However, a piece in the Irish Times about a Drogheda priest caught my eye. Iggy Donovan, or Father Iggy as he is known with quite some affection, seems to have the respect of many in the town, people of faith and none. Occasionally he can be seen going about his business much like everybody else. While out walking the mutts one day with a friend we bumped into him on one of the more scenic routes and briefly exchanged pleasantries. My friend, not a believer either, had a good word for him.
Father Iggy is being moved out of his Drogheda ministry. In the view of the town’s mayor, Richie Culhane, the people behind the push are working to an “ultra-conservative” agenda. There is reason for a concern that should stretch beyond Church members. In his last homily in the Augustinian Chapel Iggy fired a broadside at ‘right-wing Catholics and career-oriented clergy in persecuting Irish priests recently silenced by the Vatican.’
Part of the purpose of the homily was to express solidarity with Tony Flannery of the Association of Catholic Priests(ACP)
I cannot leave here today without making some reference to a distinguished colleague of mine in the priesthood. I speak of Fr Tony Flannery. If I had not been made aware first hand of the details of this case I could not have given it credence ... Even hardened veterans are shaken by the murkiness of the devious world of ecclesiastical politics. How has it come to this, that a great and good priest like Tony, who has dedicated his life to the preaching of the Gospel, is persecuted with a zeal that is as pathological as the paranoia that feeds it?
... how has it come to this, that intolerant and extreme right wingers, encouraged apparently by certain authorities and career-orientated priests, can meet in solemn conclave to determine who is guilty of what these people label heresy?
... how has it come to this that sincere thinking Catholics are walking away from our Church believing that the battle for sane Catholicism is lost?
To insist that Catholicism never seems sane at the best of times would be to miss the point which is that in a scoiety where voices of dissent are being suffocated there is a detrimental knock-on effect in terms of public understanding.
It was reported in June that Iggy's friend and colleague, Tony Flannery, ‘has not been allowed to practise as a priest or to take part in the work of the Association of Catholic Priests.’ It is clear that Flannery was the target of Vatican censorship. The Irish Catholic reported in 2012 that the founder of ACP:
has ceased writing his regularly monthly column in the Redemptorist Reality magazine. The Irish Catholic understands that this is as a direct consequence of the Vatican’s intervention. It is the first time in 14 years that Fr Flannery’s regular column has not appeared.
Whatever the theological aspect of these disputes - I doubt there is any, merely a will to stifle independent thought confronted by a will to reflect and question - it does not interest me. With Tony Flannery censored and Iggy Donovan being exiled to some gulag ecclesiastico in Limerick, there is a glaring need for people outside the Church to back those within it who are standing up to reactionary clerics who wish to pollute society with their toxic influence. Wherever censorship exists it should be confronted by a rising crescendo of the very noise it wishes to have hushed up through an imposed vow of silence.
In fighting, is now the norm within the Catholic church, and , as far as I'm concerned, It always has been.
ReplyDeleteWe just have to look at the Money Laundering fiasco in the Vatican bank , and this new pope is Attempting to change it, "Maybe by making it more hidden", I could visualize him say , WTF, how did this come about , find the Grassing Bastards. It's not What you Know, It's who you know, The powers that be , make sure those who are to be silenced , will be silenced.
I myself no longer go to mass, except for funerals or an occasional wedding/Christening.
It's sad that Flannery's Column has been stopped and Iggy being put out to roost, reminiscent of SF , and , for that matter , any politial or religious organisations , Those Trying to get to the top of the ladder and hoping the snake doesn't appear.
WHO GIVES A FUCK ! Spreading shit in Limerick is just as bad as spreading shit in Drogheda, that the bitches are backstabbing is nothing new in that and the other churches,all a bunch of pervie prima donnas,
ReplyDeletewhats a catholic priests favourite film ? ...Aladin...
I take it you are not with me on this one then Marty!!
ReplyDeleteIt's not What you Know, It's who you know
ReplyDeleteIt’s just macker
Exactly, it’s the same in all religious establishments, its how a former public schoolboy recently became the head cleric of the church of England and how Hassan Rouhani became president of Iran, and why the Argentine became Pope.
Wheels within wheels, a curse on the whole rotten bunch of them. As Buenaventura Durutti said "The only church that illuminates is a burning church."
I myself no longer go to mass,
ReplyDeleteIt'sjust, some people would call you an infidel for not going and admitting it on a Sunday too....I'm like you, I stopped going yrs ago, In fact I can't remember the last time I was a 'pewster'..<--thanks to Kev O'Higgins for that word..That word sounds almost gay or at least an insult...Imagine for 1 min someone called you.." a pewster"..You'd give them a slap.
It is sinister, almost like a horror movie unfolding, secret courts, priests been gagged, journalists being shot, killed or jailed for telling/reporting the truth,..Leveson, banks allowed to get away with theft..different rules applied to investigating the troubles..and it's just not back home where it's happening. it's happening across the globe...
One of the things I respect you for Anthony is you allow 'laymen' like myself the space and freedom to express our opinions...
The internal squabbles within the catholic church always remind me of one of David Attenborough,s African wildlife programmes especially the ones that show large numbers of cape vultures squabbling over the body ,and like the catholic church they take the food from those who worked for it ..so in this one Anthony a cara my opinion is if they take the popes shilling then they take his shit ...
ReplyDeleteOr to put it simply a cara I think that they are all cracked ,some just not as cracked as much..
ReplyDeleteOrganised Rage, Mick loved that Durutti quote gonna keep that close to my heart a cara ..
ReplyDeleteEnjoyed that quote myself Mick.
ReplyDeleteFrankie,
facilitating opinion is what I do. It can hardly be said that I like everything that appears on this blog!
It's the Vatican themselves that are the heretics and have completely abandoned the simple message of Jesus the Nazarene - for their own material benefit without doubt. But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with being a "pewster". I personally don't see the need to kneel at the altar rail but I wouldn't object to those that do. Because the message and example of Jesus Christ is as relevant and as useful in today's world as it's ever been and something I'd never disown as a proud Christian. One thing for sure is that just because man in his supposed wisdom can't understand or comprehend the Devine reality doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What do we know? The consciousness of man to that of God is like that of a worm to a man... It's beyond our comprehension and earthly attempts to reconfigure the presence of God in our lives into something more "human" is what allows for the easy way God can be academically dismissed. It does not in my view account for the Higher Power, because in the grand scheme of things while we believe ourselves to know everything in fact we know nothing
ReplyDeleteThem priests take their religion seriously-
ReplyDeleteSeems to be more splits and cursing
in the priestHOODs than among the dissos-birds of a feather-
I would still attend mass despite the local priest trying to move me from a Easter collection a few years ago-he left me alone after a few choice words by myself-never get over the fact that those who complain the most get a shock when they are spoken back to-[ he is a stoop anyway ]
Jesus!! Sean we will never know anything if we keep believing that shit,it was,nt that long ago that we were getting the crap beat out us if we couldnt repeat the catechism, from who created the world to Adam and Eve and all this was gods word, why was it changed? ,what a load of bollocks,how come this god who sends all sorts of natural disasters to us also bombards uninhabited planets with asteroids,its certainly beyond my comprehension how intelligent people can believe in such an evil bastard of a deity,I agree we may not know everything but science is asking the questions,they will provide the answers not some geezer in a dress with a pointy hat,
ReplyDeleteSure yer all stoops now Mickybroy
ReplyDeleteMarty even modern science itself, despite its own compromised, limited capacity to interpret and understand the full reality of things, now propounds the interconnectedness of everything and states there is the meta-physical as well as the physical. But whether a man chooses to accept Jesus of Nazareth as a Prophet, The Lord, the God-head or whatever doesn't take away from his message and example. Make no mistake their existed in time a man called Jesus the Nazarene who offered an alternative to the way of things, an alternative based on sound principles which we all should feel comfortable with, not least of which was "love one another as I have loved you". I could never see anything wrong with that. I believe this man to have been more in sync with the true reality of things and as such had a greater intuitive capacity to understand the true nature of God. He tried to present his understandings to us in a manner we could understand and thus it was hidden in the parables he told. God does not send storms or floods or earthquakes - that's just the way of things. God can be found in everything that ever has and ever will be, from the birds in the skies to the fish in the seas, in the air we breath, in the trees, the soil, the sun, the stars. God is all things - seen and unseen. I prefer to see it as was quoted from the hidden Gospel of Thomas - "the Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift a stone and you will find me"
ReplyDelete"lift a stone and you will find me" ahhhhhhhhh gods a woodlouse ,fuck me they taste a bit like prawns to ..
ReplyDeleteHa! Every man to himself hass! We can agree on that!
ReplyDeleteSean Bres,
ReplyDelete"Marty even modern science itself, despite its own compromised, limited capacity to interpret and understand the full reality of things, now propounds the interconnectedness of everything and states there is the meta-physical as well as the physical."
Which scientists now propound these theories? What exactly do these scientists mean by the terms "interconnectedness" and "metaphysical"?
'But whether a man chooses to accept Jesus of Nazareth as a Prophet, The Lord, the God-head or whatever doesn't take away from his message and example. Make no mistake their existed in time a man called Jesus the Nazarene who offered an alternative to the way of things, an alternative based on sound principles which we all should feel comfortable with, not least of which was "love one another as I have loved you".'
Well, the Biblical Jesus wasn't the most consistent of fellows. In addition to the peace and love, some of the more frightening quotes from the New Testament are also attributed to him. Take Matthew 10:34-37, for instance:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Make no mistake their existed in time a man called Jesus the Nazarene
ReplyDeleteI'm not to sure their was Sean. In fact their is very little proof that someone called Jesus actually existed, never mind died on a cross. And the dead sea scrolls throw a very different light on the heavily edited book that Christians put their faith in. His side kick Peter for example. Peter when re-translated back to ancient Greek and then to Aramaic, basically means 'hard man' that's why he is called 'Peter the Rock'. Why does a man who is meant to have preached 'peace and love' need a bodyguard? To stop the groupies?
As for Jesus's daddy, who you call god. Which god in bible are we talking about? It (the bible) gives me the impression their was more than one. There is mention of a jealous god, an angry god. There is even talk of making man in our likeness. Even one of the commandments given to Moses goes something like this., " I am the lord your god, thou shall not have strange gods before me". All leads me to believe there is more than one person claiming to be god.
I prefer to see it as was quoted from the hidden Gospel of Thomas -
Such as making birds from clay, zapping kids with his magic powers because someone pissed him off. That's what part of the Gospel of Thomas (or some other novelist) says Jesus was doing when he was a pup.
God can be found in everything that ever has and ever will be, from the birds in the skies to the fish in the seas, in the air we breath, in the trees, the soil, the sun, the stars
Sean lots of people believe life came about on earth because a meteor crashed into earth a few billion yrs ago and started a chain reaction. Some people think another species paid this rock a visit and tweaked the gene pool of apes. Personally I believe we are nothing but a complete freak of nature. If believing in any religion makes someone happy, gives them comfort or other, I wont stand in your way. Just don't ask me to buy into it.
As for the word pewster, I still think its a great word. My jury is still out on it sounding gay or an insult (only because of the sound it makes when you say it)..Up until I was 21, I'd probably have been at more weddings, funerals and masses than most people my age. Until I left home, I was an alter boy in Ardoyne chapel. Basically I went to 15 masses a month as a pup not counting weddings & funerals and then later 8-10 a month. One of the strangest weddings I have ever served was when I was 8yrs old. It was at 7am. Every other wedding I've ever served was a Saturday between 10am an 1pm. A funeral was always after 10am mass. On the 5th May 1981 was the first aftermath of a riot I have seen. I had to serve mass at 7am..Brompton park, Balhome Drive, Crumlin Road was littered with bricks, bottles, scorch marks, spent baton rounds. After mass i went to Big Pat Delaneys to get the papers..I collected 40 odd plastic bullets that morning. I still think pewster is a great word. I just have to figure out how to use it.
Sean,
ReplyDeleteI admit to finding this amazing - that people still believe this type of thing in the modern world. But then it is people's right to believe whatever they want, but not to inflict their belief on the rest of us.
I like the word pewster myself and never found it a slag term in the sense that we might refer to a religious loon or nutter.
The purpose of this article is hardly theological or metaphysical but simply one of censorship. Where porous intellectual life is being clogged up by gunge from clerics or politicians inter alia then it needs challenged. We might not always find ourselves in a position where we can challenge but when we can it helps if we do. I doubt very much if the Catholics of Drogheda are going to pay much attention to me!
I just find censorship bullying par excellence and it matters not who is being censored or who is doing the censoring.
Alfie:
ReplyDelete""Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace"
That got me thinking off another reading ;
"King shall fight against King and Nation shall fight against Nation , I Shall Make A Hell On Earth For You"
Look outside any christian church, you will see the sign "God Is Love". What a money racket.
Frankie:
Jesus the so called prophet is in every So Called "Holy Book" , I know the Muslims call him "The False Prophet" , I think its pronounced ,"Isu".
I think this planet was a dumping ground for unwanted species from other dimensions eons ago. Just a thought, because It is stated, God Made everyone in his own Image. FFS How many Images did he have, so he was part,white/Black/Yellow, one squinted eye, probably blue, the other eye probably very dark, a pigs foot, a cows foot, a hump as in camel ,etc, list is endless. If I seen a god like that, I would run like hell. "Makes You Think, Does It Not"
Quantum physics now propounds that the Universe is one large, interconnected mass that vibrates as a living, conscious whole - don't take my word for it, a basic check on the internet would bring this up I'd say. Albert Einstein of world renown was of the same belief. Did you ever realise that when we 'hear' something it's but the drum in our ear-lobe picking up and interpreting a vibration? It is the vibration that actually is physical more-so than the words we hear themselves, they are but an interpretation. As for the Gospels as I said the message is hidden in parables and stories and basically in things that man in his limited state could perhaps understand better - thus the God of this, the God of that and whatever else. But the New Testament can be interpreted to be consistent with the aforementioned, as can the Quaran and other texts, were it not it would long ago have been dismissed by myself. The man known today as Jesus of Nazareth, for some a Prophet, for some a God, for others just an incredibly intelligent being, was 2,000 years ahead of modern science... Or was he? Evidence exists that he was preceded by many other likeminded men who were ahead of their time but what is remarkable is the consistency of their interpretation of things. The precision-engineering behind the pyramids at a time when laser technology did not exist would suggest to me that there have been many people more in tune with our reality or at a more-advanced stage of consciousness throughout the course of human history. Likewise the structures that have been located in the Peruvian Andes among other places. Ultimately my belief is that 'God' is what some refer to as "Infinite Consciousness", the interconnected, interdependent sum of the parts, the Oneness of all things and a Higher Power beyond what we could possibly comprehend - a power we're probably more in sync with in a state of unconsciousness. If that sounds crazy then well and good, I'm a loon! The likes of Jesus were in my view people in an advanced state of evolution, perhaps people with a higher function of the left brain and thus more aware of who we actually are and what our purpose is. Did you know that 95 percent of our brain is not used or understood? What could we do if we could use it all? Could we recreate our reality, itself just an interpretation of the unconscious, conscious whole? Jesus tried to pass on the secrets he'd uncovered in a set of parables and stories that limited man could perhaps understand. Ultimately he used his power for good where others have done the opposite, ultimately he gave us a worthy way of pursuing human progress. Regardless of what you believe the man to be or not to be he still gave us tremendous insight into the workings of the Universe alongside the way we needed to sync our lives with that Universe. His message was simple - love not fear. I still don't see what's wrong with that and whether you's like it or not you are all Christians, you can't just unlearn everything you grew up with no matter how you try. It is ingrained into the very fabric of your being. Just in terms of the Dead Sea Scrolls of course I acknowledge them, in fact I base much of my understanding on the limited information that emerged from the caves in Qumran. The Gospel of Thomas was said to be among them, said to be the direct words of Jesus Himself and to contradict everything about the modern Church (thus its subversion) - whereas our traditional Gospels were written down 400 full years later. Evidence suggests that the Roman Church was and is a political manipulation and usurpation of the true message of Jesus to suit the purposes of indoctrinating and controlling the masses but we can still believe in and recognise the message of Jesus without succumbing to the manipulation. Very difficult to have this conversation without people thinking you're a nuts
ReplyDeleteSean,
ReplyDeleteI most definitely am not a Christian or a Catholic. You depict it as something obligatory. Christianity is just an opinion like all religion. We are either free to hold that oipinion or not. We can claim it but it cannot claim us.
Christianity defines you Anthony no matter if you are atheist or whatever because it is the fundamental value system you grew up with - you can't change that regardless of whether you believe in the stuff it states about 'God' or not. It's something you can't unlearn because it's ingrained. Considering how worthy a human being I at least find you to be then I can't for the like of me find anything wrong with the essence of Christianity, though there's plenty I find abhorrent about organised religion. As for depicting anything as obligatory I don't see that in anything I've said at all, you're free to believe whatever you choose as are others - that includes myself too ya know! It can easily be said of yourself that you foist your atheist interpretation of things on others as somewhat obligatory! At the end of it all it's not about what God we pray to, if any, but how we conduct ourselves in our relationships with others. That's the only 'religion' that counts and that's what I refer to when notioning the message of Jesus
ReplyDeleteSean,
ReplyDeleteChristianity does not define me. It is an opinion I once held and abandoned because it seemed to be unsustainable. People who grow up in a racist environment can rightly claim not to be defined by racism once they reject its tenets. We cannot dispute the existence of a residual effect but most certainly can dispute the claim that it is defining.
I don't foist my atheist interpretation on people. I express my view but don't state to people that it defines them. I don't even expect people to agree with my atheist view.
To state that we are all Christians whether we like it or not seems to me obligatory. It allows us no freedom to choose but imposes an identity on us that we don't want. Whether others like it or not I am simply not a Christian. I don't share the Christian opinion.
It's the residual effect though that is ingrained - your value system is inextricably linked to it regardless of your 'religious' beliefs. As I said before given the man you are I don't see what's wrong with the Christian ethos for in my opinion it made you the man you are and that man is fundamentally a decent man. I fully sympathise and share with your abhorrence at the Church and it's sinister goings on though, I don't see much Christianity in much of that if I'm honest
ReplyDeleteI was watching a programme on Discovery about Black Holes ,( no Antony I am not fixated on Gerry Itwasntme,s arse ) were all things that come into the vicinity of such (just like Gerrys ) disappear and I got to wondering that if all Sean says is true could these mysterious objects be gods arsehole !maybe Sean the follower could put his Einstein hat on and explain.they say Black holes could be a portal to other universe,s, maybe I should ask the priests who bugger the kids they should know .
ReplyDeleteSean,
ReplyDeleteto claim our value system is inextricably linked to something is very different from saying we are defined by it. It says absolutely nothing about the pervasiveness of Christianity within our value system. Our value system is linked to a lot of things such as the Enlightenment, much of which rejected the Christian value system.
The Muslim or Jewish convert who switches from Christianity can hardly be defined as a Christian, regardless of the early formative values.
Nothing I have said is inconsistent with the science of the Universe Marty, but in terms of black holes leading to ANOTHER Universe there is surely no OTHER Universe. Only THE Universe, that contains everything and thus is universal. With my 'Einstein' hat on I'll just quote the great man himself: "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
ReplyDeleteAnthony if you don't believe you are indelibly shaped by your Christian upbringing I will not argue with you on it because we could easily argue all day, and I don't want that at all
ReplyDelete"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems." Einstein
ReplyDeleteIt is one of the first references to be found on the web about him. I never understood Einstein as believing in anything outside of human nature.
Just in time for Einstein,s birthday scientists delivered exciting news,physicists announced that they have identified a particle with characteristics of the elusive Higgs boson the so called "God Particle" Sean I can see the redundancy notices getting typed up even as we speak a cara ...
ReplyDeleteI do not disagree with anything in that Einstein quote, nothing in the slightest. Nowhere in anything Albert Einstein has written does he preclude the existence of a Higher Power, in fact he states repeatedly that it is merely beyond the comprehension of man in his limited human state of frailty to understand the Perfectness of the order of things. Are you disputing that Einstein did not see the world and the Universe as an interconnected whole, a singular true unconscious yet conscious reality? It's seems to me the cornerstone of his thinking. The message of Jesus Christ is entirely consistent with this once we exclude everything the Church taught us to think or believe in our limited state and in order to control us. "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone" - the seen and the unseen, everything that's ever been and ever will be. i believe we need to look past the common assumptions of what this man was talking about and realise that he presented his superior knowledge in a way that could be socially understood in the context of His times. Just as Einstein has done. But effectively there's no difference in the essence of what they say, they are only separated by time and I suppose by interpretation
ReplyDelete"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe - a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble"
ReplyDelete"Let him who has ears to hear, hear; let him who has eyes to see, see"
AM-
ReplyDelete" I most definitely am not a Christian or a Catholic "-
Are you sure-if the UVF put 3 or 4 into your chest the news would say-
'a catholic was shot dead'-
God only knows what the Irish news
would have on their front page-
'the devil is dead'most likely-badly missed by all except the gunmen-
We were brought up to look up at heaven and look down to hell despite the spins of this planet we ride on-heaven and hell are in different realms so they could be to the right or left to us for all we know-if Australia is the arse of the world are we living in the tits of the world-kind of like that thought-
Sean,
ReplyDeleteI think Dr Who was more a formative influence. It helped mould my interest in the 'other' more than Christianity.
I don't like religion or churches. I dislike the way it tries to bamboozle people. But I can live with people holding religious belief. And I think they must be defended against those that would try to suppress that belief. But religious belief must never be prioritised. If someone wants to wear a burka then someone else can wear a Liverpool cap or badge. That is why I am totally opposed to people being allowed to wear Turbans in public service roles.
Remember Sean there were no gods or priests in Star trek !!!
ReplyDeleteMichaelhenry,
ReplyDeletehaven't lost your humour. The Irish News would probably write 'missing feared alive.' !!
Like everywhere else the Irish News has its good and its bad. It is a much better paper than the Irish Times. How the latter has gone off the boil is something that continues to baffle me. I think its name keeps it going rather than its content.
Sean,
ReplyDeleteI have a book on Einstein in the house but have yet to read it. I know little about him other than when he pops up in the odd article here and there. But what I am sure of is that he did not believe in any conscious power or intelligence outside of human nature. He used the term religion as allegory for something else. Science is the best form of human knowledge we have. We learn so much from it. What really do we learn from religion?
My daughter gave me hell two weeks ago for insisting she study religion in school. It was a course on global religions and as my wife says we should know about these things. If the school insisted on her having to take RI she would be out of the school instantly. She howled at me 'you are the last person in the world I expected to tell me I had to learn religion.' We just can't win!!
Anthony its right that your daughter gets to explore religion , its the best way to expose this farce, loving all the contributions but have to sign off here ,heading to the Leitrim hills ,its Maries BIG 60th so we will be partying in the Allingham Bundoran on Sat night pints are on me ...god willing...
ReplyDeleteAnthony without disrespect I suggest you read that book. Of course he believed in a conscious power or intelligence outside of human nature(though not conscious as we understand it in our imperfect human state - thus my reference to the unconscious, conscious whole) - it's a concept that pervades everything the man has written. As I've said previously it is indeed the cornerstone of modern scientific theory in the form of quantum physics. Like myself I believe Einstein suggests at a 'Being' more akin to the 'Demiurge' of Platonian thought than to the traditional assumptions attributed to 'God' by the major monotheistic religions. But they are not incompatible or irreconcileable. As I've said all along the message of the historical Jesus figure is entirely consistent with all of this once you factor out the manipulations of the organised 'Church'. There is no Church in the physical sense according to Jesus, His Church is found in everything that exists, ever has existed and ever will exist - it is inside us and all around us, in everything, everyone, everyhere. The method he used to deliver his interpretations of the Devine Reality was based in my opinion on the tools available to Him at the time - it's all in how you pick it up and interpret it. According to the Thomas Gospel Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God as suggested in other works, which as I've said were written down 400 years after the fact. He was no more a Son of God than you or I, because we are all in the sense I understand it sons of God, but what he was, like other magnificent minds before and since, was a man possessed with a more intuitive capability to interpret the Oneness of all things and to express them in a way that could help others understand without being cast as a total raving lunatic. Thus I find Christianity can still be a very rewarding and relevant 'religion' and certainly if we analyse what the man offered as a way of conducting ourselves a noble, worthy model by which to live our lives
ReplyDeleteI'm signing of on this too before Marty thinks I'm a complete headbanger - wait a minute, too late for that! I also enjoy discussing this as it helps allow me to ration things out in my own head, for make no mistake I have no idea of how the thing operates, I just know that somehow it does. And that someday we return to our original condition - whatever that may be
ReplyDeleteAnthony its right that your daughter gets to explore religion , its the best way to expose this farce, loving all the contributions but have to sign off here ,heading to the Leitrim hills ,its Maries BIG 60th so we will be partying in the Allingham Bundoran on Sat night pints are on me ...god willing...
ReplyDeleteSean,
ReplyDeleteno doubt I shall read it at some point. But from what I have read your suggestion that he believed in a conscious power has been rejected by the scientific commmunity. The religious seem to latch onto some of his allegorical statements to try to beef up their position.
I will cite from an Alternet article, part of which I saved some time ago because I thought it captured his position.
Einstein famously made statements like, "God does not play dice with the universe" that have inspired religious apologists to try to claim him as
their own, but on other occasions, he made it clear that this was nothing but poetic metaphor. He made his views known in letters, writing, for example: "I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." On
another occasion, he wrote, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
Nathan Carter and Mike Denver in town this weekend Marty... Enjoy!
ReplyDeleteIt seems this is how censors go about their dirty work. They write secret letters off to some authority with baseless accusations designed for the purpose of sinking somebody they don’t approve of.
ReplyDeleteShocking. As for the discussion on Einstein as I said before in no way do I find any of it inconsistent with my own beliefs, there is no inconsistency or incompatability and nothing that can't be reconciled
ReplyDeleteWhat really do we learn from religion?
ReplyDeletePersonally Anthony not a lot. I learnt right from wrong, respect, good from bad etc. from my parents. I learnt my three 'R's' in school. I learnt how to put up a tent when I was scout in 18th Belfast. Religion, sweet fcuk all.
At the end of it all it's not about what God we pray to, if any, but how we conduct ourselves in our relationships with others.
That about sums up how we should live Sean. No Gods (false or otherwise), churches, Rabbi's or witch doctors forcing their beliefs, opinions down peoples throat's.
i believe we need to look past the common assumptions of what this man was talking about and realise that he presented his superior knowledge in a way that could be socially understood in the context of His times.
Sean there a school of thought that Jesus (if he actually existed) was a terrorist at least a dissident.
Just as Einstein has done. But effectively there's no difference in the essence of what they say, they are only separated by time and I suppose by interpretation
All depends on what text you read. Some text's have Jesus as a nasty peice of work. Judas (his buddy) was prone to carrying a blade and wouldn't think twice about cutting your neck. You have to throw into the mix that Jesus only became gods son roughly 300 yrs after his susposed death (muslims reckon he was switched on the cross), at a council in Nicea. Basically a few heads got together over some wine and held a secret ballot of sorts. And Jesus was elected to 'god status'. As for Albert, all I know is he decided to split the atom and that let a genie out of the bottle that isn't going back in...
It'sjust,
It is stated, God Made everyone in his own Image. FFS How many Images did he have, so he was part,white/Black/Yellow, one squinted eye, probably blue, the other eye probably very dark,
GEN 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
There had to be a few gods..
GEN 1:27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Sounds like in the next line god is a hermaphrodite. I'm not, so I wasn't made in their/his image. Personally I treat the bible like I do with wikipedia. Nothnig else than a starting point..
Sean Bres,
ReplyDelete"Quantum physics now propounds that the Universe is one large, interconnected mass that vibrates as a living, conscious whole - don't take my word for it, a basic check on the internet would bring this up I'd say. Albert Einstein of world renown was of the same belief."
But this is just guff. What do you mean by "interconnected"? I am not aware of any scientific theory which states that the Universe consists of discrete, separate parts which have no effect on each other. In that sense, every scientific theory propounds "interconnectedness".
Furthermore, what scientific evidence do we have that the Universe is "living" and "conscious"? It doesn't matter whether Albert Einstein believed that or not. For instance, Serge Lang was one of the great mathematicians of the twentieth century, but that didn't mean his rather nutty conspiracy theory about AIDS was true.
Frankie I wouldn't argue against the assertion that Jesus was a 'dissident' - I firmly believe him to have been just that. But I think there's enough common ground between us in what you've said to be in agreement overall. Alfie I think I've said enough on the matter. This is a nice wee video that can explain the thing bitter than me and if you watch it to the end you can see the very simplicity of it all. Modern science is now beginning to confirm what spirituality, philosophy, sages, ancient teachings and psychedelics have been saying for millennia, that the entire Universe is One
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORy9nDsF18
Damn, I am sorry to have missed this.
ReplyDeleteAs an astrophysicist, I have to say...there is much pseudoscience/pop-culture nonsense in there. And that is before I get to the theology of it all. (Admittedly, my theology right now only goes up to the Great Schism, but that is when all the interesting things went on)
For starters:
Modern science is *not* saying the universe is all one, that sounds like people have misunderstood coupling, confinement and coherence.
The universe *is* one (I can't see the multiverse/m-brane stuff as anything other than sleight of hand trickery, worse even than invoking singularities.
But I am tired, and don't really want to go down these paths. At least, not here. Catch me in the pub.
The universe *is* one (I can't see the multiverse/m-brane stuff as anything other than sleight of hand trickery, worse even than invoking singularities.
ReplyDeleteYou have to throw in the parallel universe theory. Which means there are at least several..
Frankie:
ReplyDeleteNo, no, no, no. The parallel universe stuff? Ugh, another mathematical trick, no basis in physical reality.
Any theory that predicts anything, predicts nothing. And that is what that does (and I have read the papers on it, too.)
No parallel universes. There is *only* this one. Black holes as worm holes? Nope. So much misunderstanding of modern cosmology, and even at that, that is a young science, still working itself through.
I still say there's only God in His infinite form, what we might call Devine Fullness, something beyond the limited comprehension of ourselves. Despite our immense wisdom, accumulated over millennia through scientific discovery and philosophical understanding, we remain compromised by the limits and frailties of human perception and reason. There's no shame in that. But even science now, after all its efforts to rationalise the origins of the Universe within the parameters of human understanding, is moving to the inescapable conclusion that there is indeed a Higher Power who's Perfection we can't possibly understand in this condition. Call it what you like but I consider this to be the Presence of God. He is all things, He is all that's ever been and ever will be... "Split a piece of wood and I am there; lift a stone and you will find me"
ReplyDeleteSean,
ReplyDeleteA Swedish guy once said to me that you should treat your religion like you do your genitals: alright for your own private amusement but definitely not to be waved in public!
ReplyDeleteNo, no, no, no. The parallel universe stuff? Ugh, another mathematical trick, no basis in physical reality.
Stray, It's not a trick. Some physicists believe , based on the mathematical democracy principle, 'Any universe that is mathematically possible has an equal possibility of actually existing'.
Sean Bres,
ReplyDelete"But even science now, after all its efforts to rationalise the origins of the Universe within the parameters of human understanding, is moving to the inescapable conclusion that there is indeed a Higher Power who's Perfection we can't possibly understand in this condition."
No offence, but that is a patently false and monumentally daft statement. If you want to draw such a conclusion on the basis of a YouTube video which relies on Chris Martin's maudlin mewling and some hand-wavy pseudoscientific babble about sub-atomic particles being conscious because of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, that is your prerogative. Just don't call that belief scientific or suggest it is the consensus of the professional and academic scientific communities.
Frankie:
ReplyDeleteAlas, it is a trick
'Some physicists believe' - there is the problem, it is unprovable, and used to predict, well, everything. A theory that predicts everything predicts nothing. There is one universe, that is all we have, and all we get. Any string/brane (and those include the parallel universe scenarios) is a nice exercise in maths, but maths is not physics, physics is reality.
'Any universe that is mathematically possible has an equal possibility of actually existing'.
Dear goodness no again. Physicists that say that have spent too much time with topologists. That is such a...non-statement. If you can imagine it, it exists.
There is no need to reach out to other universes to solve the problems in physics, it is...embarrassing. Sure, nice neat maths, but that is it.
Physics (I am not going to say maths) is not a democracy. A weight of people believing something (isn't that part of AM's point?) doesn't make it right.
Panglossian fantasies.
Of course, being a physicist, if you show me one of these other universes, I'll not only recant entirely, but be as excited as a sandboy. That would be awesome. But it isn't going to happen.
Information isn't lost, even inside a black hole. Crikey, so many misconceptions but hey, don't take my word for it. Browse some papers http://arxiv.org/
But the media have a lot to answer for, misinformation about science tends to leak, and stick in peoples' brains, more's the pity.
I should stop now...