I don’t believe a week went by in West Donegal where you hadn’t a child or a number of children sexually abused . It’s horrendous. Anywhere you look around here which is so hard to fathom: by-roads, side roads, churches, schools – the abuse here was something unbelievable, unbelievable. And the fact that nobody in the public spoke out about this after the total carnage here - Retired Garda Martin Ridge
Darragh MacIntyre is a terrier when it comes to his journalistic work. When he gets his teeth into something he gnaws until he bites through. What he did to the Northern Ireland Prison Service over its handling of vulnerable prisoners, he repeated in his latest output for the BBC, This World: The Shame of the Catholic Church. He took a chunky bit out of what remains of the credibility of the less than venerable institution in Ireland. From Donegal to Rome he pursued the men of god, as elusive as they were evasive, in a search of justice for their victims. Diversion signs did little to deter this indefatigable reporter.
And diversion it surely was. For over three decades nothing was done by the Catholic Church to prevent the odious rapist Eugene Greene preying on the young of Raphoe. This Christian gentleman went about his abuse business aided by his Church who, when he was rumbled, moved him on to new pastures where he could preach his gospel of rape again.
Martin Gallagher made this very point about the priest who raped him. Eugene Greene was trafficked out by the hierarchy every time questions of abuse surfaced. The human rights lawyer Geoffrey Robertson in his excellent book discusses this universal church strategy in some detail. Martin Gallagher said that the ‘bishops spread the disease.’ Greene ‘had the disease, they spread it. It’s as simple as ABC.’ To all but those who will not see. For more than thirty years the Church covered up the crimes of Greene, and helped allow the malignancy to metastasize in one parish after another.
As horrendous as the experience of the victims of the Church has been, those of them who forwent privacy to shed light into the dark world of Catholicism were truly inspirational people. Coming on live TV, the comfort of anonymity cast aside forever, to relate what they had endured at the hands of the Church was no easy task. Yet we sympathise with those who feel the need to keep their identity secret, probably because that would be our instinct in such circumstances. Who but the bravest want that out in the public eye?
When Conal Melly spoke of confronting Greene, his abuser, and bodily flinging him across the floor my wish was for him to have flung the sadistic thug out a 6th floor window, tied to every bishop within 300 miles, the adieu ‘godspeed’ the last thing they would ever hear. The rapist, inoculated against chutzpah, then reported Melly to the Garda. Fortunately, the Garda, with a greater sense of urgency than the Church ever showed, spoiled it all for Greene. It was the beginning of the end. After dozens of the victims came forward Greene was sentenced to 12 years.
Damningly, the Church was more than supportive of priests like Greene going to the police to allege assault against those they claimed manhandled them. But woe betide the person who thought of going to the police to level assault accusations against priests.
Darragh MacIntyre’s investigation aired what was long suspected: the much talked about culture of silence wasn’t so much the problem as the culture of fear cultivated by the hierarchy. It is what anti democratic institutions rely on. Coercion is second nature to them.
Also underscored was the farcical nature of the Raphoe Report, one of six country wide audits established to review of the Church’s child protection measures. What was relied on in the investigation was the Church’s own records. When it came to consulting its victims, they were treated as they had been during decades of cover up, ignored. As the documentary concluded the Church never intended to fully investigate the past, merely cloud it in a blanket of fog. The Tirconaill Tribune editor was scathing of any audit that did not talk to the abused. His paper dismissed it as a whitewash.
The actions of the Raphoe rapist and the protection afforded him by his extended church network has further eroded confidence in the Church. The idea that a loving god could be remotely associated with such a body defies reason. It is estimated that fewer than a dozen priests are to be ordained from Maynooth this year. Progress of sorts but a ban on the practice at that stage is probably the most productive strategy. Society, whether through legislation proscribing the priesthood or relentless critique and opprobrium, should aim at getting priest recruitment down to nil. That would be the most progressive child protection measure introduced to date.
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I have long held the view that religions were set up by men for men, religion is a very strong and powerful way of influencing men and getting them to understand that together they can be very persuasive. Much like most institutions set up by man religious cults control the way we live and educate ourselves, this gives them total control over every day life. For instance here in Ireland they have had total control of the primary school education system, what a brilliant piece of manoeuvring get control of the very ingredient that the people they get to join need and thrive on.
ReplyDeleteThe Catholic religion is in my opinion was formed by paedophiles for paedophiles, what Sean Brady is telling us is that the his cult has a set of rules by which anyone whom joins must take an oath to abide by much like the Mafia and its code of omerta . Some how and I can’t verify this but I would hazard a guess the Mafia would be against child abuse unlike the Brady bunch.
Anyone who can tell a whopping big lie about a virgin having a child and him becoming a god is a very dangerous person but even more so that he can get millions to believe him, Brady will have his believers who will try and convince us its not poor Seanie’s fault he was only doing his job are even more dangerous than he
@ Boyne Rover.
ReplyDeleteI agree 100% what you have posted, the so called virgin birth, this part of our religious history is highly debatable, do we have the correct Mary, as in Mary Magdaleene, the same mary who bathed Jesus feet!!!, Mary the prostitute?, it does not matter what we have been taught, To me it was all a load of crap, as you say, "MADE BY MAN FOR MAN".
If a God ever existed, and, he done all those miracles, Like, "Lift up thy bed and walk", the curing of the blind man, the feeding of the thousands with two loaves and fishes, well, they must have been gigantic loaves and fishes, mass hysteria!, or, mass hypnotism ?.In this the 21st century, if Jesus was to appear, he would be certified and locked up. It is not only the Catholic church, all religions have jumped on the band wagon in this modern age, In my opinion, they are all paedophiles. No matter what Bible you read, it is the most contradictable book on this planet, it is always a winner, Why?, Because it cant lose. We live in such a sick and depraved world, when those who were our so called redemptionists, They are nothing but pure evil, they should have theire private parts cut of, superglued into there mouths whilst the are alive, and ask, "NOW, HOW THe F**K do you like it, I presume they would ask for a bigger one!.
The Inquisitin, when women were branded as witches because they would not let a pope have his way?. What a terrible sick world we live in, and this is the 21st century. I have nothing against Gay people, In my opinion, they are born in the wrong body, ie, male body, brain tells them they are female and viceversa, that is nature not a deformatory, BUT for any human adul to abuse a child, then, they believe everything they read, ie, Jesus said, SUFFER UNTO ME LITTLE CHILDREN, and they take it as, F**k them children all you can. Depraved People, were is the Devil?, evil is within us all, but some of us can control it, have you ever wanted to shoot someone, but against the green book orders?, I DID, because that person i did not trust, and, i reported it, I was told under no circumstances NOT TO DO IT. As my Brain is my witness, I should have shot the bastard tout, because i now realise, the one who told me not to do it, was a fuc*ing tout himself, and is still alive to this very day!!!!!, my moto is trust your own instinct, YOU WILL SEE THE TRUTH.
did i miss a good night out last night or something??
ReplyDeleteReligion was siezed upon in the medieval period for organization and over-all control. its out dated. the banks have had their turn playing god now.
itsjustmacker...'justbeglad' you survived the IRA and look at the gobshites mcguinness and gerry and liam adams have about them today. sail on and be happy you're still around to do it.
on the issue of the article, there seems no bottom to the 'pit' of just how little the RC church cared for its flock. Not just in Ireland but globally. Ban them immediately. keep the churches for the genuine old dears to pray in. Thank heavens my grandparents didnt live to see this disgrace. 'it would have killed them'. couldnt resist that.
ReplyDeleteWas religion made by man for man. Simple answer is yes. Was Jesus the son of god? Only from 325AD after a vote was taken in the 1st council of Nicea and the ground rules for cannon law were put in place.
ReplyDeleteCould mary have been a virgin birth? Probably if you think outside the box. it happens todays only we call it IVF treatment. The bottom line (for me at least) is simple. I don't for one minute think we evolved from the sea like Darwin claimed.
But I do think we are some sort of a genetic experiment that gods let get out of hand and the gods can't control us any more (a bit like letting the genie out of the bottle..By then it's too late).
Take for instant the story of Noah and his Ark. Even today if there was a catastrophique event, we couldn't build a vessel to save two of each kind. But a DNA data base is another story. Probably more plausible.
Take a look at ancient egyptian hieroglyphs, some of their 'squibles' look very much like 'dna helical structure',..Even the Sphnix is a hybride.
And for Cardinal Brady, not only should he be forced to resign but put on trial for with holding information on a crime that most right thinking people find abhorrent. I hope he is put on trial and locked away.
frankie
ReplyDelete'And for Cardinal Brady, not only should he be forced to resign but put on trial for with holding information on a crime that most right thinking people find abhorrent. I hope he is put on trial and locked away'.
EXACTLY
No worries, I'm sure John McGirr will visit Father Green weekly to provide support and receive the eucharist.
ReplyDeleteRyan,
ReplyDeletewhile I concede that John's views on these things are very dismaying I doubt very much if he will pursue that option. Paradoxically, whereas some of us here would advocate a liberal approach to punishment, John I think would boil Greene in oil. He wrongly wants to protect the Church institution rather than the rapist within it.
Not sure I agree with you AM. While I respect his Irish republicanism John seems to care more about the Church and the damage its done to the Church. The kids are secondary.
ReplyDeleteHas he ever expressed genuine horror at these acts and compassion toward the victims?
"He wrongly wants to protect the Church institution rather than the rapist within it"
ReplyDeleterereading that maybe you are right. But does that make it better? The lone rapist may have abused dozens. The institution allowed thousands upon thousands to be abused.
Frankie et al. Watch this video if you want another insight into the Christ idea;
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM78_ZEE-Os&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Puts paid to the christian narrative.
AM,
ReplyDeleteJohn McGirr would certainly relish boiling rapists like Eugene Greene in oil, not to mention sending them to hell for eternity. However, if I understand his views correctly, he does not want to protect the institution of the RC Church as it currently stands. He believes that Vatican II infected the institution with the twin viruses of liberalism and homosexuality. As John sees it, gay liberals committed the abuse and/or covered it up. Since he thinks Vatican II caused the problem, he would probably advocate abolishing its reforms and returning to the days of Latin mass, etc.
As I have argued before, I don't think John's views on the clerical abuse crisis stand up to serious scrutiny.
Firstly, even conservative Catholic commentator David Quinn notes that whether a liberal or conservative bishop was in charge of a diocese, he tended to handle abuse cases badly.
Secondly, psychotherapist and ex-priest Richard Sipe conducted a long-term, large-scale study on priest's sexuality, monitoring 1000 priests for a 25-year period. Sipe found no connection between whether a priest was homosexual and whether he abused minors. Indeed, sociologist David Finkelhor would seem to be right when he claims that those who abuse children or young teenagers have a sort of "separate sexual orientation" and are not generally interested in sex with adults.
There is much evidence that child sexual abuse has been a persistent problem in the RC Church. The Ryan report documents abuse and its cover-up in the industrial schools during the 1930s and 1940s. Moreover, Leon Podles notes that some of the worst abuse occurred long before the reforms of Vatican II. It is true that the number of reported clerical abuse cases in the US rose dramatically in the 1960s and 1970s and declined equally dramatically in the 1980s; however, the most plausible reason for this is the increased reporting and greater awareness of child abuse in society. There was also a much greater openness towards sex in general in society from the 1960s onwards. Indeed, there is a much similar pattern in the rise and fall of reported child abuse/neglect in wider society in that time period. Something similar happened with adult rape statistics. Thus I really don't see how Vatican II can be blamed for all that.
AM and John McGirr,
ReplyDeletePage 76 of the SAVI report might be instructive in this matter. It shows that, in Ireland at least, there was a large rise in reported abuse of children born between 1911-29 and 1930-49. The reported abuse cases rose again for children born between 1950-1969, but declined for those born between 1970-1983. If the pattern for clerical sexual abuse in Ireland is anything like that in Irish society as a whole, then it would seem that the rise in reported abuse began in the 40s and 50s, not in the 60s.
'Paradoxically, whereas some of us here would advocate a liberal approach to punishment, John I think would boil Greene in oil.'
ReplyDeleteThat sounds okay with me, Anthony.
Here are a few pargraphs from St. Pius V about homosexuality in the clergy.
"That horrible crime, on account of which corrupt and obscene cities were destroyed by fire through divine condemnation, causes us most bitter sorrow and shocks our mind, impelling us to repress such a crime with the greatest possible zeal.
Quite opportunely the Fifth Lateran Council [1512-1517] issued this decree: "Let any member of the clergy caught in that vice against nature, given that the wrath of God falls over the sons of perfidy, be removed from the clerical order or forced to do penance in a monastery" (chap. 4, X, V, 31).
So that the contagion of such a grave offense may not advance with greater audacity by taking advantage of impunity, which is the greatest incitement to sin, and so as to more severely punish the clerics who are guilty of this nefarious crime and who are not frightened by the death of their souls, we determine that they should be handed over to the severity of the secular authority, which enforces civil law.
Therefore, wishing to pursue with greater rigor than we have exerted since the beginning of our pontificate, we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death, as mandated by law as the fitting punishment for laymen who have sunk into this abyss.
(Constitutionn Horrendum illud scelus, August 30, 1568).
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteJohn McGirr would certainly relish boiling rapists like Eugene Greene in oil, not to mention sending them to hell for eternity. However, if I understand his views correctly, he does not want to protect the institution of the RC Church as it currently stands. He believes that Vatican II infected the institution with the twin viruses of liberalism and homosexuality. As John sees it, gay liberals committed the abuse and/or covered it up. Since he thinks Vatican II caused the problem, he would probably advocate abolishing its reforms and returning to the days of Latin mass, etc.'
That is a fair summary of my position. But, I would add that Vatican II did not come out of a vacuum. The ideas that triumphed at Vatican II were a long-time in the making. I am not suggesting that everything was wonderful before Vatican II, rather that the putrification became the new orthodoxy after its ideas triumphed at Vatican II.
'Watch this video if you want another insight into the Christ idea;
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM78_ZEE-Os&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Puts paid to the christian narrative.'
Ha ha. Just watched it. If that is the best you can come up with, I don't think the 'Christian narrative' has anything to fear.
That has to be the wackiest, ill-thought out, childish, loony conspiracy that I have ever wasted loading a youtube video over. Ha ha ha!
Boyne Rover,
ReplyDelete'The Catholic religion is in my opinion was formed by paedophiles for paedophiles...'
itsjustmacker,
'It is not only the Catholic church, all religions have jumped on the band wagon in this modern age, In my opinion, they are all paedophiles.'
Don't know if you two are married, but the typical child abuser is a married man, often with children and even grandchildren. Only an idiot would blame all husbands or the institution of marriage on account of married men who abuse.
Well John it isn't a conspiracy. It's quite an open theory. If you have problems with its logic then tell me what those problems are.
ReplyDeleteI'm astonished at your gall in accessing anything as conspiratorial or crack pot given your slavish allegiance to perhaps the most insidious political institution in the world.
Tomás,
ReplyDeleteThe clip you provided is full of outrageous claims. I was not aware that it made use of logic, it was more a synthesis of fallacious reasoning.
However, I provide a link here that deals with its claims. Whoever has compiled this rebuttal obviously has more patience than I have.
http://webskeptic.wikidot.com/zeitgeist-story-of-jesus
The Catholic Church gave rise to Western civilization and, in particular, Irish civilization. And it is not a political institution, indeed its founder, Jesus Christ, True God and True man, explicitly stated 'My Kingdom is not of this world!'
This nonsense makes some of Bishop Williamson's conspiracy theories seem positively mainline. But, as Web Sceptic says; they research and debunk outrageous claims on the internet.
Martyboy stands up in Stormont and tells Sean Brady to consider the victims.somewhere someone shouts Frank Heargty...
ReplyDeleteThe coming together of man and woman is as you say top of list when it comes to kids being abused, what we can do in this instance is contact the police and report the crime, that’s unless you’re a 35 year old secondary school teacher in a black scary outfit, he would take the child one side threaten him and not tell the police because his club have their own rules which is cover up first
ReplyDeleteWhen a football club or any type of club is set up they mostly look for people with the best ability to play their particular code.
So be it with the Catholic church it is still my belief that men set it up for paedophiles, how can these people whom are the most highly educated in society keep spinning the same old tried and tested guff when caught out in another sex scandal. These people are dangerous the abuser is a bad person but the cover up comes from the Vatican.
Now John you called me an Idiot ,I may well be about others things but this one I have nailed good and proper,
To me an Idiot would be someone whom believes in an IVISIBLE man that no one has ever seen, but it is said in folklore that he had a son to a virgin, you might well call anyone whom believes this to be holy and a god fearing catholic, I have one word for it GOBSHITE
The description of astrological phenomenon is not an outrageous claim. Iit's logic is both plain and reasonable....unlike your own.
ReplyDeleteYour belief of a god entity creating the universe, with humans included who hold imperfection or' original sin'. Then sending himself in the form of a man (and his son bizarrely) to be betrayed by the imperfect humans he created; in order for himself to forgive us for the imperfection he built into the design. That John is bonkers.
Boyne Rover,
ReplyDelete‘…what we can do in this instance is contact the police and report the crime,…’
So I take it your main concern is that Brady did not contact the police. You are obviously not a Republican then.
‘Now John you called me an Idiot ,…’
I did not call you an idiot. I said; “Only an idiot would blame all husbands or the institution of marriage on account of married men who abuse.” Only you know if this applies to you.
‘So be it with the Catholic church it is still my belief that men set it up for paedophiles,…’
So you are an IDIOT (N.B. my first use of this term directed at you).
‘To me an Idiot would be someone whom believes in an IVISIBLE man that no one has ever seen, but it is said in folklore that he had a son to a virgin, you might well call anyone whom believes this to be holy and a god fearing catholic, I have one word for it GOBSHITE’
Do you really think your ancestors were ‘gobshites’?
PS,
Constant misuse of ‘who’ and ‘whom’ tend to make one look more like an idiot!
Tomás,
ReplyDeleteIf any one ever told me that I would post a quotation from Richard Dawkins on the PQ in defence of reason, I would not have believed him.
Nevertheless, here goes:
"I am deeply suspicious of this video. I think there are SOME revealing similarities between the Jesus myth, and the other god myths mentioned. But there are surely not as many similarities as are alleged here. For example, all those gods being born on 'December 25th.' That would be an amazingly powerful weapon against Christianity if it were true, but it is surely not true. Our system of naming dates didn't even exist when some of those god myths arose. This cavalier use of 'December 25th' is just one example. I am suspicious of many other details on similar grounds. The whole film has the air of something made up, in pursuit of an anti-Christian agenda (with which I happen to sympathize) but with almost complete disregard for truth, which I fear parallels the lies told by religious apologists."
-- Richard Dawkins
John Mc
ReplyDeleteWe all have opinions and sometimes they are hard to understand,
But for the life of me I cannot understand your reference to being a Republican and reporting child abuse.
Am I now to believe that Republicans handle child abuse problems themselves also?
Boyne Rover,
ReplyDelete'Am I now to believe that Republicans handle child abuse problems themselves also?'
Well they certainly should. (of course Gerry is not an example to be followed).
Boyne Rover,
ReplyDeleteSee you have as much confidence in the Church as I have.
itsjustmacker
‘Gay people, In my opinion, they are born in the wrong body, ie, male body, brain tells them they are female ‘
I see it differently. It does not explain those gay men who wish to be on top so to speak. I don’t believe we can put it down to something ‘wrong’ in nature. It is just something that adds to the tapestry of human society and takes away from the blandness of sameness.
Larry,
I think you are right. Banning it is probably the best move the State could make
'Banning it is probably the best move the State could make'
ReplyDeleteWhy not just throw all Catholics to the lions?
Maybe learn from the English too, and put the heads of their priests on spikes!
After all, 'Catholic hate' is the only 'hate' that is not only tolerated but positively encouraged.
Frankie,
ReplyDelete‘I don't for one minute think we evolved from the sea like Darwin claimed.’
While I wouldn’t get hooked on it, the theory seems plausible enough.
john
ReplyDeletecatholic priests getting organised. 500 yrs later and Lutherism arrives in Ireland. maybe if we wait another two years we'll have an industrial revolution?
we follow the brits in everything they do...religion might have saved an awful lot of trouble....not to mention kiddies with sore 'holes'.
Ryan,
ReplyDelete‘While I respect his Irish republicanism John seems to care more about the Church and the damage its done to the Church.
The kids are secondary.’
Whatever his intention that is the terminus of where his stance ends up.
I don’t think it makes it any better that he seeks to protect the institution rather than the rapist. In seeking to protect the institution and deflect blame the children are cast to the wayside. Princes before paupers.
John,
You miss the point again. Consideration should be given to banning the church because of its liability as a veritable rape cartel. Catholic belief should not be banned. But any society cannot be governed by club rules. Clubs have no automatic right to legally operate. If that were so the Mafia could exist quite legally. Catholics should be allowed to believe whatever they want and should not be punished for it. But like everybody else in society they can hardly claim immunity if they are part of a rape cartel.
not only part of it mackers they til this very day stubbornly refuse to put kiddies before church interests.
ReplyDeletei was distracted earlier...meant to type maybe if we wait another 200 years we'll have an industrial revolution.
and...after following the brits in all else..if we'd done so in religion we'd have been spared an awful lot of trouble.
Yeah John you do seem to be a staunch republican and leaving aside theological opinion, since the formation of Maynooth ,those who claim to be the spokesmen for the church have demonised republicans every time they raised their heads and at the whim of the brit establishment,how can you find peace of mind in the company of such harlots,it wasnt that long ago they were condemning Bobby Sands and his comrades ,my wifes name was read out in public from the pulpit and that was during the height of the loyalist assassinations, now they are to be seen at every given opportunity in the company of those other treacherous bastards who willingly sold out their people for their version of Maynooth i.e. Stormont perfect bedfellows if you ask me. John I for one respect you as a fellow republican, I admire your loyality,but I believe you should find a better outlet to express your devotion to a higher deity than that bunch of paedophiles and their facilitators.
ReplyDeleteDear John
ReplyDelete"So I take it your main concern is that Brady did not contact the police. You are obviously not a Republican then"
Of course its my main concern he should have reported it to them and also WTF has being a republican got to do with this whole debate
boyne rover
ReplyDeletebrilliant!!!!!!!!
Boyne Rover,
ReplyDelete"So I take it your main concern is that Brady did not contact the police. You are obviously not a Republican then"
'Of course its my main concern he should have reported it to them and also WTF has being a republican got to do with this whole debate'
Nothing really. Just seems a little ironic that a Republican Blog is so offended that an illegal police force should be contacted. Personally I would not contact them then, nor now.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteThe establishment of Maynooth was always going to be problematic as it was another British masterstroke to maintain a degree of control which led to its foundation. As a result of this, there has always been a number of clerics in the Irish Church who have no clue about the Irish right to freedom. Political abuses were thus commonplace, and wrong.
Fortunately the Church is there to help us save our souls, and we are perfectly entitled to listen to it in its area of expertise and ignore those within it who had sold out politically. A similar situation arose in eastern Europe under communism, where many of the clergy were secretly working for the State. There have also been some outstanding patriotic Irish clerics.
But how many would have gone to their deaths in 1916 if not sustained by the Faith of our Fathers? Even the men of 1981 dying on hunger strike, and sometimes with a deeper Christian view than those condemning them, would surely not have given their lives if they thought they were heading for a void.
Alfie,
ReplyDelete‘I don't think John's views on the clerical abuse crisis stand up to serious scrutiny.’
That has long been my view. I think the post Vatican two argument is a fallacy for many of the reasons you point out. Clerics have been raping kids since time immemorial.
Alfie,Anthony Brian Mórs statement could apply to that last statement,"its what we do"
ReplyDeleteJohn Mc
ReplyDelete“Nothing really. Just seems a little ironic that a Republican Blog is so offended that an illegal police force should be contacted. Personally I would not contact them then, nor now”
Great words indeed,so in your mighty world contacting the Garda is a no go even if it meant protecting innocent little children who are being raped and buggered by men. I can only say John you must be very proud to be a republican and they to have you .
AM, Alfie et al.
ReplyDelete"‘I don't think John's views on the clerical abuse crisis stand up to serious scrutiny.’"
"That has long been my view. I think the post Vatican two argument is a fallacy for many of the reasons you point out. Clerics have been raping kids since time immemorial."
But the point is that prior to Vatican II there was a discipline which severely punished a deviant, (not to mention the fear of eternal damnation).
Post Vatican II we have sodomy eulogised by a plethora of gay misfits who no longer believe they are called to chastity and who would laugh at the concept of eternal damnation. They revel in their filth and their bishop buddies are happy to shuffle them round to pastures new.
'Great words indeed,so in your mighty world contacting the Garda is a no go even if it meant protecting innocent little children who are being raped and buggered by men. I can only say John you must be very proud to be a republican and they to have you .'
ReplyDeleteIf I knew a child was under threat I would go to the legal authority, aka the RA. But then it is the likes of you, backing illegal cops that keeps us where we are.
John,
ReplyDeleteDo you think it is right that children should be burned to death in cities, a death inflicted on them by divine condemnation because the divine did not like gays? The ‘cure’ here seems worse than the ‘crime’.
Nor do we live by the laws and values of 1658 no more than we would use medical advice from 1658. But even here, the problem seems to have been one of the Church not handing people over to secular authority. As for lawful authority how many priests were handed over by the Church to whatever IRA you consider to be the lawful authority?
AM,
ReplyDelete‘Do you think it is right that children should be burned to death in cities, a death inflicted on them by divine condemnation because the divine did not like gays?’
As St Thomas tells us, He only permits evil where a greater good can come out of it, in this case, eternal happiness for the innocent trumps a brief period of misery on earth.
‘But even here, the problem seems to have been one of the Church not handing people over to secular authority.’
I agree with you on that. But maybe that is at least partially because the secular authorities do not consider sodomy a crime any more.
As St Pius V said;
“we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death….”
‘As for lawful authority how many priests were handed over by the Church to whatever IRA you consider to be the lawful authority?’
I’m not aware that any were, hence the problem we face. I bet it would have put a stop to the homo brigade if they had been.
john
ReplyDeleteis the rc church in ireland republican? was it ever? no! so hand the whole fukin lot over to the police both sides of the border...AND YOU with em is what i say!!
sodomy is legal between consenting adults ya twisted man...not kiddie fiddling and rape!!
you are gettin worse by the post.
Johnny Mac
ReplyDeleteSo you would do same as Brady report crimes against children to the RA,
aka Religious Authority
John,
ReplyDeleteThe Dawkins quote helps ground these issues considerably. I think too often fences are rushed in these matters and then those arguing for reason end up sounding as unreasonable as they feel religious people to be.
Although some of your recent comments suggest you have lost the plot.
I can’t understand why the republican thing has any impact on justice for children. I tend to feel that Boyne Rover could stake a claim to be a republican, if he chose to, much more strongly than others on the grounds that republicanism if inspired by justice must render onto Caesar what is Caesar’s – let the secular authorities deal with crime. Although I am sure if what he sees in your argument is representative of republicanism then he will, with great justification, be thankful to zod (as Larry says)that he is not a republican.
If one of your children went missing you would really go to the IRA and not the police? And what do you think the IRA is likely to tell you? They will tell you to let the police know as the best way to prevent her/him coming to harm.
Unfortunately this is beginning to sound like patriotism becoming the last refuge for the scoundrel.
The neutral observer sitting back watching these exchanges would come to conclusions about what views are idiotic and I doubt very much if the finger will be pointed the way of Boyne Rover. I find it hard to believe that an unquestionably intelligent mind can churn out stuff like you do and expect to be taken seriously. You might be a committed Christian but you must be the worst salesman in Christendom.
Given that we are of common descent, I would say yes, many of our ancestors were gobshites and everything else. And if Jesus thought he was god then he was a gobshite too! That’s the thing about many secularists, we are able to say that sort of thing and have something said back in kind and get on with it. No hiding behind the ‘oh I am so offended’ barricade.
Larry,
ReplyDelete'... so hand the whole fukin lot over to the police both sides of the border...AND YOU with em is what i say!!
On what grounds are you wanting to hand me over to the police?
'sodomy is legal between consenting adults ya twisted man...not kiddie fiddling and rape!!'
You defend putting your p***S into another man's backside and call me twisted, you pervert!
If priests do not sodomize, then they won't be sodomizing kids! Do you need me to say it slower for you?
'you are gettin worse by the post.'
I never had any respect for you since you sullied the name of Michaela Harte, so I expect nothing but uneducated, sick mutterings from you.
AM,
ReplyDelete‘If one of your children went missing you would really go to the IRA and not the police? And what do you think the IRA is likely to tell you? They will tell you to let the police know as the best way to prevent her/him coming to harm.’
The comment about Republicans not going to the police was, (as I have already stated), mere irony. Given that one of the major players who would like to scalp Brady is that Shit Féiner from Derry, who colluded with Adams and provided cover for a paedophile, I do find it amusing. But, as we learned in the past, it isn’t abuse unless it is done by Catholic priests. Oscar Wilde could do as he pleases, raping little black boys, but if he were a priest it would become wrong.
‘The neutral observer sitting back watching these exchanges would come to conclusions about what views are idiotic and I doubt very much if the finger will be pointed the way of Boyne Rover.’
Do you really think that the Catholic Church was founded to provide victims for paedophiles? Do you really believe the Catholic Church should be banned? I wonder what the ‘neutral observer’ would make of those views?
John a cara the prm has had its fair share of paedos,the catholic church was formed imo as a follow on from the multi deity and pagan beliefs,and all these were a form of control, the history of the catholic church is one of brutality,and exploitation,indeed it is also recorded that amongst the greatest orgies ever recorded some of these were held by popes, what the church may hay started out as and what it has developed into is not the same, it is now with the exception of a few nothing more than a great big paedophile ring and there is fuck all those in the top can do about it ,so yip a cara bann the buggers...
ReplyDeletejohn
ReplyDeletesodomy among adults or gays is NOT responsible for priests raping, bullying, abusing their power and authority to hurt wee boys. if it was gay sex wed have no problem coz priests would be fucking eachother instead of hurting kiddies.
i never besmerched anyone..just the unnecessary hype surrounding an unknown individual.
never mind respecting me john...get some for yourself, your arguments are junk recently.
John,
ReplyDelete'Why not just throw all Catholics to the lions?'
Indigestion I guess.
'Maybe learn from the English too, and put the heads of their priests on spikes!'
But not the spikes of school gates surely. Have they not frightened the kids enough already?
I don’t see a hatred of Catholicism as much as a contempt for it, its myths and officials.
Larry
ReplyDelete‘sodomy among adults or gays is NOT responsible for priests raping, bullying, abusing their power and authority to hurt wee boys.’
And that is the Gospel according to Larry. The fact that you capitalize a negative word does not constitute an argument.
‘i never besmerched anyone..just the unnecessary hype surrounding an unknown individual.’
Michaela Harte may be unknown to the likes of West Brits like you, but she was widely known and loved in Tyrone and GAA circles throughout the country. Even now you can’t resist belittling her. She is very much NOT ‘unknown’. Calling a poor young girl’s funeral arrangements ‘unnecessary hype'! Shame on you. (I learned that trick of capitalizing the word NOT to make my argument watertight).
‘ever mind respecting me john...get some for yourself, your arguments are junk recently.’
Only recently? I have yet to see you develop an argument at all. Other than ‘they are all paedos...' I am beginning to think you are Martin McGuinness.
Here is a challenge for you, Larry. Can you develop what you think are the reasons that the last 20 years or so has seen such an increase in child abuse within the Catholic Church?
yes john i can
ReplyDeletepeople like you refusing to criticise the hierarchy or face reality, trying to hide behind innocent gays or anything else and letting it go on uninterupted.
howz that???
Larry,
ReplyDelete'people like you refusing to criticise the hierarchy or face reality, trying to hide behind innocent gays or anything else and letting it go on uninterupted.
howz that???'
Dismal. That does not explain anything. Nor is one word of it true.
They say ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing’, I think you are safely out of danger!
PS
Isn’t ‘howz that!!!’ a cricket term? You ARE Martin McGuiness!
John dont want to "butt" in on your debate a cara ,but in relation to your question"why the last 20 years or so has seen such an increase in child abuse within the church?" well whats makes you think its just the last 20 years a cara, the fear and awe and indeed the influence the church held over the people has been on the decline,no longer tugging the forlocks to those men of god,the people are slowly but surely begining to realise that they have been fed gump by parasites and paedos,the men in dresses in the big houses are a dying breed thank god..they have raped and plundered enough over many generations..p.s just jesting about thanking god ,he is as bad ..
ReplyDeleteMarty,
ReplyDeleteBy the last 20 years, I mean that is when it is all being revealed. From what I can see there has been a miniscule undercurrent of homosexual predators throughout the centuries, which exploded in the sixties and seventies and would appear to have settled down again, back to the miniscule amount. (Not that any case is ever acceptable).
Can we really account for its rise by saying ‘it was always there? Isn’t it remarkable that such a vast reversal should occur within so small a space of time? There has to be another explanation than the ridiculous comment of ‘they are just a bunch of paedos …’ After all, if we blame the Catholic Church for them, we should blame marriage for the far greater number of paedos who are married.
John McGirr!! I knew you would still be around checking in because Anthony's blog is one of the best there is... Now then you really are lost in the vortex of being unable to let of institutionalised religion – in this case Catholicism.
ReplyDeleteMister McGirr Your psych session begins NOW: What is it that bothers you most of letting go of it? The whole construct is polluted – always was and always will be as history into the now shows. All the pedo activities were happening way back in history It just we live in modern times now and internet/media have give us insight as to the amount of the goingson. Would you miss your Latin Mass and would you NB feel a loss of identity or sense of spirituality? If so you are addicted to manmade constructs... Why can you not stand alone and have a belief in God... OK that’s your psychobabble session OVER sans fee.
I do realise it all rolled off you but there is always hope a chink of reality may slap you in the face. Just like my parents were - you are WILLINGLY lost in the land of saints and sinners and rituals and yes Father No Father and all Hail the wonders of Catholicism but it is romanticised nonsense...
Is always glaringly apparent to me why you never quote the teachings of Jesus because His words would slice through this whole dammed religious toxicity like a two edged sword...
Re ‘Damningly, the Church was more than supportive of priests like Greene going to the police to allege assault against those they claimed manhandled them. But woe betide the person who thought of going to the police to level assault accusations against priests’
JMcGirr - Now that is stock standard approach of the Catholic head honchos...and you can add in the pedo nuns as well. It is very sad John really that you insist on clinging to a toxic construct that never will free the people into truth/liberty nor spiritually either for that matter. Do you really see the teachings of Jesus/Yeshua in Catholicism? I don’t and i am a Christian and friends who are not Christian we all agree on one thing = The Catholic Church is vileness dressed up godliness. It is very difficult at times knowing ones life would have been/could have been so very different if the claws of Catholicism and their sickos had not gotten hold of one as a child. I am speaking for many not just self with that statement.
It is heartbreaking encountering individuals who destroyed their lives with addiction due to the sexual abuse at the hands of Catholic clergy and it is enraging that many will suicide slow format through addiction or just straightout top themselves. Their deaths won’t make the headlines and they will die fragmented - gutted in mind body and spirit. They will be thrown on the scrapheap of history forgotten – the Catholic Church hopes forgotten but they are not because me and many others are their voices We are the living thorns in the side of the Vatican one could say.
Not many of us could be deemed the picture of mental health from what was done on us but we are shrewd enough to hide the damage from others & survive the days our heads melted.... Success is the best revenge.
NB It is however unforgivable that any person identifying as Catholic continues to defend this construct and stay within it. I do believe the RC church is completely corrupted with the exception of a few good men and women naive enough to think its a good organisation to serve. Finally a link that may give u nightmares- you will be clutching yer rosary beads after reading this ahaha Do i believe all of it – nope but parts of it are insightful...
http://www.whale.to/b/knox_h.html
PS I know how the Jesuits and that icon freak Loyola got their kicks All their slavish obsessiveness with being ultra spiritual could only signify one outcome – madness & PERVERSION..SIgning off the ex catholic saint?maryhedgehog FTP & FTQ & F anyone who disagrees with me ahahaha
http://www.whale.to/b/knox_h.html
tis the stuff of nightmares
SMH,
ReplyDeleteyou rock! 'Vileness dressed up godliness' - how well put. Nice to see you back.
SMH
ReplyDeletewow...go getem floyd!!
That outburst is gonna take more than three hail Mary,s and two our fathers SMH, the legion of Mary have your details, you can expect to find the front of your gaff covered in the only virgin in the village statues,
ReplyDeleteNice to see you are still around, saint?maryhegehog. What a post, lol. Thank you for your concern and your free psychic session. However, I have nothing to let go. Why would I want to lose the ‘pearl of great price’, the ‘hidden treasure’ of the Holy Catholic Church of Rome, founded on the rock of Saint Peter, the only infallible bastion of truth, the only Ark, outside of which there is absolutely no salvation.
ReplyDeleteThat Church is both divine and human and its human element can give rise to any and all weaknesses, reflective of the age in which it is. Those failings are the failings of those within it, who betray their Lord, just as Judas did. That human element can at times almost eclipse the divine, but we know that our Lord has said, ‘those who hear you, hear me.’
It pains me to know that enemies of that Church have hurt people. It is far worse for a priest to abuse than it is for what is seen all too often in families, where poor children are brutalised by uncaring, sometimes drunken fathers, and yes, shudder the thought, sometimes mothers. But do we abolish the family? Or shouldn’t we rather constantly try to safeguard those within the family and make sure that parents are as prepared as possible for the duties they take on.
Abuse has occurred inside the Church, and a damn sight more of it has happened outside of the Church. Priests who have abused are in a tiny minority, compared to the rest of the population. Of course one single case of abuse is abominable and should never be tolerated.
But there is another factor at work here and that is that the Catholic Church has enemies who rest at nothing to attack it and destroy it. That is why we can have ‘piss Christs’ and human dung thrown at Holy Pictures whilst calling it art. Nothing is sacred to those who have abandoned God and apostatised from the fullness of the Christian religion. Before the Apostles died, there were those seeking to destroy the True Religion and through the ages we have every possible error, and every possible excuse being used to defy Christ’s Church. They hated and crucified Him and His followers and will continue to do so until the end of time. They will even attack it from within, in their insane desire to destroy the Christian Faith.
Why do I not quote Christ? Well one reason is, believe it or not, that I do not like to make ‘religious posts’ for the simple reason that there is no common ground in which to engage in debate. I much prefer to argue on reason, as opposed to Faith. That is why I had only intended in my post about Fr McVeigh to highlight the injustice of condemning a man without hearing his case. That seems to be pure natural justice to me, but that view doesn’t seem to be shared by many here. Yes, it is often difficult to avoid religious issues, but I prefer not to post things about Our Lord that will be twisted and turned by the likes of Larry’s school boy humour. It would seem to be casting pearls before swine.
I did check out that link. It always amazes me how each groups’ crackpots are so similar. I even find myself believing in many of the conspiracy theories, particularly when it is the Jews who are being blamed. After all, they were the first to reject Christ and have formed their identities for two thousand years on a rejection of His Truth.
So I shall stick to my rosary, my Latin Mass, my novenas in the sure and certain hope that all the boat is tossed on the waves, to leave is certain death, and our Blessed Lord will wake and calm the waves.
+ In Nomine Patris et Fillii et Spiritui Sancti, Amen +
PS,
What did Saint Ignatius ever do to invite your wrath?
John,
ReplyDeletestill laughing at that. 'Pearls before swine' oink oink!! That was funny. Are we that bad?!! You will be conducting an exorcism on us yet, Larry first.
'still laughing at that. 'Pearls before swine' oink oink!! That was funny. Are we that bad?!! You will be conducting an exorcism on us yet, Larry first.'
ReplyDeleteYou are not that bad, Anthony, just invincibly ignorant, :)
Looking at your new pic you could be the noble savage!
John
ReplyDelete‘Fortunately the Church is there to help us save our souls, and we are perfectly entitled to listen to it in its area of expertise and ignore those within it who had sold out politically.’
Are we not also perfectly entitled not to listen it? Or is that a choice to be denied us?
Moreover, if its expertise teaches that souls are damned if people join the IRA and used armed force what are we to assume? Does it not have expertise any more or does the power to decide on such matters rest with our own conscience? If you can choose to cherry pick why not the rest of us? Or are you going to decide for us? Which brings us to the heart of the matter – maybe it is not about god, just a love of authority, your own, and the boost it might be given if you can shout loudly enough about god. Wrong times, wrong society for that to work John. People don’t buy that anymore.
And does it all not sound a bit self serving in that it allows you to sate your own appetites for political violence or hatred of gay lifestyle/culture?
‘Even the men of 1981 dying on hunger strike, and sometimes with a deeper Christian view than those condemning them, would surely not have given their lives if they thought they were heading for a void.’
Plenty of people with no belief in afterlives give their lives or risk them for the better of humanity. Why would the men of 81 be any different? It seems to me that death is much easier to cope with when we know there are no devils to torment us or gods that want worshipped for eternity. We merely return to what we were before we were 200 years ago. Nobody has a bad memory of that. And if the god in the afterlife is the one that you promote, no thanks. I would want to delay death as long as possible before having to meet up with that barbaric entity. A god that would happily murder children because people in the community where they live are gay - are you serious?
john
ReplyDelete'Abuse has occurred inside the Church, and a damn sight more of it has happened outside of the Church. Priests who have abused are in a tiny minority, compared to the rest of the population. Of course one single case of abuse is abominable and should never be tolerated'.
the swine are at the top of the institution, the facilitators and their defenders and supporters.
AM,
ReplyDeleteOf course any one is entitled not to listen to the Church. We all have free will, so we are free to save our souls or to go to Hell, should we so choose.
The hierarchy of the Catholic Church has all but gone over to a new religion, which is why I can’t see why you don’t back them. They are invariably liberal, happy-clappy, hippy, drop out types who are relics of the 60’s and they are the ones who are guilty of not dealing with abuse. There are gay Masses, clown Masses, pagan Masses, feminist Masses in the big rainbow religion that they are creating today. So, I will stick to the Faith of our Fathers and the men of 1916. If St Joan of Arc can fight for France, if Crusaders can fight for the Holy Land, Christeros for Mexico, or (shock, horror) good Catholic men take on the assortment of Freemasons, Communists and Anarchists who threatened Spain, there is no possible reason that Irish patriots cannot fight for Ireland.
It is not cherry picking to say that, as we are bound to believe what we are taught in matters of Faith and morals. Whilst there are some applications in the field of morals to the question, they cannot preclude the right of the people of Ireland to hold allegiance to the Republic. Until very recently all Republicans held that the authority of government lay with them rather than Leinster House, Stormont or Westminster. Whilst there is one person prepared to uphold that, I am happy to continue to view it that way. But I am also always prepared to constantly review that in the light of the moral teaching of the Church. Unlike the Pope, when we have one, I am not infallible. Nor am I looking to win any popularity contests, or I would just jump on the anti-Catholic bandwagon that 95% of the people of Ireland can’t get on to quickly enough.
I have no appetite to sate for political violence, but I do believe that Ireland is entitled to freedom. Of course if enough people stood up and demanded it, they would be free, if they don’t then they won’t.
As for ‘gay lifestyle/culture’, well, doesn’t every normal person abhor what they do? If I wanted to put my food in my ear, I would think I had a serious problem, and I would rather some one helped me, even if only by pointing out that if I do that I will be damaging myself. If some one said, let him go ahead, leave him be, I would consider that man my enemy. If I didn’t care about ‘gays’ I would just ignore them. But, as I pointed out on another item, the Catholic Church forbids ALL sexual activity outside of that between a man and wife, open to the procreation of children. You seem to think I am only picking on ‘gays’.
You are free to disagree and encourage the homosexual element in and out of the Church to go out and sodomize, and many inside and outside the Catholic Church are doing just that. But look where it has led them. At least I know that had they listened and followed the Church, in its clear teachings on the sixth and ninth Commandments, then not one single child would ever have been abused. Unfortunately they didn’t listen, things are in a mess, but it doesn’t make sense to blame the Church that told them not to do those things.
Do you know of any Irish patriot who gave his life for Ireland who was an atheist?
John throw of the shackles those men in red dresses impose on your thoughts and don the red colander of the church of the FSM,where your thoughts are your own and hell is a qsf election broadcast,which of course we have the power to turn of unlike those who for generations preyed on the fears of the innocent,come on John that bad god,s gone,and Benny the bads a clown..
ReplyDeleteMarty,
ReplyDeleteIf ever I lose my faith and my reason, I shall be the first in line.
That is unless Alfie has a religion going! His one sounds like it might be more fun than wearing a colander.
John
ReplyDeleteThis is a blog rather than a republican blog. Most people who use it are republican but that does not make it a republican blog. People like Boyne Rover are more concerned that children are raped by priests and the Church cover it up. The red herring of policing is of much less interest to them. And in Ireland there is more chance of a child being raped by a priest than by a cop.
‘ prior to Vatican II there was a discipline which severely punished a deviant, (not to mention the fear of eternal damnation).’
It could not have been that disciplined if concerned priests advocated the Church procuring an island for its paedophiles, there was so many of them.
But are the gays misfits or are the Pharisees that want to hound them misfits? It seems that what is fitting into society better today than the ‘crucify them’ mob is gay culture.
I too laugh at the concept of eternal damnation. Think of the sadistic mind that thought that up and then told it to children who hadn't the capacity to work out it was all rubbish.
‘They revel in their filth and their bishop buddies are happy to shuffle them round to pastures new.’
We seem to be getting there.
John,
ReplyDelete"If ever I lose my faith and my reason, I shall be the first in line.
That is unless Alfie has a religion going! His one sounds like it might be more fun than wearing a colander."
I appreciate that, John, and you can rest assured that my religion would be very exacting. If there is a heaven, I imagine that I will be welcomed with the finest turkey dinner and that it will be served with a fruity Australian Grenache-Shiraz. Then I will have the opportunity to read/write for an hour or two with a classic French Sauvignon Blanc before retiring to my mastersuite and finding Peaches and Rene eagerly awaiting me!
F##k you Alfie all I get is some f##ker telling me god is broke, Anthony and yourself must be holders of the remote to eternal happiness..
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDelete‘Do you really think that the Catholic Church was founded to provide victims for paedophiles?’
Never has been my view.
‘Do you really believe the Catholic Church should be banned?’
Yes. The neutral observer would ask why a rape cartel should not be banned.
So the mass murder of children is preferable to a gay lifestyle? That morality is not for me. It is warped.
How are we to evaluate a morality that wants both gays and innocent children put to death other than as unadulterated evil?
‘But maybe that is at least partially because the secular authorities do not consider sodomy a crime any more.’
They regard the rape of children as a crime and still the Church did not hand the perps over.
‘I bet it would have put a stop to the homo brigade if they had been.’
This suggests that the IRA should have considered making gays ‘legitimate targets.’ What attitude would they have taken to gay volunteers on the blanket? And Roger Casement would be pronounced a traitor.
‘If priests do not sodomize, then they won't be sodomizing kids!’
Priests riding each other is not the problem. It is when they go for children that it becomes a problem. What we see here is the criminalisation of sexual behaviour on religious grounds. There is no more merit to that than criminalising it on the basis of what the members of a golf club believe. Club house rules might have their place in the club but not in society.
AM,
ReplyDelete'And Roger Casement would be pronounced a traitor.'
Surely you don't believe the outrageous forgeries put out to blacken his name?
They did the same with Wolfe Tone, alleging suicide on his part. A typical British tactic.
Of course if you do believe the lies about Roger casement, I can't see why you would be defending him, as the diaries reveal a predatory sodomite engaged in sexual tourism with boys. Just why you think it is okay that he might have done it, or Oscar Wilde did, yet wrong when clerical sodomites do it, I am not clear on.
Either way, he converted and became a Catholic before he died.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteI think John mistakes the explosion in discourse about clerical abuse with its actual existence. I think Alfie is probably closer to the mark. As you suggest the deference that fed into the silence is no more. Take a look at Archbishop Martin. I tend to like him and would listen to what he says even when I disagree with him. But I watched him last week dressed up in all bishop’s regalia trying to talk about issues of serious concern. But how do you take seriously somebody that presents himself in terms of appearance just like the tin man in the Wizard of Oz? I said to my wife ‘he might be talking sense but how are we to even hear what he says when we look at the way he looks?’
John,
It has always been there. All we are debating is the extent. It has been reported that 153 AD saw the first recorded case of clerical child abuse.
I find your analogies very weak. We don’t blame marriage for the paedos that our married any more than we blame cemeteries for the people that are buried in them. The Church unlike marriage is a living entity, thinking, planning and aiding and abetting in these crimes against Children. It is a repeated accomplice after the fact. It is on trial everywhere, has paid out billions in compensation. The case can be made – and has been – that its leadership should be tried for crimes against humanity. How could we bring marriage to court, charge it and find it guilty or innocent?
AM,
ReplyDelete‘I think John mistakes the explosion in discourse about clerical abuse with its actual existence.’
No. Traitors have always existed. But the rise in the homosexual movement and the post Vatican II abandonment of traditional morality meant that since the 1960s predatory homosexuals had all the opportunities they wanted with no penalties.
‘It has always been there. All we are debating is the extent. It has been reported that 153 AD saw the first recorded case of clerical child abuse.’
Yes, there has always been a minuscule amount of predatory homosexuality, but it was not institutionalised until the post Vatican II era. Prior to that those who engaged in it were dealt with mercilessly.
Enemies of the Church used it as cover. Those homosexuals who entered the priesthood to access their victims attempted to take the Church over from within. They will never succeed, because they are now being forced out. That is why the liberal Catholics so desperately want to undermine Catholic teaching. They are desperate to cover up the fact of the links between homosexuality and abuse. That link is rock solid, even if liberal bishops in the USA don’t want to admit it. L Podles is clear, R engels is clear, the whole of Catholic experience is that it is homosexual abuse coupled with a lack of decisive action to take on the pink brigade.
As the Deetman Commission concludes;
“…of the sexual abuse of boys, especially in institutions run by religious orders suggests that a homosexual subculture was and is a crucial factor for the abuse.
The REAL guilty people in this are those who accept and promote homosexuality. Those children have been abused because a small number of those within the Church have accepted sodomy as legitimate. Those who continue to do accept the legitimacy of the abomination of sodomy, in or out of the church, have a lot to answer for. Those who close their minds because of prejudice, refusing all the evidence, are almost as bad as the homosexual predators themselves.
PS, I would be interested in your views on the alleged activities of Roger Casement.
John,
ReplyDelete‘the only infallible bastion of truth’
Could you give us some evidence for such a strong assertion?
‘do we abolish the family?’
We might break up the family in which it is happening, much like is happening with the family of Tyler Whelan in Peterborough, and jail the family head or employ some other sanction against them. Should the family head be left unaccountable?
'Piss Christs' etc are in my view attention seeking actions. I am dubious about their value and what it is they seek to draw attention to. But that we have such freedoms in secular society is something to be recommended. It doesn’t mean that we have to exercise that freedom. I will not be found pissing on crucifixes or stabbing holy communion wafers but I don’t get excited one way or the other when it happens. I don’t piss on Man Utd tops or stab Utd emblems.’ Imagine somebody pissing on a Liverpool scarf and then me frothing at the mouth over it, and wishing them to be burned in hell. People would think me the problem rather than the piss artist.
The ‘true religion ‘,
Well, they all claim that.
‘their insane desire to destroy the Christian Faith.’
I see an insane desire at times to defend it no matter how heinous its crimes.
‘It always amazes me how each groups' crackpots are so similar.’
Would never have thought.
And what if Jews reject Christ? It would seem to be a human being’s right to reject Christ, Satan, Liverpool FC or whoever.
John,
ReplyDelete‘You are not that bad, Anthony, just invincibly ignorant’
I know. It comes with being fallible!
The noble savage has gone quite grey John.
John,
ReplyDeleteWe don’t worry about hell. It is too filled with priests to have any room for us.
‘The hierarchy of the Catholic Church has all but gone over to a new religion, which is why I can't see why you don't back them.’
So we both oppose the hierarchy but for different reasons.
‘good Catholic men take on the assortment of Freemasons,
Communists and Anarchists who threatened Spain, there is no possible reason that Irish patriots cannot fight for Ireland.’
But Irish patriots travelled to Spain to fight the Falange and all those Catholic fascists who backed Franco.
‘we are bound to believe what we are taught in matters of Faith and morals.’
Why bound? What possibly could people who cover up rape teach you who opposes rape and cover up about morals?
‘Whilst there are some applications in the field of morals to the question, they cannot preclude the right of the people of Ireland to hold allegiance to the Republic. ‘
So Catholic teaching on some areas of morality can be disregarded?
‘Until very recently all Republicans held that the authority of government lay with them rather than Leinster House, Stormont or Westminster.’
Fundamentalist ones perhaps but I have met quite a few republicans over the years and few if any were theological about the thing.
AM,
ReplyDelete‘We don’t worry about hell. It is too filled with priests to have any room for us.’
St. John Chrysostom said, "The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops!"
‘But Irish patriots travelled to Spain to fight the Falange and all those Catholic fascists who backed Franco.’
Some misled ones did, some fought for God and Spain.
‘So Catholic teaching on some areas of morality can be disregarded?’
No. I’m not sure why you think this.
“‘Until very recently all Republicans held that the authority of government lay with them rather than Leinster House, Stormont or Westminster.’”
‘Fundamentalist ones perhaps but I have met quite a few republicans over the years and few if any were theological about the thing.’
It is difficult to justify the Irish Republican cause if you accept the legitimacy of Leinster House, Stormont or Westminster. Maybe that explains why we are where we are.
Donegal Diversion
ReplyDelete‘Unlike the Pope, when we have one, I am not infallible.’
So the current pope is not your pope? You are as infallible as any fallible pope.
‘I have no appetite to sate for political violence, but I do believe that Ireland is entitled to freedom.’
But that must also mean freedom from you or me or our methods, whatever they might be. Or are people only to be free from what we say they can be free from? That hardly amounts to being free.
‘As for 'gay lifestyle/culture', well, doesn't every normal person abhor what they do?’
Not at all. I think I am normal and I don’t abhor what gays do. In fact it is none of my business how they conduct their business. Not being religious I have no desire to stick my nose into their business.
‘If I wanted to put my food in my ear, I would think I had a serious problem.’
The gay person would agree if you also stuck food up your backside.
A woman’s tongue in your ear might make you feel different.
‘ At least I know that had they listened and followed the Church, in its clear teachings on the sixth and ninth Commandments, then not one single child would ever have been abused.’
If good old god had intervened with a bit of the divino rather than sending the ma off on miracle tours not one child would have been raped.
If the Church command and control had thought more of children and less of rapist priests far fewer children would have fallen foul.
‘Unfortunately they didn't listen’
Ken Ham called his book something like that. But he believes the world is 6000 years old.
‘Do you know of any Irish patriot who gave his life for Ireland who was an atheist?’
Offhand, no.
The bishops gave O,Duffy,s departing blueshirts the nazi salute as the German ship flying the swastika sailed out of Dun Laoghaire harbour. John no wonder the floor of hell is covered with the skulls of bishops.
ReplyDeleteGood footage of O'Duffy here, with his compelling reasons for helping Spain against the Judaeo-Masonic forces of atheism, that martyred so many thousands.
ReplyDeletewww.bbcmotiongallery.com/gallery/clip/48050384_1400.do
John,
ReplyDelete‘outrageous forgeries’
It would be comforting I guess if that could be stood over and the Brits could be nailed. But the body of evidence is against that perspective.
‘The unequivocal and confident conclusion which the Giles Document Laboratory has reached is that each of the five documents collectively known as the Black Diaries is exclusively the work of Roger Casement's hand, without any reason to suspect either forgery or interpolation by any other hand. The Diaries are genuine throughout and in each instance.’
As for Wolfe Tone, it is my view based on what I have read is that he did attempt to end his own life before giving the British the pleasure of executing him. Hardly an ignoble action.
I didn’t defend Casement, merely pointed out to you the incongruity of your own position.
I more respect him for his work in the Congo than anything else.
That he was in your terms a ‘sodomite’ means nothing to me. It is like saying he prefers turnips to cabbages. It is a taste not a moral. If he was engaged in raping children he will get no sympathy here. The same for Wilde.
‘Either way, he converted and became a Catholic before he died.’
Makes him no better or worse. Hardly a mitigating factor
John,
ReplyDelete‘Traitors have always existed.’
From the minute their names were drawn in sand by JC.
‘Yes, there has always been a minuscule amount of predatory homosexuality, but it was not institutionalised until the post Vatican II era. Prior to that those who engaged in it were dealt with mercilessly.’
As were people who were burned and tortured for not disagreeing with the Church. The evidence would seem to suggest that rape has always been rampant in the Church and not merely since Vatican 2. As Tom Doyle says ‘Although clergy sexual abuse has been well documented from the earliest years of the Catholic Church the present era is unique.’ And he goes on to explain why it is unique in terms different from yourself.
‘Those homosexuals who entered the priesthood to access their victims’
Those child molesters who entered the priesthood to access their vicitms and who were protected when they did.
John the Cardinal of Austria molested an estimated 2000 children. The pope knew and did nothing. Why wouldn’t these predators go to the church? Be they homosexual or not they were afforded protection.
There may well be a homosexual subculture in the Church. But like elsewhere where such a culture exists it does not follow that children are raped. It was safe to rape children in the Church. The institution would protect its own. How many child rapes are carried out by gay men in the military or other institutions and then have it covered up on a global basis by the command and control? Nor does any of this address the abuse of girls by male priests. The problem is not one of homosexuals, it is one of raped children, boys and girls.
There is no consensus that homosexuality is evil. There is consensus that Church cover ups are evil.
The people who accept and promote homosexuality are guilty of nothing other than being human. The Church is guilty of being inhuman. Where homosexuals rape they should be treated exactly as heterosexuals who rape.
‘Those children have been abused because a small number of those within the Church have accepted sodomy as legitimate.’
They have been abused because the Church protected the abusers within its midst who valued power over children.
If a bunch (what is the collective noun for a number of paedo,s?.I suggest a church)were to move into a house together in a built up area ,would anyone object to the locals demanding that they be removed,so how come the catholic church has got away with it this long.these peddlers in myths have a captive audience in their thankfully diminishing congregations,the fact these churchs exist and the power they exercise is a magnet to these creeps,so it seems to me that disbanding the church takes away their ability to rape at will and get away with it it a lot of cases.
ReplyDeleteAM,
ReplyDelete'John the Cardinal of Austria molested an estimated 2000 children.'
But it was not all children, and it was not all non-consensual.
Czernin's investigation of Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer revealed that he had had sex with over 2,000 young men
Various Wikipedia articles also mention seminarians, monks etc, and mostly refer to ‘young men’ rather than children.
Does this make it okay? Of course not, but we have to call it as it is. Once again it is a highly placed homosexual abusing his position and preying on the vulnerable.
If political correctness insists that we cannot identify it for what it is, how can it be stopped.
It is like describing a bank robber and not being allowed to say he is black.
Donegal Diversion
ReplyDeleteMarty,
A Church of paedophiles. A great collective term.
John,
‘Some misled ones did, some fought for God and Spain.’
The abuse and overthrow of Spanish democracy by the fascists was a sorry episode in modern European history. One can never tell but I doubt any of the dead 1916 leaders would have gone to fight for the fascists. Then who knows? That is not to say that all was rosy in the republican side. Quite a lot of nefarious activity went on, much of it directed by the Soviet Union. Many of the republicans who went with the International Brigades did so to fight O’Duffy because of his anti republicanism in Ireland rather than out of love for the Spanish republican cause.
AM: 'So Catholic teaching on some areas of morality can be disregarded?'
JM ‘No. I'm not sure why you think this.’
Catholic teaching on the IRA’s armed struggle. You have disregarded that or pretend not to know what it is or when you acknowledge what it is you claim it is alright to ignore it.
‘It is difficult to justify the Irish Republican cause if you accept the legitimacy of Leinster House, Stormont or Westminster. Maybe that explains why we are where we are.’
Whether we like it or not the living people are sovereign. Their decisions might annoy me but they have more rights against me than I have against them.
AM,
ReplyDelete‘One can never tell but I doubt any of the dead 1916 leaders would have gone to fight for the fascists.’
Given that they were all Catholic patriots, I don’t see why they would not have fought alongside other Catholic patriots whose religion and country were under threat.
“AM: 'So Catholic teaching on some areas of morality can be disregarded?'”
“JM ‘No. I'm not sure why you think this.’”
‘Catholic teaching on the IRA’s armed struggle. You have disregarded that or pretend not to know what it is or when you acknowledge what it is you claim it is alright to ignore it.’
The Catholic Church teaches on Faith and Morals. As it believes that morality always has an objective element, it tends to give general principles rather than specify the exact behaviour in every given occasion. Some of the general principles involved here would be; a legitimate authority must always be obeyed, when not advocating evil; a Nation has the right to defend itself against aggressors; unjust laws are no laws at all.
That is why it is so important to have a legitimate authority. England has no right to authority in Ireland and so it cannot be found there. If you accept to Stormont or Leinster House as legitimate authorities then I cannot see, (but am open to persuasion), that there can be any legitimacy for an armed struggle, or even for civil disobedience.
The men of 1916 had to establish authority before the Rising would be legitimate. They did this, and the authority has been handed down to those who refuse to bow to unjust, illegal rule of Britain, Stormont or the Free State. While one man will continue to uphold the right for the freedom of Ireland from unjust aggression, then that resistance is permitted.
So, I am not disregarding any Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church does not teach anything specifically about the IRA, that I am aware of. Many clerics have given opinions, some which confuse the issue. They cannot overturn the principles, based on natural law, which allow unjust aggressors to be defended against in accordance with legitimate authority.
John,
ReplyDeleteWhere the cardinal of Austria was screwing with their consent people not below the age of consent it means nothing to me. The point I was making – and I have no reason to doubt your information - is that this serial abuser (in respect of all those below the age of consent and) was covered for by the Pope of the day. How could a man supposedly in some way guided by the holy spirit be guilty of such criminality? Many of these people at the top of the Church are criminals John. They cannot set moral laws for anyone.
‘It is like describing a bank robber and not being allowed to say he is black.’
Good point as it draws attention to the problem which begins when we imply or state the he robbed the bank because he was black.
John
ReplyDeleteThey were Irish patriots trying to build an Ireland that was inclusive of all, not some Catholic Ireland. Nor were they fascists. Why would Connolly want to fight alongside Nazi Germany in a bid to destroy Spanish democracy?
When we cut through your padding on the ‘the Catholic Church teaches on Faith and Morals’ we reach the crux which is that the Church has from the pope down condemned the use of IRA force. The use of force has long been central to Catholic morality. It deals with the fifth of the ten commandments you sometimes like to cite. Anybody claiming that the Church teaches IRA force is right is deluding themselves as no one else is deluded.
‘Some of the general principles involved here would be; a legitimate authority must always be obeyed, when not advocating evil; a Nation has the right to defend itself against aggressors.’
The Church regards the Dublin government as the legitimate authority in the South and that it must be obeyed. You want that government destroyed. The Church holds that the aggressors are the IRA. You choose to disregard this. And then you tell us that the Church must be obeyed.
‘If you accept to Stormont or Leinster House as legitimate authorities ...’
The Church does.
‘The men of 1916 had to establish authority before the Rising would be legitimate. They did this, and the authority has been handed down to those who refuse to bow to unjust, illegal rule of Britain, Stormont or the Free State.’
The men of 1916 don’t have the right to bind the people of today to their authority. The people of today have the right to decide their own authority. That we may not like what they have decided is secondary to their right to do so.
‘The Catholic Church does not teach anything specifically about the IRA, that I am aware of.’
Disingenuous.
Your argument is self serving cant. You want to tell the rest of us that there is some obligation to obey Catholic teaching when you pay no attention to it yourself. I see better now what attracts you to the Spanish fascists.
AM,
ReplyDelete‘Why would Connolly want to fight alongside Nazi Germany in a bid to destroy Spanish democracy?’
Why would any of the leaders of 1916 want to fight to eradicate the Catholic religion in Spain? Almost 10,000 bishops, monks, priests, and nuns were ruthlessly slaughtered by internationalists inspired by a hatred of the Spanish nation and the Catholic religion. When they had killed them all they dug up the remains out of convent graveyards to desecrate them further. I do not believe that any of those who gave their lives for God and country would support those who opposed both in Spain.
‘When we cut through your padding on the ‘the Catholic Church teaches on Faith and Morals’ we reach the crux which is that the Church has from the pope down condemned the use of IRA force.’
I am not aware of any condemnation of IRA actions from the Pope down. Maybe you could enlighten me. (Nothing after Pope Pius XII will be relevant to me, as they are of disputed authority).
‘The use of force has long been central (sic) to Catholic morality. It deals with the fifth of the ten commandments you sometimes like to cite.’
The use of force is not precluded in the face of unjust aggression.
‘Anybody claiming that the Church teaches IRA force is right is deluding themselves as no one else is deluded.’
It all hinges on legitimacy. If the Army has a claim to legitimacy, then its use of force can be right. If it has no claim to legitimacy, it would be harder to establish a basis on which it should operate.
“‘Some of the general principles involved here would be; a legitimate authority must always be obeyed, when not advocating evil; a Nation has the right to defend itself against aggressors.’”
‘The Church regards the Dublin government as the legitimate authority in the South and that it must be obeyed. You want that government destroyed.’
If it is true that the Church held that the Dublin Government was legitimate, that was while it laid claim to a 32 county State. As it no longer does that, it would open the question up again. It has certainly not recognised Britain’s right over the Six Counties. Political situations are very volatile, and that is why the Church, in her wisdom, puts forwards general principles rather than definitive judgements on most political situations. Rarely does it engage its authority on the legitimacy of a given State.
.
‘The men of 1916 don’t have the right to bind the people of today to their authority. The people of today have the right to decide their own authority. That we may not like what they have decided is secondary to their right to do so.’
Suicide is in breach of the Fifth Commandment. Therefore the people of Ireland do not have the right for a majority decision of National suicide.
“You want to tell the rest of us that there is some obligation to obey Catholic teaching when you pay no attention to it yourself. I see better now what attracts you to the Spanish fascists.”
As a member of the golf club, I have read the rules. I am happy that I pay full attention to what it teaches on this matter. I am not in the slightest attracted to Spanish fascists, however I am less attracted to amalgamations of murderous communists and anarchists which spurned the likes of La Pasionaria, whipped up into such hysteria that she killed a priest through biting into his jugular vein. That anti-clerical hysteria is a constant theme, together with incessant claims of immorality towards priests and nuns. It was championed by the Maria Monk lies, through the anti Catholic assaults in Mexico, Spain and is alive and well since the defection of large parts of the Catholic Church has confirmed the worst prejudices of its enemies. The irony is though, that it is those who have defected from the Church that have been responsible for the decades of filthy behaviour. They do not accept Catholic teaching so their deeds should not reflect on the Church but on those who equally do not accept it.
From Time Magazine may 1938
ReplyDeleteIn recent months the Irish Republican Army has terrorized England with many a bombing. Last week the Roman Catholic hierarchy of England and Wales unlimbered its biggest gun against the I.R. A.—threat of excommunication. In a statement read in all Catholic churches in Britain, the hierarchy declared: "Among the causes of the present unrest are workings of certain secret societies. The church sternly condemns all societies which plot against the church or state. They are guilty of crime against human society. Members of such secret societies incur excommunication."
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,761165,00.html#ixzz1xKcwjm2I
Can one apply for excommunication,or how much does it cost?
ReplyDeleteJohn
ReplyDelete‘Why would any of the leaders of 1916 want to fight to eradicate the Catholic religion in Spain?’
The Spanish Civil War was not about the eradication of the Catholic religion is Spain. While certainly some of those who went to war wanted rid of the clergy because of the very repressive role played by the Church in keeping people downtrodden, the war was much wider than that.
‘Almost 10,000 bishops, monks, priests, and nuns were ruthlessly slaughtered by internationalists inspired by a hatred of the Spanish nation and the Catholic religion.’
The figures have changed so much. It has veered from 20,000 down to 7,000. And it never includes those clerics killed by the fascists for resisting Franco, a source of irritation for some Catholic intellectuals who think the Church needs to fess up to its involvement in bringing the fascists to power in Spain.
‘When they had killed them all they dug up the remains out of convent graveyards to desecrate them further.‘
I think there was a the unpardonable case of one anarchist who danced with the corpse of a nun. But the Church has been caught out lying so often in relation to that era ...
‘I do not believe that any of those who gave their lives for God and country would support those who opposed both in Spain.’
Republicans who fought on the anti-treaty side went to Spain as part of the International Brigade and fought against pro treaty figures such as O’Duffy on the fascist side.
‘I am not aware of any condemnation of IRA actions from the Pope down. Maybe you could enlighten me. (Nothing after Pope Pius XII will be relevant to me, as they are of disputed authority).’
What would be the point of enlightening you if your cherry pick your popes?
‘The use of force is not precluded in the face of unjust aggression.’
Who defines aggression as unjust? We can’t live our lives according to you. From whom do we get moral clarity and guidance?
It all hinges on legitimacy. If the Army has a claim to legitimacy, then its use of force can be right. If it has no claim to legitimacy, it would be harder to establish a basis on which it should operate.’
And the Continuity IRA is I presume the legitimate army of Ireland?
‘a Nation has the right to defend itself against aggressors.'
But not the aggressors within it?
‘If it is true that the Church held that the Dublin Government was legitimate ... It has certainly not recognised Britain's right over the Six Counties.’
It has. Once it accepted the consent principle ...
‘the Church, in her wisdom ...'
invented Limbo. FFS
‘Rarely does it engage its authority on the legitimacy of a given State.’
Does it have embassies in states that it does not regard as legitimate?
.
‘Suicide is in breach of the Fifth Commandment. Therefore the people of Ireland do not have the right for a majority decision of National suicide.’
More religious rubbish.
‘I am not in the slightest attracted to Spanish fascists.’
You seem enthralled by them. Fascist movements attract fascistic personalties.
‘the likes of La Pasionaria, whipped up into such hysteria that she killed a priest through biting into his jugular vein.’
There was much wrong with her attitude but this is the first time I have been hit with this. Are you sure this is not one of the many myths pedalled by the fascists?
Are you aware that after Guernica was bombed one of the Church’s professors of theology in Spain denied that the Nazis were operating in Spain?
The call came from Maynooth"support the facists".
ReplyDeleteThe men of cloth had failed yet again.
When the bishops blessed the blueshirts in Dun Laoghaire.
As they sailed beneath the swastika to Spain...
They didnt kill enough of them!
Marty,
ReplyDeletemany priests have stood with the poor over the centuries but not the parcel of bastards in Spain who backed the fascists. I am thinking of the people in Latin America who were abandoned by the Vatican.
Franco was not particularly devout but he knew the Church was a valuable ally in any campaign to extablish fascism. Beevor wrote a great book on it which I read a year or two ago.