I don’t recall having been inside an Orange Hall before. Unless somebody surprises me with something I have completely forgotten about, childhood jumble sales or the like being held in these places, NewtownCunningham would, I am certain, be my first visit to one.

I had been invited there to speak at a seminar as part of the Creating Space for Learning and Sharing Programme, put together by the Community Foundation for Northern Ireland, and financed by the International Fund for Ireland. These days I try to speak at public events as little as possible, much the same for TV appearances. Unfortunately the Boston College affair intervened, compelling me to rise from my self-imposed torpor and go and bat at the crease. I have been told I have a good face for radio so I don’t mind doing that so much.

Since moving South the value of anonymity has made itself felt. There is much to be said for a quiet life, free from rows and controversy: a setting where children can walk the streets or go to school and not be made to feel uncomfortable because their parents don’t vote Sinn Fein.

Seeing no future for the republican project as an answer to the question of partition – and having grown disenchanted by the amount of energy and resources expended by so many in flogging a single dead horse – the need to further comment on republicanism just never seemed as pressing. Even post-Blanket blog writing was rarely carried out with the same enthusiasm or rigour: a certain lackadaisical property had embedded itself in the psyche, and in my mind my own writing had gone off the boil.
 
These days it is a rare occasion that I put in an appearance at much: my dubious logic for being an inveterate funeral evader is that as I won’t be going to theirs because they won’t be going to mine.

But yesterday I did turn up at Newtowncunningham Orange Hall, having been invited to speak there on the topic of independent republicanism.  I arrived after a four hour bus journey the previous evening from Dublin to Letterkenny during which I finished off Midwinter Sacrifice by Mons Kallentoft and then immediately started a review copy of You're Mine Now by Hans Koppel. On the blurb the husband of the central character is called Lukas, whereas in the book he is Magnus. Unproofed but hardly unread.  My passion for Scandinavian crime fiction remains unbounded. The thought of meeting Donegal Orangemen was not going to prevent me from going down my traditional reading route.

That evening in the Donegal home of a friend he and I drank whiskey and chewed the fat on all manner of things, even theology. I told him I hadn’t seen him in years to which he responded I had seen him in Belfast in January. Memory and its vagaries! I no longer trust it as I once did.

I had no sense of trepidation about speaking in an Orange Hall. If they listened, they did; if they hooted and tooted, they would do that too. Either way I would deal with it. Ultimately I anticipated no hostility and was not proved wrong. The hosts were graciously hospitable, brimming with rural charm and bonhomie. They served up a scrumptious breakfast before the business of the day began.

After a brief introduction to the history of Orange Lodge 1063 by two of its members, I took the podium. I gave a 20 minute talk which I had prepared in advance. It was a collection of ideas that I had given expression to over the years but had not pulled together in one piece. I sought to address what I considered to be the redundancy of the republican meta narrative and to outline one, inter alia, independent republican position. It seemed to go down well enough if the question and answer session that followed was anything to go by. I sensed that the Orange Order in Donegal felt it was tolerated rather than accepted as part of the community; that discrimination was insidious.

I was followed by Quincey Dougan, a marching bandsman from Armagh’s Markethill. He explained something of the culture of these bands of which he had been a member for 27 years. He readily acknowledged that he was a loyalist, even an extreme one, although what he had to say was delivered without any of the venom we have come to associate with extreme loyalism. Here was an articulate advocate of loyalism making arguments that republicans and nationalists at least need to hear before they decide to deconstruct and dismiss.

While listening to Quincey I got a phone call from the Irish News, which sort of surprised me as I thought they were not talking to me these days. While I might have problems with policy and procedures at the paper I would never snub its journalists and remain prepared to talk to all at the paper if they talk to me but not down at me. The journalist in question wanted to talk about Priory Hall. While not expecting to be treated fairly by the paper these days, I still spoke to her.  I see no reason not to talk to any particular journalist if they are news gathering. Later I was told I should have given it a miss as they would stitch me up. That remains to be seen. I am more than capable of battling my corner. But I didn’t feel I could stand speaking in an Orange Hall and get all high and mighty when asked to speak to a journalist from a paper I have some as yet unresolved difficulties with.

After feasting on some tasty Orange cuisine for lunch I wondered how it was possible that there could be any slim Orangemen. I was tempted to ask facetiously if we were simply the papists being fattened up for the kill that afternoon by a blood curdling mob screaming ‘for God and Ulster.’ The staff for the day were the essence of hearth and home. 

Tommy McKearney took to the podium immediately after lunch addressing from a different angle the theme of independent republicanism that I had tried to cover in the first session of the morning. His argument while not altogether dissimilar to my own was more upbeat, stressing the plurality of key strands within republicanism; that it was not partition fixated. His emphasis was shaped by his strong affinity with the Left. I wondered to what extent some people were eager to speak rather than listen, if they even followed the news or simply wallowed in their own prejudices. Tommy was told that his party, to which he has never actually belonged, had only 2% of the vote. Some people might not always go back as far as 1690 but they seem to prefer the past to the present.

The last speaker of the day was Gary Moore, a former UDA prisoner. A somewhat pronounced Ballymena accent and an affected shambling demeanour did not disguise a very astute intellect that outlined the work he was doing in the loyalist community, much of it in the area of Ulster Scots. It was easy to detect a disdain in him for big house unionism as he narrated his impoverished upbringing.  One point that struck me was when he spoke of the killing of Robert Bradford and how that had impacted on perceptions. He fully understood how republicans viewed Bradford and his death but 2 elderly women, one of whom was his granny, if I am right, said that ‘if they will kill a pastor they will kill us all.’

The impact of that on a child growing up can only be formative. From that moment on life in an armed loyalist body was the pathway he felt destined to tread along. Republicanism will be enhanced by trying to understand the multiplicity of factors that feed into the motivation behind people embracing loyalism.

Time to leave, when it came, was hopefully only a temporary parting of the ways. I had met too many unionists in my day to think they were all monsters impervious to reason. I am as easy in their company as I am in the company of others I disagree with politically. There are many from the unionist community who happen to be much more liberal in outlook than some I have come across on the nationalist side. No side can claim a monopoly on tolerance and intellectual pluralism.

Apart from the virgin territory of an Orange Hall there was nothing new in it to me. I have been exchanging views with loyalists and unionists for two decades and have spoken to unionist audiences. The Orange were probably less familiar with it than ourselves. They had agreed to welcome two former IRA prisoners into their hall, and then found they got two atheists as well. If it was a bit much for god fearing, devil dodging Ulster Protestants they didn’t show it, bantering and joking with the rest of us. What did strike me perhaps more than anything else was the sense of humble pride they took in their own history: proud of their family and proud of their lodge. Neither brash nor boastful, they were people I could feel absolutely no enmity towards.

On departure, rather than spend four hours on the bus from Donegal I took a lift over to Monaghan Town where I could catch the Letterkenny bus on its return leg to Dublin later in the evening. On our way there I asked Tommy to show me the Omagh street where the effects of armed republicanism were all too poignantly felt in 1998.  I had visited many republican graves in Tyrone with Tommy shortly after my release from prison and curiosity rather than any sense of balance prompted my request on this occasion. Yet, visiting the street where republicans had wreaked so much devastation, I felt that if ever there was a spot to anchor the never again sentiment it was surely there. Perhaps the greatest besmirchment to the memory of the dead of Omagh was that physical force republicanism did not die the very same afternoon.

The events of Newtowncunningham Orange Hall reminded me not to mistake the margins for the centre. Northern society is a wide ocean where each side looks across at the other, seeing the turbulent waters that separate them as being of either an orange or a green hue with each trying to dilute the colour not to its liking. Yesterday’s seminar sends only a small ripple into the vast turbulence, and one that might as easily be forced back to shore come the next tide carrying a surfing flag waver of whatever colour.  Peace there might well be, but it is far from tranquil.

Still, I thought it worth a shot ... of a different type.

Newtowncunningham 1063

I don’t recall having been inside an Orange Hall before. Unless somebody surprises me with something I have completely forgotten about, childhood jumble sales or the like being held in these places, NewtownCunningham would, I am certain, be my first visit to one.

I had been invited there to speak at a seminar as part of the Creating Space for Learning and Sharing Programme, put together by the Community Foundation for Northern Ireland, and financed by the International Fund for Ireland. These days I try to speak at public events as little as possible, much the same for TV appearances. Unfortunately the Boston College affair intervened, compelling me to rise from my self-imposed torpor and go and bat at the crease. I have been told I have a good face for radio so I don’t mind doing that so much.

Since moving South the value of anonymity has made itself felt. There is much to be said for a quiet life, free from rows and controversy: a setting where children can walk the streets or go to school and not be made to feel uncomfortable because their parents don’t vote Sinn Fein.

Seeing no future for the republican project as an answer to the question of partition – and having grown disenchanted by the amount of energy and resources expended by so many in flogging a single dead horse – the need to further comment on republicanism just never seemed as pressing. Even post-Blanket blog writing was rarely carried out with the same enthusiasm or rigour: a certain lackadaisical property had embedded itself in the psyche, and in my mind my own writing had gone off the boil.
 
These days it is a rare occasion that I put in an appearance at much: my dubious logic for being an inveterate funeral evader is that as I won’t be going to theirs because they won’t be going to mine.

But yesterday I did turn up at Newtowncunningham Orange Hall, having been invited to speak there on the topic of independent republicanism.  I arrived after a four hour bus journey the previous evening from Dublin to Letterkenny during which I finished off Midwinter Sacrifice by Mons Kallentoft and then immediately started a review copy of You're Mine Now by Hans Koppel. On the blurb the husband of the central character is called Lukas, whereas in the book he is Magnus. Unproofed but hardly unread.  My passion for Scandinavian crime fiction remains unbounded. The thought of meeting Donegal Orangemen was not going to prevent me from going down my traditional reading route.

That evening in the Donegal home of a friend he and I drank whiskey and chewed the fat on all manner of things, even theology. I told him I hadn’t seen him in years to which he responded I had seen him in Belfast in January. Memory and its vagaries! I no longer trust it as I once did.

I had no sense of trepidation about speaking in an Orange Hall. If they listened, they did; if they hooted and tooted, they would do that too. Either way I would deal with it. Ultimately I anticipated no hostility and was not proved wrong. The hosts were graciously hospitable, brimming with rural charm and bonhomie. They served up a scrumptious breakfast before the business of the day began.

After a brief introduction to the history of Orange Lodge 1063 by two of its members, I took the podium. I gave a 20 minute talk which I had prepared in advance. It was a collection of ideas that I had given expression to over the years but had not pulled together in one piece. I sought to address what I considered to be the redundancy of the republican meta narrative and to outline one, inter alia, independent republican position. It seemed to go down well enough if the question and answer session that followed was anything to go by. I sensed that the Orange Order in Donegal felt it was tolerated rather than accepted as part of the community; that discrimination was insidious.

I was followed by Quincey Dougan, a marching bandsman from Armagh’s Markethill. He explained something of the culture of these bands of which he had been a member for 27 years. He readily acknowledged that he was a loyalist, even an extreme one, although what he had to say was delivered without any of the venom we have come to associate with extreme loyalism. Here was an articulate advocate of loyalism making arguments that republicans and nationalists at least need to hear before they decide to deconstruct and dismiss.

While listening to Quincey I got a phone call from the Irish News, which sort of surprised me as I thought they were not talking to me these days. While I might have problems with policy and procedures at the paper I would never snub its journalists and remain prepared to talk to all at the paper if they talk to me but not down at me. The journalist in question wanted to talk about Priory Hall. While not expecting to be treated fairly by the paper these days, I still spoke to her.  I see no reason not to talk to any particular journalist if they are news gathering. Later I was told I should have given it a miss as they would stitch me up. That remains to be seen. I am more than capable of battling my corner. But I didn’t feel I could stand speaking in an Orange Hall and get all high and mighty when asked to speak to a journalist from a paper I have some as yet unresolved difficulties with.

After feasting on some tasty Orange cuisine for lunch I wondered how it was possible that there could be any slim Orangemen. I was tempted to ask facetiously if we were simply the papists being fattened up for the kill that afternoon by a blood curdling mob screaming ‘for God and Ulster.’ The staff for the day were the essence of hearth and home. 

Tommy McKearney took to the podium immediately after lunch addressing from a different angle the theme of independent republicanism that I had tried to cover in the first session of the morning. His argument while not altogether dissimilar to my own was more upbeat, stressing the plurality of key strands within republicanism; that it was not partition fixated. His emphasis was shaped by his strong affinity with the Left. I wondered to what extent some people were eager to speak rather than listen, if they even followed the news or simply wallowed in their own prejudices. Tommy was told that his party, to which he has never actually belonged, had only 2% of the vote. Some people might not always go back as far as 1690 but they seem to prefer the past to the present.

The last speaker of the day was Gary Moore, a former UDA prisoner. A somewhat pronounced Ballymena accent and an affected shambling demeanour did not disguise a very astute intellect that outlined the work he was doing in the loyalist community, much of it in the area of Ulster Scots. It was easy to detect a disdain in him for big house unionism as he narrated his impoverished upbringing.  One point that struck me was when he spoke of the killing of Robert Bradford and how that had impacted on perceptions. He fully understood how republicans viewed Bradford and his death but 2 elderly women, one of whom was his granny, if I am right, said that ‘if they will kill a pastor they will kill us all.’

The impact of that on a child growing up can only be formative. From that moment on life in an armed loyalist body was the pathway he felt destined to tread along. Republicanism will be enhanced by trying to understand the multiplicity of factors that feed into the motivation behind people embracing loyalism.

Time to leave, when it came, was hopefully only a temporary parting of the ways. I had met too many unionists in my day to think they were all monsters impervious to reason. I am as easy in their company as I am in the company of others I disagree with politically. There are many from the unionist community who happen to be much more liberal in outlook than some I have come across on the nationalist side. No side can claim a monopoly on tolerance and intellectual pluralism.

Apart from the virgin territory of an Orange Hall there was nothing new in it to me. I have been exchanging views with loyalists and unionists for two decades and have spoken to unionist audiences. The Orange were probably less familiar with it than ourselves. They had agreed to welcome two former IRA prisoners into their hall, and then found they got two atheists as well. If it was a bit much for god fearing, devil dodging Ulster Protestants they didn’t show it, bantering and joking with the rest of us. What did strike me perhaps more than anything else was the sense of humble pride they took in their own history: proud of their family and proud of their lodge. Neither brash nor boastful, they were people I could feel absolutely no enmity towards.

On departure, rather than spend four hours on the bus from Donegal I took a lift over to Monaghan Town where I could catch the Letterkenny bus on its return leg to Dublin later in the evening. On our way there I asked Tommy to show me the Omagh street where the effects of armed republicanism were all too poignantly felt in 1998.  I had visited many republican graves in Tyrone with Tommy shortly after my release from prison and curiosity rather than any sense of balance prompted my request on this occasion. Yet, visiting the street where republicans had wreaked so much devastation, I felt that if ever there was a spot to anchor the never again sentiment it was surely there. Perhaps the greatest besmirchment to the memory of the dead of Omagh was that physical force republicanism did not die the very same afternoon.

The events of Newtowncunningham Orange Hall reminded me not to mistake the margins for the centre. Northern society is a wide ocean where each side looks across at the other, seeing the turbulent waters that separate them as being of either an orange or a green hue with each trying to dilute the colour not to its liking. Yesterday’s seminar sends only a small ripple into the vast turbulence, and one that might as easily be forced back to shore come the next tide carrying a surfing flag waver of whatever colour.  Peace there might well be, but it is far from tranquil.

Still, I thought it worth a shot ... of a different type.

69 comments:

  1. AM-

    A happy day you had in that hall-well fed- a bit of talking and not a shiner about-suppose there was none of the devils butter-milk being served-

    " he spoke of the killing of Robert
    Bradford "-

    Bradford was a bitter MP who would have been no Trimble or Donaldson-
    there would be no deal if he was on
    top of the UUP pile-and that's where he was heading to-

    " It was a bit much for God fearing "

    If a person fears God instead of loving him that person will fear/hate/loath every person or thing on earth-

    ReplyDelete
  2. Michaelhenry,

    we had the devil's buttermilk the night before. Good old Bush! Meanwhile I am on the plum poteen tonight!

    The Shinners weere invited but didn't come along.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Very good article and for the OO to invite 2 former IRA prisoners into an Orange hall. Well, that is one great step forward. The OO despite being what it is, does have some very genuine and decent people in it. My Grandmother was in the OO way back in the 40's in Scotland. Yet, she is not sectarian in anyway and never supported the loyalist terror groups. A very strong spirited Presbyterian but never been hateful. I admire her for that. A vast majority of young men joined the UDA / UVF out of fear. Paisley filled them with fear and they felt their community was under attack. They felt they and their families were under threat so they with many others joined up. The conflict sure is not black and white. Very good article indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Anthony,

    I am relived that you have returned safely from 'the belly of the beast'. Extremely interested in your experiences on the day and indeed sorry that I was unable to attend as had been my intention

    ReplyDelete
  5. Thanks Maitiu. I guess it is important to be reflective rather than reactive to issues within loyalism.

    Robert when I was told you hoped to attend but had to change course at the last minute I felt the day darkened a bit early. It was a very good day and hopefully everybody took something away from it. I liked the people there and would readily go back.

    I will upload the talk onto the blog in a few days.

    ReplyDelete
  6. I have always welcomed and enjoyed a well constructed argument and when I visited Newtowncunningham Orange Hall, Anthony McIntyre and Tommy McKearney delivered just that. Its refreshin yet rare when it comes to question time and you have to search frantically for them as any questions you might have asked were comprehensively dealt with during the initial speech. Both men spoke articulately without any of the mundane annd infuriating sounbites and empty cliches that dog and negate so much political narratives today. It occurred to me that these two didn't use soundbites or cliches because they didn't need them - their delivery was well argued and developed by themselves and was thus refreshing and enlightening.

    Just to clarify the point on Robert Bradford. Perception and representation interprets people and events for us. I understand that to Republicans he was an uncompromising and rabid Unionist who demanded internment and was thus their enemy. To my people however, he was a preacher who was shot dead leaving his Advice Centre after giving up his time helping others. The first interpretation lead to his death, the second lead to those who caused his death being regarded as animals who were capable of anything. I suppose our interpretation of people and events moulds and dictates our response to them.

    Maybe frank, honest and open exchanges like that in Newtoncunningham might go a long way in helping all of us UNDERSTAND if not agree with the 'other side' of the divided community that is Northern Ireland.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Gary,

    I thought you made your point on the day very well about Robert Bradford. If in the piece your position did not come over as clearly as it should have the fault was mine rather than yours.

    To understand something is not to approve. In fact an understanding of something can lead to a even stronger disapproval. Sometimes 'understanding' is erroneously equated with sympathising.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Maitiu Connel-

    " My Grandmother was in the OO "

    I though women like All Catholics
    were banned from joining the orange order-any time we see women marching with the orange order they wear the orange sash that their mothers wore with no badges being allowed unlike their male counterparts-those women know their place and they accept being second class-

    ReplyDelete
  9. @ MichealHenry :

    My Grandmother was only in the OO due to her Father having made all his kids join it.She was only a child and it was during the 40's in Scotland. She left it once she turned 12 or so. I make no excuses for the sectarian nature of the OO. Just sharing a personal experience that not everybody whom has been a member is a Catholic hating person. I do not believe there is any place in modern society for the OO as it stands right now. They are outdated and as a Socialist, I am 100% against sectarianism and against imperialism.
    We should also note. The OO is at record low for members. It is dying out as society changes.

    ReplyDelete
  10. It must have been an interesting journey to meet the people who believe it’s their right to trample over their neighbours in order to protect their culture.
    These people will have us believe that they are god fearing and want to uphold their right to practise their religious beliefs by walking were there are not wanted leaving a trail of destruction in their wake and then using GOD as the reason all the mayhem occurred
    It has taken me years to figure out what GOD fearing actually means but I shall try my best
    Recently the son of Bishop Casey was on our televisions and it inspired me about how the whole GOD thing came about …..Here goes
    God (probably a nickname) did exist he was a real person, most likely he was one of many self righteous pompus capitalists who ruled the area were he lived
    He got a very young girl in trouble and had to find a way out so he concocted the Virgin Mary story by threatening and giving her a few quid, he bullies Mary into saying that she just got pregnant and that no man was near her ….. And folks that’s how simple a story it was, remember that this story was being told to people who had little education so it was very easy to make them believe …..Cardinal Brady tried the same avenue of persuasion on two young lads who had been abused by a man who also feared God , but unfortunately for the God fearing people the educated world which the lads grew up in were able to blow his cover
    So it is with great thanks to Bishop Casey and Cardinal Brady I now believe their was a God who was not a figment of some ones imagination but actually a real person who bullied and bought a girl into telling people lies…… and so the myth began

    ReplyDelete
  11. Boyne Rover,

    it will not just be the Orange Men who will want you burned in the fires of hell for that take on god!

    ReplyDelete
  12. Congratulations to everyone who participated in the Newtown cunningham 1063" Its a step forward.



    If my memory serves me correctly, There was a large Orange hall at the bottom of Alliance Avenue in Ardoyne, Which was called , Glenard , in those days, It had another function though, It was the health clinic were mothers went to collect baby food, Orange Juice, Malt etc. Been in it numerous times with my mother, But never knew what it was until I was about 8 year old. Maybe someone remembers this hall, It was facing Etna Drive/Jamaica St.

    ReplyDelete
  13. @ Boyne Rover.

    I am an Atheist. So there is no religious offence in my reply.

    The origin of the Christian faith is a tad more complex than that. The story of Jesus actually predates Jesus by several thousand years.
    The 3 wise men, the virgin birth so forth has been told over and over within different formats for up to 3,000 years before Jesus was claimed to have been born.

    The OO do have some genuine Christian members in it's ranks. I know a few devoted Christians whom are members. On the flip side of that, I know of one OO member whom is an abusive wife beater who has affairs and is a sectarian bigot despite having married a Catholic. You simply can not look at the OO in such a black and white manner and judge every single member.
    I do not support the OO and yes, it is sectarian at the core and yes, they should stick to their own areas for marching. Though there are some decent and peaceful Presbyterians who are members.
    Look at the INLA and IRA for example. Many members of those groups were non sectarian, Brendan Hughes for one. INLA and IRA carried out some horrendous sectarian murders ( Kingsmill for one )but it would be naive to class the entire membership of that mindset. It would be naive to claim the IRSP are all sectarian or SF. Bad apples in every group. Both sides have carried out and let the sectarian problem rumble on for many years now. One of the main reasons i wish to see the DUP and SF removed from power.

    ReplyDelete
  14. AM
    It has taken me near on 30 years to figure that out because everything else just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny , I would love some one to give me a better explanation ,…I shall now go out knocking doors and telling everyone that Superman will save them if they give me money ….

    ReplyDelete
  15. Boyne Rover,

    but as George Carlin pointed out god can do everything but just can't manage money. I know they say Jesus saves but he doesn't save too well. No matter how much money he gets he still needs more.

    ReplyDelete
  16. George Carlin also said " It is all bullshit and it is all bad for you" and I love that quote. It sums up the vast majority of our time on Earth.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Anthony, thank you for engaging with Unionism. As you rightly point out, both sides have their honest elements, even among those who felt it their duty to go to war against their perceived oppressors. Others were/are just ethnic bigots.

    Hopefully our communities have learnt something from our Troubles - but we desperately need to learn a lot more if we are to resolve our national dispute. Honest reflection and dialogue are essential to that.

    I've done a bit publicly when I was a pastor to prisoners in N.I., and ongoing since with my fellow-Unionists.

    Please keep me informed of your output on our situation. i.major@sky.com

    ReplyDelete
  18. These engagements with the Protestant community are important. While the gap may never be bridged it must be understood.

    Republican does not seek a confessional state where one religion has pride of place over another. Secularism is a prerequisite for a society based on equality in every sphere. It guarantees the religious beliefs of all and of none. Religion is a private matter having no rightful place in governance.

    I do not hold to the notion that Protestants are misguided Irishmen/women. This, I believe, is insulting to over one million people on the island. However, we are separated by religion, politics and culture due to our particular historical experiences. The Newtowncunningham meeting helps us to explore and identify these relationships.

    I will finish off with a statement which is bound to raise a few eyebrows. As a Republican, I believe that Protestants must resolve their relationship with the rest of the people on the island in the context of a true national
    democracy.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Alec,

    I think they are beneficial but wonder about their relevance. As I suggested the ripple effect might only be felt at the margins. I spoke there representing only my own views and those of no one else. I doubt very much if the views I expressed there would meet with approval within wider republican circles.

    I think there needs to be a broader republican engagement with unionism at grassroots level if the relevance of these contacts is to be enhanced; republicans who are immersed in republican activism rather than individual independent republicans. You would be much more representative of republican sentiment on the ground so you would understand just how marginal my own perspective is.

    I think for some people learning of this event there is a novelty element because of the venue itself and the fact that former republican prisoners were speaking there.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Mackers,

    I think the old sticky approach to uniting the working class in the north has been an abject failure. Many on the left pander to the protestant workers lest they be accused of sectarianism. This has been the reason for the lefts avoidence of the national question. Engagements with unionism/loyalism, if they are to be honest, must challenging and frank.

    Do you have your speech still? Perhaps yopu should post it as I am sure it contains much food for thought.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Alec,

    I don't think the working class in the North will be united as the Sticks felt. Is the working class ever united? They couldn't unite in England during the miners' strike. I don't think pandering will achieve anything. I think the need for direct exchanges is better. The question is that if republicanism can't move partition what then are republicans to do?

    ReplyDelete
  22. Alec said:
    'Republican does not seek a confessional state where one religion has pride of place over another. Secularism is a prerequisite for a society based on equality in every sphere. It guarantees the religious beliefs of all and of none.'

    Most Protestants/Unionists have a problem believing that. We see Republicanism as an unstable mixture of Catholic Nationalism and Nationalist Socialism. Which would come to the top in a United Ireland is a moot point - for neither would be interested in our British identity or religious liberty.

    If Republicanism is not such a monster, then it will have to show us their love of civil and religious liberty. What we have seen over the past 40 years - murder and intimidation of our community and of Nationalists who offered a constitutional way forward - leaves us very sceptical.

    But, as I said, perhaps we all have learned something from our mistakes.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Anthony,

    A graciously reflective account accompanied by an initially surreal but an altogether pleasing image of you in front of an Orange banner. One I intend to enlarge and place where it can be frequently considered and appreciated.

    'Yesterday’s seminar sends only a small ripple into the vast turbulence,..'

    Don't hide your light under a bushel. Even by the standards set by a cosmopolitan thinker and traveler such as yourself , your visitation, accompanied by Tommy McKearney, to an Orange Hall, if not personally felt is a hugely symbolic and remarkable moment to the onlooker. To my knowledge it is without precedence.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Wolfsbane,

    as a onetime bigot I think it is progress if we all learn something from the conflict. I would hope that my bigoted sentiment has abandoned me or I it. I see bigotry as serving no purpose. It distorts thinking.

    Robert,

    thanks for your comments. I would like it to lead to something better although I have been around long enough not to build my hopes up. But I think it vital that the currently active republicans engage with loyalismand unionism. That would be more meaningful than my visit. I know quite a few of those republicans and they come without the bigotry even if I find myself at odds with them on so much else.

    Having worked with loyalists on The Other View magazine and having had countless discussions with them over the years, I can live with their critique of my stance.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Mackers,
    I know I won't be forgiven for this but when I first looked at the photo I thought it was Adams?

    ReplyDelete
  26. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Nuala,

    that would be a hard one to forgive you for alright!

    ReplyDelete
  28. Apologies for the deleted comment. It is the first time I have deleted anything. I was pissed off at some earlier comments elsewhere but I shouldn't have been pointing fingers.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Mickeybroy was spot on about Bradford, to call him a pastor, well its no wonder so many of the flock were so quick to murder the innocent,he was a bigot plain and simple and evil in mind ,this bonhomie displayed by the oo in NewtownCunningham is in my honest opinion a role playing exercise in ensuring that those eejits in EU and the Irish govt keep the money rolling in, austerity what fucking austerity ?, these gentle ,peaceful souls are the same thugs who battered a garda senseless in Clontibert,who attempted to murder a psni/ruc officer in North Belfast,the notion that these people wouldnt harm a fly belies the reality,they are the real subversives of recent Irish history,temperance my arse ,democratic! who are ya trying to kid? that they feel tolerated is a disgrace ,they and organisations like them have perpetuated to much misery here. to even be allowed to remain in existence is an insult to any modern democracy, we will never escape from the bigotry of the past that people like orangeman Bradford inhabited until these dinosaurs are extinct.had this organisation the upperhand in the country as it did have you can bet your arse would never have seen the inside of that hall Anthony .they make the Irish News chapel look almost reasonable.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Alec...

    I do not hold to the notion that Protestants are misguided Irishmen/women. This, I believe, is insulting to over one million people on the island.

    But thats what they are Alec, I don't think its an insult. Maybe the wording could be changed but they are Irish. Now the PUL-ers can deny it until they are blue in the face but they are Irish by the simple fact they were born on the Island of Ireland.

    Maitiu is from the PUL side of the oxymorons but is as Irish as you and me. Which is probably down to the education his parents gave him. That make's three. David Ervine is on record calling himself Irish. Gusty Spence could speak fluent Irish (I can't)..

    A while back on the TPQ a poster called Stephen Ferguson stated culturally he is Irish but politically he is British. I'd hazzard a guess there are lots more like Stephen than admit it, simply misguided.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Frankie said: 'Now the PUL-ers can deny it until they are blue in the face but they are Irish by the simple fact they were born on the Island of Ireland.'

    That would make Scots and Welsh Nats. British because they were born on the island of Britain.

    And the Irish north and south British, because they were born in the British Isles.

    No,land does not determine national identity. It's a family-feeling, usually based on blood relationship, but also on occasion by voluntary enlistment by a sympathetic stranger.

    I'm sure most of us know Ulster Protestants of British lineage who are happy to be identified as Irish today. As too Ulster Catholics of Gaelic lineage who are happy to be identified as British.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Wolfsbane,

    Being born the British Isles has nothing to do with national identidy. That (British Isle's) is nothing else than a geographical term.

    As too Ulster Catholics of Gaelic lineage who are happy to be identified as British.

    Personally I don't know any Ulster Catholics who happily identify as being British. Not saying there isn't.

    No,land does not determine national identity. It's a family-feeling, usually based on blood relationship, but also on occasion by voluntary enlistment by a sympathetic stranger.

    Land has a lot to help determine national ID. The place were you grew up and whatever you where exposed too plays a part too. Nothing to do with 'feeling' and for 'sympathetic stangers', sounds like bending the rules a tad.

    That would make Scots and Welsh Nats. British because they were born on the island of Britain.

    Exactly Wolfsbane. They are just that British by birth. When a Welsh person applies for a British passport, it doesn't say United Kingdom & Wales. No amount of window dressing or moving goal posts is going to change the simple fact the PUL-ers aren't as British as Finchley. They are Irish by birth as much as they hate to admit it...

    There is nothing to feel embarrassed about admiting it. Come out of the closet and shout.. I'm irish and proud you'll feel liberated after, trust me.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Hi, Frankie.

    The Scots and Welsh Nats will be very disappointed by your reasoning. I thought Irish Nats were supportive of their Nat friends across the water!

    Yes, the British Isles is a geographical term. So to is Ireland. The latter has two political states existing on it, and the former has only one - but possibly three in the foreseeable future. Ireland might also change to one state.

    All that proves is that nationality is not determined by geography.

    I might one day be happy to identify with a new Irish nation - but nothing I've experienced or read of in history gives me confidence that Irish Republicanism can be trusted to deliver anything other than a Catholic Nationalist or Nationalist Socialist Gaelic hegemony.

    I'd be interested in what assurances you can offer PULs. Even on this site I've read anti-PUL comments worthy of Der Stürmer's contempt for the Jews!

    ReplyDelete

  34. I'd be interested in what assurances you can offer PULs. Even on this site I've read anti-PUL comments worthy of Der Stürmer's contempt for the Jews!


    I've also read lots of 'nasty' things posted about the leadership of SF/PRM. I reckon the contempt shown here and elsewhere about the jews is kinda mixed up. I believe people simply inchange the words Jews & Israel because they are inter-changeable. I don't think it's directed at the jewish people per say. Certain groups, Zionists etc. fair enough. But the wee Rabbi going to his Synagouge on a Saturday, I doubt the regular posters don't have contempt for him or his followers.

    I might one day be happy to identify with a new Irish nation

    So the seed had been planted. Hang around the TPQ a while, let it germinate. You'll soon discover that you are more Irish than you think..

    but nothing I've experienced or read of in history gives me confidence that Irish Republicanism can be trusted to deliver anything other than a Catholic Nationalist or Nationalist Socialist Gaelic hegemony....

    Personally i think religion is as out dated as flared jeans and platform shoes. For a simple, quick answer on Irishness in 2013 fast foward this video until 4hrs 39min 35seconds and listen carefully to the end. Another great documentary about Ireland is the Robert Kee 13 parter.

    You talk about (sounds as if) you are afraid of 'nationalist socialism'..Why? If you get time, watch this 10 parter on the 1916 Rising . There is nothing to be afraid about with socialism or nationalism.

    What assurances can you give your female neighbours on the other side of the oxymorons the same fate that happened to Gemma McGrath wont happen to them?

    ReplyDelete

  35. The Scots and Welsh Nats will be very disappointed by your reasoning. I thought Irish Nats were supportive of their Nat friends across the water!


    Wolsbane I've always believed the Scot are simply the Irish who couldn't swim. If you want a fuller explanation why the Welsh are in fact British by brith, orgin etc.. read here.

    First paragrah goes like this in part.. One group came to Ireland, and another came to Britain. The ones who came to Ireland were called Gaelic, Goidelic or Q-Celtic. The ones who came to Britain were called Brythonic, or P-Celtic. The Gaels or Q-Celts lived in Ireland, and later conquered Scotland and the Isle of Man.

    Basically the Welsh version of 'Celticdom' settled on an island called Britain..Thats not saying there isn't a Welsh culture. I don't know what date you want to cut off or either of us to go back to. Simple fact is you are born on the island of Ireland and to the outside world you are a simply another Paddy like the rest of us.
    Wolfsbane, if you think call me Dave in N° 10 acually gives to fcuks about the people of the 6 counties, think again. One of the first things he'll do (if Scotland break away) is move what ever nuclear subs stationed in Scottish waters to either Belffast, Derry or maybe on the Ards Pennisual somewhere. It would kinda make 'us' sitting ducks.

    Wolfsbane, this nonsense at Twaddel. What is wrong with GARC's proposal and make the Crumlin Road a parade free zone for everyone? Why can't or wont the Orange Order simply walk down to the Woodvale Road/Ballgomartin Road jct, walk across Woodvale park, back on to the Ballygomartin Road continue to Forth River Road (which runs paraelle to the Crumlin Road) and exit at Fourth River Drive...They'll end up at Ballysillian Presby Chruch. And the 50,000+ it costs to police could be spent elsewhere..Creating jobs ( thats a joke the fools have put on ice 5,000 full time jobs), employing nurses, teachers...building a play park for kids..the list is endless.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Frankie you could have mentioned those of Cornish descent,these proud people have their own flag ,their language is related to Breton ,and Welsh,and they certainly do not regard themselves as British, mind you neither does the majority of Bradford or other English cities

    ReplyDelete
  37. Marty,

    If you ask 'most' people of Cornish descent they'll say they are Cornish & British. Same as the north western tip of France. They'll claim a 'dual nationality' of sorts too.

    Same as our long lost cousins on the Iberain peninsula. They'll by and large admit to being Spanish or Portuguese. They wont forget their culture, history.

    Thr PUL-ers on the other hand refuse point blank to accept their Irishness. But some of them were happy to apply for Irish passports last year in order to have cheap uni fees.

    This continuous increase in Irish passport applications is expected to rise even more across the entire community as it was revealed recently that Irish passport holders in Northern Ireland are exempt from paying fees in Scottish universities.

    Wolfsbane, the new passport incorporates joint Irish-Scottish (Ulster Scots) gaelic, history, culture. Deffo makes it more inclusive than the British passport where the 6 county people are nothing else than an annex on it.

    ReplyDelete
  38. How I define identity is very tricky. I do not believe it is as black and white as Irish or British. Gusty Spence and David Ervine were both classing themselves as Irish. Irish first but British citizens.
    Since being a teenager and a member of the military cadet force, I marched every year to remember those who had fought and died in the world wars. My Great Uncles in Scotland all fought in the wars. My family in Ireland, well some of them fought in the World War in the Royal Irish. Thousands from these streets in Belfast and beyond all gave their life and I will remember that. I do not support the modern wars and I am not in support of fighting for the elites wars. I was also raised in the PUL community but I am very anti monarchy despite having to stand for God save the queen every Friday morning in school. I am also an Atheist so do not class myself a Protestant. I feel the term Protestant is just an easy sectarian label for most. Not one person I grew up with who called themselves a " prod " went to church. They keep using Protestant to define a persons beliefs. I am Democratic Socialist and for right now, I wish to remain part of the UK. However, I am Irish. I celebrate an Irish identity and culture. I speak a certain level of Irish. My Grandfathers side of the family were all from Tyrone and Armagh. He married a Scottish woman and that is how I was raised Presbyterian.
    I was raised on an island called Ireland and in turn to that, I call myself Irish. I have been to Wales, Scotland and England and every single time was called Irish. Nobody ever once classed me as British. I lived for a good few years in America and was called Irish. I had to explain how I was even a British citizen during my green card process.
    England to me, is a different island with a different accent with a rather different culture and it is alien to me. For me, going to England is no different than heading to France. The English government do not do what is best for us. They have tried to get rid of Ireland on several occasions. We are not aloud to vote for the prime minister. We had no say in England and we get thrown the scraps of the table. That really does not make me feel British and equal.
    If anything, I feel really ashamed at the current riotous situations. The English are sitting back watching thugs wrapped in Union flags and they are wondering what the bleeding heck they are doing with their flag.
    We need Unionism to take lead of these elements and start working for the community. The DUP are not the answer, they are the problem. I want the Unionist parties to achieve something for the young. Our of all of my friends, only 3 of us have ever gone on to University. The rest left with nothing and have been unemployed for many years.


    ReplyDelete
  39. Maitiu,
    I am Democratic Socialist and for right now, I wish to remain part of the UK.

    England to me, is a different island with a different accent with a rather different culture and it is alien to me. For me, going to England is no different than heading to France. The English government do not do what is best for us.

    Why do you want to remain under British rule if you know they don't give two fiddlers fcuks about you? And you have no connection with the majority of it's people??
    We know its not for the Queen...

    ReplyDelete
  40. Frankie said:
    'Wolfsbane, this nonsense at Twaddel.'

    I agree.

    'What is wrong with GARC's proposal and make the Crumlin Road a parade free zone for everyone? Why can't or wont the Orange Order simply walk down to the Woodvale Road/Ballgomartin Road jct, walk across Woodvale park, back on to the Ballygomartin Road continue to Forth River Road (which runs paraelle to the Crumlin Road) and exit at Fourth River Drive...They'll end up at Ballysillian Presby Chruch. And the 50,000+ it costs to police could be spent elsewhere..Creating jobs ( thats a joke the fools have put on ice 5,000 full time jobs), employing nurses, teachers...building a play park for kids..the list is endless.'

    I've a lot of sympathy with that. As I do with not walking down the Garvaghy Road - there is a perfectly good alternative.

    But the mentality driving most Orangemen is the fear that Republicanism is determined to eradicate their culture and identity. They see that any 'give' by them will just move them along that road, and so every change has to be resisted - no matter how reasonable in itself.

    Both the residents and marchers have genuine concerns. I've no doubt that SF deliberately set out to bring conflict over Loyal marches - in fact, when they first announced their program to do so back in the '90s I went to speak to some of them personally in West Belfast. I urged them not to go for confrontation at the time, but to build on the peace process that had begun to give hope to both communities.

    They obviously took the view that Unionism could be brought down by such confrontations - discredited and maybe even provoked into widespread violence and assault on the police and army.

    Or maybe it was just to keep their hold-outs happy that they were still sticking it to the Prods?

    I hold no sympathy for SF, for they know exactly what they are playing at. I hold little sympathy for the Orange, yet just a bit, for they are stupid as well as arrogant.

    Respect is the key to a happy future for Ulster. Defensiveness hinders the Orange/Unionist people from seeing their duty here. They need to step back, do what's right by their Nationalist neighbours, and celebrate their culture where its welcome.

    Nationalism/Republicanism needs to sort itself out on the matter too. Do they want Ulster/Ireland cleansed from PUL culture and identity? Or are they looking at how to respect their Unionist neighbours?

    ReplyDelete
  41. Frankie said:
    'Wolfsbane, the new passport incorporates joint Irish-Scottish (Ulster Scots) gaelic, history, culture. Deffo makes it more inclusive than the British passport where the 6 county people are nothing else than an annex on it.'

    That's a misreading of the text: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one U.K. - England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.

    Not that I make an issue of it, just to stop others from doing so in error.

    BTW, many PULs get Irish Passports, and will gladly accept donations of Irish Euros if you have any to spare. A bit of harmless, if cynical, use of what's handy.

    The more priggish among us might consider it a contamination - but is it really a big deal? I mean, it's not a sincere indication of our nationality, any more than a Nationalist getting a British passport might be.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Wolfsbane

    They said they will talk to Ardoyne Residents and Reps in 2014, "IF THEY ARE ALLOWED TO PARADE UP THE CRUMLIN TO FINISH OFF THE PARADE WHICH WAS BANNED" I don't call that debate, I call it an Ultimatum. Nothing stopping the two sides getting their heads together and resolving this once and for all.

    ReplyDelete
  43. itsjustmacker said:

    'They said they will talk to Ardoyne Residents and Reps in 2014, "IF THEY ARE ALLOWED TO PARADE UP THE CRUMLIN TO FINISH OFF THE PARADE WHICH WAS BANNED" I don't call that debate, I call it an Ultimatum. Nothing stopping the two sides getting their heads together and resolving this once and for all.'

    I agree.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Frankie said:
    'I reckon the contempt shown here and elsewhere about the jews is kinda mixed up.'

    I wasn't referring to Republican contempt for the Jews. I was showing the similarity between how some Republicans speak of PULs and how the German National Socialists spoke of the Jews. The gut racism is the same.


    I had said: 'I might one day be happy to identify with a new Irish nation'

    Frankie replied: 'So the seed had been planted. Hang around the TPQ a while, let it germinate. You'll soon discover that you are more Irish than you think..'

    I doubt it. It may work out I become Irish as an Italian emigrating to America becomes an American and gives allegiance to his new nation - but it would need a BIG change in Irish society and culture for me to fit into that.

    And the point is, even then, like the Italian, I would be exchanging my nationality rather than 'discovering' it.

    'Personally i think religion is as out dated as flared jeans and platform shoes.'

    Your atheist beliefs would not be a problem for me - unless you followed the past practice of atheistic Socialism and attempted to purge the country of religion. That is one of the reasons I don't trust the Nationalist Socialist wing of Republicanism. History shows us what they are like in power - Brown or Red. The Green type are unlikely to be any better.

    'For a simple, quick answer on Irishness in 2013 fast foward this video until 4hrs 39min 35seconds and listen carefully to the end. Another great documentary about Ireland is the Robert Kee 13 parter.'

    What was I supposed to learn from that? That the Gaels fought the English and were eventually defeated? That their desire to have their nation independent came to a crisis point in the 20thC? I knew all that. I knew too that my forefathers were a mixture of the English and Scots who settled in Ulster and were not assimiliated by the Gaels. Two nations, one land.

    BTW, I think it a sad misnomer for the Irish to have talked of being a 'nation once again'. They always were a nation, no matter if independent or part of the larger British group of nations. The Scots will not become a nation if they vote for independence next year - they will only become independent. They always have been a nation.

    'You talk about (sounds as if) you are afraid of 'nationalist socialism'..Why?'

    History shows us how it works.

    'If you get time, watch this 10 parter on the 1916 Rising . There is nothing to be afraid about with socialism or nationalism.'

    The concentration camps, gulags, re-education camps, and mass graves of Europe and Asia tell us otherwise. Maybe some of the men of 1916 had good intentions - but Catholic Nationalism in Yugoslavia and its Socialist Nationalism in Germany showed how it works in practice. And the Socialism that gave rise to the Darkley Mission Hall massacre tells us the soviets of Ireland would be no different than those of the USSR.

    Does the history of the Irish Free State and subsequent Republic not show us the idealism of some of the men of '16 was very naive? How come a Catholic Nationalist state was constructed by DeValera and his Republican comrades? Surely they had every opportunity to show us PULs how mistaken we were to fear our Irish neighbours?

    The proof of the pudding..

    'What assurances can you give your female neighbours on the other side of the oxymorons the same fate that happened to Gemma McGrath wont happen to them?'

    I would give no assurances that the Loyalist 'socialists' or 'nationalists' would be any better than the Republican brand.

    May God deliver Ulster - and Ireland - from both types.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Wolfsbane

    "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

    I would say you are reading it wrong. I have been through this point several times. Is it not logical that The words "Northern Ireland" are seperate from "The United Kingdom of Great Britain", Everyone knows that Scotland , Wales are part of the UK because it is an Island, Just Like Ireland is an Island.

    ReplyDelete
  46. The inclusion of Ulster Scots in the new Irish passports unless stated as a local dialect can or should be viewed as nothing more than a disgrace, this made up language diminishes the beautiful gaeilge which is spoken and read worldwide, Ulster Scots does not have a single book to its name and as stated its a dup invention to stall and stymie the promotion of the Irish language ,those who produced this farce should be charged with treason,put against a wall and shot,or dun in as they say in the tang o Ulster Scot.

    ReplyDelete
  47. @ Frankie.

    To answer the question you asked.

    I suppose I wish to stay in the UK for now, due to the fact that no party has put forth a legitimate paper to the community on exactly how it would transition. Even the sheer realistic benefits have not been put out into the community. So I am approaching it from a perspective of not knowing what we would be joining exactly.
    I have read the articles from RNU and I have read Eire Nua from RSF. Neither of those parties have any power to actually put forth into action. PSF, I do not even consider them a party that wants a UI. They seem very comfortable in British power. So who would bring a UI about? Just far to many " ifs and buts" for me to even consider a UI. I am not against the idea and I do believe it will happen, eventually.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I was showing the similarity between how some Republicans speak of PULs and how the German National Socialists spoke of the Jews. The gut racism is the same.

    Or how Ian Paisley called the pope the whore of Rome, certain PUL-ers told catholics they couldn't apply for jobs in years gone by. I agree Wolfsbane, the hatered is the same. And doesn't advance any cause or belief.

    And the point is, even then, like the Italian, I would be exchanging my nationality rather than 'discovering' it.

    That's just it, you unlike an Italian wouldn't be exchanging anything. You would if you took time to look at the history of Ireland start to discover that.

    Your atheist beliefs would not be a problem for me - unless you followed the past practice of atheistic Socialism and attempted to purge the country of religion.

    Between the two of us, I couldn't care less what place anyone goes to at weekends to meet with friends. Personally I prefer meeting up in a bar, watching a match, playing pool and if the gods roll the dice my way, I'll have breakfast with a female on Sunday morning. Just keep religion out of politics. The two don't work well together.

    What was I supposed to learn from that?

    When you get time to watch the 13 parter by Robert kee you'll discover just how much in common both sides of the oxymorons have. As for the part I asked you to FF to, I put the wrong link up (I put Robert kee twice<---blonde moment)..

    Here's the link FF to 4hrs 50mins 24seconds. Ireland is changing and Irishness is starting to morph..Kinda like languages evolving.

    I knew too that my forefathers were a mixture of the English and Scots

    If you read the article on the orgins of 'Cetlicdom' you'd discover that at least one of your forefathers had probably Celtic-Gaelic blood running through his veins..Being of Scottish origin etc...Not exactly an Anglo-Saxon, WASP or even close. Chances are you have some gaelic DNA floating around your system somewhere.

    The concentration camps, gulags, re-education camps, and mass graves of Europe and Asia tell us otherwise. Maybe some of the men of 1916 had good intentions - but Catholic Nationalism in Yugoslavia and its Socialist Nationalism in Germany showed how it works in practice.

    The concentration camps etc told me totalitarianism/dictatorships don't work..Not that socialism can't. I've a good friend from Croatia and back in the mid 90's when the Balkans was top of every news agenda, I asked him "What was it like under Tito?"..He told me, 80% of what he done, he got right, the other 20% is questionable. But by and large they were treated fairly and had a decent standard of living. And Nazi Germany may have used the word socialism, but we both know it was anything but.

    Does the history of the Irish Free State and subsequent Republic not show us the idealism of some of the men of '16 was very naive?

    No, if you take the time to watch the documentary on the 1916 rising and read the proclomation you find they (leadership of the rising) were a head of their times.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Maitiu,

    I take it for yourself, it is kinda like 'better the devil you know', even though the devil in this case doesn't care what happens to you?

    As for RNU, RSF, the 1916 societies, Erigi etc ( I read recently that the 32's are siding/joining the societies, which would make them a big headache for SF IMO)... I kinda agree at the minute they don't have the political clout to change very much. But a closer look at the noises coming out of nationalist/republican areas they are all gaining more support day by day at SF's expense. Remember from small acorns.

    Even today on the Nolan show Danny Morrison admits SF are trying to stop the leakage at grass roots level (check Nolans podcast after 10.30am, first item on his show).. In repsonse to a piece Danny wrote on Eamon Mallies blog “I hope I am wrong but I suspect that the Assembly could collapse”

    ReplyDelete
  50. @ Frankie.

    My family and I are moving to Dublin area after I complete me degree. Vast majority of the global IT leaders are based there. The ROI's 15% corporation tax levels are a lot more desirable to foreign companies than 25% up in " Norn Iron " and no riots to worry about. I am looking forward to the move.

    On wards to the parties you mentioned. I believe the IRSP and RSF will never get anywhere. History of those parties shows us just that. Eirigi I would say would be a major contender against SF.
    Read in todays Irish News that the RSF and 32CSM have broke away, yet again and have formed another grouping.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Maitiu,


    You would need around 3,884.84€ (3,240.61£) in Dublin to maintain
    the same standard of life that you can have with 2,400.00£ in Belfast
    (assuming you rent in both cities).


    According to here. And the crime rate is higher too.

    I agree that the smaller republcian parties wont make much in roads today but who knows what tomorrow holds. SF's (IMO) will get a rude awaking in the next few years with local & national elections on the horizon.. From reading posts here and other places, there is alot of very intelligent and astute people within the 'dissident' camp. And they seem to be simply biding their time and waiting for the right opportunity to take SF on. Probably like what Tommy Mckearney told Sean Bres, something like 'In order to re-build a sound republican base, you have to up root the very foundations and re-start at ground zero..' That doesn't mean disbanding republican core beliefs, simply going back to basics about what it is to be a republican and this time learning from past mistakes.

    ReplyDelete
  52. itsjustmacker said:
    'I would say you are reading it wrong. I have been through this point several times. Is it not logical that The words "Northern Ireland" are seperate from "The United Kingdom of Great Britain", Everyone knows that Scotland , Wales are part of the UK because it is an Island, Just Like Ireland is an Island.'

    That is a logical possibility of the language - but the actual meaning is revealed by the history of the U.K.

    The 'united' refers to the 'union' of the four countries, by three Acts of Union: with Wales (1536), Scotland (1707), and Ireland (1800). One united kingdom, called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (afterwards Northern Ireland).

    ReplyDelete
  53. frankie said:
    'That's just it, you unlike an Italian wouldn't be exchanging anything. You would if you took time to look at the history of Ireland start to discover that.'

    I did - and I do not see myself as Irish, any more than Republicans born in N.I. see themselves as British. We should not try to impose national identities on others.

    'When you get time to watch the 13 parter by Robert kee you'll discover just how much in common both sides of the oxymorons have.'

    Sure we have much in common. Especially those of us who live as neighbours in N.I. But I have as much or more in common with my English, Welsh and Scottish friends/contacts than I do with my friends/contacts in the Republic. Not just because some of my ancestors came from Yorkshire, but that is part of it.

    'As for the part I asked you to FF to, I put the wrong link up (I put Robert kee twice<---blonde moment)..
    Here's the link FF to 4hrs 50mins 24seconds. Ireland is changing and Irishness is starting to morph..Kinda like languages evolving.'

    Yes, I have already viewed that great doc. Very encouraging. I met Mary McAleese at the President's house, at a reception she gave for the Orange. I'm not a member or even supporter of the Orange, but one of their thinkers invited me to go with him and I gladly accepted. She and the other Mary have been progressive forces in our peace process.

    What the doc. and Mary said about the changed definition of Irish - no longer necessary to be Gaelic and Catholic - is fine for the Irish, but it does not mean the PULs are Irish. Mary might regard them as Irish, but it does not make them so if they demur.

    'If you read the article on the orgins of 'Cetlicdom' you'd discover that at least one of your forefathers had probably Celtic-Gaelic blood running through his veins..Being of Scottish origin etc...Not exactly an Anglo-Saxon, WASP or even close. Chances are you have some gaelic DNA floating around your system somewhere.'

    I would be surprised if I hadn't! Just as much as I would if Gerry Adams had not a big chunk of Anglo Saxon DNA in him. We are inter-related in these British Isles.

    But that does not make Gerry a Brit or me Irish. We have our primary identities.

    ReplyDelete
  54. frankie said;
    'The concentration camps etc told me totalitarianism/dictatorships don't work..Not that socialism can't.'

    Great. But the socialism I've often heard from Republicans seems very totalitarian to me!

    'I've a good friend from Croatia and back in the mid 90's when the Balkans was top of every news agenda, I asked him "What was it like under Tito?"..He told me, 80% of what he done, he got right, the other 20% is questionable. But by and large they were treated fairly and had a decent standard of living.'

    Tito's socialism - uniting Croat, Serb and Bosnian - was certainly better than the Nationalist totalitarianism that preceded and followed it. Croat Catholic Nationalism carried out even worse ethnic cleansing in WWII than Serbian Orthodox Nationalism/Socialist did in the 1990s.

    I had the privilege of serving under a man who had been a British commando seconded to Tito and the partisans. He saw the reality of ethnic/religious civil war.

    'And Nazi Germany may have used the word socialism, but we both know it was anything but.'

    Socialism has many forms, as does Christianity. Some more authentic than others.

    I had said: 'Does the history of the Irish Free State and subsequent Republic not show us the idealism of some of the men of '16 was very naive?'

    Frankie said:
    'No, if you take the time to watch the documentary on the 1916 rising and read the proclomation you find they (leadership of the rising) were a head of their times.'

    That's my point: the proclamation may have expressed their ideals, but their successors' actions later revealed their real thoughts. If so many democrats and lovers of Protestant British neighbours existed, how come Ireland became a Catholic Nationalist state???

    Was it not that the Unionists had got it right when they said, 'Home rule is Rome Rule'? That they knew the majority of the Irish people were not up to pluralism, but were Catholic Gaelic Nationalists at heart?

    Hopefully all that has changed - but I'm still hearing things from Republicans that sound very hostile to my people.

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  55. @ Frankie.

    We are looking at living up to an hours drive outside Dublin. We want a more country side living. As for career wise. I am a student of Computer Physics and not many jobs here in the north that cater to my choice. In Dublin there is a few. Primarily career related and just wishing to get our kids away from the mess up here.
    Sometimes we wonder why we even left America.

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  56. Maitiu,
    Did you learn/cover any pentesting in your degree? Or have you ever 'dabbled' in it?

    Wolfsbane,

    I've a problem why you keep trying to put religious slants on things..Every now and then you mention the C word (be it catholic or christian)..Being Irish doesn't mean 'Republican catholics' or vice versa. You can be an Irish protestant an Irish Jew, or an Irish Muslim even an Irish Jedi knight. The link is Irish. It is as simple as that.

    how come Ireland became a Catholic Nationalist state

    Dunno, I reckon St Patrick played a hand in the catholic part, throw into the mix the Brtish tried to beat the Irishness out of the Irish by all means for centuries. Then the British tried to stop the Irish practice their religion...

    Was it not that the Unionists had got it right when they said, 'Home rule is Rome Rule'? That they knew the majority of the Irish people were not up to pluralism, but were Catholic Gaelic Nationalists at heart?

    N'importe quoi. You do know the founding fathers of Irish Republicanism weren't catholic? And what they wanted many moons ago was unite catholic, protestant and dissenter. If you take time to watch the 10 part documentary on the 1916 rising, you'd discover loads about the educations and backgrounds of the leaders of the rising. Watch it. One of your grandfathers was Scottish, I bet he called himeslf either a celt or Gael..probably both.

    I had the privilege of serving under a man who had been a British commando seconded to Tito and the partisans. He saw the reality of ethnic/religious civil war.

    I'm not sure how you look back on the troubles..But I've heard it called exactly that, an ethnic/religious war. I'm sure a lot of posters & readers of the TPQ have seen the reality of war too.

    Hopefully all that has changed - but I'm still hearing things from Republicans that sound very hostile to my people.

    I'm not a republican, I am Irish, like you.. I'm reading about what is it to be a republican. Doesn't mean I'll become one. I know I don't like PSF's brand.

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  57. Wolfsbane Said;

    "The 'united' refers to the 'union' of the four countries, by three Acts of Union: with Wales (1536), Scotland (1707), and Ireland (1800). One united kingdom, called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (afterwards Northern Ireland)."

    That's my Point.

    The question you have to ask yourself is, "WHY DOES IT SAY", Northern Ireland as a seperate entity?.

    Why didn't they call it,

    "United Kingdom of Great Britain and , Scotland , Wales , and , Northern Ireland!.

    I hope you see the point which I am Making.

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  58. @ Frankie

    Network security is a large part of my studies. I have been known to " dabble " in my younger years. Let's say, I am a huge supporter of Anonymous and peoples right to information. Besides, if the vast majority of people knew exactly how easy it is to gain access to their home networks and even national industries. They would never send any personal info via TCP/IP. Ever. I always advise family and friends to sit their network behind an encrypted VPN. AES Blowfish 128bit is all that is required.

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  59. itsjustmacker said:
    'The question you have to ask yourself is, "WHY DOES IT SAY", Northern Ireland as a seperate entity?.
    Why didn't they call it,
    "United Kingdom of Great Britain and , Scotland , Wales , and , Northern Ireland!.'

    Because 'Great Britain' is NOT England. It is England, Scotland and Wales. So the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is in long-hand 'The United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland'.

    N.I. is a separate entity from Great Britain, but part of the United Kingdom.

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  60. Maitiu,

    My jury is out on Anonymous. Thats down to certain people not hacking ethically..

    I agree with Snowden, Manning etc, but the people who DDOS because they can. They piss the 32A"s of me.

    I'm 100% with you Maitiu, most people don't know how vunerable they are. With out a great deal of know how, most if not all posters could learn how to 'piggy back' their neighbour, do a basic 'man in the middle'...whatever before midnight tonight.

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  61. Wolfsbane,

    Then why don't they simply call it a UK passport without the annex of NI?

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  62. Frankie said:
    'I've a problem why you keep trying to put religious slants on things..Every now and then you mention the C word (be it catholic or christian)..Being Irish doesn't mean 'Republican catholics' or vice versa. You can be an Irish protestant an Irish Jew, or an Irish Muslim even an Irish Jedi knight. The link is Irish. It is as simple as that.'

    Sure, but it is a plain fact that Catholic and Protestant were big factors in the definition of what being Irish meant.

    It was perhaps the most important factor in determining Protestant resistance to the proposal for a United Ireland - the fear that Catholicism would govern the new authorities and penalise the Protestant people.

    I asked: 'how come Ireland became a Catholic Nationalist state?'

    Frankie replied:
    'Dunno, I reckon St Patrick played a hand in the catholic part, throw into the mix the Brtish tried to beat the Irishness out of the Irish by all means for centuries. Then the British tried to stop the Irish practice their religion...'

    So you accept that a non-confessional United Ireland was not on offer, just a Catholic 'boots on the other foot now' Ireland?

    An understandable revenge cycle, but hardly one any sensible Protestant/Unionist should agree to accept. Surely any reconciliation in Ireland has to be based on mutual respect and toleration, a letting go of past grievances and building a new agreed future?

    I had said:'Was it not that the Unionists had got it right when they said, 'Home rule is Rome Rule'? That they knew the majority of the Irish people were not up to pluralism, but were Catholic Gaelic Nationalists at heart?'

    Frankie replied:
    'N'importe quoi. You do know the founding fathers of Irish Republicanism weren't catholic?'

    Of course. But Tone's vision was not what actually developed when the Gaels were given the opportunity to show how it worked.

    And no doubt Mitchell and others would have been bitterly disappointed by the Catholic Gaelic state that their successors set up.

    'And what they wanted many moons ago was unite catholic, protestant and dissenter. If you take time to watch the 10 part documentary on the 1916 rising, you'd discover loads about the educations and backgrounds of the leaders of the rising. Watch it.'

    I've already said I won't try to second guess the real intentions of the leaders - I'll take them at face value. That's why I said they were very naive. The proof of the Irish pudding was in the eating. NOT a united 'catholic, protestant and dissenter', but a Catholic Gaelic state.

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  63. Frankie said:
    'One of your grandfathers was Scottish, I bet he called himeslf either a celt or Gael..probably both.'

    I doubt it: 'Lowland Scots (Scottish Gaelic: Sassenachs), also simply Lowlanders, are a predominantly Germanic ethnic group in Scotland, descended primarily from the Anglo-Saxons of Northumbria, the Normans and to a lesser degree the Britons of Strathclyde. They speak variations of the English language, known locally as the Scots language (also Lallans). The group arrived from what is now known as Jutland, conquering the area in 7th century, forming the northern part of Northumbria, known as Bernica. They also moved to Ireland during the 16th century, where they are known as Ulster-Scots and through the British Empire many other places, particularly the American South, England, Canada and Australia. They are the largest segment of people who are called Scottish people.'
    http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Lowland_Scots

    'I'm not sure how you look back on the troubles..But I've heard it called exactly that, an ethnic/religious war. I'm sure a lot of posters & readers of the TPQ have seen the reality of war too.'

    Indeed.

    'I'm not a republican,'

    My apologies. I assumed you were.

    'I am Irish,'

    Fine.

    'like you..'

    So you're not Irish, but British! ;0)

    'I'm reading about what is it to be a republican. Doesn't mean I'll become one. I know I don't like PSF's brand.'

    OK. It's good to be informed. We all need to improve our knowledge of our neighbours and ourselves.

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts here - it certainly helps me appreciate where others are coming from.

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  64. Frankie said:
    'Then why don't they simply call it a UK passport without the annex of NI?'

    Yes, they could keep it short by saying UK rather than the UK of GB&NI. But I suppose the full phrase sounds grander.

    And fits in with the whole speil: ''Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State requests and requires in the name of Her Majesty all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary.'

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  65. wolfsbane,

    They also moved to Ireland during the 16th century,

    Can you understand that. They came to Ireland. Not the irish went there. Again, take the time to watch the Robert kee documentary, forget about the 1916 rising, Carson etc. for a while and simply watch it. I found it a good starting point.

    You don't have to apologise to me. Growing up in Ardoyne during the troubles, I never classed myself as anything else other than a Belfast Rock-a-Billy. I knew Punks who were excatly that, Punks. Not loyalist, catholic, republican or protestant. We were more intrested in going to Kens record store in Smithfied and seeing what records came in, than pay attention to what SF or other were saying . But we were Irish.

    Sure, but it is a plain fact that Catholic and Protestant were big factors in the definition of what being Irish meant.

    No it doesn't. It played a massive roll in seperating us and Britain manipulated for her own greed.

    But Tone's vision was not what actually developed when the Gaels were given the opportunity to show how it worked.

    Tone, McCracken, Pearse, Conolly, Brendan Hughes..if people listened to what they believed they were fighting and dying for and was allowed to be put into practise, two things at least would have happened. 1, a lot less people would have died. 2, The mess the economy is in, it wouldn't be as bad. Take 30mins out of your life Wolfsbane and read the proculamation and then look what a capitalist society has led to today. You called the leaders of the 1916 rising naive..anything but.

    The proof of the Irish pudding was in the eating. NOT a united 'catholic, protestant and dissenter', but a Catholic Gaelic state.

    Is the reason you have a fear of admiting you are irish because of the C word or being Irish per say. If it's religion, I personally don't think any republican will give much thought to what place you meet your friends during the weekend (or anyday) to rejoice in who ever.

    Don't be afraid of admiting you are Irish, Wolf. The saying 'grass isn't alway's greener..', flip side is, 'sometimes it is and the lawn is easier to mow'. I've mentioned to you earlier, several former loyalist paramiltaries who accepted they where Irish to various degree's..Some even learnt Irish. some even loved Irish music...

    Surely any reconciliation in Ireland has to be based on mutual respect and toleration, a letting go of past grievances and building a new agreed future?

    They (the fools on the hill) can't agree on anything. Why is a whole differnt question. Try to get a book called 'End game in Ireland' by Eamonn Mallie and David McKittrick. There is part that goes like this more or less ' Just after SF, Unionst's etc..met with Mandela he said "The Irish are very nice people, they just aren't nice with each other'..That was mid 1990's..And a lot of the same faces still aren't very nice with each on the hill.

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  66. frankie said:
    'Can you understand that. They came to Ireland. Not the irish went there. Again, take the time to watch the Robert kee documentary, forget about the 1916 rising, Carson etc. for a while and simply watch it. I found it a good starting point.'

    I'm familiar with all that. It's just your deduction from the facts that I question. My ancestors did not become Irish by occupying Ireland - Ireland became British by the British plantation. Or at least British and Irish. When the Irish had the numbers and circumstances to force independence, the bit they took stopped being British, as did most of those who made up the new country.

    Those who formed Northern Ireland remained as before - British or Irish, according to their self-identification. Two nations, one land.

    'You don't have to apologise to me. Growing up in Ardoyne during the troubles, I never classed myself as anything else other than a Belfast Rock-a-Billy. I knew Punks who were excatly that, Punks. Not loyalist, catholic, republican or protestant. We were more intrested in going to Kens record store in Smithfied and seeing what records came in, than pay attention to what SF or other were saying . But we were Irish.'

    You were a bit of an exception, then. I can only speak as a country boy, and I accept things could be different in the big urban areas. For example, I never knowingly met a socialist until the late '60s.

    I grew up on the shores of Lough Neagh, in a mostly Catholic area, in the 50s and 60s. Most of my mates were Catholics. I saw first-hand the primacy of the priest in that community - it didn't concern me, but I marked it well that I would not fancy living in a country controlled by the RCC.

    I had said: 'Sure, but it is a plain fact that Catholic and Protestant were big factors in the definition of what being Irish meant.'

    Frankie replied: 'No it doesn't. It played a massive roll in seperating us and Britain manipulated for her own greed.'

    Britain did not invent the power of the priest among my mates and their parents. The court of final appeal in Catholic Ulster was the priest. Many times I heard neighbour disputes ending on the threat that one side would 'tell the priest'.

    Sure, governments will use any leverage, exploit any difference, to see their will established. But Britain had been keen to get rid of Ulster in the early 20thC, and they never have been committed to us since.

    'Tone, McCracken, Pearse, Conolly, Brendan Hughes..if people listened to what they believed they were fighting and dying for and was allowed to be put into practise,'

    Why did the Gaels not put it into practice when they did have the opportunity? Did Vinegar Hill not show how unable they were to embrace a truly pluralist Ireland? Did the Free State and later Republic not prove the same? Why do idealists like yourself always think that one last push, one more purge, etc. will result in a different mindset than what the pushing and purging has already done? I'd a friend in the 80s who was a member of the Irish Communist Party, and he excused the blatant failure of 'Socialist' states like the USSR, China, etc. on that basis - given more time, the utopia would arrive! All the murder and oppression carried out by these regimes was the fault of the West, and would vanish as the spirit of socialism took firmer root.

    'two things at least would have happened. 1, a lot less people would have died. 2, The mess the economy is in, it wouldn't be as bad.'

    Really? Do you think a successful '98 would have produced a tranquil, free society? That the Gael and Planter would have evolved into non-sectarian socialists? Even that such socialists would have been any more successful than those in Revolutionary France or elsewhere since? That a successful '16 would have led to a non-sectarian socialist state? Or that it would have escaped the radical socialism of the Soviets?

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  67. Frankie said:
    'Take 30mins out of your life Wolfsbane and read the proculamation and then look what a capitalist society has led to today. You called the leaders of the 1916 rising naive..anything but.'

    My point - why did their successors not go for a non-sectarian socialist state when they had the chance - or even a plain non-sectarian state? Answer: because they were not non-sectarian or socialists at heart.

    Would the leaders of '16 who were executed have proved any different than those who survived to lead independent Ireland? We have to give them the benefit of the doubt - but we must face the facts about Republicanism in action rather than theory.

    'Is the reason you have a fear of admiting you are irish because of the C word or being Irish per say. If it's religion, I personally don't think any republican will give much thought to what place you meet your friends during the weekend (or anyday) to rejoice in who ever.'

    Well, that was always their theory - but as I've pointed out, never their practice. Why should we expect different today?

    And even in their theory, a Republican in the early '70s told me the Catholic Church should determine the moral laws of a United Ireland, as it was the majority religion.

    I appreciate that many Republicans were not subservient to the RCC, and may well have broken its power had they taken control. But the PUL people would have been very foolish to stake their freedom on that possibility. For example, was it not socialists who carried out the Darkley Mission Hall massacre? Whatever of their freedom from Catholicism, they certainly exhibited a hated of Protestantism.

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  68. Frankie said:
    'Don't be afraid of admiting you are Irish, Wolf.'

    If I was Irish, I'd admit it. Nothing wrong with being Irish, or British, or Polish, etc.

    'I've mentioned to you earlier, several former loyalist paramiltaries who accepted they where Irish to various degree's..Some even learnt Irish. some even loved Irish music...'

    Everyone's free to develop their own sense of identity. I have a Christian friend, same background as myself, who calls himself Irish on the basis of being born in Ireland. Several others who do the same - but on various definitions of what Irish means. Their definitions would equally make many Republicans British.

    But I'm careful with my tag, for I see that such broad usage of the term leads to misunderstanding. It has led Republicans to think all they had to do was force the British Government to withdraw from NI and we all would be content Irishmen. The reality is that we would be plunged into a bitter Lebanon-style war. The 'Irish' in the Loyalist would evaporate in the heat of defending their Britishness.

    'They (the fools on the hill) can't agree on anything. Why is a whole differnt question.'

    They have a difficult task - holding the support of their 'unreconstructed' members while advancing a shared and successful NI.

    'Try to get a book called 'End game in Ireland' by Eamonn Mallie and David McKittrick. There is part that goes like this more or less ' Just after SF, Unionst's etc..met with Mandela he said "The Irish are very nice people, they just aren't nice with each other'..That was mid 1990's..And a lot of the same faces still aren't very nice with each on the hill.'

    Nearly all of them know the reality: a shared NI solution or no solution. All the contrary talk from the leaders is smoke - the plan for success goes on. Can they succeed? Yes, with a growing NI identity, a commitment to each other above that to the southern Irish or Mainland British, then it can work.

    Can they fail? Yes, many pits to fall into, many winds to blow us onto the rocks. The most dangerous is the idea that Britishness can be eroded and a UI will result; and its converse, that Britishness must be bowed to in every place or we are lost.

    I'm a Christian, Frankie, so my first loyalty is to Christ and His people. But Christians are to love their nation too, and then all men.

    I don't have a problem with any nation - and I don't justify the sins of my own nation.

    I hope my patriotism will lead to the good of my nation and my neighbour's nation. Where their interests clash, I hold we should seek for a mutually beneficial solution, not force a defeat on either. The solutions tried and promoted by each side up to the Belfast Agreement required the defeat of one side. Our Troubles were the result, and were a pointer to a greater disaster that awaited. Republicanism, Loyalism, Nationalism and Unionism - and the British and Irish Governments - recognised that and stepped back.

    At least, that is my analysis of the situation.

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  69. Just heard on radio Ulster the GAA in Newtowncunningham have offered the local OO lodge the use of their hall after the lodges hall was burnt down...

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