Try Banning It

The Vatican should be abolished altogether as it would take 100 years or more to get rid of the rat infestation of immoral bishops and priests ...The Irish Church should look after its own "alternative catholic people's church" and let Rome burn - Ms Terry Healy, letter to Irish Independent

The latest revelations about the Catholic Church in Ireland may well be the last straw for many who have bothered listening as of late to anything the institute teaches. There is just no end to it. There will be no end to it. After the many reports on clerical child abuse that have emerged, which last summer saw an unprecedented intervention by the Taoiseach Edna Kenny, and the subsequent closing down of the Irish embassy, there is little if any room left for doubt. From the head honcho down the Irish Catholic Church poses such a threat to the safety of children that it must be unfalteringly brought under democratic secular scrutiny. It is thoroughly incapable of regulating itself.  As Professor Marie Parker-Jenkins has last year argued:

waiting for a genuine apology from the Catholic Church or compliance with recommendations from inquiries into child abuse is pointless. This institution has had decades to put its house in order and the Cloyne Report demonstrates its continued reluctance to do so … the church's leadership is morally bankrupt.

Reinforcing this perspective Maurice Hayes claimed ‘the church cannot be trusted to heal itself.’ This is not an assault on the Church from without. Even from within the institution Bishop Gerard Clifford of Armagh has already stated his view that the Church cannot reform alone, that it needs help: ‘the hope is now that together the Church and State can address this issue.’

But this would not suffice. Rather than the help of the State, what is needed is the full force of the State brought to bear on the Church operation in Ireland. Only a fool would place their trust in the Church after decades of vacillation, prevarication, foot-dragging, and countless failures to honour commitments.

A hierarchical, highly organised, veritable rape cartel operating in accordance with its own impenetrable laws, the case can be made that the Catholic Church should, like any similar conspiracy, be broken up and its unctuous leaders put on trial in open court on charges of reckless endangerment or perverting the course of justice. Clerical membership of the Catholic Church should be proscribed precisely because the institution functions as a rape cartel, making the problem systemic and not something that can be laid at the door of the proverbial bad apples. Any other body so tightly managed, so immersed in organised crime, would be brought to book. In fact we know that were any other body to engage in such widespread abuse it would have its legal status queried. The Church should be no different.

Prosecutions for membership of an illegal assembly should be restricted to the functionaries in the Rome directed body. Were such measures in place, anyone choosing to remain a staff member of the Church once it is deemed a proscribed organisation would be placed on the sex offenders register. Not because they have been guilty of sex abuse but because they belong to a rape cartel that enables sexual abuse. Crack the institution and then mop up the malingerers on an individual basis. The transparency of all legal proceedings would ensure that the witnesses for and against could not be silenced by something akin to canon law.

There should be no prohibition on religious worship or Catholicism per se. People should be free to practice their faith and believe what they want: Christ or Icke, Liverpool or Chelsea, McIlroy or Harrington. It is not for the state to decide what private club citizens follow or what opinions they hold. Church property should not be confiscated as punishment but where necessary to make up the deficit in what is owed as compensation to Vatican victims. The churches should be made available to communities of Catholics who wish to worship in them. Masses, where desired, should be said by priests who do not belong to an outlawed body.

It would be much better if the flock were to have a genuine crisis of conscience, dismantle the Church from within and rebuild if they choose.  In the view of Sinead O’Connor there could be a:

people's alternative catholic church, welcoming all current Catholic clergy who feel - as we do - that Christ is being murdered by liars … As I see it, the only way this current leadership of the Catholic Church can save the reputation of Catholicism is to walk out of the Vatican now and give us over the keys so we can run the church ourselves. This can only continue if we allow it. It should be either they walk away or we do. One way or the other we cannot leave Christ in their care for another moment.

While that will certainly send unquestioning Catholics rushing off for their holy petrol with which to burn the witch - as they could once do with papal authority when they had the power - thinking Catholics will see in it one logical terminus at the end of the route the Church has chosen. They will dissent but shall understand how such a viewpoint comes to exist. The bigot will just rant and opt for the J & J scapegoat - journalists and Jews: blame Darragh MacIntyre for hounding Cardinal Brady, praise George Pell for putting the god killing Semites in their place.

Yet O’Connor is right. Failing any bottom up dismantling the institution should be declared an illegal assembly on the grounds that it was a child rape enabler working in collusion with a foreign entity that conspired to break Irish law. In that one decisive act a new course for Irish society will have been charted. The good ship Children First shall set sail with no priests on board.

The Irish Catholic Church has little grounds for complaint given that it has operated outside the civil law for aeons. It is now time to regularise that status.

114 comments:

  1. The Catholic Church teaches purity. This is rejected by the world which advocates impurity. Those on the PQ who also advocate impurity should realize that it is only insofar as false priests agree with them, and act impurely that there is a problem.

    Those who champion impurity should carefully weigh up their portion of guilt in what has gone on, whether they be liberal priests or those on the PQ who think they are innocent, while fully backing the depraved lifestyles of a post Christian people.

    The Catholic Church should be judged on what it teaches, and on those who follow what it teaches, not on its renegades, who have abandoned its doctrine and betrayed its moral precepts, however great in number they become. Rather than ban it, would it not be better to demand that its clerics should practice what they preach? But spare us the lunatic ramblings of Sinead O’Connor. She is more a symptom of a diseased post Catholic era, than a model of behaviour for those aspiring to lead a Christian life.

    Meanwhile don’t be too lenient on those guilty. Let the homosexual predators be exposed and punished with the full rigour of the law. If the law is not tough enough, then increase its penalties. I would be happy to see all sodomite clergy boiled in oil. Those who abuse children should be flayed and then boiled.

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  2. John
    i believe you have missed your calling. i'm certain there's a tv show awaiting you somewhere south of the mason/dixon line. you should be a millionaire a dozen times over. you're wasted on the internet.

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  3. Many churches are still full! People can't let go of what they have been brainwashed into believing.

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  4. Dave,

    I never see them from the inside. But from what I gather those that are full are few and far between. Although I think I read yesterday that about 80% of the country describes itself as religious.

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  5. "... that about 80% of the country describes itself as religious.", describes is correct , sure a fair percentage of Stormont MLAs describe themselves as republican, heh heh.

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  6. I said here on TPQ years ago,bring back the penal code ,I wanna watch those fuckers run, and I want to point them out just like they did to reps in the 70,s and 80,s

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  7. Marty,

    one of your comments got deleted by mistake. Can you resend?

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  8. Rolf Harris was in Tesco,s, a little old lady asked "are you that bloke from the 70,s who done two little boys ?""no" he replied "that was Garry Glitter"...I went on a blind date last week,as soon as I told her that I worked in the fire dept she was all over me. we have been together since,she is not going to be happy now though,those f##kers in B&Q have moved me to the lighting dept..

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  9. He was on TV a few minutes ago singing it at Buck House

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  10. AM i just loved the letter from Terry Healy. It is wonderful to see individuals speaking out rising up... Global rape cartel - how true...


    @ John McGirr I do declare AM was right... it seems your indoctrination was so thorough you are unable to apply critical thinking & consistently disappear into the morass of religious blather & harsh judgements & then to show us i suppose. how outrageous abuse of minors is you concede to toss in nonsense like flaying/boil in oil for the perps.

    Yeah well it's 2012 baby & I would prefer incarceration for them including the dismantling of the Vatican. You know that old story - when i went into prison my anus hole was the size of a dime when i came out it was the size of a ...
    I also know screws turn a blind eye to the attacks on child perps & that is the only commendable action of screws come to think of it...

    Where you fail abjectly is that you cannot bear to deal with your own religious construct dependency & willing enmeshment with a thoroughly corrupt construct. You seek solace & blockade realities by losing yourself in wafting on about the beauty of Latin Mass etc ad nauesum.

    Did it ever once occur to you why christian scriptures were initially lost in Latin? So the headhonchos could keep the people subjugated. The teachings of Jesus are radical & if the huddled masses got ahold of them they would rise up & ditch the Vatican constructs...


    RE Sinead O'Connor - has more integrity than most. No denying she is different but there is a strong, ethical woman there. As to her mental health status - there is many a person whose mental health was questionable but their integrity was not... You to me are a person i would deem has major dependency issues & retrograde thinking/thought processes - so hardly the pic of mental health urself are ye now John McGirr.

    How about u get off your withered self righteous buttocks & fight for the next generation of kids so they are safe. That would defo be more spiritual than burbles of the beauty of the Latin Mass. And whilst i am at this rant i also think the OO construct should be eliminated also. Both Vatican & OO are evil, delusional twisted constructs.

    If a well educated atheist can consistently write and speak out about the corruption but all you can do is talk nonsense & detract from the seriousness of a rape cartel dressed up as God - something is freakin wrong with u John McGirr

    Disband the Vatican It's had it's bloody day! And to think our people suffered and died for a freakin Rape Cartel... it is all so twisted tragic..

    And to conclude:
    I think Sinead is right in there is a need for those who want to remain Catholic in their Christian belief but want no part of the current vile construct to have an alternative construct created. Personally I dont understand why so many find it hard to walk away from Catholicism but i accept that it is real... I suspect it is because many of us Irish were so thoroughly indoctrinated that our culture ID is tied with the Vatican. Well it ain't but the disengaging process is beyond many Catholics as they equate spirituality with rituals & a priest/bishop etc It taps into the human crave for safety does this...

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  11. ‘@ John McGirr I do declare AM was right...’

    Is that an Ex Cathedra statement? I note that you do nothing in the body of your rant to prove this, but rather beg the question throughout.

    ‘it seems your indoctrination was so thorough you are unable to apply critical thinking’

    Or maybe I have not achieved the hatred of Catholicism that you have. There is a basic distinction between the Truth of the Catholic Church and the behaviour of its members, both clerical and lay.

    ‘I also know screws turn a blind eye to the attacks on child perps & that is the only commendable action of screws come to think of it...’

    On the one hand you want people gaoled for sexual abuse, yet you want them to suffer sexual abuse; and yet you condemn me for making ‘harsh judgements’!

    ‘Where you fail abjectly is that you cannot bear to deal with your own religious construct dependency & willing enmeshment with a thoroughly corrupt construct.’

    Is your real motive defending abused children or is it just Catholic bashing?

    ‘You seek solace & blockade realities by losing yourself in wafting on about the beauty of Latin Mass etc ad nauesum.’

    Have I done this? I certainly have no memory of it. Although I could, but don’t really think this is the place for it.

    ‘Did it ever once occur to you why christian scriptures were initially lost in Latin?’

    Is your concern child abuse or the use of Latin? Aren’t you going to tell us how Bibles were chained up so that they couldn’t be read?

    ‘So the headhonchos could keep the people subjugated. The teachings of Jesus are radical & if the huddled masses got ahold of them they would rise up & ditch the Vatican constructs...’

    Have you been reading Jack Chick tracts again? I would urge you rather to read the Sacred Scriptures and the Imitation of Christ. You will get a totally different view of the One True Faith therein.

    ‘You to me are a person i would deem has major dependency issues & retrograde thinking/thought processes –‘

    Does it bother you that you don’t control my thought? You are beginning to sound like a devotee of Chairman Mao. Wouldn’t you just love it if you could send all those evil Catholics to be re-educated?

    ‘so hardly the pic of mental health urself are ye now John McGirr.’

    How much do I owe you for your psychoanalysis? I shall resist the urge to comment on your mental health.

    ‘If a well educated atheist can consistently write and speak out about the corruption but all you can do is talk nonsense & detract from the seriousness of a rape cartel dressed up as God - something is freakin wrong with u John McGirr’

    Have you ever considered addressing the arguments or are you just happy to attack me because your real aim is the destruction of the Catholic Church? There is no one more bitter than a ‘collapsed’ Catholic.

    Disband the Vatican It's had it's bloody day! And to think our people suffered and died for a freakin Rape Cartel... it is all so twisted tragic..

    You could well learn from the old adage, quod nimis probat, nihil probat: "what proves too much, proves nothing".

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  12. @ John Mc Girr.

    John, do you have a pitch on Royal Avenue, or, do you just walk about with a placard around your neck. The facts are there, but you are blinded by the light, you cant see the truth of those corrupt degenerate child abusing garbage. My late brother ended up like you, it drove him crazy, he was always right and everyone else was wrong, and the catholic church did nothing to help his insanity , they attributed towards it. I had to post this after reading your reply to St Mary Hedgehog. You need serious help John.

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  13. John a cara you seriously need to get into something like sheep shaggin.or indoor hang gliding,this religon shit has affected what is obviously a good mind if it was not confined to the narrow parameters of defending the indefensible, let it go John its dying a cara ,fucked as a bishop would say, there is a bigger world out there where a good mind can run free ,and I have a spare pair of wellies if ya wanna come dandering over the hills with me,and not a priest in sight!

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  14. itsjustmacker,
    ‘The facts are there, but you are blinded by the light, you cant see the truth of those corrupt degenerate child abusing garbage.’

    What truth can I not see? I know that many have betrayed their positions. The common denominator in it all is warped, fallen humanity, not priesthood!

    Do you think that the betrayal of some in the Republican movement means that the Republican cause should be condemned and we should all be loyalists?

    If I am mad for accepting the Catholic Faith, then I am in good company, including those great leaders of 1916 who died believing what I do, pro fide et patria.

    marty,
    Thanks for the kind offer.

    As Bishop Sheen said;
    "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

    If the Catholic Church was what you say it is, I would be right with you. But things are rarely what the mob thinks, whether it was Palm Sunday or Good Friday.

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  15. John,

    the Church is what the Church does.

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  16. I just put out my union jack for the queens jubilee.I wasnt sure if it would offend the neighbours ,so I wrote Allah and God are fuckers,just to be sure

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  17. Fuckin hell John they nail your boss to a cross and you call it good, the bastards stitched up the republican movement and they called that day good as well,hate to see what a bad day in thon world looks like..

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  18. Didnt our old queen look good last night?but he shouls have sung "candle in the wind"

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  19. AM,
    'the Church is what the Church does.'

    So why do you not identify it with the 99.9% that is not engaged in such things?

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  20. I cant believe how much disruption the royal family has caused in London with the jubilee celebrations.at least the last time they caused this many traffic jams they had the decency to do it in Paris.....the royal efforts culminated in a four minute stream of red hot fireworks..and that was prince Philip having a piss!

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  21. Didnt our old queen look good last night?but he shouls have sung "candle in the wind"

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  22. John,

    for the same reason that I am not engaging with golf clubs even though they don't do a lot that is wrong. Not my gig.

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  23. AM,
    So if 0.1% of golfers disobeyed all the rules and did wrong, would you call for the closing down of the Global Golfing authorities, (assuming such existed)?

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  24. Marty,

    'I just put out my union jack for the queens jubilee.I wasnt sure if it would offend the neighbours ,so I wrote Allah and God are fuckers,just to be sure'

    'Votail Sinn Fein' would have been a good one.

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  25. John,

    if the golf club management at global level allowed the institution's staffers to rape children by continuously trafficking rapist golfers from country to country, covered it up, told us that golf club law was more important than civil law, intimidated victims into silence - and that the golfing institution could not be wrong because its leader had been ordained as infallible by the fairy that lived at the bottom of the green on the 18th hole, yes I think a good argument could be made to shut the operation down.

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  26. AM,
    There is a really worrying tendency at work in this issue and others on here. It is your willingness to say that a person is guilty without due process, merely because you do not share their beliefs.

    There are those who limit this to Marian Price or Martin Corey and there are others who would love to just open up a Concentration Camp and fill it with 'dissidents', or in your case with priests.

    Most people would rather find, isolate and punish those who have committed real crimes, not invent them because you disagree with their views.

    The Catholic Church has been attacked by the Romans, the Barbarian hordes of Huns and other assortments, by the Freemasons, the Protestants, Napolean, the Nazis, the Communists and now by a sorry band of atheists who think that if only they can kick it hard enough while it is down they will succeed.

    The obituary of the Catholic Church has been written umpteen times by every tin-pot dictator, representing every ism under the sun.

    It has not gone away, it is here for good. When you and I are both dead it will be here. Talk of banning it is just silly. But if it give you illusions of grandeur, go for it!

    PS,
    Somehow I forgot the Jews, oh, and the homos!

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  27. Anthony,

    With respect, your argument here is fallacious. We do not abandon state-run social services even though they have seriously failed children in the past, nor do we ban socialist parties because of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. As a leftist and an advocate of state intervention in the economy, I think we should try to do better in the future rather than abandoning the whole institution of the state. Ordinary Catholics must feel the same way about the Church.

    John,

    I think Anthony's central point is that, throughout history, perhaps a majority of bishops in the Catholic Church have covered up the sexual abuse of minors.

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  28. LMFAO Robert the fuckers around here would not have noticed anything unusual they would have thought that qsf had just taken the next step to being more British than you , and followed suit.

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  29. Anthony we all know such things will never happen at the golf club,they are far to busy being sectarian bigots to indulge in childish activities,well thats according to Bell and the" model" Anderson

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  30. Well here I am,sitting on the pavement with my pork pies,sandwiches and beers,flying my union jack cheering at the top of my voice with british pride as the procession goes past.....f##kin love muslim funerals...

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  31. Alfie,

    'nor do we ban socialist parties because of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.'

    your point would have more validity if I was advocating banning Catholicism. I argued the opposite.


    'As a leftist and an advocate of state intervention in the economy, I think we should try to do better in the future rather than abandoning the whole institution of the state.'

    Agreed, for the very reason imagine a society without a state.
    But don't confuse a body of opinion with a state.

    At the end of WW2 the Waffen SS was proclaimed a criminal body unlike the Wehrmacht. Not every member of the Waffen SS was a criminal. But it had a criminal function. The Catholic Church in Ireland has a criminal function. Gang busting legislation exists for the purpose of breaking up gangs.

    I think it is important to differentiate between the institution and the belief system. The Church should be treated the same as any other private body in society.

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  32. John,

    ‘It is your willingness to say that a person is guilty without due process, merely because you do not share their beliefs.’
    Where?

    The Church is a guilty institution.

    I disagree with the concept of concentration camps. I would not advocate putting anybody in prison for what they believe. I would protest against priests being interned or imprisoned for their Catholic beliefs. But if we accept the notion of an illegal assembly (no society that I am aware of rejects the concept) then it is a matter of judging what constitutes such an assembly. In my view the Church would fit the bill. I might be wrong in my opinion and I am willing to abide by the majority view on it. You think gay people should be banned or jailed or burned merely for being gay.

    ‘Most people would rather find, isolate and punish those who have committed real crimes, not invent them because you disagree with their views.’

    Agreed. That is the problem with criminalising homosexuality.

    As for my ‘illusions of grandeur’ don’t deny me that small pleasure. It is all I have left!

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  33. Robert,

    great to see you are still about. I thought you had been banned!

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  34. Anthony,

    Thanks, I'm always encouraged by your welcome. I've been exercised by a demanding domestic life!

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  35. AM

    Isn't it atheism rather than religion that caused the problem in your article?

    Although there isn't that much of a difference between Mormons and atheists, I guess.

    I suppose it is a case of in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!

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  36. @ JohnMcGirr you did get abit of a vitrolic serve from me & took it on the chin (& as expected - pls insert my manic cackle here - there was no shifting of the entrenched beliefs on you) I don't however think you be mad per se or certifiable lolz (who knows in realville others may beg to differ on that) However there is entrenched pattern in your persistence of refusing to see the grim realities imo.

    I hate it when people describe a person with a mental illness in this instance Sinead OConnor who is bipolar as a raving nut. FFS i worked in psych years ago and let me tell you this - half the staff were as mad as maggots John. One place i worked the head shrink suicided (at home thankfully) It didnt surprise me as once i had the misfortune to have lunch with this person in the staffroom and the rambles out the shrinks mouth were tragic A total fuckup i thought and drunk on self importance. Worse ths shrink thought they were impressing me - the little nobody staff member who taught art to the so called loonies and took them all out for outings. Always remember the sickest people are on the outside usualiy not in the hospitals!! Check the vatican head honchos on that one too. Be wary of mocking the immense suffering of those living with mental illness John. No one is immune to it and it could be your status one day or anyones for that matter. No one ever asked to be mentally ill cept to get off a murder rap or stuff like that.

    That analogy Anthony gave re the golf club etc is a goodie & that link was quite good to re the mormon losing faith/belief. Quite sad really. We all seek buffers from cruel realities but beware the ones that cushion yourself from grappling with & facing into ghastly realities...

    Popular buffers are religion and drugs tho one could say they are one and the same. Some go to a temple or church that has specific doctrines for a topup fix/hang with likeminded religous types whereas another group of people just score crystal meth or smack or slam down grog & hang out on the streets. Comphrendo?

    No i do not enjoy or revel in violence of any kind as have lived hard, grew up with violence & was seriously violent in my youth (on the street for years) However in the prison systems child perps will often get done to them what the child victims had done to them. Many immates have young kids on the outside and many immates have been been abused as minors themselves. It will not heal or release the victims so there is no joy in it but i just think now thoae bastards will know the terror like no other. The invasion of your body soul spirit Terror pure terror/denigration.

    You know what i feel when i hear of or read of a child perp being done over I feel nothing. Simply blank. Terror begets terror is all it is.

    I think u should go hang out with Marty and have a laugh and a drink & just let the love of latin and religious devotion take a backburner. U know Jesus drank wine and socialised with everyone...

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  37. @ itsjustmackers That is really sad re your brother. He is free now and at peace from all this earthly torment stuff. My Dad got really ramped up on Catholicism like John McGirr but fortunately my Dad could concede it was all abit much. He asked me some years before he died should he put this absolutely enormous wooden crucifix /Rosary he got in Lourdes on the bedroom wall. I said Dad everyone will think u r a total religious nutter if u do. So he did'nt hang it on the wall lolol

    NB Look where there is sorrows and pain and at times mental health issues there is OFTEN over compensation that can occur with religiosity to deal with it... But like you said it can frequently ramp up the anguish rather than cure it Also tends to isolate the person from others as the unbearable religious tunnel vision rants repels the many.

    I grew up with crucifixes, pics of sacred heart, everywhere in the house & Rosary beads/scapulas/holy pics cards and of course the Feast Days calendar and all them freakin saints A clutter like nothing else.. O and a pic of the Pope used to be somewhere in there too. Then there was the priests visiting (Irish priests and nuns were the holiest of holy of course lol). Mass on Sunday Stations of the Cross during the week... more torment... lol The worst bit was saying the Rosary with Dads beady eyes watching his rebellious daughter. I would get a swift clip round the earhole if i didn’t comply. Novenas spat out with utter resentment from me mouth.

    I have a celtic cross on my loungeroom wall which i note an athiest friend studiously avoids commenting on Sometimes just for fun i leave my big tome of a bible on the dining table to freak people out.
    I myself can admit there was a time in me life (my late teens) where i drove everyone round the twist with my rants on God – i had stumbled upon the non denom Charismatic Movement era!! . In desperation to escape another God rant when i was visiting me parents - my Mother a devout Catholic exclaimed: "I think i liked you better when you were shooting up heroin" LOLOL bet she went to Confession over that slipup I larfed me guts out over it decades later because i could see what a pain in the arse i musta been.

    To conclude we will not certify/ schedule John McGirr for inpatient treatment in the 'looney bin' but we will persist in challenging some of his religious blather After all he is our Pope of Pensive Quill where everyone is allowed to have a voice. hehe Gotta keep the faith in The Great I AM sans religion even if the other AM here challenges it ahhaa Anthony certainly makes one critque hard what one believes and why... Slan

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  38. Robert,

    it is how the good men fall!!

    John,

    he gave religion up and her religious conditioning made it difficult to accept. Atheism was ok in that situation.

    Mormonism is a con, no different from any other religion. But look at how many follow it. Joe Smith, a crook, just hoodwinked them in front of their eyes and still they believed.

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  39. Euro 2012 is set to begin soon.the Polish,Lithuanian.and Romanian national teams are due to fly out of Belfast next week..

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  40. Anthony "and on it goes " 237 accusations of sexual abuse and rising so far this year,HOLY FUCK thats the A AND B teams red carded looks like the reserves ie., the legion of Mary and John are gonna get the call up.

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  41. SMH,

    I really enjoyed your last post. Even when you are castigating me you never fail to amuse.

    ‘I hate it when people describe a person with a mental illness in this instance Sinead OConnor who is bipolar as a raving nut.’

    I didn’t know she had a diagnosed mental illness or I would chose my words more carefully. I was just going on her behaviour, in particular her ‘ordination’ then her ‘coming out’ and going back in again.

    ‘U know Jesus drank wine and socialised with everyone...’

    I use that line sometimes.

    AM.

    “‘It is your willingness to say that a person is guilty without due process, merely because you do not share their beliefs.’”
    ‘Where?’

    You have consistently said that the entire hierarchy of the Catholic Church is guilty.

    ‘I might be wrong in my opinion and I am willing to abide by the majority view on it.’

    I loathe democracy, but will often abide by majority views on things that are not important.

    ‘You think gay people should be banned or jailed or burned merely for being gay.’

    I think homosexuality harms society. A wise society would be one that would discourage it.

    ‘your point would have more validity if I was advocating banning Catholicism. I argued the opposite.’

    But the Catholic Church was founded by Christ on the Bishop of Rome. If you take away the hierarchy, there is no Church.

    'and on it goes'

    Quite honestly I think that this is just a case of people ‘cashing in’.

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  42. John "just a case of people cashing in" Pssssst cmere wanna buy a genuine relic"?kind remind you of why those men wore frocks ,it was so they could hang half a million relics inside ,just like the con man you see selling watches on the street,get outa here John there all tail end gunners and we havent heard the half of their activities I,d bet

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  43. John,

    ‘The Catholic Church teaches purity.’

    What is pure about murdering children as a punishment against gays?

    More accurately, the Church tries to impose its opinion of what is pure.

    The PQ, which includes yourself, merely have opinions. Many of them would see ‘impurity’ in the Church cover up of rape or its targeting of gay people.

    ‘the depraved lifestyles of a post Christian people.’

    What is a more depraved act – Brady swearing a raped child to secrecy or a gay person having sex?

    ‘The Catholic Church should be judged on what it teaches’

    Do as we say not as we do.

    ‘But spare us the lunatic ramblings of Sinead O'Connor.’

    She sounds saner than you yet I do not think you a lunatic.
    ‘I would be happy to see all sodomite clergy boiled in oil. Those who abuse children should be flayed and then boiled.’

    None should be subject to that no matter how tempting at times it might seem.

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  44. Marty,
    '..get outa here John there all tail end gunners and we havent heard the half of their activities I,d bet'

    Finally the penny is dropping. Yes, the offenders are predatory homosexuals.

    There are two elements to be fought, the homosexual element and the preying on children.

    Identifying the problem is the first step to finding a cure.

    PS,
    It is interesting that the vast majority were 'ordained' in the 1968 'Rite of Ordination', thus they are no more priests than Sinead O'Connor or your mail man.

    ReplyDelete
  45. John the pre 68 ones like brit motorbikes at this stage in life will be all noise and no performance,this is not a new phenomena and I suspect you know that,churches and I mean all of them are and have been preying on peoples fears and superstitions for much to long now,Kincora, Nazareth lodge the magdalene sisters,Smith etc, its a magnet to these creeps and when they are treated with reverence by the state and its people then its open season for those scumbags, now through the bravery of a few these maggots and their facilitators are now being showed up for the criminal conspiracy they really are.

    ReplyDelete
  46. @ John Mc Girr

    What truth can I not see? I know that many have betrayed their positions. The common denominator in it all is warped, fallen humanity, not priesthood!.

    Okay John, You state you know many have betrayed their Positions, then at the end of the paragraph you stae , "Not Priesthood" ????.

    John The dirty bastards of PRIESTS , Bishops , Cardinals , Popes, are all into it, But now you decide to Blame Fallen Humanity for all the sick child molesting abuse within the Roman Catholic Church by its shirt lifting sicko so holy holy priests and higher echelons.

    I remember when i was a kid, playing football in the street, when the priest walked down the st and you didn't stop playing and said, "Hello Father", he would give you a slap across the ear, well i just got pissed of with it and told him to GO PLUS FUCK HIMSELF IN A BUCKET" and if he lifted his hand to me ever again, I would crack his fucking jaw, He never bothered me anymore.

    John, take your blinkers of please , if you do, then you will be saved , I am not asking to stop going to mass, Im just asking you to Look at the facts, Just Google "Catholic Church,Child Abuse" , or , Religion, child abuse , that way you will get to SEE the globality of child abuse throughout all religions/Sects , etc.

    John ,You wont see until you take your blinkers of, It killed my oldest brother, he went insane with it, was put on anti depressants and just got worse and worse.
    May your god bless and protect you.

    Our God should be here in the distant future when i am dead as dead can be, He will come in a ball of fire, Fucking space ship.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Marty,
    The ones who have taken over are not Catholics. Real Catholics now are very few in number. I expect Anthony sees the inside of a chapel more than I do. I would never go near any of them now. I think I would trust most atheists more than I do them. But it will be re-built, just like the Republican movement will be. People can betray each movement, but they cannot destroy them. With God and St Patrick on side, victory is certain. Amen.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Saint?MaryHedgehog,

    Terry Healy got it spot on. And about Sinead O’Connor too.

    I believe you are right to suggest to John or anyone else that it is much more productive to protect children than to protect the Church. Children are important, the Church isn’t. Society needs its children not its churches.

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  49. John a cara I have no doubts that you are a sound decent person,with knowledge and brains to burn.I agree with you about republicanism ,as Connolly said " we shall rise again"Eirígí, ,have "faith" in yourself and your brother man and let the money/power grabbing pervs go fuck each other,pref in a deep hole ,which quite a few here would gladly dig.

    ReplyDelete
  50. itsjustmacker,


    “What truth can I not see? I know that many have betrayed their positions. The common denominator in it all is warped, fallen humanity, not priesthood!.”

    ‘Okay John, You state you know many have betrayed their Positions, then at the end of the paragraph you stae , "Not Priesthood" ????.’

    Are you saying that there is no abuse outside of the Catholic priesthood? If not, then what is wrong with saying that the common denominator is humanity?

    ‘John The dirty bastards of PRIESTS , Bishops , Cardinals , Popes, are all into it, But now you decide to Blame Fallen Humanity for all the sick child molesting abuse within the Roman Catholic Church by its shirt lifting sicko so holy holy priests and higher echelons.’

    There is Jewish abuse, Moslem abuse, protestant abuse, atheist abuse, FSM abuse, taxi driver abuse, school teacher abuse etc. To deny this suggests that you are the one with blinkers.

    ‘I remember when i was a kid, playing football in the street, when the priest walked down the st and you didn't stop playing and said, "Hello Father", he would give you a slap across the ear, well i just got pissed of with it and told him to GO PLUS FUCK HIMSELF IN A BUCKET" and if he lifted his hand to me ever again, I would crack his fucking jaw, He never bothered me anymore.’

    Now we are getting to your psychological hatred of priests. It is because of ill-mannered abusive louts like you that society has gone the way it has. I teach my children to respect those in society who are entitled to it, especially holy priests.

    ‘John, take your blinkers of please , if you do, then you will be saved ,’

    Saved?

    ‘I am not asking to stop going to mass, Im just asking you to Look at the facts, Just Google "Catholic Church,Child Abuse" , or , Religion, child abuse , that way you will get to SEE the globality of child abuse throughout all religions/Sects , etc.

    Just ‘googled’ it. One thing I found was an article by Andrew Brown in the Guardian, saying;

    “the safeguards against paedophilia in the priesthood are now among the tightest in the world. …objectively your child is less likely to be abused by a Catholic priest in the west today than by the members of almost any other profession.”

    ‘John ,You wont see until you take your blinkers of, It killed my oldest brother, he went insane with it, was put on anti depressants and just got worse and worse.’

    I have a brother who is an atheist. He is so full of hatred that he won’t speak to me so I guess we all have our stories. Sorry to hear about your brother though.

    ‘May your god bless and protect you.’

    There is only one God, the One who is the Founder of the Catholic Church and its First Priest.

    ‘Our God should be here in the distant future when i am dead as dead can be, He will come in a ball of fire, Fucking space ship.’

    And the meaning of this is WHAT?

    ReplyDelete
  51. John

    ‘There is a basic distinction between the Truth of the Catholic Church and the behaviour of its members, both clerical and lay.’

    Same with any organisation. That hardly makes what the Church says true. Plenty of groups proclaim their myths to be true.

    I don’t believe SMH is into Catholic bashing in the way that you would be into gay bashing. I think she is into hitting out against serious injustice an she sees the Church as an unjust institution.

    I think I would rather be chained up than read the bible. I would oppose the bible being suppressed or censored. I don’t take to book burners. We seen enough of the mullahs wanting to burn the Satanic Verses and its author on the same pyre.

    Thought control - surely this is the hallmark of all totalitarian institutions. They get angry because they can’t control thought. Take the example of the nun who the Vatican seek to censor because of the thought it can’t control in her book.

    ‘You could well learn from the old adage, quod nimis probat, nihil probat: "what proves too much, proves nothing".

    Religion comes to mind, miracles and all that.

    Marty,

    You are right about a great mind. I think John has a very good mind but demonstrates that a good mind does not always deliver good judgements

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  52. Should have been good for you! Food for thought eh?!!

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  53. The following paragraphs were written by Sam Miller - a prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman.

    "Why would newspapers carry on a vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States, namely the Catholic Church?"

    Do you know - the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

    The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students..

    The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today.

    But the press is vindictive and trying to totally denigrate in every way the Catholic Church in this country. They have blamed the disease of pedophilia on the Catholic Church, which is as irresponsible as blaming adultery on the institution of marriage.

    Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church, 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed.

    Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.

    A study of American priests showed that most are happy in the priesthood and find it even better than they had expected, and that most, if given the choice, would choose to be priests again in face of all this obnoxious PR the church has been receiving.

    The Catholic Church is bleeding from self-inflicted wounds. The agony that Catholics have felt and suffered is not necessarily the fault of the Church. You have been hurt by a very small number of wayward priests.

    Walk with your shoulders high and you head higher. Be a proud member of the most important non-governmental agency in the United States .

    Then remember what Jeremiah said: 'Stand by the roads, and look and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is and walk in it, and find rest for your souls'.

    Be proud to speak up for your faith with pride and reverence and learn what your Church does for all other religions.

    ReplyDelete
  54. JohnMcG, itsjustmackers etc

    RE itsjustmackers
    ‘I remember when i was a kid, playing football in the street, when the priest walked down the st and you didn't stop playing and said, "Hello Father", he would give you a slap across the ear, well i just got pissed of with it and told him to GO PLUS FUCK HIMSELF IN A BUCKET" and if he lifted his hand to me ever again, I would crack his fucking jaw, He never bothered me anymore.’

    JohnMcGirr reply:
    Now we are getting to your psychological hatred of priests. It is because of ill-mannered abusive louts like you that society has gone the way it has. I teach my children to respect those in society who are entitled to it, especially holy priests.
    ___________________________________
    @JohnMcGirr i retract my kindness to you - you are sick to respond in the way u did. In fact u r nothing but a nasty, slimy bastard to write crap like that. Go drown in your religious blather & dont forget to bow down to Babylon Rome as they work their way thru the kids (fresh meat for Rome is all kids are to them)It is not about you - it IS about the abuse of minors within Catholicism

    It is ALL about the rights of kids.
    Catholicism is nothing more than a money grabbing SADO MASOCHISTIC perverted RELIGION deluding the many. NB Go stick a fork in your arse & turn yourself over John McGirr because you are thoroughly Vatican indoctrinated cooked.

    @itsjustmackers
    Both priests and nuns were violent, perverted & us kids were fodder. NB I am thrilled u stood up to that priest. The anger comes on me for all of us who suffered IN ALL FORMS OF ABUSE.

    I wish i had smashed some nuns heads in as a kid & a particular priest but all i ended up doing before leaving school forever was write Fuck you on the blackboard before the nun came in. At least i got to see a hysterical response of outrage.

    Aside from their hatred of us expressed in violence & denigration on us there were nuns who sexually abused us kids too. Yes folks good old saintly nuns my arse they were. You will find that many female victims now adults feel deep shame re this & dont want their names/faces to it. And of course on top of that horror there was the priest moving in on us... which was a whole other facet...

    I say Fuck the Vatican with me Name and face supplied. Fuck you to Hell where you belong...

    I lost a friend to addiction (overdose) who was so damaged traumatised by what we had gone through. Wish i had been able to comfort & help her but i couldnt even help meself. There was no help and nowhere to turn... It is a particularly profoundly deep damage that is hard to articulate but it never leaves you EVER. There has got to be a heaven cos so many of us have been to Hell

    I am utterly convinced one of the portals to Hell is called Catholicism. Now i gotta stay away from this topic for a time & get jiggy to the good life i got now. Sometimes it pulls up too much sorrows & anger. I feel at times like i could smash a thousand statues of the Virgin Mary with one hand lolol

    Lest we forget... for the next generation keep at it - exposing the crimes. They ARE crimes against humanity. Timeout Time for me and thank you Anthony for all you do in consistently addressing this...

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anthony lol yeah i just saw your comment yes i loved making that video because i thought of all the young Aboriginal i knew who died young from oppression & imploded self hate I made it for them - every single one of them live inside my heart.
    That song can apply to the Vatican totally too. Muthaf.ker (Vatican) it is ON (war we are warring against u lolol)

    ReplyDelete
  56. The verdict of a ‘gay’ Radio presenter,

    "I don’t say this happily … because, as you may know, I happen to be gay myself. I’m openly gay here on the radio in Los Angeles, and have been for many years."

    "But I have to tell you that, you know, even if you are gay, two and two is still four and there’s this proverbial 3,000 elephant sitting in the room that no one wants to talk about. This is not a pedophile issue, although the media called it a pedophile issue, because they don’t want to insult the gay community. They don’t want to be politically incorrect."

    "But what you have here are not pedophiles. You have predatory gay men – and there are some of us, believe me, I don’t happen to be one of them but there are some and we should all admit they’re there. And these predatory gay men found their way into the Catholic priesthood in inordinately large numbers … and these gay men have gone after young males. And I think it’s disgraceful, and I think the media needs to address this. The gay community needs to address this."

    (Al Rantel CNN Talkback Live, aired Friday, June 14th, 2002).

    ReplyDelete
  57. How do you get a nun pregnant?...Dress her up as an alter boy....did you hear about the priest who died of viagra overdose,,,they could,nt close the casket...

    ReplyDelete
  58. How do you get a nun pregnant?...Dress her up as an alter boy....did you hear about the priest who died of viagra overdose,,,they could,nt close the casket...

    ReplyDelete
  59. I see little evidence that most on here are even interested in the truth where the Catholic religion is concerned.

    If there was an interest for the truth, and for the kids, then you would be honest and admit that 99.9% of all child abuse happens outside of the Catholic Church.

    But let’s not let the facts get in the way of pure un-alloyed Catholic hate.

    I recommend the book ‘Double Standard: Abuse Scandals and the Attack on the Catholic Church” by David Pierre.

    If you come on to a public forum with such vitriolic attacks on the Catholic Religion, you should at least have the courage to read a book that gives clear evidence that you are only condemning 'Catholic abuse', which is miniscule in comparison to the deluge happening outside of the Church.

    Personally I oppose abuse wherever it occurs. In fact I oppose it more if it carried out by people who have betrayed their calling to the priesthood.

    I have no intention of answering abusive comments because it leads nowhere.

    ReplyDelete
  60. @ John Mc Girr

    Now we are getting to your psychological hatred of priests. It is because of ill-mannered abusive louts like you that society has gone the way it has. I teach my children to respect those in society who are entitled to it, especially holy priests.

    That's a bit bitchy John, must have stirred an angry nerve in you.

    What gives you the right to call me "ill-mannered abusive louts like you that society has gone the way it has. You know nothing about my upbringing , but i will tell you this for nothing , Just because of your silly little bitchy comment, I think they made an error when you were born John , they through the wrong part away!.
    You must be a very sad , sick person to even write anything like that against me , and that makes you a good catholic christian? , well you can stuff it up your arse and im sure you will enjoy it.

    Bye bye Pope Mc Girr.

    SMH.

    That's a great post and thanks for the support , I wont be replying to any of Pope Mc Girr's post again. That is one very sad Bitchy person. We were taught that Gays were the afterbirth!, but i never believed that!

    ReplyDelete
  61. Kids in a religious education class,wee Mary asks "Do angels fly?"Wee Larry shouts out"do they fuck?" "one question at a time "says the teacher..

    ReplyDelete
  62. "I think they made an error when you were born John , they through the wrong part away!.
    You must be a very sad , sick person to even write anything like that against me , and that makes you a good catholic christian? , well you can stuff it up your arse and im sure you will enjoy it."

    No comment. (Except I think you meant threw and not through).

    ReplyDelete
  63. 'and the catholic church did nothing to help his insanity , they attributed towards it... You need serious help John.

    No comment. (Except I think you mean 'contributed' and not 'attributed'.

    ReplyDelete
  64. 'We were taught that Gays were the afterbirth!, but i never believed that!'

    I feel I can comment on that, as not directed against me.!

    Were you really taught that? Sounds a little sick to me.

    ReplyDelete
  65. 'John
    i believe you have missed your calling. i'm certain there's a tv show awaiting you somewhere south of the mason/dixon line. you should be a millionaire a dozen times over. you're wasted on the internet.'

    Speak to me, Larry. There are some nasty people on here.

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  66. SMH
    there shud be a god...and he/it/she should wrap arms around you..i wish i could.

    wee marty...
    just when i thought life was total junk...u appear and have me sore laghin..AGAIN

    ReplyDelete
  67. History of the condom

    In 1272, the Arabic Islamic Muslims invented the condom, using a goat's lower intestine. In 1873, the British somewhat refined the idea by taking the intestine out of the goat first.

    This joke would have been the type of thing Theo Van Gogh would have loved. He was murdered by a religious fascist because of his forthright views on free speech.

    ReplyDelete
  68. SMH
    thers an old man who had a malicious accusation made against him by a slimeball neighbour in Lurgan..he's in jail.. it will probably kill the poor soul. Isn't it ironic how priests are not only permitted and facilitated to do violent sexual acts rather than slung into jail...sick.

    Priests and dissidents...round em up sling em in....yeeha!!

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  69. the only true religion is Ca-aholic..ism

    ReplyDelete
  70. The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students..

    that's a lot of sore arses..huh?

    ReplyDelete
  71. John
    i saw those posts for the first time today. That got a bit heated i think. I'm usually the wind up merchant here..i feel im being edged out lol...God bless you John..my son.

    ReplyDelete
  72. John,

    ‘The common denominator in it all is warped, fallen humanity, not priesthood!’

    Those who join the priest hoods have fallen quite a bit! Oliver Twist inhabited a better class of people!

    ‘Do you think that the betrayal of some in the Republican movement means that the Republican cause should be condemned and we should all be loyalists?’

    This sort of works against you.

    Nor should Catholics become Protestants. They should believe in their god and simply bypass the Church. Just as republicans who believe in the Republic did with SF.

    ‘If I am mad for accepting the Catholic Faith, then I am in good company, including those great leaders of 1916 who died believing what I do.’

    John, if I thought the 1916 leaders were like you I would break the connection! Roger Casement was hardly like you which I am sure you are glad of. Nor was Connolly. Moreover, I could hardly imagine either marching with the fascists of Spain.

    ReplyDelete
  73. AM,
    'John, if I thought the 1916 leaders were like you I would break the connection! Roger Casement was hardly like you which I am sure you are glad of. Nor was Connolly.'

    I'm not claiming they were like me, other than we share the same Faith. Can you name any of the leaders of 1916 who died outside of the Catholic Faith? Can you name one who was an atheist?

    You continue to use British black propaganda to sully the name of Roger Casement. He was a great man who died reconciled with the Catholic Faith.

    BTW this thread is about you wanting to ban the religion that all the leaders of 1916 died in. I have given evidence from a Jew and a homosexual to show how ridiculous that is.

    But who cares about evidence when you have an anti-Catholic agenda to pursue? Why bother about 99.9% of abuse if you can pursue the 0.1%.

    A simple google search will tell you that the main culprits are "teachers, coaches, substitute teachers, bus drivers and teacher's aides" who account for 69% of all abuse.The abuse by priests is so minuscule that it doesn't even reach any of the listings.

    But, sure, let's not worry about facts when you have an anti-Catholic agenda to pursue.

    ReplyDelete
  74. John
    'A simple google search will tell you that the main culprits are "teachers, coaches, substitute teachers, bus drivers and teacher's aides" who account for 69% of all abuse.The abuse by priests is so minuscule that it doesn't even reach any of the listings'.

    does this include TESOL teachers? If so i'm already nervous and excited to be going to Japan in a year or so...shuks..bring on on quick!!

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anthony if I had my way they would be gone overnight,they are a bit like those American G.I,s who were here during the war ,Over paid,Over sexed, Over here,! if they really believe in that" nearer my god to thee" shit then why not cut out the middle crap and go straight over the nearest cliff?

    ReplyDelete
  76. AM,

    ‘Priests will have disappeared from Ireland in a few decades’

    That long? I was hoping the post Vatican II hippy, gay crowd would be gone long before that.

    ReplyDelete
  77. John,

    Nuala is right. He is not in jail because of ssi religious beliefs.

    Bear in mind that a Catholic judge also took delight in dismissing his pardon application. Gerry said:

    'Over twenty-years ago, Seamus Treacy, the Diplock Judge involved in this Judicial Review decision, sat beside me in a German court where, in a special observer role capacity, he briefly represented a fellow Irish Republican during our trial there.

    At the time, German defense lawyers greatly admired Treacy whom they perceived to be a de...dicated young Catholic Barrister struggling on behalf of the politically oppressed against the corrupt British Diplock judicial system and its military machine in the six-counties.

    Time really does change everything!'

    ReplyDelete
  78. Thats "Dick Tracey " now Anthony..

    ReplyDelete
  79. Saint?MaryHedgehog,


    ‘the unbearable religious tunnel vision rants repels the many.’
    So true.

    I too grew up in a religious household where holy pictures and the like were on display and we were expected to go to Sunday show; same old guff each week. My mother was behind it not my father. Though funny enough he got a funeral mass and she refused to have one. My children escaped it. Never once did they attend mass. The youngest asked me a few days ago what heaven was like. He told me somebody in school told him it is where you go from the graveyard. Having explained to him it was all rubbish I told him of the need to respect this life. It is not a practice run for another one.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Thats for sure Anthony it aint no dress rehearsal..

    ReplyDelete
  81. John,

    ‘I was just going on her behaviour, in particular her 'ordination' then her 'coming out' and going back in again.’

    Any worse than any other ordination? And she would make a much better priest than all those who were up to no good and allowed to continue serving.

    ‘You have consistently said that the entire hierarchy of the Catholic Church is guilty.’

    Goes with command and control responsibility John. I think it is guilty otherwise I would not support the calls for them to be tried in the International Criminal Court

    ‘I loathe democracy.’

    I would never have guessed! Which can be interpreted as you loathe people. What would you prefer – theocracy?

    'You think gay people should be banned or jailed or burned merely for being
    gay.'

    ‘I think homosexuality harms society.’

    Just as many think the Church harms society. A wise society might therefore discourage it.

    ‘If you take away the hierarchy, there is no Church.’

    No. There is no hierarchy. Following the example of Jesus and telling the Pharisees where to go would hardly lead to the end of the Church.

    The offenders are priests and the institution that covers for them and recycles them. Whether they are homosexual or not is a secondary issue.

    ‘There are two elements to be fought, the homosexual element and the preying on children.’
    And not the cover up?

    ‘It is interesting that the vast majority were 'ordained' in the 1968 'Rite of Ordination', thus they are no more priests than Sinead O'Connor or your mail man.’

    Why get upset when they are criticised if they mean nothing?

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  82. Having explained to him it was all rubbish I told him of the need to respect this life. It is not a practice run for another one.

    lovely sentiment.

    ReplyDelete
  83. John,

    ‘The ones who have taken over are not Catholics. Real Catholics now are very few in number.’

    This sounds very like the sect mentality. But why drive yourself to distraction over criticisms of the whole entity it if it is not even something you are happy with? You criticise it but from a different angle. Why invite so much ridicule in defence of something you don’t believe in?

    ‘I expect Anthony sees the inside of a chapel more than I do.’

    I suspect not. I took the son to see Oliver Plunkett’s head. It was funny as he was on his way to Specsavers which is just across the street so we called in. And he asked ‘is this the glasses place’ so you can imagine what I said to him: you should have gone to Specsavers!

    When it is rebuilt as you suggest what will it be rebuilt as? What relevance would it have? Science has marginalised the explanatory power of the Church. It might not be impacting on belief in god but it certainly shows people that clerics are hardly qualified to explain god.

    ‘With God and St Patrick on side, victory is certain. Amen.’

    Mmm. They are a bit slow off the mark don’t you think?

    To say the common denominator is humanity means we could also say the same for smoking and let the tobacco companies off the hook. It’s a cop out.

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  84. Itsjustmacker,

    You did the right thing, telling the lout priest where to go. He would hit children who refused to tip the forelock to him. He should have been run out of the estate with a brush pole rammed up his ass. That would have confused him eh? ‘Stop it I love it.’ The writer Hilary mantel said ‘When I was a child I wondered why priests and nuns were not nicer people. I thought that they were amongst the worst people I knew.’ Why show them respect?

    John,

    ‘There is Jewish abuse, Moslem abuse, protestant abuse, atheist abuse, FSM abuse, taxi driver abuse, school teacher abuse etc.’

    Of course there is. But is it institutional? What makes a person blinkered is to think that one institution, be it global school teacher, atheist, Moslem, taxi driver, or Jewish, has been so complicit in the cover up, provided a recycling network, has conspired with the rapists against the civil authorities. The global directorship of Taxi drivers has not been moving its abusers from Moscow to France and then the US and helping them evade the civil law. It is not because priests are Catholics that they abuse. It is because they belong to an institution that enables abuse. It is hardly a religious question but more an institutional one. And religion does nothing to curb it, can in fact remove impediments to it by courtesy of religious opinion insisting on special privilege such as canon law.

    ‘It is because of ill-mannered abusive louts like you that society has gone the way it has. I teach my children to respect those in society who are entitled to it, especially holy priests.’

    This is a woefully inadequate response. Why should he respect a lout who would hit a child for not saying ‘hello father.’ There is absolutely nothing in civil law that says he must or he should address the creep. Why are priests ‘especially’ entitled to respect? People have the right to withhold respect from priests or anyone else. Why should itsjustmacker have been expected to respect this lout?

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  85. John

    Andrew Brown:

    ‘the safeguards against paedophilia in the priesthood are now among the tightest in the world … ‘

    Don’t tell that to the priests or they will try to screw the safeguards ... anything tight will do

    ‘objectively your child is less likely to be abused by a Catholic priest in the west today than by the members of almost any other profession.’

    To be serious even if this is correct you miss the point. What other professions operate with a unity of purpose to cover up and thus facilitate the rape of children? There is no global teachers’ organisation that does it; no global taxi drivers association. There are lots of priests that would never dream of harming a child (the vast majority of them). But the institution they belong to is culpable. My late mother could always see this about the Church and abandoned it for that very reason.

    ‘I have a brother who is an atheist. He is so full of hatred that he won't speak to me.’

    It is always difficult when these things have an impact on family relationships. Maybe he is not so full of hate but just finds you so intolerant. Ultimately, I hope you reconcile. I never see the point in falling out with people over their views.

    ‘There is only one God, the One who is the Founder of the Catholic Church and its First Priest.’

    That is only one opinion.

    ReplyDelete
  86. John,

    Let’s presume that the views of the gay radio presenter are correct. Because as you say there is no point in ignoring evidence (even if he presented none, which is fine as he is allowed to express an opinion) we need to go back to the reason that the predators found such a hospitable a base within the Catholic Church. What was it about the Church that so enabled their predatory behaviour? They knew they were joining a body that would make it easier for them to survive and prosper. Their behaviour would be covered up throughout, their critics – even child victims - would be silenced; once caught they would be recycled to another parish where they could start all over again. They knew the Church was fit for purpose in terms of enabling child rape. This is the crux of the problem.

    Saint?MaryHedgehog,

    Keep up the good work. When I look at what you do compared against that corrupt clown Cardinal Egan in the States, it reinforces the view that the clergy can hardly discourse with any authority on ethics.

    ReplyDelete
  87. AM,
    ‘Let’s presume that the views of the gay radio presenter are correct.’

    Okay, let us see where that takes us.

    ‘we need to go back to the reason that the predators found such a hospitable a base within the Catholic Church.’

    Yes.

    ‘What was it about the Church that so enabled their predatory behaviour?’

    ‘They knew they were joining a body that would make it easier for them to survive and prosper. ‘

    Yes.

    ‘Their behaviour would be covered up throughout, their critics – even child victims - would be silenced;’

    In the main, yes.

    ‘once caught they would be recycled to another parish where they could start all over again.’

    Only where their own element held positions of authority. Even today, for example in the USA, there are really two Post Vatican II Catholic Churches. The semi-orthodox one that encourages Catholics to believe and practise their faith, and the pink one which is more akin to a paedophile ring than anything else. This is made up of seminarians, priests, bishops and they will cover for themselves akin to freemasonic brethren. There are parishes in the USA which are ‘no-go’ areas to non gay clergy.

    ‘They knew the Church was fit for purpose in terms of enabling child rape. This is the crux of the problem.’

    And that is why it is absolutely essential that the problem is dealt with. Just one anecdote I heard from a young family the other day. They were in Rome, stopping in a religious house, and the men stayed in one dormitory, ladies in the next. Half way through the night a seminarian jumped in to the bed of the man and tried to molest him. The man beat him senseless and they left. This is happening all over the world, even now. Meanwhile there is almost total denial, because people do not want it to be associated with homosexuality so they refuse to make that first presumption that could explain the infection and allow it to be excised.

    What has happened is that a group has infiltrated a profession for its own purposes. It has also infiltrated many other professions that have not been subject to the same scrutiny as the Church. How tragic it would be if it were allowed to continue, out of fear of offending the ‘gay community.’

    ReplyDelete
  88. John,

    ‘The following paragraphs were written by Sam Miller - a prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman.’

    At the end of WW2 the Red Army fed the German population, gave out health care, and performed a range of essential services. Yet it raped an estimated 2 million German women and girls. And it deserved criticism for it. I don’t know if the Church is guilty of more rapes than the Soviets, but it can hardly be given a free pass because of the good it has done.

    He is right to argue that it is not a Catholic Problem. It is a Catholic Church problem. That is why it is rubbish for him to argue that ‘the agony that Catholics have felt and suffered is not necessarily the fault of the Church. You have been hurt by a very small number of wayward priests.’

    The old bad apple theory – the RUC were not bad, just a few wayward cops. What does he take people for?

    ReplyDelete
  89. What did the Jewish pedophile ask the little girl?

    - "Hey, little girl, you want to buy some candy?"

    ReplyDelete
  90. John,

    the PC brigade will be on us for that!

    ReplyDelete
  91. John,

    I don’t believe that people here are not interested in the truth about the Catholic religion. I think they are fed up to the ears with self serving waffle and lies from the Church; just as they are fed up with the same from SF. But they are prepared to listen. They are very sceptical as to what they are told.

    ‘If there was an interest for the truth, and for the kids, then you would be honest and admit that 99.9% of all child abuse happens outside of the Catholic Church.’

    You always manage to miss the point, deliberately I suspect. The Catholic Church as an institution is culpable of grave misdeeds in respect of clerical rape of children. Maybe that is an ‘interest for the truth’ you overlook. No other global institution has been demonstrated to have been so complicit in child rape.

    ‘But let's not let the facts get in the way of pure un-alloyed Catholic hate.’

    I think most people here see the real hatred coming from yourself. I have detailed to you previously that you have long struck me as a person driven by religious hatred. In most respects not all that different from the fire and brimstone evangelicals. When I look at Willie McCrea or Iris Robinson I don’t see anything that would remotely resemble ‘Christian love’. And it is them you remind me of rather than people like Helder Camara or Oscar Romero. I know Christians who are motivated by love. Their concern is impressive. George Monbiot wrote that the two people most committed to social justice that he ever met were motivated by a love of god. There are others for whom religion provides an outlet for their hatred.

    ‘I recommend the book 'Double Standard: Abuse Scandals and the Attack on the Catholic Church” by David Pierre.’

    Thank you for your recommendation. They are always welcome here where books are read and not burned.

    ‘Personally I oppose abuse wherever it occurs.’

    Why attack itsjustmacker for telling an abusive priest where to get off?

    ‘I have no intention of answering abusive comments because it leads nowhere.’

    On occasion you are as culpable as the others in that regard. You just have the decency to apologise.

    ReplyDelete
  92. AM,

    ‘No other global institution has been demonstrated to have been so complicit in child rape.’

    It certainly has. If you look at the figures in American public schools you see a very similar pattern, with incidents not being reported and teachers moved from school to school. It is so prevalent there that it dwarves anything in the Catholic Church

    Other ‘global institutions’ are Islam and Judaism. Both of these are not only complicit in the abuse of children but their religion allows it. Try ‘googling’ Jewish paedophilia and you will see lists of many, many rabbis who have been abusing kids. These are covered up with enforced secrecy and hardly a word in the media. I wonder why!?

    As for Islam; it teaches abuse. It is everything that you accuse the Catholic Church of. Now if there were a religion that should be banned, it is the one. Its filthy founder built an empire on child abuse and it is coming our way.

    ‘I think most people here see the real hatred coming from yourself. I have detailed to you previously that you have long struck me as a person driven by religious hatred.’

    Our Lord said to St Mary Magdalene, ‘Go and sin no more.’ This has been watered down to ‘carry on sinning’ today. If you say ‘stop the sin’ it is called hate. As I have said before, I hate no-one, but I do hate what will lead people away from good. If I think homosexual acts will take a person to hell, then it is not hate that makes me say that. If I didn’t care about them, I wouldn’t bother about them. Christ is the Truth, He will set people free from the morass of pornography, homosexuality and other evils that are harming society and individuals.

    ‘When I look at Willie McCrea or Iris Robinson I don’t see anything that would remotely resemble ‘Christian love’

    I don’t either, in the main.

    ‘And it is them you remind me of rather than people like Helder Camara or Oscar Romero.’

    I wouldn’t want to be associated with them either. They took their eye off Heaven and tried to create it on earth.

    ‘I know Christians who are motivated by love. Their concern is impressive.’

    Yes, and their first love must be for God, and after that to achieve Salvation for themselves, their families, and lastly society. That is when those who don’t want God call it hate. You are probably correct to say that I don’t come across as Mr Nice, that is because that is what 95% of Catholic priests are doing now, where they have abandoned their flock and are allowing them to plunge down the precipice to eternal ruin, out of a false love that is weak and reluctant to tell people the truth. Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Those in the Church who will not state His Truth and oppose error are the real abusers, (although often clerics who have forgotten Truth are generally those who abuse kids).

    I don’t hate anyone enough to want them to go to Hell, so I want to people to get to Heaven. That is what Love is, It is certainly not closing your eyes and knowing where people are headed and saying, ‘carry on’. Although that view will make you very popular. It is easy to be popular.

    ‘Why attack itsjustmacker for telling an abusive priest where to get off?’’

    I think threatening to break a man’s jaw because he expects good manners is a little unnecessary, hence the minor rebuke. I am sure he hasn’t lost any sleep over it!

    ‘I have no intention of answering abusive comments because it leads nowhere.’

    ‘On occasion you are as culpable as the others in that regard.’

    I know, that’s why I used the present tense. Been there, done that, it is pointless. Being human though I can’t guarantee I won’t do it again.

    ReplyDelete
  93. John,

    ‘If you look at the figures in American public schools you see a very similar pattern, with incidents not being reported and teachers moved from school to school. It is so prevalent there that it dwarves anything in the Catholic Church.’

    Again a distortion. American schools do not register as a global institution.

    ‘Other 'global institutions' are Islam and Judaism. Both of these are not only complicit in the abuse of children but their religion allows it.’

    These are global religions but not global institutions in the sense that the Catholic Church is. But you hardly need tell us that clergy of whatever hue like to rape children. We have been saying it for years.

    Rabbis abusing kids – not in the slightest doubt about it. Or Mullahs. As Tariw Ali pointed out the Mullahs like their boys. Just like priests in that regard.

    ‘Now if there were a religion that should be banned, it is the one.’

    No religion should be banned. People should be free to believe what they want as long as they don’t practice what they believe on others who don’t believe it.

    ‘As I have said before, I hate no-one, but I do hate what will lead people away from good. If I think homosexual acts will take a person to hell, then it is not hate that makes me say that.’
    Self serving fiction to mask the deep hatred that drives you unless I, and probably just about everybody else, have fundamentally misunderstood you. But why would we have done that?

    ‘Christ is the Truth, He will set people free from the morass of pornography, homosexuality and other evils that are harming society and individuals.’

    Loo roll time.

    ‘Yes, and their first love must be for God.’

    They love god through people not in the abstract. That is just an excuse for hatred.

    ‘You are probably correct to say that I don't come across as Mr Nice.’

    I doubt if I said that. You don’t come across as Mr Credible.

    So 95% of Catholic priests are scoundrels? We really need a theocracy don’t you think? Seeing as democracy is amongst the things you hate.

    ‘Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.’

    LOL – you should get yourself a sandwich board and stand with all those Free P clowns outside some women’s centre or cinema or a park with swings on a Sunday.

    ‘I don't hate anyone enough to want them to go to Hell, so I want to people to get to Heaven.’

    And you sound really persuasive! Alright I believe you!

    ‘I think threatening to break a man's jaw because he expects good manners is a little unnecessary.’

    The rotten bastard beat children who did not show him deference. Itsjustmacker stood up to the abuser who you defended. People who do something socially useful. Why show him respect? There are doctors and nurses who people don't have tip the forelock to.

    ‘Been there, done that, it is pointless. Being human though I can't guarantee I won't do it again.’

    Same for us all I suppose. Sort of reinforces the need to be tolerant and learn to live with the faults and foibles of others. George Orwell used to say that most people want to be good but not too good and not all the time. I think I sit in that swathe of unwashed humanity!

    ReplyDelete
  94. AM
    ‘…American schools do not register as a global institution.’

    So you only oppose child abuse in ‘global institutions’ then? BTW the Catholic Church does not have the control you seem to think it has. Recent surveys suggest that most ‘Catholics’ do not accept the teaching of the Church, (look at michaelhenry), so if you think that Rome is dictating in every parish in the world you are much mistaken. In fact since the Robber Council it has ceased to govern anywhere. The Catholic Church as it once was could more or less be said to be extinct now, with just a few pockets of faithful.

    “‘Other 'global institutions' are Islam and Judaism. Both of these are not only complicit in the abuse of children but their religion allows it.’”

    ‘These are global religions but not global institutions in the sense that the Catholic Church is.’

    My point there is that Islam and Judaism permit the abuse of children, while Catholicism condemns it.

    ‘No religion should be banned.’

    And what is the title of this thread again? ‘Try Banning It”

    ‘Loo roll time.’

    More fodder for the Blog!

    ‘You don’t come across as Mr Credible.’

    So that must make me Mr Incredible!

    So 95% of Catholic priests are scoundrels?

    I wouldn’t call them all scoundrels, but many are.

    ‘We really need a theocracy don’t you think? Seeing as democracy is amongst the things you hate.’

    I don’t think some things should ever be put for a vote, do you? A benevolent dictatorship would be an improvement on the current system. Of course I hate extreme democracy, but not extreme democrats.

    ‘The rotten bastard beat children who did not show him deference.’

    We could do with a little more deference.

    ‘I think I sit in that swathe of unwashed humanity!’

    TMI, Stop hating God and go take a dip.

    ReplyDelete
  95. John,

    ‘So you only oppose child abuse in 'global institutions' then?’
    This seems so ignorant a question that it suggests to me that you really are intent on covering up for abuses by the Catholic Church. I long thought Larry was wrong on that. But it strikes me that the deliberate evasiveness lends itself to a conclusion that you do cover. I would not go as far as to say that you take pleasure from children being abused, but you seem much more concerned with the reputation of the Church rather than the wellbeing of children which is what the institution is guilty of: Church first. Sort of puts things in a new light.

    I don’t think that Rome reaches into every parish. But Rome sits at the apex of a global institution that is complicit in the rape of children. If there were another way of seeing it I am open to it.

    ‘The Catholic Church as it once was could more or less be said to be extinct now, with just a few pockets of faithful.’

    The sect/cult mentality. Not a fan of it.

    ‘Islam and Judaism permit the abuse of children, while Catholicism condemns it.’

    Catholicism is what Catholicism does. Islam and Judaism both prosecute for child abuse and they would argue the case on that. I know little about Judaism and intensely dislike Islam but when you have a religion based on a book that justifies the Passover murders, the notion that it somehow disapproves of child abuse is contentious. The very idea of a concept as hateful as original sin suggests little respect for children. I guess all clerics say they disapprove and I suspect that most do object to it.

    ‘And what is the title of this thread again? 'Try Banning It.”

    Again, a profoundly ignorant or dishonest argument. The article was about banning the Catholic Church in Ireland not about banning religion. In fact in the piece it stated ‘There should be no prohibition on religious worship or Catholicism per se. People should be free to practice their faith and believe what they want: Christ or Icke, Liverpool or Chelsea, McIlroy or Harrington. It is not for the state to decide what private club citizens follow or what opinions they hold.’

    But if you don’t even read what you comment on, there is little point in discussing the matter with you.

    What form would this ‘benevolent dictatorship’ take? Are you a fascist?

    ‘Of course I hate extreme democracy’

    Is this a modification of your earlier statement that you ‘loathe democracy’?

    ‘We could do with a little more deference.’

    To a lout like him who beat children who won’t defer to him?

    ‘Stop hating God’

    There is no god to hate

    ReplyDelete
  96. ‘I would not go as far as to say that you take pleasure from children being abused, but you seem much more concerned with the reputation of the Church rather than the wellbeing of children which is what the institution is guilty of: Church first. Sort of puts things in a new light.’

    I believe I have consistently been MORE critical of abuse in the Catholic Church than you have. In fact last year I posted a site http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/hottopics.html
    that highlights and condemns it from the top downwards. I have also consistently condemned abuse outside of the Church. You have consistently exaggerated abuse in the Church and ignored all the evidence that shows that this is minimal when compared with almost any other organization. I can only conclude from your posts that you are almost exclusively driven by hatred of the Catholic Church.

    ‘I don’t think that Rome reaches into every parish. But Rome sits at the apex of a global institution that is complicit in the rape of children. If there were another way of seeing it I am open to it.’

    If you are really open to another way of seeing it, read the book I suggested by David Pierre and you will see the ‘Double Standard’. Of course you won’t ,because a little dose of the truth will put a stop to your ‘I am going to destroy the Catholic Church’ crusade.

    ‘The sect/cult mentality. Not a fan of it.’
    What,, not like sects?

    ‘Islam and Judaism permit the abuse of children, while Catholicism condemns it.’
    ‘Catholicism is what Catholicism does.’
    Atheism is what atheism does. What is their current body count in billions?

    ‘Islam and Judaism both prosecute for child abuse and they would argue the case on that.’
    So no child brides in Islam? No rabbis sucking penises in Judaism? (Don’t believe me, ‘google’ it) .Or maybe you don’t consider these as abuse? A rabbi is even less likely to report abuse than a public school in the USA is.

    ‘I know little about Judaism.’
    Little about Judaism and less about Catholicism.

    ‘and intensely dislike Islam’
    Is there a difference between ‘intensely dislike’ and ‘hate’?

    “‘And what is the title of this thread again? 'Try Banning It.””
    ‘The article was about banning the Catholic Church in Ireland not about banning religion.’
    So let me get this straight. You want to ban the Catholic Church in Ireland? Do you also want to ban it in other countries? It is beginning to sound like how many angels dance on the point of a pin.

    ‘But if you don’t even read what you comment on, there is little point in discussing the matter with you.’
    It was all such a long time ago. It didn’t make sense then either. I really don’t see how you can advocate banning the Catholic Church in Ireland whilst saying you are not advocating banning religion.

    ‘What form would this ‘benevolent dictatorship’ take? Are you a fascist?’
    I added that out of badness. I do that sometimes. I don’t really have an interest in politics.

    “‘Of course I hate extreme democracy’”
    ‘Is this a modification of your earlier statement that you ‘loathe democracy’?’
    Aristotle and Aquinas discuss three modes of government, Monarchy, Aristocracy and Democracy. None of these things have come down with exactly the same meaning. I have no objection to people sharing in the government, but I would never agree that a vote can make an issue like abortion or divorce or gay marriage anything other than wrong. So yes, in the sense that most would use the term ‘democracy ’ I loath it. So, no, I have not modified my view.

    “‘We could do with a little more deference.’”
    ‘To a lout like him who beat children who won’t defer to him?’
    No need for judge or jury for you is there? I admire the gallant priest trying his best to instil respect into hopeless cases.

    ‘There is no god to hate’
    Then why do you hold to the religion of atheism, which defines itself on the basis of God whom it claims it does not believe in?

    ReplyDelete
  97. AM,
    ‘I would not go as far as to say that you take pleasure from children being abused, but you seem much more concerned with the reputation of the Church rather than the wellbeing of children which is what the institution is guilty of: Church first. Sort of puts things in a new light.’

    I believe I have consistently been MORE critical of abuse in the Catholic Church than you have. In fact last year I posted a site http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/hottopics.html
    that highlights and condemns it from the top downwards. I have also consistently condemned abuse outside of the Church. You have consistently exaggerated abuse in the Church and ignored all the evidence that shows that this is minimal when compared with almost any other organization. I can only conclude from your posts that you are almost exclusively driven by hatred of the Catholic Church.

    ‘I don’t think that Rome reaches into every parish. But Rome sits at the apex of a global institution that is complicit in the rape of children. If there were another way of seeing it I am open to it.’

    If you are really open to another way of seeing it, read the book I suggested by David Pierre and you will see the ‘Double Standard’. Of course you won’t, because a little dose of the truth will put a stop to your ‘I am going to destroy the Catholic Church’ crusade.

    ‘The sect/cult mentality. Not a fan of it.’
    What,, not like sects?

    ‘Islam and Judaism permit the abuse of children, while Catholicism condemns it.’
    ‘Catholicism is what Catholicism does.’
    Atheism is what atheism does. What is their current body count in billions?

    ‘Islam and Judaism both prosecute for child abuse and they would argue the case on that.’
    So no child brides in Islam? No rabbis sucking penises in Judaism? (Don’t believe me, ‘google’ it) .Or maybe you don’t consider these as abuse? A rabbi is even less likely to report abuse than a public school in the USA is.

    ‘I know little about Judaism.’
    Little about Judaism and less about Catholicism.

    ‘and intensely dislike Islam’
    Is there a difference between ‘intensely dislike’ and ‘hate’?

    “‘And what is the title of this thread again? 'Try Banning It.””
    ‘The article was about banning the Catholic Church in Ireland not about banning religion.’
    So let me get this straight. You want to ban the Catholic Church in Ireland? Do you also want to ban it in other countries? It is beginning to sound like how many angels dance on the point of a pin.

    ‘But if you don’t even read what you comment on, there is little point in discussing the matter with you.’
    It was all such a long time ago. It didn’t make sense then either. I really don’t see how you can advocate banning the Catholic Church in Ireland whilst saying you are not advocating banning religion.

    ‘What form would this ‘benevolent dictatorship’ take? Are you a fascist?’
    I added that out of badness. I do that sometimes. I don’t really have an interest in politics.

    “‘Of course I hate extreme democracy’”
    ‘Is this a modification of your earlier statement that you ‘loathe democracy’?’
    Aristotle and Aquinas discuss three modes of government, Monarchy, Aristocracy and Democracy. None of these things have come down with exactly the same meaning. I have no objection to people sharing in the government, but I would never agree that a vote can make an issue like abortion or divorce or gay marriage anything other than wrong. So yes, in the sense that most would use the term ‘democracy ’ I loath it. So, no, I have not modified my view.

    “‘We could do with a little more deference.’”
    ‘To a lout like him who beat children who won’t defer to him?’
    No need for judge or jury for you is there? I admire the gallant priest trying his best to instil respect into hopeless cases.

    ‘There is no god to hate’
    Then why do you hold to the religion of atheism, which defines itself on the basis of God whom it claims it does not believe in?

    ReplyDelete
  98. http://www.catholicleague.org/boy-scout-perv-files-revealing/

    ReplyDelete
  99. What are we to believe -

    this
    or
    that ?

    Sort of shows the dangers of an over reliance on the net for anything

    ReplyDelete
  100. 'What are we to believe -

    this
    or
    that ?'

    A lot of both, probably.

    Try this if you don't like the other source!

    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/15/us/oregon-boy-scouts-files/

    ReplyDelete
  101. Or this one:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/14/us-usa-boyscouts-abuse-idUSBRE85D1MM20120614

    ReplyDelete
  102. John,

    'A lot of both, probably.'

    As fair an answer as we might get.

    I am reading no more either for or against. Simply haven't the time.

    ReplyDelete
  103. AM
    'I am reading no more either for or against. Simply haven't the time.'

    20,000 pages of documented sexual abuse of children by the Scouts.

    That much is fact.

    Such abuse is not less evil just because it doesn't have the word 'Catholic' attached to it.

    But the 'Double Standard' will go on and there will barely be a ripple in the media.

    The main difference is that 'Catholic abuse' is historical, it has been identified and stopped, whereas that in the Scouts and particularly in schools goes on apace, with a policy of 'passing on the trash' each time it surfaces, on to new victims and often with generous financial pay-offs.

    ReplyDelete
  104. John,

    The Catholic League?
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/12/catholic-group-says-children-raped-by-priests-were-participants-not-victims/

    I came across this by pure chance I must admit while reading a Valerie Tarico piece. I like her take on matters. Do you recall the head of the RUC Kenneth Newman claiming that prisoners in cop custody were beating themselves up?

    ‘Can you name any of the leaders of 1916 who died outside of the Catholic Faith?’

    No. But I feel that type of argument is limiting in its persuasiveness. Otherwise we would exclude from the republican gallery all those Protestants who died for Ireland. You claim to hate the faith that many of the men of 1798 died in. Wolfe Tone is no less a republican because he hit out at priestcraft.

    Although I am not always sure what weight can be given to these types of assertions. Brendan Hughes was buried from a church and hadn’t a religious thought in his head. A family thing. Gerry Adams goes to mass every week but I doubt very much he believes in god.

    ‘You continue to use British black propaganda to sully the name of Roger Casement.’

    The best studies in my view show that Casement was not the victim of British Black propaganda. The diaries were most unlikely to have been forgeries. No doubt the British used them to discredit him in the prejudiced era that was then but it does not follow that they were fake. I have seen nothing that would seriously substantiate the claim that they were fake. It would be great to find evidence because it would demonstrate that the British were even more malign in their handling of the matter.

    ‘He was a great man who died reconciled with the Catholic Faith.’

    We see why you need to deny the authenticity of the diaries. He was no less a great man because he was gay. If he abused children he was not a great man at all.

    ‘this thread is about you wanting to ban the religion that all the leaders of 1916 died in.’

    It never was. It is about banning the rape cartel in Ireland. Religious thought should not be banned, nor thoughts about Manchester United. People have a right to hold such thoughts. They have a right to practice their religion – on themselves but not on others not of that religious opinion.

    I am not a banner by temperment or instinct otherwise you would have been in the sin bin a long time ago!

    ‘A simple google search will tell you that the main culprits are "teachers, coaches, substitute teachers, bus drivers and teacher's aides" who account for 69% of all abuse.’

    Alfie I feel has dealt competently with this argument. What is the name of the pope of all those groups? Where is their directorate situated? Has that directorate been complicit in child rape?

    ‘The abuse by priests is so minuscule’

    So said the pope and he is infallible and we have no option but to believe him! But it seems so dismissive of the hundreds of thousands of victims of the Church over the centuries.

    ReplyDelete
  105. you dont have to be good at anagrams to see that pope Benedict is an epic Bent pedo

    ReplyDelete
  106. John

    In relation to recycling you said ‘only where their own element held positions of authority.’

    Given that it was from the top down – look at the position of the Pole, he did nothing to prevent it while knowingly preventing investigations – that sort of eats into the credibility of that theory.

    It is pointless to juggle the Churches the way you do: you, when it suits, choosing to support some mythical one that never embraced Vatican 2, and damning the real one which exists and which is invariably the topic of conversation in these exchanges.

    Even were we to concede that homosexuality was the driving force behind the phenomenon of clerical child rape why do the rapists congregate in the Church and get protection? Your answer does not stack up.

    How tragic it would be if it were allowed to continue, out of fear of offending the 'gay community.'

    The Vatican hardly allowed it to continue out of fear of the gay community

    ReplyDelete
  107. ‘So you only oppose child abuse in 'global institutions' then?’
    Limited listening as well as limited thinking.

    ‘The Catholic Church as it once was could more or less be said to be extinct now, with just a few pockets of faithful.’

    To the extent that this might be true, why get upset over attacks on an institution that you don’t even think is the Church?

    Islam and Judaism permit the abuse of children, while Catholicism condemns it.
    Catholicism allows it through its Church’s policy of cover up, complicity, intimidation of rape victims ...

    What we preach matters not if what we practice is the opposite.

    AM: 'No religion should be banned.'

    JM: And what is the title of this thread again? 'Try Banning It”’
    Limited listening again. ‘It’ was the rape cartel not the religion

    ‘I don't think some things should ever be put for a vote, do you?’
    The system that underpins them should rest on the vote. Voting on everything is not practical. Voting is, or should be, a question of who decides and who empowers them to decide

    So it is ‘extreme democracy’ you hate now not plain old democracy.
    ‘We could do with a little more deference.’

    Why? And why to the thug that beat kids who would not show it?

    ReplyDelete
  108. John,

    ‘I believe I have consistently been MORE critical of abuse in the Catholic Church than you have.’

    Strange the things people believe, now.

    ‘You have consistently exaggerated abuse in the Church’
    Where?

    ‘If you are really open to another way of seeing it, read the book I suggested by David Pierre’

    So much to read before I sleep, unfortunately.

    ‘because a little dose of the truth will put a stop to your 'I am going to destroy the Catholic Church' crusade.’

    Up to now it has fuelled it!

    ‘Atheism is what atheism does.’

    Atheism is just people and no church, bad and good. Some guilty of terrible things and some responsible for great things.

    They have as much right to comment on morality as anybody else. None of them are infallible. Just like everybody else.

    What is their current body count in billions? Probable the same as believers. I have no way of telling. But it is probably most unlikely that it is their atheism that drives them. Whereas for many of the religious they do it because of their faith.

    ‘So no child brides in Islam?’

    I believe there are just as there are child rape victims in Catholicism

    ‘No rabbis sucking penises in Judaism?’

    In some parts of it just as some priests tell kids it is a way to receive holy communion.

    Is there a difference between 'intensely dislike' and 'hate'?

    I am not sure. Sometimes I think there is, other times I don’t.
    ‘Do you also want to ban it in other countries?’

    Where it functions as a rape cartel of course. Why not?

    ‘I really don't see how you can advocate banning the Catholic Church in Ireland whilst saying you are not advocating banning religion.’

    And you who can see god in a wafer can’t see something as simple as that.

    ‘I would never agree that a vote can make an issue like abortion or divorce or gay marriage anything other than wrong.’

    So for that reason you can’t be compelled to have an abortion or engage in gay sex against your will, or be forced to divorce your wife.

    ‘why do you hold to the religion of atheism, which defines itself on the basis of God whom it claims it does not believe in?’
    I am not a joiner of clubs.

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  109. Celebrating Women's Freedom By Silencing Women

    SMH,

    The proliferation of statues and pictures seems a case of social control: Big Brother is everywhere. Many religious cultures have it.

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  110. John,

    Such abuse is not less evil just because it doesn't have the word 'Catholic' attached to it.

    True.

    ‘But the 'Double Standard' will go on and there will barely be a ripple in the media.’

    The focus in the media is because the institution that sets itself up as the moral authority is up to its neck in child rape. Sort of simple is it not?

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