Last night in Belfast, public debate hosted by Comhdháil Poblachtach Ollscoil Banríona, Irish republican socialist student society:
Is the cure for Ireland's ills a 32 County Socialist Republic?
25th November, Belfast
Speakers (in this order)
Daithí Mac An Mhaistír - Éirígí
Eoin O’Broin - Sinn Féin and author of , ‘Sinn Féin and the Politics of Left Republicanism’
Brian Hanley - Author of ‘Lost Revolution- The story of the Official IRA and Workers Party’
Anthony McIntyre - Author of ‘Good Friday- The Death of Irish Republicanism’
Q & A session
Download here: http://www.archive.org/details/IsTheCureForIrelandsIllsA32CountySocialistRepublic
Right click save as: http://www.archive.org/download/IsTheCureForIrelandsIllsA32CountySocialistRepublic/SocialistRepublicDebate25.11.10.mp3
Equal Time for Free Thought, WBAI:
Radio Free Eireann’s Sandy Boyer, and former IRA prisoner, Anthony McIntyre
To inaugurate Equal Time for Freethought’s new time and day, and move to a one-hour format, we have invited Sandy Boyer, producer and host of WBAI’s Radio Free Eireann (which will now air two hours before us on a regular basis) to talk with us about religion, politics, and humanist ethics concerning Ireland (past and present), and the lives of the Irish outside of Ireland (including here in the USA).
Joining Sandy will be a favorite guest of his, former IRA prisoner turned journalist. Anthony McIntyre. McIntyre spent 18 years in Long Kesh, 4 years on the blanket and no-wash/no work protests which led to the hunger strikes of the 80s. He completed a PhD at Queens upon release from prison, and left the Republican Movement at the endorsement of the Good Friday Agreement, going on to become a journalist. He is the Co-founder of The Blanket, an online magazine that critically analyzed the Irish peace process, and author of the book, Good Friday: The Death of Irish Republicanism.
Download here: http://www.equaltimeforfreethought.org/2010/11/20/show-367-radio-free-eireanns-sandy-boyer-and-former-ira-prisoner-anthony-mcintyre/
Right click save as: http://www.equaltimeforfreethought.org/podpress_trac/web/549/0/101120_183001etff.mp3
Antony,
ReplyDeletelistening now, thanks for posting,
Rory
Listened to the speeches mo cara, I thought all spoke well, I cant understand how Eoin O Broin can really believe psf is a socialist party working to change the system from within,he is far to intelligent to be sold that pup,or is it that he knows which side his bread is buttered on,still an excellent download!
ReplyDeleteGo raibh míle maith agat ar thabhairt sin dóibh.Beidh éisteacht amárach.
ReplyDeleteExcellent and informative debate.
ReplyDeleteI never knew Liam Mellows lost his seat to a member of the Labour Party.
Rory
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteMy first thought was isn't the internet a wonderful thing!
I would have liked to have attended the debate but alas could not, but to be able to sit with a cup of tea and listen to what was a very interesting discussion was a great way to spend a saturday morning.
Thank you for posting it.
I particularly liked your analogy of the IMF as an economic Cromwell.
A Chairde,
ReplyDeleteI can take no credit for posting it! My wife put it up and I am pleased she did. Glad you seem to have liked it. It was a civil discussion where nobody went for the gratuitous put down of a fellow panelist. The audience was informed and inquisitive. Eoin O Broin in particular deserves credit for taking his argument to that type of audience. No matter how well behaved it was - and it was very much so - he could not have anticipated it. I am glad it was conducted as it was. Full praise to the organisers.
Got as far as all three speakers, yet to listen too the discussion.
ReplyDeleteSome excellent points raised on the British Left wing of which I have a modest insight.
Having been a past member of the Communist Party of Britain, active in its paper distribution and branch meetings I completely agree with the comments made on the sectarian squabbling therein.I have been active with Socialist Worker Party in recent times whilst being alligned to the Marxist/Leninist CPB in an act of trying to acheive some coalition whilst getting the Socialist Party on board at the same time.I can safely say if all these individauls actually got their act together and stopped tripping each other up they still wouldn't hit the target with the silverbullet they profess to have.
In my experience and opinion the only Communist party in Britain with any crudentials is the CPB - born outa the once 'legendary' CPGB...but alarmingly their knowledge an analysis of the Irish situation, particularly the 6 County situation, stretches as far as giving the nod too the Shinners...once we discredit the Irish Communist Party as having any sway in anything.
My biggest crit of Marxism is its overemphasis on macro economic solutions.My hope would be that Éirígí does indeed rise but learn from the past mistakes of socialist experiments that have demonstrated the emptyness of intellectual analysis overpescribed to the detriment of personal human reqirements of spirituality and morality.Addressing this Marxist flaw, in my veiw, will gaurd against the innevitable three temptations - Power, Wealth and Status - that have levelled previous socialist/communist entities.Cuba is an example of this reality now in it's recent further opening up to the influence of the Catholic Church, sadly a reality the British left wing foolishly refuse to adhere too and whilst claim too be inclusive of all religions their recent attacks on the Papal visit clearly demonstrate that the worn out "Opium of the people" phrase is clearly holding strong in their death throes as a political party.Anyone who subscribes to 'the daily paper of the left - the Morningstar' will see the regular obituaries as one by one the oldguard pass from this earth thus representitive of its dwindling ranks (I do often see letters appearing signed off from Clondalkin - where I worked and meetings in Belfast so I know the paper gets read o'er the foam).
ReplyDeleteMaith thú Anthony mo chara
ReplyDeleteI put aside a few hours today to listen and was impressed on a few levels, as the discussion seemed very good-natured and the ordinary voices speaking kept my interest.
I may be of the mark but it was refreshing listening to what is or could be good for the people rather than the usual what is best for a party food for thought though will skip the sausage metaphor that explained a lot as by the early 80s the shift was more towards the right.
Slan
Thanks for downloads (thanks to your wife that is!)
ReplyDeleteStefan,
ReplyDeleteinteresting thoughts.
The SWP has been to the fore of sectarian squabbling on the British Left. I know it maintains a continuous discourse about the wrongs of capitalism which helps enlighten people but it turns so many potential activists off. Its urge to censor is repellent. It is a major block on progress. Many question the purpose of an anti-Stalinist party that uses Stalinist methods.
The BCP seem to like Stick strategies and that is why they will give the nod to the Shinners. They have been like that in relation to Ireland for a long time.
Marxism I have always found good on the descriptive side of the equation. Once it comes to prescription it is a different matter. That would be my major problem with it. I think many of us still think in Marxian terms but are so despairing of the cults and sects. Eirigi is becoming more vocal in its own critique and seems to be the one republican group that all eyes are on in terms of something credible emerging from the wreckage. But it dos require more than Marxist soundbites. It will find, as it expands, the need to avoid alienating its audience while at the same time not reconciling itself to audience prejudice. A difficult enough task but that is the challenge.
I think the Left was right to oppose the visit of the pope to Britain. It would have been a cop out to do otherwise.
Was a good listen for sure. have sent links to friends... eirgi seems hip to it in a way but i trust no party line Good to hear amplified how the ideology of marxism/socialism can totally screw up when utilised and put into action. C is Corruption. Few seem to speak of that tho - Appeal to the ppl on Struggle Street - rope em in with promises of equity/equality... then totally decimate them with another dictatorship format..there has been so much suffering on the people/land that there was some gems shared birthed from experiential relay in the discussion. I cannot abide the crap about 'revolution' tho... Always makes me cringe... Stay home there aint no revolution - it is within nowhere else. Free your mind from delusions/propaganda and thats as good as it gets. It riles me greatly when ppl speak of revolution Get real half of Ireland cannot be arsed to support those willing to fight for their rights. History repeats with burbs of bullshit. Ramp up the word revolution and it may appeal to young lower socio economic lads but my god when they see/taste/know what violence is they will very quickly hate the world revolution. It is riddled with blood/death and sorrows. Now the economy is f..ked completely maybe that will negate apathy.
ReplyDeleteRe Catholicism it was good it was stabbed with reality pin but the bigger pin needs to be jabbed in the irish elite arses and the biggest pin in arse for the bearded one. He has cursed the next generation. PS anthony we irish worldwide r proud of u... but dont get a big head now :-) i dont agree with all of what you say/advocate but it sure as hell is right in so many ways.
Mackers, on what grounds should the Pope have been boycotted please do not say religious.
ReplyDeleteMy parents were both deeply religious and yet I have never witnessed people who practiced socialism they way they did, socialism in its purest form.
I know Marx practially predicted the melt down that we are witnessing now, however, I believe he underestimated the savage dog eat dog nature of capitalism.
Also, I believe Marx completely underestimated capitalisms ability to turn the beliefs of many socialist thinkers on their head.
Enjoyed the debate, just could not get a good level of volume to listen to the question and answer session.
Nuala,
ReplyDeleteI hardy think the pope should be boycotted on religious grounds. It would look silly if one group of people boycott another over the status of invisible men. My religion is truer than your religion sounds bunkum to me.
The pope should have been protested because of his role as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. That body was central to the cover ups that were so pervasive. I think a secular body like the Left would feel duty bound to register its dissent. But more so I feel it was an abdication of responsibility on the part of those with religious faith where they failed to protest his visit.
I don’t think people really practice socialism no matter how well intentioned they are. We live in a capitalist system which shapes our lives daily, from the clothes we wear, the movies we watch, to the food we eat. Socialism is a complex economic system and it is hard to practice it outside of that system or in the struggle to achieve it – and even there it is difficult. I think people like your parents practice a humanism where they try their very best to assist their fellow human beings. To me that is much better than the practitioners of socialism who worship systems and ignore people.
I think it there is no compelling reason why people who are religious cannot be socialists. Look at liberation theology for instance. It is not my view that we need to buy into every aspect of socialist philosophy including its atheism to be socialist.
One of the greatest difficulties faced by Marxism was the ability of capitalism to get itself out of crisis. It has done so time out of number. And like the sandwich board men in town predicting the end of the world and the second coming of Christ, Marxism has too often predicted capitalism’s collapse. This tends to make people sceptical about the ability of Marxism to deliver the goods.
Excellent debate, thanks for sharing. I suppose the problem traditionally with the left is the general public don't take them seriously and the lefts own habit of elitism and intellectual superiority, they are so far removed from reality of the working class they disappear up their own arseholes. It's often more about personalities than policies and whos in control. Also Behan's statement about the first item on the agenda of any Irish organization is the split could just as well be about the left.
ReplyDeleteGenerally éirígí are impressing me with some of their ideas and their on the ground campaigning, also I've got alot of respect for many of the individuals involved with them. It remains to be seen wether they will become a major force in Ireland or another brief page in Republican history (Republican Congress?). Interested to know why the IRPS had no one on that panel?
An old one but still relevant:
ReplyDeleteAn old revolutionary walks across the Brooklyn Bridge one day, and he sees man of a similar age standing on the edge, about to jump. He runs over and says: "Stop. Don't do it."
"Why shouldn't I?" he asked.
"Well, there's so much to live for!"
"I'm just depressed, I've been a Communist all my life and the revolution seems as far away as ever"
"You're a Communist?"
"Yeah, why?"
"I am as well!! Did you originally join the Communist Party USA?"
"Yeah"
"Me too! Did you join the pro-Trotsky Communist League of America in 1928, which later merged with the American Workers Party to form the Workers Party of America in 1934?"
"Yeah"
"Spooky, Me too! After the WPA was expelled from the Socialist Party of America in 1936 did you then go on to join the Socialist Workers Party USA and the fourth international?"
"I did actually…"
"Me too! In the 1940 dispute did you side with Cannon or Shachtman?"
"Cannon."
"Me too! In 1962 did you join Robertson's opposition caucus, the Revolutionary Tendency?"
"Yep."
" Holly shit! And of course like me you were expelled and went on to join the International Communist League (Spartacist)"
"Well that goes without saying!"
"In 1985 did you join the International Bolshevik Tendency who claimed that the Sparts have degenerated into an "obedience cult""
"No way!"
"Nah, me neither. In 1998 did you join the Internationalist Group after the Permanent Revolution Faction were expelled from the ICL?"
"Yeah! I can't believe this! Maybe I won't…."
"Die counterrevolutionary scum!". And he pushes him off the edge
On another note, Brian Hanley's history of the sticks, The Lost Revolution is well worth reading. Highly recommended as is his earlier book The IRA 36-46
ReplyDeleteMartyDownUnder,
ReplyDeleteI too was wondering why the IRSP was not represented at the debate.
Rory
Larry whos that ugly f##ker at the table I,m sure I saw that mugshot on wanted posters!only kidding Anthony please pass on my thanks to Carrie this was an excellent post I enjoyed the contributions,I would in all honesty lean towards Eirigi,s position,and I thought that Daithi Mac An Mhaistir spoke very well as did all who participated.once again thanks.
ReplyDeleteGraycrow,
ReplyDeleteWould like to think they at least got invited, that platform has been where they've stood since their foundation. Not speaking as a supporter or anything but they always seem to get the shit end of the stick. From being accused of being full of touts, whilst those accusing were run by them, to being written out of the history of the blanket protest and hunger strikes. And now the new kid on the block in the shape of éirígí is trying to steal their clothes.
Marty, I think Dr McIntyre actually looks quite revolutionary in that pose.
ReplyDeleteMackers, Albert was also given the sausage socialist lecture.
Only he never paid any attention, he lives by the theory your money is best spent on yourself.
Marty,
ReplyDelete"..I would in all honesty lean towards Eirigi,s position,and I thought that Daithi Mac An Mhaistir spoke very well.."
I found it interesting. He's articulate but the socialist message sounds off key and on the wrong side of the twentieth century. I thought Anthony's irreverent, but not disrespectful, realism provided a humourous balance to the revolutionary fervour.
Marty do you think that any modern political party can move from the margins without the promise of wealth creation?
Lá Naomh Andrew shona dhaoibh.
ReplyDeleteAM - Agreed, it wouldve been a cop out for the left to not oppose the Papal visit as they oppose religious input into state function.Marx was one Materialist theorist of many writing at a time of limited scientific and technological development compared to present day advances.Thus, whilst his insights being incredibly far forward and relevent in aspects of it's theory (reworked by Lenin etc) to todays world the clock has moved on throwing new light on this subject and other theorists of that particular era, for example Marx's penpal Darwin has now found his theory completely undermined by modern scientific breakthroughs.
Saint?MaryHedgehog - You mentioned a wake up call for the Church.The Holy Father has come forward in his new book to criticise the liberalisation of the Church since Vatican II.Evil is mankinds inheritence but it is clearly reaching new heights in our modern society.The Church is human and regretably evil infiltrates it.The sheanfhocal sais "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", and keeping in mind how the popular media present this as only a Church problem look at these figures gleaned from studies into sexual abuse...
McGee et al, 2003, The SAVI Report: Sexual Abuse and Violence in Ireland - of every ten thousand Irish children an average of two-thousand and seven-hundred (27%) suffer sexual abuse in secular society.
The 2009 Commission to Enquire Into Child Abuse - over a 34 year period more than 170,000 children passed through Industrial and Reformatory Schools operated by the Catholic Church. Of this number a total of 369 people made complaint to the Irish Child Abuse Commission during its nine-year investigation that they had suffered sexual abuse whilst at one of these institutions. The rate of prevalence is 0.2%.
AM - in your response to Nuala you raised the concept of Liberation Theory.My ex CP branch gained a Catholic preist turned Marxist who knows a thing or two about it.Tá mé féin doing the opposite from CP to RC we had some interesting dialogue through email.My take on it is the Scriptures, from Old Testament Prophets through to fulfillment in Christ, are a complete example of the great struggle.Castro's "great dialectic truth of humanity: imperialism, and, standing against it, socialism", is merely a modern macro economic analysis of this lacking the micro personal relevence, significance and missing the root of the problem thus underestimating the nature of the beast we take on.Any watering down of the Scriptures with this exposes it to failure inherent of Human evaluation.
Stefan,
ReplyDeletesomehow or other the posts came through as they did. I just put them all up. If you need to correct it feel free
Robert yip mo cara I for once totally agree as for wealth creation,I,m afraid staying afloat and clearing debts is going to be the main concern for any party in these islands and beyond for the forseeable future, but I see Mickeyboys back so no doubt we will get the full psf version on how to win elections,influence people,and create wealth,(without the aid of Columbian drug money!
ReplyDeleteThe first one of the three is fine...it came up as too big so I halved the post and stuck it up as two but evidently it went through anywase.I've tidyed up.Sorry Ive always got too much too say!!!
ReplyDeleteStefan,
ReplyDeleteeven when it says your post is too long it posts anyway.
Marty,
ReplyDelete"I see Mickeyboys back so no doubt we will get the full psf version on how to win elections,influence people,and create wealth,(without the aid of Columbian drug money"
Perhaps Gerry will expand on Narco-Economics during the Louth hustings?
Robert,he will for sure !coming to a house near you soon!!!
ReplyDeleteThats narco indoor gardening that is Robert, I think the boys have went from roll your own to grow your own,gives a whole new meaning to cottage industry dont you think!
ReplyDeletemarty just getting back on board i think u obviously didnt see mackers on the football pitch...now there was a 'shocking' sight.
ReplyDeleteany talk of revolution or marxism and u may as well pack ur bags and go home now...this country is full of fat selfish bastards...the rest just wanted to be fat selfish bastards...they thought their houses were getting them there the lazy way. All the anger is because the wheels fell off the gravy train.
personally im loving it. ask yourself would you fight for brian cowan or any dail TD or gerry sleazebag adams?
NO!! so wise up...this country, or should i say these people cant take care of themselves, they deserve no sympathy...fukem.
Jaysusss Larry glad to see you full of the joys of life mo cara,you know it could be worse you could be Mickeyboys partner,now how depressed can a person go.but I do know what you mean mo cara and I agree when I,m in a mood like that I just kick a priest!
ReplyDeleteTain Bo has been very quiet of late ,do you think he is suffering from Mickeyboy withdrawal symptons?
ReplyDeleteLarry,
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of vulnerable people losing their homes and their jobs, how can you say fcuk them?
Okay some gravy may have spilt out of the train, however, the fat cats and all the other money grabbing cowboys will ride into the sunset money intact.
It is ordinary people who are going to carry the can for this. Just like it will be the people who will be squeezed when the Brits want their bail out money back with interest.
Agree with you about the fat and the wannabe fat selfish bastards, I just feel sorry for the poor people.
Wonder will Gerry quote Jesus on the election trail. 'Ah the poor will always be with us.'
Fionnuala
ReplyDeletecant agree, the genuine 'poor' were not buying 300k houses and driving around all smug in brand new cars every january. i don't give a stuff for bollox's who sold a decent home to 'upgrade' and get 'up there'.
You want to see poverty and survival go to manila or latin america girl.
People here got what they needed and long may it continue, it will take a long long time to kill the greed gene in the Irish cute hoors, the bastards.
I can talk like this because after years teaching in Asia, my wife and i have undergone SPECIAL FORCES training in poor living. Being on the dole here is heaven and secure. We are in luxury. People here are livid coz there may be no new york xmas shopping this year.
i say again...fukem.
nothing personal.
Marty amego
ReplyDeletemy mrs has now concluded you are not posting jokes from a book, you are too quick shootin from the hip. I love that split second it takes for her mind goin from english to tagalogue and back to english before i get THATS BAD!!! i get a double larf. life is good.
you have a cult following in USA-Australia and half of the university barred from the library and half in 'detention'
keep them emails rolling!!!!!
Larry, you are talking nonsense I don't need to go to Manila or Asia to see poverty I only have to walk round some of my own streets.
ReplyDeleteMy partner and son, saw absolute poverty in Romania and Bulgaria when they helped deliver aid, they still talk about the horrors they witnessed in the orphanges and on the streets, however that does not mean you cannot have empathy for people who are struggling in your own country.
To be honest your views are actually quite conservative, 'think you have it bad go and look at X, Y or Z'.
At the beginning of the so called troubles, there were children in West Belfast suffering from diseases that were only found in the 'Third world'
Anyone on the dole in the South is not living it up and I know that for a fact. I have friends who had to leave their homes here and go and live there and they have literally never got their heads above water and I know they will be further crippled by all of this.
When Rowntree and Townsend measured poverty their gage was essentials based on necessity, not the conditions in other in other countries.
Apologies, when I said absolute poverty in the above post I should have said abject poverty.
ReplyDeleteMarty mo chara
ReplyDeleteI was absent with good reason I was away at a shins reeducation camp taking the advanced course in mickeyboys bollixology just in case the parasitical master worm wins in Louth if so I will post under Mickeyboy2.0, I have the language down to a fine art.
Onwards to failure
Slan
What would we do without Mickey’s wisdom
Was that rowntree townsend or rowntree mcintosh? essentials based on necessity?
ReplyDeleteFionnuala im on your side, the people you talk of were obviously not buying 300k houses or 450k 1 bed flats in ballymun..and thats true, i worked building them in 2006. And! the builders thought if ye couldn't afford it go elsewhere. Pure smug.
Based on necessity your average yank might need 5000zillion callories to climb up on his/her three seats in the diner.
ur average biafran doesn't have a diner. What is need or essential? A FEKIN DIET FOR ONE AND CALORIES AND PROTIEN FOR THE OTHER??? or just let the biafran eat the yank!
Quotes on belfast poverty pre troubles is simply NOT relevant to todays crisis in the Dail.
They were pigs at the trough and apart from the odd grunt and squeel they STILL refuse to lift their snout out of the swill to see the carnage all around.
The poverty you see in Belfast would appear to be in the memory.
No one here having previously 300k valued house [now valued at 150k ..thers the pain] were ever in a Romanian orphanage. May i suggest Fionnuala your evident decency, humanity and general all round generosity is in this instance missplaced.
The people im talking about were the blaguards who were charging telephone numbers for shite.
With all due respect.
oh i expect a transatlantic salvo hee hee bring it on baby!! gotta keep the craic goin.
BTW Fionnuala my wife says, thank you for the laugh about poverty oh aye and the history lesson....she has the utmost respect....for the welfare state.
Larry-
ReplyDeletejust read your SPECIAL FORCES training bit-
after i got my-self of the floor i
read the rest of your comment
sides still spliting.
Good man michaelhenry.
ReplyDeletethis site actually gives me more pleasure at times than...chocolate
better be careful what i write there the mrs now takin the odd peek over me shoulder.
I'm not sure you need a history lesson Larry, considering you appear to know everything about everything already. Glad you wife finds the sad state of the welfare amusing or was it just what I said?
ReplyDeleteRowntree, yep the chocolate people and the first person to carry out a comprehensive study of poverty in England.
Rich as he was he was altrusitic enough to believe that there was a standard that people should not live below.
Townsend, carried out a similiar study in the 70s you should read it sometime, maybe get another good laugh.
I think the conditions that people were living in pre-69 are particularly relevant. It was actually one of the flames that fuelled the Civil Rights. It was also a testimony to how hard faced the English and Unionists were in relation to the plight of the people and what it unleashed.
'Poor in Belfast a memory' clearly you have not read any of our home grown studies on poverty. The gap between rich and poor here in the North has widened, with those at the top getting richers and those at the bottom facing increasing deprivation.
I don't think my sympathy is misplaced, I find the thought of anyone losing the home awful.
But i'm sure you two will see the funny side!
Nula
ReplyDeleteEven though there are different levels of poverty they all equate to the same thing and western society has managed to create a micro class system for those who live in poverty should somehow feel comforted that they are better off than those who subsist beneath the so called poverty line.
It is simple to discriminate without intentionally doing so I agree with you that poverty no matter where on earth is a disease of corrupt governments who are immune to the suffering aided by those who foolishly believe they are invulnerable to the poverty trap.
Well said Nula
Larry "do not waste your time on the social questions,What the matter with the poor is poverty,what the matter with the rich is uselessness."George Bernard Shaw," dont piss down my back and tell me its raining"the old native American chief in Jose Walesthe outlaw
ReplyDeleteTain Bo mo cara I was going to suggest a dictionary on bolloxology then I thought lobotomy might be a better answer,works for Mickeyboy,the reason I suggest this is because I think that the bearded one will get that seat in Louth,I dont mean to f##k up you and Larry,s Christmas but thats the way I see it,
ReplyDeleteThanks, Carrie, for this posting, for those of us who were not able to hear Anthony and comrades in person. I liked the welcome Mackers wit, which leavened the rhetoric of three hours! "Left unity is like a black KKK. It won't happen." And the ethics: "Every paper cup" held by a Dublin beggar "tells a story," and how the 20 euro was dispensed a coin at a time in 12 m. 37 sec.
ReplyDeleteI was interested in the Noel Browne remark relating to SF's insularity. Care to expand?
Not sure how taking back the ill-gotten wealth will happen, as was argued by Daithi with expected force, will happen. As another speaker (not sure if Eoin or Brian) cautioned, this cannot be done so easily given the dispersion of wealth into shelters and banks worldwide. I think this highlights the challenges to a progressive vanguard determined to confiscate and redistribute the wealth amassed at the top.
The mob outside the Big House often succeeded (think of William Carleton's melodramatic but powerful story) in but burning down the house rather than regaining the gentry's treasures.
Michael
ReplyDeleteFortunate when you fell on the floor the extra absorbent padding in your cell saved that one cell in your cranium.
You should leave the witticisms to those who are naturally sharp. You remind me of that buck eegit Frank Carson who passed as a comedian ironically reminds me of your idols with his whiney catch phrase “it’s the way I tell’em” as it is the way they tell them.
Mickey, Hitler had the Brown Shirts the Shins have the Brown Tongues!
Fionnuala
ReplyDeletei dont dispute what you say about belfast 1969....fast forward 2010 we have 6000 ghost housing estates in the south. Total missmanagement. Sean Fitzpatrick the man who did more than most to get us where we are would have us believe he's living on 80 euro a month.
You and i are talking about different types of poverty. Real life and death poverty and oirish bellyaching brought on by a severe case of self pity originating in personal greed.
fukem.
the only way id laugh at those guys is like the oul joke..
Q wada do wen u see a wounded RUC man
A stop laughing and reload.
prime time rte/vatican 1
ReplyDelete9.30pm get yer bi-nok-u-lars onto that tonite.
Fionnuala u better have a cuppla box's of cleanex handy love.
May sa sumang-ayon, Larry. My better half is from Mindoro and she too enjoys has a good laugh at Martys jokes. This will be the first Xmas in a few years now haven't spent in Manila, always donate and attend a wee party for the street kids and to see the joy on their face would bring a tear to a glass eye.
ReplyDeleteMarty
ReplyDeleteOne can live and hope anyway I will follow the law of averages and it’s about time for the great one to tumble. You may well be right though I still prefer to think the people would tell Gerry put that in your pipe and go huff and puff back on the Falls road.
Mabuhay kabayan Martydownunder
ReplyDeletekorek kajan!!!
yes i gave a guy who was laying in a doorway my chicken and chips and when i looked back he was waking a wee boy about 3yrs old to give it to him. We went and bought them water as well.
I love those kids..playing and laughing with no shoes wearing rags. Always wanted to get a huge pot + make stew for hundreds. Thers a FANTASTIC joy helping them and the fun and joy in those faces are something that's with me every day.
As for dole-ites here whinging...
I WONT USE ANYMORE BAD LANGUAGE TODAY. enuff.
Larry, think you spelt Kleenex wrong LOVE!
ReplyDeleteMartydownunder,
ReplyDelete‘An old one but still relevant’
Great wit in that. This is one of the major problems with them. Left unity meetings are a great drain on human patience.
Saint?MaryHedgehog
The problem of Marxism is the Marxists. Persuading them to see that they are fallible would be a step in the right direction. But how?
I don’t trust revolutionaries. They crave state power and it becomes the new private property, the new capital so to speak. They refuse to democratise it because to do so would be to give up some of their private property. If Eirigi are to do well they need to spell out the detail better and display an awareness when and on what to compromise. As it currently is they are the one republican group that stands out in terms of having something useful to say. If they weren’t around, republicanism would be much more severely muted. But I am not confident.
I just have a viewpoint and if people take up on it well and good. If not, fine. Right or wrong, people should have the freedom to think what they want. At least you disagree with me without feeling the urge to join the living dead at the front door!
Larry,
ReplyDeleteIsn't just a pity all that empathy does not extend to your own people.
Some of those people you are calling 'dole-ites' are friends who found themselves living down there because they cannot return here.
They certainly do not shop in New York, due to refused access and no money. Find it very insulting that you can think of nothing better than writing smug comments about them.
Mickeyboy,Adams and Daniel O Donnell walking down the Falls rd,you have a gun but only 3 bullets in it what do you do,? yip thats it shoot Daniel O Donnell 3 times!!!!!
ReplyDeleteFionnuala
ReplyDeleteus heartless conservatives never have a need for kleenex..cheers for the 'headsup'
Tain bo-
ReplyDeleteold hitler killed of his brown shirts years before his war started
in the night of the long knifes
here- years after the wars end
those shins are still about.
Salamat Larry. Should be back there in the new year, I'll have a couple of San Migs for you! Don't know who's doing Santa for the weeans this year but hope they find someone. Think you're right about this in the south, entirely brought on by greed. But isn't it considerate of our Gerry majority of them never gave two frigs about us in the 6 counties but hes riding in like the lone ranger to save the day for them anyway!
ReplyDeleteMichael
ReplyDeleteHow’s your good self mucker?
Still plenty of jackboot neo Nazis running around waiting the rise of the fourth Reich I heard a wee bit a gossip that a certain master magician plans to invade the south with his storm troopers stretching the political lines on 3 fronts wreaks of Hitler’s failures.
Old Gerry killed of the PIRA sounding familiar but has kept his personal SS.
Fionnuala
ReplyDeletethink you are deliberately refusing to get my point. Anyone living on the breadline in the free state as a result of the war are in my heart always-unlike Adams and McGuinness + the armani union. Why can't your mates return home in 2010? Are you trapped in time?
Anyone paying 300k up for a house in the property frenzy ARE NOT my people....period. Fu fu fu fu flip me!! Do you have mates struggling in 300k gaffs? Is that it?
Martydownunder
kamusta sayo at iyong asawa.
I havent been there since 2006 and that hurts, love the place. But may be there june/july..wanna get wasted on a jumbo?
Larry it's alot closer for me now, only 8 hour flight from here thankfully. Good few living over there now, Bohol is a spectacular spot, dakilang tao
ReplyDeleteMartyDownUnder,
ReplyDeleteA Chara,
I am an IRP, I come from planet of the Irps. We are no f****** touts. Our people die for Ireland,
Rory
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ReplyDelete'Why can't your mates return home in 2010 are you trapped in time.'
ReplyDeleteI think you are trapped or strapped up in ignorance.
I think it has something to do with the fact they did not get the Queen's pardon!
Anyway why would they come back according to you they are basking in luxury?
Martydownunder
ReplyDeleteyou've my napper wrecked trying to geographically place you. Did you buy a wee gaff in Dubai ...shocker!! Or are you in the land 'downunder' methinks. Is it 8 hrs from Oz? ye must be in tazmania..transported wuz ya!!
My wifes buddy is from bohol..dont you go eating them chocolate hills.
sarap!!
greycrow
i was once in my youth..and distant memory, of ur clan...bit of advice...take a look at Ireland. Roger Casement got himself hung because he equated Irelands suffering with what he saw on diplomatic service in the Congo and Latin America. James Connolly shovelled horse shit off the streets in Edinburgh and wanted better things for all. DIE FOR IRELAND?? Be careful amego, you'll be sharing a room with michaelhenry shortly. The wrong people were being nutted in this country. Ahern has just retired at 55 yrs of age with over 300k handshake. He was in the Dail 34 yrs. I was never much good at sums...but thats right after leavin skool in my estimation. Minimum wage is gettin cut and the rest of us gunna work til 70 yrs old. OH AYE he wasn't in it for the money!! WHO YOU DYING FOR?
At university FF had all the 1916 stuff on display..i thought anyone but SF fair do's. IGNORE the lot of em my friend. Take a tip if i may be so bold. Get youself a new pair of boots, with WINGS on them, go see the world.
Garycrow,
ReplyDeleteAs I said the ones doing the accussing need to look at themselves first. Just after finishing Afterlives there and really the IRSP should feel rightly aggrieved about how they were treated during the hunger strike.
I'm a Dominic man and proud to say it, now there is someone who'd never have accepted the situation republicanism has found itself in or where we've ended up
I cant see for the love of me larry why you think this recession is funny I.ve had to lay of my cook and cleaner, DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS? I,ll have to do my own ffs!
ReplyDeleteLarry, I think sharing a cell with michaelhenry would be preferrable to sharing one with you! Seriously where do you get off?
ReplyDeleteMarty,
ReplyDeletei'm just basking in the Donegal winterwonderlad sun as it shines through my town centre bedroom window. My dole went into the bank on time as usual, [as i slept]and i've just paid my rent and a cuppla bills online. May have to have a dig at online shopping;well it's either that or get outa me bed. Wifey down makin chicken, onion and tomato omelette+chips for 'brunch'. Was no fight about who made it. Philippina women have no desire to be men. So no 'war at home' here.
Yes, we need a revolution. ASAP coz the tv's quite boring today actually. Still i have my laptop beside the bed and can peruse the mighty 'Quill' and world events. God someone save us from this!!
Fionnuala,
ReplyDeleteyour sounding like a sinner or paisley-ite. No argument but personal smite.
i detect you may be a champaigne socialist in a big house who likes to play at complaining-the oirish pass-time.
Larry are you telling you you have to actually do the typing for yourself geeeezzz whats the world coming to I have a Pole employed just for that!
ReplyDelete@ Stefan me eye caught ur comment... when was trawling thru Felt compelled to reply primarily cos i hate having scriptures quoted like a panacea at me – your he who is without sin etc. Papa ain't no Holy Father... Catholicism is a manmade religion utilising Christian scriptures and carving out a big kingdom $$$ and subjugation of the teeming minions. Mix it up with social concerns yay even more chains of control, fear, pseudo righteousness and utter neurosis... EX catholic here. Abuse is/was systemic. Re your stats – they mean jackshit due to many survivors of clergy abuse who will never come forward because of their entrenched shame/fear. Quite a few will top themselves Others will just plod on with imploded ptsd – drug addiction, alcoholism, suicide etc. or just live scrunched down f..,ked in the head lives silently suffering. Never ever defend a religion and construct that covers up, negates the truth. Compensation $ wise and weak feeble insincere apologies is all the Vatican will proffer. These hypocritical arsewipes depend on the 'decent godfearing Catholic' to stand with them in their hypocrisy. Who wants the Vatican blood money? not I. but good luck to those victims who grab it They EARNT that money bigtime paid for it dearly with their childhood mind and body. Re ur scripture quoting check the scriptures on the Pharisees... whitewashed tombs ='s If the cap fits wear it Vatican..... I hate all manmade religions which seek to subjugate/control. Difference between spiritual conviction and religiosity. Spiritual conviction equals you have a brain and use it/employ critical thinking Religion? You have a brain but seek solace in rhetoric, manmade constructs and dictates becos you be too gutless to hack reality in your face. I remain a christian albeit a cynical one but dont ever defend Catholicism NB You betray the ones abused as kids every time u do PS my favorite saint as a kid was lucy who had her eyes gouged out All for the Lord of course ah yes all for the Lord... The Vatican has gouged out many eyes and still does.. but wtf! a round of rosary and abit of ritual and a twist and turn of the scriptures and VIOLA Papa is God again. And now my preaching moment has been and is gone... sin-e
ReplyDeleteLarry,
ReplyDeleteI just find it surreal that people's misery can put a smile on some tossers face, but there we go.
One thing about James Connolly he might have shovelled shite, at least he never talked it.
Jaysussssss ST Mary Hedgehog I love it when your angry girl ,thats telling him and every bit of your post spot on good on ya girl,keep her lit as we say!
ReplyDeleteFionnuala is that your door bell i hear? its ok Jives will see to it.
ReplyDeleteHoping the housing market goes right thru the floor. Worth zero. Those greedy slimeballs remind me of the fact that before the famine 7% of farms were 30 acres of more. After the famine over 40% were 30acres or more and they were in Irish agents and opportunists greedy hands.
ReplyDeleteProperty speculators today are the same devils spawn greedy filth.
Hope the market goes thru the floor and all they're left with is big [ not houses ] DEBT. hahahahaha
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ReplyDeleteLarry a Chara,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the advice. I'd feel sorry for the motherf****** who had to share a room with me so I would.
Anyway, I read The Communist Manifesto when I was fifteen and it stuck. I am relentless and relatively fearless.
Rory
'Jives' is that the Southern version of Jeeves, who cares who is at your door or who answers it?
ReplyDeleteok Fionuala enough chain yanking.
ReplyDeletemust admit seriously enjoyed that wee burst.
many thanks for the spell checks.
oh dear mackers ur goalie just made a howwwwwwler!! 1-1
Larry a cara hate to remind you or anyone else but there never was a famine in Ireland ,we had a potatoe crop failure but there was still plenty of food, most of which was exported to England the records show that those years of the great hunger were the best for exports!
ReplyDeleteMarty i stand corrected, my oversight. Yes thousands of ships left with all manner of foods.
ReplyDeleteOur poorest people were wiped out, the cottier class and a new opportunistic middle class of Catholic Irish made good at their expense.
It was all about money, the English workin class didn't get it easy either.
The Irish were not innocent in the matter. O'Connell was uninterested with the issue. His £30,000 in his campaign chest was not dipped into.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnthony,
ReplyDeleteInteresting experiment regarding Dublin 'street beggars'. It must be a decade or more since visiting the city but my abidding memory has always been the 'beggars'. I have only experienced their wretched comparison on a visit to Praque. They always struck me as unfortunates living in a parallel place totally oblivious to the economic cycles of celtic tigers and global downturns
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ReplyDeleteRobert
ReplyDeletewe oirish are the best beggars in Europe at street and government level.
Every country the Brits were in like em or loath em, thrived, singapore, hong kong, Australia, New Zealand, Canada...IRELAND? ur havin a larf aren't ye!
As long as there's the dole and a boozer, we're set.
Larry, to say your a tosser is actually being complimentary.
ReplyDeleteLarry,
ReplyDelete"we oirish are the best beggars in Europe at street and government level."
And perhaps the most likeable talented and encourageable rogues that ever graced the planet.
"Every country the Brits were in like em or loath em, thrived.."
I admire you're honesty.
Mise Eire,
ReplyDelete"MO OGLAIGH CEANNGHAILTE
2010
There's 450,000 people unemployed"
I've been there - they need to get on their bikes - I did. It's hard going but hey the worlds a cruel place!
Robert, you admire his honesty, even if it is totally incorrect/ Few countries thrived under British misrule. India was more industrialised than they were when they initally went in, however, they soon scuppered that. They tied countries to them through trade and aid. The latter usually came about after they robbed the people blind.
ReplyDeleteIf they were so great how come they lost their hegemonic status to another arch robber the USA?
The indigenous people of those they invaded countries certainly did not florish under their elitist value system, they corrupted and destroyed more than they ever salvaged.
Robert easy on with the bike...Norman Tebbit was someone shouting?
ReplyDeleteTruth is truth Robert, my mrs wished the brits rather than spanish+yanks had colonised the Philippines. if anyone HAD TO THAT IS..
Fionnuala
ReplyDeletetosser? y thank you then for the compliment.
Fionnuala,
ReplyDelete"Robert, you admire his honesty, even if it is totally incorrect"
No Fionnuala, I admire his honesty because it is contrary to and flies in the face of what I had assumed and engenders censor from his peers.
Larry,
ReplyDelete"Robert easy on with the bike...Norman Tebbit was someone shouting?"
Someone shouting, while irritable, is no less credible because they are more audible. Capitalism requires a conscience but it also requires a call to 'smelling the coffee' of life's realities.
Fionnuala
ReplyDeleteyou remind me of blinkered little Englanders. Have you ventured beyond the M1 Roundabout in your life? We country bumpkins used to joke in jail that belfast men thought the world ended at the M1 roundabout at the bottom of the Grovenor Rd.
It's not a criminal offence to look beyond your own garden gate [or gates?] This country has a 90 yr history, that may be all it could manage. 'Paddy' needs to get his head out of his ass-hole and put the begging bowl away. Pull the horns and chest in and make an oportunity out of this mess.
We will never be a korea, japan, or Hongkong, but ffs we could try doin more than blarney and swindle!
MartyDown Under,
ReplyDelete"I'm a Dominic man and proud to say it, now there is someone who'd never have accepted the situation republicanism has found itself in or where we've ended up"
The detachment from the current reality would have been better posted under 'Deluded Militant In Melbourne'.
Given that Dominic's claim to fame was Mrs McMullan and Darkley I would seriously question the threat posed by the deceased revolutionary to the current 'process'. Like the weathter forecasters you need to get outside more often!
Robert
ReplyDeletecorruption reigns supreme whether in the old politbureau or the pentagon or banks, or council housing estates being privatised. It's a human condition. Social democracy within Europe is our best/only option. I have a feeling the Dail being an old colonial building was designed to inspire a feeling of superiority within those who dwelt there.
Our TDs have jobs in there up to 40yrs at a time. Get them ta fuk outa there, make it a museum and put the bastards into one of those big new glass buildings along the river and let them run this 3.5 million population for what it is, an average sized city 'UK standard'. [ ill await fionnualas interpretation of that remark with a bullet proof jacket ffs] And there's no need for a third of the TDs either!!
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ReplyDeleteRobert,
ReplyDeleteVery good though you've the city wrong and I'd say disillusioned and as for militant you said it not me and that's not what I was getting at. Militant republicanism at present is futile, republicanism even has been sacrificed at the altar of political expediency.
There'd be those that would say he was removed from the scene by your compatriots as he was seen by their masters as a potential threat to the impending peace process.
Larry, you have yet to outline how the Brits put any of these countries on their feet? Any country!
ReplyDeleteThey ruled the waves through plunder and corrupt puppet governments.
I would be genuinely interested in hearing a comprehensive run down on one of the countries that they improved.
oh dear did someone get naughty? deleted post..sorry i missed that.
ReplyDeleteTain Bo
ReplyDelete‘the discussion seemed very good-natured’
That was my reading of it. The knives probably came out after it was over!
MartyDownUnder
‘the lefts own habit of elitism and intellectual superiority’
Some of them take the view that they are at university and therefore others should defer to them. Others who teach at universities can often be worse.
‘éirígí … It remains to be seen whether they
will become a major force in Ireland or another brief page in
Republican history (Republican Congress?).’
Don’t see how they can break out of it.
‘Interested to know why the IRPS had no one on that panel?’
Lots were not on the panel – RSF, 32 CSM, RNU. I suppose it was a choice the organisers had to make. Doubt if there was any conspiracy behind it.
Martydownunder
ReplyDeletei have no doubt that S. Armagh when they stiffed mcglinchey were to a large part fazing out any future threat to what was mapped out. Thats what bothers me about this situation, xmaglen so obedient. Butif people are getting ten houses AT LEAST on the dole who needs the hassle of lowloaders...right??
Fionnuala,
ReplyDeletedelighted you're getting into debate instead of 'your a tosser wee lad!!!'
I don't approve of invasion or colonialism. I was stating that my wife observed that anywhere the british conquered and colonised seemed to fare much better than those nations which found themselves under spanish or American rule. [ on reflection i agree with her]
There's a difference between observation and condonement.
Of course the brits milked the place, thats why the railway they built across the indian sub continent [ which still functions today was built] coz donkeys horses mules and camels couldn't get the booty out fast enough. HOWEVER, and this may sting your little irelander values:
The irish and scots ran the civil service in the Raj. They did very well out of it too. And the irish were not ulster british irish...free staters abounded!!
Also in India there is a university system left by the brits that educates medical professionals to a standard as good as, if not BETTER, than UK health professions, and their graduates are accepted world wide.
If you go on a dublin bus tour fionnuala do ya see all them nice buildings around stevens green, the dail, old parlament/bank of ireland and so on...ive news for ye, the brits built em. And yes it was a handfull of prods with their boot on our necks, but in 90 yrs proud defiant paddy has built 6000 ghost housing estates and replaced a historical monument with a dirty great fukn needle. well done paddy. the struggle was worth it eh?
Fionnuala i have 2 questions,
do you think irish fat greedy pigs are preferable to english ones?
If you spent an hour getting ready to go out then noticed a stain on yer dress wud ye just horse on or change it?
This country needs major change if its not lost already. We need to learn as much from the world as we can...not close ourselves off from it girl!!
we can start with robert, a fellow celt.
Larry whos this major Change your talking about? and how did Bill Clinton get involved in this discussion? and lastly are you saying Robert wears a dress, well if so dont knock it till ya,ve tried it, oh and a p.s. you said in an earlier post that the women in your wifes part of the world are happy to be women correct me if I,m wrong mo cara but are a lot of the men there seem happy to be women to?
ReplyDeleteLarry, what do you mean by fare?
ReplyDeleteOkay, the modernized countries in first world terms.
They also impoverished those countires for generations to come. They crippled India through their divide and conquer mentality. India was actually a more industralised country than they were when they first went in, they destroyed the huge silk mills and their export industry.
They not only ruined the place their finishing touch was to tie them by trade and aid.
We give you 1million to build a bridge and we take 80 million back.
That was their story on a world scale, thieving and destroying then having the economy restructured to further impoverish people to pay off the debts.
They are still doing it here, telling people what they put in, no disclosures on what they take out.
In comparrison to other European states the Brits are way down the scale regarding medical care, welfare, education and pensions.
I think the majority of countries who had the misfortune to have them in would have fared a damn bit better without them.
They are faring better without the brits. my point is, we are the exception. it was a comparison of colonial experiences not a justification of them. Also this country needs to begin eccentuating the positive rather than complaining.
ReplyDeleteAfter WW2 the japs could have whined about the 2 nukes and their defeat.
instead they deleted pre 1945 history from school carriculums to give future generations a clear run.
Not suggesting we forget the 'famine' but are we maybe able to get the fuck over it?
kids poisoned in primary school here over that for life!!
ye pays yer money ye takes yer pick. we irish love a good yap, it hides our own shortcommings.
after all the evils, what are we doing about it? why should FF dump 40,000 people on other nations out of expediency while Ahern+co get 300k per year for getting us here?
Marty asian men who want to be women are also much 'easier' on the eye than those men who wanna be women here. Also, wadabout the she-men with skinheads and blue dock martin boots? aye ill settle for Asia mucker. Next time ye hit the M1 roundabout head off it at the 'Eastern' exit lol I RECOMMEND IT!!! it will change your life.
Larry-
ReplyDeletei know Fionnuala is giving you a hard time [ im cheering her every post ] so i might as well kick you
when your down-
Its not hard for the japanese to not teach there children about what went on pre 1945 because they lost their wars and would never fight on [ although japan paid for the 1991 gulf war in exchange for their war ships being allowed back on-to the worlds ocean's ]
what could they have said to there children- that there grandparents
generation were land-stealers who got their butts kicked by the yanks
[ most of the brits give up in 1941 ]
As you say Larry it was better for the japs to keep their past hidden
at schools.
Larry I,ll leave the tail end gunning to Mickeyboy,by the sound of things heading east may be a pain in the ass, now ffs I have Marie to give me grief and Nuala and the Armagh Amazons to assist her,the only thing in the world that will change my life is winning the Euro lotto,then I can bring Marie on a round the world trip,...looking for me!
ReplyDeleteIf we remove the english from the map i fear you guys would have nothing to get up for in the mornings.
ReplyDeleteFionnuala you still never answered my questions...
i assume a fat greedy irish pig is preferable in your view to an english one?
michael collins said if england were a republic we should have a monarchy
james connolly said burn everything british but their coal.
How sweet.
Michaelhenry you are sounding like an american + GB cheerleader in WW2 are you still cheering re' afghanistan and iraq.
im not refering to the right or wrong of combattants, im trying to discuss getting out of our irish self pitty and the yappy mindset.
the brits are just an excuse to do fuk all xcept live free and drink their dole.
during the 'famine' the brits accused the irish of growing potatoes because they were lazy people who grew lazy crops in lazy beds [ agricultural beds michaelhenry- they werent growin the spudz in the scratcher] and in 90 yrs the irish have done bogg all to disprove them.
NEXT GENERATION LINE UP FOR THE BOAT!!!
Now have a good bellyache then go cash yer giro there's a good revolutionary.
fionnuala...a wee heads-up for you love,
ReplyDeletethe 'war' aint coming back..wake-up sleeping beauty put on yer blue doc martin booties and go take a walk in the countryside. in the words of big 'O' "it's OOOOVER!!"
michaelhenry,
SF will 'maybe' get a wee final burst here shortly but people have reached a watershed. provo thuggery is redundant too, proper politics at long last may be on the horizon and coming in on us fast.
adios sucker.
Larry, 'a wee up for you love'
ReplyDeletethe war is back in part.
I'm just surprised that someone like yourself does not enter politics. Something about the way you speak actually reminds me of a branch man I once listened to in Castlereagh, a relative by any chance?
Larry, there is no point in continuing this conversation I could never agree with you and I see that very much as a plus.
ooh testy
ReplyDeletenow what hope world reconciliation/
enjoy your wee septic isolationist bubble.
AM
ReplyDelete'Some of them take the view that they are at university and therefore others should defer to them. Others who teach at universities can often be worse.
‘éirígí … It remains to be seen whether they
will become a major force in Ireland or another brief page in
Republican history (Republican Congress?).’
Don’t see how they can break out of it. '
Socialist rhetoric is just that rhetoric it means nothing to the people they claim to be defending. A former comrade from Twinbrook was an ardent believer in anarcho syndicalism now for the live of me I couldn't figure it out no matter how much he tried, obviously on to a real winner with that one.
Larry,
Not sure if your on the wind up half the time or what! Think if you asked the aboriginal people of Australia what they've gained from the Brit invasion you'd not get a very positive response!
marty beware the lotto it will sour the revolution. michaelhenry has a point, all talk no action wth the dissidents, maybe becoze anyone foolissh enough to engage them are getting post cards in maghaberry. better men went in than stayed out. no change there.
ReplyDeletebeware anyone who listens to the brach men...not a good policy lol.
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ReplyDeleteAnthony
ReplyDeleteThat is the nature of the beast politely smiling and sharpening the dagger at the same time.
martydownunder
ReplyDeleteim on the windup most of the time. nothing will make me take life too serious ever again. life is like myself ..too fukn short!
The fact that i can observe different things at different era's and from different perspectives does not in my opinion detract from who i am or where i'm from.
Some people are confined in their mind, 'straightjacketted'. I am happy to have wriggled out of mine, it took some doing.
I don't agree with SF because of how they treated their people and all the support base over the decades, trashed them in my opinion. Not even to mention the pain inflicted upon those Irish with a british disposition. For that alone, regardless of ageing or mellowing with age or even with perhaps water 'finding it's own level' politically [ a settlement] SF are unworthy. PERIOD.
The dissidents in my book are made up of touts who formed such a strong relationship with their handlers that separation proved too painful to contemplate. Another 4 guys away to jail in Dundalk, some fuker getting their commission no doubt..AGAIN??
It's a waste of time, but it should have been wound up with dignity not disgrace. McGuinness and Adams are the shame of Ireland.
I see residents from some of the ghost housing estates down here are thinking of standing in the next election.
NOW THERE'S POLITICS AT WORK.
Re' the Abbo's, i've been in Australia several times and encountered them in reality, not in airy fairy books. My kids were insulted without opening their mouth and they are like the nackers here. More yaps. A cousin said if the Abbo's had been put on tasmania since day one they'd still not have invented the fukn wheel. The only thing they ever 'built' was Aires rock..not a pyramid in sight.
Yes it's their country, are you going to shoot someone over that? They bloody didn't.
Same as here, market towns, fields instead of open pasture all came with anglicisation, but some people need to believe a gaelic wonderland was stolen from us. It wasn't. We are the only nation to have voluntarily given up it's language. Yes we were persecuted terribly, but sure O'Neill and co. never thought this place worth staybing in, their decendants have the best of land and vinyards in france and spain to this day.
The Irish have much to be proud of, being stuck in 1690 or 1798 isn't among them, in my opinion.
Larry "the dissidents" are imo going through a learning curve, unlike the pira and the brits who went through this together,leaving the brits years ahead of any emerging armed group,but I think if they manage to hold together,revise and rearrange their structures and tactics,instead of copycating the failed tactics of the prm,what will emerge will be a much more ruthless killing machine than ever the pira were,and Mickeyboy will have the body bags he so longs for,will it bring reunification I dont think so,but I certainly wouldnt write them of as a bunch of losers or wa##kers as Mickeyboy tends to refer to them as.this is a long way from over.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCan't believe I nearly read that nonsense twice!
ReplyDeletesorry for repeated posts there my pc keeps freezin...must be clogged up with all the shite-stiring im doin...that'll learn me..dont no if this will go thru or freeze again....stopp dancin and laughin fionnuala
ReplyDeletechrist marty, just read ur post. ive 2 sons 24 and 25 and ur post is a scary prospect.
ReplyDeletethere was a time id have prayed you were right, not now. Look at the politicians marty, fuk me i wouldn't let my budgie die for that. Think if that was gunna happen xmaglen would have blazed a trail..never materialised. ill just go to japan and teach asians to spake rite...in-ger-lit.
martydownunder
you're in the right place kiddo. with the right partner i suspect.
have ye been up to the rice terraces in Luzon? one of the worlds wonders.
Larry I havent been to Luzon but I,ve been chucked out of the Blue Moon in Aberdeen!
ReplyDeleteCrossmaglen or most of those in that area mo cara have just reverted back to type .ie. lining their own pockets.I think the border areas will be the main staging post of any serious return to armed conflict,including parts of S.Armagh.there is still serious players out there who think there is unfinished business.
ReplyDeletemarty ya bollox ive been blissfully takin the pisssh here for 2 days then you go and spook me.
ReplyDeletenumber one, if they gunna do it they need to work on a zero support base. Mass support aint there.
they need to get major league techno and do severe precision hits.
what do they do when the loyalists kick off? no way the brits wont kick start them again. a SF strategy of letting taigs get wasted wouldn't wash.
all in all an ugly vista
and just when
ReplyDeleteah waz gittin ooot an abooot aming ma ultar scooootch naybars tooo
learnt the fukn lingo anaaaaaal.
hey marty the magnificent 7 are on tg4
ReplyDeletemite get some ideas there 'amego'
i can only imagine the blue moon in aberdeen to be a most inhospitable ill mannerd establishment....how could they/
ReplyDeleteno doubt if you could remember you would enlighten us...
Larry,
ReplyDeleteThat's a huge generalization about the aboriginals and way off the mark. You see that's britains legacy to them they absolutely smashed them in to submission. It's not widely known, but they just didn't lie down and be conquered they resisted the invasion and failed horribly, what use is a boomerang against a gun! It was genocide in a massive scale and when they had them cowered they stole their children from them. Yes they were in many ways a primitive race but that didn't give the Brits (or any other colonizing bastard) the right to butcher them. Some of the worst dregs of society here are aborginals, blocked on the street corners on cheap piss or with a needle hanging out there arm. Definitely not all like that though, in fact I'm meeting up with a couple later.
Aye been to banaue rice terraces though they've been seriously damaged by rain in the last few years.
Stefan
ReplyDelete‘Darwin has now found his theory completely undermined by modern
scientific breakthroughs.’
What theory is that?
The figures you present would be seriously disputed – look at Geoffrey Robertson’s book. The church hierarchy was complicit in the systemic cover up of child rape. There is simply no way around that damning conclusion.
You will probably find that while this is not an atheist blog few of us would be influenced at all by scripture. Robert alone I think has any purchase on it.
Marty,
I would prefer the Eirigi position to SF’s, but on the night to my ears O Broin was the most compelling. Mac An Mhaistir spoke forthrightly enough but I think with Marxists there is more heat than light. Marxism in general demands such a leap of faith that it is almost like religion.
Nuala,
Had to laugh at Albert getting sausage socialism!! He was in good company.
Robert,
‘irreverent, but not disrespectful’
That is an accurate summing up.
martydownunder
ReplyDeletethat is the sad part of progress or the 'white mans burden' as they like to portray it, the evil that brought it. As in the industrial revolution. Anything good in the long run came from the ordinary people struggling against horror.
The brits and others should reflect upon that. They didn't turn up with a bunch of flowers. The red indians were a socially and morally superior people, hence thanksgiving. White europeans like the ulster scots presbiterians had greed and evil intent. How do you justify theft, the bibble is a good start.
Any abbo's i met it wasn't a pleasant experience which is sad because i left here full of political correctness. That learnt me.
Actually it's doubly sad, those guys drunk you described sound like they could be related to me and marty.
Regards to you and you mates, enjoy the evening. You are as i said..in the right place ya lucky bugger.
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ReplyDeletemise eire
ReplyDeletethat's shocking. I was in Dublin workin briefly for builders in 2006and was at Fatima mansions doing the new houses for those poeple. Boy did they deserve and appreciate them.
Ballymun too, doin student and private flats. You got to the stage at the bus stop you could tell people were a tad 'strange' then you realised after a while some of these guys/girls were on the 'up' or sruggling coming 'down'.
A pity the rest of the country wasn't as politically savvy as the 'mansions' people. Altho that's probably more down the place the felt they'd been designated in society, nowhere, rather than any political consideration.
What will Adams do in Dublin reserect the kneecappers? He'd be told to bog off i recon.
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ReplyDeleteMise Eire
ReplyDeletei saw his smug gob in donegal, he is already making speeches in his head in the dail. none of which will be about child rape, torpedofiles or the filthy antics of the SB/mi5 screwing people over.
Adams is heading south for personal ego gratification. People need to let him know he's not benefiting anyone. But dundalk was his best shot. I still pray he comes unstuck.
Forgive my grammar and spelling now and then, ive a cup of tae in my left hand whilst i type with the centre digit of my right hand, u know the one, its for gerry.
Mise eire if the bearded one and yer contry andwestern singer Mary who get elected to the Dail, they,ll be as usefull as tits on a bull!
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ReplyDeletechrist mise eire
ReplyDeletethat put the sarcasm outa me for the day.
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ReplyDeleteLarry,
ReplyDeletethe only comment removed was by the person who posted it
mackers
ReplyDeletei didnt think anything was removed. i removed two of my own yday becoz i double posted as a result of my pc freezin and having to re-type 3 times. but somehow 2 posts had gone thru.
The best laugh i got was fionnuala saying she couldn't believe she almost read that rubbish twice,had me rolling in the bed lovin it.
the 2nd was i missinterpreted 'wee spat' as a slight, before realising i was wrong.
no worries here Anthony. All is good.
Mise Eire
ReplyDeletedont know how long id survive there, tough as oul boots and tad scary. But a few of us hung around after work one time and ended up in the boozer at ballymun shops pretty late, the folks gave us nothin but good manners. Enjoyed it. That's MY PEOPLE.
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ReplyDeleteMise Eire
ReplyDeleteyou're into the realms of social, family, and heaven knows what kind of personal and other problems there.
Once again, im fully aware of how blessed my mrs and i are.
Determined to keep it simple like that too. If you're cozy and content, dont go lookin trouble, my motto.
What FF fail are best at is rezoning land and wrecking a nation. They only have pigs snouts not brains, and them wrapped in the flag.
Initially i'd have liked them up in the north just to see a unionist panic. But now i think it's time an aircraft carrier left Rathmullen with them and their extended families on it. That should put a dent in the 40,000 emigrants they want.
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ReplyDeleteAM - The recent intra cellular research on Protein folds and irreducable compexity (using the flagellum) show flaws in the current paradigm of evolutionary biology.
ReplyDeleteAlso micro/macro considerations of our modern knowledge and application of herbicides and genetic manipulation showing challenges the above 'consensus' by the reality of fitness costs in Genetic mutation.To quote Darwin,"If it can't be demonstrated that any complex organism existed by continous slight modifications then my theory will breakdown."
This has now demonstrated with genetic knockout experiments.
I've included some links to the research starting with the crit
http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/design2/article.html
and following into countercrit that explains the initial experiment and results.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/01/spinning_tales_about_the_bacte031141.html
I have work on Protein folds and fitness costs to genetic mutation, if you want I'll stick it up.I didn't wanna overwhelm with science.
If you have social research that shows child abuse is more prevelant in the Church than in Secular society I would be very interested in seeing this.
Saint?MaryHedgehog - I hope you continue to find forfillment in Christ necesery to your needs whatever way he is manifest in your life.Dia dhuit a bhean uasal.
Mise Eire - Quote "THE REVOLUTION.THE PEOPLE WHO READ THE BOOKS TELL THE PEOPLE WHO DONT READ THE BOOKS THAT THEY NEED A REVOLUTION.WHEN THEY ARE ALL DEAD THE SAME SHIT STARTS ALL OVER AGAIN"
ReplyDeleteQuestion...Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia???
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ReplyDeletei saw that Guevara Lynch connection a Derry gable wall, what'ts the story behing that? Aleprechaun granny?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't waste my time preaching to the masses here about the fruits of the soil; no offence lads 100% of the oul dolls prefer TESCO, EVERY LITTLE HELPS.
Besides, have you seen the weather? Not a brass monkey in sight.
I know many like to hark back to a mythical gaelic wonderland. It never existed. Strongbow entered the fray at Irish invitation. There was never a unified population under one leader, at best there were high kings or Ri with opposition.
ReplyDeleteIn the war of the three kingdoms Europe looked on aghast as the Irish fought among each other when the Normans were there for the taking.
Famines and emmigration are the Irish trademark. We do better abroad wether in other nations armed forces, police services or on the roads and railways. These hoggs cant look after 4 million people and have no shame in 2010 in telling 40,000 more to fuck off.
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ReplyDeleteMise Eire
ReplyDeleteabsoltely nothing wrong with it, i'm proud to have been a tiny little part of it. Swells my heart and brings a tear to the eye. Ask my mrs. But better to keep it real, if we're going to talk about medieval Irish history lets talk factual history, not mythology and fairy tales. Folklore is grand, but we shouldn't confuse or substitute it for reality or fact.
At home the Irish are always divided. Always have been.
Would love to know more about this Lynch connection, was it his mother?
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ReplyDeleteMise Eire - With recent anouncement by Chavez of the United Socialist Party of Venezuela’s (PSUV) political strategy for the next two years it doesn't look to me like the revolutions over yet.In his own words “This document is the base for a great social and national debate as a means of strengthening the party, forming patriotic alliances and achieving the great strategic victory of December 2012 to ensure the continuation of the democratic, pacific, and revolutionary process,”
ReplyDeleteNo empty words when you consider that only in July this year did Chavez take a giant symbolic leap in the direction of Latin American independence when his government and that of Ecuador conducted the first bilateral trade deal between two ALBA countries using the new trading currency, the Sucre, instead of the US dollar.
I have not read any of the material you suggest but your reading material is fairly well consolidated into two volumes.Ireland Her Own by T.A.Jackson and the Open Veins of Latin America by Eduardo Galeano, I thoroughly enjoyed both particularly Jacksons detailed account of Gaelic society from a structualist veiwpoint as oppossed to the mass of work addressing it from a more literary angle particularly when reading around Irish Mythological, Ultonian and Fenian Cycles.
An interesting little story I read a while back now (either in Macpherson's Creag Dhubh or Celtic Leagues Carn, can't remember which) was about Gillies geneology traced back to St Kilda and their wide feet being an adaption at gathering food on the sea rocks.I always put it down to a bar room adaption but hey ho.
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ReplyDeleteMise Eire
ReplyDeleteAs i suspected, there's a statue to a guy [can't remember his name] in Sligo who was a big shot in Peru. As i said earlier, 'paddy' did very well in other peoples forces. Couldn't organise a crap at home.
Quite an Irish community in Argentina and did the brits over from what i know. For that reason alone, my mrs and i intend to have a steak there. Check the place out. Maybe take a year teaching there. Money is crap, but if it doesn't motivate ye, what odds.
I'll have to investigate this granny a bit further. Wonder could i get a grant to do my dissertation on her!!
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ReplyDeleteMise eire,
ReplyDeleteThey still have a GAA club in Buenos Aires, the first game of hurling outside of Ireland was played there.
Heres an interesting link on Che's Irish roots
http://www.irlandeses.org/rohan.htm
Also covers the history of the Irish in Latin America
martydownunder
ReplyDeletejust read that wee article, great stuff.
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ReplyDeletemise eire
ReplyDeletehe sold his daughter Aife [correct spelling?] too. bit of a sociopathic bad loser 'our' Dermot.
Seems to be rampant yet that condition.
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ReplyDeletemise eire - I do not beleive ya man Fintan is in the book however the Irish Confederation is covered right enough.
ReplyDeleteWhen I talk of the Historical Cycles of the Irish I am not talking bout a book but a collection of writings.
Wat gives?
Good article today re this debate....
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/98480
Marty
ReplyDelete‘I think if they manage to hold together, revise and rearrange their structures and tactics, instead of copycating the failed tactics of the prm, what will emerge will be a much more ruthless killing machine than ever the pira were'
Such pessimism
Robert,
There are beggars in most places but this seemed pretty pronounced. I just don’t recall Dublin as being so crowded with them. I suppose it depends on where you go in the city.
‘and engenders censor from his peers.’
Not here it doesn’t!
Nuala,
I recall Andre Gunder Frank coming out with the theory of the development of underdevelopment. Countries like Britain would invade others and deliberately under develop them so that a relationship of dominance and dependence would ensue.
Larry,
‘S. Armagh when they stiffed McGlinchey were to a large part fazing out any future threat to what was mapped out.’
Interesting take on the matter. I was very friendly with Dominic in jail when he was there. I always allowed for the possibility that he was killed by the Provos. Quite a few over the years suspected it.
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ReplyDeleteFascinating subject.Latin American history is a huge influencing drive for me in my personal quest for a more just world.When I first read of the brutality of the likes of Francisco Pizarro and Columbus what immediately jumped out at me was what I had been taught in school was a clear reinterpretation of the facts to try and make us beleive the European Colonization of the "New World" was something positive feulling the Renaissance without even a single glance at the huge costs to Latin America.
ReplyDeleteLessons should be drawn from the model of raw material extraction without the placement of infrastructure through investment that occured at this time in Latin America to be applied to what is happening in Ireland now through the IMF.
I'm not so sure about that regarding Dominic, maybe I don't want to belief it but after reading Afterlives nothing surprises me. Bernadette has alluded to something similar in the past and she knew him better than most. Think she said that Adams had prior knowledge. Loyalists did carry out a previous attempt and I would be looking at them aided by Brit intelligence, though why no claim? Paul has said that he was about to start up a new group and it's a safe bet he wouldn't have agreed with the route SF was on. Reason enough to remove him from the scene.
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ReplyDeleteStefan,
ReplyDeleteI'm no biologist, but my understanding is that the key point in the whole debate about the alleged irreducible complexity (IC) of bacterial flagella is that other bacterial structures have been discovered to be homologous (ie. similar in a manner that suggest a common ancestor) to sub-parts of flagella. This suggests that flagella are modular structures and that each module evolved independently from earlier systems that had nothing to do with motility. The original claim of IC was that flagella had to be fully assembled before a selectable function exists, but evidence shows that a subset of parts of flagella can be fully functional, and thus favoured by natural selection. Now, IC advocates have backtracked, and argue that they never claimed that sub-parts of flagella had no separate function, but just that flagella could not have evolved in a step-wise manner. But the important point is that IC advocates have not proved either definition of IC with respect to flagella; indeed, though there is no true consensus among biologists on how exactly flagella evolved, cumulative evidence suggests that it did.
PS. Scott Minnich's experiments do prove that if you knock out parts of the flagellum, it loses its motility function; however, this ignores that parts of the system can have selectable functions other than motility, so it is not irreducibly complex.
PSS. The above is only my layman's understanding of the issue; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteA layman's understanding! It still had me bamboozled, lol
mackers
ReplyDeletedon't know anything factual on the mcglinchey slaying, but i remember rumours in the press that he and his group had annoyed a member of a prominent family from that area.
The way it was done and where would tip the ballance that direction in my view; i may be wrong obviously, but i doubt it.
Alfie - I am no Biologist either, I simply have a keen interest in this feild.Presuming we are talking about the toxin injection sub-system made up of 10 flagella proteins called the T3SS, it has been argued by leading biologists that the bacteria would've need propulsion long before the utilisation of the above structure.So, in a nutshell, it couldn't have been a step towards flagellum.The system is still IC even if sub-parts are able for co-option.I like the analogy of the Laptop power cord.If it so happened to power a toaster too does this render the Laptop non-IC.
ReplyDeleteMartyDownUnder,
ReplyDeleteHere's a good explanation of the issue:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13663-evolution-myths-the-bacterial-flagellum-is-irreducibly-complex.html
Again, I'm not a biologist and I've only read a handful of articles on the debate about the alleged "irreducible complexity" of bacterial flagella, but I have yet to be convinced that these structures are unlikely to have evolved.
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ReplyDeleteAnthony
ReplyDeleteIs this a record closing in on 200 comments on this article if so does it mean a celebration is in order and are you buying the booze.
Mise Eire
ReplyDelete'Id wager my 20 euro against your 20 that if you put 1 euro into the
cup of 20 Homeless People in Dublin that the following numbers would come up -Blanchardstown Crumlin Ballymun Drimnagh Finglas Clondalkin Ballyfermot Tallaght Coolock Inner City Flats Romanian
Traveller{Clarke McDonnagh O'Connor}’
Could well be the case. There seemed to be all sorts that I saw.
Stewy Mooney – what a very poignant way of depicting abject misery.
Michaelhenry
‘Larry- i know Fionnuala is giving you a hard time [ im cheering her every post ] so i might as well kick you when your down’
Brilliant. Nothing like joining in the spirit of the Quill! You are welcome here as long as you disagree with us!
Stefan,
ReplyDeleteIt is true that most biologists do not believe that the T3SS is an evolutionary precursor to flagella; however, the similarities between the two suggest that they are homologous, ie. that they have a common ancestor, a simpler primordial secretion system. Also other parts of flagella are homologous to other structures within bacteria cells - for example, the P-ring assembly chaperone protein, FlgA, is homologous to other assembly
proteins in bacteria, such as pilus chaperone proteins. So, as I understand it, the majority of the building blocks that make up flagella were present in bacteria cells before flagella appeared, but with functions other than motility. The hypothesis of how these building blocks came together is outlined in layman's terms here (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13663-evolution-myths-the-bacterial-flagellum-is-irreducibly-complex.html) and in more detail here (http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/flagellum.html#relationship). The hypothesis does not depend on the T3SS being an evolutionary precursor to flagella.
martydownunder
ReplyDeletein relation to Dominic, you can rest assured the loyalists were in no position to stalk him around Louth and take him out in Drogheda.
They take a 'nose bleed' south of Banbridge.
Alfie - Two great articles there, I enjoyed them both.To quote the first article...
ReplyDelete"Without a time machine it may never be possible to prove that this is how the flagellum evolved."
Defenders of Darwin will try to apply his theory to the above scenario but the article goes on to say...
"More generally, the fact that today's biologists cannot provide a definitive account of how every single structure or organism evolved proves nothing about design versus evolution. Biology is still in its infancy, and even when our understanding of life and its history is far more complete, our ability to reconstruct what happened billions of years ago will still be limited."
The above statement flies in the face of Darwin who quoted in the origin of species - "If it cannot be demonstrated that any complex organism existed by continuous slight modification then my theory will breakdown."
To quote more of the first article...
"However, what has been discovered so far - that flagella vary greatly and that at least some of the components and proteins of which they are made can carry out other useful functions in the cells - show that they are not 'irreducibly complex'."...is simply explained as co-option in nature.The total system of the flagellum is still IC.
Using the article from Evolution news "(Michael) Behe properly tests irreducible complexity by assessing the plausibility of the entire functional system to assemble in a step-wise fashion, even if sub-parts can have functions outside of the final system. The "leap" required by going from one functional sub-part to the entire functional system is indicative of the degree of irreducible complexity in a system.
I will read that second article properly the weekend.
Fascinating subject.
Stefan,
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking the time to post this.
Of course you can put your work up. Not sure we will all be able to follow it given its technical nature but it is your call.
I was not in any way persuaded of the merits of this case. It strikes me as having drawn on the work in the mid 90s of Behe which simply did not cut the mustard in the scientific community. I also notice that central to it is the thinking of Dembski. Even if we set aside his ultra right wing agenda and try to assess him on grounds of reason alone Dembski has proven to be very disingenuous in his presentation of the case, or maybe the fact that he ran away from the case, as was demonstrated in the Kitzmiller hearing where the testimony of Barbara Forrest was set to destroy him.
I have no doubt that there must be flaws in ‘the current paradigm of evolutionary biology.’ To suggest otherwise would be to believe in a state of perfection. But the imperfections have done nothing to counter the thrust of evolutionary biology and Darwinism which is that evolution is a fact of life.
Where you quote Darwin - ‘If it can't be demonstrated that any complex organism existed by continuous slight modifications then my theory will breakdown’ – the evidence is still very much with Darwin. To your absolute credit you were more than willing to allow us access to that via Miller.
The irreducible complexity argument is an old one. Where fossils could not be discovered the same defence of complex design was proffered. The design being so complex that it is irreducible. The reason it appears to exist in its current form is to give legs to the Intelligent Design perspective. But it is strange that evidence for god and intelligent design is to be found in e coli bacteria. There is nothing yet that has not evolved. The claim that it has not evolved naturally but needs a designer to move it is more a religious argument than a scientific one. The judge in the Kitzmiller case made that much clear.
On the question of abuse I don’t spend my time priest-chasing through social research studies! I think child abuse is terrible regardless of where it occurs. Where secularists do it they are no better than priests who do likewise. I think what sees the priests done for is that they have claimed to be the moral standard bearer for the rest of us.
ReplyDeleteThat said I would like to cite from Geoffrey Robertson’s The Case of the Pope.
‘Faced with this unfolding crisis, it is to the credit of the US Catholic Bishops Conference that in 2002 it decided to commission an objective study of the problem. It retained a groups of respected criminologists from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York to conduct a comprehensive review and their report, published in 2004, drew some very disturbing conclusions. It recorded that since 1950 no fewer than 10,667 individuals had made plausible allegatuiomns against 4, 392 priests – 4.3 per cent of those active in the period ... but on any view, the falsity of Ratzinger’s claim of ‘less than one per cent has been conclusively demonstrated.’
I think it is of secondary importance whether priests or non-priests are the abusers. Where the Catholic Church is concerned it is the criminal conspiracy from the top down that has raised eyebrows and given rise to serious concerns. Here is a major societal institution that had a position of trust. Its staff abused that trust, raped at will and and were covered for by their superiors who were more concerned with protecting the institution that bestowed status and social power on them than they were concerned with protecting raped children.
After further reading, I believe that there is an ambiguity in my usage of the term "Type III Secretion System" or "T3SS". The flagellar protein export system in the basal body (the part inside the bacterial cell wall) of flagella is now considered to be a subclass of the T3SS, so some authors now actually refer to it as a T3SS, or more precisely, the flagellar T3SS. However, this is not the same thing as other non-flagellar Type III Secretion Systems (NF-T3SS), such as the injectisome in disease-causing bacteria like Salmonella, which emerged later than flagella. But it is the striking similarity in structure and composition between NF-T3SSs and the flagellar protein export system that suggests they have a common ancestor; it also shows that a subsystem of the flagellum could have a secretion function. Thus, the flagellum could have evolved from a primordial T3SS (NOT an injectisome) and then subsequently, NF-T3SSs such as injectisomes evolved either from flagella themselves or from the primordial secretory system.
ReplyDeleteAs I said before, there is no true consensus on the exact evolutionary path of flagella and NF-T3SSs, but it is widely accepted that they evolved from a common ancentral structure. For anyone who hasn't fallen asleep by this stage and wants to find out more about this debate, here is a link to a pdf of a New Scientist article that outlines the issue:
http://files.myopera.com/Jaybro/files/Flagellum.pdf
Also, here is a discussion about the article on the science blog The Panda's Thumb:
http://files.myopera.com/Jaybro/files/Flagellum.pdf
Stefan,
ReplyDeleteGlad you enjoyed the articles. The second one is very technical and I don't pretend to understand it all. Indeed, I admit to feeling out of my depth in this discussion. However, I understand that the author of the second piece, Nick Matzke, puts forward a model for the evolution of flagella and, if I remember correctly, gives some ways in which it can be disproved or confirmed. So far, I think the emerging evidence has favoured his hypothesis, with more homologies being discovered between the various parts of flagella and other parts of bacterial cells. This is exactly what you'd expect if flagella evolved, whereas if they were intelligently designed in order to be irreducibly complex, you might expect them to made up of parts unique to flagella themselves. You say that the fact that most of the building blocks of the flagellum are found within the bacterial cell is merely "co-option in Nature", but, as far as I understand the term "co-option", it is an evolutionary concept that explains how structures can adapt to perform new functions. So if the building blocks of flagella were present in bacteria beforehand with selectable functions, then they could have come together to form flagella in a gradual, stepwise set of co-options (such as the model outlined by Matzke).
Darwin is not the last word on evolutionary theory. Like any branch of science, it is constantly being updated. However, there is a preponderance of evidence for evolution, so in order to disprove it, someone would have to show that at least one organism or structure could not have evolved or would be extremely unlikely to have evolved. I don't think this has been done.
It is true that, without a time machine, we cannot know for certain how every organism evolved; however, we can come up with theories of evolutionary pathways that make predictions about homologies between and within organisms and about the fossil record (all though the latter will certainly be fragmentary). Thus, the theories can be tested, and the most plausible ones retained.
Like Anthony, I find it a bit strange that God would leave all this evidence for evolution hanging around, only to stick his calling card in the tail of a microbe.
whilst driving down the road near Banbridge on day my mate pointed to a huge house and said 'a paedophile lives in there' i asked how ta 'F' he knew that....he said, it's the parochial house!!
ReplyDeletethere now 99...200