A: Examine their consciences. Take a good look at what is going on. If they agree - ok. If not then speak out." - Fourthwrite interview with Brendan Hughes
Guest writer, Tain Bo, with a contribution to the ongoing discussion on physical force republicanism. Tain Bo is a regular commenter on TPQ.
Following the wider debate that has followed on from the News Letter’s coverage of the armed republican groups it struck me as unfortunate that some of the arguments made against the type of views being expressed in the News Letter were contradictory, misleading and self-defeating. On occasion a softly, softly approach has been taken which neither fooled nor impressed me coming as it does from a source that conveniently stands on both sides of the street and sits in the middle.
Personally, it is disheartening for me to speak out against the militant factions knowing and understanding that the prisoners will eventually get the news and that it will have an effect on their morale.
Speaking out against armed force creates residual guilt that enhances the sense of betrayal - not the betrayal of a lost cause but of the prisoners. I shall remain an advocate for their rights.
These strong politically astute minds are just being wasted and to a greater extent their existence is rarely acknowledged. Is this deliberate on behalf of the militant factions as they wait until the jails fill up with sufficient numbers before they begin to attempt gaining sympathetic support?
Is it a case of blindsiding the youth that follow the militants, keeping from them what awaits them once the knock on the door arrives? Granted, it is much better than the other bitterly cold reality of being shot dead.
The term “armed struggle” isn’t exactly true as it is more of a token resistance, more symbolic in nature than practical: one that probably sounds legitimate to the youth yet to date has proven ineffectual, restricted and more often than not compromised.
This could be viewed in two ways: either the command structure is aware they are ill-equipped and limited in what we could call legitimate targets, but lack the ability to strike with the desired efficiency needed before being considered by British intelligence as a serious threat to their rule.
If they did develop some efficiency and ability to carry out attacks then they face the problem that comes along with that ability: that being consistency and sustainability.
Judging by the recklessness they have displayed lately - which is more of a reactionary display of desperation rather than any credible display of force and discipline - I assume they understand how weak their position is.
On the other hand the security forces don’t display any sense of urgency as they appear stronger, more confident and better equipped and in control. This is by no means accidental as they know for the time being they have reduced the ability of militant republicans to a de facto police force in certain areas.
This has to be a crippling blow to their morale knowing that the PSNI have them literally hemmed in. And the Gardai have a reasonably tight noose around them in the south. The armed resistance is being directed on British terms almost to the point of taunting the militants to strike as they know they have them in a military box.
I have read one commenter expressing pride at a so called “Conflict Resolution Services” where street court is held and “potential victims” can show up and meet with representatives of “armed groups.” Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t that counterproductive and basically assisting the PSNI by taking some of their workload onboard which in turns frees up more PSNI to investigate militant republicans?
I am sure British Intelligence is happy with that initiative and would encourage the British government to finance more centres like that. Sounds like a wee goldmine of information for the PSNI.
This only highlights how weak the militants are and as I suggest they have been reduced to chasing down the local hoods. Isn’t that a form of quasi political policing? Even worse, an advocate of the centres describes the people who are summoned there as “potential victims”. This sounds more sinister than reasonable. What right does militant republicanism have to interfere with the civil liberties of “our citizens”? Whether we like it or not the anti social elements have the rights to a fair trial.
I am unsure of the logic behind this token resistance but it certainly cannot bring its war to the British.
When the leadership surrendered conditionally and peace was accepted there was a heavy sigh of relief in both communities that life would be free from Paramilitary rule.
What has militant republicanism accomplished apart from the very visible factional division steaming from counterproductive disputes as to whom are the rightful heirs to be seated on the lost Provisionals’ throne? What can they achieve when they cannot see eye to eye and why do they expect people to support this division? They know it, we all know it – the armed groups cannot deliver a military victory over the British establishment. Why then mislead the people, especially the youth who in my opinion are far brighter than I was as a youth?
When we put this present “armed struggle” in context it tends to lose its bite. Even its bark is muffled as it lacks a clear political voice. Dissecting the militant think tank, it appears they are relying more on hope rather than any persuasive military, political, or ideological argument. I say “hope” based on the fact that I see no evidence of an enlightened military strategy as they repeat the same old tactics which at times make it difficult to discern who the enemy is.
Disrupting people’s lives with hoax or real bombs cannot be regarded as targeting the “enemy”. This tactic only infuriates the ordinary people who have to navigate around a blocked off road or seek shelter when they are forced from their homes.
The recent large bomb by proxy was fortunate in that it failed to detonate. The cowardly tactic of forcing an innocent man to drive the bomb to its destination should be condemned and never repeated as it was callous, showing no regard for the man’s life nor the people going about their business that day. There is no justification for this cowardly attempt and the excuse is pathetic. Phoning in a warning does not justify the intent.
I don’t know much about explosives but I am very certain they cannot tell time and once detonated a bomb makes no distinction between intended target and innocent bystander. A smaller bomb, no less dangerous, abandoned in a public area, is again a complete disregard for the ordinary people.
A fire bomb targeting a golf shop, and somehow the bomber manages to set himself on fire. I actually felt sorry for him and if he is still knocking about I hope he reconsiders his role as a bomber.
The numerous other minor attacks and the rare rattle at the cops seems to be ineffective as the ardour of the original claim of continuation now sounds like attempting to start a war. Either way is doomed to failure.
I mention the attempted bombings as one commenter on this blog informed us that the bomb was or is the preferred method of ONH. Which is a strange and self-defeating, militarily limiting their ability to engage the “enemy” which brings to mind the old Provo line of they only have to get lucky once.
I will translate that line in post-conflict times – ‘militant dissidents only have to get unlucky once.’
The odds are stacked in their favour as the recklessness they have displayed in attempted bombings of highly populated areas suggests that sooner or later they will succeed.
The problem being is that it will be a false sense of success. And when this present military campaign kills civilians the public outrage will not just be a flood, it will be a tsunami that will come crashing down on militants as the vast majority of the public will demand that the security forces bring to them the war they fail to bring to the security forces.
Militant republicanism is setting itself up for another sound defeat. The problem is the vast majority of the people don’t see an armed struggle. The older generations don’t wish to be dragged back into paramilitary rule. The younger generations don’t fully understand the reality of the recent past that brought us to the brink of civil war.
The sense of failure looms largely overhead as the conditions for armed struggle are not there.
Is it possible the loyalists will engage in another bout of sectarian war? Yes, but it is highly unlikely so hoping for that is about as wishful as hoping to see the BA back on the streets? Without any real physical threat to the nationalist community the only real threat comes from militant republicanism.
The present intermittent conflict is losing as the security forces are waging a counter psychological battle unlike the RUC who enjoyed using brute force. The British military presence is lethal as it is largely invisible, highly sophisticated and using modern technology which begs the very serious question can the militants fight an army they cannot see?
The psychological tactic has proven very effective. The pressure on militants is forcing them to react in a reckless fashion.
Their repeated failures can only be attributed to being mentally worn down. They are confined in a military box and to add insult to their injury the lid on the box is former comrades and SF along with the large portion of nationalist/republican supporters.
Logistically it is fighting a lost cause but all is not lost. Militant republicans have proven a point. They did not surrender and can be proud of their stance. To continue the unwinnable battle will only rob them of that token victory.
There has been some very positive critique coming from former volunteers who sacrificed much in a selfless manner these people could very easily have stayed in the SF camp and reaped the benefits that would have come with that choice. Once again their actions are selfless offering some very solid sound advice on behalf of the greater good not only to the nationalist community but the entire country. Calling for an end to the violence is not a sign of weakness but a much needed positive message of strength. The old war is lost.
It is time for anti-treaty republicans to reflect and rethink. The way forward is to engage in the political arena. It is there that they can prove their worth and give a voice to the voiceless.
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Tain Bo, a very though provoking piece (as have all the recent pieces been on this theme).Its broadly self consistent, but some clarifications if you would. I think using proxy delivery of bombs carries such downside risk as to preclude their use, however their motives/targets have only been supposed as economic. But how else will you monitor new police equipment or lock down methods unless you carry out reconnaissance on them? Additionally, you said “Without any real physical threat to the nationalist community “ but added “The British military presence is lethal as it is largely invisible” surely this is the crux of the issue? Nationalist don’t write their laws, and they don’t have access to the intelligence that lethal Army action is predicated on. Is it not more brutally honest to say, “as long as we don’t provoke the British, they won’t legislate us out of existence”? I have commented before that any purely social agitation is doomed to fail also (Kitson actually said this groups ‘carry the seeds of their own destruction’, because the Government can yield some minor points and split the agitating groups), so in that light is not a continued struggle, in the face of apparently insurmountable odds (as it has always faced, and faced down), the least bad option?
ReplyDeleteRandom negative comments about 'Conflict Resolution Services', betray a clear ignorance on the writers behalf and frankly border on hysteria.
ReplyDeleteIt is his second out of the blue attack on CRS within 24 hours. If he has an unresolved issue with them why doesnt he get it off his chest or even call in for a chat?
I was the main case worker there until i left to finish my education in September, still i would be happy to liaise between him and CRS in confidence if he so wishes.
The writers subsequent mentioning of (only one) armed organisation also betrays a specific personal based dislike of that particular school of republicanism.
Noticeably there is no mention of other groupings, for example the West Belfast counter gangs famous for extorting the families of local drug pushers and whose activities have been on several occasions been exposed to CRS.
I hope to get around to the other issues in the article later, given that they are unrelated to the writers opportunistic and dishonest attack on Conflict Resolution Services, they would require a separate response.
Tain Bo-
ReplyDeleteI think you were more kind to those disso armed groups than most but perhaps it allows your comments to carry more weight-
I agree with you that each group should / will go the political route-but one example of this is in today's Irish news-( page 12 )-Independent Republican councillor Davy Hyland criticised Sinn Fein because six of their councillors have resigned their seats to co-opt new members into those seats in Newry and mourne council so they can gain a bit of experience and get a bit of a profile before this mays local elections-Davy was opposed to this because he said it was not what co-option was originally designed for-this is despite the fact that it just took one single councillor to vote no and the co-options could not have took place-which meant that Davy sat with his mouth open and allowed what he is now complaining against to happen-the Irish news were also unaware of this rule which begs the question on why they are reporting on things which they also have no clue about-I hope more stand this year but if people vote disso they will get blunder after blunder-who wants that-
Táin Bó
ReplyDeleteFirstly I wish to acknowledge your contributions to the treads I have followed on the Quill; always well articulated and easily read, often reflecting a measured response.
However on this occasion I find myself in disagreement with your analysis.
Whilst at the same time acknowledging our rights, and the rights of all contributors to differ and disagree on analysis.
To say that there has been wide debate following the 'News Letter' articles is suspect.
A number of opinions were sought form a number of former 'Blanket Men' and some, maybe all, of the views solicited were published by the paper and re-carried here.
That eight, nine, ten or whatever number of individuals commented here, hardly constitutes a 'wide debate'.
In general, opinions in both the paper and the exchanges on the Quill could hardly be described as robust; Anthony's reference to the campaign as 'madness' was the only comment, at least it seems to me, that reflected any great conviction. Cahal B Daly type comments about futility sound hollow , even futile to me, given their repetitiveness and lack of impact on PFR over forty years.
That a softly, softly approach neither impressed nor fooled you Táin is hardly surprising because that tends to be your preferred approach too. That you criticise a contributor for standing on both sides of the road whilst simultaneously s/he sits in the middle suggests that the complexity of our situation is trying to break into your consciousness but hasn't just yet done so.
If only it were as simple as where to position ourselves on the road!
Schrödinger's cat is neither dead nor alive. Violence is both at one and the same time unavoidable and unjustifiable.
Keep smelling the roses Táin but keep in mind the grass only appears green (oh, all right some aren't sure if it's red or green).
'The way forward is to engage in the political arena'-if you mean electoral politics this is a dead end route,only mass action will deliver real grassroots selfdetermination and a move from the capitalist economy to the socialist one-the armed struggle by a vanguard of militants has failed time and time again,these people should get involved in their communities and help spread radical ideas transform ireland and further afield!
ReplyDeleteDaithiD,
ReplyDeleteI believe the use of bomb by proxy is counterproductive the same method regardless of it being in the past or present uses a person to deliver the bomb and eliminates the risk to the ASU.
It is not the intended target that is in question it is the act of forcing an innocent uninvolved person to finish their job at no risk to the ASU but placing great risk on the unfortunate person forced to deliver.
How can it be viewed as taking military action on behalf of the people when they force one of the people to be the unfortunate delivery person?
On the issue of intended targets today is not going to be viewed as it was during the conflict. For the greater part people will view it as attack on them and not on British commerce.
That method is also counterproductive the true effects we haven’t felt yet but as I said the odds are in the bombers favour and sooner are later they will indeed kill civilians and when or if that happens are we as anti GFA republicans prepared for the backlash and will militant republicanism grow from the backlash in strength or recede and wait until the dust clears before striking again.
I use the term invisible army as that is what the British Intelligence has implemented to combat the remaining militant nationalists.
They learned the hard way during the conflict and today they have no real physical presence deliberately frustrating the militants as they can’t attack what they cannot see.
Either way they will churn out more repressive legislation but that doesn’t mean nationalists and republicans should willingly fall into the trap nor does it mean we should bend at the knee.
The Brits will be and are happy to accommodate militant republicanism they can’t prevent all attacks but they are satisfied for now with their containment policy.
Although the ongoing debate is viewed by some as attacking republicanism and its right to armed struggle it is more of a critique on the necessity of armed action in a time where conditions say otherwise.
The Brits expect a fight from anti GFA republicans and they know and understand how to deal with one.
What they don’t expect is passive resistance at the moment anti-GFA republicanism is to scattered and riddle with non agreement we are in fact our own worst enemy.
I would think we need to unite ourselves under one banner and with the collective intelligence under that banner forge out workable solutions to build a unified political force one that can chip away at the status quo and not ourselves.
Ciaran Cunningham,
ReplyDeleteI don’t believe a few words critical of community law mounts to an attack bordering on hysteria.
I am opposed to any form of street justice regardless if it is within a republican or loyalist area.
I am not an advocate for the hoods or any anti-social-element my critique of community law is simple it is ineffective and counterproductive.
How can we claim the Brits are harassing republicans when republicans are doing the same to our own people?
Again hardly an attack more of a personal view and observation one which you or anybody holds the same entitlement of reply either defending or agreeing with the practice I just believe community law is based in mob mentality.
You describe them almost gleefully as “potential victims” the reality of that being resolution is a choice either the potential victims agree to the terms or face the consequences which doesn’t necessarily ring of justice or even fairness.
has anyone heard of the new dissident dissident group the f.o.v.i.r.a. i'm thinking of joining - it stands for fuck off various ira's. just say fuck off to extortionists and proxy bombers posing as republicans. my debatin days with these goons is over.'we pray that no one who seves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity or rapine'. now fuck off.
ReplyDeleteHenry JoY,
ReplyDeleteA fair and respectful critique and yes my personal preference is to be fair and try to not inject agitation into any debate.
The cat in this particular box is neither dead nor alive and that pretty much sums up the state of anti-treaty-republicanism.
The question being do we wish to determine the welfare of the cat or just keep on assuming it is neither?
My opinion was not solicited from the media or from any other source or individual. My opinion was shaped by the ongoing debate on the web and beyond the web.
I agree my softy, softy approach is usually present in my comments however if I was convinced there was a military way forward and believed that present armed struggle was worth supporting then my language would change from largely passive to the required aggressiveness needed to enhance my view.
I am not against armed struggle but I don’t see the present need for physical force. To dispute its usefulness is not a sign of weakness but a much needed look at what it can realistically achieve.
My being critical of another is simply based in my own observations either pick a side and defend it if you agree with armed struggle don’t cancel it out with contradictive language...
“I understand the need for armed struggle but I am not an advocate? “
If one understands the need for armed struggle but does not advocate it then exactly what is one saying as the former cancels the latter in my opinion.
I am by no means the sharpest tool in the shed but I am under no illusion I remain opposed to British rule.
I have little interest in the hue of grass I am subject to British rule that doesn’t mean I accept being an enforced British subject.
Armed force has resulted in defeat after defeat throughout our history what can the present round bring in realistic terms?
Cormac Francis Caulfield,
ReplyDeleteI suggest moving into politics at every level the Brits will remain happy with fighting the anti treaty republicans and in that fight we lose political minds to their Jails and worse to the grave.
We should promote unity amongst the divisions within anti-treaty- republicanism then through a unified strength tackle the British occupation with our minds.
It might be the very long road but it is worth challenging the Status Quo from within as anti-treaty-republicanism is being pushed further into the margin.
and michael henry id rather blunder after blunder than lie after lie, blunders are honest mistakes, lies are lies
ReplyDeleteTain bo.
ReplyDeleteBut you didnt just offer a 'few critical words', you called CRS a 'street court', on the Tony O'Hara thread you called it a 'kneecapping court', you also suggested the service was funded by the Brits to gather intelligence, and now you claim i 'speak with glee' at the potentiality of a punishment attack.
Again, you are speaking HYSTERICAL NONSENSE worthy of a Sunday World journalist.
Do anti-social criminals turn up at CRS? Yes.
Are accusations of anti-community behaviour put to them? Somtimes, yes. More often they are confronted by aggrieved fellow residents than by anybody else. (would you deny victims that right?) Sometimes people get their stolen TV back, sometimes they dont.
Are people then taken off to be harmed?? Never, not once.
So far i have read two accounts which differ, one was in the Sunday World and the other was yours.
As for Brit funding???? i have worked in the community sector as a benefits advisor & advocate since my release from Maghaberry 2006, i trained in Restoritive Practices in 2010. I have never seen such a poorly funded initiative as i have in CRS. Again the Sunday World say otherwise, but you will have to decide who you want to believe.
Ciaran Cunningham,
ReplyDeleteObviously my hysterical ranting is causing your comprehension to malfunction.
Firstly, why would the hysterical ranting merit any conversation unless you give it more importance than hysterics?
If Jimmy Ribshite has his telly nicked then he is the victim of a crime and should let the cops deal with it and earn their penny chasing down hoods which in turn would mean less time to harass republicans and activists.
But, if Jimmy Ribshite nicks a telly then he in your words is a “potential victim” your language is not exactly suiting your purpose.
Better worded and less sinister sounding would be if the accused thief is afforded the chance to meet with the accuser and have said property returned through talk there would seem little problem with that.
I just don’t see the need for a “3rd” party to police the community.
You add do “anti-social criminals” turn up at CRS which sounds like by the language these people who show up are already convicted again if the accused show up would sound better but your prejudice is ripe.
You are entitled to hold a view that such places are necessary I with an equal right dispute the need for community justice which does have some very servere consequences no matter how pretty a picture you try and paint.
I said I am sure British intelligence would be happy to have the British government finance such places.
British intelligence is much like the Germans or Nazis during the Second World War they love nothing better than collecting every insignificant piece of information and are ingenious at taking a small amount of information and compiling it into a large dossier.
Whether it is minute or significant and I am sure this nonsense of “potential victims” can be turned on its arse as the Brits are extremely talented at picking out people and offering them a more lucrative incentive to pass on information so in my hysterical opinion there is a very detrimental downside to street court.
Again out of curiosity what qualifications does one need to become a judge?
@Tain bo-im not suggesting that we go back to armed struggle but just that we realise that voting does not changenthings,as emma goldman said 'if voting changed anything it would be made illegal',what i am suggesting is building direct democratic movements to challenge the hegemony of the capitalist class and its state and replace it with a system of workers councils and neighbourhood assemblies so we can have real democracy not the sham of a bourgeoise democratic republic which is a tool of the rich and powerfull,check out the zapatistas if you havnt heard of them!
ReplyDeletea funny handshake helps
ReplyDeleteTain Bo,
ReplyDeleteAnother well written and informative piece.
You made quite a few valid points, especially in relation to CRS.
On those points however, I would like to ask would you suggest an alternative to this community initiative ?
I personally believe Conflict Resolution provides a very necessary service. If they weren't there, where would people who find themselves in dire straits actually go?
People who for one reason or another require intervention between themselves and the 'armed groups'.
Who else can realistically intervene on people's behalf?
CRJ cop a tidy sum out of the 'Justice' budget and they are toothless tigers in this area.
I know people linked to Sinn Fein who have opted for CRS over CRJ so where do we go from there?
Cormac Francis Caulfield,
ReplyDeleteI am not opposed to armed struggle the present round is not focusing on the road ahead but sitting in the past.
It is Northern Ireland which will always have room for war but war under the right circumstances from a position of strength and that is something lacking now.
What is going on now we haven’t made much in the way of a noticeable structure if this were a building site we can’t agree on laying the foundations as we are using the wrong tools and materials to begin working on what is ahead?
I am not saying entering the political arena will be simple but it is there anti treaty republicans can build on a future from street level to any height it can be taken.
All the parties spout off and condemn anti treaty republicans buy condemning armed activity and behind closed doors they don’t really care as they too are happy to see the militants focus on fighting the Brits leaving the law on the hill pretty much unchallenged.
Striving for political strength through unity in my opinion is not unreasonable as I commented elsewhere on this blog if we fail to adapt then we shall be pushed out of the picture completely.
The Brits have succeeded in making the 6 counties as normal looking as possible and I doubt they will be forced into making it into the open prison it was pre-conflict.
Nuala,
ReplyDeleteYou make a better case for these places one I will attempt a reasonable answer to tomorrow.
Don’t get confused it is just my personal opinion against community courts that doesn’t mean they should not exist.
Much like on the Alec thread community law is susceptible to prejudice and can be ruled by mob mentality or a sense of revenge justice.
@tain bo-so hypothetically if u could win youd go for it?,personally i dont see any future for armed struggle at all,it must be opposed by all right minded people!nationalism has no future in irish or world politics anymore,we live in a globalised world and the sooner we all learn this the better.how can you justify forcing a million protestants into a state they dont want to be part of{and if they do want tobe part of it then they can vote to be},this is simply doing to the unionists what the british did to the irish-thats why i propose a federalist approach based on direct democracy to the situation,allowing each area to federate where it wanted while at the same time federating together on an economic basis,this will give each tradition the security it wants and needs,nationalisms aim is to force people into a state they do not wish to be part of,this is reprehensible,Anarchism for me is the answer for virtually all national questions around the world..
ReplyDeletetain bo-i agree with what you say on needing to adapt-republicans need to grow and expand their politics in order to achieve any meaningful change-not just a change in the names of our masters!
ReplyDeleteMickey,
ReplyDelete“I think you were more kind to those disso armed groups than most but perhaps it allows your comments to carry more weight-“
My commentary is weightless my intention was to keep the debate going and my opinion is purely mine. What readers make of it is a matter of their own personal translation and if it merits criticism or praise that is where the only weight matters.
I believe your translation is through the backdoor providing you a platform to attack the dissenter community and indirectly infer that I somehow am pushing the SF agenda.
To be honest the universe is too small for me to put sufficient distance between my political views and the party you “represent.”
Speaking of honesty the criticism of my opinion have been exactly that “honest” and “fair” and I am sure others would view it and decide it would read better on the funny pages.
Although my words are critical of armed resistance that does not remove the fact that I hold those who refuse to bend at the knee in high regard nor does it mean I accept British rule like those in SF who went beyond bending at the knee to kneeling down and accepting defeat disguised as a victory for the Irish people.
If the opportunity arose and I get the chance to pen an article on SF I can assure you it would be very critical of the methods they employed to get to where they sit now with their no disguising self-serving agenda which is only applicable to the people that follow them.
Although my words are critical of armed struggle make no mistake I would rather sit in the division of dissenter than in the camp of those who can’t do enough to keep the 6 counties British more British now than ever before.
Nice try Mickey but I think Dixie has you pegged as we watch you hoisting yourself up on your own rope could this lead to “political suicide?”
Cormac Francis Caulfield,
ReplyDelete"The Brits have succeeded in making the 6 counties as normal looking as possible and I doubt they will be forced into making it into the open prison it was pre-conflict."
That should read pre-ceasefire.
Ciaran Cunningham,
ReplyDelete“The writers subsequent mentioning of (only one) armed organisation also betrays a specific personal based dislike of that particular school of republicanism.”
The writer’s mentioning of one specific group was based on a comment made here by a contributor that ONH prefer using the bomb.
The message applies to “armed struggle” so I would assume by simple reasoning it would encompass all factions engaging in said action.
I don’t find it personal or prejudicial it is just merely an individual critique and with respect to the armed factions and those that follow them my critique does not in any way detract from their right to engage the British as they see fit.
My own personal view on the practicality of armed resistance is open to criticism and if need be ridicule if found by any to be so unreasonable that would warrant it.
The only real specific bias I hold on any school of republicanism would be the distain I feel for SF
Nuala,
ReplyDeleteAs I stated I am opposed to community law which is not a new position for me as I did not agree with it during the conflict.
I could understand its purpose but didn’t find it agreeable as was it worth it for a volunteer to spend 5 or more years in jail for kneecapping a hood?
Back then it became a case of the hoods almost mocking their punishers as in a few areas kneecapping became almost by appointment only.
The hood would accept their punishment with a strange mentality that it was less severe than being locked away for 3 or more years.
For most once healed they were right back at it and although the provos could afford to lose some volunteers to jail they like the peelers could not eradicate the anti-social problems.
The other downside being that a hood once punished now would be more susceptible to being employed by Brit intelligence as a low level gatherer of information which I am sure they recruited more than a few.
I do know of one punishment shooting for a minor infraction that went wrong and left the victim dependent on crutches for the rest of his life.
Today’s rules seem to be a continuation of old Provo law. I am sure the centers are helpful if indeed they are what they claim “conflict resolution” the language used in describing people as “potential victims” or “do anti social criminals turn up.” This is language that promotes problems and perhaps can be attributed to the commenter and not the nature of the center as a whole.
I dislike the term potential victim as it implies guilt before the fact and the word victim is disturbing as implies prejudice.
Do the anti social criminals show up out of respect or fear do they have a choice?
The label is already affixed prior to any hearing which means they are already guilty of being anti social criminals that discrimination tips the scale of justice in favour of the adjudicators.
The claim that they get a chance to hammer it out with representatives’ of armed groups only heightens the fear factor.
I would assume if the accused show up then he or she would be very willing to accept the conditions set before them as I don’t believe they are afforded the luxury of legal advice.
It would be safe to assume that cases are resolved if the accused accepts responsibility and the terms and conditions put forward as a punishment.
...
However I would be concerned about some naive youngster showing up being accused of something and under duress admitting guilt just to satisfy the inquisitors even if he knows he did not commit the offence he was accused off.
ReplyDeleteThis scenario is based in fact that many republicans were under duress confessed to actions they did not commit so is there a failsafe mechanism embedded in these community courts ensuring this does not happen?
If we put aside the minor cases and focus on the very serious crimes some may be accused of for example hijacking a car and threatening the owner with violence or even beating the owner or repeated domestic violence, rape habitual home burglary and any other very serious offence.
Are these centers capable of handling such cases as unlike the minor cases the offender or accused may get off with a warning or a slap on the wrist but for the serious crimes what would the punishment be? And is the punishment biased in crimes against the community and community law might be biased based on the grounds that the adjudicators are holding court for the greater good of the community.
Based in rumour I have heard of cases of a minor drug pusher being giving a certain punishment and threatened with expulsion from the community if he did not cease his activity.
I have also heard that a drug dealer was able to buy his way out and still engages in his trade of community pharmaceutical supplier.
I give the Provos credit for their brutal honesty when it came to the issue of dealing with the ant-social-elements.
Today’s centers are not as honest as the resolution of minor crimes seems fair but what of the habitual hardcore criminal are we to believe a case like that would be resolved without a severe punishment?
I am not saying there is no practical purpose for such places and if they do better the communities in any way more power to them.
I still remain opposed to community law much in the same matter I oppose British law where any of us that were unfortunate to stand in the dock did so as guilty under the eyes of the Brits unless proven innocent.
The British law mentality was based in blatant bias and prejudice even if one was remotely sympathetic to PIRA/INLA one was simply guilty.
Community law runs the risk of satisfying the community based on our own dislike of criminal elements but the sentence might not actually all the time fit the crime.
Keep in my mind it is just my personal objection to community courts and that is not to say they are not necessary as they exist so I would assume it is with good reason.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteI like most have been follwong these debates asking for all PFR to put down their arms and to engage in socio economic programs that will benefit their communities. It seems to me at least, either they aren't listening or are and aren't taking any heed. I'd also add that their are more than a few who believe it's their right to engage the British in any way they feel fit..Be it using proxy bombs, shhoting at the PSNI, throwing pipe bombs when theur are civilians about not connected in any struggle..
‘We will put drug dealers down a hole’
A spokesman for the group said they have already tried to kill one dealer in West Belfast and that they have no qualms about removing dealers from the streets, according to the wishes, they say, of the local community.
He also refuted claims that the IV is involved in extorting money from families of those caught up in drugs, saying a drug addict is using the name of various armed groups to intimidate people into paying out. While the IV group has only sprung to prominence in recent months, the spokesman said it was established over a decade ago with the goal of securing a “32 county socialist republic”.
The spokesman told us they are determined to remove the scourge of drugs. He said young, small-time dealers would be helped, but for the major drug dealers kneecapping is not enough.
“We got together in 2002 and re-emerged two years ago after a period of finding out who is genuine and who isn’t,” he said. “For the past two years we have been rearming and re-strengthening and are preparing to deal with those involved in drugs.
Cormac, I had never heard of horizontalism or the Zapatistas and for that I thank you, however I have grave reservations with such ideology for they always seem to ignore a large part of human nature.
ReplyDeletefor such ideas to work you have to have 100 per cent faith in humanity and that's just not the case is it? There are always those who will line their own pocket as there are always those who believe status quo propaganda and the truth be told they are not in a minority.
As far as federalism goes these ideas sound good in the pages of philosophers books but in my opinion they are not practical. When you say you cant force unionist into a state they want no part of that might be true, but republicans will never give up our dream of a reunified homeland too much has been lost in this pursuit so I can see how your ideas as good as they may be will get off the ground.
David Higgins-there are many examples of where this approach has worked{abeit only for short periods of time until it was crushed by overwhelming forces-this is why our movement must be internationalist in scope},i give a few examples here:http://anarchism.pageabode.com/andrewnflood/zapatistas-anarchism-direct-democracy
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory,in this sort of world there would be no way people could expolit or 'line their own pockets'-everyone is checked by thecommunity,i recognise we are a long way off this but we must build and organise for it,for real democracy as capitalist democracy is a sham,the markets and big corporations dictate everything,' republicans will never give up our dream of a reunified homeland',i support your desire for self determination ,but it must be REAL self determination for everyone,including the unionist community,otherwise yous cant claim to be for freedom and justice,forcing protestants into a state is undemocratic and unjust-only federalism is the answer to this problem!
cormac, we already live in undemocratic state the six county state went against the wishes of the Irish people, but we could go back and forward with this all day. Your ideas intrigue me and it is something i will research more into but the cynic in me understands how indoctrinated in our beliefs, no matter how flawed, the working classes are and ideas as radical as yours ,i dont see where they would get ground support. Although certainly something to think about.
ReplyDelete@david higgins-i respect that you live in an undemocratic state an this needs resolving,its my belief however thats there only one way to do it-anarchism,please do have a look into it,even just read the links i posted and keep an open mind!
ReplyDeletebtw i believe these ideas resonate with alot of people,from the zapatistas to the occupy movements the have all being anarchist inspired-so were on the up,with the economic crisis more and more people ar gunna look for alternatives and as leninism has failed to deliver-libertarian socialism{anarchism} will be the next choice,if not explicitly then implicitly!
ReplyDeleteTain Bo,
ReplyDeleteI take your point in relation to community justice and it is the justice part that is the most significant for me.
Although people disagree with the need for these community based organisations, they fill a void and I have never heard anyone offering a feasible alternative?
If they help people and I know they do. Why should they not exist?
Cormac, I read your links, and found horizontalism of a sort (sleep).
ReplyDeleteCormac Francis Caulfield,
ReplyDeleteThere is no justification the condition pre 69 lead up to the defensive struggle which became the offensive.
It is not just a case of forcing the large protestant community but also forcing many of the nationalist community who are content to stay in the north.
No, if there was a need to defend against British military loyalist backed attack on nationalist then I could agree with a defensive struggle.
The problem with that is we all lose again as there is no defeating the British military and the ordinary people from both communities should never have to face what we are trying to leave in the past again.
The older generation of the armed struggle camp is refusing to let the old war go and trying to start another round which is only going to embed the British position deeper in the North’s psyche.
It is going against the vast majority of the people who rightly have had enough of the old war and looking to live their lives in as normal a manner then can
The old approach is a political dinosaur and without adaption to the times we shall be left looking at the old bones and nothing else.
Frankie,
ReplyDeleteI have heard different stories on drug dealers and links with paramilitaries and other stories of some people getting guff for smoking weed.
It would seem more plausible that paramilitaries would see drug dealers as a ready source of cash after all if extorted drug dealers can hardly go to the law.
Like anything else we might get the impression they are not listening but they are and can only view the ongoing debate against armed struggle as losing support.
And those that speak out against the losing battle or lost cause will be branded as traitors and the usually bunk that follows any respectful criticism.
Waging war on drug dealers sounds nefarious are they moving in on the drug trade and cutting out the middle man.
The American government with all its might and resources barely makes a dent in the drug trade whether we like it or not there is demand for their supply killing one drug dealer only opens the door for another that cycle is endless.
Nuala,
ReplyDeleteI am not opposed to them if they do help as I said I found the language used to describe one service sinister and openly biased.
The greater problem in my view is community law runs the risk of becoming a form of community oppression.
Where the most dangerous of the anti-social-elements are going to receive the more brutal punishments from kneecapping to death or if shown leniency expulsion from their community and country my problem being that they have rights and even though I loathe and despise them I do not see the punishment fitting the crime.
The hood culture will always be present there is no alternative that I can see and I am sure they are helpful but overall not a deterrent for anti-social-hoods.
This will always be a plague in socio-economically deprived areas the real struggle is to fight for a fair share of the political-cash to improve the living conditions.
It won’t stop hoods completely but it would improve the welfare of entire communities.
Our own unique conflict give rise to the war on anti-social-elements even if we were sitting in a united Ireland right now we would likely be more economically starved and still face the same culture of hoods.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. However I believe these centres often act in the best interest of the victim and the perpetrator.
The hood culture has been in operation for thirty years and nothing seems to act as a deterrent.
The mentality to torture their own community is as powerful now as it was midway through the war.
People need a means of redress however a place
where they can talk and know that there is the capability for a solution.
This initiative provides an intermediary service which is as valuable now as it ever was.
If the CRS was gone tomorrow, I for one would feel a lot less comfortable.
Nuala,
ReplyDeleteHonestly, more power to anything that betters the communities in anyway a problem with the hood culture is it robs more than the people.
They are as much a victim of British society as those that are tortured by them.
Any discourse that redirects the misguided is always helpful.
The greater problem being the influences that run many of these youngsters are usually well put together gangs where the leaders force the youngsters to do their dirty work.
Identifying and isolating the hierarchy would solve part of the problem.
As I said you make a far more reasonable argument for these initiatives with the absent of strong language that reads to the ordinary person of street justice.
I just found “potential victims” disturbing as it reads of guilt before the fact.
Tain I only just read your article, missed it for some reason. Firstly I'd like to say fair play for voicing your position, much of which I agree on in terms of the strategic capabilities of armed struggle in the current environment. The reality is the conditions for an armed approach are simply not there which explains the inability to mount anything even resembling a sustained campaign. There are a few things I'd question such as the idea that bombing was ever a method that received support of a broad section of nationalism but at this stage I've missed the debate, perhaps we can deal with it elsewhere. But just in terms of Cormack's remark about forcing a million Protestants into a United Ireland such analysis fails to consider the reality that a million Catholics are being forced to live in the occupied six-county state. There's no getting around that. I'm site this will go on elsewhere so get ye again
ReplyDeleteSean,
ReplyDeleteoverlooking something is easily done whether it is an article or comment.
I don’t think my point of bombing was its acceptance though I believe in the aftermath of Bloody/Black Friday in 1972 were 26 bombs exploded in the space of a couple of hours with devastating consequences embedded the use of the bomb on commercial targets into the psyche of the conflict.
I was making the point that bombing the city would lead to a civil backlash as the people of 2014 would have much to say unlike the people during the conflict who couldn’t speak out against the Paramilitaries.
Bombing a building in the city or attempting to bomb reads more like a cry for acknowledgement rather than any genuine reasoning of commercial targeting.
My other problem is bombing by proxy which is a ridiculous method and a contradiction of being for the people when one of the people is forced to deliver a bomb. The forced driver’s life is negated and the only importance is given to the successful delivery of the intended target.
Which in turn cancels out any regard for those in the intended target or the vicinity which is not to say regard for civilians would be greater if the bombers delivered the device themselves?
I don’t think the thought of forcing 1.5 million Protestants into a united Ireland is overlooking the fact that we are forced to live in the occupied north.
One does not automatic cancel the other out and the debate faded out so there was no real discussion beyond the few lines traded.
i agree that it is an injustice that part of the community feels it does not wish to be part of the uk,hence,like i said previously the only fair and just conlusion to this is an international federation based on direct democracy,its being tried before withsome success and if we organise for it today theres a chance we'll get it,unlike a united ireland which has no chance of being achieved!btw this can only be achieved by the mass mobilisation of the working class community..peacefully of course!
ReplyDeleteWhat about Eire Nua lads, would you not consider this the most realistic option given that it has been comprehensively laid out and takes account of the various factors we've mentioned?
ReplyDeletenah i wouldnt personally go for Eire Nua,its nationalistic instead of internationalist,it maintains the centralised state-it therefore negates true workers selfmanaged socialism,self government and the full sovereignty of the people..its not the worst but if socialism is your aim(which if your for true freedom and democracy i assume you are)its not the way to go,anyway we would be immediately embargoed if it was not international!
ReplyDeleteEire Nua and it's companion Saol Nua are not out-and-out socialist documents and veer more towards the cooperative model in tandem with participatory democracy. It remains the most advanced document on the table in my opinion. Is there a policy or manifesto you can point me towards to get a better gist of the practicalities and real-world applications of the politics you're talking about?
ReplyDeletesean bres im with u 100%. the people who shafted eire nua were the ones spouting marxist internationalist crap and also lets not forget these self same people regarded dail uladh as a sop to unionism. these former leftie revolutionaries went for stormont in the end!!!!!!!! these former socialist internationalists all now have their snouts in the trough. It is not nationalistic it is REPUBLICAN which is what the movement is supposed to be. the shafting of eire nua by the you know who faction was the beginning of the end as far as i can see. What happened to christin ni elias, a genuine and committed republican who did her best to promote this republican programme, is scary to say the least. Eire Nua was and is a threat to the powerful elites who control almost everything now. up the republic. A real republic terrifies the elites because they know what it means for them (guillotine anybody). That is why it was targetted and shafted so early. fair play to o bradaigh o conail and others. They knew exactly what was going on when Eire Nua was shafted. not long after we had the 'gerry'mandered vote at 86 ard fheis that brought an end to republicanism in sf. im an independent republican so until some other group of genuine republicans come up with a more simple and profound programme i support it all the way. eire nua is a challenge to the people as much as it is an affront to all the monarchies aristocracies corporations and the banksters who fear 'we the people'. lets not forget mcguinness parting shot at that 'gerry'mandered ard fheis - "we will lead you to the republic". wheres he atnow.
ReplyDeleteCormac, Sean,
ReplyDeleteAs we head into 2014 there are many good ideas the problem is finding middle-ground something we all can agree upon.
Two major things lacking is a strong political voice and the unity to promote a strong voice.
I would think the Brits and the Status Quo parties are content to see and let us squabble over which road is best.
In that sense we are doing ourselves no favour.
I'm with grouch here, let's see realistic proposals for what a reunified Ireland will look like and how it will account for the historical divisions in our country - no matter how they were created. Eire Nua is the only thing on the table as far as I can see that has done this but I support it not only because there is nothing better on offer but because it systematically addresses ALL of the causes of conflict and offers practical solutions. If there were an ideal solution for me this would be it but the best thing is it's not wishful, fanciful thinking derived from theory but readily achievable. It is one of the most progressive documents you'll see. I don't go for this Marxist-Leninist or anarchist theory sections of the left propound - for the most part it's a theoretical exercise, a pipe-dream, no matter how worthy the sentiments they might express. Eire Nua is the most realistic proposal to deal with the situation we currently find ourselves in and proposes a fair shake of the bag for ALL the people - just as the Proclamation declared it should be. I really think it's something all sections of republicanism could unite behind - especially given that much of the conversation the past while has centred on such a need for unity. This is a worthwhile starting point
ReplyDeletethe best examples i could give you would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution and this http://anarchism.pageabode.com/andrewnflood/zapatistas-anarchism-direct-democracy -you criticise 'marxist internationalism'(im not a marxist btw)-but we cannot be parochial in our outlook nd anyway the US and britain will embargo or invade if its just ireland,what i am in favour is a universal self managed republic,im not a nationalist and no republican should be nationalists!
ReplyDeleteEire Nua sets Ireland in the international context and is not a nationalist document. If you are in favour of a universal self-managed republic then you could do no worse than Eire Nua - at least as a step towards what you ultimately want to achieve. No-one's suggesting it is the complete document, it's open to debate and discussion of course and in fact its authors welcome constructive criticism and contributions that might assist in modifying it, but it remains the most comprehensive of its kind on the table and offers a workable alternative to the status quo capable of addressing the various criticisms we might have of that status quo. Have you ever read it - and its sister document 'Saol Nua'? They are magnificent contributions to republican discourse often not given due consideration because of misconceptions that unfortunately exist of the party most associated with them. In case you haven't I'll link them and will have a look at the stuff you linked yourself
ReplyDeletehttp://rsfnational.wordpress.com/miscellaneous/rsf-policies/eire-nua-a-new-democracy/
http://rsfnational.wordpress.com/miscellaneous/rsf-policies/saol-nua-a-new-way-of-life/
"In many revolutionary situations it makes sense to hold back militant sections in case premature action results in the suppression of the movement" - now there'as an argument
ReplyDeleteBeing honest Cormac I don't see much if anything in all that to be considered as incompatible with where Eire Nua hopes to take us. I reiterate that it is a document realistic to the conditions that exist in Ireland today that can achieve all the types of things you refer to. I honestly see it as the type of progressive policy that can unite all sections of republicanism. No?
ReplyDeletecormac, i thought they invaded hundreds of years ago! sean bres - i think i said this before on TPQ - The net is great because we can see things that were hidden from us during the years of censorship - in this case 86 ard fheis. i dont want to sound corny but i nearly cried the last time i watched O'Bradaigh speak at that ard fheis and i nearly put me fist thru the laptop when i watched mcguinness speech after that. these two ten minute videos on youtube says everything about where we went wrong. Ruairi was such a GENUINE person, his republicanism came from the heart and he spoke from the heart. listen to everything he says and analyse it in light of everything that has happened. Then listen to his nibs and do same. the bare faced lying is disturbing. he has a go at the former leadership for the truce - fair enuf. the only thing o bradaigh was talking about was withdrawal at that time in his defence. what makes me sick is that mcguinness had his own line to the brits for years as did his mate (who also had his own private think thanks, unknown squads and god knows what) and they most definitely werent talking about withdrawal. But its the first minute or so of o bradigh that says so much about the man and he only says one sentence - its the fake handshake and pat on the back from Adams. ruairis body language and facial expressions say so much. watch and you'll see what i mean. God be with ruairi, what an utter gentleman never mind his republicanism. i think what happened between the shafting of eire nua and the outcome of 'gerry'mandered ard fheis had a very bad affect on him, almost shattered him i feel. the likes of him and that generation of people we wont see again sadly. Is TPQ able to play these videos?
ReplyDeleteI've seen both videos before grouch, like yourself I was stunned by the accuracy of O'Bradaigh's foresight and by the deviousness of his opponents who time has shown to be complete lying bastards in everything they said. It's not the case that they later changed tact because as Dixie and others have identifed on here the dealings with the Brits were going on long before '86. I've said before on here that when history is written Ruairi will be remembered by republicans with fondness, those other bastards will be remembered for the devious, lying so-and-so's we all now know them to be.
ReplyDelete"I don't accept that the 'young turk's' are pushing forward with a revolution - I feel that it's really a counter-revolution, a question of ultimately halting, not immediately but in stages, what is going on and diverting the struggle down a totally constitutional path" - Ruair in 1986.
As I said his foresight was freakishly accurate. What I don't understand is why republicans don't return to the position pre-'86 and rebuild from there down the road we could have travelled. It's still possible which is why see Eire Nua and Saol Nua as a unifying policy which all the various strands can subscribe to and not just RSF
Sean,
ReplyDeleteYou make a good point about returning to pre-86 I remember the walkout and it was not really a shock as rumours were floating about prior to it that Adams and Co were heading in a different direction completely.
In hindsight it is simple to define the Armalite and ballot box as republicans were still in line with armed struggle at the same time the Adams camp were using it as a cover.
The split left the door wide open for them to maneuver and eventually sabotage the armed struggle and their coup complete taking the Armalite vote and stamping the SF victory on it.
Without the armed struggle I doubt SF would enjoy the bloc vote they receive in essence the English out maneuvered SF and in turn SF blindsided republicanism.
they did invade hundreds of years ago and i personnally think the northern state is as legitimite as any state in the world(that is no cenralised state is truly legitimate as it usurps the peoples soverengty,it was formed by violence,coercion with a built in majority for the ruling class-that is to say it was formed just like basically every other state in the world-im from monaghan and im ruled from dublin,brussels and by corporations just like yous are ruled by london,brussels ect.quit talking about this imaginary 'irish freedom' and start talking about very real economic freedom-my personal view is that you should accept the northern statelet until we have a chance of international social revolution then we can dissolve as many states as possible into a completely decentralised selfmanageed federation,my problem with eire nua is that altought it is progressive it doesnt go far enough,actually the state of vietnam started off im a similar vein and look where it went,i give you a quote from a respected anarchist-No government can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up.-Mikhail Bakunin
ReplyDeleteyouve made me day sean bres, another thing i came across on the Net recently was a quote from the late great defender of the Repulblic of Lakota - Russell Means. He's talking about the founding fathers of america who borrowed from the ancient lakota nation and the other five nations that formed the Iroqouis Confederacy in drafting their own constitution, Means calls it a near perfect document - "the constitution is indian law and that's why i love it". lakota abu
ReplyDeletecormac - "accept the northern statelet until we have a chance of international social revolution then we can dissolve as many states as possible into a completely decentralised selfmanageed federation", who are the 'we' u refer to twice. u talk of dissolving as many states as possible but the idea of dissolving the two cess pits on this island is too much. i'm a realistic republican and i listened to this in the 80's,it was very fanciful to me then as it is now, i know nothing about vietnam either. i believe in sovereignty over any ism but irish republicanism is my stepping stone to a healthy life for all. ideology is mental slavery.
ReplyDeletewhen i talk of we i mean working people,honestly u call yuourself a realistic republican(read nationalist) but to me this is a paradox-a small minority population can never oust a larger one-its just facts,however when material conditions are correct,if we have prepared the ground social revolution can sweep from country to country(the arab spring being the best example),with the support of working people,the vast majority of the population,active nationalism is only attractive to a small number of people,whereas socialism is in the benefit of all--i recognise anarchists have a long way to go but everything starts somewhere!republicanism is no stepping stone as the 26 counties shows,trust me the 26 counties is no workers utopia-infact living conditions are better overall in the 6counties in comparison to the 26 counties..
ReplyDeleteI agree with grouch yet again. Cormac in many of your contributions you talk about the need for direct democracy and the involvement of the people - what do you think Irish republicanism is about? At its most basic level it's about the Rights of Man. All the kind of thing you're talking about can be easily reconciled to the republican position expressed in the articles i linked in and I really think you need to read them full
ReplyDeletei did read them,you are wrong eire nua maintains representative democracy and the centralised state(it just breaks it up slightly),this is at odds with self-managed socialism which is completely decentralised--socialism infact grew out of traditional republicanism of the french revolution,republicans then recognised that republicanism did not go far enought as it didnt deliver true liberation and selfmanagement(this statement can be applied to irish republicanism),this is why they came up with libertarian socialism-a truly liberatory ideology,republicanism is a bourgeois ideology that maintains class rule,socialism one truly for the working people..
ReplyDeleteGrouch
ReplyDeleteThe history of Vietnam is interesting at the moment I am reading Hostage of Paradox by John Rixey Moore about the CIA clandestine war ran in Vietnam and South East Asia.
The other interesting thing is how it affected the early British Army approach in Northern Ireland.
The Anti war movement in America had a drastic effect on the US government.
The British government didn’t want the same thing to take off in the United Kingdom and were extremely careful how they managed the invasion of Operation Motorman.
It took a few years to gather the hard information they required to mount the operation and when satisfied they would meet little to no resistance the overkill of military was just that but they had learned lessons from American military mistakes in Vietnam and put then to good use both on the ground and through the media.
If the IRA had been well equipped I don’t believe they would have invaded but adapted a different approach to ending the no go areas.
cormac, i drive a taxi for my sins!!!!i would be better off on the dole and am considering it. ive worked on building sites factories printshops all my life (since 87). i was never one to hold down a job too long - i might have had 15 jobs in my life. my father was reared on a six acre farm in the west of ireland in the 30's - only child, single parent. that is not a typo by the way - six. he was very bright and won scholarships and ended up a lecturer. i'm only tellin u this to show you i have a good insight into what you might call - the working class, the bourgeoise, the ruling class etc etc. realistic republican (read nationalist)- ur losing me there. would you be offended if i said socialist anarchist (read fascist)? one great thing about the taxi though is ive learned so much about this country meeting people from all walks of life. My conclusion is you might as well put your faith in the few remaining leprechauns under the ground here for starting a revolution than what you might call the irish working class now. the 26 counties is not a republic. i live here too in a shoneen town.
ReplyDeletetain bo,
ReplyDeletescary those same cia people are based somewhere near the phoenix park now, i wonder what plans they and their friends underground in palace barracks have for this island. heard of that writer i think, can never finish a book though!
btw my point on vietman was thar it started off wit direct democratic practices(with more power than the community councils of eire nua would have)-but as it maintained a centalised government dictatorship ensued!
ReplyDeleteAs I said before it's not the bible, I'm sure there are parts that could be adapted to suit criticisms such as those you've mentioned. They are constructive and so they are welcome. The alternative you've offered though is vague, I'd like to see a thought-out document dealing with how Ireland would look under the type of arrangements you've described. If one exists link it in and I'll have a good look at it. My biggest criticism would be that in the round such proposals would unlikely attract the type of support required to make them reality given the current state of society and I definitely couldn't see how the Unionists would ever be convinced of its merits - and you've identified previously the need for their considerations to be part of any transformation. The reality is that Ireland is in no position to undergo the type of revolution you advocate and that's the long and the short of it. Eire Nua on the other-hand is a realistic alternative to the status quo that could easily be implemented and could satisfy the type of democratic and socialist currents you hark after - even if not to the extent you would like to see. But at the end of the day it'd be much preferable to the status quo, I'm sure you can concede at least that much. In terms of moving the situation forward in terms of republican unity surely we have to admit that it's a document more likely to meet with the broad approval required to advance some form of broad-front - which in the context of the discussion around armed struggle and the need to formulate an alternative to it is something we'll require. Eire Nua could offer us something of substance, serious substance, to rally around. I think it's worth looking at again by all republicans
ReplyDeletecormac, if u hopped into my taxi and we began talkin about politics and such likes i would like you straight away.here's the why. YOU CARE ABOUT IRELAND AND THE WORLD. ive met hundreds if not thousands of third level students over the last seven years taxiing and u mite as well be talkin to the wall. blogs are great but they lack the human touch. if we were chattin in my cab i would try to stop u having a bee in your bonnet about loaded words like nationalist and phrases like irish freedom. i believe in irish freedom because i still hav a bit of it. i spend as much time as possible in nature. when im there i forget about politics etc. you may laugh but i get a kick out of picking berries and nuts and herbs. my mate is a great man for catching fish. staying out in the wilds eating free food, the healthiest of food, and spending evenings around a fire with the people i love is what i love to do. its what our ancestors did, its what the lakota did. go tell the lakota republicanism is a bourgeois thing. im not havin a go at you, i really amnt. when i need a licence to pick the berries of the hawthorn tree and need a licence from the super state to have a baby i hope ul be backing me up. dont be gettin bogged down with lingo, nobody is one word or two, we are all together struggling against the same tyrants and they love it and indeed promote stuff that keeps us from gettin on. by the way i always had a gra for anarchy and i dont think you can argue that the gaels were far from it. beir bua cormac.
ReplyDeleteTain Bo- I am a keen reader of books on the Vietnam War and have just ordered "Hostage of Paradox" by John Rixey Moore. Thanks! I did a little research on it and it looks interesting. It escaped my radar, such things often do.
ReplyDeleteSimon,
ReplyDeleteit had been on my list for while as you say things go under the radar my own interest in Vietnam was from a slogan painted on a wall in Belfast… America get out of Vietnam. Something along that line where the news was usually consumed by what was happening locally.
I used to get a bit of stick about reading books beyond the confines of the conflict but looking back I am glad I kept on reading them.
I am not far into it yet so can offer no reasonable conclusion but it would be interesting to hear what you think about down the line.
Grouch,
ReplyDeleteI doubt the surface of the CIA world has been scratched as for the sneaky bastards in MI5 undoubtedly they direct a lot of the political direction or climate in our neck of the woods and obviously would have little bother crossing into the free state and winding things up there.
Odd how that worked out as we ended up with an MI5 center which states the Brits are in no hurry about leaving the north.
I read at a snail’s pace now as my eyesight is unlike wine it got worse with age.
Grouch,
ReplyDeleteI agree with your healthy approach and the human touch that computers can’t deliver.
There is a need to escape politics at the best of times and definitely a need to detach the computer gadget world we live in now and again.
It is the one place we attain freedom and the one place we kept the idea of freedom alive in our minds.
Simon,
ReplyDeletepicked up 4 in one day about the Vietnam War during the week so I guess they came from the same donor. 2 about snipers, one was a novel and another was a massive tome on the French defeat there. Got the lot for about 7 Euro
If you's haven't read it 'the last valley' is a brilliant book
ReplyDeleteTain Bo- I think the Vietnam War is fascinating. General Giap was some pup, he died last year. I have his excellent biography by Peter MacDonald and another, more up to date one by James A Warren. The MacDonald one is excellent. Although I read it 20 years ago it left it's mark. I have yet to read the other one.
ReplyDeleteAM- Is the French one about Dien Bien Phu called "The Last Valley" by Martin Windrow?
7 euro!!! Don't tell me these things!
Simon,
ReplyDeletethat's it. The others were called Dead Centre and something about 13 cents, then about not letting a soldier die. Will have the titles for you by today if you want. Got them all in a SVP shop
Sean Bres- looks like our comments went up at the same time.
ReplyDeleteAM- I have that 13 cent killers book. I haven't heard of the other sniper one but the one about not letting a soldier die sounds like it's a book by a medic. Let me know if it's any good. I have another book by a medic, Ronald J. Glasser called 365 days and one called "Last Night I Dreamed of Peace" by a female NLF medic. The last one is the medic's diaries before she was killed. The diaries were taken by the US Army after she was killed and published years later with the consent of her family, at the instigation of one of the people who trawled through seized Vietnamese documents.
Simon,
ReplyDeleteEd Kugler did the Dead Centre one. I must put all the ones I have up on the library and you can see them there.
Simon,
ReplyDeleteit is called Let a Soldier Die - about a helicopter pilot's experience of pulling out dead and wounded.
Will have to get reading some of them soon and reviewing them.
Sean,
good to go then on your recommendation. There is about 700 pages in it. A long one. Tempted to send it into Alec as he loves to read and reading is one of the best ways to punch the hours in. I asked him if he wanted Mattahorn sent up.
nice one tain bo,
ReplyDeleteyeah all us TPQers should go trekking oldschool style in the spring and first one to talk about politics ends up on the spit for dinner. mcintyre looks like a big fella, he'd find it hard not talkin about politics haha get a few days out of him.
Didn't realise he was allowed to have books sent in, must get him something as a gift
ReplyDeleteSean,
ReplyDeletedon't rush just yet. I am trying to find out what he needs and does not already have. That way the money spent is going to good use. The republican prisoners have put together a good library. Used books can be sent as well. I will check what he is allowed in. No hard backs are allowed. I expect to hear from him any day.
Grouch,
ReplyDeletenot any more. Taking it down below 15 stone!
That's grand Tony, sure play it by ear. Grouch I'd say we'd be in some bother if the TPQ'ers were all caught out in the woods together! But maybe Sinn Fein might actually lift a finger on this occasion to rescue their prized asset McIvor. He must be well thought of saying he's been granted a weeks leave in Abu Dhabi to get away from the stress. That old passport came in handy after all... God save our Queen!
ReplyDeletesean, abu dhabi - i miss him already. seriously though, i'd be happy if he made some kind of apology to the families his comments offended, i dont believe michael is a baddy, sometimes when ur on the net u type things without thinkin and then they can reappear later to haunt u. as soon as u hit the return button there is no going back. ive written some total crap in me day too.
ReplyDeleteanthony, giv me a few stone im down to 11 - not much eatin on me!
Agreed about the boul' McIvor - a complete idiot more than being an arch-manipulator like those he serves. Definitely owes quite a few an apology for his viscous taunts although I agree the internet causes people to behave in ways they would not in the real world. Heard a good one over on Facebook earlier, the party have decided to complete the process of decommissioning and his laptop, phone and i-pad have been seized accordingly! He's off to Australia apparently on sabbatical, licking his wounds no doubt from a crushing experience at the hands of good old Dixie. I don't think he'd share the more magnanimous view of McIvor as a harmless numpty and perhaps we should be more cautious ourselves after some of the horrible shit he's pulled on here and elsewhere
ReplyDeleteur right there sean, one things for sure, im never runnin for any kind of office, too many electronic skeletons in the net closet. imagine havin dixie on ur case!
ReplyDeleteHaha! He's relentless! Took him years to pin McIvor down but he finally nailed him... Well and truly torn to shreds!
ReplyDeleteSimon,
ReplyDeleteIt is extremely fascinating and makes for gripping reading Giap was in his own right a think outside of the box man when he came to terms with being unable to fight the French head on knowing they were superior in arms but he took the approach of adapting to guerrilla warfare at the same time understanding the value of political awareness both he would put to great use.
He understood the strengths of the French but more importantly pinned down their weaknesses and fought from that position.
That is not to say the Chinese supply of weapons and heavy artillery didn’t help but it sure as hell caught the French intelligence off guard when the first shells landed on their doorstep.
Grouch,
ReplyDeletein my case it would be take a breather every 3 minutes but it is advisable for all to take a break from politics now and again.
By the time I’d get there whoever was on the spit would be well gone.
some of you were looking for blueprints for an anarchist society so heres too, http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libcom.html http://www.infoshop.org/AnarchistFAQSectionI4 --obviously these are crude and alot of things will have to be figured out during a revolution
ReplyDeleteAM- That'll be great.
ReplyDeleteTain Bo- I guess the popularity with war memoirs reached it's peak with the Vietnam War which brought a glut of real life adventure stories but many with deep insights into the emotions involved and later a lot of academic style books. I only hope more books are translated from the Vietnamese point of view.
I have reached an age where I hesitate recommending books I read 20 years ago because occasionally the response isn't positive. When I was a kid I rarely went wrong with a recommendation. But books I recommended 20 years ago and still do are "Chickenhawk" by Robert Mason and "Once a Warrior King" by David Donovan. Looking back though perhaps neither of these books have much insight. I suppose I always knew they didn't. Still, they are interesting and worth a try.
tain bo, i'll save a macInrasher for u, sound. this trekkin thing mightnt be a bad idea. be gas to meet a bunch of indo rep warriors out in the sticks. cormac, lets start the revolution in Coole Park, and im not takin the piss, im not goin unless ur comin but we hav to get more lady TPQers on board though, for gender balance and all that kinda stuff.
ReplyDeleteSimon,
ReplyDeleteI have that Donovan one as well as Chickenhawk. If ever you feel like reviewing anything of what you read throw it our way. I would like to see a collection of Viernam War reviews on TPQ. Enjoyed Tain Bo's comments on Giap against the French.
Grouch,
ReplyDeleteMarty is the man to go off wandering the hills he has the right idea but if you tag along with him I think he said it’s not for the squeamish something to do with sheep he cracks me up always has a joke.
Undoubtedly we certainly need more of the women folk on here balance out the opinions now that the quill audience has grown over the years who knows maybe more will join in along with some of the younger generation.
It is always refreshing to see new comers and to have a read at what they have to say.
Simon,
ReplyDeletemy personal preference is anything that explores the war with the depth of insight and the raw emotion that gives the reader a better understanding of the reality of the conflict.
It would be great getting translations from the Vietnamese point of view.
I think it was 1945 the Japanese occupation granted the people to form their own republic by 1946 the French were back and the long war begins defeating one super power is worthy but beating two that is an accomplishment unheard of.
With last of the American involvement ending in 75 there is certainly a lot of history to write about.
I rarely recommend a book and usually do only if I am sure that who I recommend it to at least holds or held an interest in the subject.
It also would be nice to see a film from the Vietnamese perspective or documentaries along the lines of the 10 thousand day war.
I hope you take Anthony up on the offer as a review on the subject of Vietnam would make for an interesting change of pace.
Also as I said I wouldn’t mind hearing your thoughts on the Hostage of Paradox
AM- Thanks for that. I was looking through my library and now have a book in mind. I will let you know how I get on. Although I am reading Peter Taylor's "Talking to Terrorists" at the moment so I will start on the Vietnam one next.
ReplyDeleteTain Bo- The books "Last Night I Dreamed of Peace" by Dang Thuy Tram and "The Sorrow of War" by Bao Ninh are both translated from Vietnamese.
ReplyDeleteThe first one is the true account in diary form of a a well-off North Vietnamese doctor's entire participation in the war. She is very idealistic and gives an insightful and powerful account of her time in an underground bunker hospital. She uses very beautiful, poetic language in the style of the time but conveys her thoughts with clarity.
The second one is a novel by an ex-Vietnamese soldier but captures an atmosphere that is palpable and intimidating.
"Hostage of Paradox" is on it's way from the States as it is hard to find, even second hand, from sellers closer to home. Let me know what you think of it too. Apparently, it'll take a month or so to get here. :(
Although it goes without saying that I agree that more Vietnamese source books are needed.
ReplyDeleteSimon,
ReplyDeleteI got my copy as a gift at Christmas at the moment I am finishing up a book that I have read 6 or 7 times before The Dialectics of Seeing it is on a rotation amongst other books that I go back to now and then.
I got a little into the book and so far am finding myself following it the first two chapters deal with the journey to Vietnam but along with the physical journey he embarks on an introspective journey struggling with the reality that he is losing his individuality and becoming part of the machine almost haunted with the fact that death awaits him.
Going by that I can only imagine it drawing me in and expect it will be compelling.
I have been meaning to pick up a copy of Last Night I Dreamed of Peace so thanks for the reminder the other one I haven’t heard of but will try and find a copy.
As for the Hostage of Paradox I will not spoil it for you unless it takes a dramatic turn and loses its impact.
On the funny side the more books we have the less time we seem to have to read them.
Tain Bo- "On the funny side the more books we have the less time we seem to have to read them."
ReplyDeleteI have reconciled myself to the fact that I have so many books to read that I will never get round to reading them all. I don't mind, at least I can enjoy a wide range to choose from when deciding what to read next. I don't know if that realisation has had a restraining effect on book purchases or not...
'Rationalisation' is the scourge of the addict.
Simon,
ReplyDeleteI suppose that is one way of looking at it having a choice but it is almost impossible to walk into a used bookshop and leave empty handed.
On the upside it is a healthy addiction until we have more books that space.
Too funny but true rationalisation being the scourge of the addict.
Tain Bo- "On the upside it is a healthy addiction until we have more books than space."
ReplyDeleteI get rid of a few paperback novels now and again. The problems start when you have too many indispensables!! Luckily I am not there yet! :)
Simon,
ReplyDeleteI donated a few boxes of books a few years back but there is limits to that which I will let go of. Nowadays I do try and pick up what I want to read but it is never easy to pass up collecting a few more.
I enjoy the online books but being from the old camp I like having my collection to rummage through and still prefer to carry a book rather than a kindle.
The only thing I am sure about is we can never learn enough.
Tain Bo/Simon,
ReplyDeletewe have just put together a batch of paperbacks to send up to Alec in Maghaberry
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteI am sure he will appreciate that not only will it help pass a few hours but also that he is not forgotten.
If there is anything I can do let me know I hate to see him on the wrong side of the fence again just like any republican prisoner.
I hope he is in good spirits and can only hope his stay is a short one.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteI write to him frequently - so that probably helps him sleep! I am trying to find out what he doesn't have rather than send a heap of books up to his wife that are maybe in the library already. He told me the men have put together a good library. And Alec always loved to read.
Tain Bo- "The only thing I am sure about is we can never learn enough." True, and you can learn many a life's lesson the easy way in a biography.
ReplyDeleteAM- Good stuff! Good thing doing a little research first. If there's anything you're missing and it's more likely to be found here let me know and I will go on a hunt.
AM- I think you're limited to the number you can send in at once though.
ReplyDeleteSimon,
ReplyDeleteI think they are allowed one at a time
Simon,
ReplyDeleteI have been through a fair share of biographies and have my eye on a on a few more.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteThat is good to hear I am sure I am not alone but think many on TPQ would send their best regards to Alec.
The prisoner issue has that isolation of the Magilligan articles so any update is always welcomed.