Guest writer Maitiu Connel with a few questions for republicans. Maitiu Connel is a unionist contributor to TPQ

For this article I wish to set aside any reference to the past in regards to attacks carried out by militant Republicanism or even any actions of Loyalist groups. I simply wanted to ask questions of the Republican audience on this forum: those who are former Republican prisoners, some have been within the Provisional Movement and others from the Irish Republican Socialist section. Overall, republicans share a main objective of uniting Ireland.

The United Irishmen stood for the unification of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter. Henry Joy McCracken and his sister Mary were very much noble and dignified people. I have visited their graves in Clifton Street and also of note is the mass graves from the famine that contain both Catholic and Protestant remains. My own family suffered during the famine and had left Armagh / Tyrone areas to head further north during that period. My Great Grandfather’s side were Irish Catholics and due his marriage to a Scottish girl who was Presbyterian, I was raised within the Presbyterian side of my family and there for, grew up with a Unionist perspective.

With all the modern day sectarian comments and claims from both side of things having never changed, the message of exactly what a united Ireland would entail, is lost in the wind.

I have read Sinn Fein's writings but in reality they are just cheap sound bites and I believe SF are not actively pursuing a UI. We keep hearing about Republican's reaching out to the non-Republican/Nationalist community and how they say we would be better off in a Ireland free from membership of the United Kingdom.

Though exactly how would we be better suited to such a new national creation? Living conditions in the UK are far better (from what we are told). Our health service is better ( no NHS jokes ), better education and better Universities. Standard of living in the UK is also greater.

A UI would require an entire remodel of our every day basics. It would be a huge task. Of course it could be done over time.

As a parent I do have concerns over the Catholic majority of schooling in the ROI. I do not like any religion having any input in a child's education. I say this as an Atheist and not due to any other reasoning. Religion needs to be kept out of education altogether.

I would like replies from yourselves on exactly why I should wish to pursue a UI and for us as a young family to support such an action. What would it entail? What does a UI really mean in terms of a modern global world? We would be exchanging the UK for the EU. Still ruled by the Capitalist masters sat in Brussels. With the future creation of a one world banking system, one currency and what I believe will be a totalitarian system in years ahead for our future generations. Is a UI even relevant to the modern world?

What is a United Ireland?

Guest writer Maitiu Connel with a few questions for republicans. Maitiu Connel is a unionist contributor to TPQ

For this article I wish to set aside any reference to the past in regards to attacks carried out by militant Republicanism or even any actions of Loyalist groups. I simply wanted to ask questions of the Republican audience on this forum: those who are former Republican prisoners, some have been within the Provisional Movement and others from the Irish Republican Socialist section. Overall, republicans share a main objective of uniting Ireland.

The United Irishmen stood for the unification of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter. Henry Joy McCracken and his sister Mary were very much noble and dignified people. I have visited their graves in Clifton Street and also of note is the mass graves from the famine that contain both Catholic and Protestant remains. My own family suffered during the famine and had left Armagh / Tyrone areas to head further north during that period. My Great Grandfather’s side were Irish Catholics and due his marriage to a Scottish girl who was Presbyterian, I was raised within the Presbyterian side of my family and there for, grew up with a Unionist perspective.

With all the modern day sectarian comments and claims from both side of things having never changed, the message of exactly what a united Ireland would entail, is lost in the wind.

I have read Sinn Fein's writings but in reality they are just cheap sound bites and I believe SF are not actively pursuing a UI. We keep hearing about Republican's reaching out to the non-Republican/Nationalist community and how they say we would be better off in a Ireland free from membership of the United Kingdom.

Though exactly how would we be better suited to such a new national creation? Living conditions in the UK are far better (from what we are told). Our health service is better ( no NHS jokes ), better education and better Universities. Standard of living in the UK is also greater.

A UI would require an entire remodel of our every day basics. It would be a huge task. Of course it could be done over time.

As a parent I do have concerns over the Catholic majority of schooling in the ROI. I do not like any religion having any input in a child's education. I say this as an Atheist and not due to any other reasoning. Religion needs to be kept out of education altogether.

I would like replies from yourselves on exactly why I should wish to pursue a UI and for us as a young family to support such an action. What would it entail? What does a UI really mean in terms of a modern global world? We would be exchanging the UK for the EU. Still ruled by the Capitalist masters sat in Brussels. With the future creation of a one world banking system, one currency and what I believe will be a totalitarian system in years ahead for our future generations. Is a UI even relevant to the modern world?

46 comments:

  1. Maitiu part of your argument falls flat simply because in the not to near distant future you are planning to up root your family and live in the ROI.

    And you aren't doing it for socialism but more to do with putting more money into your bank account.

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  2. Maitiu-

    " Religion needs to be kept out of education altogether "-

    Funny-but I think that the more a child is taught about religion the quicker that child runs from it-I was taught religion in school by fanatics who talked about love but would have slapped the face of you-the strap was their friend-them religion teachers thought they were still part of the Spanish inquisition-

    what is a united Ireland-

    It is a island that is governed by a party which the 32 counties vote for-

    It is a island at peace with itself and its neighbours-

    It is a island that was dreamt of when the nights were cold and the comrades were few-

    It is a island were everyone is equal-

    Is it going to happen-yes-
    Is there going to be problems-yes-
    but they will be Irish problems-

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  3. Maitui:

    I would agree with MH.

    I used to go to Christian Brothers, cruel bastards in every sense of the word , you could be sitting struggling with a test , put your pencil in your mouth hoping it will make you think clearer , and then, a massive whack across the back of the head with a leather strap filled with lead. MH stated that "But they will be Irish Problems" , I would say that would be the Orange and the Green, and , without a doubt, The Green will overcome. But I will state, There will always be leaders who would be running the country , that's when everything turns topsy turvy and greed sets in, laws for them and laws which we must obey to pay for those running the country. You will always have the masters living in the mansions and the servants (the people) paying for it.

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  4. MH.When you reckon it will happen.Did SF not agree the GFA were a UI cant happen.

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  5. Maitiu a chara,
    Great questions posed. I'm really interested to see the replies also.
    Under some time restraints this evening so I'll have to be very brief in my responses for now.
    A united island without the uninvited influence of other nations is the only way what William Orr, McCracken et al aspired to can be achieved. The only way dissenters like you and I can hope for an egalitarian and peaceful society living alongside Protestants and Catholics is the breaking of the connection with the Imperial coloniser. As long as they stay it's impossible for Protestant, Catholic or Dissenter or their lineage to get out of the bind we're in.
    (For further development of my point see my post, and sean bres's post in Éirígí Showing the Way).

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  6. Frankie.

    Regardless of where I may live for my career, I will always be a British citizen. So that makes my question very relative. Socialism aside, every single person needs to earn an income to support their family.

    MH and Mackers.
    I never really had any religious education in school. In primary school we had to sing a Christian song on a Friday morning followed by the British national anthem. I can still feel the sheer wave of boredom from it.

    I do agree that a UI will happen some day. Right now the government are tackling dissidents / extremists on both sides.

    MH
    Thank you for a literal answer to what a UI is. However, I feel you know exactly what I may be asking.

    How do we address the major issues that would arise from a national switch?

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  7. HenryJoy

    I had a very interesting conversation today over lunch at Uni. We were talking about this exact issue and we all believe ( friends were all Unionist ) that a UI will happen within the next 30 - 50 years.
    Two of us actually just let a particular wording slip out without any thought. Those words went like this " If the English had never been an imperialist nation that invaded countries on a global level, we would probably be living in relative peace like they do in the USA and ROI".
    Either way they did and my community is rather stuck in the middle. Not wanted by the English and not wanting the ROI.
    Loyalism is akin to the land that time forgot.

    We know and fully lay the blame of this sordid mess in NI at the feet of the British empire. However that does not deal with Unionist people like myself who feel rather abandoned and worried about how we would be treated in a UI.

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  8. Does anyone address theses issues in the ROI ?

    While the idea of a UI is not appealing to all people, if it is to be done.. How ?

    If a UI is your goal, these issues must be dealt with at some point. Discussion about what that takes could only be helpful.

    I'm sure some may dismiss this, as such things are not the "big picture"... It is not about divisions. But remove the divisions, and these questions will still be asked.

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  9. Maitiu:

    It will be a fully 32 county Irish Nation. You will be classed as Irish , Not , British.

    That's something you will have to be thinking about.

    I cant see it happening within the next 50 years though. But I hope I am Wrong, SF have set us back to Collins accepting 26 counties and 6 in the north which favoured the Protestant domination and vote rigging , Slums for Catholics , Houses for Protestants. Now its the Protestant who are complaining about PSNI/RUC brutality, The wee flag issue, which is in line with the rest of the UK,Bad Housing , They paint over a mural of a legend footballer to portray a UVF gunman. Were's the mentality in that, They have broke there cease fire several times, its just about the right time to reel them and there drugs in, Everyone knows who they are, were the live, were the meet, Raids should be carried out to get those drugs and weapons, which were never decommissioned.

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  10. The painting over of the George Best mural was a terrible move. Locals can not simply speak out or they face a petrol bomb or a beating. Personal experience of that in my family.

    I am not against being classed as Irish. I already class myself northern Irish first and British second.
    I was raised to embrace our Irish side.

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  11. Maitiu,
    Yes you do pose some interesting questions, however making comparisons between Brussels and the UK is like saying what's the difference between neo liberalism and neo liberalism or what do you get when you cross a totalitarian regime with a dictatorship.
    We have seen the result of this ideology on a global scale. In essence it does precisely what the Brits done here it reduces an economy to the extent it becomes dependant . They done the same in India to the extent the economy becauses dependant on the people who screwed the life blood out of it for years.
    The situation in the Free State is the result of a crisis in neo liberalism now called a global recession.
    What happened here was deliberate policy of theft and dependency.
    Would we better of if the country is united?
    I would say yes but I would say it would take a long time to overcome the damage but we wouldn't be any worse off.
    As for the religious education. Children these days have a tendency to see through the guff, let them make up their own minds.

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  12. A united Ireland with a constitution akin to the Bolivarian Republic in Venezuela would solve all our issues

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  13. Maitiu
    Isn't it great the way the things that need to be said often just slip out!
    If we can agree as to the source and core of the problem that's a great first step. Meeting on agreed common ground of analysis as to the problem is indeed a great starting point for a mutually respectful discussion.
    We all, Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter want for ourselves, our children and for the generations as yet unborn, to live with dignity, respect, security and the right to pursue happiness. That's almost a human given.
    If we want that, we must also be prepared to give that to others. Idealogical republicans are firmly committed to this, in fact honour bound to this. True republicans will follow the lead of Tone and the northern Presbyterian strongly influenced United Irishmen's diktats for equality for all. True Republicans will demand a bill or rights to ensure such measures. True Republicans will be duty-bound to stand full square along side Unionists should their legitimate needs not be met.

    Republicans will have to allow Unionists to retain British passports should they so choose and give joint citizenship as in a similar vein as currently available from the 'FreeState' to 'UK' citizens resident in the North.
    It's important to realise how successful the 'Irish Counter revolution' was after 1922. What you see now in the 26 counties is not what Republicans ever fought for or wished for. (See John M Regan's The Irish Counter revolution, 1921-36: Treatyite Politics and Settlement in Independent Ireland)

    And on the EU; in an ideal situation we would reclaim our sovereignty from Europe too. Republicans have always opposed involvement and campaigned against it over the last forty years.

    The Democratic Programme of the First Dáil in 1919 stated "It shall be our duty to promote the development of the Nation’s resources, to increase the productivity of its soil, to exploit its mineral deposits, peat bogs, and fisheries, its waterways and harbours, in the interests and for the benefit of the Irish people."

    The international waters around the island of Ireland are forty times greater than the land mass and contain hydro-carbons and mineral resources which require protection from international profiteers and which could be developed jointly with other sovereign nationalised industries such as Norway's Stat Oil, or in a Chinese funded Irish controlled venture to capitalise and rapidly develop our economy which would provide better living standards to those which currently exist in the UK or FreeState

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  14. Maitiu
    " However that does not deal with Unionist people like myself who feel rather abandoned and worried about how we would be treated in a UI."

    It's very lonely at times being a republican too Maitiu regardless of which Sate he/she lives in.
    I'm an Ulster man who has lived longer now in 26 counties than I lived in the North, though in truth I can't say I wasn't wanted up there (lol) but when I speak my truth down here I'm definitely not wanted.
    True republicans in the 26 counties have had a rough time right since partition and alas many Nordies ignore that, and unwittingly to their cost.

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  15. From Joe Glocken

    Maitiu Connel your article is so relevent and expresses your thinkikng ina realistic , responsible and impartial way.
    Personally from my own past and set in stone patriotic views, justifying
    the unjustifiable has developed into similar thought; I cannot answer fact
    from personal views but have a few certain facts ;as yet un reliably
    challenged;
    Presently we could ask for an impartial identity of an Irishman:?? What
    was the difference between Edward Carson and Eammon Develara regarding
    their view of IRISH identity;
    Today I believed we all have a lot of revisionism to honest addressing to
    undertake

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  16. Joe,
    What was the difference between Edward Carson and Eammon Develara

    Carson was an Irish protestant while Eammon was a plastic paddy. People can dress it up how they want but the fact is Eddie was Irish while Eammon D wasn't (in fact he played the yank card to save his butt!!)

    Getting back to some of Maitiu's point's... You say you are northern Irish first, British second and what, Irish third or does your American citizenship come before your Irishness? My take is simple Maitiu (I'm applying the same logic here as I do to any mathematic problem<--keep it as simple as possible). If you can hold your right hand up and promise to serve Uncle Sam and salute the star spangled banner (as you already ready have), then whats the problem in doing the same to the Irish flag and pledging your support/alliance to Ireland? Just out of interest do you have an Irish or British passport?

    Personally I believe all PUL-ers are living in denial about their Irishness. How do you start educating them? Simple answer is you start at primary school and explain that the founders of Irish republicanism where Irish protestants. The people who saved the Irish language & culture again mostly Irish protestants. A lot of their emblems etc have more to do with Irish culture than anything remotely British. Exactly how British is the loyalist Red Ha nd?

    What makes you want to be British Maitiu when you know that the problems in Ireland are directly caused by British influence.

    As for putting socialism to oneside. Why? In a lot of your arguments etc, socialism is the coner stone in which you base your views on. Yet you want to move to the ROI for more green backs in your back account. Not because of socialist ideals but pure any simply capitilist ones (dress it up as you please but thats how it is).

    How do you start to have a UI..Simply put the British have to told again to'Get the Fcuk out'..And as long as there a British presence in Ireland then there is always going to be PFR's in some form or other. I have learnt that much from Irish history if nothing else.

    What do you do when the border is removed. Simply cancel all debt and have (for starters) free health, education, affordable housing, cheaper energy bills (there is enough natural resources to pay). Before people start saying you can't cancel the debt etc.. Why not? Carts didn't have wheels until somebody thought about it. Chavez didn't care what the White house said. He gave them the two fingered salute and at the minute its working. Iceland didn't ask for help. Iceland is a lava rock in the Artic circle and wrote of mortgage debt. Sometimes the most obvious answer is not only the best but simplest too. What is wrong with nationalizing banks, energy companies etc..?

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  17. Frankie.

    I have to answer this as best as I can. Can I 100% identify what makes me British? I have been searching for that answer for ten years and still do not have any answers. Beyond the fact that I was born a British citizen, I do not feel British nor do I feel any connection to England. I have asked a good few people what being British is here and what it means to them and still to no avail.
    Passport wise, I hold an Irish passport. As do my parents.
    I simply do not know what being British really is. Is it just a mere mindset due to the political atmosphere here? possibly yes.
    In our home we have mostly Irish decorations. Custom made bodhran, Irish crosses and ancient Gaelic artwork. I love Irish dancing and use to travel to Celtic matches. Played GAA in school and endured Irish language classes. Am I a typical Unionist? far from it.
    I do identify and feel proud of my Scottish side of the family who fought in the world wars and I do support remembrance day. I am against militant Republicanism. I am also against loyalist terror groups also.
    We as a family attend St.Patrick day parade each year but we would never attend a loyalist band parade, 12th July or bonfires. We leave NI during those periods for our holiday. Simply do not wish for our kids to exposed to it and we do not feel connected to that belief system in anyway.
    Yet my Grandmother and her Scottish family were members of the Orange Order.

    I am very socialist but I feel you are a tad hung up over my desire to pursue my career. Everybody needs to work and I happen to be within a very specialised sector.
    Despite our liberal views mo chara, I do have a family to pay for.

    Though tell me. How could I ever fit into the Republican side? I would probably be targeted by both sides. I honestly feel lost in limbo at times. I am rather stuck in the middle of the spectrum and people like myself are not really accounted for in this country. You are either green or orange and I am neither.

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  18. Matthieu you could fit into the republican side no problem, people like yourself are more than welcome and would have a lot to offer

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  19. LOL - only last week you were calling him a jumped up cunt!! This blog is a madhouse

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  20. Well he'd have to accept our ideology of course, at times the lad seems halfway there. If he ever were to do so he'd be welcomed without hesitation and that's the point I make. He would not be the first Protestant to shift his allegiance to Irish republicanism in recent years - Ronnie Bunting comes to mind. As for the Quill it was ever thus in my experience! No matter what I said, albeit justifiably in my opinion, Mattieu has demonstrated he has something to offer

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  21. it's good to see he has been rehabilitated!! One less for the gulag!

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  22. Maitiu...IMO the troubles here was always about the snouts.if a UI was called in the morning the uvs and their ilk are going to perform.They would have to be curtailed long enough for things to settle.or theres always the seacat.JMO.

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  23. Aye, you see in life you can be a cunt one week and salt of the earth the next.

    In my opinion as long as you remain true to yourself and can question what you see around you are pretty lucky, as when you don't see it, that's when you are in trouble.

    "A simple kind of man" lyrics by Lynnard Skinner should be the saving grace for many a man.

    AM, One less for the gulag! Funny.

    Fair play to you Maitui, I agree with mostly what you say, and I do not care which allegiance you claim to be your own.

    You could simply settle for Northern Irish and to fuck with the whole tribal green and orange shite. I do not belong to the green or orange, nationalist or unionist identity AS identifiable by the good Friday agreement. I also voted for Jedi knight as religion in the consensus.

    I am an Ulsterman first and Irish next, I have two differing passports, for no other reason that 1. I could 2. It was handy at the time.

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  24. From my formative years, and since I left the North, I have always wondered why UI sorts are always so hung up on socialism? Jeez, lowest common denominator of the lowest common denominator politics.

    I'd always have been more...comfortable with a UI if the proponents weren't all left-wing. (And before anyone jumps, be careful of your assumptions.)

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  25. Maitiu,

    I always am uneasy with the control religion has on both sides of the border.
    The church of course has a role to play for the respective believers but why should it give the church a major say in the political course of a country.

    We only need to glance across the imaginary line and see the Catholic majority and the Protestant minority fair well for the most part and live quietly together.
    There were no pogroms after partition to chase all the Protestants north and since then Protestant republicans have not been subjected to sectarianism.

    Unlike in the north the ordinary run of the mill Catholic has had to endure sectarianism since partition and were regarded as second class which clearly defines the enforcement of British rule.
    It looks like the southern Protestants got the fairer master.

    I would think our brothers and sisters to the south would look upon us in the north as the wayward children ready to destroy anything that doesn’t promote our respective beliefs.
    If they held a referendum in the south tomorrow on reunification I think we would find that a large portion would vote no and with good reason why would they want the militants in the north adding to their financial woes.

    I know a few Catholics here would vote no as they enjoy the slightly better economy that and they only have one true struggle that is to provide for their families.

    I don’t know what an United Ireland is but the transition period would have to be a lengthy one.
    I do know with militant loyal-ism on the rise they already fear that which is a distant dream and memory for republicans.
    They know the easiest solution to the question of Irish unity is to wage another terror campaign.
    Their logic based in their conditioning and they fear being swallowed up into what they see as a papist socialist country which is far from the truth.
    The ROI is still a little behind the times and very much conservative in their views.

    If and when it does come about I would hope by that time the northern people are a bit more united as we would need to be when voting for our fair share of the cake in a united Ireland.
    I hold no respect for Irish governments as they did little to nothing for unification apart from appeasing the Brits ensuring the imaginary line would stay intact.

    I do know that foreign investors would be more than happy to invest in a stable country unlike our wee neck of the woods were investors remain iffy.
    I also know that the 9 counties of Ulster would be a massive voting bloc which holds the potential to change the dynamics of traditional Irish governments.

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  26. AM
    Perhaps we have some mystical healers on this forum. Tonight i shall sing myself to sleep singing Sean South. Never a dull moment on the Pensive Quill.

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  27. MAITIU.dont try and be clever about dreaming of sean south.maybe the marra night you can dream of the udr .None of th isms will com into it all this SF balls welcome.You will treated like the statement read on the steps of the gpo .if thats not good enough as i said theres always the seacat.scotland mght not accept you depending on the vote.

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  28. I am not a prod. I am not (logically) *Orange. I am most certainly not a Rangers or Linfield supporter!

    I am, however a Unionist. I am British, Irish and an Ulsterman.

    That Britishness is not a result of "false consciousness" forced upon me by imperialism as some have alleged on here- I am British.

    I am also Irish and (I believe anyway) that does not mean I need to agree with the principles behind the GPO proclamation nor indeed the "logic" behind the Frizzels or Enniskillen massacres.. I won't be heading for the Seacat, no matter what happens here in the future. This is my homeland.

    But my point is that it's really not me and "my ilk" that supporters of a UI need to be worried about really, you have no chance of convincing me of your cause.

    But I think it quite well be the case now that a majority in NI really are now apathetic about the future constitutional status of NI *as long* as they perceive their own place within the UK/island of Ireland is safe and more importantly, perhaps, as long as they feel that economically they are presently doing as well as they could do.

    Also, while the opposite would make life easier for the politicians and journalists, a large minority/small majority of the population in NI do not have a single identity based on their culture, religion, national identity.

    That fact has to be taken on board by nationalists- the onus is on them (Unionists are more than happy with an apathetic status quo) to show why a UI would be better for such people. And you are not doing that.

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  29. Tain Bo I can't see a renewed loyalist terror campaign lasting 5 minutes without the Brits to back them up. They'd be crushed in no time worth talking about

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  30. And O'Neill you are no more British than I am Scottish

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  31. Maitiu,
    I'm seriously trying to understand (not point score). By your own admission you have no connection with England and you don't feel British. So why keep looking for answers that aren't there? When the most obivous is is staring you in the face, basically you are as Irish as myself. I will hazzard a guess that you are 'afraid' to admit you are Irish becasue you (or your family) lived in a Loyalist community and we all know what would (and probably still today) happen if you openly admit to being Irish. I am wondering if that part of your problem in embracing your 'irishness'. After all you are well over the hump in that regard. A simple look at your intrest in all things cultural..Irish dancing, Irish lang, played GAA (hurling, football or both?)..You have an Irish passport. What is the mental block that stops you (or prevents you) from coming out of the closet?

    I can easily understand you wanting to move to advance your career for the betterment of your family. I did the same years ago and am helping pay for my oldest wee girl to go through Uni in the south of France (she's currently studying law). But I didn't move for socialist reasons, it was greed. I wanted more money and a better standard of living. Same as yourself. I fully take on board you wanting the gap between the have and have nots brought closer together. And I'm sure you wouldn't object to free health, cheaper mortgage, energy bills..Maybe even taking industries such as banks, rail etc out of private hands and back into the public domain. But you have to admit (even to yourself) that part of your reason for up rooting is based on capitalism.

    As for how can you fit into a republican side..? Thats not for me to decide or anyone else. That lies soley at your door step. At a guess (if I was you), I would come out of closet and openly admit you are Irish. I don't call myself an Irish republican. Growing up in Ardoyne during the conflict (I have said before here), I classed myself as Belfast RockaBilly . That what I was (and still am).

    They where goods times,with a lot of girls and guys just out to have a bit of fun and stick there fingers up to the mayhem happening in Belfast at the time.
    We where only kids after all and on reflection should probably never have been in Belfast and in a notorious part of the docks on a Fri and Sat nights at the height of the troubles.
    (many a lie was told to your parents about your weekend recreational activities)


    Maitiu, you don't have to be an Irish Republican to be Irish.

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  32. ONeill

    "Also, while the opposite would make life easier for the politicians and journalists, a large minority/small majority of the population in NI do not have a single identity based on their culture, religion, national identity."

    Very well said. I am Irish first and British second. I do however not feel that " British " and that could be perhaps because I do not view myself as Orange and it is that Orange / Loyalist aspect that is so associated with being British here. People wish to place us all into little orange or green boxes.

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  33. sean bres:

    And O'Neill you are no more British than I am Scottish

    And in one statement we have exactly why some on the Unionist side are wary of themmuns on the other side.

    Thank God we have someone like you to point out what we think, best not us having think for ourselves, eh?

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  34. I have noticed for a while now Unionist commentators asking / saying-' youse cant convince me '
    ' I would not vote for a United Ireland '
    ' How can you convince me '

    Grow the fcuk up-your not needed-just don't fight that much when it slowly happens-

    Sean bres is right- Loyalists / Unionists are nothing unless they are sucking at the states teat-
    There wee protest march at Ardoyne yesterday only attracted 200 people when they applied for 5000 people to be at it-when the cops are not protecting Unionists when they walk past Catholic areas the scared critters stay at home-

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  35. Sean Bres,
    I don't envy O Neill all those identities as It will become problematic when he attempts to fill in a form, British or Irish is as good as it gets there's no box for both. Clearly not very forward thinkers those bureaucrats there isn't a space for bi- identity.
    I wonder will the idea catch on though?
    A person can be one of each Irish and British , Protestant and Catholic, Palestian and Jew.
    Where do the Ulster Scotch fit in? Are they Ulster Scot and British or Ulster Scot and Irish? Or just Ulster, Ulster Scotch?
    Too confusing, better sticking with one identity or going with Mairead Corrigan's suggestion of a new identity, sort of one size fits all.
    It would certainly solve Sinn Fein's canvass form dilemma .
    Wonder what the new identity will be?

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  36. fionnuala

    When we had to do the voting forms, I did not even think for a second when I ticked the Irish box for Nationality.
    I think living in America made me very use to just identifying myself as Irish. I had times when people could not understand why i had British citizen on my green card.
    My wifes family use to enjoy reminding me that the Americans kicked the brits out lol. Rather strange at first celebrating the 4th July.
    Though America gave me the freedom to really explore who I am. Then we moved back here and it has been difficult at times to be honest.

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  37. "Can I 100% identify what makes me British"

    For a person living in this part of Ireland it depends on whether you believe you are a citizen or a subject Maitiu. Supporting the monarchy and allegience to the crown you are a subject. whereas in a republic, the citizenry is theoretically sovereign and there are no subjects. Britain is a collection of countries, the union, who swear alligence to the monarchy and the crown if there was no union or crown colonies, crown dominions etc there would be no such entity as a British subject. Of course you can at this moment be a republican and believe in the union but with no monarchy all parts would become independant and there would be no British subjects or what you would call British citizens.

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  38. Stray Toaist if you want to turn that abortion of a comment from O'Neill on me then well and good. I suggest you read it again and think why I said what I said before misrepresenting my comment as though I were a bigot. I've no problem with people having a British identity, in fact it's something I consider an inalienable right for those who come from the Protestant (broadly-speaking) community due to their ancestry. But whoever that lad is one thing for sure is he's not British and if we're gonna start saying he's entitled to feel so judging by how he's described his background then I've the right to consider myself Argentinian or Bolivian or Chinese or all three. It makes as much sense

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  39. sean: Apologies, I might have picked it up wrong. Though re-reading it, I can kind-of see what you meant.

    However, I wasn't calling you a bigot, that wasn't inherent in it. It is just there is a strand of republicanism that brands Unionists 'confused Irishmen', which while they might be, isn't helpful.

    Identity is a problematic issue, and I have no problem with anyone self-identifying (regardless of how insane it might be), and I have more problems with people telling those who do self-identify they are wrong.

    ...and my name is Loretta. It is every man's right to have babies if he wants them...

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  40. No worries. That a line from a song or what just out of curiosity?

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  41. Heh, no The Life Of Brian:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

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  42. One thing in America is that they do not usually define themselves as American, they go by the ancestors home country. My wife is American but calls herself German as her Grandparents came from there. Tons of people I knew classed themselves as all sorts of European countries, despite the fact they had never been there nor spoke the language let alone be a citizen of that country. It use to annoy the life out of me when people would say to me " cool accent, where you from?" to which I replied with being Irish. They honestly thought they were also Irish but yet did not even know my accent to be Irish.
    It drove me mad to be honest. I use to say to them, you are not German or Dutch or Irish, you are American.
    Nationality is a very emotive issue.

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  43. MC said: “I would like replies from yourselves on exactly why I should wish to pursue a UI and for us as a young family to support such an action.”

    You should wish to pursue a UI like you should wish to pursue a United Cyprus or United Vietnam.
    That is you (and everyone else) should oppose imperial occupation and rule everywhere. Because implicit in your question is a disturbing defense of imperial colonialism everywhere. Imagine an American saying: “Why should I wish to pursue a free & united Vietnam?” And the fact that a lot of South Vietnamese supported American occupation & rule shouldn’t matter...any more than Vichy Frenchmen who supported German occupation and rule of France. Even most English people I know don’t buy into the delusion of “…our occupation & rule good.”
    So they want England out of Ireland like many American want the US out of Puerto Rico & Afghanistan.

    MC said: “What would it entail?”

    It would be a 32 county democratic Republic instead of just a 26 county democratic Republic. And the sun will still come up in the east and go down in the west.

    MC said: “What does a UI really mean in terms of a modern global world?”

    Same as a United Germany or a United France or pick any unoccupied and free country.

    MC said: “We would be exchanging the UK for the EU.”

    No you wouldn’t be since the UK is already in the EU.

    MC said: “Still ruled by the Capitalist masters sat in Brussels.”

    And London, and New York, and Berlin, and (pick a major financial center).

    MC said: “With the future creation of a one world banking system, one currency and what I believe will be a totalitarian system in years ahead for our future generations.”

    Where you been? Ever hear of the World Bank and the IMF? The LIBOR scandal?

    MC said: “Is a UI even relevant to the modern world?”

    Yes and especially so in light of the totalitarian capitalist forces you just referred to. Nationalism is the antidote for out of control internationalism. Moreover a United Ireland free & independent of English occupation and rule….
    Is just as relevant as a United England free and independent of say German occupation and rule.

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  44. Maitiu,

    My wifes family use to enjoy reminding me that the Americans kicked the brits out lol.

    Here's a funny story for your wife about British revisionism. In 1959 a singer by the name of Johnny Horton recorded a song called 'The battle of New Orleans', which was a comical take on the American War of Independence. Long story short, when the song was released to the UK charts, it had to be re-worded because a song about the British getting beat was to offensive. The two versions can be found on this link..Why let a few little historical facts get in the way of commerce .

    You can take 5mins out of your life to listen to the two versions or one minute by listening to the first verse of each..

    Basically in the original the British got beat, in the re-worded version it sounds like the British won..

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  45. Sean Bres,

    5 minutes into the loyalist pogroms they were creating an environment that would ensure division would last.
    The warning signs were there long before they started much in the same way they are visible today.
    It would be foolish to rule out another campaign it is also foolish to suggest they depend on the British security forces. That arrangement worked out well when the Brits needed to use loyalist paramilitaries’ in their dirty war against the nationalist.
    What is to stop them from waging a campaign against anything that remotely points towards an united Ireland and you can almost be assured that some evil forces in the Brit dirty tricks department are feeding the loyalists today.

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  46. Grand discussion..

    So, if'ter after everything.. Isn't it just a discussion for a new NI identity. ?

    What is that ? Such a huge part of the identity is death, and conflict.

    If the "peace process" continues, this binary knot needs to be undone.. Just don't understand the lack of interest..

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