Thursday, July 12, 2012

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New Human Rights: Sausages & Beer for Bigots


Below is a transcriptof an interview carried out by Seamus McKee with Nigel Dodds. It featured on BBC Radio Ulster's Evening Extra on Monday 9th July 2012. Nigel Dodds, a member of a party that has a history of viweing human rights like a disease, has suddenly become reconciled to the concept when it is a question of sausages and beer as much needed energy for feet that badly want to trample over ... well, the rights of others.

Host Seamus McKee interviews Nigel Dodds of the Democratic Unionist Party concerning the Parades Commission's recent decision concerning the time frame imposed on the Orange Order feeder parade in Ardoyne.

SM: It's one of the most contentious Orange Order parades here – the return leg of the North Belfast Twelfth parade passing the Ardoyne shop fronts.

This year the Parades Commission has ruled the parade must be completed by four in the afternoon. The decision's been critcised by the DUP and Sinn Féin. And this afternoon Nigel Dodds led a DUP delegation to meet the Assistant Chief Constable, Will Kerr.

SM: Good evening.

ND: Good evening, Seamus.

SM: First of all, can I ask you about the protests underway to Adele Avenue. We understand that Loyalists gathered there say they'll protest every evening over the Parades Commission ruling. Do you support their protests?

ND: Well, I think people have the right to protest as long as they do so in a peaceful way; you know, people are very angry and they want to make it clear.

Just as in the past Republicans have come out and had white line protests I think Loyalists are saying: well let us, on this occasion, vent our anger and frustration in this way and from what I understand it's entirely peaceful and therefore I don't see any problem with it.

SM: What is the problem?

ND: The meeting today was a meeting not just a DUP delegation but also The North and West Parades Forum and I have to say the meeting was joined by Matt Baggot, the Chief Constable, so that's an indication of the seriousness with which everyone regards the situation.

The problem exists in the fact that the Parades Commission have made a bizarre ruling which means that the return leg of the Ardoyne feeder parade, not the main parade... these lodges are actually going to link up with the main parade that go to the field at Barnett's Desmesne. It has to be back by four o'clock. They will not arrive at Barnett's Desmesne until until one, half past one and the proceeding don't begin until quarter to three. The return leg doesn't begin until four or four fifteen. They cannot be back by four o'clock.

It's an illogical, bizarre and crazy decision. And it means that effectively, the Commission is saying to those Orangemen from the Ligoniel lodges, you're not allowed to have your Twelfth of July.

SM: Well, you'd have thought that the Parades Commission would have taken everything into account. It says it has in it's determination in this parade...

ND: It is a bizarre situation where you're saying to people here actually engaging in a Twelfth of July parade for the purposes of going to Barnett's Desmesne and taking part in the proceedings at the field and then returning home; that you have to be home earlier than when the proceedings actually all finish at the field...

SM: Are you saying there's no way the organisers of this parade could accommodate that four o'clock time frame?

ND: No, no, because the proceedings don't end until nearly four o'clock.

SM: Well could they not be brought forward?

ND: Well, first of all there's a two and three hour parade from ten o'clock at Clifton Street with the districts joining in to the field at Barnett's Desmesne. After that length of a walk people have to get food and drink - these are basic human rights which I think shouldn't be denied – shouldn't be denied to anyone.

They have to then have their religious service. They have to engage in the proceedings there and then return home. How you can you can do all of that and be back up past Ardoyne at four o'clock is an impossibility.

SM: Well if that's the case were you discussing with the police today what happens in the likely event, as you would suggest, of the parade coming back after four?

ND: We talked to the police and we made it clear to them that there have been good constructive talks, which they were aware of as well, which had been happening between the Loyalist side and Republicans and that have been good and constructive - everybody acknowledged that. I believe the seeds were there for moving forward in the months after the Twelfth.

But unfortunately this decision has effectively rewarded violence because what has happened now is that the GARC, the Greater Ardoyne Community Collective as it's called, they have been allowed to come out and have their parade at half five. They're the people who instigated the violence over the last couple of years although it greatly diminished last year.

SM: Well, of course, they – we can't stand over that and they would dispute that...

ND: But that is the facts. That is the facts. That is the facts.

SM: Well they would dispute the claim. However....

ND: The police don't dispute that, Seamus....

SM: Alright.

ND: I mean let's deal with the facts. Let's not be wishy-washy about it. And the fact is that as a result of rewarding the violence, just after Judges this week made it very clear that rioters will be put away for a year or more, we have this bizarre decision which is impractical and illogical and can't actually work in practice being imposed whilst at the same time a new Republican parade, which has no antecedents or history, has been added to the Twelfth of July proceedings - something which has left the police in an impossibly difficult position.

SM: All right. Nigel Dodds, thank you.

38 comments :

marty said...

"Deal with facts,lets not be wishy washy about it" I agree with Nigelboy lets not be "wishy washy" Nigelboy is a raving ranting bigot sin é

John McGirr said...

Marty,

'I agree with Nigelboy lets not be "wishy washy" Nigelboy is a raving ranting bigot sin é'

The Orange Order is by nature a bigoted organization. There is no such thing as an Orangeman who is not a bigot.

marty said...

Bunch of guys walk into a greengrocers in Belfast,knocking pensioners out of their way and upturning fruit and veg on their way to the counter,the spokesman says to the checkout assistant in an aggressive voice"I want 200 clementines,150 tangerines,225 mandarins,170 satsumas and 300 of your best Sevilles,I,ll be back in ten minutes and it had better be ready or else"!as soon as they leave the frightened assistant turns to her boss and says "What the hell was that?" "The orange order "he replied...

AM said...

From Sandy Boyer:

Martin Corey, like Marian Price, is in prison on the basisof secret evidence neither he nor his lawyers have been allowed to see.

On Monday July 9th, a Northern Ireland judgeordered Martin Corey released on unconditional bail because he had no chance torefute the “evidence” against him.

Owen Paterson, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, refused to implement the judge’s order to release Martin Corey.

On Wednesday July 11th the Court of Appealsstayed Martin Corey’s release. They scheduled an appeal hearing for September28th. It could be weeks or months after that before there is a decision.

Marian Price and Martin Corey’s cases are nextricably intertwined. They could both be imprisoned for life, based solely on secretevidence. Any victory for one of them will inevitably benefit the other.

More immediately, the Martin Corey decision means that evenif the courts order Marian Price released, she is likely to remain in prisonfor weeks if not months with incalculable damage to her heath.

itsjustmacker said...

Re-Sandy Bowers piece about Martin Corey and Marian Price.

The secret evidence is from MI5, The same law applies to Mainland UK. It was passed this year, Courts in Mainland UK can now have anyone tried by a Diplock court for security reasons, any evidence against that person or persons can be witheld for security reasons alone, and, based on the security evidence, "You Are found guilty. Its big brother saying, You will do as we say. Draconian laws are all coming back. It goes to prove who is running the countries. MI5/MI6. the sad thing about it is, If a Special Branch officer wanted to give evidence on your behalf, MI5/MI6 makes sure it cant happen. Patterson is being told what to do By MI5/MI6, and the old ex RUC Special branch who are sifting through all Republican Actions during the long war with HET, they are not interested in Bringing British soldiers/ex RUC/ex RUC Special Branch/UVF/UDA/UFF, etc to court over Murders and bombings. Its all of the above against us now. What is in store for PSF?, ive said it before and i will say it again, the witch hunt has started.

Boyne Rover said...

There is no such thing as an Orangeman who is not a bigot ???? Says John
Same as there is no such thing as a Catholic Priest who is not a paedophile ????

larry hughes said...

boyne rover
ouch!!!

itsjustmacker said...

Boyne Rover.

That's why they like wearing frocks, they love being defrocked by young boys!

Fionnuala Perry said...

Boynerover,
Bigotry is an essential requirement of the orange order, whether it be covert or overt,in the case of St Annes Cathedral it was very much the overt on display.
How can you seriously argue, that an organisation that disallows people based purely on religion is not bigoted?
Your comment in relation to Catholic priests was more A typical than remotely intellectual.

John McGirr said...

Boyne Rover,

‘There is no such thing as an Orangeman who is not a bigot ???? Says John
Same as there is no such thing as a Catholic Priest who is not a paedophile ????’

Not remotely similar. The Orange Order does not allow Catholics, relatives of Catholics, or people who associate with Catholics to be members. The Orange Order is worse in this respect to the KKK.

The Catholic Church does not advocate paedophilia. Those who engage in it do so AGAINST the teachings of the Catholic Church. You can be a Priest, (indeed should be a priest) and not be a paedophile, but you CANNOT be an Orange Man with out at the least being complicit in anti-Catholicism.

larry hughes said...

The PSNI and Orange Order seem intent on starting things again. Maybe they just don't have anything else to live for? Or maybe they miss the plentiful overpaid jobs? Pitty about them!

AM said...

John,

being anti-Catholoic hardly makes a person a bigot. You hate Protestantism but would probably claim you are not a bigot. The world is a bit more complex. I think as an institution it is very bigoted but I don't believe everybody in it is a bigot.

itsjustmacker said...

Boyne Rover.

This is Orange Bigotry at its highest level. Loyalist Orange Order Bands from The shankill Rd Stopped at Saint Patricks in Donelgal St and marched in circles outside the Chapel for 15 to 20 minutes playing anti catholic tunes, The person Who filmed it was approached by Loyalist bandmen. watch this, I could not believe it myself. An absolute Disgrace, Oh, By the way the guy who filmed it is called MC GEE!!!, just as well they didn't ask him his name.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18829447

John McGirr said...

AM,
'I think as an institution it is very bigoted but I don't believe everybody in it is a bigot.'

Well, shall we just agree that they are, at the very least, institutionally intolerant of Catholics?

Should anyone dissent on an individual basis, they would best not let it be known to their 'worshipful brethren' or they would likely get ejected.

I imagine there are probably some negro-friendly members of the KKK, but I wouldn't recommend their joining it.

BTW, it is not so much their anti-Catholicism that annoys me, it is that they go out of their way to offend Catholics. A lot of Protestant groups are anti-Catholic etc but most don't feel the need to tramp over the Ardoyne and anywhere else they can offend the most, (save insofar as they have dual membership).

AM said...

John,

I think they are ‘institutionally intolerant of Catholics.’ In a sense that is like the Catholic Church being institutionally intolerant of gays.

They do dissent and often are sanctioned for it. Although I don’t see how you could have a problem with that given that you label dissent from Catholic teaching as heresy.

I know religious types can hate each other so I tend to take that as a given but like yourself it is their supremacism that annoys me. If they wanted to walk past my house simply out of religious observation I would not batt an eyelid but they can’t make me abide by their religious opinion.

I guess there are non believers marching past Ardoyne just for the sheer hell of lording it over the residents.

larry hughes said...

Well personally I don't think people's tradition should be messed with. The Orange Order have a wonderful tradition of marching from church services back to burned down Orange Halls. Long may it continue!

John McGirr said...

AM,

I have never viewed the Orange Order as a religious organization. It never really occurred to me that it was, but maybe I have only ever seen there hatred. You seem to be aware of another side to them that has escaped me.

AM said...

Not really John. I find them institutionally a bigoted organisation that uses religion to prosecute hate. But I know there are people in it who are decent and far from your typical hater of all things Catholic. Some of them have a real religious passion but don't express it with hate. They speak about Christ pretty much as you do and think he is a god. They won't be found marching through Ardoyne. Then you have the others who love it only because it does march through Ardoyne.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mackers,
If you were a decent person why would you associate yourself with them.
I had the misfortune to encounter them at three different locations yesterday and I can only say 'orange culture' must now be a euphemism for raw sectarian hatred brcause that was the only thing on display.

AM said...

Nuala,

many of them ask the same question of the IRA. People have a variety of motives for joining organisations. Every organisation has decent people. Who would recommend that anyone join the prison service? Yet time out of number we have met decent screws. Even during the blanket they were to be found. I try not to lose sight of people. Organisations can depersonalise and dehumanise people and I find it beneficial to look beyond that. But I don't think we should make the mistake of reading the organisation off from some of the people we know within it. Decent people in an organisation don't make it decent.

Ryan said...

Larry Hughes-"The PSNI and Orange Order seem intent on starting things again. Maybe they just don't have anything else to live for? Or maybe they miss the plentiful overpaid jobs? Pitty about them!"
I just could not agree more. I think state forces are actually getting a little bored of the peace process. I give the entire peace farce 3 more years. The boredom, mixed with the state repression along with the recession is undoubtedly going to collapse this farce sooner rather than later.

John McGirr said...

They might be a shower of bigots, but I would take my hat off to them on this issue:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18827235

larry hughes said...

Ryan
would not have agreed a while ago. But orange/PSNI tinkering and SF uselessness combined with the existense of hostlity between the communities I saw on tv this last few days; I recon your 3 yrs could be generous.
A Nazareen or a town centre took out of it now and the huns will think its christmas all over again.

AM said...

John,

they are even bigoted on this as well. There was an interesting debate on this topic on Prime Time the other evening between David Quinn and Monnine Griffith. Worth watching.

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mackers,
I don't agree with that. I don't see any difference between them and the Klu Klux Klan, are we asked to believe there are decent people in that organisation?
For the most they are underpinned and driven by hatred.
Maybe there are few of the less intelligant who have joined up to blow a whistle or bang a drum, but they are in the minority and decidely out of step.

AM said...

Nuala,

as I said I know some of them. Some are highly intelligent and have been in rows with the organisation over the years. They certainly don't see things as I do but that's the heart of intellectual life. They are quite relaxed with criticisms of them and the Order. Not all of them are of the Dawson Bailie mentality

Fionnuala Perry said...

Mackers,
I knew some of them to, half the street I grew up in seemingly belonged to some branch of the orange order.
They tolerated us until it was time to wear the sash and then they were barely recognisable.
No doubt over tea and biscuits they could facilitate the odd fenian rant, but it doesn't change them.
Never heard any of their intellects speaking out or condemning the random and at times unspeakably vicious murder of innocent Catholics.
I have yet to hear them condemn their slip-up outside St Annes Cathedral,, maybe such incidents are too petty to strike at the heart of their intellectual life.
Too busy spinning a load of lies and deceit around their yearly festivity of hatred.

John McGirr said...

AM,

'There was an interesting debate on this topic on Prime Time the other evening between David Quinn and Monnine Griffith. Worth watching.'

Just watched it. David Quinn was as weak and ineffectual as he normally is. The fact that he supports 'gay partnerships' and 'gay adoption' means that he has lost before the argument is begun.

He did land one good blow though, when he reminded her of how much they value 'difference' just to be told when it comes to parenting it is of no consequence.

I found it very depressing viewing altogether. The old adage about the best when corrupted becomes the worst springs to mind. It certainly applies to the moral collapse of the Irish nation. No wonder they have no interest in freedom when they are so quick to follow the latest slavish moral degradation.

John McGirr said...

Fionnuala, AM,

'I don't see any difference between them and the Klu Klux Klan, are we asked to believe there are decent people in that organisation?'

I second that question.

Would you, AM seriously contend that there are decent people in the KKK? (Although I understand that the KKK is now much more inclusive than the Orange Order is.)

AM said...

John,

I am sure there are decent people in the KKK. Don't ask me to name any as I don't know any. I have never met an organisation yet that didn't have some decent people in it. I have met many decent screws over the years even though they belong to a profession where you start at the bottom and wrok your way down.

To presume that the 'goodness' or 'badness' of an institution somehow transfers into the personalities of each member would be a mistake. That would mean every organisation with a good cause would be made up of good people. How we have learned that is not so to our cost.

People join organisations for a range of reasons. As we have seen only too sharply with the Provos it is not always for ideological causes. Some go along to get along. And ultimately what we also found with the Provos is that many people would rather be wrong than isolated.

Nuala,

I grew up seeing all that myself. Took more beatings as a kid because of that mentality. I have a strong dislike for the Orange Order but don’t let that rule out different experiences that I have had of individual members. I think Brian Kennaway is one example of a senior Orange Order figure who is not some raving bigot, is intellectually very capable, has taken many principled positions against the Order, even wrote a book deeply critical of it.

AM said...

John,

While I don’t agree with his argument I thought he acquitted himself well. His argument is lost anyway whatever his view on gay partnerships. The tides are shifting in favour of a human rights rather than a religious view of the matter. I think he tried to couch his argument in terms of rights. And I think he gave his opponents something to think about.

At the end of the day nobody is being forced into marriage. There is a difference of opinion on the matter and society will settle it for us. Can’t see any other way to approach the matter. If society does not decide who shall? And if you don’t want to marry a man you don’t have to. And if you do you can.


‘I found it very depressing viewing altogether.’

I found it uplifting. It was a good exchange. We need exposed to more debates like that. Could you imagine the reception it would have provoked had Iris Robinson been arguing the case rather than David Quinn?

The Irish people do want freedom. They choose what it is they want to be free from and won’t be denied that choice by others making the choice for them.

John McGirr said...

AM,

The trouble with David Quinn is he believes in de facto marriage for homosexuals, provided they are not referred to as ‘marriages’. He has already conceded the argument.

The real issue here is that there have been (at least) two understandings of what marriage is for many years, that of an indissoluble life-long union between a man and a woman, and that of the State that permits divorce and other evils. What will really impact is if the State should try to impose its version on the Church.

Provided it doesn’t do that, which it will never succeed in, then, what the State does now, is of little consequence. It is only natural that a neo-pagan people have neo-pagan morals, which will be expressed and acclaimed, much to the detriment of Irish Society.

I totally disagree with your assertion that the Irish people want freedom. If they did, they would demand Britain leave, and would organize a Thirty Two County Republic. Anything less is bullsh*t!

larry hughes said...

'The Irish people do want freedom. They choose what it is they want to be free from and won’t be denied that choice by others making the choice for them.'

Freedom from a disgraceful RC church and from understandable but non-the-less futile republican violence maybe? And if support for embarassing turncoat SF is the best tool for the job, then so be it. Might that be a reasonable evaluation?

AM said...

Naked sectarian hatred with Orange banner to boot

AM said...

This is the same bigot who has been trying to con people into thinking the earth was created 6000 years ago. Here he is trying to sell a different brand of snake oil around the Orange dance outside a Catholic church

AM said...

From Helen McClafferty:

Has It Really Taken Over 200 Years for the Orange Order to Realise They Have Been “Used Throughout History” by Damian Herron, NI Chair, Free Gerry McGeough Campaign.

Bigoted Orange Boots want to tramp through the streets of our capital city Dublin? Will they acknowledge their role in creating division and conflict? Do they want to “move forward together” while Republican prisoners are being brutalised in Maghaberry prison? Has it really taken over 200 years for the Orange Order to realise they have been “used throughout history” by others?

The Orange Order has not been “used throughout history” as Drew Nelson states. It has allowed itself to be used as the cesspit of bigotry and sectarianism. Their history is one of anti-Catholic bigoted sectarianism and triumphalism. How many members of the Orange Order were involved in sectarian murders?

He did not acknowledge the brutality of the RUC and British soldiers against the people of the Garvaghy Road who were battered senseless so that Orange Boots could be forced through a Nationalist area. He did not acknowledge the deaths as a result of Orange Order intransigence at the height of the Drumcree dispute.

Apparently they wish to move forward with the Irish Government and are “here today to show their support for that commitment”. What commitment have the Orange Order made to the Irish Government? Have they committed to reroute their triumphalist parades away from areas where they are not wanted? Will they commit to recognising those who suffered at the hands of Orange Order members who joined the UDR?

We are not “moving forward” while Gerry McGeough lies in Maghaberry prison. If the Orange Order are genuine about “moving forward” let them make a commitment to seek justice for Gerry McGeough and his family. Let them commit to seeking justice for all those Irish people who have suffered as a result of their bigoted sectarianism. Let them call on the British Government to implement in full the Weston Park Accord as agreed in 2001 and let them call for the immediate release of Gerry McGeough.

It is the Orange bigots and Unionist politicians who need to take “giant steps” and prove their desire to move forward towards a genuine peace. Gerry McGeough’s incarceration is a direct result of the Orange State that still exists within the occupied counties of Ireland. While Gerry McGeough lies in prison, we are not “moving forward”. Let’s not forget the others who are imprisoned in Ireland without trial in 2012 because of British and Unionist oppression towards our people.

AM said...

Neanderthal McCausland calls for creation of new ban

AM said...

John,

A state that does not permit divorce is in fact maintaining forced marriages. People not priests will decide who they marry and to whom they shall remain married. The non married are going to tell the married what to do in their marriage! LOL.

‘The trouble with David Quinn is he believes in de facto marriage for homosexuals, provided they are not referred to as 'marriages'. He has already conceded the argument.’

I doubt if he believes in it at all. He knows the way society is moving and if Catholicism is to maintain any influence has to move with it to some extent.

‘What will really impact is if the State should try to impose its version on the Church.’

And what would the Church do if as you say it is filled with rogues and ne’r do wells?

‘what the State does now, is of little consequence.’

I think you have that back to front. What the Church does now is of little consequence. Funny auld geezers in pointy hats and frocks are hardly going to be taken seriously.

‘It is only natural that a neo-pagan people have neo-pagan morals, which will be expressed and acclaimed, much to the detriment of Irish Society.’

Paganism was the source of many ideas for Christianity. They had the zombie trick too.

An opinion that can be vented and if people want to share it they should be free. For those who wish to dissent from it, the same freedom applies.

‘I totally disagree with your assertion that the Irish people want freedom.’

They clearly want freedom from the type of ideas expressed by you, the freedom to divorce, freedom from republican violence, freedom to use contraception inter alia.

‘If they did, they would demand Britain leave, and would organize a Thirty Two County Republic. Anything less is bullsh*t!’

And the freedom not to listen to bibleshit, or to you telling them what and only what they can be free from.