Wednesday, December 26, 2012

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Standing Outside The Peace Process

Introduction

The Ard Comhairle of Republican Network for Unity wishes to thank you for taking the time to read this, our position paper on what is commonly referred to as the ‘Irish Peace Process’.

This piece is intended as a precursor to a much more substantial and substantive set of policy documents that will be collectively entitled ‘Revolutionary Republicanism’, due to be released in early 2013.

Standing outside the peace process is a basic outline of where we believe Republicanism stands within today’s Irish political system, how we think it arrived at this position and why as Irish Republican Socialists, we do not conform to the modern political set up In Ireland.

The main aim of this position paper is to lay the groundwork for the release of ‘Revolutionary Republicanism’ as well as to provoke and encourage debate and critical engagement on a wide range of issues which that work intends to address.

Issues addressed within ‘Revolutionary Republicanism’ will range from our position on Armed Struggle to suggestions for possible socialist economic frameworks for a New Ireland.

RNU would urge all republicans and socialists to engage with our future policy documents as well as to bring their own visions of the revolutionary alternative, which Irish society requires now more than ever.


Where Hope Met History?

The Good Friday Agreement of 1998 was marketed to the Irish people as the Panacea between war and peace. Designed in the hangover of a long, vicious and bitter conflict between Republicanism and the British state, its advocates claimed it was the only alternative to a horrible war which had touched almost every family in the six counties and many beyond that.

The real and bitter suffering endured by so many as a result of that conflict - from actual loss of life and liberty, to the long list of other negative legacies which arise from a long war - made selling the GFA to the people much easier and in particular to the republican and nationalist community, in which there was little or no debate as to the long term political merits of the Agreement itself.

State directed Loyalist death squads such as the LVF and UFF still hovered menacingly over the Catholic community in the years during which the GFA was designed. This spectre of random sectarian murder reminded the Catholic community that a heavy price could be extracted from them, should republicans continue to pursue revolutionary goals in their name.

In practice, the threat from these state sponsored killer gangs along with the continued presence of the British army and RUC provided a deadly coercive influence which made acceptance of the GFA vitally important to the average Catholic/Nationalist voter in 1998.

When packaged as a ‘vote for peace’ there was little doubt that the nationalist population would tick the box marked ‘Yes’, and following strong lobbying from both Sinn Fein and the SDLP, this is precisely what happened. This same dynamic existed at the time of the Anglo Irish treaty in 1922, when Britain evoked the threat of ‘immediate and terrible war’ in a bid to coerce the people into voting in a way they saw fit.

There was no option for Irish unity on the ballot papers, and if there had been it would hardly have mattered as the outcome of the northern vote [pre-Determined as it was by partition itself] held supreme, regardless of what the rest of the Island wished for.

In this way, the Good Friday Referenda were in reality a continuation of the old partitionist dynamics of the early 1920s, made possible by the same gerrymandered voting arrangements and the same threat of British/Loyalist violence, as had been practiced many decades earlier. Irish history had merely came full circle and found itself back at square one, bar a series of reformist and cosmetic gestures designed to smooth the transition of the IRA into a constitutional movement, entirely absorbed into Sinn Fein structures.

Given that the [once revolutionary] Provisional leadership had by this stage, committed itself to constitutional politics alone, there was little to be gained by them from criticising the internal workings of the Agreement itself.

Furthermore, the failure of Republican negotiators to provide basic safeguards for former combatants and prisoners in the GFA raises questions as to just how far they were willing to turn their backs on activists amongst their own ranks, (not to mention future political prisoners) in the pursuit of political ambition.

Good Friday even provided for the imprisonment of its own supporters, as was later seen in the case of Sinn Fein representative Gerry McGeough, who upon voicing disapproval at his party’s support for the PSNI found himself arrested and imprisoned for actions he undertook decades earlier in a time of war.

Many other former republican prisoners have had their release licences revoked in response to voicing or acting in a fashion critical of the Good Friday Agreement, and in effect hundreds of former POWs are today being held as hostages of their own conscience as a result, fearful of being returned to Gaol should they resume revolutionary politics.

And if Sinn Fein could get things so wrong on the welfare of Republican prisoners, then the question must be asked, did they get it wrong on the constitutional issue also?

The virtual interment of its political opponents today along with the coercion of the wider Nationalist population in 1998 shows just how counter revolutionary a settlement the GFA actually was.

However, it is its many other aspects and dynamics which also dispel utterly, claims that the Good Friday Agreement could be used as a vehicle to deliver credible republican aspirations, and which explain why true revolutionaries, Irish republican socialists can have no truck with it.


Inherently Sectarian, Inherently Partitionist, Inherently Capitalist

Despite being marketed as the key to ‘ending Sectarian conflict in Ireland’, the GFA is in fact a sectarian settlement, with sectarian values at its heart and a guaranteed sectarian outcome if it remains the only vision for political progress in Ireland.

From its internal clauses regarding ‘Parity of esteem’ to the constitutional out workings and daily running of its Stormont executive, the entire world view of the GFA presumes and supports a view of Irish society in which Sectarian divisions are inevitable and even natural.

RNU, as revolutionary republican socialists, as followers of Tone and McCracken, reject this ‘two communities’ vision, which the GFA enshrines as the cultural and social model around which we should base our future.

We reject the notion that historical discrimination practiced upon the Catholics of the north, can or should be crudely addressed by simply pointing to the lot of the protestant working class and demanding the same for ‘our side’, as is proposed by supporters of the GFA.

This eschewed view of equality creates only mistrust and deliberately lowers working class aspirations; it is exploited by the rich who take comfort in working class division and postpones the day when protestant & catholic workers unite in a true common struggle.

That is in the national and class struggle to secure for the working class of Ireland the ownership of Ireland and all its resources to be used for the common good.

In this sense we are truly anti-sectarian, we don’t seek equality ‘between two communities’, we seek to destroy sectarian distinctions altogether in the course of struggle to achieve a New Ireland. This places us apart from the pro- GFA parties, whose values accept sectarian division and see them as inevitable, regardless of what they claim to profess.

We seek to create a united Irish working class, united not within a national or communal identity but in common purpose for progressive human gain.

Stormont and British politicians, as well as the Capitalist business elite here, recognise the benefits of maintaining sectarian divisions within our communities.

They see that divisions within our ranks serve their financial and political interests, and they therefore place little importance on ending them.

We need only point to the example of the 1936 cross community ‘outdoor relief riots’ to emphasise the revolutionary potential of protestant and catholic working class communities rising above the identity brackets assigned to them by church and state here.

And when we consider the potent results of this real example of class unity, then we can fully understand why the ‘powers that be’ have little interest in allowing true unity happen today; why they allow sectarianism to continue, in the form of the Good Friday Agreement.

Politicians understand that it is much easier to implement Anti-Working class cuts, such as the ‘Welfare Reform Bill’ or merely to deny workers basic rights and conditions, if the working class base sees itself as divided into two hostile factions incapable of uniting in common cause.

This dividing factor was used by the Orange boss class and the Catholic Church for hundreds of years here, and its negative influence continues today via the workings of the GFA.


A Vehicle for Irish Unity?

The Good Friday Agreement allowed for nationalists to express aspirational preferences towards nationalist goals in a way that Britain had virtually criminalised in previous decades. However it was in effect a series of stage managed concession and of zero use to revolutionary republican intentions.

Stereotyped cosmetic gestures, tolerable to Britain (once the IRA campaign was over) were given government approval. Official recognition of the Irish language and the reduced usage of unionist trappings within government bodies, Policing and the courts were presented to the nationalist people as compensation for relinquishing their demands for full self-determination from Britain.

Clauses celebrated by Nationalist politicians as mechanisms to be used in the pursuit of unity were outlined in the ‘Strand 3’ section of the Good Friday Agreement. However even a cursory look at ‘Strand 3’ reveals a continuation of the old Unionist Veto (aka, the Principle of consent), whereby the wishes of the guaranteed Unionist majority within the gerrymandered 6 counties remains supreme.

At best, Strand 3 mechanisms amounted to an allowance for the northern population to campaign for the ‘triggering’ of a border poll, which itself could only be authorised by a British secretary of state if he believed there was a reasonable chance of a majority ‘yes’ vote within the six county area.

This mechanism could, we were told, be worked towards while also attempting to maximise the influence of cross border governmental bodies (i.e. the North/South ministerial council) and cross border trading and economic initiatives, in a ‘great experiment’ to effectively make the border disappear. Again, the value of such a political dynamic is alien to revolutionary republicans.

Not only because it accepts that Britain has a right to set the conditions for Irish independence, but because it presumes that eventual moves towards independence can only arise from a ‘greening of the north’, (that is the promotion of nationalist electoral identity within the six county area) whilst immersing the same national movement in capitalist economics, albeit on an all-Ireland level.

We believe, that not only are strategies to secure such constitutional solutions in the north unrealistic (all polls refute their likelihood in this generation), their widespread promotion would, if taken seriously, spark off sectarian resentment and communal withdrawal, which would place revolutionary politics in jeopardy to the point where apparent nationalist tactics would actually prove a hindrance to republican goals.


Capitalist exploitation of the GFA.

Multinational corporations and worldwide business investors took great interest in the Irish “peace process”. Post GFA Ireland to them was marketed as a place where people would work for very little and where tax breaks would be available to Billionaire business owners, in return for setting up shop here. Indeed both the global and Irish financial elites promoted the GFA in order to generate future profits.

The deeply pro-business action group The Portland Trust can proudly cite how…

Leading business organisations and businessmen formed the Group of Seven (Irish G7) in 1996 to argue the economic merits of peace. Without ever explicitly calling for a ‘Yes’ vote in the referendum that ratified the Agreement, the G7 ensured, through conspicuous public advocacy, that voters understood the Agreement would be good for business.

Ten years on from the GFA, direct investment from the US increased and came to account for 10% of the jobs in the 6 counties. However the investor’s motives were far from pure.

Again the Portland Trust confirm…

To take one example, in January 2005 Citigroup chose to locate one its IT centres in Belfast, promising an investment of $100 million over five years and 375 new jobs. Citigroup was drawn to Northern Ireland by a workforce that, while possessing world-class technical skills, earns wages some 30% lower that its counterparts in England or the Republic of Ireland. Invest Northern Ireland (formerly the Industrial Development Board or IDB), the governmental agency that promotes inward Investment, provided $12.6 million to support the project.

Many multi-national firms took advantage of these incentives, and throughout the years of the ill-fated ‘Celtic tiger’, the arrival of a plethora of factories, industrial estates, jobs and the subsequent appearance of wealth was held up as evidence of the success of the Good Friday Agreement.

In reality, the firms involved in setting up here post GFA, were here only to make a quick profit and please their shareholders, not to help ease the suffering of the people of Ireland.

Indeed when the inevitable world-wide recession hit, these companies (many having maxed out their tax breaks), packed up and left as quickly as they had arrived, leaving the Irish worker with nothing but a hangover from an ‘economic miracle’ which was in fact no more than a temporary illusion.

Post-recession colossal job losses in the north including a massive four day 2% wipe out of the manufacturing sector, have in a very brutal fashion demonstrated to the population how for more than a decade they had been duped into believing that the post Good Friday era would be one of endless financial opportunity and prosperity.


The Roots of the Illusion

Of course what we were seeing was politically motivated investment; business development grants, tax relief and subsidies, these were the elements which really provided for the changing city skylines.

The apartments, office blocks, call centres, and an army of cranes had little to do with a naturally growing, healthy indigenous economy, it was the result of a political settlement which saw the population of the six county state being groomed into a pool of cheap labour, and in an environment free from Republican resistance.

This was the ultimate goal of the Good Friday Agreement.


Who are the ‘dissidents’?

In this false environment, many recognised the flaws, and chose instead to hold on to revolutionary ideologies; the ways of Tone, Connolly and Bobby Sands.

Contrary to state and constitutional nationalist propaganda, most of those who dissented from the GFA were principled republicans and socialists. Yet they were relegated to the position of the lunatic or be grudger, as the lifestyles of one time rebellious figures were changed beyond recognition.

Now constitutional republicans became landlords, speculators and property developers and in turn were lauded by once radical newspapers at business award dinners attended by PSNI chief constables and DUP stalwarts.

Together and with the backing of the international business elite, these elements tried and almost succeeded in creating a new universal ethic here. In republican districts a conservative world- view was promoted by politicians across the spectrum, as well as by non-elected community leaders and partisan journalists, themselves with a stake in the new economy and who were bound by the demands of Unionist pre-conditions and vetoes.

Community solidarity, of the type which had seen working class districts stand by each other in the face of cutbacks, poverty, anti-social behaviour and state aggression was discredited by party workers and community leaders who floated initiatives such as business centred health care, a gradual acceptance of water charges and reliance on the PSNI/RUC.

Community cohesion was further corroded by an encouraged culture of ‘home ownership’ a condition which by accident or design has tamed once radical communities, tying many key individuals to a slavish combination of low wages and ever demanding high mortgages.

This social taming measure had been a central plank of Margaret Thatcher’s socio-economic vision for Britain during her time in government and explained the mass selloff of council housing during her time.

Even at an early stage, some journalists with conviction and sensing that the economic ‘boom’ here was not altogether natural and spontaneous, rightly dubbed what was happening as ‘the feel good factor’, an essential and designed element in the process of securing the ‘peace process’.

By the 1990s and with the undeniable jettisoning of all socialist rhetoric by Sinn Fein, ‘number 10’s’ carrot and stick approach to ending Irish Resistance was allowed a clear run. Nationalisms’ reward for co-operation with the British state came in the form of incentives to investment along with the strategic funding of an array of paid community posts pre-allocated to local republicans of influence, tying them into the taming and controlling influence of the mortgage culture, a culture which it was now in their personal interests to maintain.

Following the Signing of the GFA financial incentive programmes went into hyper mode, inviting a scramble by international business’ to get here and avail of now famous tax relief packages, grants and subsidies, and buoyed by promises of the type made quite recently by Deputy minister Martin McGuiness on US business trips, ie: ‘the north is open for business’, code for we offer the lowest paid work force in the “United Kingdom”.

Few would have criticised the northern working class for embracing the sparse benefits of this new system, for many young families it provided (albeit for a short period) the impression that they could prosper and be rewarded for their efforts, in a secure job and a peaceful environment.

Indeed it was difficult to even question the apparent economic successes here without sounding like a ‘mad rebel clutching at straws’ that was at least until recent times, when it seems that the artificial ‘feel good factor’ has passed its sell by date. It is beyond doubt, that those who refused to concede or conform to the GFA (referred to as ‘dissident republicans) were isolated from Irish society, to the point in which they became politically powerless - and some - politically inactive. And in this vacuum it is possible that some mistakes were made, mistakes which perhaps did little to help our overall world view or cause.

However it is understandable that with the pressure of world opinion, finance and power bearing down on us, dissenting Republicans effectively retreated into the political wilderness. This was not the first time in recent history that Republicanism was pushed to the margins of society, and in such a fashion. This state of cold storage however is thankfully coming to an end, as the contradictions within the GFA become more glaring day by day and Revolutionary Republicans grow in confidence, learning more about these contradictions and exercising their ability to articulate criticism, as well as organise alternatives.


The Illusion Fades

Almost simultaneously to the announcement of PIRA decommissioning, came news of the Stormont assembly’s intention to introduce water charges to the public. They said it was an economic necessity coming just as Gerry Adams’ criticised Westminster’s failure to make available a ‘peace deficit’ here. Lobbying for a ‘peace deficit’ effectively asked that Britain’s former security budget for the north to be ploughed instead into Stormont’s budget, it didn’t happen. Days later arrived a shocking news story of mass job losses at the Seagate factory in County Derry, breaking symptoms of what was soon to be rolled out as the now infamous ‘credit crunch’ or economic global downturn.

As more and more job losses were inflicted upon the six county workforces it became evident to critics of Good Friday that the mass subsidies, incentives and rescue packages (characteristic of pre - 2005 British economic policy) would no longer be forthcoming. It appeared that Britain having secured PIRA decommissioning saw how the potential threat posed by mass disaffection here was nullified. There was no further need to tame the risen Irish Northern working class, it was safe to withdraw subsidies and ‘let whatever happens happen’, and so they did, it is that simple. The only significant British government investment here since has come in the form of MOD contracts to Thales air defence, hardly demonstrating the lack of strategic interest in Ireland that Peter Brooke spoke of in 1990.

And today, whole districts in the north, Protestant and Catholic alike are blighted by serious social problems, problems indirectly related to the conflict here and made worse by both the recent false economy and its resulting anti-social ethic. There exists now, chronic levels of negative equity; heart-breaking cases of working families who had placed their faith in a false economy and had signed up to mortgages which could not be backed up by their employers in the long term.

Thousands now face the real threat of losing their homes as firms are either driven out by the global downturn or (as in the case of Visteon/Ford) simply decide to move onto to a cheaper workforce in the sudden absence of British subsidies, using the recession as a smokescreen. Meanwhile the social fabric of once solid working class republican areas has been severely compromised by individualism; a form of thinking largely brought around by the ‘own your own home’ culture, a culture which not only questions the universal right of every family to own a home unconditionally but arguably contributes to anti-community behaviour, as the ‘look after your own patch’ mind-set takes over what had been a ‘look out for your neighbour’ mind-set in the past.

The complete futility of modern republicanisms’ embracement of the ‘Northern Ireland’ state and its capitalist economy can be seen in Sinn Fein’s inability to protect the recently unemployed in even the sparsest form. Gerry Adams’ (albeit well-meaning) lobbying for decent redundancy packages on behalf of recently shafted Visteon/Ford workers, will if successful hardly be a victory for the workers, it will be no more than a Band-Aid over a shrapnel wound, and with each day comes more news of impending job losses.


Attacks on the Benefit System

And as for the growing dole queues! DHSS Staff cannot keep up with the influx of claimants. Amazingly, following the St. Andrews agreement, politicians here were offered the opportunity to devolve social welfare powers, but they declined. Had they devolved, they would have been able to offset the effect of Westminster’s recent anti-working class welfare measures, such as the welfare reform bill and the lowering of the age of a child at which point a single mother must return to work, or the replacement of incapacity benefit with the American style ESA system.

As it stands the recently unemployed will at the point of claiming benefits take on the role of the ‘undeserving poor’, scrutinised by a department who will hold them responsible for their situation. And always the opportunists, the British army, Navy and Air force are all making the best of people’s desperation with an all-out recruitment drive taking place across the board in the North’s job markets as even a brief visit will demonstrate.

Just where the revolutionary vision of Connolly and Larkin, Pearse and Plunket fits into this scenario is a question which Sinn Fein supporters can now only counter by screaming empty accusations of criminality at ‘dissident’ republicans.


Why Stand Outside the ‘Peace Process’?

We should all at this point ask ourselves the serious question, are we really committed to the Revolutionary Republican Socialist path?

Although they are well meaning, some principled Republicans still campaign solely on the issue of ‘Brits Out’ while being neutral on the economic question; others are unashamed advocates of Capitalism.

This position is a non-starter as it is at best doomed to perpetuate failures of the past and at worst, take us to oblivion. If some are not committed to the revolutionary path - and merely wish to return (solely) to the war politics of the past - then there is no reason to expect that the lure of the economic incentives mentioned above (which did compromise republican leaderships) could not take their toll on them too in future decades.

If that was to be the case, then they would be as well backing the Sinn Fein electoral strategy now instead of later, indeed that is point Sinn Fein spokes-people are making, when they mislead the public by asking RNU to ‘debate’ with them. Those of us who do stand ‘Outside the Peace Process’ do so with good reason, yet we should be aware of those reasons, so as not be lured into similar processes in the future.


The Revolutionary Alternative?

Revolutionary Republicans stand by the belief that the struggle for National Liberation and Socialism should be practiced hand in hand, that the liberators of Ireland will be the working class and that it will be within a duel struggle for control of the ‘National territory’ and the ‘Means of production’ that a worthy freedom will eventually be achieved.

Such a process would take place on our terms (not Britains) but would require the challenging of both communal sectarian identities (green and orange) as well as of capitalist economic priorities in Ireland, cross border though they may be.

In conclusion therefore; RNU view the so called ‘Peace Process’ as in fact inherently sectarian, inherently partitionist and inherently capitalist, promoting ultimately communal division, a continuation of British rule and the dominance of a greedy capitalist class who care little for the economic well being or welfare of the Irish people north or south.

We on the other hand, intend to propose a programme of Revolutionary Republicanism, the encouragement of the Irish working class to peruse a Free Socialist Republic, via all available means of struggle. Not for nationalist or emotional reasons, but for practical and humane reasons and as part of the progressive struggle for control of Irish resources, to be worked for the welfare and future integrity of all our people.

We believe such a path to be the true republican & non-sectarian path, the route towards healing our Nation, and freeing it from Imperial and colonial evils; from corruption, poverty and privilege, instead taking us towards true Irish freedom.

Related Link: http://www.republicannetwork.ie/

117 comments :

Robert said...

'State directed Loyalist death squads such as the LVF and UFF still hovered menacingly over the Catholic community in the years during which the GFA was designed.'

Does Republicanism really believe that it has a right to prosecute war and remain immune to it's consequences? Is it possible that individuals within the community which it is attacking have the intellect and physical ability, outside of state direction, to do something about it?

James said...

Yes, Yes, Yes. Here Here. Very well written and basically on the mark. Nothing in this could be deemed as false or even propaganda as it is very true. I do not know a whole lot about the RNU, but after reading this it sounded very like the Workers Party thinking or even the IRSP. The British and Irish media today has sensationalised the term "Dissident Republicianism" in Ireland to a solely being military. I lean towards WP and the Sinners class me as a dissident. What the GFA copperfastened was a acceptable sectarian state based on tribal preference. The "two communties, equal but different theory" will ensure the Working classes will be divided with the old division of fear, suspicion, them and us mentality. The political elite know this and it is a vote winner every time, all they need is support of their various religion, segragated education and a pro right media to facilitate this thinking to the masses. It is good to see this message being put out there in the present climate of orwellian 1984. There is an alternative to this imaginary "peace process". Who is really benefitting from it 1996 onwards, it certainly is not the masses of the working class who voted these buffons in. At a mayday march, a member of the unions was there with a flag stop the austerity measures, I know the man and I asked him would he be voting SF next time around, he was somewhat taken back at this question,as I knew he previously did. He said no. I personally doubt it. It was one of those "You are telling me nothing, but you are showing me everything moments".Remember when Gerry Adams says the "brand SF is good in the north, before he done his little house on the priare opening credits dance down the field to a TD seat in louth" He didnt come accross as a political leader to me,with the welfare of his constitutents in mind but something of a profit orientated corporate consultant satified with the possible future spoils of "swimming with the capitalist sharks" on both sides of the politcal elite in Ireland. The rise of Hitlers Fascism and poltical SF comes to mind here

AM said...

Robert,

this bears a striking resemblance to the boilerplate republican response to the same type of prompting.

I think you are very right to suggest an autonomy within unionism that could give rise to violent measures independent of the state but that must be heavily qualified by the knowledge we now have about the degree of input to loyalist violence from state personnel. De Silva should cause many within unionism to wonder on what it was they supported during the war years. If it doesn't cause them concern that raises a whole plethora of associated questions.

That does not remove the need for republicans to tackle the whole question of its physical force tradition and the use of political violence. And it should not be done in the self serving manner that SF have trail blazed.

michaelhenry said...

I am glad that i stand inside the Peace Process looking out at the likes of the RNU who support a armed group who never used their arms to kill any brits or cops [ONH]-and who think that the people
in the six countys pay water charges-do the RNU even live here if they do not even know the basic's-dont know which will come first-talks or teach the idiots-

marty said...

Robert a cara firstly a happy and peaceful new year to you, the British as you well know were only to willing to tap into the sectarian hatred stirred up by Paisley.Mc Keauge and the traders of hatred,the outcome as stated we can read in the De Silva report and the police ombudsman,s reports into "loyalist "killings"always an element of collusion and state agents involvement.
This is a good position post from RNU ,I can see where James is coming from when he declares that it sounds like the workers party or the IRSP,it is because there is indeed no propaganda or lies told here.the gfa is a con job designed to demilitarise republicanism by as stated allowing the top tier to become part of the establishment with nice property portfolios as sweetners ,this sectarian carve up was only going to work as long as the majority of working class voters on both sides were benefiting from this "peace dividend" and its here that Pete the punt played a blinder ,he acquired a very healthy amount of inward investment for east Belfast,mind you that was through loyal civil servants and old boy networks,however, west Belfast post gfa remained the same industrial wasteland and if anything was on the downhill slide apart from "community" funded jobs for the party lackeys, hence Adams jumping ship the cute hoor is smart enough to know when the writing is on the wall,so with no economic carrot to tease the republican community and the fear that austerity measures may bring a realignment of workers from either side of the divide that old sectarian card has been re deployed staged managed as before by mi5 and political hostages such as Marian and Martin and show trials on the loyalist side keeps potential allies once again divided.the marching issue and the flag dispute are a god send to both quisling $inn £ein and the dup these issues will keep the working class divided for a long time to come and allow our latter day Nero,s to fiddle away,working class unity or the lack of it is the issue that in my opinion RNU and real socialists from the unionist community need to address with urgency and honesty.

marty said...

18,500 crimes reported in a one mile radius of Albert st lower Falls, thats the peace dividend at work or is it Rome burning?

larry hughes said...

Robert

I can understand your response. However, knowing now how the 'authorities' manipulated, embedded and directed high level informers in both camps leads to a nauseous reality that those supposed 'law and order' forces who endlessly harped on about 'saving-lives' were in fact behind a huge percentage of the killings! At the very least they were doing bugger-all to prevent them regardless of their propoganda.

We now see that the likes of Mark Haddock (Billy Wiright etc etc)was freely murdering up to 14 taigs whilst 'scap' was doing the same, murdering up to 30+ taigs who were security force agents, just like himself. How many Loyalists died in 'security force' shoot to kill incidents? What price a taig?

The scenario beggars belief. So whilst I see your reluctance to lay the blame of loyalist murder gangs flatly at the door of the security forces may I just say it is astounding to now see just how deep was their involvement in murder and mayhem. One can only imagine the fear in Catholic/nationalist areas had the SF propoganda been realised to be the tip of a very filthy security-force iceberg!

Ardoyne Republican said...

I'm very pleased that the Pensive Quill has published the RNU Position Paper, 'Standing Outside the Peace Process. The blog is very well read by people of all political hues and as such, will bring it to a much wider audience.

This is the first in a comprehensive series of Position Papers/Polcies from RNU outlining it's political analysis.

Thanks to the Pensive Quill for publishing the paper and it will be very interesting to read others contributions.

frankie said...

Michael is there anychance of you putting that in Lizzie's English?

I'm (stand to be corrected) one of the few posters on the TPQ who has never been involved in any political group.

And it's only over the past several years that I started to become very aware of what happened then [during the troubles] and whats happening today.

And the only people who have gained from the GFA are the folks on the hill. It isn't the working class people or ex political prisoners of both sides.

Before I rip you apart on this blog. Now you are here can you answer one question.

Why is it anytime I try to engage with SF on their sites and blogs I get no reply? Or at least find out why...it's people like myself who SF have to convince. And they aren't making a good job of it. They [SF] don't accept criticism neither are they prepared to see anyone point of view other than their own.

AM said...

Michaelhenry,

I am at one with Frankie on this, failing to understand what you are talking about. It is very garbled to say the least.

larry hughes said...

frankie

'Why is it anytime I try to engage with SF on their sites and blogs I get no reply? Or at least find out why...it's people like myself who SF have to convince. And they aren't making a good job of it. They [SF] don't accept criticism neither are they prepared to see anyone point of view other than their own'

SF tried and tested strategy in nationalist areas is 'what they can't control they wreck'.

They don't engage. They make it up as they go along. Either you follow or you don't. The threat of a return to the bad old days and the 'piss-process' has SF convinced they are invincible politically. Roll on the day that myth is destroyed. Fermanagh South Tyrone in 1981 will fade into 2nd place in my political euphoria chart!

frankie said...

I first read (became aware) Standing outside the Peace Process on Ardoyne's Republicans blog weeks ago. I asked Dr John on here to comment on it (maybe he missed it). But he didn't reply.

For an agreement that was meant to bring about peace and unite two communities it is going arse about face. There are more peace lines (still the best oxymoron I've came across) today than during the worst days of the conflict.

Anyone who voices an opinion about flaws within the GFA are laughed at, silenced or told they haven't a clue what they are talking about. I've bad news for the authors, it's not working for the very simple reason NO ONE WAS ASKED FOR THEIR INPUT. It was rail roaded in using scare tatics.

I can't find anywhere online or other where the people who were directly involved in the conflict consulted about what they'd like to see in it [GFA]. Surely (I've said this a few times) the people who put their lives on the line and went to prison have a more valid view of how to unite the community than people like myself.

When I first read Standing outside the Peace Process, I found out about the 'relief riots' for the first time. Then I went and read about it and came away with the impression that it was one of the few times that Tones objects were met.

Since the GFA was signed in 1998 the only beneficiaries are a very choosen few. It's not the ordinary working class person from Ardoyne, Falls, Sandy Row....(they [working class] are struggling to feed families, pay bills, heat homes......).

From reading sites like TPQ, Organised Rage, Ardoyne Republican, RNU, The Blanket etc..is very few ex political prisoners who faced the wrath of British imperialism are saying

"Lets go back to war"

It's more along the lines of

" Something is still fundementally wrong here"...And " Killing someone because of their religion or political beliefs isn't the best way to change things"

Its more of educating people and explaining why there is more to unite people than keep them divided behind walls.

Something that I do believe, this summer three 'factions' of armed republicans joined foreces to claim the mantle of the IRA. That tells me behind the scenes there also has to be a coming of minds politically too.

frankie said...

Larry, I'm stubborn. I'll keep asking until someone in SF replies. I'm not going to preempt their response maybe I'll agree with them, maybe I wont.

But there is something I've never manged to get my head around.

If Gerry Adams is correct that he was never a member of the PIRA, why was he allowed to reoganise it with Brendan Hughes and Ivor bell? I've never been a member of the PIRA and I seriously doubt if I went to the then Army Council and said..

"Excuse me but I'm not a volunteer and I think using the cell system is better and I'll cross the 'T's' and dot the 'i's' and give the the RM a more cohesive orgainisation".

Chances are larry (at best) they'd have said (while giving me the one finger salute)

"Frankie, sit on it, swivel on it and whistle dixie"

While recieving a thick ear on my way out.

I don't mean to disrespect any former IRA volunteer. I seriously doubt that an orgainisation like the PIRA would let anyone dictate policy who wasn't involved...

david said...


State directed loyalist death squads be they of the UVF/LVF or core British military type are something the British establishment are quite proud of. In recent weeks a named ex British soldier has boasted of his "murder and mayhem" -his words- activities in Ireland.

No arrest, no charge.

Ronnie Flanagan ex RUC head has made a very tidy living by giving strategic advice to the United Arab Emirates police force. His advice has also benifited the centralised security command of the Gulf Co operation council which includes such bastions of democracy as saudi Arabia and kuwait.

Given the repeated message from the British establishment of the stretegic importance of the Gulf to British interests, Flanagans appointment to his position was far from chance.

One part of his CV though that would have pleased his despot benefactors was his intimate and deep understanding of the activities of extra judical loyalist death squads and their ability to act with impunity under his watch.

The oppression in Bahrain is a testament to his work. British madeSnatch vechicles ala 70s Belfast rumbling in from saudi Arabia to back up the regime must have had a tear of nostalgia in Ronnies eye.

Yes death squads have now stepped up their work in Bahrain

marty said...

Frankie a cara there has to be a coming of minds here politically and quite possibly militarily before we can forever leave this bastardised state where it truly belongs ie., in the dustbin of history,when I talk of coming together of minds I mean the ordinary man/woman from both sides of this community,engaging in dialogue for the betterment of ourselves and the children that follow,its not wishful thinking a cara it can happen,we can make it happen by hammering away at the old sectarian myths that the big house unionsts and the catholic church knows what is best for the plebs,we can and probably will have to reform a citizens army to protect the working class from attacks by agents of the state both nationalist and unionst,we have had in the past a Republican Congress Contingent on the Shankill rd they were unfortunately attacked at Bodenstown 1934,had they been encouraged and allowed to flourish then the history of our recent past may have been entirely different.

Squinterwatch said...

@Michael Henry, as expected the SF commentary on this position paper would concentrate on periphery cosmetics as opposed to the central themes and pillars of thought which you cant touch.
Id say RNU know well the current status of 'water charges', we all know that Sinn Fein intend to phase them in possibly under an alternative term "tap tax", is what i believe Paul Butler proposed.
Anyhow, feel free to attack the cosmetics,(the dates/grammar or whatever) because on a whole, RNU have your party over a barrel on this.

michaelhenry said...

frankie-

Thought you put down a few honest comments-dont mind me to much-

" Before i rip you apart on this blog "

Looking forward to it-

" its people like myself who SF have to convince "

Is that right-Sinn Fein are a 32 party with people also in the dail yet all you talk about are the folks on the hill-maybe its you that has to convince Sinn Fein-or maybe not-but at the end of the day Sinn Fein has got its support-

" three 'factions' of armed republicans joined forces to claim the mantle of the IRA "

Three into one cannot go-they are great talkers-they could talk for Ireland-not so good at the fighting the war bit though-

larry hughes said...

michaelhenry

" its people like myself who SF have to convince "

'Is that right-Sinn Fein are a 32 party with people also in the dail yet all you talk about are the folks on the hill-maybe its you that has to convince Sinn Fein-or maybe not-but at the end of the day Sinn Fein has got its support-'

complacency and arrogance i think. Born of a SF submission that is guaranteed by RUC/state promotion. I think michaelhenry if people begin feeling secure and start supporting the SDLP again you'll do a switch; to the SDLP 'A' team.


'Three into one cannot go-they are great talkers-they could talk for Ireland-not so good at the fighting the war bit though-''

here's another thought michaelhenry...in the decades to come if physical force nationalists get their act together even partially, they only need wreck the GFA rather than defeat the brits. One more failed brit imposed solution may be enough with todays demographics to convince London to finally call it a day. Then you and SF will be on the Brit (losing) side in the endgame. Although as a careerist that will hardly anoy yourself a jot.

eddie said...

Frankie

The British most certainly credited Gerry Adams with restructuring the IRA and Gerry Adams basked in the British glorification of himself.

The reality of the matter was at the end of the 70's the British needed to explain why the fish were not throwing themselves on to the bank anymore. (ie immediately following the launching of "primacy of the police policy" at the beginning of 1976 there was a dramatic rise in the number of people going in to police stations and unburdening themselves and making statements confessing to all sorts of things. Towards the end of the 70's when it became clear publicly that people were being beaten and tortured in the police stations and pressure was applied to make the British end the practise, the number of people making confessions dramatically decreased. This in an obvious way pointed up exactly what the British were doing in the police stations. To counter this the British said Gerry Adams restructured the IRA and that was why there was a dramatic decrease in the number of people coming in and making 'admission' statements).

Gerry Adams could only have known the truth but obviously he loved the resultant adulation he got as a result more than he loved the truth.

michaelhenry said...

Larry-

" if people begin feeling secure and start supporting the SDLP again
you'll do a switch "

The SDLP never had the support of the 32 Irish people and never will-

" they only need wreck the GFA "

There will only be one major force that will try to wreck the GFA- the loyalists-they will also fail-

larry hughes said...

michaelhenry

The 'loyalists' are fast running out of track. One of the most interesting political developments we can anticipate in the years to come is 'loyalist' reinvention. The selfinterest society that they are are heading for minority status in the wee 6. Will it be the Alimo on island Magee? I'm fascinated at their plight. Whatever shall they dream up?

As for 32 county politics, bring FF north i say. Now those guys KNOW how to banjax a society!

frankie said...

Michaelhenry...

First can you again translate your first post you made today. I've a son who is 11yrs old and who's first language is French and he could very easily write a more coherent sentence and or phrase in Lizzies English than what you wrote. In laymans terms Anthony is a better educated man than myself and he couldn't understand it. What chance have I.

I am very aware the SF are a 32 county party. That doesn't explain why they are opposing austerity in the 26 counties but both overtly and covertly endorsing the same measures in the o6c.

Why do I keep refering to the Folks on the Hill. When I eventually go home for good, I'll in all likelyhood be living in a partitioned state and what they decide will affect me more than Leinster House..

I'll give you an example of the two faces of SF.
Sean Crowe spoke against closing rural schools while John O'Dowd closes schools in the North.

Here's another one...

What about 'inkgate'..50,000 euro on bloody ink!!!!

Or Gerry Adams a while back using a helicopter to have lunch with Ben Dunne???

Now Michael you have to keep in mind that SF is a working class socialist party.

Your point on the SDLP tells me one thing. I've a better understanding of party politics in the o6c than yourself. The party was set up as a Northern nationalist party not an All island one. And one of the biggest reasons why the SDLP has fallen behind SF is largely due to the simple fact that once John Hume and to a smaller extent Seamus Mallon retired there wasn't anyone to fill their shoes. Will the same fate arrive on the door step of SF once Gerry Adams and Martin mcGuinness retire...I'll put it this way Michael, I've already a sly ten bob bet with Paddy Power that it will.

You keep trying to defend the indefensible. The GFA was meant to bring Nationalist-Republicans and the PUL communities together. All it's done is allowed more oxymorons to be built, endorse cuts in health, education and welfare.

I find most of your posts incredulous at the best of times and others I think to myself you have to be a BOT

Assuming you are a real person can you find out why the party you belong to refuses to let me participate on their forums????

James said...

Unfortunately,
The loyalist and the working class unionist community are very much snookered. Until they develop real class consciousness and understand that being loyal to their Queen the head of the capitalist bloc in the UK, will forever mean a life without previledge for them, their chilren and their future generations to come. Howard Zinn in his book the Peoples history of united states quote "Slavery without Submission, Emancipation without Freedom" pretty much sums up where the working class protestants are at the present moment, all hung up on flags, emblems, symbolism, they will remain slaves to this system as long as their political religous elite direct them to concentrate only on these superficial issues,or you would be disloyal to your Queen, your Britishness, your unionist community. This is equally to true to the people who claim to be republician and wrap themselves only in the tri-colour and Irishness, SF are doing the same on their own community. For example, It is hard enough in orwellian 1984 here in the north to come from the supposed tribal Catholic Irish side and state openly about being socialist and how stormount serves not the working class electorate that most of these "political Now Elite free riders in stormount" which they elect only to be shafted by neo conservative pro right British/Irish polices morning, noon and night. I heard the impartial BBC news today spin that Obama has cut short his holidays, as the USA is facing a "financial cliff edge" with intense austerity cuts being imposed on the most vulernable in society. He can do nothing about it, its too late, but it was nice of the impartial BBC to add a little spin on his behalf.lol Therefore, the USA electorate who voted him back in, are going to be shafted again on false promises and democtratic (visions). Bearing in mind if the measures are cliff edge at the USA door now,(great spin) then its the UK,(enter new spin) and then Here. Now xmas is out of the road stay tuned to your impartial media announcing the next series of austerity measures in the form of reduced housing benefit, tap tax,job loses, childcare, pensioners,public services, ect, ect. If osbourne says the cuts could last 5years, well you would be safer doubling that, the tory thinking is if we get the ball rolling, sure after a few years of rolling austerity the electorate will become to accept it as normal until nothing is left. Following the US model of treating the vulernable working class, which is a bit rich, as the US elite owes 3 trillion to the communist bloc of China and they have the cheek to say socialism doesnt work, well it is financing your american debt capitalism...After reading the post again, the only concern I have with it, is its marketing appeal. The title "Standing outside the Peace Process" could be setting themselves up for a whole lot of labeling and shamming here, by the right wing media and political groups. I can just here it now. It might have been better worded as "Can we Stand inside the Peace Process". This would have more marketing appeal to the neutral, or float. Need to speak the language of positivity and willingness to engage. As I am sure the RNU like the peace, but are not too fused on the process which is entirely sectarian and not in the intersts of the majority of the 99% of the classes. Only my opinion now...

frankie said...

Eddie,
Thanks for the reply. But the point I was trying to make was everything I've read about the re-organisation of the RM/PIRA wasn't what the British have said but former comrades of Gerry Adams. Most recently in Anthonys & Ed's book 'Voices'..

@ marty,

I had heard about a protestant faction of the IRA on the Shankill before and forgot about them until you refreshed my memory today. So I googled it and it led me to here..Reading some of posts, it looks like I'll have to google somemore.

I have been unable to confirm the Shankill Connelly club as well. I read about it on a Spanish Civil War site dedicated to Irish Volunteers. The Mount Pottinger one, I'm assuming, is the Republican/Socialist Club mentioned in the book "Across The Divide" although it is not referred to by name.

But before that I'm going to watch a series on this youtube channel about the Flight of the Earls..over the last few days I watched the 1916 rising, Falls Road curfew and the battle of the bogside on the same channel..( it was better than most of what was advertised on TV over christmas)

itsjustmacker said...

@Squinterwatch.

You got it in one, excellent post, and, TAP = BUTLER, He SPOUTS a load of crap, but then again, everyone in PSF are the same, In for the queens shilling (£100,000) each, plus there security income!!. RNU have PSF well over the barrel and PSF know it.

@Michaelhenry:

Yes, all RNU are locals within the community for the community.
Seems your out of date, or, have your leaders not told you that quite a number of them have been arrested for none payment of British fines for having a peaceful protest against Bigots parading down past the Ardoyne Shops, whilst PSF talk to them secretly about the big Building sites security scam!!!.
Think about, might take you a couple of weeks though.

Dixie said...

The shocking thing about the De Silva Report is that the Brits, while using Nelson to target and murder Republicans and Nationalists, also used him to ensure the safety of Gerry Adams.

That was in 1987 and the deaths of Republicans killed during that time included the 8 Loughgall volunteers in 87, and the Gibraltar 3 in 88.

We know therefore that while Adams and McGuinness (another 'safe Republican') were telling the rank and file members of PIRA that the War would continue, the Brits knew they were lying and that they needed to be protected.

I put the above to a member of SF in a bar last week and he merely turned and walked away without reply. I thought, Fuck at least say it's balls, but he said nothing.

Sometimes I believe that deep down many of them know, but they just have too much to lose financially to walk away.

larry hughes said...

Dixie

'Sometimes I believe that deep down many of them know, but they just have too much to lose financially to walk away.'

They should be avoided like sewage. The nerve they have to walk away from anyone. It shows how dependant they are on the Brits and how contemptible they are towards ordinary nationalists.

marty said...

Dixie a cara the look on their faces tells it all really,they have sold their souls and what makes it harder for them is the fact that everybody knows it...

michaelhenry said...

Dixie-

Pat Finucane's widow Geraldine has dismissed the de silva report as a sham and a whitewash yet you take it as gospel-you believe in it-and you wonder why Republicans dont answer your questions in a bar-

Do you count yourself as another safe Republican Dixie-what about Ruairi Ó Brádaigh-he was safe during the war-come to think of it not one member of RSF was ever killed by the brits-cops-loyalists-
where do we stop with your line of thought about safe Republicans-

frankie said...

Michael,

In my first post I asked you a simple direct question. Why can't I post on SF related sites and blogs? Or at least can you find out why I can't.

Your silence is deafening. A lot of posters here have said...

"Frankie, you are pissing in the wind, SF wont reply to you"....

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt (against my better judgement) and assume you are trying to find out why I can't post.

I just read Dixie's post where he ask a member of SF a question last week and like myself he was met with a wall of silence.

If you can't answer my first simple question. Try this for size. Are you allowed or are you capable of thinking 'outside the box'?

eddie said...

Frankie

With respect AM was in prison and Ed was not in the IRA in the late 70's, as such, both would have been relying on second hand information from people who AM/Ed were friends or friendly with and the same people who also in all likelihood would have been supporters of Adams

With his TV one liners and politics of protest it was all too easy for Gerry Adams to bluff a lot of people that he was the best thing since slice bread. His furore into Southern Irish politics proves that Gerry Adams is no mastermind.

itsjustmacker said...

@michaelhenry:

"Pat Finucane's widow Geraldine has dismissed the de silva report as a sham and a whitewash yet you take it as gospel-you believe in it-and you wonder why Republicans dont answer your questions in a bar-".

With all due respect, Geraldine Finucane was calling the de silva report a whitewash because of dead people being linked to murders and the investigation, also, mi5/Ruc special branch being more or less let off the hook, Geraldine knows now that a full public inquiry is a big "NO" because of mi5's involvement , and, anything pertaining to security is a big "NO NO" as far as mi5 are concerned. I think it would be best if you read that report without the blinkers on, also, with an open mind, "If that's at all posible".
as for FRANKIES request that requires an answer with reference to SF not answering questions on there site/blog, I will try and answer it for you.

@Frankie.

They wont answer to anyone who has not made a subscription, nor anyone who does not support there GFA ,you have been well checked out by SF on this and possibly other blogs.
Maybe michaelhenry could elaborate on that, therefor you might get your answer.

AM said...

Michaelhenry,

You seem quite fluent in gibberish. Where did you learn it?

Dixie said...

michaelhenry the De Silva report confirmed what Ed Moloney had said years ago about the British moving to stop the UDA planting a limpet mine on Adams' armoured car from a motor bike.

http://thebrokenelbow.com/2012/12/06/uda-plot-to-assassinate-gerry-adams-some-background-revisited/

"Nelson said his handlers told him the assassination of Adams would have been totally counter-productive..."

I was about to put a few questions to you but I thought I'd be better wasting my time trying to teach the cat to moonwalk.

itsjustmacker said...

What do other people think, both sides of the DIVIDE discus it.
Click on the link and download pamphlets # 101 and 102.

Did you know that that at the signing of the ulster covenant, over 200 catholics were fired from belfast shipyard, but, over 500 protestants were also fired for refusing to sign the covenant. some of this is good reading on the cain website.

click here for pamphlet 101/102

itsjustmacker said...

Sorry for the above link not working, it would not allow me to put the "http" in the address.

this is it, just copy and paste into your browser address bar.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cainbgn/addition.htm

larry hughes said...

Breaking news from RUC HQ press release states leading SF man was responsible for dozens of killings.


SF responded.... course he was any of us still here were working with the RUC all along!! lol

frankie said...

@ Eddie...
I was refering directly to Brendan Hughes and what he is on record as saying. All Anthony and Ed have done was transcribe his [Brendans] words. Throw into the mix Brendan Hughes wanted his story told in print before he died but was convinced otherwise and Gerry Adams is on record of saying he was in prison at the time of Jean McConvilles death (untruth) he sang always look on the brightside of life in prison (untruth) , his brother not being a member of SF (untruth).

I'm inclinded to belive what Brendan Hughes (and others) have said rather than Gerry Adams.. Before I read Voices and watched the documentary on youtube, the first times I heard about Gerry Adams being party to the re-organising of the RM was in Martin Dillions book The Dirty War, then both Tim Pat Coogans and Eamon Malies accounts of the IRA.

Ed, Martin, Eamon and Tim Pat are all respected journalists and there is no way they could have printed what they did without input from a source who was directly involved with in the RM. And the source (or sources) had be sanctioned from a high level. Considering most of the books I've read about the troubles and the PIRA were in print before any fall out within, tends to give their accounts more than 50+1% of truth.

Eddie, I don't have personal grudge against Gerry Adams (I've never met the man), but his track record as an MP for West Belfast isn't a great testement. Under his stewardship there wasn't a lot of inward investment, jobs created, youth development programs. Maybe there wasn't (or isn't) enough public funds to go around. I just know the figures and West Belfast is always in the top five of most socially depraved areas of the UK. Maybe he'll do better in Louth. But I doubt it.

frankie said...

itjustmackers,

You (and others on the TPQ) are probably correct. The fact I ask questions and don't sing from SF's hymn sheet goes along way explaining as to why I can't post on their sites.

I'll also hazzard a guess that a few members of SF have probably read some of comments/posts here.

I class myself as a dissident nationalist. I've never belonged to any political party in my life, that doesn't mean I have to be ignored.

Ryan said...

"18,500 crimes reported in a one mile radius of Albert st lower Falls, thats the peace dividend at work or is it Rome burning?"

Marty,
the Lower Falls, a once proud community has become a truly frightening place. It is overrun by hoods and crime. It breaks my heart to hear of strong people who stood up to the Brits/loyalists and now are too scared to venture outside. You know if there weren't such repressive gun control in the North and ordinary citizens were allowed to defend themselves with personal firearms these hoods wouldn't dare do the things they do. The situation would be cleaned up tomorrow.

frankie said...

Eddie

Something I forgot to mention, at least two people who Gerry Adams entrusted to be part of his inner circle, think tank <---use your own words, have been found to be agents of the state (Denis Donaldson and Roy McShane).

The question has to be asked how many others are there?

@ itjustmackers,

I'm trying to find the reference you mentioned on the CAIN site. If you give the title of the document, I'll dig it out and read it. But I'm drawing a blank at present..

AM said...

Ryan,

people might buy into that if it could be shown to have stopped gang violence in the US. They fear a gun nut doing what happened in Sandy Hook which is infinitely worse than the blight of the hoods.

itsjustmacker said...

@Frankie:

I'm trying to find the reference you mentioned on the CAIN site. If you give the title of the document, I'll dig it out and read it. But I'm drawing a blank at present..:

Pamphlet 101 pdf:
Pamphlet 102 pdf:

you can download anything you want.

marty said...

Frankie Roy the boy Mc Shane was never a member of the bearded ones inner circle, he was a driver and funny enough the car was bugged to.

frankie said...

Marty,
Thanks for the correction. But Roy McShane was part of the nutting squad which we know today wasn't controlled by the PIRA but Mi5/Special Branch. SF thought he was a 'solid' enough republican to be allowed to drive the SF leadership to meetings. Alex Maskey said this at the time

"I see him under no threat from republicans.

and this

"“He’s safe. Let’s face it – the war is over,”

Echo's of what Martin McGuinness told the Heagarty family spring to mind. The more I read and learn the less surprised I am about the complete U turn SF have done.

Dixie said...

Just discovered that Danny Morrison wrote an novel about an informer in the IRA after the 1981 Hunger Strike...

Bet that scared the shit out of a few leading shinners before they discovered it was a work of fiction.

Phew!! Thought the fecker was going to name names crossed a few minds I'd bet!

Then again, naw. It would have been vetted before anyone else saw it.

"Danny get rid of the blond curly hair and lopped-sided grin, too much like Martin...As for the Beard!!"

AM said...

Dixie,

funny enough I was just talking about that book today on the phone with a guy from Belfast. I read the book a few years ago and to be fair it is a very good read.

frankie said...

I'm not sure if any of you have seen this (I reckon some of you have). On the left hand side 'click on' the second video and FF to around 9mins..listen to when Ed speaks at around 11mins.

Then make your own mind up about the search for truth. I'll stand by what I've said before. The day (I hope it never arrives) the BC tapes are handed over any chance of finding the truth will be lost not for a generation or two but for ever. If Mark Twains auto biograpghy was allowed to be kept under wraps for 100yrs in the States surely the same reasoning can be applied to the tapes (I hope I'm making sense).

Again I'll use the missing tape concerning the shooting of Michael Tighe. Once the PSNI get their hands on the tapes who's to say they wont do what Special Branch/ Army Intell have already done concerning the shoot to kill policy and Marian Price's Royal Pardon (destroy the evidence).

If the British Gov. wont come clean on collusion. What chance is there of them coming clean if a truth and reconcillation process is allowed to get up and running? Personally I think none. <--JMO

AM said...

Ardoyne Republican,

you are welcome.

Thanks to the RNU for throwing their document this way. It is clear from the page views that a paper of this sort engenders more than the average interest. Whether that amounts to approval is another thing. It could as easily be disapproval. Page views don't tell us what the viewer thinks.

I would like at some point to consider the ideas espoused here. It would have to be in a separate piece as a comment would not do the paper justice. It goes without saying that the authors of the RNU piece would have a full right to respond by way of an article rather than a comment if they felt there was something they wished to explore or tackle further.

larry hughes said...

what u-turn?

Echo's of what Martin McGuinness told the Heagarty family spring to mind. The more I read and learn the less surprised I am about the complete U turn SF have done.

stinko for long-time!

frankie said...

A few points about the doucment RNU have put foward. I understand it's in it's infancy and needs to be fleshed out. When RNU get around to putting a set of policies together about how they see a way foward and offer a differnt alternative to the GFA....

Who are they going to consult? Are they [RNU] only going to ask nationalist/republicans for their input or are they going to ask (for want of a better word/phrase) community leaders on the PUL side of the divide for their input?
My take is (could be wrong) if the PUL community aren't at least asked for their input, they will disregard it. They got a raw deal too.

Standing outside the peace process talks about unity, even uses the example of the relief riots as to what working class people can do when they put a united front together..


We need only point to the example of the 1936 cross community ‘outdoor relief riots’ to emphasise the revolutionary potential of protestant and catholic working class communities rising above the identity brackets assigned to them by church and state here.
...

Thats my thoughts...

Ardoyne Republican said...

AM & TPQ, like I said earlier chara thanks for bringing our paper to a wider audience...

There were indeed plently of comments and we didn't mind some of disapproval..

We'd (RNU) be more than happy with a longer article thrasing the paper out more, look forward to reading it.


Happy New Year to you, your Clann and Readers.

Ardoyne Republican said...

@Frankie,

Yes, RNU fully intend to consult more widely than Anti-GFA Republicans. We are also determined to engage the PUL community in respect of our analysis and attempt to help them see their future in a Socialist Ireland would be of much more benefit to all Irish citizens chara.

Thanks for your input agus Adh Mhor Ort in 2013.

michaelhenry said...

frankie-

" they got a raw deal "

You on about the protestant unionist loyalist community-they are crying over a flag at the momment then they will have a so called border poll to cry about-last thing that they are going to worry about is a RNU document-

AM-Dixie-

Are youse talking about The wrong man by Danny Morrison-thought it a good book myself-

Ardoyne Republican said...

@michaeelhenry,

As ever you fail to address the actual document as you always try and deflect attention away from core issues..

No surprise, you've 'good' teachers in your Party Leaders.

Tain Bo said...

Mickey,

How is it going mucker I see you are making friends as usual? You should take advantage of the Quill and post some rational thoughts and reasons mainly for the benefit of the readers.
Mickey you have been knocking about here a few years and to date you shine a poor light on the party you defend so much.
I think I have asked you before to encourage other shins to post here perhaps they could expand beyond slogan posts and answer a few iffy questions.
Just a question do you actually read and digest any of the articles or just pick out flash-points and react from there.

itsjustmacker said...

@ Ardoyne Republican:

I agree with you about Michaelhenry, But the poor guy seems to wear blinkers most of the the time, but he has his good points at times, I'm sure not all councilors in Cookstown are like him though.
Seems dixie knows him more than I do.

Adh Mhor Ort in 2013.

itsjustmacker said...

@Dixie.

"Just discovered that Danny Morrison wrote an novel about an informer in the IRA after the 1981 Hunger Strike...".

Now that would have been food for thought, type of book like that would probably have been written by MI5 think tanks!, Ah, The Armalite in one hand and the Ballot box in the other, with massive bank accounts of course, For the people, fuck the people, that was SF top echelons intentions from day one, so I will be curious to see who wins Marty Boy McGuinness's vacated Westminster MP's Seat.

frankie said...

Ardoyne Republican,

What RNU have in their favour is hindsight. RNU are in a position to keep the parts of the GFA that are working and exploit the sectarianism within the GFA.

All the GFA has done is keep the two communities apart. It may work at Stormount. But on the streets where it should work, there hasn't been a coming together as was promised in 1998. The increase in oxymorons built prove it.

The only people who can be blamed are the authors of the GFA. They can't blame the public, the public wasn't consulted about it.

The GFA was (to me) more about silencing guns than anything else. And it has failed in that respect also. Todays attempted murder proves it.

Tain Bo,

I've noticed what you and Ardoyne Republican have said about Michael. He circumvents direct questions put to him. And when anyone questions his point of view or corrects his mistakes he behaves like a child.

I've made mistakes in things I said here and posters correct me, some I have difference of opinions on certain subjects. Sometimes I can see the merit in their opinions and sometimes I've been persuaded to change my stance and agree..

But Michael is blinkered. Maybe he's quietly hoping that when the present leadership of SF retire he'll get a promotion for holding the party line.

michaelhenry said...

Tain Bo-

" encourage other shins to post here "

I have broached your suggestion to others any time you have brought it up Tain Bo-and most read the Quill they just dont comment for whatever reason- yes i read and try to digest what is said- i can only say what i think and i cant see us getting beat-thats my point of view-others see things different and i am still trying to work out how anyone can come to that conclusion-

larry hughes said...

itsjustmacker

'so I will be curious to see who wins Marty Boy McGuinness's vacated Westminster MP's Seat.'

it will be interesting to see if with the 'piss-process' well safe and secure people start voting for the SDLP again. After-all there's no threat of a return to war from what conbstitutes Provo SF these days. Now that would be sweet!!

frankie said...

Michael..

i can only say what i think and -

Personally I doubt very much that you say what you think.

i cant see us getting beat-thats my point of view-others see things different and i am still trying to work out how anyone can come to that conclusion

In a nutshell (no pun), ever heard the saying..

From small acorns.....

Tain Bo said...

Frankie,

don’t mind Mickey he goes on the wind and likes to rattle which is funny and has its place he just overdoes it at times.
We all make mistakes and given the subject matter, I am surprised there is not more when they are flagged that is a credit to sharp eyes and good memory I have neither.

Happy new year to you and yours mate

Tain Bo said...

Mickey,

I am not knocking you mate I am merely nudging you to present your view more clearly how you see things is fair enough but you can’t expect readers to see through your foggy posts and arrive at any clear understanding.
I have said it before fair play to you I just think you sell your position short and invite the ribbing.

Good luck mate and happy new year

frankie said...

Personally,

Why the GFA isn't working can be summed up in here and here .

itsjustmacker said...

Labour questions TPims' effectiveness as terror suspect absconds.
Writing on Twitter earlier, Mr Anderson questioned whether Mr Magag would have been able to abscond as easily from south-west England, where he was held under his control order from 2009 until 2011.

But he added no anti-terror measure "of this kind" is "foolproof". He highlighted that ("the UK does not imprison British citizens who have "not been charged or convicted of a criminal offence").

"So, in fact they are saying NI is not in the UK", or, they are hiding the fact that people in NI are being held without trial.

Ministers say they do not believe his disappearance is linked to any terrorism planning in the UK, and his TPim was intended to prevent fundraising and overseas travel.

Go to link

marty said...

Frankie a cara just read your earlier reply a happy new year to you belated as it is but my recovery rate is definitely on the wain..but back to the issue of Roy Boy he was,nt a member of the nutting squad either,

Harry said...

"State directed Loyalist death squads such as the LVF and UFF still hovered menacingly over the Catholic community in the years during which the GFA was designed. This spectre of random sectarian murder reminded the Catholic community that a heavy price could be extracted from them, should republicans continue to pursue revolutionary goals in their name."

2 points regarding this:

1. Were these revolutionary republicans really pursuing their goals ONLY in the name of the Catholic community? That's quite a slip up with regards to the supposed non-sectarian message in the rest of this paper. I'd say it reflected the reality of the conflict though.

2. It's interesting to see the RNU admit that the tactics of the loyalists worked - that the loyalist onslaught ground down the CNR community to the point that the vast majority of them were game for peace at any price.

Harry said...

"But he added no anti-terror measure "of this kind" is "foolproof". He highlighted that ("the UK does not imprison British citizens who have "not been charged or convicted of a criminal offence").

"So, in fact they are saying NI is not in the UK", or, they are hiding the fact that people in NI are being held without trial."


Surely no good 'revolutionary republican' would still have their British citizenship? Wouldn't they all have renounced their British citizenship if they were born with it?

larry hughes said...

Harry

The way the demographics are headed it wont be long until the 'loyalists' are fighting Britain to remain British AGAIN.

Now that does have me laughing.

itsjustmacker said...

Harry:

"Surely no good 'revolutionary republican' would still have their British citizenship? Wouldn't they all have renounced their British citizenship if they were born with it?"

answer to your question = YES, and, I am one of them.
But to me you are attempting to throw the onus onto Republicans, don't forget, Tpims apply to anyone in England,Scotland,Wales, and, The
North Eastern Part of our Island which the British believes belongs to them , and stupidly Loyalists also believe this, I spent a few years in Birmingham with some friends and we met some protestant friends, our protestant friends could not understand why english and Scottish people were calling them "Paddies", I said, They don't give two fucks about You or I, to them we are Thick Paddies. I hope you get my point. But to get to the main point of my post and the link, The British have lied, "Not For The First Time, nor The Last".
This was my point of my post, ie;

""So, in fact they are saying, (1) NI is not in the UK", or, (2) they are hiding the fact that people in NI are being held without trial."

So which one would you say was correct (1) , (2) , or Both?.
But don't forget, On your British Passport it states , "Great Britain and Northern Ireland", so if you class Northern Ireland as being part of the UK , and, Great Britain being larger than the UK , but I would hazard a guest, you are going to say they are both the same!!!!.

Now, after consulting your British Passport , assuming you have a Passport, I would like an unbiased answer please.

Harry said...

"This was my point of my post, ie;

""So, in fact they are saying, (1) NI is not in the UK", or, (2) they are hiding the fact that people in NI are being held without trial."

So which one would you say was correct (1) , (2) , or Both?."

Neither is correct with respect to what the guy actually said. If republicans who have renounced their British citizenship are rightly being locked up then he is quite right - it isn't British citizens who are being locked up. It's enemies of the state. Irish folks.

I frankly don't care how many 'revolutionary republicans' get themselves locked up. They aren't British citizens, and they chose their course of action.

Harry said...

"But don't forget, On your British Passport it states , "Great Britain and Northern Ireland", so if you class Northern Ireland as being part of the UK , and, Great Britain being larger than the UK , but I would hazard a guest, you are going to say they are both the same!!!!.

Now, after consulting your British Passport , assuming you have a Passport, I would like an unbiased answer please."


I honestly have no idea what any of that means.

Of course NI is part of the UK. It isn't a matter of 'the British' or 'loyalists' beelieving it, it's a matter of fact. It's why people like you keep on complaining about partition - it actually does exist. Partition actually happened. It's what people claim to be struggling against.

Now you can believe that a 32 county Irish Republic exists if you want, but that's where the fantasy comes in. It doesn't exist now, even if did on a limited basis a long time ago.

I can get a British passport because NI is actually in the real world part of the UK. You can't get a passsport of the 32 county Irish Republic because it doesn't exist.

frankie said...

I was going to reply to marty, then I seen Harry's post.

Now you can believe that a 32 county Irish Republic exists if you want, but that's where the fantasy comes in. It doesn't exist now, even if did on a limited basis a long time ago.

Harry with my limited knowledge, my reading is this, no one is saying a 32 county Republic exists . Irish republicans would like one (stop twisting words).

This caught my eye, an article on the non release of state papers about Kincora. Those kids were as much victims as anyone who was affected, I doubt they'll get justice.

Ultimately I think the grubby facts that the Brits don’t want out there will be uncovered not by tribunals or courts but by historians, academics and investigative journalists doing the digging.

..It's very hard not to think othewise Anthony.

There is no way on earth that if a truth an reconcillation process got up and running the truth will be told. Mi5 have to much to lose. Similiar I don't think the leadership of SF/RM will explain while suing for 'peace' they didn't at least inform rank and file IRA volunteers. The chances of getting the truth about shoot to kill? It's not going to happen. Not eveyone will tell the truth.

And yet the GFA's authors want me to believe by building more oxymorons it will unite people (that logic misses me everytime) , make it almost impossible to find the truth about state and church child abuse scandals, think it's ok to cover up state sponsered killings...made sure sectarianism is kept alive and kicking While making sure the PUL community are brainwashed into not taking the leap of faith and see themselves as Irish (they still need convincing that the o6c isn't even close to being as British as Finchley).

Then some bright spark figures by investigating someone ones past and then locking them up for 2yrs is going to help and restore confidence in 'dissidents' and make armed republicans put away their guns. While ignoring what Mi5 have been allowed to get away with. That logic misses me aswell.

The GFA is working at board room level and it's full of wink's nods and masonic handshakes. For this generation it's probably too late. There have been kids 'blooded' already. What the leaders will have to do is some serious damage limitation to make sure things don't spiral out of control.

Sooner or later the oxymorons will have to come down and kids will have to go to the same schools, get the same education, same version of history..For example you have a 16yr old today..In 8/10yrs time they'll probably be a parent with a kid old enough to go to primary school. Why wont the Folks on the Hill make a policy thingy that in 8 yrs all primary schools are mixed and in 10/12 yrs all secondary schools are mixed too (so kids move together).

Harry if you are still here. The o6c is meant to be part of the UK. I don't know the breakdown for the North but there are 850,000 properties lying vacant within the UK today. There has to be vacant houses in the North..And the money is there. All they (Folks on the hill) have to do is transfer part/ most of the money they spend on Mi5 & Co. And really clean up the mess they help create. Instead of asking everyone else to pay for it.

itsjustmacker said...

Harry:

"I honestly have no idea what any of that means."

Why?, Its a basic straightforward question, I get the feeling you are still at school.

For your information, 6 of the 9 counties of Ulster are an intregal part of the UK , the other 3 counties are in EIRE.

"Neither is correct with respect to what the guy actually said. If republicans who have renounced their British citizenship are rightly being locked up then he is quite right - it isn't British citizens who are being locked up. It's enemies of the state. Irish folks."
My question related to people being imprisoned without trial in NORTHERN IRELAND, and you state Ulster is British, The guy stated, "that no one in Britain is imprisoned without a trial", so in effect, he is lying, irrespective of nationality, people are imprisoned without having a trial by their peers.I hope that's not to hard for you to address.

Frankie:

Great Post.
I once looked into the "Independent Ulster" free from British Rule. After a full consideration regarding the finances, It is an impossibility, not enough resources to generate work to keep those unemployed, and I took the view that unemployment would drastically increase which would throw the country back into the 1920/30s.

Harry said...

"...made sure sectarianism is kept alive and kicking While making sure the PUL community are brainwashed into not taking the leap of faith and see themselves as Irish (they still need convincing that the o6c isn't even close to being as British as Finchley)."

frankie:

It would indeed need to be a leap of faith since PUL folks are not "that sort" of Irish. The sort of Irish that you are talking about.

When will you ever get the point that since just about all PUL folks are of British ethnicity they see themselves as being politically British as opposed to being politically Irish?

Their ancestors moved from GB at various points, but they remained different from the gaelic Irish.

Nobody is brainwashed about this - it's just the way it is, and it's the sort of reality that CNR folks need to deal with before there can be any moving forward.

If CNR folks just keep banging on and on saying 'you're not British' they are going to get nowhere. If that's the RNU's attitude then they're as clueless as every other lot of repoublicans in the past, "revolutionary socialist" or not.

Harry said...

"Sooner or later the oxymorons will have to come down and kids will have to go to the same schools, get the same education, same version of history..For example you have a 16yr old today..In 8/10yrs time they'll probably be a parent with a kid old enough to go to primary school. Why wont the Folks on the Hill make a policy thingy that in 8 yrs all primary schools are mixed and in 10/12 yrs all secondary schools are mixed too (so kids move together)."

frankie:

I agree about kids being educated together but you know very well that certain parties have vested interests and would fight tooth and nail to stop the closing down of the system of separate RC schools in Northern Ireland. There would be a very reactionary response to such a proposal.

As for this supposed "same version of history" that you mention, I doubt that it will ever happen, never mind in 8/10/12 years time.

So long as there are two tribes on the island there will be two versions of history - the NR one and the UL one. I don't ever see any agreement coming about with respect to an agreed history of what happened.

As a simple example, 90+ years after Northern Ireland came into being people like you still can't bear to call the entity by its proper name - Northern Ireland. So what would you put in an agreed history text book?

And that only addresses the name of the place. Do you really think a full agreed history is possible if even the name is still disputed?

Harry said...

"Why?, Its a basic straightforward question, I get the feeling you are still at school.

For your information, 6 of the 9 counties of Ulster are an intregal part of the UK , the other 3 counties are in EIRE.

My question related to people being imprisoned without trial in NORTHERN IRELAND, and you state Ulster is British"

itsjustmacker:

I think you have confused me with someone else. Read my comments - I didn't state that Ulster is British. I said that Northern Ireland is British. You are saying a lot of stuff about Ulster that I already know. But I didn't mention Ulster.

Read what I said, not what you think I said.

When I said that I had no idea what you said means I was referring to the part that I quoted - the stuff about British passports.

Maybe you could explain it. I have no idea what point you were making about me classifying GB as being larger than the UK, nor what question you wanted me to answer after having had a look at my British passport.

I didn't mention anything about GB being larger than the UK. Are you attributing views to me based on assumptions about me as a unionist? Even if you are I don't understand what you are trying to say.

itsjustmacker said...

Frankie:

Joshua Cardwell, an east Belfast UUP councillor who formerly chaired the old Belfast Corporation Committee responsible for childrens’ homes, committed suicide in 1982 after being questioned by the RUC over Kincora.[1]
Debates on Kincora in the Northern Ireland Assembly were held on 22 March and 9 November 1983. Another inquiry, under Judge William Hughes, was then set up by Prior in January 1984.[4][1]
In December 1985, Judge Hughes reported after his lengthy public inquiry. The view that there was a more extensive 'ring' operating at the home was not accepted.

click kincora on wikipedia


Harry said...

"Harry with my limited knowledge, my reading is this, no one is saying a 32 county Republic exists . Irish Republicans would like one (stop twisting words)."

frankie:

My understanding of the 'political theory' believed by many IR groups is that the 32 county Irish Republic (as proclaimed in 1916) does exist even if it is sort of dormant (my description)at the moment. The government of that 32 county Irish Republic is supposedly entrusted to some body - usually the 'Army Council' of some IRA until the actual political entity can be restored into reality.

Even the Provisionals used to believe this sort of thing until the point at which they - to me and others - gave up on republicanism.

The problem of course always was that at any point in time you had several IRA Army Councils claiming that stewardship of the government of that 32 county Irish Republic had been vested in them. Arguments then arose as to which one was right as each of them had a different view about the outcome of splits in the various IRAs and who had belessed which Army Council with the authority to be stewards of the government of the Irish Republic.

Doesn't the RNU believe this sort of thing? Has this latest attempt at revolutionaary republicanism given up on that stuff?

I know that RSF still talks this talk - they believe that their IRA (what the media calls the CIRA) are the current stewards of the government of the Irish Republic - not that they show many signs of doing much to restore the Irish Republic.

I've lost track of the 32CSM/RIRA lot as there have been so many splits in that faction, and I don't know if RAAD believed in such stuff before they joined up with ones of the RIRA splinters to form what the media is calling this New IRA, but such thinking used to be all the rage.

Then of course there's that ONH lot - I don't know if they believe this stuff.

Does the RNU have a viewpoint on this issue?

Harry said...

"In December 1985, Judge Hughes reported after his lengthy public inquiry. The view that there was a more extensive 'ring' operating at the home was not accepted."

itsjustmacker:

What does Kincora have to do with this RNU document?

Harry said...

"The guy stated, "that no one in Britain is imprisoned without a trial""

itsjustmacker:

Did he really state that?

That's a different quote from the one that you posted in your comment at 6:46 on Jan. 1.

Did he really say both those things or are you summarizing what he said?

James said...

These three quotes from Orwell help with the tribal identity and sectarianism and why the political elite whether it is SF/DUP or any other of them up the hill want to protray to the working classes either protestant or catholic. These parties need the status Quo to be where they are (in power and priledge) and were the working class are (on the recieving end of under priledge).Pretty simple strategy? "The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.” George Orwell You can see SF utilising this more and more, with half truths, misleading mubbles and down right lies over aspects of the troubles, they want to whitewash over. Young people on both sides are getting sucked into maintaining tribal sectarian standpoints. Which leads nicely onto “Until they become conscious, they will never rebeland until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.”George Orwell, 1984.The acceptable sectarian parties on the hill are using the tried and tested suceessful strategy of tribal identity, religion, community expectations, fear, percieved patroitism to hold the two commmunities apart. All with a soundbeat of the peace process, it really is 1984. “For if leisure and security were enjoyed by all alike, the great mass of human beings who are normally stupefied by poverty would become literate and would learn to think for themselves; and when once they had done this, they would sooner or later realise that the privileged minority had no function, and they would sweep it away. In the long run, a hierarchical society was only possible on a basis of poverty and ignorance.”
― George Orwell, 1984
and a Happy new year.lol


Dixie said...

Posted Today, 11:22 AM
"I remember when the dissos used to say that the Hunger-strikers never got the 5 demands and now they tell us that the Provo and INLA hunger-strikers won their demands from the brits after four Volunteers died -wish the gits would make their minds up-"

michael-mcivor / michaelhenry / SF Councillor who needs counselling...

I was passed on the above quote from Mick Henry - taken from a debate on the 1981 Hunger Strikes - by someone who thought it was so idiotic it should be shared.

Imagine Mick Henry trying to advise someone having problems with the Housing Executive.

The poor 'git' would end up living in a cardboard box having been blacklisted by the HE.

itsjustmacker said...

Harry:

I'n not a liar, its obvious you have not clicked on the "go to Link" in that original post, if you do, this is what he said, as stated in original post:

"But he added no anti-terror measure "of this kind" is "foolproof". He highlighted that the UK does not imprison British citizens who have "not been charged or convicted of a criminal offence".

Now, i suggest you click on the Link and read it all yourself, The link is BLUE, It SAYS, "Go to Link"

Its at the bottom left side of that post.

frankie said...


What does Kincora have to do with this RNU document?


Harry, Kincora is part of the grubby past.

Who's going to hold their hands up to Kincora?

itsjustmacker said...

Harry:

"What does Kincora have to do with this RNU document?

What are you directing that question to me for

itsjustmacker said...

Harry:

Sorry your so confused, so i will put it this way, If the 6 counties of ulster which is in the North Eastern Part of Our Island ,IRELAND is British, then why does it state on your British Passport, Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Harry said...

James:

The Orwell quotes are good, but here's the thing - why does generation after generation of what you refer to as the working class (and/or those in poverty) ignore the messsage of socialism, and in this context Irish Republican socialism, and instead choose to stay ignorant and to put up with systems that deliver nothing but (barely enough) bread and circuses?

Are they stupid or lazy or something else?

Harry said...

"What are you directing that question to me for"

itsjustmacker:

It's directed at you because you were conversing with Frankie about Kincora.

You even quoted some stuff relating to it and posted a link.

Harry said...

"I'n not a liar, its obvious you have not clicked on the "go to Link" in that original post, if you do, this is what he said, as stated in original post:

"But he added no anti-terror measure "of this kind" is "foolproof". He highlighted that the UK does not imprison British citizens who have "not been charged or convicted of a criminal offence"."

itsjustmacker:

I didn't say that you were a liar.

I was just questioning whether or not the guy said what you put in quotation marks most recently - "The guy stated, "that no one in Britain is imprisoned without a trial"".

That's different from what you originally posted from the article that you provided the link to, and that you just posted again.

So were those your words? - "that no one in Britain is imprisoned without a trial".

Harry said...

"Harry, Kincora is part of the grubby past.

Who's going to hold their hands up to Kincora?"

frankie:

That's all very well but what does it have to do with this RNU policy paper?

I could have dragged any number of grubby things up on this thread but didn't do so.

So why did you feel the need to bring in Kincora?

Harry said...

"Sorry your so confused, so i will put it this way, If the 6 counties of ulster which is in the North Eastern Part of Our Island ,IRELAND is British, then why does it state on your British Passport, Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

itsjustmacker:

I'm not confused. You seem to have a problem with plain language.

What are you trying to say when you refer to "the 6 counties of ulster which is in the North Eastern Part of Our Island ,IRELAND"?

Do you mean Northern Ireland?

Why does it state "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" on British passports?

That's because that's part of the name of the country that British passports relate to. The full name of the country is 'United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Northern Ireland'. Citizens of this country are referred to as British citizens.

As you know, Northern Ireland is part of this country. It's even in the name.


itsjustmacker said...

Frankie:

Did you click on the link for verification?.

"It's directed at you because you were conversing with Frankie about Kincora.

You even quoted some stuff relating to it and posted a link."

So, doe's it get to you that your Unionist friends were up to there neck in child abuse, also RUC and TOFFS (British Officers), and it was all swept underneath the carpet when Paisley new, The Judge Hughes was a set up, Not one document relating to Kincora was found in the NI office regarding an FOI request, to many red necked unionist were well covered. That is also part of the past, Laws for those who support a union with Britain and no laws for those who do not support a unionist stormont, them days are well behind us, No more looking down at the nationalist's communities, its all equal rights, you give the flag, we take it, that is our future.
Good Night a cara.

Harry said...

itsjustmacker:

What does all that whataboutery have to do with the RNU policy paper?

Are you saying that people who are involved in this RNU outfit were involved in Kincora?

marty said...

Harry a cara having a great laff at your pontificating, re being a citizen of norn iorn, well a cara my ancestors owned the fucking place before it was stolen from them so I,ll be waiting for the compo,in the meantime I,ll set my camp up as a subject not a citizen of the british state.and yes my doormat is a union jack or butchers apron as its commonly referred to in these parts with certain justification...

dingo said...

jeez when to start-
with the RNU document-debate - should be welcomed to open up more debate on analysis of revolutionary republicanism its contemporary position and future.
One aspect I did think of today is how do we counter the charlatans of illusion in the media?
The peace process is being sold as done deal from the states you have the likes of Niall O'Dowd (friendly with adams and The Clinton) and his blatant media lies - criticism of anyone that doesn't hold his pals PSF line. A total hypocrite.
Journalism today and this harks back to the -RNU discussion - in beltel - business leaders, local politicians etc got together in "LondonDerry-Derry" that 2013 offers benefit the local economy - and this "one people - one community" etc - they use two names for the same place - how about one island one Ireland!
my point is the power of the media and its in bed with the constitutional politicians.
Lots else here but I came in a bit late have read document few times.
N.B I have an Australian passport (sshh Marty-that's almost identifying info) just get the bloody union jack off the top left corner of the flag!

itsjustmacker said...

Harry:

"What does all that whataboutery have to do with the RNU policy paper?.
Your the one still harps on about Kincora.
You remind me of someone else on the blog who answers a question with a question, that's called Getting away from the subject.

"Are you saying that people who are involved in this RNU outfit were involved in Kincora?"

Your having a Giraffe.
NO, its was unionists who molested those poor boys at kincora.

Now, if you want to debate the RNU document then I'm willing to do that, but before I do, let me state my position, as I have stated in several posts.
I don't think today's Republicans could sustain an all out war which PIRA had done, and in PIRA's day, we didn't have the luxury of being armed by the British, nor, Orange Bigots in The UDR selling there weapons to Loyalist Paramilitaries and passing on info, and, were involved in Murders and bombings ,known to and allowed by Loyalist RUC and MI5 and the British army, But I honestly believe that today's Republicans have all that knowledge and would act upon it when the time arose , Its them and only them who know when that time will be. I will not be debating Kincora anymore, "You Know all about that", if you want you can write a piece about it, and, I'm sure Anthony would put it on the TPQ for you.

itsjustmacker said...

Ive just noticed that my post of 9:22 PM, January 03, 2013, was for the attention of "Harry" , and not as stated "Frankie".
Major error on my part.

My apologies.

itsjustmacker said...

Did you know that ; Prior to its conquest in the Nine Years War of the 1590s, Ulster had been the most Gaelic part of Ireland, a province existing largely outside English control. The area was underdeveloped by mainland European standards of the time it possessed few towns or villages.
Plantation began in 1606, by King James of England, but was King of Scotland.

clickto goto link

itsjustmacker said...

Maybe this is of interest to everyone. Some may already know about it, some may not. Its reference to Emails between two opposing Loyalist.
But makes sound reading into their thoughts.

sunday 10th Dec 2006 from sunday tribune.

Email s between Cornelios (Kenny) McClinton UDA to Ian Paisley Jnr

Dear Ian Jnr & D.U.P. Party Executive.
>
Grace and peace unto you and yours in Christs great omniscent Name;may your hearts and minds be filled with thoughts of him. And the peace He alone can bring.Amen.
You guys in the executive of the party need to promptly turn this situation around before it is to late. The executive need to get together and start to LISTEN to the dissenting voices within your own ranks, for such dissenters are politicians and politicians will not voice dissent unless they are certain that the grassroots DUP electorate are already voicing such complete dissent on the streets of our land!
The argument reportedly posoted by your father that the I.R.A. would be virtually destroyed once Sin Fein give their full support to the PSNI and policing board would be a sound argument IF those signing up to the Policing within Northern Ireland U.K. were honourable people, they are not. Their long war is not over-it is merely going into different mode.
>
With love and Truth
>
Dr Cornelious K. McClinton
BA (Hons);MA,D;D.Litt
Ulster /American Christian Fellowship
-----------------------------------
Ian Jnr's Reply.to above

You Keep refering to "we" as if you are a spokesman for a group or faction within the party that you are not. You are a long time supporter of that I know but that does not make you a spokesman for a faction.
The argument is that the day a republican accepts the crown services of the states police and Royal courts of justice and the rule of British law no matter what they say they cannot call themselves republicans. This will split SF and if you watched any of the Republican news outlets you will see it is tearing them apart internally, Lets not miss this opportunity to beat SF.
Ian.
-----------------------------------
McClintons reply to above
You can keep playing party politics with your groupies, flatters;and'YES men, if you so desire,but if you continue playing word games with your real power, the grassroots voters, you will soon be on the way OUT.
And while we are at it YOUNG MAN, don't you ever in your life question my loyalty or my commitment to the country thatI love! Theres more loyalty in my big toe than you have in your entire body!
Where were whippersnappers like you when I was walking the wings of the H-BLOCKS stark naked on the Loyalist Blanket Protest? Where were you then,BOY?
How dare you throw snide remarks at me, I went out on the 10th May 1977 and shot a man to take all public transport of the roads of Ulster
he shot a 46 year old Protestant Bus Driver on the Crumlin Rd because he was working during the strike Paisley snr called for
why? Because I was into shooting people dead? No! In an attempt to back up your fathers less than popular for a social Strike throughout the land.
Like the rest of you political clowns, you can make plenty of TALK but you actually DO nothing but draw wages.
I am finished with you and your party. Let history declare who exactly was the 'fool' and the 'liar' between me and thee.
Dr Kenny McClinton.
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Ian Jnr's reply to above
Hi Kenny once again thanks for your email even though I think your not seeing the entire picture. Look whose under pressure tonight-the traitors in Sinn Fein, traitors to Republicanism! Rejoice our enemy is turning against themselves.
its about time unionists recognised when such divisions within the camp of the enemy is in no small part down to our strategy of dividing them on the vital matter of law and order where credit is due!!

James said...


Harry
The answer is in the quotes. It is also in the social conditioning process from birth via in the system of government which is opposed to socialism. To answer the question fully you would have to look at the role of the:
1. Media
2. The Church
3. The education system
4. The role of Governence
5. Finanical Limitations of the Socialist movement. These are pretty powerful social conditioning tools, it is becoming harder and harder to not to conform to these conditioners, which normally result in isolation, margainalisation, labeling ect. I could name a few good factual books for you, not based on half truths or propaganda to reinforce your view of western society. Maybe is this what you mean by working class being stupid, lazy or ignorant? Or maybe it is something they simply do not know or understand. This aint there fault. Take any tabloid newspaper, how much news do you really get in the 40 odd pages after you take out the celebraty, sports, advertising columns. If you really want to find out how your society is doing, start reading the financial times. Polticians have worked out how to spin anything, to the certain extent that there is never really bad news that we havent heard before. Think about that one. I am willing to discuss any of these topics, but you would need to meet me half way and maybe order a few of the books via your library, if they are in stock. Also as a matter of interest why do you read and post on this blog? What draws you to it? Genuine question that is not loaded with anything? One question that does puzzle me is the what I refer to as working class - see below. Not you are not going to do a thatcher one on me and say there is no classes, we are all middle class.lol.

James:

The Orwell quotes are good, but here's the thing - why does generation after generation of what you refer to as the working class (and/or those in poverty) ignore the messsage of socialism, and in this context Irish Republican socialism, and instead choose to stay ignorant and to put up with systems that deliver nothing but (barely enough) bread and circuses?

Are they stupid or lazy or something else?

AM said...

Michaelhenry,

I have spoken to a few former Shinners who told me they were not allowed to read the Blanket while still in the party.

AM said...

James,

I lean towards WP and the Sinners class me as a dissident.

They try to smear all opposition. But it was something that the WP did as well. This is one of the reasons I keep referring to them having been smitten by the Stick virus.

The rise of Hitlers Fascism and poltical SF comes to mind here

While the two situations are incomparable it is worthwhile looking at both the rise of Hitler and Stalin and just observe what tactics both used. The similarities with SF are glaring but I think it is the type of thing that happens with autocratic leaders at the helm. It is advisable not to see similarities as essences.

marty said...

Anthony I hope they share the same fate..

michaelhenry said...

AM-

" I have spoken to a few former Shinners who told me they were not allowed to read the Blanket while still in the party "

Och FFS- is this the next one-

I remember going to a party meeting in Belfast
just after the event about weapons and a magazine was on sale ridiculing said event [ could have been center-point-nearly sure you wrote it ] i bought it and a few others and nobody said boo-not 1 person in Sinn Fein ever said-dont read that-Amazing the big yarns that comes out when someone leaves or got the boot-

Dixie said...

Said michaelhenry,

"...nobody said boo-not 1 person in Sinn Fein ever said-dont read that-"

Er, right.

I expect they were all too busy trying to get up the asshole of whichever top shinner was speaking to actually notice you and what you were reading MHenry. In fact I expect they thought you were reading the Beano.

AM said...

Michaelhenry,

this of course is true about former members with grievances. And I don't doubt your own experience. I know of SF offices where articles from the Blanket were actually printed out and passed round - even if it was only for the Shinners to have a laugh at Tom Hartley's expense. But my own experience would affirm the type of charges made by the people I referred to. There is a whole history of documented censorship in your party.

michaelhenry said...

Dixie-

" In fact I expect they thought you
were reading the Beano "

Well i did say that Am wrote that article that i was reading so people maybe thought it was the Beano i had-i was laughing that much- [ you walked into that one ]lol-

Dixie said...

MHenry judging by your illiterate postings across the world wide web I'm sure that no one believed you were capable of reading anything without pictures...

itsjustmacker said...

michael Henry:

"I remember going to a party meeting in Belfast
just after the event about weapons and a magazine was on sale".
Was that Magazine for an AK47?, because you's got plenty of money from the British during a deal for expenditure of said, Weapons decommissioned and none of that money went to the ordinary foot soldiers who fought the war for nothing. Your party sent so called ex combatants to Anthonys door shouting vile abuse, why?, Because He spoke the truth and that was against Adams agenda for his career in politics and, if you deny Anthony spoke the truth then you are well henpecked and below average intelligence. I know exactly what I am talking about regards decommissioning payments from the British.

AM said...

James,

Do you regard China as still fitting into the category of socialist country?

I think Standing Outside the Peace Process is a fair enough title notwithstanding your observations. The peace process should not be allowed to hold such sway that everybody must profess to be standing inside it. It should be challenged rather than acquiesced in. It is eminently defensible to buy into the peace without having to be forced to swallow the process as well. I am a dissident and I do not support the peace process. But I am all for peace and was calling for an unambiguous commitment to it while Shinner death squads were killing people. I am against any form of republican violence. If republicans want to use force let it be the force of their argument and their intellect. And all of this can be said while standing outside the peace process. But you have grasped the essence of this quite well in your comment ...like the peace, but are not too fused on the process which is entirely sectarian.

You seem to suggest a tactical accommodation with the term peace process. Not without merit James but I would need to hear a lot more before becoming convinced

marty said...

Well said Anthony















frankie said...

Frankie; fair points. But if I was a community worker in a Protestant community I wouldn't be trying to 'unite the divide'.. I'd be working to show how British imperialism was and is the root cause of the problems here and that not only have Catholics suffered as a result, but working class Protestants too.

Until they understand this there's no way forward in my opinion.


That in my opinion should be done is school. We both agreed that mixed education, same version of history and fact taught has to be introduced one day. I could be wrong but I doubt outside of 3rd level education the PUL community get much in the way of Irish history lessons at school, and that leaves the door open for their brains to be formatted at home before they are 16. What you said in a previous post about it's all well and good getting shared education in schools but the real education is at home is a sad but true reality (I agree in part that community leaders and parents have a bigger role to play than they are playing at prestent)

For todays generation it's serious damage limitation. And everyone should be thinking about making sure their grandkids don't have the same crap screwing up some of their heads. It has to be more beneficial than 'tit for tat' politics.

This shared history/future nonsense isn't working - they're (community relations council, various city councils, ofmdfm) are throwing money at it and apart from a few junkets, no real progress has been made

I'd like to know what community leaders do. I know what they don't do, thats stopping interface violence. Personally there are too many quango's eating up budgets by holding meetings about meetings and the money doesn't reach the comunities.

And the RUC/PSNI have a lot to answer for in how they police 'inferfaces'..I can (we all can), easily draw up the same list of areas that violence is more than likely going to erupt and when. Hopefully politicians & the police are going to understand prevention is better than a cure. All they are doing is papering over the cracks..Once Paddy's day is out of the way, the marching season kicks in and more violence based on symbolism will kick off.

The PUL community have to understand Paddy was Brit who became an Irishman and there is no shame in that, the famine killed Irish protestants too while their landlords got fatter and fatter...and today like their catholic neighbours Got Fcuk All from the GFA also (otherwise everyone would be debt free, having holidays in the sun and chewing the fat of the land).
Maybe community leaders should listen to the likes of Bookworm and lead communities in working class issues that will unite people instead of 'holding party lines' and trying to advance themselves within their parties<--that keeps people divided.

@Michaelhenry..

What Anthony said was..


I have spoken to a few former Shinners who told me they were not allowed to read the Blanket while still in the party


Can you explain to an 'outsider' like myself, while Anthony and others were penning the blanket why did members of PSF attack his home, hurl abuse at his pregnant wife...publicly critise and ostracise other former comrades and blanket men for having an opinion that differed from the leadership..

Read this michael.
Say's a lot more about SF today than any Blanketman...

McGlinchey alleged he was "beaten black and blue" by prison officers: "I don't regret the sacrifice I made but I've been treated like dirt by certain Sinn Féin leaders and supporters."

Talk about trying to win friends and influence people.

Michael dwell on this..

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism
Thomas jefferson....

AM said...

Itsjustmacker,

It is quite a good read. It’s a novel form of what Gilmour, O’Callaghan, McGartland and Collins have written.

AM said...

Itsjustmacker,

that is a great exchange you posted between IPJ and McClinton. What a pompous tosser McClinton is.

AM said...

Frankie,

There is no chance of SF giving an explanation for the house pickets. They were trying to cover up for the killing of Joe O’Connor and wanted to intimidate anybody who spoke out.