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| Palestinian baby killed by an Israeli air strike |
Tonight, Gaza is burning and its people are dying. The citizens of southern Israel are living in bomb sheters. At the time of writing, 22 people have been killed since the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) launched Operation Pillar of Defence yesterday with the assassination of Ahmed Jabari, the military commander of Hamas. Nineteen of the dead were Palestinians, including four babies and a pregnant woman. Three Israeli civilians were killed today by a rocket attack on the Israeli town of Kiryat Malachi, 25km north of Gaza; a four-year-old boy and two babies were also wounded in this attack. Ominously, the IDF has moved its troops south in case a ground invasion of Gaza is ordered.
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| Israeli baby injured by Palestinian rocket fire |
The
British government and the Obama administration were quick to blame Hamas for this
latest deterioration. However, according to the
Israeli newspaper Haaretz, there had been a 24-hour lull in cross-border
violence before the assassination of the Hamas military commander Ahmed Jabari.
Indeed, it appeared that Egypt had managed to secure a ceasefire by Palestinian militants after a surge in violence last
week during which about 100 rockets were fired at Israel and the IDF repeatedly
struck Gaza with its own missiles. Before last week's escalation, there had
been nearly two weeks of a lull in violence until the IDF crossed the border into Gaza in search of
tunnels on November 8. A 12-year-old Palestinian boy was killed during that IDF
incursion and several Palestinian civilians died in the days that followed. Nevertheless, it seems that
Hamas desired an end to the recent hostilities and was interested in a
long-term truce. This was confirmed by Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped to
negotiate the release of Gilad Shalit.
For over three years, Hamas fired very few rockets into Israel. Lately though, whenever its own members or Palestinian civilians were killed, Hamas came under pressure to respond. Thus, it claimed responsibility for several rocket attacks in the last few weeks. However, Hamas has tended to avoided major confrontations with Israel. It has also tried to limit attacks from Gaza by the more radical Palestinian militants, who are growing in power and in numbers due to the inability of Hamas to end the Israeli blockade and to improve living conditions for Gazans.
For over three years, Hamas fired very few rockets into Israel. Lately though, whenever its own members or Palestinian civilians were killed, Hamas came under pressure to respond. Thus, it claimed responsibility for several rocket attacks in the last few weeks. However, Hamas has tended to avoided major confrontations with Israel. It has also tried to limit attacks from Gaza by the more radical Palestinian militants, who are growing in power and in numbers due to the inability of Hamas to end the Israeli blockade and to improve living conditions for Gazans.
This is what Col.
Tal Hermoni, the outgoing IDF Gaza Division
commander, had to say last month:
Hamas is taking action to prevent an escalation and is turning from a terror group to a sovereign movement that is assuming governmental responsibility. They have to worry about feeding and educating people, and every act of terror costs them dearly. But the day the decision is made, we'll know how to bring it to its knees. There will be a [ground] operation in Gaza. The only question is when.
It seems that Hermoni's question is about to be answered.
Will Hamas now understand that trying to negotiate with the illegal Israeli state is futile? These people don't want to negotiate with Palestinians, they want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
ReplyDeleteVictory to the PFLP I say.
I agree with the above comment and I am a fair and reasonable man in relation to military action and re-action. However,I beleive this is what the Israels want, they have the backing of the UK and USA, and basically do not give a flying f..ck about world opinion.Just look at the arsenal the Israels have, a military response on the PFLP side is the equalient to throwing a disused tuna tin at a tank. Deeping distressing is a understatement to what brutality is going on there.I mean what is left for them to negotiate, they are basically on their knees with the blockage as it stands. How long will this go on for?
ReplyDeleteThe deeply vengeful, punitive character of the Israeli state coming through yet again. And full freedom from Obama to do so. I feel in my gut Israel would gas the population of Gaza were it not for the international outrage it would give rise to
ReplyDeleteJames; it'll go on until the world is ethnically cleansed of every last Palestinian. The ratio of deaths is something around 115:1. Palestinian rockets or missiles are totally ineffective against the might of the terror state, bought and paid for by American dollars and British pounds.
ReplyDeleteHamas sold their people out for a so-called peace process and fatah are no better - two governments with only self-serving interests at their core hoping for the crumbs off the Israeli dinner table.
The Palestinian people are on their knees. Theyre being exterminated in their droves but the PFLP would rather
die fighting and who could blame them?
The nazis had nothing on these fucking Israeli murderous bastards. I hope they blow Tel Aviv to kingdom come - saw a news report earlier and the bastards are playing volleyball while a few miles away people are being slaughtered. Volleyball? Zionist scum every one of them.
Anonymous hacktivists are doing a great job infiltrating their databases etc. Even got into the bank of Jerusalem. Maybe that'll make them sit up and take notice, now their economy is really a target.
Amnesty report on earlier Israeli attack
ReplyDeleteAnthony; you're right about the gassing but their confidence and arrogance is growing with the continuous backing of the superpowers. I wouldn't rule it out.
ReplyDeleteInternational disgust, abhorrence, pleading, demonstrating alone is not working. Their economy needs to be hit and Everyone needs to get behind the BDS campaign. It's not enough to walk past the stalls in castle court and ignore the Israeli cosmetic sellers - they have to be told 'I don't buy Israeli goods'.
Starbucks, Marks & Spencer, Estée Lauder - they all have to be told. BDS is having an effect, like it did in South Africa. Anonymous attacking their communications is great - hope they keep it up.
Israel has such crappy PR people, because they're modeling their course offerings on the American empire. If they would just learn from Britain, they could get this whole thing called the "Falafel Famine," and the better part of the world would adopt that term as part of historical reality.
ReplyDeleteThe potato famine really was a marvel of thought engineering, and modern tyrants would do well to learn from it. In a few hundred years, the way Israel is going now, it will be a basic, unchallenged tenet of children's history textbooks that Israel, like Hitler's Germany, was just another genocidal, elitist superstate spawned by the first world war. Mass murderers like Nazis and Zionists can get away with managing public opinion during their reigns. But, once the initial furor is over, even a standard prole will be able to look back on the genocide and see it truly.
...but that, again, was the brilliance of the British tyrants, even down to the way they manage themselves today. Coining the marketing terms ahead of time--"famine" rather than "conflict"--allows them to stick through history, and keep fooling proles hundreds of years later.
Israel is a country where women, gays, atheists are treated with equality. Where women can wear what they want, stroll down the beach in bikinis. Where gay people can love who they want. Where people can live in freedom.
ReplyDeleteGaza is an islamist fascist state where Islam is the law.
I hope Israel smashes these Islamist Hamas bastards to kingdom come. No fan of Israel but Hamas needs to stop firing rockets. I mean what would you all do if they were firing Qassams from the Shankill onto the Falls while you're just trying to live your life? Just sit back and take it? Israel has a lot to answer for but on this issue I side with them.
The sight of those dead kids I saw over on fb was sickening ,the thoughts from Belfast Bookworm and High Arka are my feelings exactly,the poster that said America,s 9-11 is Palestine,s 24-7,until America calls a halt to this genocide then those murdering bastards will continue unabated,America holds the power to halt this Obama is as guilty as the Israelis .
ReplyDeleteIreland=the most anti semitic country in the world.
ReplyDeleteTrying to boycott Israel would be like trying to boycott the U.S. military. Anything Israel needs, American taxpayers will pay for. The official military bill is in the dozens of billions, but the black books stuff and disguised economic assistance at least doubles that. America already pays for the filthy fascists' tanks, planes, bagels, TVs and pensions; if they lose a few extra dollars due to some boycott, we'll just have to start paying for their new cars and facial tissues, too.
ReplyDeleteThe New World is a country where deists, animists, and Puritans are treated with equality. Where women can worship whichever god they choose, stroll down the street in a frock without being harassed, and love who they want. Where people can live in freedom.
ReplyDeleteThe Native tribes are demonic savages where barbarity is the law.
I hope the settlers smash these savage bastards to kingdom come. No fan of Manifest Destiny but Indians need to stop trying to come back to their tipis and farming land that has been set aside for churches and immigrants. I mean, what would you do if Black Hawk took a ship to London and started scalping blokes while you're just trying to live your life? Just sit back and take it?
The American settlers have a lot to answer for but on this issue I side with them.
VERY difficult to have any empathy with Israel. IMPOSSIBLE in fact. Their actions are no different than the Nazi genocide against jews that they endlessly highlight.
ReplyDeleteTalk about shooting fish in a barrel. Oh actually it's kids in a barrel. If the Republicans had won in the USA election Israel would have attacked Iran already I think. Instead, the Gazza strip will have to do.
Ryan,
ReplyDelete"Ireland=the most anti-Semitic country in the world."
More than Iran or Saudi Arabia?
I am not racist. I have Jewish friends, one of whom is a staunch Zionist. However, I never thought that Zionism was a good idea. Why does that make me an anti-Semite?
People seem to forget that Israel was also responsible for the escalation which lead to the Gaza War 2008-09. The IDF broke a four-month-long truce with Hamas in early November 2008 when it crossed the border into Gaza on the pretext of destroying a tunnel, killing 6 Hamas fighters in the process.
Israeli officials claimed that this tunnel was an immediate threat to its soldiers, but this is not very credible. Even if the tunnel were offensive in nature, the IDF knew its location. Indeed, there are many ways Israel could have defended itself against such a threat instead of crossing the border, breaking the truce and killing people.
Moreover, according to Dr. Robert Pastor, a senior adviser to the Carter Centre, Hamas officials maintained that the tunnel was being dug for defensive purposes on their side of the border. Pastor claims that an IDF official confirmed this fact to him.
Here is an interesting interview with Robert Pastor.
Where's all the outrage about the war next door in Syria that's claimed 40,000 lives? 40 dead in Gaza and all of a sudden earth shattering outrage. If Hamas wins and Israel is destroyed then we can have yet another Islamist theocracy in the Middle East. That'll work out just great.
ReplyDeleteOh one other thing, this certainly wouldn't have happened in Israel. Thank goodness for a forward looking secular country as compared to religious theocracies like Ireland and Gaza.
ReplyDeletehttp://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/parents-slam-irish-abortion-laws-woman-dies-17725051#.UKgtwM33LjQ
Ryan: Ireland = the most anti Semitic country in the world.
ReplyDeleteWrong. We actually hold the accolade of being the most hostile country to Israel in the world. One that I am proud of.
Now go get some education you wee fool and learn how to recognise fascism before you make an even bigger asshole of yerself on the t'internet.
Ryan,
ReplyDeleteThe reason that there is more outrage about Israeli misdeeds than Syrian ones is that Israel is a Western country which is backed to the hilt by the US, the UK and many EU countries.
In any event, I have been advocating a military-enforced ceasefire in Syria since the conflict started. Here is a letter I wrote to the Irish Times in August 2011:
Sir,
I supported the US-led campaign in Libya. I did so because I believe that if civilians are being killed in large numbers by their own government, then other states must intervene. However, in the absence of such an extreme humanitarian crisis, intervention is dangerous and unjustified. That is why I opposed the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, but it is also why I now advocate intervening in Syria. Perhaps 2,000 Syrian civilians have been killed by Bashar al-Assad's forces since the unrest began some months ago and many more will be killed if the West does nothing.
Credible international pressure must be brought to bear on Dr Assad and his acolytes to stop the crackdown. If they refuse, then military means must be an option.
Liberal democracies cannot be built with guns, but murderous dictators cannot often be defeated without them. Those of us on the left must come to terms with this, or else we will be wringing our hands while thousands more die.
Yours, etc,
ALFIE GALLAGHER
Ryan "Ireland=the mostanti semitic country in the world" you say that like its a bad thing!
ReplyDeleteRight now if Israel and its disgusting backers in America were to be wiped of the face of this earth,then the only tears that I would shed are ones of relief..
Ryan- a person who likes to give us advice-
ReplyDelete" I hope Israel smashes these islamist Hamas bastards to kindom come "
Your wish has come true-they are being smashed as we type by missles fired by Israel but made and given free to them by America- you support those missles because the yank stamp is on them- Reading the Quill-reading a story by Alfie which has a picture of one of one those babys blew to kindom come must make you happy-you tell us of the reasons why Israelis have free
choice and live in freedom-but you left out the main one- they are also free to
kill the Palestinian people- you support the
7th Israeli cavaly against the Palestinian sitting bull-
Though I believe that Zionism was wrong, I certainly don't think Israel should now be "wiped off the face of the map".
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, I believe that Palestinian rocket attacks on Israeli towns are immoral and counter-productive. Like the suicide bombings of the past, the rocket attacks silence Israelis who have qualms about their government's behaviour and allow IDF spokesmen to portray Palestinians as barbarians.
A one-state solution in which the Palestinians and Israelis could live together in a secular state would be the ideal, but it is a utopian fantasy. The most pragmatic resolution to the conflict is the foundation of a viable Palestinian state on the 1967 borders alongside Israel. All of the Israeli settlements must be removed for this to happen.
From the Amnesty International report on Israel's Operation Cast Lead in late 2008 and early 2009:
ReplyDeletePage 4: [C]ontrary to repeated allegations by Israeli officials of the use of "human shields", Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. It found no evidence that
Hamas or other armed groups forced residents to stay in or around buildings used by fighters, nor that fighters prevented residents from leaving buildings or areas which had been commandeered by militants.
Page 7: The attacks that caused the greatest number of fatalities and injuries were carried out with long-range high-precision munitions fired from combat aircraft, helicopters and drones, or from tanks stationed up to several kilometres away – often against pre-selected targets, a process that would normally require approval from up the chain of command.
The victims of these attacks were not caught in the crossfire of battles between Palestinian militants and Israeli forces, nor were they shielding militants or other legitimate targets. Many were killed when their homes were bombed while they slept. Others were going about their daily activities in their homes, sitting in their yard, hanging the laundry on the roof when they were targeted in air strikes or tank shelling. Children were studying or playing in their bedrooms or on the roof, or outside their homes, when they were struck by missiles or tank shells. Others were in the street, walking or cycling. Paramedics and ambulances were repeatedly attacked while rescuing the wounded or recovering the dead.
Page 76: Amnesty International did find that Israeli forces on several occasions during Operation “Cast Lead” forced Palestinian civilians to serve as “human shields”. ... Amnesty International delegates interviewed many Palestinians who complained about Hamas’ conduct, and especially about Hamas’ repression and attacks against their opponents, including killings, torture and arbitrary detentions, but did not receive any accounts of Hamas fighters having used them as “human shields”.
I think we should start boycotting Irish products in protest of how 31 year old women are left to die a horrible and grisly death instead of being given a life saving abortion. Ireland needs to start looking at its own human rights record hypocrites.
ReplyDeleteRyan, might you first await the result of the inquiry, some medical experts in india saying it was not the lack of Abortion which caused this woman's death.
ReplyDeleteAlfie you produce documentary evidence from Amnesty intl to show how guilty the Israelis are in all this,and Amnesty intl are as weak as water on Palestinian affairs as they are on the ongoing internment of Marian and Martin,yet you still think that there is a place for a zionist state I agree the bottom of the dead sea,the chances of those murdering land grabbing greedy bastards agreeing to a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders is about the same as the dup voting for a united Ireland,get real a cara,while America bankrolls these scumbags then there will be no peace or justice in the middle east..Ryan go for the boycott...I.d say the only companies producing anything of profit here is probably jew owned !!
ReplyDeleteRyan; a note to you.
ReplyDeleteAnti-Zionism is not anti-semitism. Learn the difference.
Also, this utopia you talk about where freedom is abounding, is this not the state who conscripts it's young people for up to 3 years to it's terror army? The state who had it's children write the message 'love from israel' on the missiles it was preparing to drop on Lebanon? The state who encouraged and facilitated kibbutzim when research had proven time and time again that the kibbutz graduates were socially defective and unable to establish meaningful relationships later in life?
And that's just how it treated it's own people. You raised the issue of the Indian lady who died in Ireland after being refused an abortion. This is appalling. I don't care if medical evidence proves the miscarriage didn't kill her - if there was any possibility she should have been afforded the abortion. But that aside, do you know how many Palestinian women and their babies died on the Israeli border because they were detained by IDF troops? 35 women between 2005 and 2012. And their babies. No more current research is available.
Do you know how many babies who have been shot while still in the womb by IDF soldiers? Riddled with bullet holes while still in their mothers bellies? 16. 16 foetuses. Over 100 babies in 2011/2012 alone died in hospital in Gaza and the West Bank due to lack of electricity and water.
At what part in all this does your brain shut down and tell you this is ok?
Protests erupt worldwide against Israel's bombing campaign in Gaza
ReplyDeleteSF - Northern Ireland's Friends of Israel....
ReplyDeleteSF should read Shame Faced.
http://nifriendsofisrael.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/belfast___060509_073-first-and-deputy-first-ministers1.jpg?w=450&h=337
http://nifriendsofisrael.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/adams_mcooper03-ambassador-meets-sinn-fein.jpg?w=300&h=200
Anthony; thanks for the link.
ReplyDeleteGreat to see the Jews against Zionism out in force. Cut the tripe out of ill-informed and ill-educated posters like Ryan.
Alfie; are you feeling ok? Counter attacks enable the Israeli PR machine to portray Palestinians as barbarians? In case you haven't noticed the Israelis & their cronies in the west have been portraying arabs as barbarians for decades.
Hamas reacting to the first strike from Israel has been conveniently been brushed under the carpet yet again and with comments like this one you've made demonstrates that you too have bought into their propaganda.
Belfast Bookworm,
ReplyDeleteIt drafts its kids for 3 years because its surrounded by countries that want to destroy it. I said in my first post that Israel has a lot to answer for. But it does a lot of good, innovation, medical research advances, liberal laws and secular society. Compare it to its neighbors-Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Iran and it is a utopia of sorts. never do I hear from anyone besides Alfie of all the Arab atrocities. Strapping 18 year old boys (and girls) with explosives to go out and kill themselves and anyone else within range. Setting up of sharia law, torture, persecution of women, gays etc. Why are they still firing rockets? Israel left Gaza in 2005. And what should they do now that rockets are falling on their towns? Nothing?
The truth is the Palestinians want all of Palestine and won't stop until they get it. With demography maybe they will get it eventually.
Belfast Bookworm,
ReplyDeleteI would bet you haven't even been to Israel. You should go, it may open your eyes a little bit and give you a different view. Of course I'm just an ill informed and ill educated because I don't agree with you. Or maybe is it because I try to see both sides of the issue without the usual israel is responsible for all the worlds ills BS tripe.
My natural empathy for the Jews dating back to the Holocaust is being sorely tested by the brutality of the Israle. I do believe you are right Mackers: The Zionists would send every Palestinian to the gas chamber.
ReplyDeleteThe US is also drowning in the blood of Palestinian women and children. Almost every bomb that falls on Gaza is inscribed with "Made in America".
The pioneers all carry rifles when they're young because they're surrounded by Iroquois savages who that want to destroy it. I said in my first post that the Americans have a lot to answer for. But they do a lot of good, innovation, medical research advances, market studies, liberal laws and secular society. Compare it to its neighbors-Mohawk, Crow, Mohican, Algonquin and Plymouth Bay settlement is a utopia of sorts.
ReplyDeletenever do I hear from anyone of all the Indian atrocities. Giving 18 year old boys (and girls) tomahawks to go out and scalp any white person within range. Setting up of tribal law, torture, persecution of women, gays etc. Why are they still staging raids into settlements that have been white and Christian for nearly decades? Settlers left the western plains, like, a few years ago, and probably won't come back for a while. And what should they do now that the dirty brown savages are trying to come back home? Nothing?
The truth is the Indians want all of the Americas back and won't stop until they get it. With demography maybe they will get it eventually because they breed too much and have no decent Christian marriages and aren't white or western at all.
I would bet you haven't even been to New York. You should go, it may open your eyes a little bit and give you a different view of how savage and stupid the natives are and how good it is that they got wiped out by settlers with better guns and real parliamentary buildings built on the ravaged settlements and decayed bones of the dead aboriginal children wiped out during the initial landings.
Of course I'm just an ill informed and ill educated because I don't agree with you. Or maybe is it because I try to see both sides of the issue without the usual "puritan settlers and dutch east india company is responsible for all the colonies' ills" BS tripe.
High Arka its was the europeans who introduced "scalping "to the American natives,the white man did the scalping....
ReplyDeleteHigh Arka,
ReplyDeletewhy don't you try and come up with an original thought/argument. I'm not sure why you keep doing that? Too much time on your hands or just a futile attempt at humor. Since you're in Massachusetts you're also just a settler living on stolen land from the original natives? Time to move back to Europe.
The liberals seeking an explanation for suicide bombings should look at the pictures of Palestinian children killed by Israle. What if this was your own child? Dispair is the midwife of reckless acts of retalitation.
ReplyDeleteRyan; just how stupid are you exactly? Israel left Gaza in 2005? Grow up you stupid wee boy and stop listening to the shite your mates in the bars are spurting. Do a little bit of research and you will find this is a ridiculous statement. You will be embarrassed when you do so.
ReplyDeleteI have never been to Israel. You're 100% correct. I would never support their illegal economy. But I have been to Auscwitz and I have been to Sachenshausen and I learned a lot in both places; that genocide can and does happen while the world fiddles. You should go. You might learn something.
I have built up a picture of you - a kind of profile; you're a 20 something working class male from a Protestant background. Perhaps from the shankill, rathcoole or east belfast. You've seen Palestinian flags hanging from the lampposts in your neighbouring republican communities and think that, just because 'those Taigs' support Palestine, you have to support Israel or at least justify its existence.
You're so predictable but I would urge you to step outside the box and have an independent thought. Look at the history and how the greed of imperialism has brought Palestine to its knees.
Those 18 year old kids you speak of, the ones with the bombs strapped to their bodies, have you ever thought what drives them to do such an act? They've nothing else to live for because Israel and its existence has ensured that.
Alec; I totally understand where you're coming from.
High Arka; I like your style but you remind me of someone else who used to frequent this blog.
ReplyDeleteLazarus?
Belfast Bookworm,
ReplyDelete"Hamas reacting to the first strike from Israel has been conveniently been brushed under the carpet yet again and with comments like this one you've made demonstrates that you too have bought into their propaganda."
Given that I have accurately outlined the timeline of the recent escalation and demonstrated that Israel forces were primarily responsible for it, how can you accuse me of buying into Israeli propaganda?
What exactly have the rocket attacks achieved, other than international condemnation and a few dead Israeli civilians? Israel has one of the most powerful military forces in the entire world. It is impossible for Palestinians to achieve their own state by armed struggle. Mass agitation, activism and economic boycott is the only way forward.
I am fascinated by the response of Irish republicanism, the Irish people's nationalist movement, with Zionism, the Jewish people's nationalist movement. I think the anti-Zionism I see expressed among some Irish republicans may stem from the fact that they have traditionally been the military underdogs, and that they therefore have a natural sympathy with the Palestinians, also underdogs. But you know, it's not immoral to be the stronger, and I wish that folks could see the underlying similarity in ideology--the claim that the Irish/Jewish people should be sovereign in their own lands. (The key difference, I suppose, is that the Irish, unlike the Jews, were not expelled en masse from their land as far as I know).
ReplyDeleteThis is not to deny the legitimacy of Palestinian national aspirations, and that is why a two-state solution is the right answer, just as one could say that the Unionists' wishes in Northern Ireland justify the compromise the Irish and the British have reached. (One could note that Hamas rejects the two-state solution, as do some political factions within Israel). Nor is it to deny that Israeli military responses to rocket fire from Gaza must be proportional to the threat faced, though anyone who thinks that Hamas can fire rockets from highly urban population centers and that Israel could target those rocket sites without incidental civilian casualties is misinformed.
Ted,
ReplyDeletethanks for contributing to this most challenging of discussions.
Tffolkman; it is not immoral to be the stronger. No. But it is immoral to be a mighty aggressor hellbent on extermination.
ReplyDeleteAlso; I think the anti-Zionism you see displayed among Irish republicans stems from a degree of intelligence, education and a sense of right and wrong, not as you say, because of some underdog syndrome.
Oh yeah and the expulsion thing. Next you'll tell me that Moses did part the seas. Give me a break.
Alfie; counter attacks may not be effective but can you explain how they are immoral? How can defensive actions be immoral? Hamas in utter desperation are firing almost blindly into Israel but every rocket is a defensive one.
This is the Israeli propaganda I refer to.
Ted,
ReplyDeleteIn 1881, at the dawn of Zionism, there were 450,000 Arabs in Palestine, who amounted to 90% of the population and who lived in about 800 agricultural villages and towns throughout the country. There were only about 25,000 Jews; almost of all of them lived in Jerusalem and they were ultra-Orthodox, non-nationalist and poor. Should these people not have had a say in who arrived en masse to their lands?
Zionism was peculiar among nationalist movements in that the Jews were a tiny minority in the territory they wished to become their nation state and had been for well over a thousand years. In fact, most of them lived in Europe and weren’t even Zionists until the advent of the genocidal anti-Semitism of the Nazis. Even when the UN partition plan was announced in 1947, Jews constituted about a third of the population of Mandate Palestine and were a bare majority in the planned Jewish state.
Palestine was a polity of sorts under the Ottoman Empire. It officially and legally became a geopolitical polity under the British in 1920, when Arab Muslims constituted about four-fifths of the population and demanded an end to Zionist immigration. Even in 1947, they still outnumbered Jews by a 2:1 ratio. So, essentially, the permitting of Zionist immigration into Palestine in spite of vociferous local opposition and the eventual creation of a Jewish state on a greater part of the territory was a violation of the sovereign wishes of the majority Arab population, who had desired an independent state in Palestine from at least the end of WWI. I mean, why should several hundred thousand Arabs have been forced to live as a minority in an artificially-created Jewish state when Zionist Jews themselves were unwilling to live as a minority in Palestine as a whole?
I don't believe that any ethnic group has the right to return to lands which their ancestors left or were expelled from over a thousand years beforehand. Thus I don't think Zionism was sensible or legitimate. My understanding is that most Jews were content to remain in Europe until the rise of Nazism. Essentially the Arabs of Mandate Palestine were being asked to give up a significant proportion of the land in which they were in the majority for the creation of a Jewish state, and the most powerful justification for such a policy was the fact that Europe had long mistreated and eventually tried to exterminate its Jewish population. If I had been a Jew in the 1930s and 40s, I would probably have been a Zionist, but I'm not sure that that makes Zionism legitimate, for the Arabs of Palestine would have to pay for the sins of European anti-Semitism.
The underlying cause of the conflict is the occupation of Palestine by Israle. Palestinian rights are secondary to the national security interests of Israle, as well as, the regional interests of the United States. There is no solution that fails to recognise the Palestinian demand for national self determination and an end to the occupation.
ReplyDeleteYou bet, Anthony. I'll just add that--well, look, I don't like to call anyone an anti-Semite who claims not to be one. But it is at least perverse and unhinged to compare the Israelis with the Nazis, particularly because we live in a world where genocide or attempted genocide really happens, and particularly because of Hamas's explicitly anti-Jewish rhetoric and aims. Given Israel's military dominance, the fact that there has been no Palestinian genocide is conclusive evidence that Israel does not desire a Palestinian genocide, no matter what else you think of the Israelis' policies vis-a-vis Gaza or the West Bank.
ReplyDeleteTed,
ReplyDelete"[T]he fact that there has been no Palestinian genocide is conclusive evidence that Israel does not desire a Palestinian genocide, no matter what else you think of the Israelis' policies vis-a-vis Gaza or the West Bank."
Not necessarily. Western governments indulge Israeli repression and settlement, but do you really think that they would countenance a Palestinian genocide? I think that the Israeli government has a very good idea of how far it can push the envelope.
Human rights organisations have documented just how little the IDF cares for the safety of Palestinian civilians. Look at this report.
Well said Ted. To compare the Israelis to Nazis is obscene and totally ignorant of history.
ReplyDeleteBookworm your profile could not have been more off the mark. But the fact my posts are on a level of a Shankill loyalist tells me I need some major improvement with my writing skills.
Belfast Bookworm: Fair-minded readers will excuse me when I refuse to engage with you. I mean, really.
ReplyDeleteAlfie: There's no question that the sixth Aliyah, the Jewish immigration to Israel following the Holocaust, and the declaration of the State of Israel, is morally complex or ambiguous, though plainly grounded in international law, e.g., the UN partition plan. There are lots of moral ambiguities in the formation of states and in the determination of their boundaries. Both the United States and Ireland provide examples. But your own comment goes a long way towards explaining why the European Jews sought a new start in Israel: "... most of them lived in Europe and weren’t even Zionists until the advent of the genocidal anti-Semitism of the Nazis." Now, we could have a very long discussion about all kinds of aspects of this--the history of the Arab-Israeli wars, the relative merits of the political systems in Israel versus its Arab neighbors, etc., but let me bring this back to my point, which was surprise that Zionism gets as little sympathy as it does from Irish nationalists. Now, you may be someone who thinks that nationalism in all its forms is pernicious, which is a fine position to take, and which seems to me at any rate to justify continued British rule over Northern Ireland in accordance with the will of the majority of the people in Northern Ireland. But what surprises me is people who think that all Ireland should be one state, just because it is populated by the Irish, and who have no sympathy for Zionism. That's the point that needs explaining. Is it the length of the Jewish exile that creates the feeling that Jewish aspirations for a return to their national homeland are no longer valid? That seems to me to be the only explanation. My reply is that the Jewish people were perhaps unique among all exiled people in Europe that I know of (maybe the Roma are an exception?) in not dying out in a national sense after their defeat and exile, and thus they were a unique case that called for a unique solution. But the solution, as you point out, is morally ambiguous and calls for a compromise solution. No doubt the current Israeli government could be more conciliatory, but one could say the same of the Palestinian Arabs in 1948 or the Arab states in 1967.
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteagreed, it was a catastrophe what happened. But it's in the past. What can you do now, send the 6 million Jews in Israel back to Europe? If thats the case then round up the 900,000 Ulster Prods and send them back to Scotland.
tfolkman,
ReplyDeleteAlfie covered this indirectly, but the reason Irish nationalism and Zionism don't meld well is because Irish nationalism involves a real ancestral connection to land between an aboriginal people that was attacked by foreign invaders. Zionism is the reverse philosophy: one of going to a different land and killing the people there, then building settlements atop the blood-soaked dirt.
For Israelis now, a generation or so after the invasion began, to claim that they are "nationalist" would be like the British to use claims of heritage and nationalism to demand that all Celtic peoples stop resisting and go back to--oh, the channel?--back to somewhere else, so that the Brits can "reclaim" England.
This kind of counterfactual claim isn't as farfetched as it might seem, and it's not unique to Zionism. Think of Wales--the only country in the western world where the word for a person ancestrally descended from the land was changed to mean foreigner. The early British did that, when they first began slaughtering the Celtic peoples: they renamed lands and fucked with language in order to not merely kill the culture and the children, but try to rewrite history so that the native peoples would be condemned forever to a spirit-land of nonexistence.
Israel is constantly trying to do that now, fabricating historical documents about how there were supposedly more Jews in Palestine for X-thousand years than there really were. They're still confined a little by history, so even though they can fudge the numbers (Alfie gave you some pretty realistic ones above) a bit, you can't change the percentages to make it look like there were "more" Jews there than there were Arabs. Go read an honest book by an honest Jew scholar, Norm Finkelstein, called "The Birth of Israel," and he'll compare real history and false, and you can decide which one looks more believable.
(And of course, the Jews who lived there knew nothing about Zionism, until the Zionists showed up to pitch race-war. The Jews who actually did stay behind were intermarrying partners of the Palestinians, and their Jewish blood has no relationship to a bunch of Amero-European transplant Israelis squealing about nationalism and bristling with weapons.)
It has been the linchpin of the Zionist project since the beginning to carry out the completion of the Crusades from centuries ago, and wipe all the dark-skinned natives out of the holy land. Zionism is one of the post-World War 1 movements of dictatorial genocide, and moved quickly to eat up Palestine, hand in hand with America and Russia moving to swallow up and tyrannize the rest of the world.
It's not at all unfair to call it similar to fascism; it is fascism, and a pure fascism of the early 20th century type, just like the Third Reich. The same western investors bankrolled the Zionist project as paid for Hitler's street riots and victory over Hindenburg. American elites have been playing this protracted genocide for all its worth, and it's no wonder that the lordly heirs of the Celtic genocide are so audaciously supporting Israel now, as Israel lives out the British past. There are millions of Jews across the world, including in Iran and America, who are sick and scared to death of Israel, but Zionists will always claim that Zionism is Judaism, just like Americans will tell you to go live in a cave in Afghanistan if you don't support drone strokes, and will cooperate with Tony Blair in handing IRA refugees over to British justice when the Irish fled to the land that revolted against King George.
If that isn't enough irony for you, then go watch on television as the descendants of the Chosen People slaughter the filthy Canaanites for being so sinful and so not-chosen.
(For more on Celt stuff, see this one's Neverpotter and the Wardrobe link.)
Ted, I was looking for another article when I came across this one. Please take a few minutes to digest the info. It's hard to argue against facts.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I find it easier to forgive the spoken word, much easier than forgiving an abhorent crime. I think the "Irish" criticism of Israeli actions is more in-line with our sense of human rights and not the underdog?
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/dissecting-idf-propaganda-the-numbers-behind-the-rocket-attacks.html
Ryan
ReplyDelete'agreed, it was a catastrophe what happened. But it's in the past. What can you do now, send the 6 million Jews in Israel back to Europe? If thats the case then round up the 900,000 Ulster Prods and send them back to Scotland.'
what a beautiful sentiment to begin the week with.
I and other people see the actions of Israel as a form of genocide by stealth,and I have no problem in comparing the Israeli govt to the nazis, both have used a race of people to demonise,and both have been filled with murderous intent against innocent people, the murder of little children is so fucking wrong Obama and the western govts need to stop this," they have sown the wind they shall reap the whirlwind"
ReplyDeleteI was living in U.S.A for 10 years and still talk to friends there. On Friday night we spoke about the U.S. election and he said he was glad to see Obama back in the white House. I said 'well any thing is better than Romney', to which he answered 'Romney didnt lose the election'. My friend told me the view is that Netanyahu and the Israeli lobby lost the election. Now we know Obama has absolutely no time for Netanyahu and his extremism but in USa you have to dance to the Israeli tune. Now, with Israeli elections on the horizon, Netanyahu is very afraid his own voters will turn against him after the damage he has caused to ties with USA. We know that Netanyahu was directly involved in US elections helping the Romney campaign. Without Romney, Netanyahu's dreams of attacking Iran are futile.I think Netanyahu went to war to win back support at home and just to let Obama know that Israel doesnt need your permission to go to war. And who better to take out his vengeful anger on, than the besieged Gazans.
ReplyDeleteIf you read Robert Fisk you'll have a better insight in to what is happening in the Maghreb and the Levant and that demonic state - Iran......and why it is happening.
ReplyDeleteTed,
ReplyDeleteYou argue that my position on Zionism implies that I ought to have been in favour of the creation of Northern Ireland. Let me tell you why I am not.
In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, about three-quarters of people in Ireland wanted meaningful self-government. After three decades of constitutional efforts by Irish politicians to achieve this, the best offer from the British was little more than “glorified local government” for 26 counties of the 32 counties.
Ireland was considered a separate country within the Union by the British government. It says so in the Act of Union itself. Indeed, Ireland had its own administration, police force and regiments in the British Army. Until 1801, it had its own parliament and had been governed as a constitutional entity since the Norman invasion; even before that, it had recognised itself as some sort of political/cultural unit. Furthermore, a large majority of the people in this entity supported some form of independence. So there were very good grounds for treating Ireland as a distinct state within the UK rather than as an inseparable part of Britain; similar grounds did not exist for the six counties in 1920.
There was never a strong unionist majority in Ulster and there was no credible border between unionists and nationalists. If I remember the statistics correctly, the Protestant population of Ulster was measured at about 56% in the 1911. Moreover, Protestants only had strong majorities in Antrim and Down; indeed, in five of the nine Ulster counties - including Fermanagh and Tyrone - Catholics were in a majority. Only in Antrim and in Down did Protestants have a formidable majority; in Antrim, they outnumbered Catholics by 4 to 1.
Did nationalists have the right to partition Antrim? I mean, if you can partition a country, why not counties and cities? If the unionist minority in Ireland had the right to opt out of 32-county Home Rule, why shouldn't the nationalist minorities in each of the six counties have been allowed to opt out of Northern Ireland?
It is also worth noting that unionists in Ireland did not have a distinct national identity, nor did they have aspirations to their own independent state. Indeed, they saw themselves as a loyal community of British citizens who should not have to endure Irish democracy. Of course, unionists had the right to stay in Ireland and the right to demand a non-sectarian, secular government for the country. However, they did not have the right to carve the country up.
If Ulster unionists were within their rights to demand a partition of Ireland in the early 20th century, then wouldn't Scottish nationalists also be entitled to demand a partition of Scotland if that were their wish? Indeed, wouldn't the same such right also apply if Muslim majorities emerge in Bradford or Leicester and demand their own statelets?
Minorities should be respected, but not pandered to.
Oh, my! That didn't go well at all.
ReplyDeleteMe: Isn't it interesting how little sympathy there is among Irish nationalists for Jewish nationalism, given the underlying similarity in ideology?
Response: There is no Jewish nationalism, because the Jews have no real historical connection to the land of Israel.
Me: I'm sure you were just exaggerating or that you got carried away, but it's not really fair to compare the Israelis with the Nazis, is it?
Response: No, we really meant it. They're just like the Nazis. Just like them.
I suppose now I need to make the call to my friends in the Jewish cabal that secretly controls the media, world governments, and the financial system and tell them to remove all traces of this post from the Internet or something!
I choose to believe that not everyone who calls himself or herself an Irish nationalist holds views such as the views expressed by some here. So if you are reading this and you find some of the views you've seen here repugnant, please speak up--on-line or off-line--and say so! It's not right to let the worst views be the loudest views.
Ted,
ReplyDeleteI have never compared Zionism to Nazism and I don't think it is right to do so. I also believe that Israel has the right to exist today, but I have argued that its creation was extremely unfair on the people who had lived on those lands for over a thousand years.
The vast majority of the Jews had left or were expelled from Palestine by the 2nd century AD; indeed, the Israeli demographer Sergio Della Pergola argues that Jews were in a minority in the region from the Byzantine period onwards.
If the vast bulk of Irish Catholics had left or had been expelled from Ireland over a thousand years ago, would anyone still be demanding their right to return? I assure you that I would not, just as I do not advocate the Palestinian right of return today. Nor would I accept potential Native American claims to take back the areas their tribes occupied five hundred years ago.
Such whataboutery is impractical; it requires a new group of people to suffer today for the sins of their ancestors.
BKeane
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you're implying but Obama has publicly come out in support of Israel and denounced Hamas as the instigators of the war...privately Obama can't stand Netanyahu and the Israelis, we saw that with Assanges leaked documents, but publicly he is the opposite...Israel wags the dog my friend and we can see the same happening in British politics with the growth in influence of the Israeli lobbyists there...do you think Miliband would be any different if he got in?
Alfie, I don't disagree with much of what you write. Obviously not every commenter here has compared the Israelis to the Nazis nor denied the historical connection between the Jews and the land of Israel, though some have.
ReplyDeleteThe only point I would argue with you is your point about what would have happened had there been an Irish exile. I suppose that if the Irish had kept the return to their island as one of the central tenets of their culture in the intervening years, and if they had been the victims of a genocide in the countries where they had mostly been living, and if most other countries weren't willing to take them in, then the answer to your question might not be a simple as you believe it to be. That's why I wrote that the case of the Jews is, more or less, a unique case that demanded a unique solution in the last century--but, obviously, one that balances Palestinian rights, as the UN partition tried to do and as the two-state solution now would do.
Because there are no mass graves does not mean that there is no genocide occurring.
ReplyDeleteA farmer looked out his kitchen window one morning and spotted a tent in his garden. When he went to enquire where it had come from he was shot at. He returned to his farm house and rang the authorities. The authorities surrounded the tent and demanded that the occupants surrender their arms and leave. The authorities were then shot at and after much deliberation they left. The farmer then considered his position. He thought long and hard about his predicament until from exhaustion he fell asleep. When he awoke he was lying in the street and those who were in the tent were now in his house. When he rang the authorities they responded by telling him this had been deemed by people he had never met or heard off many years before and there was nothing that could be done – it was the law. The farmer, looking around, had lost all. He looked down the street and noticed all his neighbours were in the same situation. He wasn’t alone. They approached each other and began to discuss what they could do. They decided to fight back. They decided to remonstrate with the occupiers. Those in the house shot at them every time they approached and now the authorities arrived, arrested them, imprisoned them indefinitely and condemned them as terrorists. Those who didn’t fight fled from the occupiers of the house who attacked them, the occupiers viewing them as a threat to their security, land and their birth right…the authorities agreed.
They, the farmers had fought the world and they lost. For the world agreed with the occupiers, for the world had committed a grave sin against the occupiers and in order to redeem their souls they, the world, decided that those who suffered at their hands should be given the lands of those who were ignorant of worldly affairs and innocent of the world’s sin.
Many years later, sitting in the refugee camp the farmer suddenly realised how big the camp had become!
Ted tell me the difference between the nazis and the Israeli state,both have deliberately targeted a section of the community to oppress and victimise,to steal their land and property,to kill them and their children at a whim, and both had a fanatical belief that history belonged to them.and you tell me their is no similarity.both were/are bastards...
ReplyDeleteTfolkman; your assertion that Irish republicans empathise or feel solidarity towards the Palestinian cause just because like us, they are the underdogs undermines mine and the arguments of others who feel as we do because we believe that the terror state of Israel is wrong in their actions and indeed in their very existence.
ReplyDeleteMassacre, the deliberate destruction of infrastructure, the prevention and destruction of sustainable industry in farming and fishing, the deprivation of electricity and water, attacking hospitals and schools, detaining pregnant women to their deaths on the border is genocide whether you believe or accept it or not.
As I said earlier, the nazis had nothing on these zionists.
Ryan;
ReplyDelete'Bookworm your profile could not have been more off the mark. But the fact my posts are on a level of a Shankill loyalist tells me I need some major improvement with my writing skills'
I wasn't criticising your writing skills. I was criticising your lack of understanding and vacuous comments. I would never criticise the writing skills of anyone and am disappointed you did.
Niall,
ReplyDeleteyou should throw in a few links to Fisk
Ted,
ReplyDeleteThe desire to return to the lands which their ancestors held in antiquity does not seem to have been a significant tenet of Jewish culture until the 1880s. Moreover, it was not a dominant feature until the 1930s and 1940s. Even today, the majority of the world's Jewish population still lives outside of Israel.
Before immigration restrictions were enacted in 1924, the vast majority of Jews fleeing persecution and pogroms in Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries chose to settle in the USA rather than Palestine. Indeed, between 1881 and 1924, some 2 million Jews had left Europe for America, while only about 120 thousand had gone to Palestine.
In any case, even if the Jewish community had long aspired to return to Palestine, one cannot claim that they had the right to do so unless one also accords the same right of return to the Palestinian Arab refugees of 1948.
Mr. Folkman,
ReplyDelete"Response: There is no Jewish nationalism, because the Jews have no real historical connection to the land of Israel."
All human beings have "historical connections" to all places on this planet. However, saying that "Jews" have a historical connection to a particular spot (Canaan) that they invaded and committed genocide in during the time of their oldest and greatest history (Torah) is like saying that "Christians" should have a historical connection to "Rome."
So, if American Baptists from Kentucky invaded Italy and began massacring Italian children, would it be any kind of defense to say that the new Christian State Christrael has a "right to exist" because Christians have a historical connection to the land of Christrael?
No, of course not. That would be an utterly ridiculous argument. Following a certain religion, or claiming a certain type of racial descent, should not entitle you to kill people. That argument was not accepted when Hitler made it, and it should not be accepted when Zionists make it.
Again, if you read the (Jewish, but it shouldn't matter to you) work of Norm Finkelstein, and other Jewish scholars of the history of Zionism--read just the Jewish ones, so that you don't feel compelled to disregard anything that's not Jewish--you'll be able to see how early Zionists funded acts of terror against Jews living in Europe and across the Middle East, including bombing families, in order to scare them into moving to Israel and becoming settlers and soldiers.
Iraq, in particular, used to have a thriving Jewish community, which--as in Iran nowadays--Jews lived happily alongside Muslims and Christians and Baha'i, as they had been doing for centuries.
Until America and Zionists decided that it was time to bomb families to scare the others into moving to the new western militarized nation known as Israel.
Israel is just the biggest of the American military bases in the Middle East. We have 800+ of them across the world, but Israel ensures that we have an entire country in our pocket, and it can make us look like we're being humane when we "render it aid" to blow up recalcitrant Arabs.
Meanwhile, just like poor conservative Americans, all of the settlers there hoot and cheer about national pride, while sending their children to get shot and bombed in war, and putting themselves at risk for blowback attacks on the bus or in the office.
What's really cool, for the planners of this whole thing, is when random people around the world actually believe the story, and "support" America's forward base policy in a way they never would for any other American base.
When it comes to the historical right of the Jews to return to the land of their ancestors there's an important part of the story that's often left out. And that is that 90 per cent of people in the world today who call themselves Jewish are descendant from the Khazars and not the Israelites, this particular ethnic group are known as and refer to themselves as Ashkenazi Jews after the region from where they originate - Khazaria. Every Israeli Prime Miniser has been an Askenazi Jew so when they proclaim the right of the Jews to return to their homeland they are willingly lying - it is not their homeland and well they know it when they openly refer to themselves as Ashkenazi Jews. Their real homeland of the Ashknenazi's is 800 miles away from Palestine in a land known today as Georgia and they have absolutely no ethnic connection to the Jewish people banished from the Holy Land thousands of years ago. The land of Israel then is not theirs by birthright but the opposite is true for the Palestinian's
ReplyDeleteLast responses before I leave (some of) you to your unseemly rants and I return to my day job.
ReplyDeleteSean Bres: You don't know what you're talking about. See, e.g., this 2000 paper from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. No doubt the National Academy of Sciences is merely a pawn of the Zionist conspiracy to gin up a connection to the land of Israel for nefarious purposes?
High Arka: Are you the High Arka who has been banned from the Reclusive Leftist and The Philosopher's Stone and taken to task on I Blame The Patriarchy? Is that you? It's hard to know because you apparently comment anonymously or pseudonymously. I challenge you to attach your real name to your comments, which I don't think are worth further discussion.
Alfie: You deserve a less hostile response than some of the less savory commenters. I would say you are incorrect both as a matter of Jewish aspirations over time and as a matter of historical fact. To understand the age-old Jewish aspirations to return to the land of Israel, it is enough to study the daily liturgy and other sources such as the Haggadah and pre-modern legal sources on the desirability or even requirement, from the perspective of Jewish law, of living in the land of Israel. As a matter of history, small numbers of Jews have always migrated to Israel, sometimes tied to expulsions (e.g., from England or from Spain), sometimes tied to various religious or messianic movements, sometimes tied to persecutions such as the Crusades. But you are right that modern political Zionism has its beginning in the late 19th century.
Sean; why let the truth get in the way of a good oul yarn though?
ReplyDeleteThis biblical nonsense we're force fed by zionists, their supporters and apologists is sickening. It's on a par with their anti-Semitic hysteria.
High Arka; great analogy.
Ted,
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I don't know an awful lot about Judaism. Indeed, even though I was raised as a Catholic, I don't really understand that faith either! Thus, I accept what you say about age-old Jewish religious aspirations to return to the Holy Land.
However, my point still stands. There was no large-scale attempt by Jews to return to the lands of their ancestors until the Zionist movement was founded. Even then, most Jews stayed put or immigrated to the USA when faced with persecution. In any event, the notion that an ethno-religious group has the right to return to lands from which their ancestors left or were expelled over a thousand years beforehand seems like madness to me.
That being said, I agree that this discussion has been very heated to say the least. I know people are upset and angry about the terrible civilians casualties being inflicted in Gaza, but I think that using inflammatory language is more likely to close minds rather than open them.
When debating such a heated and important issue on the internet, we all must be mindful of how ridiculous conspiracy theories can start to fly around.
ReplyDeleteFor example, some people worry that various western intelligence agencies have paid operatives creating fraudulent social networking accounts of various types that can be used to disseminate information friendly to a war-making financial elite.
This rubbish is so ridiculous that it doesn't even merit discussion. The free democracies of America, Britain, and Israel would never condone their CIA, Mossad or MI6 agents engaging in such silliness with taxpayer dollars, anymore than newspaper publishers or television producers would mar their journalistic credibility by printing articles or airing TV/radio programmes with disguised messages.
Whatever stance you take on the unfortunate difficulties happening right now in Gaza, we must be reasonable and allow Israel to defend itself. Surely, in a few years, the Palestinians will see that they can't be treated as a responsible people as long as they support terrorist organizations that would dare launch missiles into Israeli communities, who have faced such persecution by the many enemy states that have surrounded them since 1948.
Alfie, while I don't agree with you, the open-mindedness in your comment is worth more than all the screeds we've seen elsewhere in this thread!
ReplyDeleteIf you are interested in the source for my assertions about the history of Jewish desire to return to the land of Israel, you might want to read the central daily prayer known as the Amidah, which contains a prayer for the ingathering of the exiles. Or you could look at the end of the Passover Haggadah: "Next year in Jerusalem!" But my favorite, for sheer beauty, is Ps. 137, which is said as part of the grace after meals on most days and which both Jews and Christians have regarded as one of the most beautiful psalms. If you like poetry, perhaps you will appreciate it:
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
Upon the willows in the midst thereof we hanged up our harps.
For there they that led us captive asked of us words of song, and our tormentors asked of us mirth: 'Sing us one of the songs of Zion.'
How shall we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land?
If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember thee not; if I set not Jerusalem above my chiefest joy.
Here is another poem, this one by the twelfth-century poet Yehuda Halevy, who lived in Spain:
My heart is in the East, and I am at the ends of the West;
How can I taste what I eat and how could it be pleasing to me?
How shall I render my vows and my bonds, while yet
Zion lies beneath the fetter of Edom, and I am in the chains of Arabia?
It would be easy for me to leave all the bounty of Spain --
As it is precious for me to behold the dust of the desolate sanctuary.
Look, poems won't convince anyone of anything, nor should they. I quote these just as examples of the centuries-old Jewish longing to return to the land of Israel, which was the point on which you raised a question.
Alfie, I would love, by the way, to learn something similar about the Irish. Is there a poem that all Irish people know that expresses love of their land?
ReplyDeleteTfolkman; yes. There is such a song. It's called 'Go on Home' :-)
ReplyDeletetfolkman there is indeed a very popular poem and song that is recited and sung by many here in Ireland,a simple little ditty with a big message which is relevant to those occupiers of stolen Palestinian land.
ReplyDeleteGo on British soldiers ,go on home
Have you no fucking home of your own
For 800 years we fought you without fear.
And we,ll fight for 800 more
we,ll fight the British/Israeli soldiers for the cause
We,ll never bow to soldiers because
Throughout history we were born to be free
So get out British/Israeli bastards leave us be..
tfolkman:
ReplyDelete"Sean Bres: You don't know what you're talking about. See, e.g., this 2000 paper from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. No doubt the National Academy of Sciences is merely a pawn of the Zionist conspiracy to gin up a connection to the land of Israel for nefarious purposes?"
Let's take a look at another far more credible opinion on this, the internationally renowned Jewish Encyclopedia. University of Toronto librarian, Jenny Mendelsohn, in an online guide to major sources of information about Jews and Judaism, writes of the Encyclopedia;
"Although published in the early 1900s, this was a work highly regarded for its scholarship. Much of the material is still of value to researchers in Jewish History."
In 2003 Rabbi Joshua L. Segal described it as "a remarkable piece of Jewish scholarship". So we can say that the Encyclopedia has established its credentials as a laudable work detailing the history and the current state of the historic Jewish people.
So what does the Jewish Encyclopedia have to say about this Ashkenazi Jew "conspiracy"? Well let's see....
The 1925 Encyclopedia speaks of the existence of the Ashkenazi Jews and acknowledges that these "converted Jews" represent approximately 90 per cent of so-called "world Jewry". It also contains a startling admission, that the so called enemy of the Jews, Esau (also known as Edom, see Genesis 36:1), now actually represents the Jewish race, when on page 42 of Volume V it is stated,
"Edom is in modern Jewry."
So what's being said is that these Ashkenazi Jews, who as was admitted represent 90 per cent of the so-called Jewish population, are actually "gentiles" or "goyim" themselves.
All this ethnic, racial stuff can be considered as jibber-jabber or whatever, that's at the individual's discretion. But it's important that if you're going to speak of a historic Jewish Nation and its "right to return" then you need to get your facts straight.
The biblical right of return does not apply to the Ashkenazi Jews.
At the end of the day Israel is a Zionist state and not a Jewish state. It merely uses the historical Jewish people to further its ideological ends, it has no connection to the original Jewish people scattered from the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Those who set up and now run the state of Israel are Khazar's and not Israelites no matter how you spin it.
"I know thy works, and tribulation and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."
Revelations 2:9
:D
ReplyDeleteJust returned from a rally in belfast city centre in support of the Palestinian people. Organised very quickly just last night, its estimated around 1500 people came out to show solidarity and demand an end to the Zionist murderous rampage in Gaza where another 18 people have been slaughtered today.
ReplyDeleteAnother rally is planned for Belfast on Saturday, congregating at the Art College. Please come and show your support. Time to be confirmed.
Ted,
ReplyDeleteSorry for not getting back to you sooner. Apart from the Irish Republic's national anthem, I am not sure that there is a poem or song that all Irish people know which expresses their national sentiments.
I come from the west of Ireland. Whenever I want to remember my ancestors, I sing this song by the great 19th century balladeer Thomas Davis:
The West's Awake
When all beside a vigil keep,
The West's asleep, the West's asleep.
Alas! and well may Erin weep
When Connacht lies in slumber deep.
There lake and plain smile fair and free,
'Mid rocks their guardian chivalry.
Sing, Oh ! let man learn liberty
From crashing wind and lashing sea.
That chainless wave and lovely land
Freedom and nationhood demand;
Be sure the great God never planned
For slumb'ring slaves a home so grand.
And long a brave and haughty race
Honoured and sentinelled the place.
Sing, Oh! not even their sons' disgrace
Can quite destroy their glory's trace.
For often, in O'Connor's van,
To triumph dashed each Connacht clan.
And fleet as deer the Normans ran
Thro' Corrsliabh Pass and Ardrahan;
And later times saw deeds as brave,
And glory guards Clanricard's grave,
Sing, Oh! they died their land to save
At Aughrim's slopes and Shannon's wave.
And if, when all a vigil keep,
The West's asleep! the West's asleep!
Alas! and well may Erin weep
That Connacht lies in s1umber deep.
But, hark! a voice like thunder spake,
The West's awake! the West's awake!
Sing, Oh! hurrah! let England quake,
We'll watch till death for Erin's sake.
Alfie a cara "the wests awake" as far as the genocide in Palestine is concerned the west is in a fucking coma..
ReplyDeleteHigh Arka if you think like this
ReplyDeleteWhatever stance you take on the unfortunate difficulties happening right now in Gaza, we must be reasonable and allow Israel to defend itself.
There is no hope for mankind if you think for one second all Israel is doing is defending themselves. The very formation of the modern state of Israel was born on the back of state sponsered terrorism (maybe you over looked the Stern Gang when reading history).
As bookworm said...
Massacre, the deliberate destruction of infrastructure, the prevention and destruction of sustainable industry in farming and fishing, the deprivation of electricity and water, attacking hospitals and schools, detaining pregnant women to their deaths on the border is genocide whether you believe or accept it or not.
Probably goes a long way in explaining why the Palestinian people believe they have no choice but to defend their human rights. Hopefully one day you'll get your head around that.
Unlike either yourself High Arka or myself, We aren't going hungry, we have medical supplies, schools to get educated in. But ordinary Palestinians are being denied basic human rights.
My Gaza is a rough concentration camp. I see the people out last night taking photos with their IPhone 5s, watching the "celebrations" on their HDTV with their cable. Shooting the AKs in their designer jeans, members only jackets, new Nike trainers.
ReplyDeleteThose "victory" celebrations yesterday reminded me of the "victory" celebrations outside Connolly HOuse in September 1994. But I'll give the Palestinians some credit, they are tough people who don't back down from a fight.If Gerry Adams was their leader they'd have surrendered at the first sighting of an Israeli jet.
@Ryan.
ReplyDeleteI have to say you are spot on.
Palestine was split by the British and the French in 1948, they gave the Jews there own state (before anyone comes down on me like a ton of bricks, I have nothing against Jewish people, nor for that matter, I have nothing against anyone's nationality)
Every country which Britain has had Military intervention, "NOTHING GOOD CAME FROM IT", We just have to look at our own country, I Read today that more courts in the U.K. are to have special closed hearings of secret evidence were the accused is not allowed to hear it. welcome to the united states of Europe (U.K) flouting E.U. laws. Big Brother Is WATCHING , it's the N.W.O. Stand up and be counted people.
Ryan;
ReplyDeleteCable TV? Yeah and this is run off the 24/7 electricity I suppose. It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.
Designer clothes and trainers? 4 out of 5 Gazans depend on humanitarian aid; clothes, medicine as basic as paracetamol and food as basic as wheat and long life milk. This is FACT.
The deliberate destruction and collapse of the Gazan economy, blocked crossings and of course the blockade prevent anything from being made or brought in or out of the Strip. But you are telling me that such companies as Nike and Apple are getting through? Let me know how they're doing this as I have a friend out there who is simply DYING for a pair of Jimmy Choo shoes.
Everyone in the world knows this - even pro-Zionists. How come you don't??
The Israeli state extending the settlements. It is impossible to believe it has any intention of treating Palestinians justly. While it refuses to recognise the right of Palestine to exist it should be treated as an international pariah.
ReplyDeleteAnthony.
ReplyDeleteThey are inviting more rockets to be fired into there illegally held land.
They want to try and wipe out the true owners of that occupied land, "The Palestinian People", and to crown it all, The U.S.A. has stated that it fears Syria will use chemical weapons on its own people, They said that about Iraq! and all those so called WMD, which were found to be NON EXISTENT.
Makes you wonder what is actually going on with these so called super powers, next we will hear that reports of chemical weapons have been used by serian military, Then another gulf war!!!!, The russians learned there lesson when the invaded Afghanistan, there soldiers were skinned alive, they withdrew from that country, yet under the guise of the U.N, the west decided to invade it as well, don't they ever learn, No Country in history has ever invaded Afghanistan and won, we just have to look at the state of it and Iraq, prisoners murdered/tortured/humiliated.
Palestine is Palestine, and that is the Real name for it, NOT ISRAEL.
Israel will act like the bastard state it is as long as America bankrolls it,like a spoilt brat it wants everything it sees regardless who is the rightful owner, and like a spoilt brat a good hard smack is long overdue,its way past time that the UN grew a set of BALLS and implemented those sanctions..
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, the U.S. owns the U.N. Decades of votes on the Arab genocide have resulted in all, or almost all, of the other member states voting against just U.S. and Israel. Casting votes on nonbinding resolutions will change nothing.
ReplyDeleteGeorge W. Bush said it best to the rest of the world: "Bring it on."
Belfast Bookworm,
ReplyDeleteThe ratio of deaths is something around 115:1.
Which shows the asymmetrical nature of applied violence. Sheer vindictive, punitive overkill.
If Tel Aviv were to be blown to kingdom come what justification could be proffered for the innocents who would most certainly be killed were such an outcome to come about?
I don’t doubt that a genocidal intent exists within the minds of a substantial number of Israelis, among them key policy people. I think it is inevitable when people start to think they are ‘the chosen people’. It reminds me of the special race of Aryan supermen. When people are allowed to run with that notion then eliminationist ideology is not that far behind. Ironically one of those at the fore in outlining eliminationist ideology is the Zionist writer Daniel Goldhagen in his book Germany’s Willing Executioners.
Yet, I don’t think they will gas the Palestinians. It would be too self defeating given the range of exterminationist methods available. That does not mean they would not apply physical genocide in another form. Jacques Derrida pointed to the holocaust of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Marty,
If Ireland was the most anti-Semitic country in the world I would see it as a bad thing. If it were to be the most anti-Zionist country in the world (I don’t believe it is) that would be a good thing. If Israel were to be wiped off the face of the earth we face the same question I raised with Belfast Bookworm: what justification would there be for the mass slaughter of so many innocents? I agree with Alfie when he says I certainly don't think Israel
should now be "wiped off the face of the map". Like him I don't agree with the ‘suicide bombings of the past’ or the rocket attacks against civilians. I happen to think bombing civilians is wrong. I don’t think it is right to do it in Birmingham, Dublin/Monaghan, Baghdad, Twin Towers, Tel Aviv or Gaza. To start selecting one location and argue for the civilians there to be killed is to say the people there have no rights. This is one of the big critiques I have of the Israeli state – it behaves exactly like that, obliterating the rights of Palestinian civilians.
If Palestinians shoot Israeli troops I see that just as I would guerrillas in the Warsaw Ghetto attacking SS troops.
Alfie,
A one-state solution in which the Palestinians and Israelis could live together in a secular state would be the ideal, but it is a utopian fantasy. The most pragmatic resolution to the conflict is the foundation of
a viable Palestinian state on the 1967 borders alongside Israel. All of the Israeli settlements must be removed for this to happen.
While I don’t like this I think it is potentially the only outcome that might prove sustainable. Against that we see the Israelis working to ensure that the two state solution is not possible with its building of more settlements. For a solution to be remotely possible Israel must recognise in real terms, not verbal ones, Palestine’s right to exist.
Ted,
ReplyDeleteI am fascinated by the response of Irish republicanism, the Irish people's
nationalist movement, with Zionism, the Jewish people's nationalist
movement.
I think you answered that well yourself. Irish republicanism being the underdog is hardly going to identify with a brutal repressive state violating the nation state of a much weaker opponent.
it's not immoral to be the stronger force in a dispute
It immoral to use that strength to repress out of a vindictive, punitive desire.
Alfie
ReplyDeleteIf I had been a Jew in the 1930s and 40s, I would probably have been a Zionist, but I'm not sure that that makes Zionism legitimate, for the Arabs of Palestine would have to pay for the sins of European anti-Semitism.
This shows how circumstantial and ethical logic collide.
Belfast Bookworm,
I think Ted has a point about identifying with the underdog. The sense of right and wrong that is ascribed to republicans seemed to go down the plughole a long time ago. The SF partitionists still march for Palestine but as we both agree they would march to bomb Gaza tomorrow if the leadership asked them to.
I think Alfie is right about the immorality of the counter attacks. Any action that targets civilians is in my view immoral, whether they live in Gaza, Tel Aviv or Whitecross.
Massacre, the deliberate destruction of infrastructure, the prevention and destruction of sustainable industry in farming and fishing, the deprivation of electricity and water, attacking hospitals and schools, detaining
pregnant women to their deaths on the border is genocide
Hard to disagree with that.
High Arka,
ReplyDeleteAnd Kentucky Baptists are a bad lot – even jailing people for a year if they don’t buy into the god myth!!
Ted,
I recall Boney M singing a song in the 70s called By The Rivers of Babylon.
You certainly concede the moral ambiguity at the heart of Zionism even though many of us go further and see no ambiguity there, finding it outright immoral. As for compromise, the Palestinians don’t seem to have a lot to give.
There is no one view of anything on this blog. I run the blog but other than what I write it does not reflect my views or the views of anyone else here. There is some serious disagreement amongst opponents of Israel on the state of affairs in the Middle East. What seems to unite that school of thought is abhorrence towards the sheer brutal racism of the Israeli state.
It is not just people in Ireland who liken the Israeli perspective to Nazis. Is the following Israeli colonel ‘perverse and unhinged’? According to John Simpson of the BBC the colonel said to him during the invasion of Lebanon: ‘we are like Nazis here. Sharon is a war criminal and we are helping him do his dirty work. Its genocide. All of us are guilty.’
Given Israel's military dominance, the fact that there has been no Palestinian genocide is conclusive evidence that Israel does not desire a Palestinian genocide
This might tell us more about global restraints than Israeli desires. Was Sabra and Shatilla any less an act of genocide than Babi Yar?
On a related point why did the Israeli public not demand Ariel Sharon imprisoned for crimes against humanity in the wake of the khan Commissions’ report? They elected him prime minister.
High Arka,
Norman Finklestein also caused serious problems for Daniel Goldhagen’s book Germany’s Willing executioners. I really enjoyed that book but it is not without flaws as Finklestein drew attention to. He has been a fine dismantler of myth and bias over the years.
Alfie
Minorities should be respected, but not pandered to.
If someone can come up with a better prescription it will be good to ponder.
This Christmas, Let's Remember, Jesus Was A Palestinian
ReplyDelete