Wednesday, January 9, 2013

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Ulster Loyalism, Flag Protests & the failure of zero sum politics

Tonight The Pensive Quill carries an article by Guest Writer Sean Matthews

The continuing opposition by loyalists to the decision by Belfast City Council to limit the flying of the Union Jack (bringing it in line with other council chambers) is a product of a deeply sectarian colonial settlement that smothers the importance of class.  The disturbances were pretty predicable in the context of summer riots over parading, intra unionist rivalry and rising anger in traditional protestant working class communities over shortage of jobs, housing and perceived gains made by the ‘nationalist’ community.  The mass inflammatory leafleting by unionist parties in the days leading up to the council vote served to heighten fears in a constituency which is easily inflamed and mobilised in defence of the realm. This is not the cause of the disturbances; but the logical conclusion of capitalist decay and opportunist politicians battling for the hearts and minds of protestant working class communities - disenchanted and disillusioned with the peace dividends promised over 10 years ago.

Since December, roads continue to be sporadically blocked across the North for short periods of time along with pockets of rioting, while Alliance Party offices were attacked and in some cases burned and council chambers stormed - representing a challenge for the PSNI. The attempted storming of Belfast City Hall on the night of the vote was the fuse which lit the media fire as sections of the liberal press, business and political class lined up to condemn the violence as bad for business and the brand image of the new era. Incidentally, although reactionary by nature, these protests serve as a timely reminder that our ruling class only take notice when we actually move beyond the ritual art of ‘peaceful protest' and engage in civil disobedience and 'violence'.

Jason Walsh, a journalist based in Dublin, hit the nail on the head writing:

press coverage has focused on outrage among the middle classes and the threat that the violence poses to traders and wider investment in the ‘New Northern Ireland’. Neither of these claims is inaccurate, but both are beside the point. The most revealing thing about the riots is that they show the vacuity of identity politics – on both sides of the sectarian divide. 

Walsh added:

Smug, middle-class Unionists, republicans and liberals who can’t understand why there is all this kerfuffle over a flag would do well to ponder just who it was that transformed a territorial conflict into a cultural one and what the endgame was actually supposed to be.(1)

Flag Smokescreen?

Predictably various shades of republicans have cashed in on the flag riots in a triumphalist bemusing fashion, full of irony and humour - much of which has been documented on social media sites such as Facebook and Youtube. Rather than seeking to understand the underlying root causes of the disturbances, and their failure to make their politics relevant to the protestant working class beyond sound bites of ‘national liberation’ and references to the United Irishmen, their focus has been on the low level of policing and arrests in comparison to republican protests.

As anarchists we recognize the fact that imperialism has no progressive role to play in Ireland or anywhere else and has left a partisan legacy of collusion, torture and state sponsored terrorism.  At the same time we are not surprised by the nature of state repression. It is only natural that the ruling class and its armed wing will utilise all instruments of repression at its disposal against any perceived threat to ‘national security’ and its monopoly over the use of violence. In Ireland, republicanism has been traditionally cast as the main threat and ‘bogeyman’, while in other countries it has been anarchists and so forth.

However, anti anarchist scaremongering is never far away from the media discourse even in the wee north. In a sensationalised headline in the Newtownabbey Times in December, following rioting in the staunchly loyalist estate of Mossley Hill and Rathcoole, the paper led off with ‘anarchists hell-bent on damage and destruction’.  According to The South and East Antrim Community Federation spokesman, Tommy Kirkham, a former independent loyalist councillor who previously represented the UDA-linked Ulster Political Research Group, described claims that known paramilitaries were behind the trouble as “convenient”, adding that young people intent on anti-social behaviour and “anarchists hell-bent on damage and destruction” were responsible for the disturbances.(2)

While it would be a welcome development if there was a growing class struggle anarchist presence in Newtownabbey, these allegations are ridiculous and a complete distortion of reality as anarchism is opposed to all forms of nationalism and patriotism. We, the working class have no business getting involved in the petty squabbles over flags between political parties who we have nothing in common with, as we need to get rid of the entire capitalist system.

While acknowledging the legacy of partisan policing, the reality is it is much easier to police, gather intelligence and make arrests at a peaceful sit down protest with the annual ritual of rioting which takes places in a small densely populated and confined community like Ardoyne than at illegal blockades and rolling demonstrations across the North. We also need to take into account that policing tactics have considerably evolved in the North over the last 30 years (in conjunction with policing ‘reform’) as the police tend to gather intelligence and make arrests (due to the higher threat level) after the event rather than using ‘snatch squads’ as in other parts of Europe.  This is not an attempt to justify and legitimize state policing but to merely understand the PSNI facilitation of illegal protests and other dynamics at work which underpin some degree of policing in the 21st century.

Beneath the media spectacle and claims by Sinn Fein that this is a victory for the nationalist community is the ugly reality of a pacification zero-sum process which has strengthened and entrenched sectarianism, as symbols and emblems are used as cultural weapons to both hide internal class contradictions and instil fear. It is worth referring to Rudolf Rocker on the subject of nationalism and patriotism:

we must not forget that we are always dealing with the organised selfishness of privileged minorities which hide behind the skirts of the nation, hide behind the credulity of the masses. We speak of national interests, national capital, national spheres of interest, national honour, and national spirit; but we forget that behind all this there are hidden merely the selfish interests of power-loving politicians and money-loving business men for whom the nation is a convenient cover to hide their personal greed and their schemes for political power from the eyes of the world.

For the Provisional movement this limiting of the number of days the Union Jack flies outside Belfast City Hall is in reality a compromise rather than any real victory. This strategy is underpinned by a movement which is more concerned about playing the green card, ‘identity politics’ and the ‘parity of esteem’ rather than any notion of radical transformation and class unity.  By embarking along this path,  Sinn Fein have only served to alienate an important constituency which it needs for its long-term aim of an Ireland of equals and national reconciliation. In doing so republicanism and its most progressive currents is dealt a further blow being perceived as merely being a form of ‘catholic nationalism.’

The reactionary nature of Ulster Loyalism

For Ulster loyalism and unionism this is another PR disaster but one which a community that perceives itself to be under siege will have little empathy for. The riots bring to focus growing mistrust and alienation between ‘working class loyalism’ and ‘big-house’ unionism which has often been an ambiguous relationship (despite uniting when perceived to be under threat by the 'other’)  that republicans ignore at their own peril. (3) It also provides a useful ‘cause’ for rival and divided loyalists to rally under as their credibility and image has been undermined in protestant working class areas by years of internal turmoil and conflict.

As expected, unionist politicians exploited the fears and tension of the flags debate, scapegoating the Alliance party and standing shoulder to shoulder with demonstrators on rallies and picket lines, while far-right elements facilitated by elements of loyalism are more than happy to fill the vacuum in loyalist heartlands. Former BNP members Paul Golding and Jim Dowson (with past offences for loyalist gun-running) who are now members of the British First party were guest speakers at rallies organised by a group called the United Protestant Voice outside the City Hall. While links between loyalist paramilitaries and fascists is nothing new, this latest development sets a dangerous precedent for anti-fascists and progressive forces.

Anyone with any lingering notions in the ‘socialist’ Progressive Unionist Party (PUP) should take note as they seek to outgun and out-British each other in a manner and style similar to the English Defence League. Paradoxically they agreed a number of years ago to fly the flag on certain designated days.  Despite the organisers promising that tens of thousands will take to the streets in villages and towns across the North nothing has appeared on this scale and they have been largely confined to 'unionist' working class areas. An indication of the steady decline from the days of the Drumcree standoff but this will provide little comfort for those living in interface areas.

Unlike Irish Republicanism, with all its faults, which at times developed significant ’left strands’’ only to be recuperated by green nationalism and the logic of ‘labour must wait’, Ulster Loyalism has once against revealed its true chauvinistic colours and reactionary sectarian agenda while conveniently ignoring the reality that any future Irish unity depends on its consent. It is a flexible counter-revolutionary reaction in all its forms which provides willing foot soldiers and henchmen for the ruling class and the far-right- a threat to any progressive movement that espouses real freedom and social equality.

However, despite claims by some shades of republicanism, variants of unionism are not simply dupes of British imperialism and at times exert their own agenda which can be in conflict with the crown on occasions.  But it would be foolish to assume any progressive outcome of this and history tells us this. In this dangerous vacuum the wider left and labour movement needs to step up to the challenge and provide a principled alternative which provides a gateway to the politics of class and a better society from the ashes of sectarianism and imperialism.

It is worth dispelling some of the myths and fears over housing and deprivation that provide the wider backdrop to the continuing loyalist ‘grievances’’ which sections of the media help to legitimise without challenging and exposing.

The Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency (NISRA) produced The Northern Ireland Multiple Deprivation Measure 2010, and it is viewed as ‘the official measure of spatial deprivation in Northern Ireland.’ It collates data relating to the status of individuals residing in every one of the 582 wards in Northern Ireland, using these figures to rank the status of each ward in relation to a range of domains including Income, Employment, Health Deprivation and Disability as well as Education, Skills and Training amongst others.

Whilst separate rankings exist for each domain, an accumulative overall multiple deprivation measure ranking is also provided. 14 of the 20 most deprived wards are predominantly catholic, including 8 of the most deprived 10 wards The Peace Monitoring Report 2012 made reference to the facts regarding greater catholic levels of deprivation, an enduring feature of northern Irish life, when it reported that “the proportion of people who are in low-income households is much higher among Catholics (26%) than among Protestants (16%).” The figures outlined above collectively point to a conclusion that, across the range of poverty and deprivation indicators, it is not sustainable to suggest that working class protestant communities are losing out to their catholic neighbours, who continue to predominate the range of lists ranking the most deprived communities in the State. (4)

The anarchist alternative

As we enter 2013 it is worth remembering that the Union Jack will continue to fly over Belfast City Hall for 17 days of the year despite hundreds of protests and road blockades taking place since mid-December. The flag controversy and cries of 'no surrender' are the tip of the iceberg illustrating the continuing reality of a sectarian statelet propped up by Westminster which Northern Ireland Tourist Board cannot simply brand away. In a wider context, the 'flag riots' help to gloss over class conflict, providing a useful distraction for an unprecedented austerity programme of privatisation, cuts to public services, workplace/welfare rights which were won for by struggle over the years. The British state with their junior partners at Stormont are plunging working class communities into deeper levels of poverty, deprivation, rising cost of living and job insecurity - continuing the savage neo-liberal agenda of successive governments. Our response needs to be pro-active and aggressive because being right is not enough in a society built on protecting the wealth and privilege of the ruling class.

Quite clearly the future for any sustained working class resistance to these measures across the sectarian divide is quite bleak as long as we remain captive to the politics of fear and scaremongering that is promoted and fostered by those in power for their own selfish and strategic interests.

However there is hope, which does not lie in putting our faith in sectarian politicians and any so-called vanguard. The question we need to ask ourselves is not what flag we want to live under but what type of society do we want. By winning small battles in the workplace and community such as the Visteon workers struggle in 2009 we can make small steps that build confidence, a culture of self-organisation and direct action that can steadily erode what may divide us. Yes, the task is a great one. But of course, we only want the world.

For those of us on the progressive left and wider labour movement it is important that we expose and exacerbate these contradictions from a revolutionary class perspective, in theory and practice, while providing a space to build an alternative movement to the rotten politics of zero-sum which at the end of the day only benefits our common enemy the ruling class. 

Anarchists are "proud of being internationalists." We seek "the end of all oppression and of all exploitation," and so aim:

to awaken a consciousness of the antagonism of interests between dominators and dominated, between exploiters and workers, and to develop the class struggle inside each country, and the solidarity among all workers across the frontiers, as against any prejudice and any passion of either race or nationality -  Errico Malatesta

References:

1) http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/13161
2) http://www.newtownabbeytoday.co.uk/news/anarchists-hell-bent-on-damage-a...
3) ‘Protestant Socialists’? Ulster Loyalism and Working-class Politics: 1969-1974 (http://www.ucc.ie/en/history/scrinium/FrenettUlster.pdf)
4) http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/10/03/dispelling-the-myths-sustaining-loya...
      

145 comments :

michaelhenry said...

Its the flag protests-which are doomed to failure-20 loyalists protested outside the European Sinn Fein office this evening in the waterside-Derry city for an hour before they moved of after they heard that Willie Fraser and Fair had called of their Dublin protest on saturday-the orange have run away you know-

larry hughes said...

Loyalist attack on Alliance expoes the 'common-worker' myth not that it's required in my book. Failure to face the huns down has perpetuated the shit here.

The RUC telling the wee skitters wreckin the place to stop coz they need to focus on dissident republicans confirms all to me. Great to see the wee hun bastards all getting criminal records though. Pray to heaven it goes on a long time yet.

SF playing the green card suits me regardless of the state of Gerry's hole. They'll be getting my vote next time out.

There ye are Michaelhenry... yer elected AGAIN!!

hodgie said...

unfortunately the corruption of politics in the 6 counties ensures that any disillusion with social policies and economic inequality can be chanelled into sectarian whataboutery.

the religious divide is real and nobody out there is really challenging it, instead we have endless antagonism over symbolism and other shit that doesn't put food on the table.

so long as we remain in a politically regressive state the political elite are secured in their positions of privelege and power over us, and we are condemned to endure the crucifying repetitions of the past.

itsjustmacker said...

Michaelhenry:

"the orange have run away you know"

I have to disagree with you and ask you a question, "Why would a majority run away".

I read into the flag protests as a struggle for power within unionism, you know ,and I, including others know, Those running the protest and violence are top dogs in UDA/UVF. But I have a very strong feeling that a top unionist is hiding behind a cloak waiting for the outcome of these protests, and, that outcome in my opinion will be that those whom they call nationalists (Middle of the roaders) in east and other parts of Belfast will lose their seats and loyalist will win them, thus having a majority on Belfast City council and overturning the flag issue.

larry hughes said...

Saw wee willie frazer for the first time last night on tv. any chance he has a greatest speeches dvd?

itsjustmacker said...

Larry:

If you want a laugh just click on this you tube link and select.

Hilarious.
willie frazer

marty said...

Fionnula O Connor in her weekly column in the Irish News headlined it with the legend "Loyalists need help to enter new world" I say "loyalists need help to enter the REAL world. I am one of those who have commented on fb about the chief cuntsnotable, feeble attempts to police these violent demonstrations in comparison to his forces eagerness to remove peaceful nationalist protesters of the streets and into the courts, confiscating all or any video footage that may help them in their determined efforts to secure convictions, their will never be any unification of the communities here around issues of mutual interest when sections of this community are willingly led by gangsters and bigoted clerics and politicians and these are backed up as witnessed by the actions of those same politicians and the psni/ruc,the rule divide and conquer alongside the orange card is being played here willingly by the unionst working class there can and will not be any change in their attitudes while they are treated as spoilt brats, when they eventually are down to the level as the rest of us they may then realise that the real world does not revolve around them and we may then see them engage in working class issues.

James said...

Great read. Spot on. For a minute there I was thinking someone is copying my exam paper.lol. I agree 100% with that you know. Now, I really do not know a whole lot about anarchism, only from the label presented via the media and other social conformity channels. I will investigate more. So my response is,what will the working class do now on the nationalist side, if the loyalist believe they have been left behind. I can assure them, the working class nationalists have been left behind by their so called political elite "leadership" in SF. The difference is that SF have people like Larry and Michael Henry in the bag. Which brings me nicely to you Larry. After reading your first comment, I asked myself did he actually read what the writer wrote or is he just one of them pop up sectarian bloggers. It looks like the "confidence trick of tribal ignorance" again.

Niall said...

Seán,
Why the hell is it that every damn ‘would be’ revolutionary wants to unite the working class who in fact unconsciously mostly aspire to be middle-class, couldn’t give a rats arse about anarchism, socialism or any ism including capitalism and why is this great unification perceived as a solution to all our woes? Never understood how uniting the working class or the replacement of one group of megalomaniacs with another could resolve so much……just look at the once ‘great revolutionaries’ of the working class today who once led the fight against British imperialism…..they’re in government with British imperialism!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry but completely unrealistic Seán

frankie said...

itsjustmackers,

But I have a very strong feeling that a top unionist is hiding behind a cloak waiting for the outcome of these protests, and, that outcome in my opinion will be that those whom they call nationalists (Middle of the roaders) in east and other parts of Belfast will lose their seats and loyalist will win them, thus having a majority on Belfast City council and overturning the flag issue.




Go to Paddy Power and place a 10er on it. I think the same. Next election, Naomi is out of a job.

Belfast Bookworm said...

I've spent the last four weeks rationalising the protests/riots; there are massive socio economic reasons, they feel disempowered, they feel polarised etc etc but then I even began to bore myself.

The riots happened because the loyalist community wanted to show who was boss and remind the dirty Fenians that they are still the people & throw the dummy out to get their own way.. Then they got a quare gunk when it went pear shaped.

Makes no matter whether the flag hangs all day every day and upside down - it doesn't change the fact that it's still a British statelet - no matter what the shinners try and tell us, but I'm sick sore and tired of trying to 'bring working class loyalists onside'.

I'm fed up trying to show them they've more in common with me than some inbred monarchy in England so I'm not gonna bother anymore. They don't want to hear it. They just want to hate me and rule me - possibly even kill me if they could get away with it.

And yes, I laughed at the videos and jokes. They were hilarious. I wasn't laughing 'at the poor working class people' because I'm one, I was laughing at the hilarity and cleverness of some of the videos. I hope there's more.

Those so called working class loyalists should just be thankful they're not taigs.. Then they'd be really up against it.

Belfast Bookworm said...

ItsjustMacker; I think Naoimi Long will walk that seat in east Belfast again. She's come through this guns blazing and to me is coming across more credible every day.

I think a lot of people's faith in her will have grown during this. The uvf dropped 40,000 leaflets prior to the flag vote and if a fraction of that number turned out to protest it's a generous estimate. Many of those who perhaps didn't like the flag coming down are now utterly sickened by the riots in their own communities. Can't see them voting for anyone other than Long next time round.

AM said...

Sean,

this was posted last night without being attributed to you. It was corrected today. Apologies.

itsjustmacker said...

Belfast Bookworm.

"I think Naoimi Long will walk that seat in east Belfast again"

I hope your right, it would be a big let down for those organising the rioting, I think a lot of bully tactics will come into it from UDA/UVF on voters though. I know a lot of people in east Belfast are sick of the rioting, but they are all afraid to say anything in case they get a dundering or windows put it, in my view, if they do vote naomi back in again, plenty of houses will be visited by the henchemen to see who voted for whom.

Belfast Bookworm said...

Itsjustmacker; aye, you're right in that respect no doubt - when all else fails bring out the knuckle draggers.

But realistically, theyre spitting fire about the utter inefficiency and incompetence of their mla's and who could blame them? And could they even field anyone new for a council election? Jim Wilson? Willie Frazer? Billy Hutchinson?

They can't get their electorate out onto the streets and they can't geographically manage their votes - a case in point is the fiasco in north Belfast when they made the mother of all f*** ups in a bid to keep Gerry Kelly out.

They have learned nothing and never will it seems.

michaelhenry said...

itsjustmacker-

" I read into the flag protests as a struggle for power within unionism "

You are 100 per cent right but there are to many loyal splits to worry the DUP that much- the PUPs or fraser or even the TUV are no match for the unionist top dog in elections-some think that they will eat into the DUP vote but the unionist people are not that hungry yet-maybe when the talk turns into action about the border poll some appetite will return-

I am glad to see all the anti PR that the unionists bring on themselves but-but-i have never seen worse protests or rioting in all my life-fireworks and toy bangers and it makes the news around the world- fuck me-the taliban are going to Toys r us for the right stuff to make the headlines-

larry hughes said...

Nial/Belfast bookworm

enjoyed yer posts.

James

i read 80% of it then near lapsed into a coma.

Itsjustmacker

can't thank you enough for the willie frazer link. He says do they think the loyalist/protestant/ulster people are stupid? obviously not after seeing you willie we don't...he also complained about terrorists getting outa jail...

govner of the H-Blocks called king rats daddy in December '97. he said ive good news and bad which to ye want first....good news said his wee daddy...ok said the govner, you'll have billy home for the new year!

see, there was even discrimination on the prisoner release issue, the rat got out first!

larry hughes said...

i see we have a 'pan-hun' front. anything but mix with the mere Irish!

Belfast Bookworm said...

Cheers for that video link itsjustmacker.. I'd heard about it but hadnt been able to find it.
Wullie is a legend.

What I want to know is where the feck is that £1.5bn?

itsjustmacker said...

michaelhenry

"fuck me-the taliban are going to Toys r us for the right stuff to make the headlines".

Michael hat made me laugh, Cheers.

Larry.

Your welcome, when I'm on a downer I just go and watch wee willie on the tube, I wonder will he be put forward as a candidate for Martyboy mc guinness vacated seat, that would be the laugh of the century.

Belfast Bookworm.

I think they will field two for Martboy mcguinness's vacated seat, maybe wee willie frazer and another one, but the two of them together couldn't muster the votes, its a safe SF seat.

Belfast Bookworm said...

Strange choice, I thought, in putting Molloy in Martys MP seat.

Maybe he'll be the first to bin the abstention policy and sit in Westminster?

James said...

Larry,
I knew you didnt read the whole of the story when you said you only read 80%. I suppose 80% is good enough, according to self help books. I am told. They should publish one on "Overcoming Sectarian sterotyping, let it go, let it good".lol.
Nail,
I feel your pain on bending over to the protestant working class, then the catholic working class maybe just as sectarian as them, no matter what the say, scratch the surface and it is the mirror image with a different scarf and flag. But answer me this what do you care about, if you are not into any ism? If you are claiming provisional sinn fein leadership were ever socialist, they were were only socialist in word alone. No matter what they name there advise centres.
Belfast bookworm,
Why do you feel bored with the social economic reasons of the loyalist protests?. Maybe you have been conditioned to beleive these issues are boring, but ineffect they are real quality of life issues, instead of symbolic,patriotic notions manufactured by the elite to ensure the majority subservant heard the call in defense of their country. Any one of the world wars could prove that to you. I beleive people are bored with what they are unwilling or want to understand. In this case the confidence trick of being loyalist. I ask only the protestants/loyalists this "Can you eat a flag".The system of government here in the north has the place in fucking tatters, while they live for free. I am working class and I unconsciously do not aspire in any shape or form to be middle class. Why should I. Ok somebody give me a defination of middle class and why I should aspire to being it, as I unconsciously aspire to being there.? You can say all you want about Willie Frazer, I simply do not have a lot to say to his sectarian contribution, by refusing to join the Unionist forum, he was right, as these people will take him in, give him a session or 3 of positive manipulation stroking of how us elites really care about you working class protestants now go back to your base, beat your drum and we will allow you back out again on the 12th. It certainly has worked up to date. Larry has proabably switched off by now. I said before the loyalists are snookered. Their ideology to the queen will ensure they know there place. Christ I bet the Sinners leadership wish they had a Queen, if they thought it was going to be this easy. Instead they have mislead on unification on false promises like the long war in the 70's, emotional manipulation of the hungerstrikes 80's, returning to stormount and the peace process vehicle in the 90's and now we are in ther Era of the "unitied Ireland project". All manipulated and spinned, to not so perfection because we are speaking about it now. Everydog in the street knows that, the only way Ireland will be united will by consent alone. But answer me this what style of government deo you want in your united Ireland? A style like stormount? If you are happy enough then, you are happy enough...Nobody has answered me this on this blog.I know this for me to win, doesnt mean for someone to lose. For you to win, has somebody to lose? For them to win have you to lose?. For that is a retrograde mindset.

Belfast Bookworm said...

James; you obviously didn't read my post properly. But thanks for the lecture. It was riveting.

James said...

Belfast Bookworm,
I certainly did read your posts from start to finish. I certainly wasnt lecturing you either, just opening up the debate to everyone. Real issues boring eh? Maybe should just focus on the huns? Reminds me of the film Blazing Saddles- Cleavon Little famous quotes. "I love to keep my audience riveted". Now on a serious note, what is the odds you will see the Nesbitt and Robinson possibly maginness heading over to Westminister to discuss with their PM the civil unrest in loyalist communities. This is how it may staged via the media to create an illusion of actually doing something about it, in effect it may result in an attempt for a wee bit more of economic investment (buy off). Still laughing at the blazing saddles quote...not you now belfast bookworm.

Belfast Bookworm said...

James; just to clarify. I said very clearly that I was bored excusing and justifying the protests. Not bored of socio economic factors. I think you ate finding it difficult to understand this.

You stated in an earlier post that no one on this blog was answering you. What question is it that you're asking exactly?

Let me ask you something. What is your strategy for 'engaging' the working class loyalist protesters? Dander up to a crowd in the middle of the road and beat them up the gub with the communist manifesto?

Tell me how to engage them. You seem to have all the answers.

Also, this 'civil unrest' you referred to is actually rioting. Get it right. Next you'll be telling us it's actually a people's revolution.

Robert said...

Michael Henry,

'I am glad to see all the anti PR that the unionists bring on themselves..'

That will be the'Unionist Outreach'
then. The schadenfreude may be somewhat premature given that Sinn Fein stratagems invariably enhance Unionism rather than diminish it.


itsjustmacker said...

Robert:

"The schadenfreude may be somewhat premature given that Sinn Fein stratagems invariably enhance Unionism rather than diminish it.
"


I would hasten to say, it doe's diminish it, now, that's coming from someone who doe's not support Sinn Fein , If Adams strategy is correct it would surprise me if the border poll is allowed because it's not up to Sinn Fein or Loyalist to decide, but then again , He who has to decide is by far not a Republican, so I will say, It will be CHUCKED OUT.

michaelhenry said...

Robert-

" That will be the Unionists Outreach then "

Certainly is- manys was the time that i wanted to reach out for a unionist- then frasser came along-i
think unionists will be looking a bit more of friendly Outreach at the momment and the time ahead-

Whats the crack with yourself and this flag bother Robert [ hope you dont mind me asking ]

larry hughes said...

Robert

Gerry kelly...whom i was extremely proud to have been in the crum with as a child... nailed it for me on tv. he made me proud to know him again..parity of esteem ...TRICLOUR on city hall.

itsjustmacker said...

Larry:

Now we would need a big Orange pot for the boiling of their Orange Blood , because if that HAPPENS they will implode themselves, they still don't get it do they?, we are becoming superior now!. forget the wee flag demos that's just a front and I wouldn't be surprised if ex UDA man Peter the boy Robinson was behind it all, he is one devious person. He would do anything to stay in power.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Larry,
'In the Crum with me as a child?'
You definitely have a case for Jim Mc Veigh because putting children in adult prisons is illegal.
What age were you?
I know people like Alec Murphy and others were interned in their quite early teens but they could not be described as children!
'Made me proud to know him again'
Why is that Larry because he wants a Tricolour flown over the City Hall?
If you cannot spot the irony or hypocrisy in what you said, then it quite understandable why you are proud of sharing prison space with Kelly.

Belfast Bookworm said...

Larry;

'Gerry kelly...whom i was extremely proud to have been in the crum with as a child..'

And why was that?

'. nailed it for me on tv. he made me proud to know him again..parity of esteem ...TRICLOUR on city hall.'

Really? You're easily bought.

Feel te love said...

It appears to me that the uvf are telling the Brits to back of because of the potential supergrass Gary Haggarty and the HET. They seem to be trying to ratchet up street disorder for now but the signs from yesterdays goings on,would suggest they are fast running out of options and are esculating things into a more sinister sphere,namely the use of pipe bombs. I doubt there is any doubts in peoples minds where this could end up.

The UVF is the extreme face of unionism and those that are in leadership positions feel they are being thrown to the wolves by the Brits.Many if not all of the organisation was controlled by the Brits for years. Just as many republicans feel abandoned by SF ,the UVF are having much the same problem with the Brits.The UVF has in its own belief been operating as part of the security services,doing the things the legal forces could not do. Now we have them trying to paint a picture simular to 1969,erosion of thier Brittishness,then street disorder,next stop conflict. Obviously there is no real comparrison but it is enough for now that they are giving the Brits a glance through the portal at what is being threatened.

The bottom line for them is in my own opinion.If we are going down we will be doing our damnedess to take the peace process with us.

AM said...

Feel to love,

there is a lot in that. Pretty much as I have been reading it too.

James said...

Belfast Bookworm said "I've spent the last four weeks rationalising the protests/riots; there are massive socio economic reasons, they feel disempowered, they feel polarised etc etc but then I even began to bore myself". How could I not take from your post you are bored with the sociol economic reasons for the protests and they feel disempowered. You wrote it. You said I also seem to have all the answers, whats draws you to that conclusion? You also said,I'm sick sore and tired of trying to 'bring working class loyalists onside'. I'm fed up trying to show them they've more in common with me than some inbred monarchy in England so I'm not gonna bother anymore. They don't want to hear it. They just want to hate me and rule me - possibly even kill me if they could get away with it. Another question how many have you actually met with that mindset you precieve? As well as the British out, do you want the prods out to? Now I have asked you these questions for your answer. You asked me how would I engage with working class protestants, would I dander up the road into the middle of them and hit them round the gub with the communist manifesto? Now are you you asking me a queston and then answering it for me on how YOU PERCIEVE I would deal with the issue. I thought you said I seem to have all the answers? James asked this question initially in his post "But answer me this what style of government do you want in your united Ireland? A style like stormount?

I also see Marty and Peter are to do lunch with the SOS and the Irish T, cameron must have been busy?

Robert said...

Larry,

'Gerry Kelly...whom i was extremely proud to have been in the crum with as a child..'

A pride, I imagine, that is only surpassed by Jonathan Powell's?

That's quite a transformation of opinion - Gerry, I,m sure, will be delighted by your fickleness.
If Alliance prove to be as capricious, and I have a suspicion that they will fold under continued pressure, it is a conceivable prospect that the Union flag may be displayed not only on the cenotaph on a permanent basis but additionally on the designated flagstaff on the designated days that Sinn Fein supported.

'TRICLOUR (sic) on city hall.'

To be hoped for but hardly a vista you are likely to see.


Robert said...

itsjustmacker,

'I would hasten to say, it doe's diminish it, now, that's coming from someone who doe's not support Sinn Fein'

A volte face that somewhat undermines your previously stated beef with them. I get a sense that you have opted to medicate with a belief that the Union has been diminished by Sinn Fein rather than travel to where the evidence takes you.

itsjustmacker said...

Robert:

I don't see nationalists wrecking their own areas and stopping doctors get to patients, also, stopping a poor man from getting out of his own district to visit his dying wife, Burning out Protestant peoples cars etc.
Its plain to see the (UVF/Beast from the East is running these riots and No unionist can do anything about it, so what doe's that tell you about the divided Union , why are they attacking their own crown forces, ie, Policemen and women?. What beggers beliefe is, The Beast is out on Bail on Drug charges, yet he has not been arrested, Yet men on a peaceful sit down protest on the crumlin Rd, Ardoyne are arrested and locked up, NOT FOR RIOTING. Do you agree with that injustice?.

Belfast Bookworm said...

James. You're being very tiresome and you're answering questions with questions. Also, when you speak about yourself in the third person it's easy to give the impression that you're not all there.

I'll clarify one more time - just for you, I said I was bored/fed up of using socio economic reasons to justify and excuse these protests.

I think there's a huge difference between wanting 'prods out' and refusing to pander to loyalist protesters by trying to win them over to the working class cause. Furthermore, I have had the misfortune of meeting many loyalists and been at the wrong end of their rage. As I child I was even held at gunpoint by a man who was apparently 'just trying to scare me'.

I think you need to take your head out of the sand and do a little growing up.

larry hughes said...

Robert

I am seriously enjoying the disgraceful seens in hun areas. If Kelly and co. can excite such fun and games by a democratic vote over a silly fleg, then im only to happy to sit back and watch those who lectured us for decades on 'majority' and 'democracy' go apeshit when it isnt applied in the Nazi fashion they interpret as'their' democracy.

The Irish flag on city hall and all nordy government buildings may come about sooner that you think. But when it does i'm sure unionist democrats will accept it in good faith lmao.

keep the wee conveyor belt rolling into the courts stacked with wee hun delinquents. Oh how wonderful it is to see!

larry hughes said...

On a more serious note, why are loyalist gangsters not being interned?

frankie said...

Michael...

manys was the time that i wanted to reach out for a unionist- then frasser came along

Why don't you? Are you afraid of Willie? Whats stopping you using your contacts within the PRM/SF and suggesting crossing the oxymorons and going into schools-youth clubs on the PUL side of the divide and listening and engaging with kids/young adults (I don't mean the odd weekend away playing paintball)? Unless that happens on both sides, as 'Feel te love' hinted, the North will explode again in the not to near distant future. Or suggesting to the PRM/SF MLA's that wouldn't it be a good idea to have mixed schools in 10yrs time (starting at primary schools ) and in 15 yrs all schools are mixed (same education, same version of history...). And in say 5yrs time they start taking them [oxymorons] down. You could also argue while you are engaging with the PUL side of the divide that the cost of policing the protests (and loss of trading) is at least 15million. That money has to found somewhere. And at a guess they'll (11 Downing Street) will simply reduce benefits, also less money spent on housing, health and education. The cost wont come out of the British mainland budget but money set side for the North. Which will mean more deprevation.

Whats this about michael?

-i have never seen worse protests or rioting in all my life-fireworks

Heres some hard facts about fireworks and the dangers they pose michael...

Sparklers get five times hotter than cooking oil. A rocket can reach speeds of 150mph. A firework shell can reach as high as 200 metres (think about it being fired horizontal). Three sparklers burning together generate the same heat as a blowtorch. You see the explosion of a firework before hearing it because sound travels at 761mph, but light travels at 671 million mph. The most common injuries are to hands, followed by the eyes and face. Bottle rockets are particularly dangerous because their flight path is erratic, their fuses are non-standard and their explosive power is enough to turn a 'launch site' bottle or can into shrapnel. Epileptics can experience seizures

Think about this for a split second Michael. A kid throws a firework at the police and it misses its target and hits a window of a house or someone ties two or three together and again it misses it target and explodes under a car or an innocent person trying to get home??? Or it explodes in the persons hand??

Tell me again Michael & Larry whats funny about fireworks?

Belfast Bookworm said...

Larry; and you think the tricolour hanging above all government buildings in the north while it is still under British rule will mean what exactly?

If that ever does happen - and I doubt it - surely only the colour of the flag will have changed?

frankie said...

WTF larry...!!!!!!!

I am seriously enjoying the disgraceful seens in hun areas.


You are studying to be a teacher and you are enjoying watching kids (8-14yr olds) getting caught up in sectarianism. And you get some sort of enjoyment from it??? Square the circle. Knowing kids who haven't a clue about politics or why they are rioting getting criminal records and screwing their future..

I'm trying to figure out why parents let their kids get involved in the first place. What are social services doing about it??? Probably nothing (or very little). I know if my mutt (my son, he's a half breed, a plastic paddy) who is 11yrs old said.."Daddy, I'm going up to the top of the road and throw a few firworks and petrol bombs at the peelers..Trust me, he'd get a size 11 where the sun deffo doesn't shine..And grounded.

Last year there was rioting and looting in England and within days in city centres they had screens showing the faces of who done what, where and when special courts were set up and the guilty were locked up. The didn't even pass go to collect 200, no get of jail free card either.

marty said...

feel te love I think you are fairly close on the money also a cara, it certainly points to the direction in which you suggest, but I think we are also witnessing a power surge by the dup,if this works out they will decimate the Alliance party giving them control of Belfast city council again and more importantly Stormont where I suspect they may push for a majority rule government,what we have witnessed these past few weeks has been politically inspired by the dup and their 40K leaflets re "tearing down our flag" playing on the nerves and ambitions of an allready gittery uvf the dup has like their founder stirred up this trouble for their own selfish political ends,the uvf and the eejits who follow them will be allowed to run amok until Pete the punt decides its time to pull the plug,what will emerge from this will imo be a rejuvenated "old style"dup with Nesbitts UU under their control and deals done in regards HET,s inquiries into "loyalist" murders effectively leaving the uvf under Pete the punts control (as it seems to be already)and quisling $inn £ein can do nothing but sit on their hands as usual...

larry hughes said...

Frankie

ABSOLUTELY enjoying watching reprabates who's only culture is the denial of our own getting themselves screwed up 'legally' for life. It goes perfectly with the screwed up menatal condition they inherited from their Nazi parents who see it their duty to continue the retardation of Ireland.

Teacher training has zero to do with seeing the sweet irony in a Nazi RUC having no option but to convict their 'own' wee babes.

Sometimes it really is a wonderful world! You delude yourself that Loyalism is there to be woed politically if ya want. Personally I give that oul shite no air-time.

James said...

Belfast Bookworm,
You find me a bit of a lecturer, a bore, tiresome and childish, now you percieve me to be not all there. Fair enough your opinion. "But answer me this what style of government do you want in your united Ireland? A style like stormount? Why do you not answer this? I think you need to take your head out of the sand and do a little growing up.What do you mean by this? I ask a honest question only. Also for the record I have engaged with the protestant working class as my job.

I also beleive it is curtains for Naioma Long in East Belfast after this.

larry hughes said...

James

'I also beleive it is curtains for Naioma Long in East Belfast after this.'

couldn't agree more! So much for working class unity, she's going to get the chop for bringing Belfast City Hall into line with all other buildings regarding the wee fleg...nothing more.

Belfast Bookworm said...

James; I couldn't be bothered answering you about Stormont, that's all. For I've a feeling you'll go into one about how it isn't working - something I know anyway.

Good for you engaging with the Protestant working class through work. Sure don't we all?

But who's talking about Protestants? Only you. I was talking about loyalist rioters. Why are you so hung up on Protestants?

frankie said...

Larry,
ABSOLUTELY enjoying watching reprabates who's only culture is the denial of our own getting themselves screwed up 'legally' for life. It goes perfectly with the screwed up menatal condition they inherited from their Nazi parents who see it their duty to continue the retardation of Ireland.

And it's the duty of a teacher to educate and to explain to students why their thinking is wrong. Not to poke fun at some kid getting manlipulated by his peers to riot and screw his future up before his 16th/18th birthday.

What will happen Larry, is the kids who are rioting today, will in all probability carry the hate and sectarianism into the next generation. In a nutshell your grandkids will see the same division as we have, tit for tat killings, bigger oxymorons and less money in their pockets (no one will want to invest in the North).

You delude yourself that Loyalism is there to be woed politically if ya want. Personally I give that oul shite no air-time.

PUL voters, like nationalist/republican voters are there to wooed politically. And by giving that oul shite air time you have a chance to explain to them why the are wrong. And why their policitcal leaders only care about them at election time.

Jimmy Birch from the UDA said this in a BBC interview.

"We are wrecking our own areas, we fight with the police, we are burning our own cars and we stop our own people going to work and disrupt our own people's way of life.

Larry we all know that the flag issue has nothing to do with the problems on both sides. Everyone is watching 'Jobs for the boys' handed out. While wee Paddy and wee Billy don't even get crumbs that fall to the floor.

Why don't you use your teaching skills to explain to the PUL community that the real problem is Britain. Not their catholic neighbours. Explain to them that all the GFA has done is create more division. All mainstream Unionist and Republican politicains have done is line their own pockets. All Britain have done is manlipulate everyone to their own ends. You can also give them a breif history lesson as RNU pointed out in their fledgling paper (Standing outside the...) and talk more about the relief riots where people came together to fight against the unionist state. or What James Larkin managed briefly in uniting workers and wantin better working conditions or Tones message about uniting everyone.

What I know Larry is laughing at them, poking fun etc... isn't going to heal any rifts. But by talking to the PUL community and listening to thier gripes, there is a better chance of finding common ground to build a better society.

larry hughes said...

Frankie

how is it there with Alice in wonderland?

loyalism by design divisive, exclusionist and descriminatory. Loyalism did not arrive from misguided innocence, they know what they are about and should be faced with it, not fettered.

They are not misguided. Nor do they desire any place for you or i in their wee norn-iron if they could get it back.

some like Robert are articulate enough. However if you encounter an educated fascist it's a fascist just the same. I don't feel Robert is a fascist, that's not my point. my point is loyalism is under no illusion as to its roll here. YOU ARE!

Belfast Bookworm said...

Frankie; while I agree with what you've said here, particularly that the problem is Britain, convincing others of this is totally unrealistic and it would only work in an ideal world.

You can't persuade fascists that working together towards equality, fairness and justice would be better for us all. Fascists don't care about that, they only care about reigning supreme over those of us they think they're better than.

James said...

Belfast bookworm,
But answer me this what style of government do you want in your united Ireland? That was the question? If you cannot be bothered to answer me then tht is fine.fair enough. I just beleive it to be a very interesting question to ask republicians who see the British as the sole responsiblity of state of play in the North. I have a very strong feeling you are more hung up on the protestants than me, especially after reading your posts. Nevermind. I am interested in views on challenging the sectarian divide because the main parties need it to exsist, for them to exist and stay in power, never mind the paramilitiaries on both sides.
Frankie,Hodgie
I agree with what you said in your posts.

frankie said...

James, you are 'engaging' with working class protestants in your job..What are they saying to you? What are you telling them? This could be interesting.

"But answer me this what style of government do you want in your united Ireland? A style like stormount?

I can't answer for bookworm or anyone but myself. I don't want a goverment anything like Stormount. I'd like an impartial police force with no links to Britian. The Mi5 building knocked down or turned into a housing complex. No oxymorons. The natural resources around the Irish shores handed back to the Irish not run for profit by some mutli national who's only concern is their profit margin. Everyone going to the same schools, same education. A place where everyone is treated as an equal (not Orwellain equal). Where the RC church has no links with the state (or any role in it). Same for protestant religion, Islam, Jewish....Anyone who wants to learn religion, they can go to Sunday school.

What I know James is, 15yrs ago the GFA was meant to unite people. Today I can stand at the city hall and watch kids coming from school, adults going home from work and I can take an educated guess at their religion by the bus they take or taxi they use. I don't want that kind of Stormount.

What kind of united Ireland/Stormont do you want to see James?

@Larry,
Again, why don't you use your skills as a teacher to explain to the PUL community why they are wrong. Explain to them why they are excatly what their parents or grand parents fought against (fascism)...


how is it there with Alice in wonderland?


Whats so wrong with trying to offer an olive branch to the PUL community and explaining there is more to unite us than divide us? Isn't that what all iconic Republican hero's in the past tried to do? Instead (correct me if I'm wrong), but you want to wash your hands and do a Pontius Pilate, hoping one day CRN out breed the PUL community. The sectarianism will still be there unless we can heal the rifts. The biggest stumbling block to unification is Britian. Not the PUL community (although certain people want you to think otherwise).

A few weeks back Harry said this to me on the Standing outside the Peace Process.

It would indeed need to be a leap of faith since PUL folks are not "that sort" of Irish. The sort of Irish that you are talking about.

When will you ever get the point that since just about all PUL folks are of British ethnicity they see themselves as being politically British as opposed to being politically Irish?


Harry if you are reading this, taking politics out of the equation. How Irish are you? Big toe, a leg, two kidneys and a lung?

@ Marty, about Roy McShane, I read an article by Liam Clarke he was mentioning McShane in the same breath as the Nutting Squad. I got crossed wires.

Marty, I know from your posts you got locked up (hope this comes out correct)..When you (or any prisoner) was freed, was there any help offered with coming to terms what you experienced or were you expected to 'grow a pair' and deal with it yourself? I've to listen to BA soliders in the media coming back from Iraq and Afghan and suffering bouts of PTSD.

Basically in the GFA was there any provision for political prisoners on both sides to recieve help if they needed it or was help only offered to those who are Standing inside the peace process?

Belfast Bookworm said...

James; I don't want any style of government. In this respect I agree with Sean in his original post. I am an anarchist.

So you want to challenge the sectarian divide then? How do you propose to do this? I am truly interested - but only if you keep it concise and bear in mind that I made no mention of Protestants.

frankie said...

Bookworm,

Thats why I'm convinced that part of the answer lies in mixed schools where kids are taught the same version of history.

I've just finished abook by David Lister & Hugh Jordan on Johnny Adair and C-coy. And the guy was a nutter (I reckon if Johnny was born 10/15 yrs earlier he'd probably been one of Lenny's Butchers) it'sjustmackers you were right, he did go about in a celtic shirt and a cardboard cut out of a celtic figure in his car..that aside..

RUC SB had his finger prints on FRU files from the late 80's (it had to come from Nelson) yet did nothing (apart from let him arrange for catholics and protestants to be killed (Johhny only killed one person, a protestant with mental age of a kid)), terrorise the Shankill Road and run extortion rackets, exploit his community, drugs...beat his wife. Great example of a loyalist.

Who gained..The families of the people who died, got exploited or even in Johnny and C8 of C-coy they got exiled by their own community.

What did Mi5 get?? A new building outside Belfast, more money to spend on intelligence, a bigger foothold in Ireland. RUC SB re-employed after recieving large redundacy packages. They gained.

What is also in the book is a different version of who was involved in the killing of Pat Finucane. According to the book, Ken Barret wasn't the shooter but the driver and no sledge hammers were used. And in July 1992 an undercover army unit came very close to taking out part of the 'dream team'. A source said only a jogger came past it would have been our [their] Loughgall...

When I read that, first thought into my head was 'What if..' I reckon a lot of the people who support Loyalist terrorists wouldn't be singing the prasies of the security forces if they got killed.

Bookworm the PUL community need to understand that the spooks in suits don't care about anyone but themselves.

For all his faults, Ian Paisley snr was right when he said to Martin McGuinness..

" Martin, we don't need Britain to sort out our affairs, we can do that ourselves"

To the PUL community, 10 Downing Street is all our problems, Whitehall too. It's deffo not your catholic neighbours. And with an Island the size of Ireland it makes economic sense if nothing else that we are united..Someone living on the Falls Road getting JSA, ESA etc gets the same money every two weeks as you. Buys clothes in the same city centre shops, listens to the same radio stations, watches the same TV programs...Has the same worries about paying bills, feeding and clothing kids. Sometimes probably takes the same bus. Probably served you a meal in a resturant or bar and you didn't get contaminated (chances are you made small talk and tipped them if the service was good). When you take the politic out of the equation, they [CRN] eat, sleep and shit exactly the same as you.

What you the PUL community have to understand is this here Simple as.

frankie said...

Bookworm here's one to all anarchist's.

To the PUL community Ulster isn't close to being British. Would you settle for an alternative one?

Nothin' for us in Belfast
The Pound's so old it's a pity
OK, there's the trident in Bangor
Then walk back to the city
We ain't got nothin' but they don't really care
They don't even know you know
Just want our money
And we can take it or leave it
What we need

[Chorus] An Alternative Ulster
Grab it and change it it's yours
Get an Alternative Ulster
Ignore the bores and their laws
Get an Alternative Ulster
Be an anti-security force
Alter your native Ulster
Alter your native land

Take a look where you're livin'
You got the Army on your street
And the RUC dog of repression
Is barking at your feet
Is this the kind of place you wanna live?
Is this where you wanna be?
Is this the only life we're gonna have?
What we need is

[Chorus]

They say they're a part of you
But that's not true you know
They say they've got control of you
And that's a lie you know
They say you will never be
Free free free

Get an
Alternative Ulster
Alternative Ulster
Alternative Ulster

larry hughes said...

Frankie

'Thats why I'm convinced that part of the answer lies in mixed schools where kids are taught the same version of history.'

the mind boggles! I know historical invention/propoganda and the creation of national identity go hand in hand... but in this case no fuckin history is the only way you can arrive at your hoped for destination. Unless we do a sir walter scott (inventor of scottish culture) and creat a new history and joint culture afresh. today being 01/01/00

larry hughes said...

frankie

for the record im doing CELTA English teaching cert... to do a 'bo-peep' and get the flock-outa-here!!!

Belfast Bookworm said...

Frankie; cheers for that link. I enjoyed it - I forgot it existed.

I'm not wholly convinced about mixed schools if they're in the 'integrated' sense that is applied here in the north. They don't seem to be working and if you look at some of the posts on social media sites recently about the riots and protests a surprising number of young people attend integrated schools. Integration in education in this way will only work if children are brought up in homes free from sectarianism.

Immersion education on the other hand, and I'm speaking specifically about the Irish medium as this is an area of interest for me personally, has found that graduates from this system are more open minded to other cultures, more acceptant of difference and less likely to have sectarian/racist etc attitudes. The jury is still out of course on the reasons for this but my own personal feeling is that it's a mixture of schooling and the type of homes children come from and the aspirations parents have for their children.

Belfast Bookworm said...

It's interesting you brought up the bold Johnny Adair. I knew him personally and I can tell you he is a class A buck eejit. Wullie Frazer with a gun.

He got his so called hard man rep from running around city hall getting into fisty cuffs with Catholics who ran around the town too. I know many a one who gave him a kicking - he couldn't beat Casey's drum. He was actually a bit of a joke figure in lower north Belfast. He used to drive into the new lodge or carrick hill and stop people on the street to pass on the message that johnny Adair was here.. But he was always with a carload full of mates and always wearing Celtic jerseys. He always spoke of himself in the third person too. We called him Jinny Adair.

People in other parts of the city seemed to hold him in much higher esteem than we in the north did. We were under no illusion that he wasnt a thug who would shoot you but he was an eejit, a fool who tried to make himself a legend in his own lifetime. He was really a bit of a laughing stock and we could never get our head round how he'd achieved this hard man status.

itsjustmacker said...

Stiff Little Fingers.

Great group and that's coming from an oldie, maybe an alternative ulster would be needed, but just a minute, who's going to police it and run it?, all the gangsters!, its a major problem, and, that is, no matter who runs it, we are still the underdogs on both sides of the divide and those running it will reap the rewards.
I call it, A NO WIN SITUATION because Greed begets Greed, but if all the so called peace walls were removed and people from each side integrated then an alternative Ulster would be possible.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Frankie,
I don't think your wires were that crossed. Roy was a jack of all trades even if he finished up master of none.
Finished up a driver but he was quite a seedy character without a scruple to his name.
Had a long stint in intelligence with the help of the Brits so he could of dabbled a bit further who can say?

Simon said...

"And in July 1992 an undercover army unit came very close to taking out part of the 'dream team'. A source said only a jogger came past it would have been our [their] Loughgall..."

I don't believe the British would have used the shoot-to-kill policy on loyalists. They had plenty of opportunities but since their goals were the same and they shared a common enemy there wouldn't be much motivation.

Sure the people who tried to kill Bernadette McAlisky were allowed to pass an undercover unit hidden around the house and weren't arrested until after they left.

It is a bit like the collusion between the security forces and loyalists which was driven by a shared goal (a goal which was shared by Loyalism in general) and the collusion between Republican informers and the security forces which also had a similar goal (a goal which wasn't shared by Republicanism in general).

frankie said...

Bookworm,

The jury is still out of course on the reasons for this but my own personal feeling is that it's a mixture of schooling and the type of homes children come from and the aspirations parents have for their children.

Thats half the problem, the education kids get at home. As for social media sites, they should carry a health warning and should be properly moderated. Zuckerberg has a lot to answer for.

As for Johnny, the book didn't do him any favours. It painted him as a class A wingnut. I think two of the biggest loses to the PUL community were John McMichael & David Ervine. I know a wee bit about both, something tells me McMichael would have mellowed in old age. Even though he was calling the shots (no pun) within the UVF, even he knew one day people were going to have to live together and talk..(JMO).

Larry,

I know historical invention/propoganda and the creation of national identity go hand in hand... but in this case no fuckin history is the only way you can arrive at your hoped for destination.

I'm not talking about inventing history or re-writing it. I said kids should be taught the same versions of fact. As Levon Helm and Keith Richards said in the title of this song a deuce and a quarter ain't no cadillac.

Personally Larry, what ever is in the vaults of Boston, it'll be the closest we'll get to uncovering the truth about the troubles. But the powers that be want their grubby hands on it (Boston vaults) to re write history and that benefits no one except the spooks in suits.

it'sjustmackers,

but if all the so called peace walls were removed and people from each side integrated then an alternative Ulster would be possible.

I'm with you 100%. The oxymorons have to come down one day. As Issac Newton said many moons ago.. What goes up, must come down
As Kathleen largey sang about in The Town I loved so well...

and the damned barbed wire gets higher and higher

or as Malachy Trainor wrote about (great article..'Hawks of the morning)

And now all over some do smile
Except the walls move higher now
Sky high all life on leaving sigh


The oxymorons have to come down..For people to live together in peace..They have to come down.

Ryan said...

Larry,
Couldn't agree more. It is just wonderful to watch these daily riots. I got the same warm feeling during the London riots. The siege mentality of Ulster Prods is astounding. Unlike anything in the world except maybe for West Bank settlers. Everyone is the enemy! East Belfast can burn down for all I care. BURN BABY BURN haha!!

Ryan said...

I hope it is curtains for Naomi Long's political career. Sick of the Alliance Party and their saintly sanctimonious BS. This compromise was garbage. Either have the flag up 365 or have it up never."we are above the fray" types usually wind up in the dustbin of history. And deservedly so. Always trying to play two sides of an issue.

Belfast Bookworm said...

Ryan; 'BURN BABY BURN'

I actually have no words for this sociopathic rant. But when I read it I thought, yes - a village is missing am idiot somewhere.

PS: 'have it up never' this does not make sense.

larry hughes said...

Ryan

Totally agree abooot thae wae hunz the noo! That's a new language I just invented BTW.

Aye before long they'll all be at Islandmagee playing the banjo and giving the pig sexy looks! That's what happened their glorious isolation in the smokey mountains.

itsjustmacker said...

Ryan:

If you don't care if the Flag is up 365 days a year because it would make no difference to you, seems extraordinary to say the least.

My question is, WHY WOULD IT NOT BOTHER YOU TO SEE THE UNION FLAG FLYING ALL YEAR?.

BURN BABY BURN?.

So in that I take it you want everyone in east Belfast and all homes and business's to be BURNT TO THE GROUND?. I cant fathom your logic. Do you not realise not all support those rioting, the majority of those people are hard working class citizens, one said, "I didn't even notice the flag flying at the city hall", but, food for thought, The Flag doesn't bother Those in Sinn Fein who sit and work under it.

James said...

Frankie,
You asked me to answer “What form of government do I want in a unity Ireland. People before profit will do for a start. A 32 county socialist republic. To challenge the current, British, Irish or Stormont form of thatcherism which is very real form of governmental control at this exact minute especially in the form of privatisation in Ireland. A military approach will only entrench the sectarian divisions already. Exploration of possible legislation to criminalise religiously motivated threatening, abusive, disorderly or offensive, behaviour in both North and South. Good enough for Scotland, why not here. All other functions of governance similar to the Cuban system regarding education, healthcare, housing, welfare, sustainability on the basis of people before profit. You answered the rest in your post about resources which I agree. Frankie, I worked with the two communities on employability programmes. The sectarianism, mistrust, fear on each side is based not on actual knowledge, but by people willing to keep the communities apart for their own ends “Divide and Rule” administrated by bigots on both sides. Divide and Rule may have originated by the British, but it is very alive in all capitalist socities especially in the nouth. For example, I asked a protestant what he understood about republicanism. To him republicanism was the military PIRA and tribal sectarianism and an attempt to cast the protestants back to his mainland. He then quoted to me from the united Irish and said their was little “Unity of Protestant, Catholic and dissenter” when they have been bombing, shooting and murdering us for decades in the provos campaign. His words. Then again, you could get this response from the catholic background based on loyalist paramilitaries. Who benefits from the division it certainly wasn’t the boy on either side of the divide who in many ways gets sucked into the whole trappings of the conflict and you know the rest.
Belfast Bookworm
So you want to challenge the sectarian divide then? How do you propose to do this? I am truly interested - but only if you keep it concise and bear in mind that I made no mention of Protestants. I will keep it concise as I can. “Sectarianism kills workers”. The vast majority of them from the last campaign were young male, working class. I can only propose, integrated education, regular integrated community activities, a better understanding of class consciousness and how SF, DUP and the rest of the Stormont thatcherist administrators have been and will continue to exploit religious tribalism to their pro right – neo liberial ends. SF have perfected the art of “talking left and acting right when in power. The DUP are less obvious, as they believe they have it in the bag over loyality to the queen, Britishness and the protestant way of life. Also do not ask me to answer a question and then ask me to be concise about it, who do you think you are, talking to me like that? Censoring me. I have as much right to write my comments as you bearing in mind the reason why the blog was set up for. I haven’t patronized you once about your comments I have only asked honest questions. I like a laugh like the next man, if you try to continue ridiculing me, expect a similar approach.

Belfast Bookworm said...

James; is it possible that you patronise without realising that you're doing so? In the first post you directed at me you suggested I had been 'conditioned'. You went on to say, when you didn't read my post properly and addressed the (non) boredom issue that people don't want to understand or are unwilling to understand.

This is very patronising because I understand a lot and I can assure you I have not been conditioned to anything.

PS: see my earlier post re; integrated education. This is not the answer.

James said...

Belfast bookworm,
James; is it possible that you patronise without realising that you're doing so? This is plausable. I will take that as constructive criticism and certainly not dwell on it negatively as I am not that insecure as to what I hold true. In relation to being conditioned, you would need to above society in order for you (not be conditioned of anything) in the socialisation process. That is a matter of fact of the socialisation process. That is one of the reasons why I believe integrated education is a very important aspect of socialising our children at a early age. It is easier to have a form of hatred of the feared and unknown than the known. Immersion education I have not heard of that before. Could you explain a little further please?

Belfast Bookworm said...

James; immersion education applies specifically to bilingual education and its when a child is educated through a language that is not their native or first language I suppose. They are literally immersed in a system of education where instruction, activity and all forms of engagement is done through the second or language that is being taught. I'm interested in immersion education through the Irish language.

As well as the benefit of two languages, research is showing that children are much more diverse in their outlook, have greater acceptance of other cultures and have greater respect for difference and change. As I said earlier the jury is still out as to why this is so and it could well be that parents whochoose to send their children to be educated in this way, are themselves more open minded etc but it's quite an impressive set up.

I've worked in integrated education in the norn iron sense and its full of gaping holes. Structured RE for example is still taught and kids are separated for instruction, highlighting and exacerbating difference in my opinion. A wholly different approach to education where the child is central to their own learning is the way forward - and from what I can see, immersion education is nailing this.

itsjustmacker said...

some useful links for reading, two of them are pdf downloads.

collusion.pdf

Kays Tavern.pdf

<a href="www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/glenanne_gang<Glenanne Gang Collusion</a>

Robert said...

itsjustmacker,

'I don't see nationalists wrecking their own areas and stopping doctors get to patients, also, stopping a poor man from getting out of his own district to visit his dying wife, Burning out Protestant peoples cars etc.'

There are obvious issues for those involved in fouling their own community to address. It is a similar situation to that which prevailed in your own community for decades. Perhaps the resolution to much of that provides a template to resolve the current issues in East Belfast? That would necessitate the crafting of a form of government that places the individual who you identify as the orchestrator of this violence at the head of the administration.

frankie said...

Bookworm


As well as the benefit of two languages, research is showing that children are much more diverse in their outlook, have greater acceptance of other cultures and have greater respect for difference and change. As I said earlier the jury is still out as to why this is so and it could well be that parents whochoose to send their children to be educated in this way, are themselves more open minded etc but it's quite an impressive set up..


I totally understand that. I've three kids, franco-irlandaise. And my oldest daughter is almost 19, she's jewish and some of her friends in college are 2nd generation Algerian. When you said about children who are intergrated into another culture at an early age, they grow up accepting other peoples opinions and cultures more readily..I've seen it for my own eye's in my kids.

Ryan said...

Ah yes the Bookworm is not just the arbiter of righteousness and virtue but a grammar critic as well.
If East Belfast loyalists wanna go on a rampage for 45 days and burn down their area who are we to stop them? Its better than them burning down West Belfast would you not agree? If these people can get so riled up over the flag not flying at Belfast City Hall can you imagine the carnage they will wreak if there is ever a successful border poll?
45 days of daily violence over a flag and you call America a dysfunctional society?

itsjustmacker said...

Robert:

"There are obvious issues for those involved in fouling their own community to address."

Firstly you suggest putting the top Gangster from East Belfast who is at the moment on Bail, Yet not being arrested and the psni have stated they know who he is, that says to me either, PSNI/UVF/UDA/UFF/PAF Collusion, or, He is being handled by MI5 or Special Branch and PSNI have been told, "LEAVE IT ALONE ,THE MATTERS IN HAND FROM ABOVE.
As for my community getting wrecked, We got whatever we could to barricade ourselves from Loyalist Gunmen, and that includes B-Specials who were in civilian clothes shooting down from Cranbrook Gds in Ardoyne,also from the top of the Hill (dumps) from ruc and uvf shooting down into ardoyne, and, I'm pleased to say, They ran like the clappers when they were opened up on as did the Cranbrook Gds ones, once they were opened up on as well, but only after they set fire to their own houses and blamed it on Catholics and Yes, every bus was taken out of the bus depot to be used as well for barricades ,we used to call them (Miniture ruc),and, Billy connolly's puppets, but, the only way this rioting and wrecking of local busines's and cars and stopping people from getting to their place of work is, Accept the Belfast City Councils legal and within the Law's decision. And just one more thing Robert, Our Working class could not get out to work because they were hemmed in by Loyalist and RUC/B-Special Murdering gangs, The best thing that ever happene for every Nationalist area was the formation of P.I.R.A. as defenders of the districts, and, we didn't have any drug pushers.

larry hughes said...

'That would necessitate the crafting of a form of government that places the individual who you identify as the orchestrator of this violence at the head of the administration'.

Bonar Law, Craig and Carson?

itsjustmacker said...

Reference my post about useful links 9:56 PM, January 14, 2013.

Use this link please.




sorry about the error.

itsjustmacker said...

Larry:

"On a more serious note, why are loyalist gangsters not being interned?"

Maybe because they are on MI5/RUC_SPECIAL BRANCH PAYROLL, Because the poor PSNI have not got one iota what is going on, Oh, they know who the leaders are, especially the Beast of the East, but, they cant arrests them because they have been told to back off by the Agents of the devils. Think about it very carefully , HE IS OUT ON BAIL ON DRUGS CHARGES, now if that was a Taig , bail would be impossible.

larry hughes said...

itsjustmacker

just read that glenanne link... was there anyone in the UDR not in the UVF??

kind of makes ritious robert look daft!

frankie said...

Robert..

That would necessitate the crafting of a form of government that places the individual who you identify as the orchestrator of this violence at the head of the administration.

Why would you want to put Stephen Mathews (Beast from the East) at the head of an administration? He should be behind bars for running a criminal enterprise ( selling drugs, extortion, money laundering...). He is behind the rioting in east Belfast and south Antrim because Gary Haggarty turned supergrass to save his ass. In a nutshell thats the reason for the rioting.

There is no reason for any violence in the Short Strand. The PUL community have other options to get back to east Belfast without passing the residents of Short Strand almost on a daily basis.

G4 security (same ones who couldn't get enough staff for the Olympics), could police the Short Strand intferface better.
Robert you're from the PUL side of the oxymorons.

What is seriously pissing you of with the GFA? Personally, I don't like the hypocrisy.

itsjustmacker said...

well I have not got one clue why yhe link is not in above post, and, that's the truth, so I'm not going to post it again, because iI checked it three times before posting, But, Maybe Anthony can tell me if Ive done something wrong.

In the original post of ; 9:56 PM, January 14, 2013, Just delete ;

itsjustmacker said...

Larry.

was there anyone in the UDR not in the UVF??

And the RUC, Have you read the Weir Confession?. Ex RUC who worked with that same death squad and UDR?.

marty said...

ITSJUSTMACKER the heads of the pira drug squad in the pira were two brothers from Andytown ,those two were the main or top dealers in Belfast at that time a cara,the first person tarred and feathered for drug related activities was an innocent bloke,should we have read the signs then just what direction the movement was heading.

marty said...

One of the main reasons why there is never a grand prix in Belfast,as soon as the flags go down theres a riot.

Feel te love said...

Is nt it amazing to see a lazy media constantly refering to the decision to take down the Brit flag,as the cause for the continuing street disorer.

Whilst it was used as an excuse for protests,it was never the reason.UTV constantly refer to the flags issue on their web site as being the origin of the protests.It would be of more benefit to everyone if these media outlets applied themselves to finding out the cause,rather than accepting what they are being told.

Heard Jim Wilson the east Belfast community worker speaking to BBC radio Ulster earlier.Feel a little sorry for that guy.Not only is he doing his health no good with the stress he seems to be under but it appears he is getting the run around from the UFV leadership of east Belfast. Listenning to Matt Baggot yesterday had me almost laughing.He looked like one of those prisoners of war who was being made to read from a statement prepared by the devil him/herself. His body language indicated severe discomfort at what he was having to say.Bet he is going through the phase of,why the hell did I want this bloody job.Hang in there Matty lad,the Knighthood will be worth it to someone like you.

What can be said of SFs position in all this.Winders and manipulaters.

Belfast Bookworm said...

Ryan:

'Ah yes the Bookworm is not just the arbiter of righteousness and virtue but a grammar critic as well.'

I wasnt correcting your grammar as such, I simply pointed out that as a whole sentence it did not make any sense.

'If East Belfast loyalists wanna go on a rampage for 45 days and burn down their area who are we to stop them? Its better than them burning down West Belfast would you not agree?'

I wouldn't agree that it's ok for any part of the city or any community to be burnt down so this is a moot point. I have probably been intimidated and burnt out of more houses than you have lived in Ryan - it's a terrifying and soul-destroying experience and I wouldnt wish it on anyone.


'If these people can get so riled up over the flag not flying at Belfast City Hall can you imagine the carnage they will wreak if there is ever a successful border poll?'

Yes, I can.

'45 days of daily violence over a flag and you call America a dysfunctional society?'

No? I believe there are many dysfunctional people living in America - just as there are all over the world, and think this has a lot to do with the sheer size of the population first and foremost, as well as other contributary cultural and societal factors, but no. I dont believe America on the whole is dysfunctional.

James said...

Belfast Bookworm,
Thanks for the insight into immersed education, I am all for it. Surely is could be recycled and utiliseed from a mixed religious school point of view in the north. It they can use it for differnt languages and countries, they should be able to formulate their own criteria here in the North. We need to be open minded and come up with possible ideas as the folk in stormont need to keep the communities apart.
Its just mackers,
The best thing that ever happened for every Nationalist area was the formation of P.I.R.A. as defenders of the districts, and, we didn't have any drug pushers. I really cannot agree with that, I am not going to knock the PIRA,their vision, goal but you seem to forget how many innocent catholics died in the troubles by the PIRA defenders. A lesson learned from history, take the guns out of politics.We seem to have moved on form this notion of a military resolution or glory of paramilitary organisations on both sides as in my opinion, some of the people who got involved could be described as self serving psychopaths, sociopaths and undesirables with nothing else to offer. Now I am not saying all the people in paramilitaries were, far from it. But as long as people like adair et al not to mention the people on the republican sides can become heros in war conflicts they will be drawn to it. Often in times of war histroy teaches us that a psychopath often becomes a hero, in times of peace he becomes a psychopath. We must not let it go that way again, as the normal folk will bear most of the brunt of it and that is the real horror.

larry hughes said...

Colin Duffy's co accused has had his sentence quashed.

Must be great to have 'hun' parity of esteem, 45 day rampage and no charges/internment/lisence revoked with or without explanation.

itsjustmacker said...

Marty:

Re those two GOON Brothers and others were having talks with UDA and UVF and those in high up PIRA PSF new all about it, everything has gone downhill, hoody joy riders allowed to do what they want and RUC/PSNI recruit them as agents, I keep asking myself, "Is THAT WHAT THE WAR WAS FOR" Parents of those joy ridding have lost control of them, or, they don't give two shits what they do.

One of the main reasons why there is never a grand prix in Belfast,as soon as the flags go down theres a riot.

I LOve That One, suttle!

AM said...

Itsjustmacker,

you might have acidentally deleted your link. The earlier ones did not work for me. Two led back to TPQ home page and another was a dead link

Belfast Bookworm said...

James; I think it could be recycled certainly, but I personally think the fact that religion being taught in schools is a huge part of the problem. For me, religion and education should be separated. It should have no place in any school.

In integrated schools here, children are separated to be taught their respective religions. RE is timetabled into their day and taigs go to one place, prods to another - how can this be truly integrative? It's highlighting difference surely?

AM said...

Simon,

I don't believe the British would have used the shoot-to-kill policy on
loyalists.


I think that's right. The loyalists felt it too. When a car load of them were stopped by the cops on the Falls about 91 they said 'don't shoot we are loyalists.'

I remember writing at the time that the resposnse of the cops was 'we won't shoot we are loyalists too.'

itsjustmacker said...

Anthony.

Thanks for that info, cant understand why those two links are dead. Tested them from my computer before posting them.

itsjustmacker said...

Timeline of UVF Murders and bombings

chris said...

To learn why Sen. George Mitchel, on behalf of the U.S., caused, along with MI5/Fr. Alex Reid, the GFA hand-over of the till-then disputed Six Counties, go to page 450 of Voices From the Grave. There, in David Irvine's words are what the U.S. State Dept's "Head of The Britain Desk" informed him: "The IRA don't have Buccaneer bombers, they don't have aircraft carriers, and we need to sew up the British Exchequer for our upcoming wars" And we all looked at him and he said; "Islamic Fundamentalism."

AM said...

good piece here from a guest writer on Tommy McKearney’s blog

marty said...

That was a good post on Tommy,s blog indeed Anthony,and very factual, however it misses the point re the recent upsurge in violence.it has nothing to do with either "flegs" or social deprivation in loyalist areas,this dup uu inspired attack on the alliance party has been hijacked by gangsters and drug dealers within the uvf to try and force a rethink by het into their past activities,I suspect as do many others that mi5 have their gruggy hands in this.the fact that the most socially deprived areas are in nationalist districts should be hammered home to those loyalist counterparts of Gorbels Gibney,but then you cant see quisling $inn £ein wanting to flag that piece of information up. .

Belfast Bookworm said...

A great piece, but Feargal has only analysed and documented what people who actually want to understand the real reasons and work to change them, know already.

'This entails focusing on accurate facts and objective need when distributing the requisite resources that our citizens are entitled to.'

Objective need - and therein lies the answer.

It'd be interesting to know many reports, needs assessments, impact assessments, feasibility studies have been skewed or indeed buried altogether in a bid to distribute monies and resources where they werent needed.

AM said...

trust you Marty! Great joke


itsjustmacker said...

This is an interesting site.
Lots of info on it .

Secret Bases and SAS

Feel te love said...

The time is long overdue for SF to have the PSNI brought to account for their lack of actions regarding the arrest and prosicution of the thugs on the street displaying naked sectarianism and a disregard for a democratic decisions. How can nationalists support a police force that undermines the rule of law itself.The difference in responses to natioalists peacefully protesting on the Crumlin road and these loyalist bully boys is staggering and sickening.

If there is to be a shared future,it must be based on equality.At present I am struggling to see this ever happening with how unionist politicians have been behaving.Remember MMCG standing with Robinson and called republicans traitors!. Ihe time is here SF,cop on and represent nationalists/republicans and stop pandering to the sectarian biggots within the DUP.

itsjustmacker said...

Feel Te Love.

"The time is long overdue for SF to have the PSNI brought to account"

SF have no say and no clout in the matter of policing.

"If there is to be a shared future,it must be based on equality."

There is no equality, the incident you mentioned on the Crumlin Rd,Ardoyne just says it all, One law for them, a different law for nationalists.

marty said...

feel te love a cara your living in cloud cuckoo land if you have any faith whatsoever in quisling $inn £ein,that pathetic schemer Mc Guinness has been full of praise for Batt Maggott the chief cuntsnotable,his incompetence and cavalier approach to the dup /uu inspired fleg disorder hijacked by drug dealers in the uvf is nothing short of disgusting, if this was any other part of the uk the calls for Baggotts head would be deafening,but instead we have Martybhroy praising his fellow waster,so much for q$£,s outreach programme or their equality agenda,the dup have made quisling $inn £ein to look like the muppets they really are,anyone left who has faith in these carpetbaggers ability to deliver is seriously deluded...

Feel te love said...

Just dropped out of cloud cuckoo land to let some of you know, that I am no supporter of SF. That does nt exclude the possibility that they may have taken the right course, for them. They are veiwed now,in a simular fashion to the way republicans,used to veiw the SDLP.

marty said...

Feel te love "that they may have taken the right course for them" well that says it all a cara so much for the cause, dear old Ireland, a socialist republic, no it a total volte face in everything that prm set out to achieve and so many died for,they are indeed viewed they way republicans viewed the stoops with contempt.the difference being that the stoops have clean hands and their position has remained fairly constant, unlike quisling $inn £ein whose somersaults and u-turns would make most acrobats green with envy.

Robert said...

Frankie & itsjustcrackers,

I think you both missed the irony in what I had suggested.

Robert said...

Marty,

A belated happy new year to you too!

marty said...

Robert I wish you a peaceful and happy new year also a cara, and hope that someone with your obvious communication skills will enlighten those kids who are being manipulated by gangsters and thugs that there is a better way..generations of republicans and loyalists can attest to this.

Feel te love said...

I dont like or agree with much of what SF have done Marty.The manner in which they went about things is galling.How they systematically cut away what they would regard as opposing voices and or the cannon fodder that helped put them where they are now.It is makes me angry the latter but it would be foolish of me to ignore the common sense that applyies to much of what they are doing.The current crop of SF will never have my support but I feel this will change in time when those that seem to be hypocrates are retired.It is easier for me to listen to some of the younger party than those that led us durring the war.

larry hughes said...

feel the love

100%

marty said...

Feel te love I cant see anything that I can apply to quisling $inn £ein that can be common sense,their record in govt here has been abysmal.a socialist party voting to implement welfare cuts for fuck sake,their lack of backbone re housing in north Belfast is pathetic,their endorsement of a very obvious bigoted police chief is what one would expect from quislings,their socialist party leader who has opposed private health care was,nt to slow in getting his arse fixed privately more of do as I say not as I do,granted they have a few people who can express themselves eloquently,but these to must be judged in the round,ie, they are carpetbaggers riding on a q$£ high, just ambitious wannabes,the old guard who you refer to as hypocrites will indeed be pushed aside eventually but by even bigger and more devious hypocrites,they are following the sticks all the way hopefully they,l end up in the same place..

itsjustmacker said...

Robert:

Belated Seasons Greetings and a peaceful and prosperous new year to yourself and family.

"I think you both missed the irony in what I had suggested"..

Enlighten me please, were have a misread your post?

Feel te love said...

Marty it is quite obvious that you have had a bad experience/s in dealings with these people. By harboring such feelings,you may well be doing yourself harm.There are not many of us that SF, or our former commrades would give a toss about.I know they are living of the efforts of a couple of generations of republicans,that includes their contributions but that is just the way the cards fell. I dont like wasting my time hating them but i cant change how i feel about them,although I have changed the negative effect it was having on me. As for the party of SFs ineptness,well that is because they were a one issue group of people,they are not econimists and have little understanding of high fianance.They have moved on and dont even care that we exist,we are the relative the family dont like turninng up at the wedding.We have no futher use to our former commrades,unless they feel we have something they want from us.

AM said...

Feel te love,

what is it you find interesting from the younger ones but not the older?

itsjustmacker said...

Anthony.

"what is it you find interesting from the younger ones but not the older?"

you beat me to that question, feel te love seems to seems to think by relating to SF younger generation it will benefit him?.

Fell Te Love.

Try speaking to anti treaty ex combatants, "older yes", but we are the ones who could see what was happening, now what do you make of this, "In February 1994 I pointed out in my Presidential
address to the Ard Fheis that "Irish republicans, by
ourselves, simply do not possess the political
strength" to bring about Irish unity."
.
That was Adams speaking at the Sinn Féin Ard Fheis 1998. I said to myself, wtf is he on about?, he is the one with McGuinness who called the ceasefire!!! , Is he trying to fob us off with , the Loyalist are just going to give it to us on a plate, like, hey Gerry,lets have a republic we will split the profits, Adams is one shrewd mother fucker,but not just him, McGuinness was in it all along with Morrison and others ,he has sold us down the drain. Now I know I was correct in my thinking,, but not only me. So if you think its easier to talk to the younger generation, who have not been in the war, but, are being brainwashed by SF, so be it. My advice to you is, Read, ask questions from the older generation, We DON'T BITE YOU KNOW.

Belfast Bookworm said...

Gerry Kelly put his foot in it the other night on the Nolan show;

'we are 14 years into GFA and weve done all right out of it'

The crowd jeered and even he had to laugh. Faux pas anyone?

marty said...

Feel te love I have had no experience/dealings with the dup yet they disgust me as much as quisling $inn £ein, just the other side of an inept and bigoted coin, and as full of carpetbaggers as q$£."there are not many of us that sf would give a toss about" well a cara that initself should answer all your questions after all most people who get involved in politics do so because they do care.

marty said...

Feel te love I have had no experience/dealings with the dup yet they disgust me as much as quisling $inn £ein, just the other side of an inept and bigoted coin, and as full of carpetbaggers as q$£."there are not many of us that sf would give a toss about" well a cara that initself should answer all your questions after all most people who get involved in politics do so because they do care.

Feel te love said...

Mackers I dont find them interesting, young or old.Hearing a former leader of the IRA like MMCG talking the way he does,has me cringing for so many reasons and I find it unacceptable,to me.I feel betrayed by MMCG because we were part of the same army.Pearse Doherty and the likes dont generate those same negative emotions of anger in me.This could be due to the fact that Pearse and his likes have not been sending people out to shoot & bomb one day and calling them traitors on another day because you dont agree with SF statedgy or because you still believe the brits only listen to the bomb & bullet. I am not registered to vote and if I ever did it would only be to participate in a border poll.AS a rule I dont like nor trust most politicians. When some of the lads on here post I fully understand where they are coming from.SF cause to much conflict within me because of the many faces and tongues they present and speak with.Case in point they impliment cuts at the behest of thier whitehall employers and then try and portray themselves as the champions of the working class or poor in the free sate.they are employing the tactic of start at the grassroots and when you can attract the middle class and gain more influence you move on.All the while the party and the policies change,different emphassis is put on different things and people.This direction leads you towards becoming the new FF/FG.When you reach that point you have become what you opposed and have neglected your origins.The cycle begins again with another bunch of I am going change the worlders.Those radicals that have been causing so much disruption on the roads lately are just being led by those they hate and are frustrated at in to a simular process.Though once the trouble stops they will be thrown to the wolves.

frankie said...

Here's a solution about the flag. We keep the design of the union flag but change the blue to green, red to orange and white stays white..

It's just an idea folks..

larry hughes said...

itsjustmacker

i agree with 'feel the love' regarding marty having had a bad political experience with SF, sure who didn't? But why continue tormenting yourself? They simply proved to be politicians like the rest of the scum.

Water will find its own level politically in the north and through time the hun nazis simply wont count. Enjoy your life, site back and enjoy the hun-state (what's left of it) decompose before your eyes.

Arlene Foster just confirms to me the huns are not worth pampering. stuff it right up-em!

Belfast Bookworm said...

I often wonder just how bad unionist political leaders can get at their own PR.

If I was one I'd be screaming it from the rooftops that they'd won, the IRA lost and their wee country is safer than ever.

PSF are so smart and good at PR that they've convinced their grass roots they won when they didn't and unionists are so stupid and crap at selling themselves that their people think they lost, when in fact they won.

Unionists have done great out if the GFA. It baffles me why they don't grasp this.

AM said...

Belfast Bookworm,

just watched a recording of The View and have to agree with you. Adams was woeful in his argument about the border poll. He made Arleen Foster, May Blood and Michael McGimpsey sound astute observers.

With him pushing it we can rest assured it is not going to happen. Why there is not one every ten years rather than allowing the Brits to decide is even further evidence of how little republicanism got out of the GFA.

Belfast Bookworm said...

Anthony; 'how little republicanism got out of the GFA'

But you have to hand it to them (SF) at how well they've played it out. People out there genuinely believe republicans 'won' thanks to the spin the shinners have worked.

They've ((SF) painted an illusion of equality, justice etc - basically the crumbs off the tables of the powerheads, and nationalists think this is great. Quite understandable for nationalists, but when republicans start believing it that's when we run into real problems.

The shinners pay lip service to a united Ireland every chance they get but I have forgotten the last time they really went for the 32 county socialist republic debate. They've nailed the whole thing if the truth be told. They were the better spin doctors.

Meanwhile, you have idiotic young loyalists rioting over a fleg, that became more than a fleg, that became not about the fleg at all and people like Larry saying he'll vote SF again.

Confused?

AM said...

Belfast Bookworm,

I think people were glad the war had ended. It allowed them to breathe a little more freely. I don't know if people really believe SF won. They do feel they made significant progress within the Northern state. Even some of the most loyal Shinners have been commenting that what is in place now is not what was fought for, but they will stick with it as it is progress.

Larry will no more vote SF than I will. He is yanking the chains to get a rise.

frankie said...

I heard Gerry Kelly's gaff too Bookworm. At least he was telling the truth (can't slate him for that). He did have a very valid point when he said the PUL's anger is misdirected at the Alliance party. It should be at SF/SDLP.

And when Nolan asked him directly as to why Robinson & McGuinness haven't stood shoulder to shoulder publicly and denounced the violence, his response was interesting (McGuinness has asked but Peter has yet to do it).

Why wont Peter do as he did over Massereene & Ardoyne and condeme the violence shoulder to shoulder Martin? Answers on a postcard to the TPQ....winner gets a yrs subscription to here

larry hughes said...

mackers

'Larry will no more vote SF than I will. He is yanking the chains to get a rise'.

How could you!! i feel so naked and exposed!!!

Belfast Bookworm said...

Well thank God and his holy mother for that - Larry I mean. I thought all had been lost!

I agree with you regarding people needing breathing space. Our people were war weary and who could blame us?

I'd disagree with you though re people believing SF won. Certainly the 'old hands' who know the craic won't say this, but the new shinners do and I think it's more than whistling in the dark, I think they truly believe it.

Belfast Bookworm said...

Frankie; 'He did have a very valid point when he said the PUL's anger is misdirected at the Alliance party. It should be at SF/SDLP.'

Maybe, for the flag issue. But in general their anger should be directed at their own political leaders surely? If they're feeling disenfranchised, polarised etc etc then they should be making their own reps accountable.

If I was feeling like that I wouldn't be blaming anyone other than my own elected reps because they are supposed to represent me. My anger wouldn't be directed at dup, uup or anyone else - I would expect nothing of them, I would be under no illusion that they would fight my comer for even the smallest issue so anger at them would be futile.

Is this too rationale maybe?

frankie said...

Bookworm, if I was from the PUL community, I call what you said an honest appraisal. They are smarting from their own apathy and lashing out.

Bookworm you said you have a problem trying to get your head around the protests/violence. Jim Wilson has the same problem.

AM said...

Belfast Bookworm,

it never ceases to bemuse or even amuse that those who never fought it can claim to have won it.

Belfast Bookworm said...

Frankie; Jim Wilson has to be the first person in the history of Ireland to say 'we started it'. I think he could've bitten off his Tongue once he did though.

But he says he is a community worker which indicates he is being paid to do a job. Why isn't he doing it? A community workers job is to develop their community, to educate, build capacity and empower. This clearly hasnt and isn't being done in east Belfast and is being demonstrated even in the fact that that community doesn't appear to know what they're actually protesting against or who they're angry with.

They seem to think a flag is their 'culture' or 'britishness'. No one appears to have told anyone that these things are actually an experience or journey or sense of something.

Jim Wilson should give his wages back to DSD or whoever pays him.

Anthony; leave Michael Henry alone!

frankie said...

Something else the PUL community are pissed off with (and have been for a very long time). They have no real sense of a culture or identity. The Scottish, Welsh and English see themselves as British but each of them have their own seperate identities. Take out the 12th July Loyal Order marches and there isn't much else for the PUL community in the north to celebrate (thats on the surface).

If any community worker is reading this..Why don't you start talking about the shared cultural identity and shared history on both sides of the oxymormons a lot more. For example some the best writers to come from Ireland were protestants. Their grandfathers (like the PUL community claim today), came across during the plantations. But they seen themselves as Irish first and talked about irish affairs and injustices. Musically the divide has been crossed. Van the man has made trad Irish music with the Chieftans (so has James Galway), the fiddle is a big part in the sound of trad Irish music but the instrument and sound came from Scotland (PUL heritage).. You could talk about actors who have united the divide, sports men & women. And there is more than a cross pollenation between Ulster-Scots lang and the Irish lang. Art work is the same.. You have to make people understand that when you take Britian out of the equation, the two cultures are very close (Ulster-Scots & Irish).

In a nutshell, the PUL community need to rediscover their sense of celtness and not be embarrassed about their Irishness

Another rant to the Folks on the hill, stop of pussy footing about, set a date for knocking down the oxymorons (keep one or two and dress them up like Checkpoint Charlie<--to fleece American & Japaneses tourists..). Fellas, on the other side of the pond Americans stage manage mock battles of their civil war. And everyone goes home fed & watered and familes have a good day out. A mock battle of the Boyne, properly staged managed to fleece more tourists isn't rocket science to figure out (you must tell it as it was, a small battle in a European war that we are still paying the price for).

Belfast Bookworm said...

Frankie; fair points. But if I was a community worker in a Protestant community I wouldn't be trying to 'unite the divide'. This shared history/future nonsense isn't working - they're (community relations council, various city councils, ofmdfm) are throwing money at it and apart from a few junkets, no real progress has been made.

I'd be working to show how British imperialism was and is the root cause of the problems here and that not only have Catholics suffered as a result, but working class Protestants too.

Until they understand this there's no way forward in my opinion.

AM said...

AM said...

Experience is a good teacher and what it has taught thus far is that there will be no united working class in the North that can manage to jump the constitutional fence. We have heard the critique of class reductionism so often that it surprises me somewhat that people think a class should carry an ideology around on its back like a car does a number plate (that is an analogy taken from Nicos Poulantzas).

That does not mean that common cause should not be struck with loyalists where it can be to the betterment of society. But it is going to be single issues, not all embracing.

When I have spoken with loyalists about left wing issues they perform the same song but want it sung on a different stage. They don’t buy into the notion that the position of the working class throughout Ireland will be improved by Irish unity. And they also seem to take the position that there is more room for left wing politics in London than in Dublin.

Alec said...

AM,

I think you are spot on here. Class reductionism, to use your own term, is a form of false consciousness afflicting many on the left.

It appears to me that the protestant working class people identify more with religious and cultural markers than with class.

I would refer to the famous public debate between Connolly and Walker on this very issue. Walker, as a unionist, was quite willing to considedr some form of social demoracy so long as it did not compromise the constitutional position. The link with the British labour movement was strongly prefered over the creation of a revolutionary socialist political party firmly rooted in Irish affairs and commited to Irish unity.

The sticks and most of the Irish left have promoted the idea of working class unity as a pre condition for unification. If the blight of sectarianism could be replaced with a genuine working class solidarity then real progress could be made towards our collective goals.

This is a reducitionist viewpoint that ignores concrete historical realities.

AM said...

James,

some of the people who got involved could be described as self serving psychopaths, sociopaths and undesirables with nothing else to offer ... Often in times of war history teaches us that a psychopath often becomes a hero, in times of peace he becomes a psychopath.

Hasn’t been an army yet that was free of the type. A more important question would seem to be what systemic failures caused organisations to exist that such people and many other people could join?

Sean said...

Reply to Alec,

To be fair I dont think the 'protestant working class' are the only ones who identify more with religion and cultural. The reality is most people in the North identify with this hence the GFA etc.

I can't speak on behalf of the rest of left but certainly anarchists dont believe everything can be reduced to class. For example in the latest Irish anarchist review Paul points out in his article on'Rethinking Class: From Recomposition to Counterpower' that

''The class line remains the San Andreas fault-line of capitalist society. It remains the only fault-line with the power to create a rupture strong enough to bring down the whole edifice of the capitalist social order. This remains as true today as it was at the beginning of capitalist class society. In answer to the question we posed ourselves at the start of this article - is class still a useful tool for the project of social transformation - we can conclude that it is not only useful but necessary.

Simply put, so long as the majority of people do not perceive their material interests to be in some way fundamentally in conflict with the basic mechanics of capitalism, then so long will the project of ending capitalism with the consent and participation of the vast majority of society remain a pipe dream. To paraphrase Voltaire’s quip about the necessity of inventing god, just because class really does exist, does not mean it isn’t necessary to continually re-invent it. Today, in the 21st century, the project of the recomposition of an antagonistic class counterpower that can not only resist capital, but work towards its destruction remains as vital as ever.''

Its not the the left promotes working class unity as pre-requesit for irish unity. To me it is much more than that because i dont believe as I have heard from some republicans that irish unity will end sectarianism. Afterall, sectarianism, nationalism and unionism pre-dates partition and with our without Britain's involvement one could easily make an argument for the sake of is that given these 'historical realities' partition and ''çarnival of reaction'' was inevitable.

BTW, Im not suggesting that Britain's role in Ireland is one of a neutral peacemaker because clearly the evidence suggests otherwise( collusion, state terrorism) and the forces of imperialism always have their own agenda.

Lastly the partition of Ireland is no more artificial than any other state which are artificial lines on the map, imposed by squabbling ruling classes (for example the scramble of africa). We need to look beyond the the state if we are to solve some of the key questions in the 21st century in relation to wars, imperialism etc.

It is worth referring to the german anarchist syndicalist Rudolf Rocker on the subject of nationalism and patriotism; “we must not forget that we are always dealing with the organised selfishness of privileged minorities which hide behind the skirts of the nation, hide behind the credulity of the masses. We speak of national interests, national capital, national spheres of interest, national honour, and national spirit; but we forget that behind all this there are hidden merely the selfish interests of power-loving politicians and money-loving business men for whom the nation is a convenient cover to hide their personal greed and their schemes for political power from the eyes of the world.’

AM said...

Belfast Bookworm,

I think the question you pose is apt. Nobody has yet come up with a way of enlisting the support of the Unionist working class. All the Marxist class analysis has proved futile.

Unfortunately the constitutional issue has been one nut that supposed class unity has failed to crack.

Belfast Bookworm said...

Anthony; I honestly despair of convincing loyalists of the merits of working class unity - and I'm bored trying to convince myself they can be convinced.

Last year (or maybe two years ago) the International Brigade committee erected a plaque on the house that was the birthplace of Liam Tumlinson. All was well. Brigadista Tumlinson was the pride of east Belfast, an heroic anti-fascist Protestant who went hell for leather in Spain, standing up for the rights of workers everywhere. However it was soon discovered that Tumlinson was also an ira volunteer, trying to rid his own country of the fascists like thse he he fought in Jarama...and so the plaque was promptly removed.

That blew my mind. If so-called socialists from the Protestant community can do that then how can they consider themselves socialist?

AM said...

Ulster Loyalism, Flag Protests & the failure

Feel te love,


I feel betrayed by MMCG because we were part of the same army. Pearse Doherty and the likes don’t generate those same negative emotions of anger in me.

I think many will identify with that sentiment