps not intended)you suggest ordinary criminal law might be more appropriate if there is no war?

    So how wrong is it to kill your enemy only for the sake of killing him even though the killing will not achieve anything related to your stated goals? And is mere reference or alluding to politics as the motive a shield from criminal punishment?

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  46. Anonymous10:23 AM, February 20, 2014

    simon, and the butchers were used/protected by mi5, they got their people at the top of rep movement to promote 'long war' hence we hav 100 million mi5 base outside belfast now. they are the dark side. scary. and theres some republicans who still target psni officers. mi5 are laughing their asses off at thick paddies.

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  47. Fionnuala Perry12:20 PM, February 20, 2014

    Simon,
    They were not killing Catholics to put the IRA of fighting.
    There was no fighting when they murdered John Savage and Peter Ward.
    Did they butcher Senator Paddy Wilson and his secretary to stop the IRA fighting?

    The IRA campaign simply allowed them to step it up a gear the bloodlust was always there.
    Ervine once claimed (lied) that the Loyalist violence was reactionary. This 'forward thinker, great loss' was another one who seemed to struggle with the truth.
    No problem lying just struggled with the truth.

    I don't care about anyone's religion or lack of it.
    What I do care about is the glossing over the facts and trying to portray the ugly face of sectarian slaughter as a two way street which it never was.

    No ones even hinted that one life was more precious than another.
    The difference was the Catholic population did not have anyone to defend them. No one!

    Kingsmill was the result of a campaign of carnage did it reduce the slaughter in that area? Yes it did.

    No one comes to things like this lightly . Ten people died under the most hideous circumstances.
    If Henry Joy is right those involved were deeply troubled as well.

    Where I differ from you is, I put the blame where I believe it should be placed at the door of those who thought savagery and the murder of innocents was their right.

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  48. AM12:42 PM, February 20, 2014

    Nuala,

    There was a lot of naked hatred within loyalism for sure. But there was also the strategic use of violence and probably moulded by the Brits. The strategic intellect behind the violence may not always have figured amongst those carrying it out (but that probably works the same for republicans as well to some extent) but it was there. And they thought (much like the Brits did during WW2) that if they applied enough brute force to the Catholic population, it would in turn squeeze the IRA.

    I think that logic was directing the campaign in the late 80s and the 90s. Johnny and the people implementing it hated 'taigs' but to think that the weapons were brought in with Brit aid, coupled with collusion, had no strategic property or purpose misses the point I think and in some ways makes it easier for the Brits to absolve themsleves.

    I put the blame where I believe it should be placed at the door of those who thought savagery and the murder of
    innocents was their right.

    Yet, this is exactly what is thrown our way in respect of Kingsmill.

    Why did the IRA not take retaliatory action for Kingsmill which saw the slaughter of ten innocent Irish people?

    Sectarianism. It is the only answer I can think of. Some people had less right to life than others and it was decided on the basis of their religion. Killing innocent people to demonstrate that killing innocent people is wrong throws up more questions than it answers.

    It is a difficult area in our collective past.

    The real significance of Henry Joy's point I thought was situational logic. Situations create a certain logic. And I think that should always be factored in when we reflect on these things. But if it is unjustified as he said it was what do we conclude when we reflect?

    And you are not being beaten over the head with right answers here, just different views of a difficult time.

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  49. larry hughes1:51 PM, February 20, 2014

    AM

    'Why did the IRA not take retaliatory action for Kingsmill which saw the slaughter of ten innocent Irish people'?

    Irish people? Did 'they' profess that?

    Can't remember any Prods saying they are Irish. That's the delusion that defeats the nationalist struggle every time.

    Pathetic!! kissing the arse of your abuser.

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  50. Fionnuala Perry3:53 PM, February 20, 2014

    Mackers,
    Can you ever remember a time anytime when the Protestant people called on Loyalist death squads to stop?
    I vaguely remember one time complaints coming from around Forthriver about the gruesome sights appearing during the reign of the butchers but outside of that nothing.
    I found that silence as disturbing as the killings.
    It was as if we were nothing reduced in their heads to nothing, therefore they could do with us what they
    wanted.
    Johnny Adair, Billy Wright, Lenny and his odious group. People that any decent society would shun were portrayed as heroes.
    Basher Bates an obscenity in any society was given a heroes send off!!

    Sadly it wasn't that vile crowd that stood at the side of the van because it was them who paved the way for such terrible happenings.

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  51. Henry JoY4:59 PM, February 20, 2014

    Anthony poses a question; "But if it is unjustified as he (HJ) said it was what do we conclude when we reflect?"

    Your question only includes half of what I said. I said it was as inevitable as it was unjustifiable, the only truthful conclusion I can come to.
    That is it was A but not A alone, also it was B but not B alone. That it was both A and B at one and the same time. That is probably less than a satisfactory answer for those who only allow for didactic conclusions, black and white, right and wrong, perceptions and abstractions.
    The event can only usefully be considered when positioned within a narrative and system...(which is nesting others' narratives and systems... and is nested within yet other narratives and systems).

    Ignoring complexity and applying moral calculus to single events is reductionist and serves little purpose save keeping the drama going between the persecutor, persecuted and rescuer roles we all at times adopt.

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  52. Anonymous5:37 PM, February 20, 2014

    larry, they were innocent non-combatants coming home from factory jobs, does it matter if they were irish brits prods or romanian hare krishnas.

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  53. AM6:16 PM, February 20, 2014

    Larry,

    many Protestants describe themselves as Irish (and British). But regardless of what they call themsleves, in that era we called them misguided Irish people. So the people we were lining up at he side of a road to be killed were in our view Irish.

    Nuala,

    the loyalist groups had little support compared to republican ones. Which tells us something about the attitude of Protestants towards those groups. I think a stronger criticism of the unionist community is to be made for their attitude to the British security forces which we still see today as they seek to impose their narrative of the past on the conflict.

    But that has to remain secondary to the issue of lining people up at the side of a road to be killed. Do you think that Bloody Sunday or Bllymurphy were war crimes but Whitecross not? And if you think there is a difference how do we explain it?

    Henry Joy,

    'situational logic' addressed the inevitability aspect of what you said. Or at least it was intended to.

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  54. Christy Walsh6:26 PM, February 20, 2014

    Nuala

    You make good and pertinent points about unionist/loyalist values. You previously pointed out that responding to like with like stopped or reduced further carnage in the area. (I am not attacking you here just asking) is that a justification that resort to war crimes can be an effective remedy or response? But an answer either way to that question still means that Kingsmill was a war crime.

    Then the questions are are war crimes acceptable dependent upon who carry them out and for what reason? The answer to those questions on your logic are likely to be yes so long as your side carried them out in mirror image of what were unionist/loyalist values.

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  55. AM6:48 PM, February 20, 2014

    Tiarna,

    I don't know if anyone regards what goes on in the North as a war. Speaking to some of the physical force people they didn't say it was a war: some even refrain from describing it as a campaign.

    One problem with the criminal law is that it has itself become so politicised over the years.

    I don't thimk we can label people enemies so that we can justify killing them. No war, no legitimate targets. We can all designate someone an enemy - religious or political and then decide to kill them. But society has rights against us so do we want to tell them they have no rights and we will decide that we can walk the streets armed and target who we alone decide? It poses too many insurmountable challenges for me.

    Labelling something as 'political' is not to say it is legitimate. We regarded the loyalists as political prisoners but never for a moment felt there was any legitimacy to what they did.

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  56. Tain Bo7:00 PM, February 20, 2014

    Larry,

    have you been nipping at Mickey Henry’s poteen?

    What does murdering ten men have to do with nationalism?

    Is it relevant that Protestants say they are Irish or British or more so Northern Irish?
    I have no idea what those poor bastards would have professed minutes before they were wiped out. I am sure none of their thoughts would have been on much else but pure terror and their families.

    Even the lone survivor who was struck 18 times and by some quirk of fate managed to live perhaps if you asked him what he was thinking he might tell you.

    You are delusional if you think sectarianism is something to make a pathetic point on.

    You are an obnoxious wee eegit with your pathetic advice for people to get over it and not seek justice. That is ridiculous enough but you do it with that sectarian sentiment
    Should we follow your pathetic lead and not seek justice for innocent Catholics murdered? Or, should they take your all knowing advice and get over it.

    Explain if we don’t deal with the past how exactly do we come to terms with it.

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  57. Christy Walsh7:03 PM, February 20, 2014

    AM

    Yes it does get mind boggling. If the physical force people still haven't defined the basics of what they are about how can anyone take them seriously? That is a whole new meaning to rebels without a clue.

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  58. Robert7:26 PM, February 20, 2014

    Fionnuala,

    'Can you ever remember a time anytime when the Protestant people called on Loyalist death squads to stop?'

    Could you define who the 'Protestant people' are and I will attempt to address this.

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  59. larry hughes7:52 PM, February 20, 2014

    AM

    Are the Irish in Kilburn English?
    wer the ethnic Germans living in UK/USA during the war and japs American and English? No they were a threat to national security.

    Tain Bo

    aye get over it everyone ffs wer all near in a coma listening to the same bellyaching shite. Japs don't teach ther kids history pre 1945. It must be a joy for kids there.

    had a brief conversation with an ex loyalist who served time for killing a taig. I asked what would happen if the IRA began targeting loyalists relatives. He near choked, said republicans should never descend to that level.

    As for retaliation to loyalist indiscriminate sectarian murders (security force assisted) GET IT RIGHT FUCKIN UP THEM.

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  60. Fionnuala Perry8:01 PM, February 20, 2014

    Robert,
    The people who lived in the areas that housed these killers and the wider Protestant public.
    Anyone from the Protestant community who asked the sectarian killers to stop?

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  61. AM8:12 PM, February 20, 2014

    Larry,

    are we to take it from this that Kingsmill was justifed and that those killed deserved it 'right fuckin up them'?

    It would be interesting to hear your perspective.

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  62. larry hughes8:16 PM, February 20, 2014

    AM

    answering a question with another? and there was me thinking you weren't a politician.

    As for the war in the early 1970s the RA was way too soft. Israel and Norn Ireland were not created by gimps.

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  63. larry hughes8:25 PM, February 20, 2014

    Someone mentioned Brendan Hughes wanted to shoot the Army Council after Kingsmill. Oh, so Bloody Friday was ok then lol.

    That just smacks of typical provo bullshite and severely diminishes his memory for me if true. Another Belfast chancer perchance?

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  64. Tain Bo8:34 PM, February 20, 2014

    Larry,

    It wasn’t that long ago you asked me if Billy Wright’s father had the right to seek an inquiry or seek a form of justice which didn’t make sense as he already did.
    Now a short time later you are telling people to get over it.
    You seemed greatly concerned that the sectarian serial killer rat got an inquiry.
    I even copied and pasted the news article for you to read showing you how daft you sounded asking if he had the right to something that he already sought.

    But then again that was your transparent way of making an arse of yourself as per usual.
    Where is the evidence that the 10 men were active in killing Catholics?

    What have the Japanese got to do with it?

    Why if you are in a coma do you insist on commenting that makes you a hypocrite complaining about the complainers?

    Am I supposed to be impressed that one idiot spoke with another idiot and concluded a hypothetical nothing?

    If you are so bored or above it all why don’t you go play some English football or should say watch in on the box.
    You are as daft as Mickey Henry but at least every now and then he is funny.

    You are as sectarian as those loyalists you moan about try taking some of your own pathetic advice and get over it.
    Billy Wright would be proud of you as you are way down there with his mentality and I am sure he was touched that you were so concerned for his father’s legal rights.

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  65. AM8:44 PM, February 20, 2014

    Larry,

    I thought your question was rhetorical and not one seeking an answer.

    I am sure that there are Irish people in Kilburn who are British or English.

    I felt the the behaviour of the US admin towards the Japanese in the States during WW2 was terrible, Interning children and such like is hardly to be recommended.

    I don't know if Brendan wanted to shoot the AC after Kingsmill. I don't recall him ever expressing that view to me. If he did I have completely forgotten it.

    And as there were people on the AC who would have opposed it I don't see why he would have felt that way, unless there was a rush of blood to the head. Possible but I don't know of it. We should bear in mind that some of the people on the AC at the time were not in the least sectarian.

    Most republicans know that Bloody Friday was a disaster, the result of many things but not intent to slaughter a civilian population. That would make it different from Kingsmill although of no use whatsoever to the victims.

    So, to the point again: did those at Kingsmill, in your view, deserve what they got and that it was a case of right fuckin up them?

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  66. Sean Bresnahan8:52 PM, February 20, 2014

    I think Larry has made his point so why the need to hound him into a corner? Kingsmill was plainly a strategically planned operation in the context Nuala and Larry have identified, is that not the point that was being made? Personally I think Larry's contribution is much more insightful and nuanced than people have credited it with and is firmly based in the real-politik of the time. He's simply telling it as it was

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  67. Tain Bo9:10 PM, February 20, 2014

    Sean,

    unless he was actually there he can only guess or express how he feels it was.
    No one is hounding him he made a sectarian stance on the issue basically saying they got what they deserved.

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  68. AM9:11 PM, February 20, 2014

    Sean,

    I don't thimk Larry is being hounded into a corner. He might have painted himself into one. He might even change his mind. As you are aware I never consider what is said in the comments sections here as the sworn statement. It is a draft of what people are struggling to think rather than what they definitively think. People practice ideas here so we don't hold them to what they say.

    And as he has persuaded you of some merit in his argument he is hardly boxed in.

    Realpolitik of the time is what? Realpolitk is the justification Kissinger used for mass murder. We can all resort to it. I agreed with it by the way when it happened on the basis of realpolitik. So I can hardly wave the flag of morality at anybody on this matter. But that hardly makes it right. I happen to think today that it was a war crime just as I think Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy was. Should I not?

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  69. Tain Bo9:12 PM, February 20, 2014

    Sean,

    I forgot, if Mickey Henry made the same comment there would be a witch hunt

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  70. Sean Bresnahan9:25 PM, February 20, 2014

    Let's not start comparing the Provisional IRA to Henry Kissinger. It was a ruthless action, if that there's no doubt, but it was a reaction to the sectarian strategy the British were waging through their proxies. None of the conversation touched enough for me on the reality that this reached to the highest levels of the British state. I say look no further than that if you want someone to blame. It was a war, a horrible war - and horrible things happened. But none of it was of our doing, it was forced on us

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  71. Sean Bresnahan9:28 PM, February 20, 2014

    The basic logic to Larry's thinking the way I read it is the IRA fought to a code when the enemy had none - and still were the one's portrayed as 'terrorist'. If they'd genuinely committed to a campaign of wanton, sectarian terrorism things would have been much different. Larry's thinking seems to be the IRA played by the rules when it should have said to hell with the rules and brought the whole fantasy that is 'good old Northern Ireland' crashing down. On this occasion, whether it was a war-crime or not, they said hold on a minute, we're not gonna just take this shit lying down on a permanent basis. That's the reality of it whether people choose to acknowledge it or not. It was a response to the criminal campaign being waged by the British state against the nationalist community and there are many who consider it as something that was necessary at the time, a position not without merit. That's the sad reality that is this sectarian fucking shithole. The bottom line is the Brits are responsible for all of it and should get out of this country

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  72. AM9:40 PM, February 20, 2014

    Sean,

    there is no comparison with Kissinger. But realpolitik can be used to justify anything. He and the realist shchool of international politcs developed it into a fine art.

    But the comparison can be drawn with Bloody Sunday. Two unarmed civilian populations slaughtered. I accept what laid up to the Kingsmill massacre but none of it in my view negates what the action was: a war crime. Are war crimes necessary? I hope not. Armies often try to invoke military necessity for committing them but I doubt if that negates their characterisation as war crimes. I don't see how we can call the massacre of a civilian population as anything other than a war crime. If I am wrong I am sure on this site I will be disabused of my misconceptions.

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  73. Robert9:45 PM, February 20, 2014

    Fionnuala,

    'Can you ever remember a time anytime when the Protestant people called on Loyalist death squads to stop?'

    Can either community lay claim to a time, anytime, when as a collective entity they asked those killing on their behalf to cease their activities? I can recollect hundreds of instances where Protestants from every sphere of that community, over many decades, called on Loyalist paramilitaries to stop.

    As a starting point you might consider how many times this was clearly illustrated, following Republican killings, where bereaved families either personally or through ministers publicly called for no retaliation?



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  74. Sean Bresnahan9:47 PM, February 20, 2014

    The bottom line is we all know sectarianism is poisonous and do not in any way, shape or form advocate for it - neither does Larry as far as I'm concerned, the man I know is far from sectarian or a bigot. He's just telling it as it and putting the uncomfortable truth on the table. And needless to say he likes to challenge us using his not-so-subtle, subtle techniques. This idea of 'I hope war-crimes are not necessary' I find staggering Anthony, maybe not in some fanciful theoretical world we'd all love to occupy but when you're being attacked you fight back - it's a basic human response. I reiterate we wanted none of this and the British are singularly to blame. Republicanism is not sectarian or criminal and neither was the Provisional IRA. Were it not for the British there would never have been an IRA and God only knows how great this country might now be

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  75. larry hughes10:03 PM, February 20, 2014

    Sean Bres

    you are bang on! As we now know PIRA were fighting a 30 yr campaign for equality within the UK. Or British rights for British citizens. Not too many cries from the hun community for their fellow British citizens to be spared. Indeed the Reverent Ian recently said Dail Ereann brought the Dublin Monaghan bombings upon itself.

    Mackers

    The ten at kingsmill were every bit as 'much' or as 'little' to blame as Brit/UVF RC victims. Moral of story, no more sectarian attacks in S Armagh. Prods had graffiti ATAT all taigs are targets. In the context of the time...yep rite fukn up em!! Goosey goosey gander!!

    Tain Bo

    Billy Wrights da shud get over it, too much money spent on enquiries which don't end but only perpetuate the pain. By the way, make sure yer mammy sterilises yer dummy it seems to have landed in shite when ye spate it outa yer buggy.

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  76. Robert10:03 PM, February 20, 2014

    Anthony,

    'So, to the point again: did those at Kingsmill, in your view, deserve what they got and that it was a case of right fuckin up them?'

    Education does after all not always equate to enlightenment.One wonders as to the 'Alma Mater' of a Postgraduate who authors something like this?

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  77. frankie10:05 PM, February 20, 2014

    Richard English in his book Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA .. Say's this about this about the sectarian killings in South Armagh at the time..

    Page 173..
    But the intensity of the gruesome sequence epitomized by the Tullyvallen, Kingsmils and the Reavey/O'Dowd killings merits closer inspection. It is possibly pointless trying to identify who started the cycle, since rival combatants would be able to identify ever earlier grievances on their own side, ultimately taking the sequence so far back into history that it would be hard to attribute to them any part of the cause of the specified events. On the 17 January 1976 Republican News carried a statement from the Provisionals declaring that 'The Irish Republican Army has never initiated sectarian killings, and sectarianism of any kind is abhorrent to the republican movement and contrary to its philosophy.'

    Yet even here, there is a hint that republicans had been drawn into retaliatory action: 'If the loyalist elements responsible for over 300 sectarian assassinations in the past four years stop such killings now, then the question of retaliation from whatever source will not arise'. And the mid-seventies undoubtedly did witness IRA immersion in some grubby, sectarian killing (as, off the record republicans will themselves concede)...

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  78. Robert10:49 PM, February 20, 2014

    Larry,

    I am surprised you have returned to this subject having been so comprehensively turned inside out on the matter, by Anthony, on your previous outing. It's reading is no less uncomfortable second time around.

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  79. AM10:50 PM, February 20, 2014

    Larry,

    we will not agree.

    Robert,

    Larry is intelligent. This is probably what is dangerous. While I don't believe in real life he would harm people and probably thinks it is all a bollix, there are intelligent people who plan and execute war crimes. One of the leades of the Einsatzgruppen had a double PhD and they called him Dr Dr.

    Sean,

    I don't get annoyed at Larry's debating techniques. I am long familiar with them and like I am with you I don't fall out with him over it.

    You think war crimes are necessary then and it is staggering to think that they should be outlawed? Or are they to be outlawed only for some but not all? If I kill ten Protestants I am ok and if Beano kills ten Catholics he is a war criminal? I simply can't buy that Sean. At one time I could but not now. For the world of me I cannot stand over lining up a civilian population for purposes of reprisals and gunning them down. At 18 I would have done it but at 56 not a chance. Whatever the cause the act cannot be a just one. The Soviet cause against Nazi Germany was wholly legitimate and justified but the rape of 2 million German women was a war crime. It is not altered by what the Nazis did to the Russians.

    The IRA couldn't even stand over its own operation at Kingsmill and even today we have some Shinners pretending it was the INLA.

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  80. Tain Bo10:50 PM, February 20, 2014

    Larry,

    you have a short memory you asked if the man was entitled to an inquiry as you were trying and I quote “trying” to be the smart arse.
    As you thought you were being clever asking if he was entitled to one not that you were aware the inquiry was already over.

    Make up your mind either people are entitled to it or not. I am sure you feel a wee bit braver with Sean holding your hand you are still a sectarian moaner who blames everyone including the drunks in the streets of Derry for all your problems.

    All Sean proved that it was okay under the circumstances to mow down innocent people and not have a pair to clang together and claim it.

    Don’t insult my mother that I take very personally you can take it whatever way you feel you wee eegit that is where I draw the line.

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  81. larry hughes10:53 PM, February 20, 2014

    Never mind the early 70s it was just on the news there that not a single ex security force witness would contact police seeking to bring criminal charges for Bloody Sunday. Ach that's understandable killing taigs is the 'culture'.

    Robert

    Jim Alister I assume you're gobbing about? I was going to say you have a typical hun, 'holier-than-thou' attitude, instead i'll just say 'yer hole'.

    ReplyDelete
  82. larry hughes10:57 PM, February 20, 2014

    mackers

    are we not talking in the context of the time of the event? Who in their correct mind would want to do something like that in todays SF UK wonderland?

    ReplyDelete
  83. larry hughes11:03 PM, February 20, 2014

    Tain Bo

    ALL enquiries should be cancelled. There's so little money to spare. They might be able to avoid the bedroom tax if people would just get over it. YOU need to get over yourself!

    ReplyDelete
  84. Sean Bresnahan11:08 PM, February 20, 2014

    I'm not holding anyone's hand or endorsing anything either for that matter. It doesn't alter the context of what happened which is what I assume Larry's real point is once you cut to the chase

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  85. AM11:10 PM, February 20, 2014

    Larry,

    on the brandy and well in so allow me the latitude I allow everybody else even when they are sober!

    In my view context is alibi. It might be a false alibi or it might be true but it at least has to be cross examined.

    'Context of the time of the event' can be put forward for Dresden, Hiroshima, Kigali, - where does it end? The Brits even use it for Bloody Sunday and torture. Is it not better to accept that all people have equal rights and as much as that challenges us, we work within that context and determine not to violate them?

    I admit to despairing when people advocate slaughtering civilians. My anathema towards it is grounded in observing what regimes like that of Pinochet, Videla, Nixon, Bagosora, Kissinger, D'Aubisson, Sharon et al were involved in.

    I want to be unlike them not resembling them.

    But anyway, that's me for the night. Unless Carrie uploads further comments that's it for tonight!

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  86. Fionnuala Perry11:15 PM, February 20, 2014

    Robert,
    The peace people started after the killing of the Maguire children. Children who were mowed down by an IRA volunteer already dead. Children shot by British Army bullets but even that was successfully turned on its head.
    Sure Protestants joined that movement but realistically the pressure came from the Nationalist side.

    I disagree with Mackers that the IRA had more support amongst their community than Loyalists.
    I seen first hand the extent of Protestant support. In 69 those on the fringe areas supported the burning and shooting of their Catholic neighbours.
    Catholics mainly turned to the IRA for protection.
    Ok, the old rebel streak may have kicked in as the community bonded but that's not how it started.

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  87. Robert11:18 PM, February 20, 2014

    Larry,

    'I was going to say you have a typical hun, 'holier-than-thou' attitude, instead i'll just say 'yer hole'.

    Making fools of idiots is not funny, As you will know from experience.

    Where you insist on publicly expressing such a universally repugnant opinion my appearing 'holier than thou' automatically inserts itself into the exchange. It is a status that you infer upon me, leaving little room for complaint.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Robert11:21 PM, February 20, 2014

    Anthony,

    '..on the brandy..'

    You being a religious man, the brandy must come as a constant reminder that the flying spaghetti monster loves you and always wants you to be happy?

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous11:24 PM, February 20, 2014

    " By the way, make sure yer mammy sterilises yer dummy it seems to have landed in shite when ye spate it outa yer buggy."

    what did ur dummy land in? judgin by what comes out of ur gob a bucket of ebola virus u walkin talkin scum suckin hemaroid.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Robert11:29 PM, February 20, 2014

    Fionnuala,

    'I disagree with Mackers that the IRA had more support amongst their community than Loyalists.'

    What he says I think is borne out by the miniscule electoral support given to the political parties linked to paramilitary organisations

    ReplyDelete
  91. Simon11:59 PM, February 20, 2014

    I am glad comments in favour of Kingsmills have been drowned out by logic and anti-sectarianism. I am only upset that they were aired at all. I suppose we all have feet of clay.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Sean Bresnahan12:17 AM, February 21, 2014

    Whatever the merits of the biggest end of the discussion Piochet and the rest of the sociopath's you lined up there do not belong in the same sentence or the same context as Oglaigh na hEireann except to say there is absolutely no equivocation between them

    ReplyDelete
  93. Sean Bresnahan12:27 AM, February 21, 2014

    Should Kingsmill have happened? Absolutely not. Why did it happen then? Because Britain's use of sectarian counter-gangs forced a response from the Provisional IRA. Who is to blame? Those who created the situation

    ReplyDelete
  94. frankie12:49 AM, February 21, 2014

    People,
    Should Kingsmill, O'Dowd/Reavey killings etc have happened. Short answer is no, in a normal society they wouldn't have. Whoever can debate the rights, wrongs etc until the middle of next week and no one will be any further down the line. Should the guilty be brought to book? Yes (again in a normal society they would) but the north is anything but (even today)..

    All anyone can hope for is the same mistakes aren't repeated. But my gut instinct tells me sooner or later history will repeat itself...

    ReplyDelete
  95. Henry JoY1:30 AM, February 21, 2014

    That eleven civilians were selected for execution for no other reason save that they were not Catholics certainly violated any normal rules of war never mind any concept of honourable military engagement. Violations like these upon the innocent by any normal evaluation are considered war crimes and as such are unjustifiable in any and every circumstance.

    Given the and long previous history of supremacy by Unionism and the intensity of, and sometimes depraved, Loyalist violence in the more immediate time frame it was inevitable that some forceful retribution would be sought by republican/nationalist militants.

    To endorse one at the expense of the other is the other is deceit and denial.
    As for republicans to use one to justify the other is deceitful and delusional.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Simon3:50 AM, February 21, 2014

    Sean Bres "Who is to blame? Those who created the situation."

    My mother used to say to me "Look what you made me do!" It was bollocks then and the sentiment is bollocks now.

    People have to take responsibility for their own actions.

    It wasn't as if those who carried out Kingsmills had no say in the matter. In fact the preceding sectarian Loyalist killings had no physical or premeditated input into those deaths. The Loyalist events might have had some input into Republican thought processes but it is too far removed from the actual act to bear ultimate responsibility.

    Some say the preceding events might have brought about the action in Kingsmills but the actual cause of the injuries and deaths were the people who pulled the triggers and that is where ultimate responsibility lies.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Sean Bresnahan7:21 AM, February 21, 2014

    11 civilians were not though 'selected for execution for no other reason save they were not Catholics' and that's the point here. Of course there were other reasons and they are found in the need to respond to Britain's dirty, terrorist proxy war, however abhorrent that response may have been. If there was some sort of sectarian killer-gang operating within the Provisional IRA then such a harrowing, dreadful event would not have occurred in isolation. You can't divorce these killings from the context in which they took place whereby British intelligence provoked a backlash, which as we now know was its intention all along, to bring about renewed hostilities between itself and the Provisional IRA. We need to seriously ask ourselves who it was that wanted peace and who it was that wanted violence. As with the events from 1969-1972 again the fault lies with the British state, I don't see how any reality-based analysis can ever come to another conclusion

    ReplyDelete
  98. AM7:23 AM, February 21, 2014

    Sean Bres,

    there is a category or club called war criminals which all war criminals belong to. It matters not whether they belonged to the IRA or Pinochet's lot, whether they perpetrated Kingsmill or Bloody Sunday. Same as torturers. Our torturer good, their torturer bad has no purchase with me. I might understand the reasons for the torture, the history that led up to it, might think the victims merit little sympathy as they hold vital information that was to our advantage, but if I think torture is a no no, then it is that.

    We may know the circumstances that preceded the war crime, may think it led to an outcome that was wholly predictable, might even have participated in the war crime had we been around regardless of what views we hold today, might offer mitigation and context, might even retain close personal ties with people who carried out war crimes. But we are left with the cold hard conclusion that if we hold that lining up an unarmed civilian population for execution is always a war crime, then Kingsmill is a war crime.

    If on the other hand we don't hold that lining up an unarmed civilian population for execution is always a war crime, then we will find a reason to exclude Kingsmill from the war crime category.

    I think there is much more merit in the first position whatever challenges it poses us in terms of our own past. And it does pose challenges. There is no doubt about that. If we tell the world what bastards the Brits were (which they indeed were) because they mowed down an unarmed civilian population it is uncomfortable when faced with the fact that we did likewise.


    ReplyDelete
  99. Sean Bresnahan7:23 AM, February 21, 2014

    The bottom line is that none of it should ever have happened

    ReplyDelete
  100. AM7:44 AM, February 21, 2014

    Sean,

    I sort of smile when I read this type of thing. Not because it is funny but because in it I see me from a few years back grasping and grappling with the type of issues you do. And it isn't easy and I didn't want or intend to come to the type of conclusions I did.

    Good luck with it. Where you end up with it only time will tell.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Fionnuala Perry8:57 AM, February 21, 2014

    Simon,
    I don't have a sectarian bone, never had and most certainly would never want to.

    As for opinions being drowned out. That's what wrong with this place opinions that don't fit or provide a more comprehensive picture are unwelcome，

    I havent read anything that suggests people were 'for' Kingsmill, understanding does not constitute 'for'

    ReplyDelete
  102. Simon10:49 AM, February 21, 2014

    Frankie- "But my gut instinct tells me sooner or later history will repeat itself... "

    Kingsmills wasn't inevitable although it did happen. One of the reasons why more sectarian killings didn't take place by the PIRA was because of a rigid structure and discipline together with a strong historical ideology that dictated that sectarianism is wrong.

    Analysts paint the Loyalist groups as having a less coherent structure and weaker discipline, certainly the UFF. The UVF had more discipline and structure than the UFF if the analysts are correct. Discipline and structure mattered less to the Loyalists as they had a policy of targeting any Catholic.

    The IRA had a policy of not targeting non-combatant Protestants to a degree where they shied away from focusing on Loyalist terrorists up until the 1990s in case it even looked sectarian. Some people say this was to prevent the British from painting it internationally as an internal sectarian dispute.

    Loyalists on the other hand had a motive for the conflict being looked at as a grubby, internal, sectarian dispute. Even today we have Unionist leaders trying to claim ethnic cleansing by Republicans.

    If it wasn't for discipline, a coherent structure and ideology more Kingsmills style events would have happened.

    If conflict returns will that same formula remain? If it doesn't any return to conflict might be unlike any we have ever known.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Henry JoY10:55 AM, February 21, 2014

    SB
    When the mini-bus was stopped there were twelve occupants on board. The assassins then called out for any Catholics there to present themselves...the one Catholic on board was ordered to absent himself...then the slaughter began. The only selection criteria was that Catholics were to be spared.
    This is the generally accepted narrative probably based on the accounts of the two men who lived to tell the sorry tale.

    These men were innocents. They were not combatants, they were not spies, they were not civilian support workers to the British war effort.
    Indeed we don't even know that they were all men of faith...all that we know is that they were selected for death for the fact that they weren't Catholic.

    Sure, in the context of the time and unfolding events I can understand and acknowledge that a response was called for...but not this...once we attempt to justify wanton acts we loose our republican souls. The targeting of innocents is repugnant and unjustifiable. There were other more honourable responses available...military and otherwise.

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  104. AM11:39 AM, February 21, 2014

    Nuala,

    where have different opinions been made unwelcome on this blog? Most opinions are unwelcome by someone but that is a matter of individual choice. You did not welcome Martin McAllister's different opinion as is your right but that kickstarted the discussion. No one is complaining about your right to challenge Martin. Some may disagree with what you say but to extend that to the point of saying that the type of opinion expressed by you is not welcome is wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  105. Sean Bresnahan11:47 AM, February 21, 2014

    Nuala as always, and has she has done throughout this thread, hits the nail on the head

    ReplyDelete
  106. Sean Bresnahan12:07 PM, February 21, 2014

    I think it's fair to say the Quill was not the subject of that comment but rather 'this place' generically speaking

    ReplyDelete
  107. AM12:16 PM, February 21, 2014

    Sean Bres,

    now you have me feeling pretty stupid! I think you are right. Apologies Nuala. My mistake.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Fionnuala Perry12:58 PM, February 21, 2014

    Mackers,
    No need to apologise.
    I was actually talking about our little messed up state, specifically with Sinn Fein in mind.
    Glad Sean thought I got it right though lol.

    ReplyDelete
  109. larry hughes1:02 PM, February 21, 2014

    Robert

    'What he says I think is borne out by the miniscule electoral support given to the political parties linked to paramilitary organisations'.

    So deceptive. Research carried out by the Irish National Caucus in the USA showed that 40% of the Northern Ireland economy in the 1980s was based on the security situation. From UDR RUC (+ reserves) Prison officers, judiciary and all the administrative and supply services linked to it. Considering that the population was roughly 55% prod 45% RC and that finding an RC in the security forces were like searching for 'hens-teeth' it is clear that the hun community derived its existence to a very large degree from keeping the taigs in their place. Practically the entire hun community (bar 15%)was engaged in the 'war effort' why vote for paramilitaries? Not happy with that, they parade through their streets and murdered them at will. Then they dump the OO unionists first sign of normal community relations and vote for the DUP.

    You are only deluding yerself, twice over. Once with your incomprehensible gobbledygook and second with your bullshite.

    Fionnuala and Sean Bres

    You are absolutely correct, I salute you!

    Simon

    I also agree if the conflict resumes it will NEED to be like never before. Not out of a desire, but out of a necessity, in order not to lose again. Right up em!!

    ReplyDelete
  110. AM1:18 PM, February 21, 2014

    Thanks Nuala

    ReplyDelete
  111. larry hughes1:31 PM, February 21, 2014

    Robert

    couple of wee typos in there as a result of my English Staffordshire Terrier-ist looking her neverending pettings. But I'm sure someone of your superior intellect will be able to remove his head from his hole or in your case 'your anus' and figure it out. Wee buns to you Robert, or again in your case, 'small pastries'.

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  112. Unknown4:21 PM, February 21, 2014

    Henry.Joy.They called for the catholic to present himself....Could it be he was pushed forward as it was thought it was the glenanne gang manning the checkpoint.Just one of the stories i remember going about at the time.

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  113. Tain Bo7:26 PM, February 21, 2014

    Larry,

    What a load of bunk and a right wing conservative copout profit before people.
    The Brits were up to their necks in spilling blood here so there is no reason they should not pay for it.
    But, no, you would rather play the priest and forgive and forget after all it is a waste of money perhaps you should be put in charge of the budget.

    And what is this “get over yourself” lark. You consistently moan about everything and it’s always someone or something to blame north or south.

    Stop moaning! Life is tough, and then it gets tougher.

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  114. Tain Bo7:35 PM, February 21, 2014

    Sean,

    by the oh, it was a result of what was going on logic at the time would that mean if the Protestants decided to jump off a cliff we should follow as it what was going on at the time.
    There was a choice they could have scarped the attack and the one bloke being hit 18 times would suggest bloodlust rage in other words murder them all if only on the premise that we can justify acting like those who murdered innocent Catholics.

    Calling it a massacre is what it was regardless of the reason or logic. Did it stop loyalists or Brits from killing Catholics and republicans?

    Hitting back at the right people would have been the better part of valour there were plenty of targets but this was not about hitting back at the right people this was about we can kill more of you.

    The Brits, the SAS, the UDR, the RUC, and the loyalist paramilitaries have plenty of sectarian blood on their hands from that time but that doesn’t excuse reprisal sectarianism.

    The way it happened is 10 men were murdered another was fortunate to survive people will excuse it as apparently they deserved it and Larry’s “get it right f’n up them” is typical cowardly speech.

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  115. larry hughes7:54 PM, February 21, 2014

    Tain Bo

    'Stop moaning! Life is tough, and then it gets tougher'.

    Had no idea you were a Marine. Semper Fi to you buddy, Semper Fi.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Tain Bo8:57 PM, February 21, 2014

    Larry,

    I would be impressed if you had added the Hoorah but being the daft eegit you are I won’t sound off.

    Moot point but I decide who is my friend so take your American salutation and place it in your vertical gluteal crease.

    Stultorum infinitus est numerus.

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  117. Henry JoY9:02 PM, February 21, 2014

    billy brooks
    'Could it be he was pushed forward as it was thought it was the glenanne gang manning the checkpoint.Just one of the stories i remember going about at the time.'

    That could be the case Billy but on the balance of probability it doesn't appear so.

    'He (the leader of the assassins) ordered them to line-up beside the bus and then asked "Who is the Catholic?'
    Taylor, Peter. Brits: The War Against the IRA. Bloomsbury Publishing, 2001. pp.188–189

    There are reports that the opposite is true Billy...'The only Catholic was Richard Hughes. His workmates—now fearing that the gunmen were loyalists who had come to kill him—tried to stop him from identifying himself'
    "Blood in the Rain". The Belfast Telegraph. 5 January 2006
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/imported/blood-in-the-rain-28255886.html

    Richard Hughes is now dead but I'm sure his testimony of that night's event still survive. Alan Black who survived despite fourteen bullet wounds has his too. The current proceeding at the Coroners Court may throw some light on your hypothesis.

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  118. Robert9:20 PM, February 21, 2014

    Larry,

    There is no notion of intellectual superiority. It hardly requires cerebral brilliance to deduce these people were murdered in circumstances that was downright wrong. You can hardly claim to be oblivious to the appearance of moral inferiority that comes by dint of attempting to find some merit in Kingsmill and presenting yourself in the manner that you have.

    'You are only deluding yerself, twice over.'

    I trust the fair minded reading this will conclude who's position on this is delusional. I think you need to revisit the stats that you cite and read them. 850,000 Unionists employed directly and indirectly in the security sector?

    ReplyDelete
  119. Sean Bresnahan10:10 PM, February 21, 2014

    For every man in the security forces there were ten in positions relating to it is my recollection - or something similar. Larry is broadly correct with his figures and again in terms of that issue his analysis is more succinct than you realise, disguised as it by his crass delivery. Don't make it not so all the same

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  120. larry hughes10:30 PM, February 21, 2014

    Robert

    I know you're a tory now, you have the kiddies back in the factories and up chimneys again with your stats.

    ReplyDelete
  121. larry hughes10:33 PM, February 21, 2014

    Taon Bo

    look up the word pejorative. Get yerself out more too ffs.

    ReplyDelete
  122. frankie12:09 AM, February 22, 2014

    Simon,
    I understand and take on board (an agree) that because of the PIRA/INLA structure etc that Kingmills, Darkleys etc where the exception rather than the rule. To me the PIRA simply said to themselves.."Fcuk this enough is enough.." And the only way for it to stop was to hit the protestant community hard. I don't believe the people involved took any pleasure from it (hope not). I believe that one day the whole thing will kick off again. And unfortunately in all wars no side sticks to the Geneva Convention. Which makes me think that mass murders will happen again.


    If conflict returns will that same formula remain? If it doesn't any return to conflict might be unlike any we have ever known.

    Larry/Simon..

    There is always the real possibility that what is happening across the globe could also happen in the North. When the welfare reforms kick in between the Euro/Council elections and the General Election..They'll hit the 99%. And it wont matter one iota if you are Catholic, Protestant or a Redneck And a big difference between the North and other parts of the world is it's armed to the teeth. Imagine workers, parents whoever walking down the Falls Rd to the City Hall. At the same time marchers walking down the Shankill & Crumlin Roads, Antrim Road, Shaws Bridge etc all for the same reasons (no one has a pot to piss in and while the folks on the hill watch porn among other things).

    So like everywhere else they send in the police to keep the people back and a riot starts, plastic bullets are fired and protesters from broadsides are shot dead, injured by the police. It would only be a matter of time before both-sides took their guns out to defend their communities. Only this time not at each other but at the oppressors....

    ReplyDelete
  123. Unknown1:23 AM, February 22, 2014

    Henry joy.When th horn blew and Mackies got out thouusands of them came down are street everyday yr in yr out .we didnt know what are mas n das were going through how could we.now these innocecent working class people attacted in mass in 69.sadly there wasnt a machinegun in place to cut them to ribbons as they plundered bombay st.cupar st clonard gds.After it went over the cunts had the brass neck to walk up cupar st back to work while the local people were told there your fellow irishmen.lol war crime.the war crime i remmber was Mackies horn blowing day in day out .

    ReplyDelete
  124. Unknown1:39 AM, February 22, 2014

    forgot a wee bit,we bate them back with bottles n stones the bastards from the shankill,A pity yer man mc..callister wasnt there .tucked up in bed that night and it was bottles n stones the people had .

    ReplyDelete
  125. Sean Bresnahan9:50 AM, February 22, 2014

    Frankie the problem is that if such a turn of events were ever to materialise the powers that be would easily divert such a unity of purpose and protect its interests by exploiting the sectarian division and turning both sides on each other - again. Sectarianism is the key to maintaining partition, partition is the key to maintain Ireland as an effective neo-colony, weak and unable to branch out on its own. These bastards know full well what they're doing and have done it all around the world - but nowhere to greater effect than here. This is the real beauty of the GFA for the Brits, sectarianism is entrenched at the very heart of it at the institutional level and is going nowhere. Look how easily they divided the people all over again with the flag dispute and all to disguise the failings at the heart of government. Imagine what they could and would do if the interests of the British themselves were threatened. Safe to say it would be time to bring out the counter-gangs again

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  126. larry hughes10:11 AM, February 22, 2014

    Billy Brooks

    Totally agree with you. It's putting the thing in its 'historical context' and the emotion and fear of the time. RCs were being murdered for fun and the 'security forces' were behind most of it on a good salary. They were all anti RC and made no bones about it. It was 'their RUC, their UDR their housing executive, N.I. Electric their Fire Service, their BT etc etc etc. Some people have short memories and in desperation to come across as politically dignified forget that their Prod neighbours lament DAY and DAILY they can't get THEIR Stormont back.

    Sadly those stalking the shadows behind false names here lamenting their fellow 'Irish-men' being abused in any way are the same types who scream for protection when those same fellow 'Irish-men' come to visit, then they are first to get onto the phone to the RUC to inform on those in the community who had the cahonies to take a stand. We all know the type of the turds I'm referring to. Hypocrites, And THEY will scream the loudest for something to 'be done' if the huns ever go crazy again. And they will phone the peelers on their neighbours when the dust settles again too.

    Perhaps they believe we should all sit back and say 'ach sure it's what the loyalists do', if the prods return again in the future to random murder of our friends and families because they feel somehow a threat from British democracy towards their way of life and culture. We should accept their anger all because some Presbyterian sat his hole on Cave Hill in the 1700s and spouted the utopian horse-crap of Protestant Catholic and Dissenter.

    For me I'd like to think if RC areas were ever attacked again some outfit would send that 'salvo' straight outa the stadium from the get-go to let the loyalist scum know it is not going to be tolerated. I'D not wait on Wolfe Tone turning up to defend the estate. Akin to Goulding sitting in Dublin telling the OIRA in Bombay Street to talk to the Loyalists coz they are 'fellow-Irishmen'. Best comedy show ever invented 'republicanism' and the best weapon in the Brit arsenal.

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  127. AM10:39 AM, February 22, 2014

    What makes Bloody Sunday such a pernicious war crime was not the religious or political affiliation of the victims who were not killed accidentally but deliberately mown down.

    The Brits knew what it was so set about maligning the victims - nail bombs in pockets and similar smears.



    ReplyDelete
  128. Henry JoY1:32 PM, February 22, 2014

    bb
    I don't know how ye managed to keep going Billy. They were truly awful times. People had every right to defend themselves from the Loyalist supremacist bigots and thugs. The 'culchies' who volunteered and wanted to go and stand alongside you guys in Belfast were told that the most effective strategy was to operate in their own rural environment...to draw fire away from Belfast and Derry...to tie down as many security forces as they could.

    Throughout all my posts I have stated that what happened in Kingsmills was unavoidable given the nature of the time.
    It is equally true to say that lining ten innocent men up against the side of their works mini-bus and pumping 140 rounds into them was unjustifiable. Other more honourable responses could have been made.

    '...we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity, or rapine'
    The Proclamation of The Irish Republic.

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  129. Anonymous3:37 PM, February 22, 2014

    go kill a bus load of prods so u prick

    ReplyDelete
  130. Tain Bo6:33 PM, February 22, 2014

    Larry,

    A big word and then your degenerate signature “ffs” as for how I spend my time that should not concern you and again perhaps you should heed some of your own advice.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Sean Bresnahan8:51 PM, February 22, 2014

    So now you're calling the Provisional IRA cowards Henry Joy? Who the fuck are you... Troll of the highest order, run along to your SDLP

    ReplyDelete
  132. larry hughes9:03 PM, February 22, 2014

    Tain Bo-tox

    recon ur like most the rest on here, provo wanabees who missed the boat, provo div2 brigade lookin for a hobby coz they missed the gravy train, or just a sad oul fart who did fuk all only 'time' in the real world, or worst of all, a mammy's boy on the pc at home. lol

    out thyself !!

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  133. larry hughes9:05 PM, February 22, 2014

    Henry Joy

    hop in the time machine, go have a chat with wolfie

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  134. Simon9:17 PM, February 22, 2014

    Sean Bres- That part of the Proclamation lists three things not to do. Don't dishonour the Republic through cowardice or inhumanity or rapine. It was legally a crime against humanity and the legal minds contributing to the Proclamation knew the meaning of inhumanity.

    Kingsmills was arguably not cowardice or rapine but killing innocent civilians purely because of their religion was certainly an act of inhumanity. The Proclamation also talks of cherishing all children of the nation, i.e. the citizens, equally. The victims of Kingsmills weren't treated as equals.

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  135. frankie10:22 PM, February 22, 2014

    the problem is that if such a turn of events were ever to materialise the powers that be would easily divert such a unity of purpose and protect its interests by exploiting the sectarian division and turning both sides on each other .

    Only if they (powers that be) are allowed to Sean. Within Loyalism are already chinks in their amor. This is what Jamie Bryson

    Martin Corey was arrested on the basis of secret evidence that was never tested before a Judge,locked in a cell without a trial or even being charged with any crime and kept there for as long as the SOS saw fit. That is absolutely scandalous.
    My problem is when people are silenced because of their political beliefs
    This Government and the police service in this Country are anti British. They are making a mockery of Justice and the principles of democracy. This has to stop. If evidence exists against Martin Corey then why can it not be tried in front of a judge? If he has broken the law then charge him and put him in jail. It may be Martin Corey today, it will be someone else tomorrow and before you know it anyone who opposes the political status quo will be plucked up and locked away in tyrannical fashion.

    Outside of market value, there isn't much difference between a big house unionist propert porfollio and a republican one.

    Republicans and Loyalists have worked together to before to eliminate a common problem ( tells me there were pragmatists on both sides. I reckon there are some today aswell). Why can't they work together in bread and butter issues?

    Could they (republicans & loyalist's) pull even a one off and bring the North to a stand still and tell the folks on the hill either to implement everything before or on St Paddy's or in a few weeks you aren't getting voted back in....

    It's doable...

    ReplyDelete
  136. Henry JoY12:06 AM, February 23, 2014

    sean bres

    Simon has articulated my intent accurately. (thanks Simon)

    larry hughes

    Hop in the time machine, go back and talk with wolfie...nah, nah larry... I'd go back and put several bags of sugar in the fuel tank of the mini-bus that was to carry those innocents to their slaughter.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Anonymous12:28 AM, February 23, 2014

    larry, ive changed my mind, ur right, they should have got them all to drive proxy bombs into packed protestant churches. right fuckin up em.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Sean Bresnahan12:55 AM, February 23, 2014

    It may well be a doable but I wouldn't hold my breath. Sectarianism is deep-rooted and will be very difficult to eradicate. I don't believe it can be so long as partition remains

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  139. Tain Bo8:25 AM, February 23, 2014

    This comment has been removed by the author.

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  140. Tain Bo8:41 AM, February 23, 2014


    Hughes Lawrence,

    I forgot to ask what you done impress us all with your tales of gallantry.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Sean Bresnahan10:10 AM, February 23, 2014

    'Henry Joy' are you an active republican or do you just come on sites like this talking pure shite because originally I thought you were an RSF man, then I realised you were fuck all of the sort and thought you were a troll, now I think you're a simple, wannabe headbanger who'll talk in circles, tripping himself up in the process. Say nothing to ye hear more ffs. From more-or-less the day and hour you began commenting on here the manner in which you approached the discussion with Mackers indicated you were likely a half-wit spoofing shite out the side of yer mouth from your bedroom, still living with yer mammy, while trying to sound clever. Either that or your punching keys from Palace Barracks behind that moniker. Regardless of any merit to what you say I just find it incredibly hard to take a man seriously that discussed republican strategy with his mother and came up with the masterplan we've all been missing - vote for the SDLP

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  142. AM10:31 AM, February 23, 2014

    I have no intention of policing this debate: big boys rules. But over the course of the past few days the sound of fury is blocking out what we have been trying to talk about.

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  143. Anonymous10:55 AM, February 23, 2014

    sean bres
    less of the slaggin people off who live at home with their mammy, im guilty as charged your honour, and whats so bad about the sdlp, they are sinn fein for slow learners after all.(or shud that be other way around) i think u are too hard on henry joy sean.

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  144. Sean Bresnahan11:40 AM, February 23, 2014

    Maybe so, maybe so. Think that'll do me for this conversation

    ReplyDelete
  145. AM11:43 AM, February 23, 2014

    Sean,

    quite a few people have been drawn into it so there is no one person. It is a discussion worth having but not a shouting match worth having.

    ReplyDelete
  146. Anonymous12:09 PM, February 23, 2014

    ur a decent man sean, i was losing rag there too with larry, yeah im finished with this one too! the great thing about blogs is its not face to face so u cant get up and smack someone in the heat of the moment!! time to chill, reflect and start it all over again on another blog haha.

    ReplyDelete
  147. larry hughes12:36 PM, February 23, 2014

    That was a refreshing diversion from the antiquated brain dead repetitive utterings of 2nd 3rd and 4th division wanabee Provos here. Once again too easy to light the touch paper with tunnel vision goons.

    Tain Bo-tox

    the phantom non sectarian hero but Shankill butcher in his spare time. PRICELESS sure ya couldn't make it up.

    Over did it on the Kingsmills thing, but the sectarian card and 'murder' is so one sided against nationalists I was just sick and tired of the same old crap pouring out. Hope you're not too miffed Mackers at my winding. OTT as it was. It was a biyt out of order to be honest.

    Don't think SDLP quite cute it any more, next election I recon it may have to be UKIP. They are for protecting the borders, so we could sleep safe knowing knife wielding psychos in zorro masks wont cut us up in our sleep haha. BRILLIANT.

    ReplyDelete
  148. larry hughes2:46 PM, February 23, 2014

    Mackers

    can I just add I find it more than a tad ironic that someone who does not use their own name (an international man of mystery....but for how long lol) somehow assumes everyone knows him and his family?

    That has me confuzzed.

    ReplyDelete
  149. larry hughes2:59 PM, February 23, 2014

    Just wondering in light of the Fatwah issued on me can I change my blog ID to Salmon Rushdie??

    ReplyDelete
  150. Fionnuala Perry3:24 PM, February 23, 2014

    Tain Bo
    With respect. I think that last piece had quite a sinister tone.

    For days now I have listened to people talking about the inhumanity around Kingsmill.
    Others like myself believe it was the inevitable and direct consequence of a marathon session of unchecked bloody murder, Bloody murder that was sanctioned and aided and abetted from the very senior echelons.

    You and everyone else are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.

    Difference of opinion Is just that!
    I could not fathom if I lived my life twice over how anyone could delight in cutting up animals, but that's difference for you! And that's how it goes.



    ReplyDelete
  151. Sean Bresnahan3:37 PM, February 23, 2014

    Nuala as always the voice of reason - and glad to see Larry admit his comments were just a wee bit blasé, but those of us who know the skitter were aware throughout of his motives - to challenge us using his provocative technique. As for those threats I'm not even gonna beat about the bush, thoroughly disgusted. Firstly that they were made against a one hundred percent sound man like Larry and secondly that they were carried in the first place. Completely unacceptable and no two ways about it

    ReplyDelete
  152. AM3:37 PM, February 23, 2014

    Larry,

    unfortunately Tain Bo's comment should not have been carried in full. Had I read it in full before I posted it(as I should have done) rather than after it I would have pulled it.

    It had a strong tone of threat and we will not facilitate threats on the blog. I have left it up because a discussion has since started in response and removing it would do two things: cover my own error and distort the discussion.

    But as I remind people on this blog I don't hold people to account for ever and a day for what they say in the comments section. Tain Bo is a valued contributer here and like the rest of us will have a rush of blood to the head. And he did act under provocation.

    There might be something to see here but it is still better to move on and discuss the issues at hand rather than drag it into cul de sacs adorned with bad temper and ill will.

    ReplyDelete
  153. larry hughes3:51 PM, February 23, 2014

    AM

    'It had a strong tone of threat'

    Get the impression you still haven't fully read it or are on a major dose of 'ether'.

    It was the rant of a nutter. But, yes, there was provocation. but then ritual slaughter with a sharp knife is considered a 'measured' response is it?

    Maybe the mind-set in the post gives us an insight into a disturbed personality and that is why he has a fake name on the blog?

    Your total lack of apology is noted.

    ReplyDelete
  154. AM4:04 PM, February 23, 2014

    Larry,

    the response was hardly measured. It was simply wrong and as Sean says should not have been carried but once it is up and you have responded and dealt with it, it has been left there - people at least know what it is you are responding to. However, you are within your rights even at this point to ask for it to be removed.

    Even in situations where people bear some responsiblity for the actions they bring down on their head we still have to oppose the action.

    ReplyDelete
  155. larry hughes4:13 PM, February 23, 2014

    AM

    I much prefer the post to remain. I have posted some shite in my time here on the hooch as we all know. But I don't recall going into great detail what I'd like to do to another blogger with a boning knife. Full frontal lobotomy by Hannibal Lector followed by a gutting seems to be the trend. Quite the step up.

    Personally I don't think stuff like that should be permitted the hidey-hole of anonymity and as was the case for our dear friend and fellow winder-upper Michael-Henry,(McIvor) Tain Bo should either 'out' himself or have it done for him.

    Unless of course he's a close friend of yours and a protected 'nutter/species'?

    ReplyDelete
  156. Sean Bresnahan4:13 PM, February 23, 2014

    All I can say is this is a truly pathetic turn of events, I'm shocked that those comments were carried whether by error or whatever. Bottom line for me is they have no place on here, especially when the man's identity is concealed. Much ado about nothing if you ask me - Larry's an eejit at times and pushes buttons - but nothing, and I mean nothing, warrants that type of thing. Tain's opinions are mostly solid but how can you expect people like Larry to respect them when they're made from behind a moniker and now carrying the threat of violence? It's incumbent on everyone here on the Quill to demand this despicable and cowardly threat against our good friend is immediately lifted. This is truly beyond the pale and I need to know that Larry's safety is assured or I for one am done on here

    ReplyDelete
  157. Feel te love4:27 PM, February 23, 2014

    When the conflict was raging in the north, there should have been a thousand kingsmills visited upon the protestant community. The moralities of the proclamation served as nothing more than a set of handcuffs for republicans. I would rather be sitting here now saying it was wrong to perpatrate 1000 kingsmills as opposed to just the one. I dont say this because I am sectarian but because the northern irish protestant is one of the the most sectarian communities in the world. They in the most part were raised to hate catholics. Logic goes out the window when dealing with these people, even to this very day catholics are being beaten to death on the streets as a result of the sectarian indoctrination these headers go through. Thankfully we are now living in a time of relative peace. Lets hope it stays that way, though that does seem under constant threat from loyalist/protestant thugs who dont want to accept democracy when it favours them not.

    ReplyDelete
  158. AM4:33 PM, February 23, 2014

    Larry wants it left so that's it sorted.

    There was never any confusion about who Michaelhenry was. I won't be outing anybody even when they gut me from behind a moniker. Goes with the turf. But it is something that has no place in discussion either anonymous or other wise.

    I agree that the threat should be rescinded immediately. It should never have appeared but got through. But it is what happens at times when we become used to a commenter who has no history of causing this type or problem - we can take our eye off the ball. Quite often the comments of both larry and Sean Bres go up without more than a glance at the truncated version that comes through on the web.

    In any event it is something we need to get right in future.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Wolfsbane4:35 PM, February 23, 2014

    Guys, let me offer a few observations/reflections on the OP.

    1. I don't see Kingsmill as naked sectarianism or naked ethnic cleansing - but an ethnic reprisal, in a sequence of ethnic attacks and reprisals. That is, the IRA were not out to kill all Protestants/Planters, but chose to kill this group as a reprisal to discourage similar attacks on their people (Catholic/Gael).

    2. I've never understood exactly why the Loyalists chose to kill ordinary Catholics/Gaels rather than known Republicans. They had enough information to identify sufficient for the purpose. Was it laziness, just because it provided easy targets? Was it strategic - to break off support for the IRA?

    3. I don't rule out killing civilian populations in the course of war, if no other option is available to ensure the defense of our nation against that nation's aggression. Total war has its place in extremity, as in WWII. Area bombing of Germany was the Second Front so needed by Russia; in Japan it was needed to avoid the very extensive casualties an invasion would have entailed. National guilt can bring national consequences.

    4. We would be better stepping back from too much whataboutery on individual incidents and instead focus on the morality of the war in the first place - what blame attaches to each side for the circumstances leading to use of arms, and what lessons can be learned so we can avoid such sinful behaviour in the future.

    We have heard here that the 'huns' started it all with the murders on the Shankill road in '66. The 'huns' might suggest that the 'taigs' celebrated the murders of the earlier Border Campaign and were using the civil Rights movement as a prelude to a renewed campaign. And on it goes.

    A clear examination of the policies and actions of each side before '69 would help us see where it all went wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Anonymous4:45 PM, February 23, 2014

    sean, i said i was gonna finish with the last comment but i just want to say i prefer stayin anonymous because i had a very serious fallin out with former comrades (and nearly every person i know) over dirty rotten slander i went thru (a slander i wudnt wish on my worst enemy) and its still far from sorted and i cant wait to comment under my own name when i feel it is even half sorted coz i would like them to know exactly what i think of them, but until then i will remain grouch the annoying anonymous grouch o' marxist. dont leave this blog, tain mite hav been pisd off if someone said somethin about his ma. i think we should all chill for a day. anyone lookin at these comments wud think we are all nuts. maybe we are all a bit nuts. i am. and proud of it.

    ReplyDelete
  161. larry hughes5:12 PM, February 23, 2014

    Sean Bres and Fionnuala

    your support is greatly appreciated. Thanks for that. Sean don't depart the bog. Your posts are among the more intelligent and therefor more difficult to pick wee holes in. (Smart arse).

    I've said some daft stuff on here to get a rise, and even tho Tain Bo has taken the biscuit big time here, it's not that long ago Fionnualla and I were arguing about lesbians with blue doc martin boots and internet brides lol

    Grouch,
    the slander thing is all around us, and unrestricted from behind a mask. I've had that as we all have, I think better to be open and let them sling away. If they think they know everything then perhaps that's actually a blessing in disguise. They know fuck-all then don't they.

    Starting to sound like a family on here.....oh dear!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  162. Simon6:30 PM, February 23, 2014

    Feel te Love "When the conflict was raging in the north, there should have been a thousand kingsmills visited upon the protestant community". Thankfully you weren't in charge of strategy during the conflict here.

    "I dont say this because I am sectarian but because the northern irish protestant is one of the the most sectarian communities in the world." You mightn't have said what you did 'because' you are sectarian but they are comments of a sectarian nature and as many a person who uses racist comments prequalifies such statements with "I am not a racist but..." it doesn't negate their racism and your qualification doesn't negate your sectarianism.

    We are lucky to have had progressive leaders of Republicanism in the past. If we had a few leaders of the calibre of those of 1916 today we'd have a better chance of a united Ireland than we would if we went on a sectarian rampage.

    I wouldn't like to be a citizen in a republic which was built or founded on genocide and a thousand Kingsmills would have been just that.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Sean Bresnahan6:37 PM, February 23, 2014

    To my mind it is indeed like family on here and Tain is a part of that too, you can even count Micheal Henry among the clan even if he was dropped at birth or whatever the fuck happened him. Yeah Lar definitely kept pushing at the boundaries (as he tends to do the wee rift) but I'm not happy that the blog can be used to openly threaten someone like that. I hope Tain see's the wrong in his comments and makes amends with Larry, it would mean a lot as far as I'm concerned

    ReplyDelete
  164. AM6:57 PM, February 23, 2014

    Sean Bres,

    Tain Bo made a wrong call. I messed up by not checking the thing. Larry is alright with it remaining up even though he has serious issues with it.

    I feel Tain Bo should withdraw his comment. Nobody can be threatened on the blog whatever their views. And as the blogger it is my responsibility to ensure it doesn't happen so I think Larry is due an apology for that faux pas.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Wolfsbane7:38 PM, February 23, 2014

    Feel te love said:
    'They in the most part were raised to hate catholics.'

    Your're wrong. We were raised in the most part to fear Catholics. Or rather, those Catholics who determined to force them into a Catholic Gaelic Irish Republic. Since one cannot tell what is in the mind of others if they do not openly state it, all Catholics came under suspicion.

    Our neighbour with whom we got on so well might be the loving and harmless man or woman they appeared to be; but they might well be marking us out for assassination at the appropriate time. That puts a strain on things.

    Defensiveness in the face of the Nationalist/Republican assertion that we Unionists had no right to remain out of a UI, and that we should be forced into one by force if necessary, is not sectarianism.

    Sectarianism/ethnic-hatred is where one wishes ill of the 'others', and especially when one puts that ill-will into practice.

    That some Republicans would use ethnic cleansing to achieve a UI is no surprise to any PUL. We took that to be the standard (if mostly unwritten)policy. We are now rather encouraged to hear other Republicans repudiate the concept.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Fionnuala Perry7:42 PM, February 23, 2014

    Larry,
    In the past you and I have traded our fair share of insults.
    I think the boots and internet brides were at the lesser reading on the insult barometer.

    Then I woke up and smelt the coffee. Probably chloroform knowing Larry.
    Seriously, it took a while to realise I was being wound up!!
    (Well at least I think I was)

    I agree with Sean, Larry throws the odd provocative though our way ! Thoughts that are out there but few will ever venture to say.
    Some of us laugh, some respond, some get antagonised and some just feel the need to strangle him, purely in a hypothetical sense of course.

    Death can be fatal and I personally hope Larry gets a reprieve to allow him to insult another day. ( provided it's not me of course.)

    ReplyDelete
  167. Anonymous9:29 PM, February 23, 2014

    appreciate advice larry but things are very intense lately so ill stay anon another while.

    fionnuala - death can be fatal - they are the words of a born o' marxist. you are going straight to the top of this non-movement.

    ReplyDelete
  168. Fionnuala Perry9:39 PM, February 23, 2014

    Grouch,
    I knew you would be impressed. I just hope the rest of the non movement is.

    ReplyDelete
  169. larry hughes11:45 PM, February 23, 2014

    To be honest 90% of my posts have a general element of the 'wind-up' or cynical twist to them. NOT telling which 10% are genuine though that would spoil the fun.

    Nualla had no idea who you were when were sparring partners but I did put the flair up at an early stage I was on here as a devil's advocate mostly.

    To my mind if there wasn't the odd 'baby-nuke' lobbed into the proceedures it would resemble a republican 'yes' conference.

    Anyhow, Tain Bo generally seemed sound, not sure what happened there but shit happens. As I've said before at the end of the day it's only 'print. No1 is hurt.

    AND I forgive you Fionnuala for all them awful things you said lol

    ReplyDelete
  170. Fionnuala Perry9:33 AM, February 24, 2014

    Larry,
    We are all guilty of it. Pushing too far and then getting hot and bothered when we in turn are pushed too far.

    You may have been winding up on some of your points but in your wind up you did actually touch on feelings and thinking which was and actually is out there.
    In fact to cocoon ourselves from the reality of such beliefs is pure silliness.

    I'm glad you didn't end up as someone's Sunday roast.
    I couldn't have been mine though ( veggie and all that)

    Hope you live to fight another day and we give us the chance to say Dr Hughes, we presume?

    ReplyDelete
  171. frankie9:37 AM, February 24, 2014

    the problem is that if such a turn of events were ever to materialise the powers that be would easily divert such a unity of purpose and protect its interests by exploiting the sectarian division and turning both sides on each other

    What I know Sean is a country can operate efficiently without a government. Belgium went 500+ days and the place didn't implode. People went about their everyday life..without much (if any) disruption of their daily routines..

    I am constantly reading about how history repeats itself..Why can't it repeat like the outdoor relief riots in 1932? Almost the same conditions exist today as then.. Banking collapse, a few getting rich and the rest left on the scrap heap...


    However, the most important thing about 1932 is that it was a great episode in the history of our class. For a short time the whole rotten all-class alliance of unionism was cracking. The theory that Protestant and Catholic workers would never unite was exposed as rubbish and the events of the strike provide an inspiration for those of us who see tackling sectarianism as a job that can't be neglected. Let us learn from the mistakes but let us also learn what is possible when workers come together.

    Sean sectarianism can be broken down..

    ReplyDelete
  172. Anonymous11:11 AM, February 24, 2014

    frankie, well said a cara, and another thing is we have our own media now - THIS THING IM TYPING ON - it is liberating the bastards dont own the means of mass communication (mass disinformation) anymore, lying bastards, the main stream media is a dying whore now and will be gone long before we are old. my message to all TPQers is stop buying newspapers and watching mainstream telly. a mass boycott of mass media. put all those ruth dudley eoghan haris fintan otool kevin myers and all those bastards out of work. they would have to set up their own blogs then but nobody wud listen to them as they are the voice of corporate whore globalist mi5 and are nothing without their backing. STOP THE PRESS! we are blessed having the net. it is an awesome gift.as regards sectarianism frankie, i wil always be a bit of a bigot to catholics and prods especially u irish bastards.

    ReplyDelete
  173. Henry JoY12:33 PM, February 24, 2014

    What an unpleasant experience it has been to follow this discourse. From my perspective it has generated much more heat than light.

    Provocative therapy and provocative debating techniques Larry have inherent limitations, dangers and consequences. Yes, they do as Nuala alludes draw stuff out of the shadows, stuff that doesn't want to present but it's seriously disrespectful; a form of violent mind f*cking when used to excess.

    Táin Bó you done the right thing in taking down your post. I hope you're all right.

    ReplyDelete
  174. Tain Bo3:10 PM, February 24, 2014

    Henry JoY,

    it was indeed the proper thing to do as it was completely out of character and rightfully has no place on the Quill.

    I reacted rather than thinking and on that issue I apologise to the quill and to the decent people who post with the intention of debating and not baiting.

    You handled the issue with common sense and finesse and I completely agree with your sentiment though do not excuse myself for letting anger get the better of me.

    Thank you for your concern I am feeling much better and hopefully one day I get to repay you in kind.

    Again my apology to the Quill and to the decent posters.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Henry JoY5:27 PM, February 24, 2014

    Thanks TB.

    ReplyDelete
  176. frankie6:15 PM, February 24, 2014

    Does this out pouring of peace & love mean last weekend hooch has worn off?

    ReplyDelete
  177. Tain Bo7:36 PM, February 24, 2014

    Frankie,

    I would be a happy camper if I could blame the hooch, sadly to say I was stone cold sober.

    ReplyDelete
  178. Sean Bresnahan8:21 PM, February 24, 2014

    I think at this stage Tain we should forget it and move on. Hoped you'd apologise to Larry, not to see anyone in sack cloth and ashes but because it was him you threatened. Also hoped there'd be a quid pro quo in return but alas none of it's to be. If though the two of ye's are big enough and boul' enough to at least admit to yourselves things went just a wee bit too far then that'll do for me so long as there's no genuine threat. We all say things in rage, as grouch said last night anyone following that would think we're a crowd of headers on here. Still can't believe how crazy it all got but just goes to show how much the discussion means to those involved which I suppose is a positive. We've all abused Tony's forum with this craic and no doubt exhausted his patience so in future a better effort should be made by all of us, including myself, to keep it clean - it's the least he deserves from us. Over and out let's close this one down

    ReplyDelete
  179. Tain Bo9:38 PM, February 24, 2014

    Sean,

    I had already left it in the past of nowhere, where it belongs.

    ReplyDelete
  180. Feel te love10:55 PM, February 24, 2014

    Dead on Sean

    What was that?. Your,Theres a new sheriff in town, post.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Sean Bresnahan11:38 PM, February 24, 2014

    Lol sorry about that, fully deserved. Just trying to move the situation on

    ReplyDelete
  182. Henry JoY10:17 AM, February 25, 2014

    Your commitment to more honourable terms of engagement sean bres are duly noted. (lol)

    ReplyDelete
  183. Wolfsbane7:00 PM, February 25, 2014

    Guys, one more observation on the OP:

    I appreciate why some Republicans repudiate Kingsmill: they see it as a sectarian/ethnic slaughter, unjustified in a war against the British State.

    Unionists do not see the validity of your argument: we see every assassination of our people as sectarian/ethnic slaughter.

    Your war was not against the British State (even though you may have sincerely thought it was)- it was against the British people in Ulster. That is, you wanted to force us into a United Ireland and were willing to kill any of us who got in your way.

    You may have seen a soldier, policeman, prison officer, judge, or those who cooked, cleaned, or built their bases as legitimate targets - but they were our fathers, brothers, sisters,etc.

    You were murdering us when you ambushed them in their homes and places of work. Kingsmill was no different in our eyes - just a starker example of your determination to defeat and oppress us.

    That's the reality that put all Catholics in the frame as potential targets, by virtue of their support for your campaign.

    That's why we (Planter & Gael)really do have to think our situation through - and not just make the best of what we have in the hope the war does not break out again.

    ReplyDelete
  184. Simon7:58 PM, February 25, 2014

    Wolfsbane- The Catholic " soldier, policeman, prison officer, judge, or those who cooked, cleaned, or built their bases" were killed in equal measure. People weren't killed in the main because they were Protestants. Incidents like Kingsmills were the exception to the rule. It doesn't negate the horror or innate wrongness of sectarian murders like that but to suggest people were killed purely due to their religion is a falsehood.


    "That's the reality that put all Catholics in the frame as potential targets, by virtue of their support for your campaign."


    The normal support for Sinn Fein during the Troubles was about 10% and even less supported violence and even less still supported the killing of Protestants purely because of their religion. So to suggest all Catholics were legitimate targets because they supported the PIRA is also a falsehood and a despicable one at that giving your complaint about Protestant combatants etc who were killed as I have already pointed out along with their Catholic colleagues by the PIRA.

    I don't know if you are being intentionally obtuse or if the Loyalists were really as thick as people paint them but Loyalists carried out an intentionally sectarian campaign and whining and moaning trying to justify the unjustifiable isn't going to wash.

    ReplyDelete
  185. Tain Bo9:17 PM, February 25, 2014

    Wolfsbane,

    correct me if I am wrong but the term ethnic cleansing is relatively new in NI.
    It is not something I can recall from the 70s, 80s, and 90s. As well as the term cultural genocide which I have heard both in my opinion unrealistic and only serve as propaganda value.

    If the IRA had a policy of ethnic cleansing either spoken or unspoken the facts of the conflict would contradict such a policy.
    Without doubt the causality figures would have been greater which obviously would have escalated the conflict something that the British would not want and did not want.

    Sectarianism existed and people on both sides no matter how innocent were possible easy prey.
    If anything your logic would work in favour of Catholics being the victims of small scale cleansing as you suggest all of us Catholics were the enemy.

    The Miami Show Band massacre would shed a little light on all Catholics are the enemy.
    Had the members of the security forces along with the loyalists actually pulled of the plan to stop them plant a bomb in their van and then let them drive off knowing the bomb would explode and the headline probably would have been Miami Show Band bombers.

    Even though the Brits would have been able to tell the source of the bomb they probably would have not disagreed and feed the yarn as such.

    The plan was not only to murder them but also to gain from the publicity after the fact showing that all Catholics were in the IRA.
    Hardly ethnic cleansing but a well constructed plan showing intent and collusion.

    Why would the PUL expect republicans or Catholics to have faith in the security forces? Back in the 70s getting stopped was always a problem in my way of thought getting stopped by Brit soldiers was the lesser of 3 evils as the RUC and UDR were rank with your logic that all Catholics were the enemy.

    ReplyDelete
  186. Anonymous9:26 PM, February 25, 2014

    wolfesbane,
    since ira ceasefire, how many innocent men women and children of various religions from different countries has the british state killed along with their american friends?(over a million in iraq alone) and do you see this as sectarian/ethnic slaughter or a war on terror.some day the chickens will come home to roost and God help us all on this island if the 'terrorists' see ireland as part of britain.

    ReplyDelete
  187. larry hughes10:31 PM, February 25, 2014

    'You may have seen a soldier, policeman, prison officer, judge, or those who cooked, cleaned, or built their bases as legitimate targets - but they were our fathers, brothers, sisters, etc'.

    And I thought Billy Wright was dead. Silly me.

    ReplyDelete
  188. Tain Bo11:20 PM, February 25, 2014

    Larry,

    the logic inferred makes as much sense as buying a bucket of Union Jack paint.
    It demonstrates the veracity of how naked sectarian thought was not just an excuse for loyalist paramilitaries but also for ordinary Protestants.

    It appears that our Catholic victims were seen as having no family which shows that PUL sectarian discrimination was an ethos rather than a result of the conflict.

    I would disagree with Wolfsbane as I knew and know Protestants who despised that line of thought as much as they despised loyalist paramilitaries, much as they despised all the violence.
    So to state that all of the PUL was in agreement with all Catholics are the enemy is a far cry from the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  189. Fionnuala Perry11:22 PM, February 25, 2014

    Wolfsbane,
    They have been murdering Catholics here since the formation of the state.

    Now you are attempting to justify it by telling us the Unionist community felt it if it was someone's grandmas half brother or some cousins six times removed home help.

    Loyalist, unionists, UDR, UVF, UDA, B Specials, Police and Brits murdered with impunity here and murdered long before there was a shot fired in self defence.

    I didn't Kingsmill think was unjustifiable. Not that it matters because we are damned by Unionism either way.

    ReplyDelete
  190. larry hughes12:42 AM, February 26, 2014

    Tain Bo

    I saw a you tube link yesterday which had Willie Frazer interviewing a woman on the fleg issue who first stammered this isn't their country, this isn't Ireland before correcting herself to insist this is Northern Ireland. Never mind what country, what planet ARE these goons on?

    They arrived here uninvited and NEVER attempted to integrate or establish a level playing field at any time in their history here.

    They will become an ever increasing minority still screaming 'no surrender' whatever that means today.

    Just a thought, but were Protestants coming from church services to shoot Taigs? Seeing as it was all in defence of their version of Christian faith.

    ReplyDelete
  191. larry hughes12:46 AM, February 26, 2014

    Fionnuala

    If nationalists adopted the loyalist mentality and stratagem of the entire community being held responsible would loyalists understand the 1000 Kingsmills as justified rather than the solitary 'one' attempt at stemming the tsunami of loyalist murders?

    ReplyDelete
  192. Simon12:57 AM, February 26, 2014

    Tain Bo- "So to state that all of the PUL was in agreement with all Catholics are the enemy is a far cry from the truth."

    Very true!

    Not only are Loyalists trying to paint Republicans as overwhelmingly sectarian, a sort of mirror image of themselves, but the Unionist politicians are trying to focus on the IRA as somehow involved in ethnic cleansing although Loyalists intentionally killed innocent non-involved, random Catholics almost to the exclusion of any other group of people.

    The average Protestant might have agreed with the killing of an IRA volunteer but not, in my experience any non-combatants. It is an intrinsic human ethic, something innate to humankind that killing people who have no input into why they die is wrong. Law often represents ethics and morals and we designate something as a crime when it violates these standards.

    The murder of innocent people whether at Kingsmills or elsewhere is a war crime. It is a war crime even if the perpetrators are on your side because justice is blind.

    Unionist politicians don't even mention ethnic cleansing when it comes to Loyalist paramilitaries even though Sutton's Index of Deaths puts the percentage of sectarian killings of Catholic civilians from the total Loyalist victims at 78%. The percentage of sectarian Protestant victims from the total of IRA victims is 7.6%.

    This is the real face of Unionism's much talked about "revisionism". Loyalists didn't have a sincere or worthy objective, they targeted Catholics indiscriminately, the British were happy that Loyalists were engaging in a grubby sectarian war and unhappy that Republicans weren't playing ball. There is no legitimacy in Loyalism from the arbitrary border and it's enforcement through the killing of innocent Catholics to the ham-fisted attempts at revisionism. If it wasn't such a serious topic it would be laughable.

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  193. Fionnuala Perry9:40 AM, February 26, 2014

    Larry,
    The only difference between the Loyalist death squads their masters and the Klu Klux Klan was the Klan covered their faces.
    The same mentality drove both racism and pure sectarian hatred.
    If the Klan were now trying to provide justification they would be laughed at.

    Meanwhile here in the backwoods of beyond arch bigots like Frazier can openly state, that the Brits should ask for the money back for the bullets the put into people.
    I know recently someone offered an explanation as to how Frazier crawled down to the depths of depravity but realistically I would say it has to be always there lying untapped below the surface.

    Not so long ago we heard the same utterance about Murphy and Wright.

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  194. Anonymous10:00 AM, February 26, 2014

    tpqers, the revisionists down here in the south's latest thing is the 'genocide' of protestants in cork during war of independence. the same historians who say people died because the potato crop failed in 1840's and never mention that half the british empires troops came here during that period and took food to ports under armed guard. This country was full to the gills with food and they have managed to convince the world that 1.5 million died because of 'famine'. This is what we are up against. Chris fogarty has the names of the dragoons who were deployed here on his site. I want to believe that the figure he estimates that died (5mill) is incorrect but i fear it isnt. i refer to that period now as the Gaelic Holocaust. We are up against genocidal maniacs. god bless that guy fogarty he has been thru the mill for ireland.

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  195. larry hughes12:33 PM, February 26, 2014

    Simon

    'Unionist politicians don't even mention ethnic cleansing when it comes to Loyalist paramilitaries even though Sutton's Index of Deaths puts the percentage of sectarian killings of Catholic civilians from the total Loyalist victims at 78%. The percentage of sectarian Protestant victims from the total of IRA victims is 7.6%.'

    A powerful post on your part and that segment I've copied puts things well in perspective.

    Grouch and Fionnuala

    It is for good reason SKY TV and the BBC are bombarding us with crap day and daily. A polite voice constantly drilling us with what they want programmed into us. In the case of SKY NEWS every 15 minutes, it's like the population are remedial students and they need to make double sure we all get their message.

    The Downey case yesterday brought it home to me that the media is still a front line weapon. The fact the man was not extradited previously due to no evidence is ignored. Sky and BBC present the matter as one of a guilty murderer escaping custody. It was an instant reminder of the part played by a dirty media in the dirty war here. It was never decommissioned.

    Just as in the case of the ex French peeler questioned regarding the murder of a UK/Iraq family there a year or so ago. The man was guilty the moment he was arrested. A luger gun was found in his house among other legally held weapons. The fact it was a different calibre to the one used in the murders was almost an inconvenient detail to the reporters in true UK tradition. JSTICE IS INDEED BLIND!!

    SF should be on the front foot highlighting the corruption of the RUC/Courts in the wee 6 counties during the troubles. The framing and injustice meted out are surely an area of research screaming out to be exposed. Depositions from trials, both loyalist and republican would expose it all for the farce that it was and remains. Maybe if a few more of their SF on-the-runs are pulled in the party may take a fresh interest in that area.

    Of course the media is now also being used against the huns. The fleg protest on you-tube certainly shows many more people on the street than the BBC presented in its broadcasts.

    'The more things change - the more they stay the same'.

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  196. Anonymous1:58 PM, February 26, 2014

    larry, well said a cara (even tho i cald u a hemaroid the other nite) yes u hit the nail on the head. but listen, we are decommissioning the main stream media every day on this thing. those bastards are going down. by the way sean bres has wrapped up this blog a few times now, i nearly died laughin at feeltelove slaggin him a few comments ago.

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  197. Anonymous2:52 PM, February 26, 2014

    The present day assumption by the PUL community that the IRA and other armed republican groups were carrying out a systematic policy of genocide on ’protestants’ is nothing short of a laughable PUL delusion. While militant republicans did target many many ’protestants’ it was their occupations of employment and/or their association with sectarian murder gangs and not their religious faith that made them targets. History has shown that republican militants did at isolated times detract from their main non sectarian policy and went ‘off the rails’ by targeting protestants out of pure frustration as in the case of Kingsmill at the PUL’s condoning the deaths of innocent Catholics.

    One could argue what about the bombings of La Mone, Enniskillen, Ballykelly and the Shankill etc?, but the reality was that in all those cases non ‘involved’ protestants were not the true intended targets of these atrocities, in all these attacks militant crown forces or loyalist militias were the intended targets and that’s fact.

    If ordinary catholics or militant republicans had had an anti protestant agenda which the PUL community wish to believe then why weren’t protestants such as the ones who lived their whole lives in nationalist/republican areas not killed? I was born and raised on a nationalist/republican working class housing estate in Derry and I know of a least a half dozen protestant families who lived among us and who were treated with the same respect as any other catholics families in my area. How come? the PUL community might ask, the answer to that is because they (the protestant families) remained integrated with their catholic neighbours and treated them as normal human beings and not the second class, dirty rotten Taig scum that mainstream PUL have bought into. It’s also a fact that there were protestant members of the IRA and other republican groups who lost their lives fighting on the republican side and that blows the PUL’s argument clean out of the water. Following the ceasefire in the 1990’s a monument was erected in my local neighbourhood in Derry commemorating IRA members killed by the BA/RUC and one of the tradesmen who erected the monument was a protestant who lived his whole life in the area but whose family had NO connection to republicanism or the IRA!

    Btw, could someone from the PUL community tell me what does the abbreviation LOL stand for, is it Laugh Out Loud?

    If it does it makes more sense,
    PUL-ling your leg LOL!

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  198. Tain Bo3:14 PM, February 26, 2014

    Larry,

    wee Willie has been at it for so long it is a way of life for him and anyone that listens to his disturbing anti Irish monologues for which buy now you would think he would have received an Oscar for best actor in his own version of his crusade.

    You can’t win on the planters’ rights logic they were here second so in the world of irony that makes them first.
    It is not about preserving the Union but preserving their now archaic version of Unionism which evolved different from Great Britain.

    I think that fear of becoming the minority is the reason they still cry no surrender which is a good question as to what it means today.

    I don’t know maybe that is where they hatched all their plans but the Protestants I seen coming from church were all well dressed and very friendly.

    If we believe that narrative then I think we should give wee Willie his own 24 dribble TV show.

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  199. Tain Bo4:18 PM, February 26, 2014

    Simon,

    that is the disturbing thing that this sort of narrative to some is gospel.

    Why it doesn’t hold water wouldn’t take a genius to figure out. Kitson would not approve of escalating the war part of the true power and value of propaganda is visible manipulating the loyalists was simple.

    All the Brits had to do was add to the very well established anti Irish/Catholic sentiment from Unionists/loyalists anything to make the IRA demons.
    Which in turn made all republicans demons and naturally that extended to the ordinary uninvolved Catholics which was no accident of the conflict but well orchestrated Brit propaganda which worked very well?

    The Brits hygienically peace keepers between the warring Catholic and Protestant tribes naturally the dirty war had an acceptable level of innocent kills.

    Even though you point out the sectarian statistics Unionists defend it with the logic that they were defending their people and that line of thought is still the accepted version today.

    It was a vicious conflict so everyone had something to fear but to say that all Protestants feared all Catholics or vice versa just amounts to sectarian propaganda.

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  200. Henry JoY4:42 PM, February 26, 2014

    Well done Wolfsbane.

    You have cleverly taken advantage of both veiled sectarian undertones and scandalous overt declarations in earlier comments to 'reasonably' present and justify your own, and also those of the Loyalist murder gangs, similar motives.

    I do not contest the veracity that such interpretations and justifications as you outlined exist in a substantial section of loyalism. It's merely a sanitised reiteration of "Any Taig will do".
    The random selection for death for no reason save one's religious preferences or the religion one happen to be born into is always sectarian...always.
    Selection for execution for no other reason than one is born into a certain cultural group or affiliates with a cultural perspective is always a form of ethnic cleansing ...always.
    You can manipulate, twist and protest all you like Wolfsbane but loyalist strategies of humiliation, intimidation and assassination were in the main, as the stats in Simon's post confirms, nothing but naked sectarianism.

    As I write this I remember a boyhood friend...I was going to call him a school-friend but then I remembered he was absent more often as he was present...I don't believe he ever attended secondary school though he would have been lawfully required to do so. He had become an unofficial employee at the local cattle mart, loading and unloading cattle, running errands for cattle-dealers and farmers, ten-bob here and a quid there, that was his thing.
    In his early twenties on an Easter Sunday night or maybe the Saturday night before Eater he was shot to death by a loyalist murder-gang.
    Yes...he was I believe wearing an 'Easter Lilly'... though I wouldn't be surprised if he'd been wearing a 'Poppy' the previous November. He was the type of guy who would have taken a copy of 'The War Cry' or 'Republican News' and put something in the tin (I doubt he could have read much of either); bought a raffle ticket regardless whether it were for The 'Sons of Ulster' flute band or the dog & cats' home... Another ironic twist to this sorry tale is that this guy's father was a working-class man who previously got a handful of votes as an Alliance candidate in the locals.

    Though I acknowledge our different paths and indeed welcome your perspective Wolfsbane I cannot agree with your manipulative interpretations of what was to any reasonable evaluation clearly a sectarian campaign.

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